Empire Podcast Episode 230: Britain’s Last Colony: Trump, Brexit, and Russia-Ukraine

Release Date: February 17, 2025

Hosts: William Dalrymple and Anita Anand
Guest: Philippe Sands, Author, Broadcaster, Human Rights Lawyer

1. Introduction

In Episode 230 of Empire, hosts Anita Anand and William Dalrymple delve into the complex history and present-day implications of the Chagos Islands, focusing on their strategic importance and the ongoing disputes surrounding them. The episode features an in-depth conversation with Philippe Sands, a renowned human rights lawyer, who provides expert insights into the legal and geopolitical intricacies of the situation.

2. The Chagos Islands: Historical Context

Anita Anand opens the discussion by highlighting the emotional and human aspects of the Chagos Islands' history, as recounted by Philippe Sands.

"Dogs being abandoned and swimming after their owners, people being separated by virtue of the color of their skin. Whether they'd be over on the deck or under the deck. I Mean, these are things that are unthinkable and they're going on that recently."
[02:19] - Philippe Sands

Sands explains that the Chagossian community was forcibly removed from their homeland in the late 1960s and early 1970s to make way for a military base. Many of these displaced individuals ended up in Crawley, UK, where a strong Chagossian community persists today.

3. Legal Battles and International Law

The conversation shifts to the lengthy legal struggle for the Chagossians' right to return. Sands details the series of court cases led by Olivier Bancoo, which culminated in a landmark decision by the International Court of Justice (ICJ).

"The International Court of Justice ruled without dissent in an advisory opinion that Mauritius has sovereignty over the Chagos Archipelago, not the United Kingdom, and orders the United Kingdom to end its unlawful occupation of the Chagos Archipelago immediately."
[16:12] - Philippe Sands

Anand and Dalrymple explore the challenges faced in these legal battles, including political maneuvers and shifts in international support, particularly influenced by events like Brexit and the Trump administration.

4. Impact of Brexit and the Trump Administration

Sands connects the dots between Brexit and the outcome of the Chagos Islands dispute. He posits that Brexit's effect on the UK's standing in the UN was pivotal in garnering the necessary support for Mauritius.

"Brexit... support for the United Kingdom at the UN evaporates in an instance."
[16:36] - Philippe Sands

Furthermore, the episode examines how the Trump administration's policies intersected with ongoing international conflicts, notably the Russia-Ukraine war, affecting the UK's strategic decisions regarding Diego Garcia, the key military base in the Chagos Archipelago.

5. Geopolitical Implications

A significant portion of the discussion revolves around the strategic importance of Diego Garcia, the military base established on the island. Sands emphasizes its role in global military operations, linking it to events such as the bombing of Baghdad and the practice of extraordinary rendition.

"The bombing of Baghdad occurred on the first days of the war from planes that left from Diego Garcia, but in the next period, some of the flights that participated in what is known as extraordinary rendition... stopped at Diego Garcia."
[07:14] - Philippe Sands

The podcast also touches upon the "String of Pearls" strategy by China, highlighting the naval competition in the Indian Ocean and how the outcome of the Chagos dispute could influence broader geopolitical dynamics, especially concerning India and China relations.

6. Personal Experiences and Anecdotes

Philippe Sands shares personal anecdotes from his visits to the Chagos Archipelago, providing a human perspective to the geopolitical and legal narratives.

"We were followed by a British patrol vessel... It was the first Mauritian trip and we arrived at Paris Banyas... It was incredibly moving because Lisby points to the place where she was born."
[34:14] - Philippe Sands

These narratives underscore the emotional stakes for the displaced Chagossian community and the profound impact of international politics on individual lives.

7. Current Status and Future Prospects

As the episode approaches its conclusion, Sands outlines the current status of the Chagos Islands dispute. An agreement between Mauritius and the United Kingdom has been negotiated, aiming to resolve sovereignty issues while maintaining the strategic Diego Garcia base under American management.

"The agreement... provides for sovereignty of Mauritius, the long-term security of the base Diego Garcia run by the British and the Americans, the return of the Chagossians, and the creation of a lawful marine protected area."
[31:55] - Philippe Sands

However, the finalization of this treaty is pending approval from the Trump administration, leaving the resolution of the dispute in a state of uncertainty.

8. Conclusion

Anita Anand and William Dalrymple wrap up the episode by reflecting on the interconnectedness of seemingly isolated events and their far-reaching consequences. They underscore the importance of international law and geopolitical strategy in shaping the destiny of nations and communities.

"A lot of people are saying this, but one thing I find significant is he himself has not uttered the words, I don't want this treaty to be ratified... his eyes said, yes, Anita, thou art wise."
[39:17] - Anita Anand

The episode leaves listeners contemplating the delicate balance between national security, international diplomacy, and human rights, highlighting the enduring legacy of imperialism in today's global landscape.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps:

• "The bombing of Baghdad occurred on the first days of the war from planes that left from Diego Garcia..."
  [07:14] - Philippe Sands

• "The International Court of Justice ruled without dissent in an advisory opinion that Mauritius has sovereignty over the Chagos Archipelago..."
  [16:12] - Philippe Sands

• "Brexit... support for the United Kingdom at the UN evaporates in an instance."
  [16:36] - Philippe Sands

• "We were followed by a British patrol vessel... It was incredibly moving..."
  [34:14] - Philippe Sands

• "A lot of people are saying this... his eyes said, yes, Anita, thou art wise."
  [39:17] - Anita Anand

This episode of Empire provides a comprehensive exploration of the Chagos Islands' historical displacement, legal battles, and its strategic significance in contemporary geopolitics. Through Philippe Sands' expert analysis, listeners gain a nuanced understanding of how imperial legacies continue to influence present-day international relations.