230. Britain’s Last Colony: Trump, Brexit, and Russia-Ukraine (Ep 2)

Summary

Empire Podcast Episode 230: Britain’s Last Colony: Trump, Brexit, and Russia-Ukraine

Release Date: February 17, 2025

Hosts: William Dalrymple and Anita Anand
Guest: Philippe Sands, Author, Broadcaster, Human Rights Lawyer

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1. Introduction

In Episode 230 of Empire, hosts Anita Anand and William Dalrymple delve into the complex history and present-day implications of the Chagos Islands, focusing on their strategic importance and the ongoing disputes surrounding them. The episode features an in-depth conversation with Philippe Sands, a renowned human rights lawyer, who provides expert insights into the legal and geopolitical intricacies of the situation.

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2. The Chagos Islands: Historical Context

Anita Anand opens the discussion by highlighting the emotional and human aspects of the Chagos Islands' history, as recounted by Philippe Sands.

"Dogs being abandoned and swimming after their owners, people being separated by virtue of the color of their skin. Whether they'd be over on the deck or under the deck. I Mean, these are things that are unthinkable and they're going on that recently."
[02:19] - Philippe Sands

Sands explains that the Chagossian community was forcibly removed from their homeland in the late 1960s and early 1970s to make way for a military base. Many of these displaced individuals ended up in Crawley, UK, where a strong Chagossian community persists today.

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3. Legal Battles and International Law

The conversation shifts to the lengthy legal struggle for the Chagossians' right to return. Sands details the series of court cases led by Olivier Bancoo, which culminated in a landmark decision by the International Court of Justice (ICJ).

"The International Court of Justice ruled without dissent in an advisory opinion that Mauritius has sovereignty over the Chagos Archipelago, not the United Kingdom, and orders the United Kingdom to end its unlawful occupation of the Chagos Archipelago immediately."
[16:12] - Philippe Sands

Anand and Dalrymple explore the challenges faced in these legal battles, including political maneuvers and shifts in international support, particularly influenced by events like Brexit and the Trump administration.

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4. Impact of Brexit and the Trump Administration

Sands connects the dots between Brexit and the outcome of the Chagos Islands dispute. He posits that Brexit's effect on the UK's standing in the UN was pivotal in garnering the necessary support for Mauritius.

"Brexit... support for the United Kingdom at the UN evaporates in an instance."
[16:36] - Philippe Sands

Furthermore, the episode examines how the Trump administration's policies intersected with ongoing international conflicts, notably the Russia-Ukraine war, affecting the UK's strategic decisions regarding Diego Garcia, the key military base in the Chagos Archipelago.

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5. Geopolitical Implications

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the strategic importance of Diego Garcia, the military base established on the island. Sands emphasizes its role in global military operations, linking it to events such as the bombing of Baghdad and the practice of extraordinary rendition.

"The bombing of Baghdad occurred on the first days of the war from planes that left from Diego Garcia, but in the next period, some of the flights that participated in what is known as extraordinary rendition... stopped at Diego Garcia."
[07:14] - Philippe Sands

The podcast also touches upon the "String of Pearls" strategy by China, highlighting the naval competition in the Indian Ocean and how the outcome of the Chagos dispute could influence broader geopolitical dynamics, especially concerning India and China relations.

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6. Personal Experiences and Anecdotes

Philippe Sands shares personal anecdotes from his visits to the Chagos Archipelago, providing a human perspective to the geopolitical and legal narratives.

"We were followed by a British patrol vessel... It was the first Mauritian trip and we arrived at Paris Banyas... It was incredibly moving because Lisby points to the place where she was born."
[34:14] - Philippe Sands

These narratives underscore the emotional stakes for the displaced Chagossian community and the profound impact of international politics on individual lives.

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7. Current Status and Future Prospects

As the episode approaches its conclusion, Sands outlines the current status of the Chagos Islands dispute. An agreement between Mauritius and the United Kingdom has been negotiated, aiming to resolve sovereignty issues while maintaining the strategic Diego Garcia base under American management.

"The agreement... provides for sovereignty of Mauritius, the long-term security of the base Diego Garcia run by the British and the Americans, the return of the Chagossians, and the creation of a lawful marine protected area."
[31:55] - Philippe Sands

However, the finalization of this treaty is pending approval from the Trump administration, leaving the resolution of the dispute in a state of uncertainty.

---

8. Conclusion

Anita Anand and William Dalrymple wrap up the episode by reflecting on the interconnectedness of seemingly isolated events and their far-reaching consequences. They underscore the importance of international law and geopolitical strategy in shaping the destiny of nations and communities.

"A lot of people are saying this, but one thing I find significant is he himself has not uttered the words, I don't want this treaty to be ratified... his eyes said, yes, Anita, thou art wise."
[39:17] - Anita Anand

The episode leaves listeners contemplating the delicate balance between national security, international diplomacy, and human rights, highlighting the enduring legacy of imperialism in today's global landscape.

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Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "The bombing of Baghdad occurred on the first days of the war from planes that left from Diego Garcia..."
  [07:14] - Philippe Sands

• "The International Court of Justice ruled without dissent in an advisory opinion that Mauritius has sovereignty over the Chagos Archipelago..."
  [16:12] - Philippe Sands

• "Brexit... support for the United Kingdom at the UN evaporates in an instance."
  [16:36] - Philippe Sands

• "We were followed by a British patrol vessel... It was incredibly moving..."
  [34:14] - Philippe Sands

• "A lot of people are saying this... his eyes said, yes, Anita, thou art wise."
  [39:17] - Anita Anand

---

This episode of Empire provides a comprehensive exploration of the Chagos Islands' historical displacement, legal battles, and its strategic significance in contemporary geopolitics. Through Philippe Sands' expert analysis, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of how imperial legacies continue to influence present-day international relations.

Transcript

[Anita Anand]

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[Anita Anand]

Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Anand.

[William Drimple]

And me, William Drimple.

[Anita Anand]

And once again, we are joined by the man who matters. At the moment, we're talking about the Chagos Islands and the history of why everybody is scrapping over it today and why it's in your headlines quite as often as it is. Philippe Sands, author, broadcaster, human rights lawyer, is with us again. And thank you very much. You did kind of slacken our jaws with some of the the facts you were throwing at us in the last episode. The images that you left us with. Dogs being abandoned and swimming after their owners, people being separated by virtue of the color of their skin. Whether they'd be over on the deck or under the deck. I Mean, these are things that are unthinkable and they're going on that recently.

[William Drimple]

And a crucial detail we didn't quite get to, which is that some of them end up in Crawley, desperate to get that in. I'm very poor.

[Anita Anand]

I've always been keen on the Crawley Elementary Crawley Chengaroo.

It's really important.

[Philippe Sands]

What happens is, I mean the community initially sets up in Mauritius and in Seychelles and some are then given the right of abode in the United Kingdom. They fly or are flown to Gatwick Airport and as has happened a few years earlier, there's no one there to meet them. They've got nowhere to go. What's the nearest town to Gatwick Airport?

[William Drimple]

Crawley.

[Philippe Sands]

Crawley. And they end up setting up shop in Crawley and that's why the Chagossian community is so strong in Crawley.

[William Drimple]

I'm intrigued by this detail. I mean they sort of bed down in Gatwick for a week.

[Anita Anand]

Do they speak the language? Are they a bit cold? They're not wearing the right clothes at.

[Philippe Sands]

That point, as I'm told. Speak Creole They've arrived in a country in which Creole is not widely understood. They've got nowhere to go. They sleep, I'm told at the airport for a few days and then they are given some form of housing in Crawley and then the community establishes itself and it's been established there ever since. And what's significant here, the Chagossian community is a fabulous community but like many communities it is divided in its views. Some would like Chagos to be part of Mauritius, some would like it to stay with the United Kingdom and some would like the independent Republic of Chagos.

[Anita Anand]

Wait a minute. Some want it to stay part of the United Kingdom even though this happened on the.

[William Drimple]

They'd grown up in Crawley.

[Philippe Sands]

So to put things in context for today, you've got, I think probably around five generations. Olivier Bancoux who was born in Paris Banios.

[Anita Anand]

He was a four year old child by the way, that we spoke.

[Philippe Sands]

Contract laborer.

[William Drimple]

Just to clarify, this is. This is sarcastic.

[Philippe Sands]

I mean he was characterized as a contract labourer by your legal colleagues? Not my colleagues I hope, but my British co nationals who happen to be lawyers. And he is characterized as a contract labourer aged four. I mean it's staggering. And he then leads the charge for the Chagossians to be able to go back, which all the Chagossians want to go back to. I think for many of those who are in the United Kingdom, second, third, fourth generations and Olivier refers constantly to the first generation Somewhat perhaps inelegantly, in current parlance, as les natifists, the natives, those who were born on the Chagos archipelago. And he believes that they should be given sort of dominance in determining what happens next. And most of them, almost all of them, want to be part of Mauritius and want Chagos to be part of the Mauritius because in realist terms, they know that's the only way they're ever going to get to go back. There's a very significant community and a very decent community in Crawley who are firmly committed to remaining British, in large part, when I talk to them because I get the sense that they are so unhappy with the way they were treated by Mauritius when they arrived in Mauritius. It's a very complicated situation.

[Anita Anand]

Right. Sounds it. When does the legal shenanigans your world, you know, where does all that start revving?

[Philippe Sands]

In simple terms, it's not until 1982 that the Mauritius government begins to agitate at the United nations and call for Chagos to be reinstated as part of Mauritius. But the litigation starts not at the international level. It starts in the English courts led by Olivier Bancoo, who brings a series of cases. Bancoo no. 1, Bancoo no. 2, right up to Banco no. 5. And Bancoo no. 6, largely successful, gets a determination by the English courts, the Court of Appeal, that they can go back. And that is then overturned by Tony Blair's government. After the events of September 11, when the military significance of. Of needing Diego Garcia becomes paramount. We don't want any of these people interesting.

[Anita Anand]

So can we play the thought game that if there hadn't been a September 11, then Bangkok and all of his family and friends would be back?

[Philippe Sands]

I'm pretty much certain that if September 11 had not happened, Robin Cook's decision to let them go back would not have been overturned.

[William Drimple]

But instead, Cook gets sacked. Jack Straw comes in as someone more pliable for the invasion of Iraq, and suddenly they think of a new use for the Chagos Islands and Diego Garcia.

[Philippe Sands]

Well, what you need to know is that the bombing of Iraq and Baghdad started with planes that left from Diego Garcia.

[Anita Anand]

So we've left.

Wait, wait. Just let that hang in the air for a second. Say that again. Just say that again.

[Philippe Sands]

Not only did the bombing of Baghdad occur on the first days of the war from planes that left from Diego Garcia, but in the next period, some of the flights that participated in what is known as extraordinary rendition, carrying a person from country A to country B for the purpose of being waterboarded or otherwise tortured, stopped at Diego Garcia. And this caused significant trouble for the British government in around 2007, 2008, when having given undertakings to the British Parliament in Westminster that there had been no such flight stopping at Diego Garcia, it turned out that some flights had stopped.

[Anita Anand]

But can you just tell me, I mean, after September 11th or even before September 11th, what is sort of like the legal standing of the base at Diego Garcia? Does anyone have to ask the British for permission to use it? Do the Americans come and go as they please? Who's in charge of it? Who does the cleaning? Who does the radar? Who does this all come under the.

[Philippe Sands]

British claim to have sovereignty throughout this whole period, they enter into an agreement with the Americans. The Americans basically have free use, but for any operational mission which includes bombing, etc. They must have prior sign off from the British government. I've now come to understand only since my involvement much later, that the reason the British attorney general in 2003 had to give a legal opinion justifying the use of military force against Iraq without a Security Council resolution was because the bombing was going to begin from Diego Garcia.

[William Drimple]

And this is pulled off through a legal gimmick, orders in council, which means it doesn't have to go through Parliament.

[Philippe Sands]

None of this has gone through Parliament. It's all been signed off with executive agreements between the United Kingdom and the United States with bordering Council. Parliament has never debated any of these issues. Parliament is not even aware of the deal between the British and the Americans back in the 1960s in which support for the Polaris missile system would be obtained in return for giving in effect a long term lease for Diego Garcia.

[Anita Anand]

What is their legal pushback against what you've said? What would they say? You know, you're saying, look, they had to sign off, they had to make it go under the table because it was going from Diego Garcia and it's got British fingerprints on it. What does the British government say in response? Because they're not going to. Oh yes, Philip, that's what we did. Exactly.

[Philippe Sands]

The British government, successive ministers have given statements in Parliament that for operational uses there has to be prior approval by the British government. So that's not contested, it's accepted.

[Anita Anand]

But nothing more than that. They won't say nothing more than that.

[Philippe Sands]

We don't know many of the operational details for obvious reasons because these are national security issues.

[William Drimple]

Let's go back to the islands. So most of the islands which were cleared out, leaving just dogs, starving dogs.

[Philippe Sands]

And one donkey.

[William Drimple]

And one donkey. They've run wild. Presumably the, you know, vines have overcome the houses. There's the sort of semi ruins there. But Diego Garcia has been developed into a major military base.

[Anita Anand]

Military base? Yeah.

[William Drimple]

What sort of scale base is it? How many people live there?

[Philippe Sands]

A scale beyond imagination. We do not know exactly how many people live there, but it has been described as one of the largest and most important US military bases, Air force bases in the world.

[William Drimple]

And there's no photographs. There's no.

[Philippe Sands]

There are some images that occasionally sailors going across the world pop off there and tell stories and take photographs. I do know people who have been there. But all accounts point to the conclusion that this is a base of major significance. And that becomes very important in the story going forward.

[William Drimple]

I mean, what are the sort of stories? That there's a submarine base, that they're using it for communications, that there's.

[Anita Anand]

How many football pitches, Phillipe, how many football pitches are we talking?

[Philippe Sands]

It's large. There are many long distance bombers stationed there. There are many naval vessels, including submarines that apparently visit there. I don't want to get into the speculation about what kinds of armaments are kept there. But the important point for all of this is, is Mauritius is close to the United Kingdom and the United States. And once it began to agitate for a return that started in 1982 with the then Prime Minister Sir Anurud Jugnath, it was then followed by litigation in the English courts by M. Boncour and that was then followed by the phone call to me from Prime Minister Ramgoolam. By that point there is cross party support in Mauritius except for a couple of parties with extreme views that Diego Garcia as a military base will continue to operate.

[Anita Anand]

Okay, so what are the arguments going on in Mauritius? You know, this is a place with one donkey and lots of dogs and a bloody huge, massive military base. So why are the Mauritians saying we want that back, we really want that back. Give it back now. And you know that it steps up the way it steps.

[Philippe Sands]

When I am hired in 2010, the position of the Mauritian government and successive Mauritian governments is they want sovereignty over the whole of the Chagos archipelago, including Diego Garcia. But the base will continue unchanged under Mauritian sovereignty on the basis of a long term arrangement not between the United Kingdom and the United States, but between Mauritius and the United Kingdom with a longer term lease from the United Kingdom.

[Anita Anand]

An expensive lease. I mean, would a cynic be right in saying it's about the money, honey? You get big rental, you've already got the property, the beachfront property. Then why?

[Philippe Sands]

I think. I think it was pretty, pretty clear to me when I was first instructed. It was really an issue of principle. It was really a desire to complete the decolonisation of Mauritius. There was a hurt that their territory had been part of it had been hived off. There was a real concern about the Chagossians and a real desire to allow them to go back to the islands other than Diego Garcia and there are 57 other islands. And there was one other factor that we haven't touched on, the catalyst. Why did I get the phone call in 2010? I got the phone call because a year earlier, as it was coming to the end of its term, the British government, a Labour government, decided in the face of all the problems with Diego Garcia on the bombing of Iraq, on extraordinary rendition flights, to create the largest marine protected area in the world, across the entirety of the Chagos Archipelago. Did that in 2009. That coincided with something called WikiLeaks. One of the WikiLeaks documents that came out was a telex from the American Embassy in London to the State Department in Washington, which, and I paraphrase, basically said, we have been talking to our British colleagues. They are going to create the largest marine protected area in the world at the Chagos Archipelago. And one of the great benefits of this marine protected area, which will allow the base to continue because it won't affect the operation of the base, is that the, quote, Man Fridays, end of quote, will never be able to go back.

[Anita Anand]

Did they call them Man Fridays?

[Philippe Sands]

They call them man Fridays in 2009. And this causes outrage.

[Anita Anand]

That's why the Russians are like, you don't talk to us like that.

[Philippe Sands]

Correct, correct. 2010, I get the phone call. Mr. Sands, will you help work with my fabulous team in Port Louis? And they are a fabulous team to design a legal strategy to recover the Chagos Archipelago. Step one, Mauritius files a case before Law of the Sea Arbitration Panel which rules unanimously that the marine protected area created by the United Kingdom is illegal. There's a second part of the case in which Mauritius has asked the Arbitration Tribunal, a panel of five arbitrators, to rule that Mauritius has sovereignty over the Chagos Archipelago, not the United Kingdom, because The deal of 1965 frightened them with hope. Deal was done by duress and is illegal. The Arbitration Tribunal rules by three votes to two. So a narrow defeat from Mauritius on the key point that it has no jurisdiction to decide who is the coastal state. It only has jurisdiction over maritime matters, not sovereignty over land territory. That takes us to 2015. A new government is then Elected in Mauritius, the new Prime Minister, Sir Anna Rudjugnauth, summons me to Port Louis with the team of fantastic Mauritian lawyers and says, I instruct you to get the case to the International Court of Justice. The only way we can get the case to the International Court of Justice is by a request for an advisory opinion from the General assembly of the United Nations. Do it, says the Commission Prime Minister.

[Anita Anand]

Escalating fast.

[Philippe Sands]

Well, 2015, our view is no chance in hell of winning a vote against the British and the Americans. They're just going to outmaneuver us. What is Mauritius saved by? Mauritius is saved by Brexit, which comes along in June 2016. And the consequence of Brexit is that support for the United Kingdom at the UN evaporates in an instance.

[Anita Anand]

Holy guacamole.

[Philippe Sands]

The vote is taken in June 2017 and by 94 votes to 16, the General assembly votes to send the case on whether the decolonisation of Mauritius has been completed in accordance with international law. Having regard to the separation of Chagos, was it lawfully completed? That question goes to the ICJ. There's then two years of pleadings. We have a hearing in September 2018 and the advisory opinion following the testimony of Liz B. Elysees, which is, to my mind, decisive in the proceedings, comes down in February 2019, when the International Court of Justice, 14 judges, rules without dissent in an advisory opinion that Mauritius has sovereignty over the Chagos Archipelago, not the United Kingdom, and orders the United Kingdom to end its unlawful occupation of the Chagos archipelago immediately.

[Anita Anand]

But can I just say, these are a string of extraordinary small things that lead to very big things. So, I mean, the first thing that sticks in my head is that you have a leaked document referring to people as Man Fridays, which puts the back of a nation up. You talked about 9, 11. Had that not happened, then this would have slipped very quietly under the radar and people would have been allowed to return home. And now you're saying that because Brexit happened, people were feeling very unfriendly to Britain and a vote. They should have walked in the dark with their eyes closed, didn't go their way because people were a bit pissed off with them.

[Philippe Sands]

All of that. You have summarized it perfectly. That is exactly what happened. In another world, it would have been very different.

[Anita Anand]

Look, let's take a break while we all just gasp. Join us after the break.

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[Anita Anand]

Welcome back. Now just before the break, we were talking about these teeny. Well, I mean they're not teeny, they're world events. Okay, 911 is not a teeny weeny event. But had these events not happened, things could be very, very different. And Philippe Sands who is right in the middle of all of this and is absolutely the best person to talk us through this, started to explain what was. Now you call it an advisory, an advisory panel, advisory adjudication. What are we talking about here? Because everyone speaks legally.

[Philippe Sands]

So the International Court of Justice is the principal judicial organ of the United.

[William Drimple]

Nations, which is the guys who've been in the headlines a great deal lately about the various adjudications on Gaza and whether it's genocide.

[Philippe Sands]

Correct, Correct. And the Court has two types of cases. There are contentious disputes between states, so, you know, Iran versus the United States or something, and those are one type of case. The second type of case is when a body of the United nations, the General assembly, sends a request to the Court for an advisory opinion for legal guidance on an issue. And that's what happened in June 2017, when the General assembly of the United nations voted by a large majority to ask the International Court of Justice to give a decision on whether the decolonisation of Mauritius was completed in relation to this separation of the Chagos Archipelago. And that's effectively asking who has sovereignty?

[Anita Anand]

But how much muscle does it have if it's got the word advisory in it? Just. I mean, how much?

[Philippe Sands]

So it is not binding on the states that are members, but it is binding on the United nations itself. So when the Court gave its advisory opinion in February 2019, it's addressed to the United Nations. The consequence of that is the UN changes its map to show that the Chagos Archipelago is part of Mauritius, not disputed and not part of the United Kingdom. The Universal Postal Union rules that any stamp with the word British Indian Ocean Territory will no longer be lawful and used. The Food and Agriculture Organization rules that the United Kingdom can no longer have fishing rights around the Chagos Archipago and so on and so forth. So it has authoritative legal.

[Anita Anand]

Things change overnight as a result of this.

[Philippe Sands]

Things change overnight. The General assembly then passes a resolution accepting that it will implement the Chagos ruling by the International Court of Justice. Interestingly, in that case, the majority against the United Kingdom is even greater. The United Kingdom persuades only five countries in the world out of 200.

[William Drimple]

Can you remember which ones they are?

[Philippe Sands]

I can. Australia, the Maldives, Israel, Hungary and the United States. The vast majority of the rest vote to accept the advisory opinion. What happens next? The Government of Theresa May has to decide what to do. It decides, in effect, to stick two fingers up in the air to the International Court of Justice. We will not give effect to this advisory opinion. National security trumps everything.

[Anita Anand]

Have they Done that before. Have they said anything?

[Philippe Sands]

They've not been on the receiving end of an advisory opinion before. And this is problematic in the United Kingdom Kingdom context because its brand in part is a commitment to the rule of law. So people are rather surprised that persists from 1999 until 2022. What changes now? I would love to be able to.

[Anita Anand]

Say it was Philippe Sands. What changes?

[Philippe Sands]

Philippe Sands book, the Last economy, published in September 2022, changed the situation. It did not. The Russian invasion of Ukraine change the situation. And you look at me with wonderful puzzlement on your face, William, what is he talking about now? The Foreign Secretary at the time was a lady called Liz Truss, our most.

[William Drimple]

Esteemed Prime Minister ever.

[Philippe Sands]

Indeed, she went around the world trying to find support for the coalition of countries to support the United Kingdom in its effort to respond to the illegality of Russia's occupation of large parts of the territory of Ukraine. As one prominent, very prominent African ambassador based in Brussels said to me, it was very interesting, Philippe, he said, the British came to us Foreign Secretary, would we help end the illegal occupation by Russia of Ukraine? And we said to them, huh, that's interesting. Let me see if we've understood this correctly. You who are illegally occupying a part of Africa, the Chagos archipelagos.

[Anita Anand]

Wow.

[Philippe Sands]

Wish us to support you in removing Russia's illegal occupation of Ukraine? We don't think so. Bugger off. And that is one of the reasons why so few African countries have supported the west in relation to Russia. Ukraine.

[William Drimple]

How interesting. Nominally obscure group of islands with only 2000 people ever living in them, tipping.

[Anita Anand]

The balance of power.

[Philippe Sands]

Because every, every time the British or the Americans complain about Ukraine or the South China Seas, the Russians and the Chinese say Chegas.

[Anita Anand]

Well, you know what? It's a refrain in the global South. And you see it, you see in adverts for commodities and jokes and cartoons. Do as I say, not as I do. So this horse.

[Philippe Sands]

We're in Jaipur. India becomes very important in this matter because India totally supports the position of Mauritius. And we now find a situation in which the United Kingdom, which claims to have excellent relations with India and generally does, needs to curry favour with the Indians. And what happens is that in September 2022, the British government position changes. What I can tell you is this. Liz Truss, as Foreign Secretary, had communicated to Mauritius privately that her own view was there should be an agreed settlement on the Chagos issue in accordance with international law. But she said her Prime Minister would not allow her to see that through. Mr. Johnson, she said, if I become Prime Minister, everything will change. Frankly, Mauritius and I thought this is. Do we believe this or not? Well, she did become Prime Minister and.

[William Drimple]

Within, though famously for less long than.

[Philippe Sands]

A lettuce, but long enough. Long enough over those 49 days to invite the Prime Minister of Mauritius, at that point, Mr. Pravind Jugnauth, to a meeting at the United nations at which the two agreed they would negotiate a solution to Chagos on the basis of international law. And so Conservative Prime Minister Liz Truss unleashed the negotiations that would lead to a settlement of the issue.

[Anita Anand]

Can I just say something? She's very curious. Therefore I would just put it to you. I put it to you, ladies and gentlemen. It's very curious that actually now that Labour is doing that, the voices from the Conservatives are saying we would never do that. This is outrageous. You sell outs and I mean politics is, I know is not your game, but I'm not seeing this wrongly, am I? These are the same voices that would have backed Liz Truss move which are now saying labor doing this is making a terrible mistake and plunging national security.

[Philippe Sands]

Thirteen rounds of negotiations, only two of which were under a Labour government. It's a Tory agreement. All its principal elements were drafted by successive foreign secretaries. Mr. Cleverly. And then Lord Cameron essentially begging Mauritius to enter into an agreement to resolve this matter on the basis of international law so that everyone can move on. When Labour then took it up, more.

[William Drimple]

Support, in their view, for gang against Russia.

[Philippe Sands]

Exactly. Now, Britain at this moment in time is slightly isolated. It needs friends in many places, including India, including other former countries.

[Anita Anand]

Why is India so interested that Mauritius should retain rights here? Because there is an ethnic dynamic to this. I know, because, you know, you've had successive Prime Ministers and Mauritius who are of Indian origin. At some point, you know, the whole. We've done the whole story of indentured labour and the mass migration. It's a real empire story. But is that it? Is that what it is?

[Philippe Sands]

I don't know if either of you have ever been to Mauritius and met many Mauritians, but you will notice that they bear a remarkable resemblance to many of the people who are currently at the Jaipur Literary Festival.

[Anita Anand]

It's as simple as that.

[Philippe Sands]

As simple as there is a connection. When I hear that these people who say we're really worried Mauricio is going to cut a deal and sell it China. Yeah, it's hopeless. It's like India cutting a deal with China.

[William Drimple]

That said that Indians are having a big squabble at the moment with the Maldives that also look very like Indians.

[Philippe Sands]

This is another thing that comes up. It seems that a lot of British politicians are unable to tell the difference between the Maldives and the machines. I myself have had an entire conversation over lunch with a former British Solicitor General who spoke to me about his fears of Mauritius doing another deal with the Chinese. And it was only after the lunch that I realized you think about them all these. He was talking about the.

[Anita Anand]

Can I just say one other thing? We're sort of presuming knowledge and we ought to maybe explain, but India does not have good relations, to put it mildly, with China. India is worried China is on its border.

[William Drimple]

Nor does it have good relations with the Maldives currently.

[Anita Anand]

Yeah, but, but just talking about China at the moment, because the whole argument is, is that if Mauritius gets these, this archipelago back, it will sell it to the Chinese at an enormous profit, then what's going to happen to national security? And what you're saying is this Indian kind of connection and ethnicity means they would never sell.

[William Drimple]

We should also say something that we haven't said so far, that this whole area is, is an area of naval contention between China and India. And over 20 years, from about the 1990s through to the 2 tens, the Chinese very successfully built what they call the String of Pearls, which is a series of deep water ports where Chinese nuclear submarines and other bases can operate entirely ringing India. India seemed not to notice. India was so obsessed with Pakistan that at this point in history they allowed the Giant to take Colombo, Trincomalee in two major ports in Sri Lanka, Gwada in Pakistan and a series of other major ports. So India in a sense has found itself ringed by potential Chinese bases. So this would be a very good point.

[Philippe Sands]

This is exactly the point, William. So the agreement has been essentially concluded. It has not yet been made public. But what it essentially provides for is sovereignty of Mauritius, the long term security of the base Diego Garcia run by the British and the Americans, the return of the Chagossians and the creation of a proper and lawful marine protected area. So from the point of view of India, you replace a situation of manifest uncertainty with long term security and stability. A British and American presence close by, the Mauritians not upset anymore that their lands have been taken over by others, the Chagossians having justice done to them and a decent marine. It's a win win situation for those countries.

[William Drimple]

You just said something that was very interesting. You said a British and American base. I mean, do you have any conception of is there a British base on one end of the island and an American Base on the other end of the island or runways that they're both using. What's the system?

[Philippe Sands]

No, I mean. And the agreement that has been negotiated and essentially concluded is an agreement between Mauritius and the United Kingdom on the understanding that the United Kingdom will then effectively sublet the base to the Americans. The base is run by the Americans, as I understand it, with a British presence on the base, but it's essentially an American base. And at that point there had been no Mauritian trip to Chagos Archipelago, ever. The first time the Mauritians organized a visit to the Chagos archipelago was in February 2022. I was on the boat with 25 other people, including five Chagossians, including Olivier Boncu and Lisbe Elyse. Very excited, hugely excited. The moment we entered the exclusive economic zone, 200 miles from the nearest island, magically the Internet on the boat failed.

[Anita Anand]

And for five days, 200 miles away.

[Philippe Sands]

And for five days we had no Internet.

[Anita Anand]

Right.

[Philippe Sands]

And we were followed by a British patrol vessel, a British distance which I communicated with and which I have a recording of.

[Anita Anand]

How did you communicate? Hello?

[Philippe Sands]

Yes, you. Can you play?

[Anita Anand]

Have you got it now?

[Philippe Sands]

Yes, I've got it.

[Anita Anand]

Can you play it now?

[Philippe Sands]

Yes, I've got it. Let's pause and I'll get it out for you. I'll play it now.

[William Drimple]

072 DE 21 decimal 2 East rod.

[Philippe Sands]

Oh, we welcome you.

[Anita Anand]

Perfect. Good morning. This is motor calling.

[Philippe Sands]

What you want me to ask? What are they doing there? Good afternoon.

[Anita Anand]

Good morning.

[William Drimple]

Name is the Grampian frontier.

[Philippe Sands]

Gran frontier. What are they? What are they doing there? What are they doing there?

[Anita Anand]

Yeah.

[Philippe Sands]

Good morning.

[Anita Anand]

Good morning, Captain. We were just asking which is your purpose in Chagos over blue denim.

[William Drimple]

This is the granient frontier. We are conducting fisheries patrons in the area or.

[Philippe Sands]

Well, I should explain the context. The captain, who is a wonderful Italian called Masha, told us there's a boat following us. And I said, ooh, are you able to contact the boat? She said, yes, I can. She said they've turned off their transponder so they think we can't see them on the radar. But I've spotted them with my binoculars and they. I noticed they turned off their transponder. Can you contact them? So she says yes. So she sends out a message to ask them who they are and what their location is. We were amused by being followed by a British patrol vessel.

[William Drimple]

And how does this voyage end? Do they stop you going any further?

[Philippe Sands]

It was very moving. No, we went all the way. It was the first Mauritian trip and we arrived at Paris Banas. We circumvented Diego Garcia. We didn't want to cause any trouble, so went way past.

[William Drimple]

You didn't want to end up at a black site.

[Philippe Sands]

I wanted to end up back in London. And we arrive on Paris Banyas. We go through the reef into the lagoon. It's incredibly moving because Lisby points to the place where she was born. We drop anchor, we get onto a little boat, and we observe the five Chagossians returning to their island for the first time without a British military protective group. And they're a very religious community. The first thing they do is they sink to their knees on the sand and they pray. And the second thing they do is they go to the remains of the church and they start cleaning up. It was extraordinary. And they describe that they were baptized here. And then they take us to the cemetery and we see the graves of their forebears, their. Their grandparents, their great grandparents going back a long time. And it's one of the most moving experiences I've ever had. I will never forget being there. It's one of the most remarkable places on earth.

[Anita Anand]

Are they still there or did they have to leave with.

[Philippe Sands]

No, no, we left after five, six days. One of the five is this remarkable fellow called Marcel, who is a fisherman and who just would, you know, drop his line in and bring out a 20 pound tuna. Just like that. Just like that. And he wanted to stay. He wanted to stay. And we told him no. We felt we really needed to bring him back. The Mauritians planted Mauritian flags, sung the Mauritian national anthem, and it was then, you know, five days back to Mauritius. It was an extraordinary trip.

[William Drimple]

So, Philippe, just bring us now up to the present. What's the last and latest point this case has reached?

[Philippe Sands]

Well, after 15 years, if there is an agreement, Mauritius and the United Kingdom have managed to effectively come to a position where they are on the same page. That agreement, there was a slight hope that it would be signed before Mr. Trump acceded to the presidency. But the British government decided that it was important that Mr. Trump should have a chance in his administration to exceed, you know, to say he's comfortable with this. So it's now on his desk and we are waiting to see what happens next.

[Anita Anand]

Well, when it does happen, will you come back and talk to us?

[Philippe Sands]

With great happiness. And would you like to come with us to Chagos? Because it is an incredible.

[Anita Anand]

We are so coming.

[Philippe Sands]

There will be a trip.

[Anita Anand]

Oh, my God. Yeah.

[Philippe Sands]

I mean, we went with three journalists last time, including Andrew Harding from the BBC, Cullen Murphy from the Atlantic magazine, and Owen Bocott from the Guardian. And I think all three of them would tell you it's possibly one of the most extraordinary trips.

[Anita Anand]

Well, move over, Harding. You're booking a place on that page. Listen, it's been an absolute delight. Thank you so much for putting it all in context and maybe giving everybody some idea of why this is so important, why it will continue to be in the headlines until we hear what Donald Trump thinks about this treaty, where the ink is.

[William Drimple]

I've got a good feeling Donald Trump's not just going to hand over.

[Anita Anand]

Well, can I just say. Can I. Okay, Can I put my newsy hat on? So a lot of. A lot of people are saying this, but one thing I find significant is he himself has not uttered the words, I don't want this treaty to be ratified. He hasn't said it. It's all sort of his surrogates for him. State Department voices are saying he hasn't said it. And I think. I don't know, in. In my experience, that's kind of important, isn't it?

[William Drimple]

Oh, Philip Philippe could not have just.

[Anita Anand]

Made a gesture of zipping his lips. He's not going to say it. But his eyes said, yes, Anita, thou art wise. Anyway, let's leave it there till the next time we meet. It's goodbye from me, Anita Anand.

Hi.

[William Drimple]

Goodbye from me. William Durample.