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- [00:01]
Anita Arnand
If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter. Sign up to empire club@www.empirepoduk.com. today at T Mobile, I'm joined by a special co anchor.
- [00:23]
William Durample
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- [00:25]
Anita Arnand
Double G Snoop.
- [00:26]
Dermot Ferreter
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Anita Arnand
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- [00:34]
Dermot Ferreter
That's quite a deal. Snoop.
- [00:36]
Anita Arnand
And when you switch to T Mobile, you can save versus the other big guys.
- [00:39]
Dermot Ferreter
Comparable plans plus streaming respect.
- [00:42]
Anita Arnand
When we up out of here, see.
- [00:44]
Dermot Ferreter
How you can save on wireless and streaming versus the other big guys. @t mobile.com/apple intelligence requires iOS 18.1 or later.
- [00:50]
William Durample
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Dermot Ferreter
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William Durample
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- [01:20]
Dermot Ferreter
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- [01:26]
William Durample
Exactly what kind of a lawyer are you?
- [01:29]
Dermot Ferreter
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- [02:00]
William Durample
Hello and welcome to Empire with me, me, Anita Arnand and me, William Durample. We are once again joined by the just magnificent Dermot Ferreter, author of Between Two Hells, the Irish Civil War and A Nation Not a Rabble, the Irish Revolution, 1913-1923. You've had us absolutely spellbound with your account of what led up to and indeed the Easter Rising. For those who might not have heard our last episode, if you haven't go back and listen to it. It's really well worth it, I promise you. But in summary, it was a time in when Irish nationalist organizations all come together to lead an insurrection calling for Irish independence from Britain. They take over key building. I mean, I say key buildings. One of them was a biscuit factory.
- [02:45]
Dermot Ferreter
Which was somewhat baffling rebels had provisions anyway.
- [02:48]
William Durample
Oh, right.
- [02:48]
Dermot Ferreter
They had a conversation, yes.
- [02:50]
William Durample
If not cheese, they had the crackers. But they took over key buildings and they fought for six long days before being forced to surrender. What was the response of the people of Dublin and further afield to the Easter Rising?
- [03:06]
Dermot Ferreter
There were feelings of great betrayal. There were a group of women known as the Separation Women, whose husbands were fighting in the trenches on the Western Front in the First World War, as Irish members of the British Army. They were very angry. They felt a great sense of betrayal that this had been a stab in the back. And, of course, news slowly began to filter through to those troops. There were also Dubliners who were hugely inconvenienced in a very obvious way. They couldn't get bread, they couldn't get provisions, they can't go about their daily business. The city centre is a smouldering ruin. So you have that impact as well. It's estimated that the Rising caused damage of around two and a half million pounds in 1916 terms. So there are huge inconveniences there and to magnificent buildings.
- [03:52]
Anita Arnand
The GPO is one of the most.
- [03:53]
Dermot Ferreter
Beautiful buildings and it takes years for them to be rebuilt. But there's also that sense of confusion about what the hell was this all about? Was it mandated? Who wanted this? You know, on what authority were they acting now? Rebels of the late 19th and early 20th century generally didn't go looking for mandates, so that wasn't particularly unusual. But I think we should remember one thing. Desmond Fitzgerald, who fought in the GPO in 1916 with his wife Mabel, who was the father of a future Irish Prime Minister, Garrett Fitzgerald. Desmond Fitzgerald recalled in his memoirs that it was the mood of despair within Irish nationalism that prompted the Rising. And what he was alluding to there was the lack of a general appetite for rebellion. So the rebels felt they needed to do something drastic in order to try and light a fuse that might ultimately become a flame of freedom. So we shouldn't necessarily see them as being extraordinarily optimistic. What they were trying to do, of course, was. Was begin a new phase, but many resented what that involved.
- [05:00]
Anita Arnand
We have this description I've got here. Stephen McKenna, Greek scholar and a friend of Piers, and he's listening in the street and this is his description of the reaction to the Rising. He says the response was chilling. A few thin, perfunctory cheers. No direct hostility just then, but no enthusiasm whatsoever. The hostility, especially from middle class Dublin, was not slow in coming. So at this stage, it's not this sort of Big, iconic rising that we see in the movies. But it is the executions of the ringleaders that changes opinion. Tell us about that, Diarmid.
- [05:40]
Dermot Ferreter
The execution of the leaders overseen by John Maxwell, who was the military governor sent to suppress the Rising. They were drawn out, and this was a mistake, a tactical mistake on the part of the British authorities because it allows a degree of momentum and resentment to build up and even some sentiment being expressed that, okay, they may have been misguided to the rebels. This is an Irish sentiment. They may have been misguided, but they fought a clean fight in the sense that, you know, they had locked themselves in these buildings. They made themselves obviously very vulnerable. They were hugely committed to the cause, and some of them, to the point that they gave their lives for it, and that this response was over the top. And the fact that it was drawn out, of course, allowed these sentiments to grow wings. There are even children heard in the street praying to St. Paul. Pearce, who, as I mentioned, Patrick Pearce, you know, as the figurehead of the Rising, was not necessarily a nationally known character, but he is becoming better known. So resentment does build up about that. But I think what's equally important are the amount of people who are rounded up in the aftermath. And the irony of this is that more people were rounded up than had fought in 1916, and the British authorities are sometimes relying on lists that are completely outdated of previous suspected rebels who are now eminently respectable members of the community. And there are a couple of thousand people arrested. So the response in that sense is out of proportion, you could argue, to what happened in Dublin. But those who defended that approach would argue that, well, this was the ultimate treachery. Britain was at war, the Empire was at war. And here's this stab in the back in Dublin, and it needed to be suppressed with great force.
- [07:16]
William Durample
Well, I mean, the suppression itself is worth thinking about just for a little while longer before we come to the manner of the executions and why that actually was so very stoking of fury in a way that the uprising itself was not. The trials were held in camera, so no one got to see what was going on. They were charged, the ringleaders, with rebellion and the intent of assisting the enemy. They were given no legal representation, no legal aid, they weren't allowed to call witnesses. So for those who wanted to put forward that clarion call that they treat us less than they treat themselves, here's evidence. You know, if you can't defend yourself, you have no witnesses, they have no due process. What have we with this great British Institution of democracy. It doesn't apply to us. And then, you know, you've got some really heartbreaking stories before we get to the actual ringleader's desk, because I think the death of Connolly is particularly emotive for many Irish people at the time. Let's talk about Joseph Plunkett, because that story is a heartbreaker and, you know, just feels to me like a movie in the making. Tell us, who is Joseph Plunkett and what happens to him?
- [08:19]
Dermot Ferreter
Joseph Plunkett was again one of the signatories of the 1916 proclamation. And again, we have a variety of different characters there, some of them immersed in the world of education, some of them imbued with this sense that there is a knownness on them to light the flame, that they have a generational responsibility to try and provide inspiration. Joseph Plunkett, I presume you're referring there to the final visits before executions.
- [08:50]
William Durample
Well, of course I am. Because it's such a romantic, sad story.
- [08:54]
Dermot Ferreter
Some people might be familiar with Rod Stewart introducing a song called Grace to his concert lists. Which song? Composed at a much later stage, telling the story about Grace Gifford, who visits the cell, you know, and it's about Grace. Hold me in your arms and let this moment linger they'll take me out at dawn and I will die. And, you know, you have that romantic tragedy there.
- [09:19]
William Durample
What it is, is that they say to Joseph Plunkett and Grace Gifford, you're allowed to get married, but they are surrounded by soldiers the whole time. They have 10 minutes together before the execution. So that song Grace, that you talked about.
- [09:32]
Dermot Ferreter
With all my love I place this wedding ring upon your finger and there won't be time to share our love for we must say goodbye Now Some people find that mawkish and sentimental.
- [09:48]
William Durample
No, I don't capture.
- [09:50]
Dermot Ferreter
We're all game for that of the romantic tragedy. And it became a way as well, I suppose, of communicating that sentiment around the personal stories, those connections.
- [10:04]
William Durample
Just so beautiful for you to sing it as well. And, you know, many an anthem is born on this day. So let's talk about Connelly, one of the ringleaders, who's injured so badly from this final stand on the Easter Uprising day that he can't stand up. He's basically in a stretcher. What do they do to Connolly?
- [10:23]
Dermot Ferreter
They have to tie Connolly to a chair in order for him to be executed. And these are the kind of stories, of course, that reverberated down through the decades about the inhumanity and the cruelty of the response to the 1916 Rising and these individual stories, of course, are fleshed out because these characters are now becoming iconic. James Connolly, ironically, would have been very dismissive of some of the sentimental sludge, as he saw it, that Patrick Pearce came out with, because Connolly ultimately believed in the international cause of the worker. He hated the First World War because it was sending so many working class recruits to the front that they were being slaughtered in such numbers for the capitalist classes. He was a very committed socialist, but ultimately he came round to the idea of the 1916 Rising because he didn't believe that you could achieve an Irish Workers Republic unless you achieved independence from Britain first. So he comes quite late to the cause of the 1916 Rising, but ultimately is very committed to it. He was not afraid to die. And he told his family that they had fought a good fight and that, you know, the legacy had been secured. So some of them are very confident in going to their death. Patrick Pierce had been very busy during the Easter week, not in firing or fighting, but in fashioning the narrative, the after narrative, the legacy. He makes sure he commits words to pages that can ultimately be quoted, and they are still quoted to this day. So they approach their demise in very different ways. And then there were those whose stories are remembered more for the individual tragedies or the family tragedies or the love stories that might be involved. So that becomes very much a part of the broad narrative of 1916. And even those who happened upon the 1916 rising who weren't aware of it being organized and who felt they needed to throw in their lot. There were about 700 people there in Dublin at the outset, but they were joined by others during the week. And of course, it became something that was satirized ultimately in subsequent decades. The amount of people who claimed they were in the GPO In Dublin in 1916, the Irish Tourist Board, in its infancy in the 1920s, was insisting that there was plenty of tourist accommodation in Dublin. And, you know, a satirical magazine at the time had a drawing of the gpo, and the tagline was, accommodation is not a problem in this city. This building held 30,000 patriots in 1916. So it did become something to be satirized to a degree. But by and large, there is extraordinary reverence around the idea of 1916 service. But it's not apparent in the immediate days after.
- [12:58]
William Durample
No, but in the immediate days afterwards. I mean, we're only talking about 10 May. Important people are moved. I mean, that's the thing. So, you know, you're right. This is a time of war. This is A time when everybody needs to be pulling together. Anyone who's particularly taking guns from the Germans and then turning them on the country is a traitor. And yet people stick their heads above the parapet after these stories. Pierce is right. You know, you tell the narrative right. You will gather together people. George Bernard Shaw, for example, writes in the daily mail on 10 May, saying, the shot Irishmen will now take their places beside Emmet and the Manchester martyrs in Ireland and beside the heroes of Poland and Serbia and Belgium in Europe. And nothing in heaven or earth can prevent it. So, you know, that is an important voice.
- [13:40]
Dermot Ferreter
But you know what else is an important voice? You know, we talked earlier on about the Irish parliamentary tradition and Parnell and John Redmond and fighting for Home rule through constitutional and parliamentary politics. The Irish parliamentarians in Westminster begin to realize the damage that the British response is doing. And the way they put it in the House of Commons is, you are washing out our whole life's work in a sea of blood. In other words, all the progress that we have made in Anglo Irish relations, you know, all the welfare issues that we talked about, the land, the housing, the quest for home rule, you, by your actions, are completely undermining that. And that is one of the most profound legacies of the 1916 Rising. It ultimately destroys the home rule project.
- [14:25]
Anita Arnand
I've got a wonderful speech here by one of your MPs that you're talking about, John Dillon, and he stands up and says, I say I am proud of their courage. He's saying this in Parliament. If you were not so dense and stupid as some of you English people are, you would have had these men fighting for you. It is not murderers who are being executed. It is insurgents who have fought a clean fight, a brave fight, however misguided. And Asquith immediately heads for Ireland to prevent further executions.
- [14:55]
Dermot Ferreter
Now, John Dillon was in Dublin at the time of the 1916 Rising. Unlike many of his colleagues, he recognized that this was a game changer in a way that those who were far removed from the site of the fighting wouldn't have recognized. So his perspective was particularly interesting. But if eminently respectable parliamentarians are speaking in such grave terms, it'll give you an idea of how the sentiment was also changing on the ground. And it was the rounding up of people as well that had a huge impact on families. Because if we talk about a couple of thousand people being rounded up and then carted off to various British prisons, and there was Frongo, of course, most famously in Wales, where some of them were interned the impact that that had on the families, particularly those who felt hugely aggrieved that this was not in any way deserved. And then the question is, what are they going to do with these prisoners? You know, those who have not been sentenced to death, what are they going to do with them? Are they going to be giving hostages to fortune by incarcerating them indefinitely? And what becomes fascinating, really, is initially those who had not received the most severe censure and sentences, they're released at Christmas 1916, including one Michael Collins. And Michael Collins returns to his native West Cork. And there is a police report suggesting that Collins will go about his business and shouldn't trouble us any further in the future. Well, how misplaced was that? So there are those who survive to learn the lessons of 1916, most famously Collins, and begin the process of reorganization and look at how they might make political capital out of this. And it is here that we also do need to bring in another character, and that's Arthur Griffith. Arthur Griffith was the founder of the Sinn Fein political movement in 1905. Sinn Fein is not central to the 1916 Rising. The 1916 Rising, as we mentioned, was orchestrated by the secret Irish Republican Brotherhood. There are some members of Sinn Fein involved, but Sinn Fein is a very small organization. But isn't it revealing that Britain is referring to the 1916 Rising as the Sinn Fein rebellion? Because Sinn Fein was often used as a shorthand for Irish separatism or Irish radicalism, and they mislabeled it. And in a sense, they gave what we would call in the modern era, brand recognition to Sinn Fein. And even though Arthur Griffith is the leader of Sinn Fein, he had not been involved in 1916. He had qualms about the Irish Republican Brotherhood that he had flirted with at a younger stage. But Arthur Griffith is now being spoken about in the context of a Sinn Fein movement that might actually gain political capital if the rebels want to go the political route.
- [17:33]
Anita Arnand
We talked about Michael Collins and how he escapes death. There's a whole story, isn't there, that he overhears somebody discussing his possible execution. He just moves to the other side of the room.
- [17:45]
Dermot Ferreter
There are an awful lot of anecdotes about Collins. Collins would not seriously have been in the frame for execution after 1916 because.
- [17:52]
William Durample
He was too little and unimportant.
- [17:54]
Dermot Ferreter
I mean, given who they were trying to identify, particularly when it comes to the ringleaders. He was not a ringleader. But what Collins had as well was a background in the post office in London. He had those connections, those immigrant Connections. He was involved in cultural circles and sporting circles, the gaa, the Gaelic Athletic association, and so on in London. He became a very efficient organizer as a result of his work experience. And when he comes back at the end of 1916 and then into 1917, he becomes involved in welfare work for the dependents of those who have been bereaved as a result of 1916, or whose family members have been imprisoned. And again, these welfare organizations, they're also deeply political organizations, and as a way of establishing further contacts and networking around.
- [18:45]
William Durample
The Irish Republic and network and loyalty. You get both those things. I want to just quickly talk about Constance Markevich. So she was the one famously which discussed her in the last episode, dressed suitably in short skirts, strong boots, leafy jewels, buy a revolver, you know, as heritage to all the women. She was one of 70 women prisoners who were taken after the uprising. But she was placed in solitary confinement, and the English newspapers go gaga. I mean, she's a celebrity after all. You know, she's a. She's a woman of fine breeding. She's a beauty. Yeah. But the newspapers talk about her as the notorious countess. And in her court case, which takes place in 1916, she says, I went out to fight for Ireland's freedom, and it does not matter, matter what happens to me. I did what I thought was right and I stand by it. She was sentenced to death, but then recommended clemency solely on account of her sex. So she says in relation to that, I do wish you lot had the decency to shoot me. Which is, you know, again, what they do, in effect, by sort of rounding up so many people and. And putting people in prison, but then releasing them, the British is. They create living martyrs, if you like, who will go on with this power.
- [19:53]
Dermot Ferreter
Yeah, you can see the crowds that turn out to greet Constance Markiewicz when she is released. There are very famous photographs of that. And she's beaming. And you mentioned there, you know, some of her words. She was very good at framing the moment. And these people recognized that they have an opportunity now not just to be defined, but to fashion words for posterity and how they might be remembered. So they're very anxious to take full advantage of that. And obviously, you know, there was a fiercer reaction to the idea of somebody from her background becoming an Irish rebel. And the fact that she's a woman as well gives her an added profile in that sense. She is one of those characters who becomes very famous as a result. But she's also deadly serious, I suppose, about trying to make political capital out of 1916 and becoming involved in the post 1916 dispensation. And there is some confusion about what that might be. I mean, there were 1916 rebels in prison who had no interest in politics. They didn't want to start contesting elections. They didn't necessarily want to challenge the Irish Parliamentary Party on its constitutional turf. They saw themselves as soldiers. And it's an interesting dilemma for Eamon de Valera, who's also, of course, imprisoned after 1916. You know, should they be going down the political path? How should they maximize what has been a change of sentiment very much reflected in the crowds who turn out in 1917, this general amnesty, and again, you know, question marks over the British government's decision to do that. But there's also pressure being exerted on the British government from the likes of John Redmond and constitutional nationalists not to prolong this. And in a way, you know, the sooner you release them, the more opportunity you have to try and dampen this down. But the opposite is the effect.
- [21:30]
William Durample
I mean, but one of the channels of thinking is surely from the British side, is if we have our eyes on them out in the public, we can identify more of the ringleaders. But Indian police intelligence did that when they were following people, and they were pretty good at intelligence.
- [21:44]
Dermot Ferreter
That's a very important point. But what if the rebels who are being watched become more sophisticated in how they manage themselves and their intelligence? And again, it brings us back to this idea of lessons that were learned from 1916. One of the mantras that develops in 1917 within the Republican movement is that it'd be better to kill for Ireland than to die for Ireland. Because if there's an element of sacrifice in 1916, and Pierce in particular was imbued with that notion of blood sacrifice and cleansing through sacrifice, you know, Collins has a very different perspective. Can we develop an effective approach or strategy that doesn't involve us sacrificing ourselves, but involves us being able to identify our enemies and deal with them as we see fit? So there is that change. And, of course, 1917 is also about the craze for Sinn Fein. Sinn Fein becomes a national political movement in 1917.
- [22:37]
William Durample
Yeah, I mean, we should say it means. It translates from the Irish Gaelic, we ourselves. But 1917 is the year that de Valera becomes elected president of sinpei. I mean, it was Arthur Griffith's idea. How did he end up sort of rising to the very top of this?
- [22:50]
Dermot Ferreter
Well, I mean, Arthur Griffith was in a position after 1916 to begin looking at the prospects for developing his small organization into a national organization by capitalizing on the 1916 legacy, partly because of.
- [23:03]
Anita Arnand
The mistaken identity, because the British gave Sinn Fein a bigger role in the rising than they actually had.
- [23:09]
Dermot Ferreter
Yeah, the Sinn Fein rebellion. And Arthur Griffith, who again, is imbued with the effects of 1916 and galvanized by that. But he's also practical enough to know that there are now a variety of different groups who are claiming 1916 for themselves. Can they come under one umbrella? So his mission in 1917 is to try and bring the under one umbrella, the Sinn Fein umbrella. But he also recognizes that de Valera now has the stature as the sole surviving commandant that Arthur Griffith doesn't have. He has the profile that Arthur Griffith doesn't have. They meet for a coffee on Grafton Street, a fashionable thoroughfare on the south side of the city, and they agree that de Valera will become the president. He'll be rubber stamped, of course, by a gathering of delegates of Sinn Fein, and that Arthur Griffin will become his vice president. And that becomes an important partnership in subsequent years. But the leadership of Sinn Fein is effectively settled in 1917. And it's Eamon De Valera, or Dev, as he's popularly known, who is the most important figurehead.
- [24:09]
William Durample
I mean, just to recap, the reason that Dev is out and free is because he was born in America. So that's one thing. And also Demid, you were saying, you know, people put a lot of weight on that. But also, he wasn't one of the key commanders in the 1916 uprising. So he wouldn't necessarily be earmarked.
- [24:24]
Dermot Ferreter
No, I often refer to it as a lottery for leadership. You know, the events of these years, those who survive and those who don't. Sometimes there are people who find themselves in very prominent positions that they would not have expected to find themselves in. But de Valera took to this idea that he had a stature. He's also older than many of those who fought in 1916, so he has a seniority. You mentioned George Bernard Shaw. George Bernard Shaw could sometimes be very acid tongued about Ireland as well as sympathetic. But he did say at one stage, at a much later stage, that Ireland badly needed a schoolmaster and they founder to name a de Valera, because he does have that, too.
- [25:01]
William Durample
We haven't really described him. He's very brilliantly played in the Michael Collins film, if unsympathetically, by Alan Rickman. And actually, you look at photos of him, there is more than a passing resemblance. If Michael Collins is known as the Big Fella he is known as the Longfella because he is tall and skinny and he has that sort of very vulpine kind of face. You know, John Lennon glasses. John Lennon round glasses. He looks sort of almost like a monk, really. You can imagine he's got that austerity about him.
- [25:28]
Dermot Ferreter
What's brilliant, I suppose, about sometimes when new sources become available, is how it makes us think completely differently about austere individuals. There were letters that came to light that Eamon de Valera wrote to his young wife, Sinead, in the early years of their marriage. And he was talking about his longing and his lust and his desire to wrap his long limbs around Sinead. And it conjured up this image of de Valera that we'd never had before. So he was flesh and blood. But you're right, he did have the reputation, too, for being austere and being somewhat aloof. But it also helped him in the sense that Arthur Griffith was referring to him as Ireland's statesman, that he had that authority. But he was also canny enough when he was elected to Parliament in a by election in 1917, to campaign in volunteer uniform. So he wore the uniform of the Irish Volunteers. And he was also suggesting that perhaps another 1916 Rising might not be necessary, but we can't rule it out. And to the accusation that he was radical, he said, all my life I've been associated with priests. So he's playing to different audiences and.
- [26:34]
William Durample
He'S good at that. I mean, they have a leader. You've got a striking figure in the shape of de Valera. What I found quite amusing was that the political aims at this time, even though they've got a strong leader, who's going to be incredibly important. Important is political motives are unclear. So one journalist asks a senior member of Sinn Fein, so, you know, what is it you want? What do you want? And the answer he gets, which he prints, is vengeance, bejesus. And that's it. So, you know, that is yet to develop.
- [27:02]
Dermot Ferreter
But they do commit themselves formally to a formal political program, which is the achievement of an Irish Republic. But there's a recognition that within the broad Sinn Fein movement, there are a variety of different opinions on the constitutional question. And even at a later stage, Michael Collins is asked in 1920 by an American journalist, what do you mean by an Irish Republic? And you know what his response was? None of us have given that very much thought. They associated the Republic with getting Britain out of Ireland, and there was often a reference to them sorting out the finer details after that had happened.
- [27:36]
Anita Arnand
We should say that it's not only Dev who trades on his Easter Rising military uniform. I'm just looking at a whole set of photographs of our friend Constance Markiewicz and she's wearing her hat with a feather on it. She's got a sort of hunting top which she could have used for a hunting party. She's got plus fours and putties. She's wearing putties around the bottom of her legs and she's got her revolver out. She's being photographed in a whole variety of different shots. Some on the ground pointing the revolver and aiming it, some standing up as if sort of doing a hold up and a bang.
- [28:11]
Dermot Ferreter
There's a very careful curating of the image and of the presentation. And we have to remember, I often remind people about the extent of the propaganda war during this revolutionary decade on both sides. You know, you know, Britain can of course do its utmost in terms of the propaganda war and how it might present the Irish question. Irish Republicans become very effective at communicating the message and the images that they want to communicate. And Markievic is very much embracing that.
- [28:39]
William Durample
Absolute poster girl while this is going on. And we should just remind people, because if you've got your focus on Ireland, you perhaps lose what is going on around it, which is World War I and just only a matter of months after the new leadership. And, you know, you've got Sinn Fein being built up into this great thing. You've got a real crisis hitting the Allied forces on the Western front. David Lloyd George is worried about the number of men he's going to need because it has been sort of a meat processing factory on the front with young men dying in enormous numbers. So he decides to introduce a new bill to extend military conscription to Ireland. Now, how exactly do the leaders respond to that? On the one hand, there are a fair few people who are fighting from Ireland already and others who think actually this cause is just, you know, we are fighting a world war. We have a conviction that this is the right fight. So when conscription is extended to you also cover people who don't believe that and don't believe that Britain is worth fighting and dying for. What happens.
- [29:40]
Dermot Ferreter
There is huge anger in Ireland. And what the proposal to extend conscription to Ireland does, it actually unites constitutional nationalists who storm out of the House of Commons, the Irish parliamentary party, Sinn Fein, the Labour movement, who organize a nationwide labour protest and strike, and Sinn Fein. So you have Sinn Fein, you have the labor movement, you have the Catholic Church, you have constitutional nationalists. The Catholic Church went as far as saying Those opposing conscription will be justified in using any means consonant with the laws of God. Now, you can interpret that in different ways, but it created a coalition of disgust. And, of course, the British government recognized that if they were to impose conscription against the will of Ireland and the key sectors of Irish society, it would cause a lot more trouble than it was worth. There were Potentially perhaps over 140,000 Irish conscripts who might come under this proposal, but ultimately and wisely, they abandon it. And even there's criticism in Britain, too, about what is regarded as an act of insanity, even by the Times newspaper. So it does develop that kind of temporary coalition, but it also electrifies the volunteers. And things are rarely linear. You know, for all of the enthusiasm for organizations after the 1916 Rising and the rise of Sinn Fein and the reorganization of the Irish Volunteers, there was something of a lull before that conscription proposal, and that reignited the sense of outrage and the sense of determination to resist it, because many volunteers were really serious in declaring that they would resist enforced conscription with their arms.
- [31:16]
William Durample
You have an Armistice in November 1918, which sort of puts a full stop on the crisis that is inevitably building, and it sort of saves the British government, really, the fact that the war just runs out and stops. But what you do have as a result of all of this, the churn that's been going on in Ireland, is that in December, just a few weeks after the armistice, you have an election where Sinn Fein, in the words of the Times, the Irish Times, swept the board, and the defeat of the Nationalist Party is crushing and final. So, you know, Sinn Fein wins a total of 73 seats, and none of them, for the present, at any rate, will attend the Imperial Parliament. In other words, you know, it's sort of a precedent that lives to this day where, you know, Sinn Fein MPs will not take their seats.
- [32:00]
Dermot Ferreter
And, I mean, they campaigned on abstention. And abstention was a new concept for many of those who were observing politics in Ireland. Sinn Fein had quite a task in explaining why this was the wisest course of action. What Sinn Fein was promising in its manifesto of 1918 was to set up up an alternative parliament in Dublin that they would not attend the British Parliament. Parliamentarianism becomes almost a term of abuse for Sinn Fein. And they really criticize the Irish parliamentary party for being ineffective in addressing Irish concerns in Westminster. And the Irish Parliamentary Party is duly crushed. It should also be remembered that this was the first general election in the UK since 1910, and the electorate has expanded dramatically, including in Ireland, where the electorate, it actually increases from roughly 600,000 to about 1.9 million. So there is a very substantial increase in the electorate. Women over the age of 30 with the requisite property qualifications can vote for the first time. And Sinn Fein goes after that new constituency. So, you know, there is fertile ground there for those who are engaging in Sinn Fein politics and campaigning. And of course, it's a highly unusual election for Sinn Fein in that a number of their candidates are imprisoned or are on the wrong. And there were many constituencies where they didn't face any opposition, such as the momentum behind them. But the key question after the election is, is that mandate going to be recognized? If they have campaigned on the basis of the achievement of an Irish Republic and abstention from Westminster, is Britain going to recognize that? Of course it's not. And it's what happens then a couple of weeks later in January 1919, when Sinn Fein does indeed organize the sitting of an Irish Parliament. Doyle Ayres, as we refer to it, and we to this date still date our parliaments from that first parliament, the Doyle, er, in the Irish Parliament in Dublin in 1919. And what was communicated at that time was a message to the free nations of the world, let's internationalize this question. Sinn Fein even, you know, sought representation at the Paris Peace Conference. I mean, the door was slammed on them. But they are determined to internationalise this question. And there are many journalists present at this first parliament in the Mansion House in Dublin city centre in January 1919. But crucially, what happens on the same day is that Irish volunteers, impatient with the lack of military activity, decide that they are going to begin their own campaign. And this was not something that was authorised by hq. There were restless Irish volunteers in different parts of the country who, again, as I mentioned, are quite cynical about politics. They want to see military action and they fire the first shots in what becomes the War of Independence. And it's at this point that the Irish Volunteers is really evolving into what we know as the Irish Republican Army.
- [34:34]
William Durample
It is a dramatic place to take a break. Join us after the break where we find out what happens after the rise of the ira.
- [34:48]
Anita Arnand
So, welcome back. We saw at the end of the last half how the IRA are now rising up. And at the center of that is our friend Michael Collins. He'd been a relatively fresh face in the Easter Rising, but now he's really getting his genius of organization at work in the military sphere. Tell us what he's involved in, Dermot. What's he up to at this point.
- [35:15]
Dermot Ferreter
Do you know what he was up to, mostly sitting at his desk? We often think of Michael Collins in military uniform, and the most famous images of him are of Collins in military uniform at a later stage. But Collins was primarily a deskman. He was a very effective organizer. As I mentioned before, he had worked in the post Office in Britain and he had honed his administrative skills and he was skilled in that way. And he got very impatient with many of his colleagues. Eamon de Valera wrote to him at one stage during this period and said, michael, God did not give everyone the ordered mind he gave you. And he used that ordered mind to great effect, because let's think of both the political wings and the military wings of the Republican movement, and there was crossover between them, but there was also tension between them. Michael Collins is Minister for Finance within the underground Sinn Fein government. He's also Director of Intelligence for the Irish Republican Army. And there's quite a lot of tension between the Department of Defence within Sinn Fein and the leadership of the ira. We shouldn't think of the War of Independence as involving an overall master plan for the entire country. It was difficult often to control everything that IRA units were doing in different parts of the country, but it was Collins job to try and direct that as much as he could.
- [36:29]
Anita Arnand
Just to clarify this, obviously some of the leaders of the IRA are already in prison and figures like Constance Markovich are still locked up. Is Michael Collins on the run? Is he hiding in people's attics? Or how is he able to be Minister of Finance? He hasn't got an office he can.
- [36:44]
William Durample
Go to and we should remind people why they're in prison. It's part of this German conspiracy. So before the end of the war, these nationalist leaders, Sinn Fein members, are accused of trying to import arms from Germany and therefore assisting the enemy, and that somehow they are traitors. And so when Kon Markowitz is actually elected as the first woman MP in Westminster, she's in Holloway Prison at the time.
- [37:05]
Dermot Ferreter
That's why it was such an unusual election. I mean, there were basically trumped up allegations that there was treasonable communications with the enemy and contact with the enemy. Britain's enemy being, of course, Germany. And over 70 of those Republican leaders were incarcerated. Some of them regarded it as a great advantage at the time and didn't go out of their way to try and avoid imprisonment.
- [37:24]
Anita Arnand
Dev actually welcomed it, didn't he? He was warned he was going to be picked up and allowed himself to be arrested.
- [37:29]
Dermot Ferreter
Yeah. And an opportunity, of course, to win the propaganda War and even campaigning on the basis that, you know, you were imprisoned for your politics as a political prisoner didn't do you any harm either in terms of the profile. So that certainly was a factor. But Collins is, of course, associated with being on the run, too. Not just because of his IRA involvement, but because he is a minister in what is an underground Sinn Fein government, which can't operate as a normal government. And, you know, it has some successes associated with it. There were a number of different government departments. They met in secret, they communicated in secret. Collins becomes very adept, I suppose, at developing networks, as do his colleagues, in relation to how they might communicate during the War of Independence. But he is on the run. You know, Collins famously has a number of close shaves when it comes to escaping arrest. And there was a very significant price on his head. Of course.
- [38:19]
Anita Arnand
There's a very nice story I read. Is it true that they set up courts, Sinn Fein, and at one point they sentence people to imprisonment, but they obviously haven't gone to jail. So they ship them off to an island off the west coast and they're put on the island and the British hear about this and come to try and rescue them. Them. And they refused to be rescued.
- [38:39]
Dermot Ferreter
They started pelting them with stone, saying, we are prisoners of the Irish Republic.
- [38:42]
William Durample
You have no jurisdiction here.
- [38:43]
Dermot Ferreter
What they were trying to do was supplant the British administration in Ireland, and that's why they set up their own courts. Now, most of those courts were designed to settle, you know, more mundane disputes that wouldn't necessarily involve imprisonment. But of course, these courts had to meet in secret, and it was a highly dangerous activity.
- [38:59]
William Durample
So you've got Michael Collins pretty much out on his own because all the other leadership is in prison by their own choice. I mean, they did have intelligence that they could flee arrest, but they chose chose to be arrested so that they could have this powerful showing in the election you mentioned right before the break. And I feel like we need to discuss it more, that the first shots that are fired in what will become an out and out battle in Ireland are not sanctioned by leadership. Just tell us about how this becomes, rather than a parliamentary and a political fight, a fight of guns and bullets.
- [39:32]
Dermot Ferreter
There were members of the Irish Volunteers, which is evolving into the Irish Republican army and becomes known as the Irish Republican army, really from this point, who are very keen to resume military action. And they're somewhat skeptical, if not even cynical about politics. And you've got to try and picture, I suppose, their impatience in relation to what they're watching, they've seen the general election, the success of Sinn Fein. You know, what does it actually mean to them as volunteers who want to be seen to be proactive. And what is done in Tipperary in January 1919 is that the Royal Irish Constabulary are targeted. Now, the Royal Irish Constabulary had been policing Ireland since the 1820s, and the Royal Irish Constabulary, again, was quite a respectable force. It was regarded as a very respectable profession. And what happens in Tipperary in January 1919 is that two members of the Royal Irish Constabulary are targeted because they're transporting gelignite to a local quarry and they are shot dead. It causes horror in Tipperary. And we know that by the contemporary response. And the Royal Irish Constabulary now in the firing line again, is a pivotal development. There are about 14,000 members of the Royal Irish Constabulary at that point. Ultimately, 400 of them lose their lives during the War of Independence. It becomes a very dangerous mission. But they are seen as enemies of the Irish Republic and agents of the British state.
- [40:53]
William Durample
Are they all Protestant or are they. No, they're not.
- [40:55]
Dermot Ferreter
No, far from it. One of the individuals who was shot in January 19th was an Irish speaking Catholic. And again, this was seen as a very wise career to get involved in policing because of the security that it offered, but also the status that it offered. And many of those had been policing a relatively peaceful Ireland prior to this. So they certainly weren't used to this. And it raises the stakes. But it also causes consternation in ghq, the headquarters of the ira, because they have not authorized this and they want to control the pace. So, you know, there's a lot of tension around that. You know, when we think of the War of Independence, it's not linear, it's not straightforward. It's difficult to try and manage the various IRA units as they are developing around the country. And they're also conscious of how these things might be reported outside of Ireland, because one of the traditional British dismissals of Irish Republican activity was that there was no dissipation, that there was no proper hierarchy, that there was no proper leadership, that these were just unruly corner.
- [41:56]
William Durample
Boys, effectively hot heads. Hotheads is what Michael O'Dwyer used to call them. You know, just on really hot heads.
- [42:01]
Dermot Ferreter
So, you know, there's a determination to try and streamline this and to make the IRA an efficient and well controlled organization. But that's never straightforward. There are an awful lot of tensions. Like Richard Mulcahy, who was the commander in chief of the ira, was a stickler, as he would have seen it, for discipline and proper procedures. But he also clashes with the Sinn Fein Minister for Defence, Kahlibruh, who wants to control the ira. So who is in charge of the ira? Remains a question throughout the War of Independence.
- [42:28]
William Durample
But what happens is, I mean, you know, they may be describing them or characterizing them as hotheads, but the British are worried enough about this to actually send an enormous number of recruits, newly, freshly minted recruits, to go and support the Royal Irish Constabulary. And we're talking about 8,000 mainly ex servicemen who are sent from England to serve in Ireland. And this is interesting, too. I mean, their uniforms, you know, they had khaki uniforms with a very distinctive black belt and a green cap. And they become known as the dreaded Black and Tans. And they become then a very visible enemy where the nationalists can then, you know, sort of get themselves together, if you like, a bit, because there's a huge enemy visible there on their doorstep.
- [43:10]
Dermot Ferreter
And they develop a reputation for immense brutality and lack of discipline. Part of that had to do with their frustration because they're used to open warfare. You know, these veterans have just come back, but they're not used to attack and retreat. They're not used to the guerrilla tactics of the ira, and they feel very vulnerable as a result. But they're the Black and Tans. There's also a more senior group, the ex officers, the auxiliaries, as they are known. They're paid more, and their mission is to take the war to the Iraq. And again, questions about control of them and discipline. And I suppose we have more of awareness now of what some of them would have been through in relation to their experiences during the war and what that did to them. But there were also many who didn't know where they were. They weren't familiar with Ireland. They didn't obviously understand the nuances of what was going on and what their actual mission was, given that it was a different type of warfare. And again, the IRA becomes quite adept at honing this ability to attack and retreat so that even though they have smaller numbers, because ultimately, you know, by the end of the War of Independence, There are over 40,000 British Crown forces in Ireland. The IRA numbers are much smaller, but they're able to inflict considerable damage.
- [44:22]
William Durample
I have a question, because you've been looking into archives and some of which have only been newly released, there is this idea that terrible things happen in Dublin Castle at this time when the blackened hands are exceeding their remit, that there are summary punishments, tortures, floggings going on behind closed doors and how much of that is true and how much of that is propaganda?
- [44:42]
Dermot Ferreter
A lot of it is true. I mean, there's no doubt that there were vicious beatings, there were intimidatory tactics. There was huge resentment at the Irish as a race. You know, and you can see this as well, that, you know, they're carrying on that tradition, you could argue, of considerable ignorance about Ireland, but also a belief that, well, all the Irish are wild and all the Irish are uncivilized and all the Irish are rebels. Therefore, the only language they understand is the language of brute force. An awful lot of that went on, there's no doubt about that.
- [45:11]
William Durample
So when we're talking about sort of raids in homes and sort of turfing out women and children, there are stories about house burning.
- [45:17]
Dermot Ferreter
Oh, there's no doubt about that. I mean, that is very well documented. You know, Sinn Fein were very adept at propaganda, too. They had what was called the Irish Bulletin, which is a summary from their perspective what's going on in Ireland that they send to hundreds of newspapers around the world. So the propaganda war is an important part of that. Erskine Childress, who we mentioned before, was a part of that. So at times, of course, it's exaggerated for particular audiences. But you also, I suppose, have to recognize the extent to which the War of Independence causes huge upheaval for ordinary people in relation to curfews and them going about their business and being victims of house raids and so on, because they are looking for rebels, and there.
- [45:54]
William Durample
Are rebels who are doing them great damage, as you say, the guerrilla tactics. And while all of this is going on, you've got de Valera in an English prison. But. But. But in February 1919. And I really want to know the truth of this because it's so. It's so fantastical. He manages to escape. Now, is it true that he manages to escape because he quite blatantly draws a cartoon of the key that he needs on a postcard of a key, a giant key going into a door. And then his supporters outside fashion it. You know, they sort of mould it in clay and they make a key and he can get away. Is that right?
- [46:28]
Dermot Ferreter
It is right. And.
- [46:30]
William Durample
Oh, my God. Oh, my God, it's so cute.
- [46:31]
Dermot Ferreter
He escaped while dressed as a woman. But, you know, this was a very serious development in relation to what de Valera was going to do next. You know, never mind the. The drama of the escape. And de Valera, of course, goes to America. Now, what was he going to America for? He was going ultimately to gain recognition for the Irish Republic. The U.S. house of Representatives is very sympathetic to the cause of the Irish Republic. The presidency isn't Woodrow Wilson.
- [46:59]
William Durample
Wilson isn't, but he thinks he'll walk in. He thinks he can either meet Woodrow Wilson or the opposition and he will have some kind of high table setting.
- [47:07]
Dermot Ferreter
He has an immense sense of his own stature. He is styled now as the President of the Irish Republic. Some recognize that. Cause many don't. And if you go to somewhere like Fenway park in Boston, for example, you know, you'll see this extraordinary crowd responding to De Valera and East Coast America. It can become more complicated. When he embarks on the wider tour, he does raise a lot of money in the region of $5 million. And he does make an awful lot of speeches in which he invokes Wilson and Wilsonian rhetoric and the rights of small countries. But I mean, Wilson was never going to complicate his relationship with Britain.
- [47:39]
William Durample
I mean, there's a sort of the realpolitik of all this, but just a little bit more on the kind of thing. It is extraordinary the number of people who come to De Valera in America. You know, it's such a successful tour. So in March of 1920, he's in New York and he sees this greatest parade of unity where, and I'm just reading from the accounts in the newspapers, Protestants, Indians and the Scotch march together. And here's a little bit of it. A band of dark skinned Hindu men and women, their ranks literally entwined in the booming folds of the Stars and Stripes in the tricolor of Ireland. Their proud bearing, endorsing emblem. 315,000 in India are with Ireland to the last. I've done a lot about, you know, this period of time because it is straight after the massacre in Amritsar. There is a movement of rebels in America at this time, Punjabi who are fleeing British rule and British prisons, who wash up in San Francisco called the Gar movement. And they managed to find their way to De Valera and say, you are our hero. And in Sikhism, you know, there's nothing no higher accolade than giving one of these delvage, you know, sword. And they give it to De Valera. And from that moment on, there begins this very, very important relationship between the Irish nationalists and Indian nationalists where they are watching everything to the point where, you know, sort of in 1920 you have a mutiny in India. An Irish contingent decides that they're going to mutiny. And the Indians are watching this and go, you know what? They're our brothers. We could do something together. We could learn from this. And every time, and particularly after 1990, you get Irish Republican publications, Young Ireland and so on, saying, you know, this is what they're like, the British, we've seen it and now the Indians are seeing it. But like us, the Indians are going to win one day.
- [49:27]
Dermot Ferreter
That was also part of that mission I mentioned to internationalize the Irish question and develop ties and allegiances and affinities in relation to other oppressed people within the empire. And you also, of course, have the endurance of those ties. You know, I mean, Eamon de Valera, decades later is visiting Prime Minister Nehru. And again, the reiteration of the idea that there is a particular affinity or bond between them. But there's also the scale of the Irish American community. Two out of every five Irish born people lived abroad by 1890 as a result of the developments in the 19th century. Some of them now have very deep pockets and there is an opportunity to do that. But we also need to acknowledge what was behind the headlines and these marvelously successful marches and speeches. And that was infighting amongst the Irish American groups. Because de Valera arrives over as the savior, as the high profile figure. But there are well established Irish American groups who resent his prominence and his determination to try and fashion the Irish American organizations around himself. So, you know, we do have an awful lot of tensions as well. And Arthur Griffith is looking after the stable at home and he's writing to Irish Americans saying, you know, would you stop all of this infighting? You know, you're undermining, meaning the President, de Valera's visit and so on. So, you know, there are difficulties. And Harry Boland was a Sinn Fein member who traveled with Eamon de Valerae. He was like his bodyguard and his butler and his.
- [50:50]
William Durample
Oh, he's Aiden Quinn in the movie. I mean, let's just shortcut it. The beautiful Aidan Quinn plays him in the Michael Collins.
- [50:56]
Dermot Ferreter
Harry was a handsome man himself and had been a former athlete. But again, he writes very revealingly in his diary about de Valere and how frustrated he gets with with them. Because one of the things that this visit does to de Valera is it increases what is already a considerably sized ego. Think of the adulation and the fame and the profile that he has. And it does mean that de Valera is not necessarily open to other ideas or other people's views. And Harry Boland also got tired of carrying around all these books that Eamon de Valera was reading because of course, he retained that sense of the schoolmaster so there's an interesting mix there, Dermot.
- [51:33]
Anita Arnand
Let's take it back now to Dublin and what Michael Collins is up to while Dev is in America. Now, the British have got their intelligences all over Dublin and all over Ireland. The G Men who are keeping files on all the revolutionaries, on all the potential enemies as they see it, out in the streets of Dublin. And Michael Collins is learning from them and beginning to accumulate files himself, and he's beginning to spy on the spies. Tell us about this.
- [52:08]
Dermot Ferreter
Yeah. And, I mean, that is a crucial development that also involves, of course, getting people on the inside over to your side. If you can get some people to break ranks who have access to British intelligence information. In other words, if you have spies in the castle, you will be assisted in that process of developing a serious intelligence network. And the intelligence war, of course, is a very important layer of the Irish War of Independence. The Irish had considerable successes in relation to that, but also setbacks.
- [52:40]
Anita Arnand
Yeah. Tell us. Bloody Sunday. This is the November 1920.
- [52:43]
Dermot Ferreter
You know, there was a determination to try and take out those who were regarded as secret agents, not all who were shot on bloody Sunday. Some 14 of them were indeed secret agents. Most of them were. And the logic was to wipe them out before they got to us. It was that brutal. And then there was the reaction to that.
- [53:02]
Anita Arnand
That's an extraordinary and unprecedented moment, that they're sending out assassins in a coordinated fashion. They've got the addresses of these people. They're knocking on the doors or getting in the back gardens, jumping over walls, going up and shooting them as they're getting up in the morning.
- [53:15]
Dermot Ferreter
Yeah. And sometimes shooting them in their bed. It was a really brutal and bloody business. Many of those who shot the guns on Bloody Sunday morning were also very young.
- [53:23]
William Durample
I mean, little children. There's a great book by Tim Coogan I've been reading about the 12 apostles. You know, that they are sent out to create mayhem. That is their sort of credo. And some of them are no more than children.
- [53:34]
Dermot Ferreter
When I grew up in. In the 1980s, we used to look at Robert Key's Television History of Ireland, and because of the time that was made, he was able to interview some of the veterans. And Vinnie Byrne, who was one of the apostles, for example, he was only a teenager and he spoke about, you know, as an older man, about plugging these individuals. He. He spoke about it in a very heroic way. But we know that for some of those involved, it caused them deep trauma. Now, that's no comfort, of course, to those who were killed. In their family members. But there was a narrative that developed afterwards that simplified an awful lot of what was involved. But the reaction then to Bloody Sunday, the killings were revenge killings at a Gaelic Athletic association matching Croke park. That became known, of course, as Bloody Sunday.
- [54:20]
Anita Arnand
Now, in the movie, this is one of the most criticized scenes because it turns it into something on the scale of Amritsar, where you have armoured cars entering the football match and opening fire with automatic weapons and blocking the exit.
- [54:33]
William Durample
So you can't get out and firing on people who are peaceably going around their business.
- [54:37]
Dermot Ferreter
Yeah, what actually happened, it was mayhem. And I mean, it was all over very, very quickly. It was revenge and it was a mixture of those British forces I mentioned, as well as the Royal Irish Constabulary and those who were augmenting them. They were hell bent on revenge. There was carnage and it was referred to in contemporary press coverage in those terms. But it was also something that didn't have that degree of orchestration that you might get on screen depictions of it.
- [55:04]
Anita Arnand
What are the scale of the casualties at the football match?
- [55:07]
Dermot Ferreter
There were 14 that were shot dead. And then there were others, obviously, who were very badly injured. Some of those who killed, of course, again, this comes back to the civilian casualties and the toll that it took, who were just there as spectators as a match. They weren't making a political statement, but.
- [55:21]
William Durample
There were women and children in their number.
- [55:23]
Dermot Ferreter
But, I mean, some of those who were involved in the GAA did have Sinn Fein links. But that indiscriminate shooting, which is what it was, that's what it results in. And again, the question that is being raised internationally in the aftermath of this is what is British government strategy in Ireland? Because David Lloyd George's British Prime Minister had famously said, we have murder by the throat. Well, an event like Bloody Sunday did not suggest that they were in control of the Irish situation. So it did increase the pressure. But it was also an indication of how things could go badly wrong for the Republican movement in terms of the toll that it was taking on the civilian population. So there are pressures on both sides as a result of Bloody Sunday. The British authorities were never able to quite completely crush the Irish Republican intelligence effort, but there were limitations to it as well. And I don't think it's any coincidence that towards the end of 1920, there is reference in the British Foreign Office to the slender links that had been established with Arthur Griffith, who was regarded as one of the more moderate of the Sinn Fein leaders. And clearly there is a possibility of opening up some kind of Dialogue or channels of communication. Such was the scale of the impact of the war by the end of 1920.
- [56:41]
Anita Arnand
So tell us how the war begins to boil down to a ceasefire and a truce towards what, 1920, 1921.
- [56:52]
Dermot Ferreter
There was a very interesting senior British civil servant, Warren Fisher, from the British treasury, who was charged with the task of reviewing the operations from Dublin Castle. And he did this in the spring of 1920 and suggested that the approach of Dublin Castle was almost woodenly stupid and devoid of imagination. And what he was suggesting was that too many officials in Dublin Castle did not understand the Irish situation that they were dealing with, that they didn't recognize what was propelling Irish Republican sentiment, and they didn't recognize the nature of the conflict that they were engaged in because they were too blinded, perhaps by their own snobbery or their own prejudices. Now that, I think, remains relevant. How do you read the Irish Republican as a broad movement? Are they all of the same milk and of the same attitude? Is there a possibility that some of the more moderate voices that we could open up channels of communication? How long can the IRA last? Does it have access to enough arms? Do we still, as a British government, want to keep deploying British troops? It's estimated the War of Independence was costing The British government £20 million, pounds a year. Was that justified in terms of the return? And you also have a British government, you know, was Lloyd George going to listen to the more moderate voices? What were his instincts? All of these factors are swirling around. Michael Collins, too, and others in the IRA are wondering, whilst, you know, they have had some successes, how long can they sustain this? So there's a variety of different elements that are relevant there. And by the end of 1920, you know, there is a sense, perhaps a turning point has been reached, but it doesn't develop sufficient momentum in early 1921 because of a fear of being seen to compromise.
- [58:28]
William Durample
Well, that's a question we're going to answer in the next episode. Thank you again for just being such a stellar guest. But, you know, if you want to listen to that next episode right now, you know what you have to do. EmpirePoduk.com EmpirePoduk.com is where you'll be able to hear it right now if you're a member of the club, but if you're not, that's okay. We'll see you at the usual time. Till we meet again. It's goodbye from me, Anita Arnan, and.
- [58:53]
Anita Arnand
Goodbye from me, William Durample.