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- [00:01]
Anita Anand
If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter. Sign up to empire club@www.empirepoduk.com.
- [00:29]
William Dalrymple
Well, hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Arnan and me, William Durimple. So previously, if you're just joining us, and you know, if you heard this before, it was a very odd story. Okay, so what you have is a situation in China where you have a man called Charles Elliot who is in charge of trade with China, but really not really in charge at all because the main trade that is going on is the opium trade. And the opium trade is run by this couple of Scottish ruffians called Jardine and Matheson, who pretty much laugh into their sleeves at anything Elliot has to say. He's a weak chinned Elliot sitting in Macau who just doesn't really like conflict. He's very conflict averse.
- [01:08]
Anita Anand
He's a good man, he's a nice man freeing slaves in West Africa.
- [01:13]
William Dalrymple
He's a nice man and he's just not the kind of person to, you know, square up to Jardine and Matheson. You know, they have these sort of gangs of brigands. They're fully tooled up, they don't really listen to him.
- [01:25]
Anita Anand
They are the Pablo Escobar of 19th century China.
- [01:28]
William Dalrymple
Yeah, but they're doing it from the British factory in Canton, which is, you know, supposedly sort of British soil. Although it isn't because the Chinese don't let Britain buy the soil that they've put their factory on, it still belongs to China. All the people working in there for the British, boiling their eggs and starching their collars, they're all Chinese. All the guards around it, they're Chinese as well. So it comes in the last episode to a head Commissioner Lin, who's this one fine, upstanding Chinese Mandarin, polite, efficient, hard working, but made of sterner stuff than Elliot in many way. Elliot quite decent, but in ways unlike Elliot, made of steel. Because he's been sent with this mandate to stop the opium trade. Opium is destroying China and they've had enough of it. So despite the fact, initially he says we can maybe legalize this and then maybe we can make the money, we can grow the poppies ourselves. That gets shot down. And he goes, let's just destroy the opium trade first of all, let's destroy the buyers, which is you give people a year to get clean and if they're still using you, execute them. It's pretty draconian stuff. And then he goes after the suppliers, and the suppliers are all in this sort of British compound, which is, you know, sort of cornered the trade. And we got to this point of impasse. It's sort of like high noon at the OK Corral, where he surrounded, you know, the Jardine and Matheson compound, as it pretty much is now, and said, you hand over all your opium or we're going to hang these people right in front of your eyes. These are the Chinese that you've been doing business with who've been getting very, very wealthy off the back of this. Your friends. We will kill them. And then let's see what happens. And Lyn then sort of follows this up by writing directly to Queen Victoria saying, look, no, not your fault. And it's not you.
- [03:17]
Anita Anand
You're an ignorant Ferrari. You don't know it's them.
- [03:20]
William Dalrymple
But you know what? We're not having this. And consider this a warning. This is the end of that. We're drawing a line. And it all starts ratcheting up and ratcheting up until Elliot rides in to the rescue, a decent man, but somehow manages to carry this off, where he says, you know what? Just hand in all of your opium, okay? All of it, and the British Crown will pay for it. He hasn't asked anybody.
- [03:44]
Anita Anand
He has no idea how much this is all worth.
- [03:46]
William Dalrymple
No waft of this has got to Palmerston or anybody else. And he said, well, you know, we'll just buy it. Just stop it. You know, you'll make your profits. Just stop being silly. Stop being so silly. Now. We're not going to have a fight. We've got a gunship, but we're not going to use it. That's silly. And so he offers this deal. And the reason we laughed so much is because the opportunists around, like the Americans who've just pretty recently got independence from the British, are sort of very quickly rubbing off their American flags from their crates.
- [04:17]
Anita Anand
This is British opium.
- [04:18]
William Dalrymple
This is British opium. Queen Victoria's mind. It is a bill of $10 million.
- [04:24]
Anita Anand
In the early 19th century.
- [04:25]
William Dalrymple
Add four noughts for any government. This is an. Especially if you consider that the op trade is the furnace that is driving the machine of British India. This is all just catastrophic. So that's where we left it. William Durand, where are we picking up these reins from now?
- [04:44]
Anita Anand
Charles Eliot has issued this iou and now he has to break it to the British government that they're going to have to pay for it.
- [04:51]
William Dalrymple
That is a Conversation I would like to have heard, actually, very much so, yes.
- [04:56]
Anita Anand
And he writes a letter arguing that failing to pay up could trigger what he calls a commercial convulsion in the Indian trade. And the British view is that although it's morally dubious, the opium trade has been effectively allowed to exist by Chinese authorities, forever tolerated in reality, if not in law, because they've never done anything about it. And therefore this sudden and forceful seizure is seen as an unwarranted act. But ahead of the IOU goes William Jardine. Jardine and Matheson are always the troublemakers in this story. In 1839, William Jardine realising now that there's going to be an issue in the repayment because the figures are so much larger than anyone had anticipated, $10 million.
- [05:47]
William Dalrymple
And also that his opium is at the bottom of the sea, because, you know, let's not forget Commissioner Lynn has just dumped it all into the ocean and written a nice poem apologizing to the water. It's not coming back. He's out of pocket.
- [05:58]
Anita Anand
And William Jardine hasn't become as rich as he is without being an operator. And he realizes at this point what is needed is someone in London lobbying the government. And so in a very sort of modern twist, he actually gets on a boat, goes back to London from China, takes $20,000 with him because Matheson has advised him that what he really needs to do is now start creating what, propaganda, effectively in the newspapers.
- [06:27]
William Dalrymple
Oh, cause a ruckus, get the British.
- [06:29]
Anita Anand
People behind you, get the Daily Mail of its day out and about. And so he takes $20,000 to London specifically to buy journalists who will get opinion pieces in the newspapers and get everybody working. And the guy who's writing most vociferously is an ex East India Company hand who's another Scotsman, part of the same group of Scots near Duwen.
- [06:56]
William Dalrymple
Cabal man.
- [06:57]
Anita Anand
And this is a guy called Hugh Hamilton Lindsay, who is one of the Lindsay family from Fife.
- [07:04]
William Dalrymple
Are they related, William? Tell us about.
- [07:06]
Anita Anand
Well, I hate to say so, yes.
- [07:07]
William Dalrymple
Bloody hell.
- [07:09]
Anita Anand
And they're always getting caught up in situations with my family. For example, there was a James Lindsay who ended up in Tippu's prison with various ancestors of mine in another sort of tight corner. Anyway, Hugh Hamilton Lindsay is basically, at this point in the story, William Jardine's sort of PR man, his PR agent in London, starts writing all these opinion pieces in the Times and in other English newspapers arguing that, and here's a quote, that a despotic and arbitrary government that had always been unjust and oppressive in their treatment of foreigners, had deprived innocent Britons of their liberty, debarred them from food and water, threatened their lives dearly. Will they pay for the insults and outrages offered to the British nation? So that's really throwing the kind of.
- [07:57]
William Dalrymple
I mean, it hits all the buttons, doesn't it? Absolutely, it does.
- [08:01]
Anita Anand
A very modern, tabloidy piece. And Jardine's paying for this. He's got a war chest which he's paying like some sort of Tory donor pulling out Brexit editorials just at the moment that it's needed, or founding some dodgy right wing radio station or TV station to throw out this propaganda. It works because listening to all this, and very much of the same temperament is this character, Lord Palmerston. He is the ultimate sort of British bulldog of the early 19th century.
- [08:34]
William Dalrymple
He's one of those Anglo Irish peers, a viscount. So he's sort of very blue blooded. The Temple family is his family. So they've got power and they've got influence. And he begins his parliamentary career as a Tory MP in 1807 and he's held some really high offices as well. He's a very grand man. He's a man with a great sense of his own importance and he has been Junior Lord of the Admiralty, he served as Secretary of War. He's a big deal. He switches allegiances. Interestingly, I do know a bit about Palmerston because he just flips over to the Whigs in 1830 and as a reward, if you like, for flipping parties, he is made foreign secretary in 1839. So, you know, his tendency is swift and considerable.
- [09:18]
Anita Anand
He is a great defender of British, as he sees it, defender of British rights, defender of British interests. Any British citizen should be able to claim that, like a Roman citizen once had, that he could just step out and therefore he is exactly the right man for Jardine and Matheson to home in on soon enough. He's after being turned down on the first few requests, William Jardine is in his study feeding him all this directly and advising him what to do. And what Jardine and Matheson want is they want a full scale war. They want to send gunboats, they want to send a fleet to China and they tell Palmerston that it'd be a very easy thing. They have this very dim view of the Chinese. They're saying that it will take absolutely nothing.
- [10:05]
William Dalrymple
It'll be over by Christmas, it'll be over by Christmas.
- [10:08]
Anita Anand
There will be no effective response from the Chinese and we can have the right to sell what we like. Where we can open up all the ports, we can grab a few territories, we could get that island, Hong Kong. And he's feeding all this Pumston, who is absolutely already lapping it up, lapping it up. Also in Jardine and Matheson's favor is the Cabinet at this point. Among the people there is our old enemy Macaulay, who we last met in the Irish Famine episode of the Irish series. If you remember, Macaulay's brother in law, Duke Charles Trevelyan, was the man responsible for not sending aid to the starving Irish. And Macaulay also is exactly the sort of person who loves beating up some natives, as he sees it, extending British influence and showing the power of the British. So Jardine and Matheson, who want a war, find they've got a cabinet who, in part at least, is very much on their side, and they feed this line to Palmerston and his fellow hawks that a little show of force, you don't even need to send a huge fleet. A little show of force will make the Chinese back down and that they will provide all the ports, all the facilities that we need. We can get opium legalized once and for all, get this trade going again and recover the money. Otherwise, he says, where are you going to get this 10 million from?
- [11:31]
William Dalrymple
What are you going to do? We're still on the hook for 10 million. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [11:36]
Anita Anand
Even for a government at the peak of British power, this is not a sum that's easy to whip out of the budget.
- [11:43]
William Dalrymple
So, I mean, this has a phrase that we've all come to know now. And I wonder if the origins are from this conflict, which is gunship diplomacy, which is where you put your biggest cannons and your biggest guns around and then you say, you know what, let's talk now.
- [11:56]
Anita Anand
This is absolutely Palmerston's modus Vivivendi. He is Mr. Gunship.
- [12:00]
William Dalrymple
You know, Jardine a clever man, though, to sort of buy off editors and start getting this stuff seeded, and also, presumably to give a wholly inaccurate account of, you know, sort of men starving to death in whatever the Chinese version of the Black Hole of Calcutta is. I mean, he will paint a picture, won't he? If they're. They didn't get food, they didn't get water. You were saying, you know, chickens were coming regularly, chickens were coming in, pigs.
- [12:23]
Anita Anand
Everything was being let in the back quietly.
- [12:24]
William Dalrymple
Yeah, they just didn't know how to cook it as well as their Chinese cooks. And, you know, they had to pull up their own stockings. But we weren't in a starvation situation. But that is the imagery that he has come with and that's what's inflamed the people.
- [12:37]
David McCloskey
And.
- [12:37]
William Dalrymple
And then given already a hawkish Palmerston, his causus bellae, or at least causus gunship diplomacy, ay, whatever that is in Latin.
- [12:47]
Anita Anand
Now, there are a few voices against this because even in the early 19th century, even at the height of British imperialism, there are many people in Britain who regard the opium trade as an abomination. And among those arguing that the British have got no right at all to demand compensation is our old friend George Staunton. Do you remember George Staunton from. Remember George Staunton, the embassy story, the McCartney embassy. So this is young George Staunton who had been reciting, who'd been trying to speak perfect Chinese at the age of 11.
- [13:19]
William Dalrymple
Yes, he was doing. Yes, that's right. They took him on as a. He was a translator who may have over egged his CV a little bit about just, just how much he knew. Now little George has grown up into big George Thornton and he's saying, no, this is not. I don't recognize this.
- [13:34]
Anita Anand
And he's an mp. He's apparently the worst speaker in Parliament. He can't get words out at all any better than he could do with the Chinese emperor. He's better on the floor of the House, but he is regarded as the kind of the great Chinese expert. He's the only person in Parliament who's been to China and he speaks Chinese and by this stage, probably now he does. Back to work in the factory. Now he does, yeah. He is very clear that the British have no right to ask this compensation. Others who are arguing that the opium trade is an abomination which the British cannot go to war to defend. An illegal trade with a drug that poisons the people. There's also a whole group of people in Parliament and the Cabinet who point out the financial costs and the risks of the war. This is the largest empire in the world. Remember that at this point the British are having a very uphill struggle in Afghanistan. It hasn't yet turned into the catastrophe it will do in 1842 when an entire British army is lost, retreating from Kabul. But it's already been clear that by the end of 1839 that it's going to be an expensive and difficult thing to hold and it's not the moment to start sending more flee to other ends of the world in more dubious missions. Then there's a whole group of people in Parliament that point out that there's a perfectly peaceful resolution possible. You don't need to start sending war fleets to literally the other end of the world in order to negotiate with people who many people in Europe regard as a model state which has kept the largest empire in the world for many, many centuries.
- [15:03]
William Dalrymple
Yeah, I mean, just. Just pause there. Just remind people just before you carry on, because there are two narratives about China, and we talked about this at the beginning of this series. The one which is, you know, comes out from the 1700s onwards, where the tastes for Chinese goods is chinoiserie. And you have, you know, people writing a Voltaire, writing about what civilized people. These are the absolute height of civilization. They're really, you know, people we need to emulate. And then you've got the Jardine and Matheson version, which becomes all pervasive that these guys are, you know, they're less than us, they're savages, really. They don't know how to run their own country. They're all corrupt, they're all venal. And it is the struggle of these two ideologies. So it is almost like Newspeak, you know, we just forget all that you thought about the Chinese, everything that you've ever said about the Chinese. Great Britain. I know you've liked them in the past, but that's not what the imagery is. So it really is a very contemporary picture. This. This is a propaganda war that's going on about China. Exactly.
- [15:57]
Anita Anand
And we should say that one of the people who's very active at this point in Parliament against a British intervention is William Gladstone, who we also met behaving very well, uniquely with the Irish, in a period when the British behaved very badly to the Irish on their rights. Gladstone was a voice of moderation. And here he is again now in Parliament, and he makes these fantastic speeches. He says, I'm in dread of the judgments of God upon England for our national iniquity towards China. And he's very clear, the British are poisoning the Chinese people. This is an unjust war. There is absolutely no reason. But he's not in power. Palmerston is.
- [16:38]
William Dalrymple
Palmerston is in power. He's also a better speaker than George Staunton, to be fair. And people listen to Gladstone generally sort of nod off or go to the loo when he's speaking, but the wind is not behind him, it is behind Palmerston.
- [16:49]
Anita Anand
Exactly. So egged on by Jardine and Matheson, particularly Jardine, who's now actually got access, Elon Musk, like, into the study of power, the equivalent of the Oval office. And in August 1839, it goes to the Cabinet, what are we actually going to do? Can we just repay these traders with our own money? And of course, the Prime Minister doesn't want to do that. He doesn't want to go to the people and tell them that he's paying $10 million for some illegal opium that you can't sell to the electorate, can't.
- [17:18]
William Dalrymple
Sell it to anyone, it's at the bottom of the ocean. It's not going to be sold to anyone in particular.
- [17:22]
Anita Anand
And Palmerston characteristically favors a forceful response to protect British interests. Not, he says, it's not about the opium, this is about British honor. But he plays that card. He says in the language of hawks at all periods of history that the Chinese need to be taught a lesson and they need to pay for the destroyed op. And there's a little bit of disagreement in the cabinet. But McCawley comes to Palmerston's aid. He's the young kid in the block, he's just his first time in the Cabinet, he's just got in there. And he immediately clings to Palmerston and encourages the war. And so the settlement, the compromise, is that they will send a naval squadron, but it will be of limited size. So they're going to send a small squadron in order to obtain reparations from China for Commissioner Lin's bad treatment of Charles Elliot and other British subjects. That's how it's been framed. Yes.
- [18:22]
William Dalrymple
And also there's a quote from Palmerston. The way Palmerston reads this is obviously through the filter of Jardine. He says, you know, talking about Commissioner Lyn, he says he refused to grant Elliot the power necessary to control the British subjects within the dominions of China. Just break that down for a second. Eliot did have the power. No one listened to him, first of all. And the second, you know, within the dominions of China, he's saying a Chinese, the Chinese authority have no right to say anything within their own dominion. It is, it's a real sea change in foreign policy and it is going to grate against a lot of people. Nevertheless, the ships are on their way. How many ships? I mean, what are we talking about? What's sent out here?
- [19:02]
Anita Anand
The decision made is that because there's opposition in Parliament, they're not going to send a massive fleet, but they're going to send a small squadron. And among the vessels that are going to be sent is the world's very first all iron war steamer, which is called the Nemesis. And no one's ever seen a ship like this before. This is the. What's the kind of stealth bomber or something. It's a completely new generation of warship. And remember that at this point, the Chinese have just got wooden junks. And so you've got this sort of sinister vessel that the Chinese called the Devil ship, which they're putting into action. It's the latest technology. And the hope is, in the brief discussion that is given to this matter in Parliament, that sending a limited naval squadron will be enough to put enough pressure on to get the money out of the Chinese and repay the British government for all the opium that's been taken. They also realize that they can call in troops from India.
- [20:04]
William Dalrymple
India. India's not that far away. I was just thinking Elliot's family member, you know, he's not far away. He can dispatch. And they've got lots of people in India.
- [20:12]
Anita Anand
Exactly. So the order is sent to the government of India to support this squadron with East India Company forces. So we suddenly find lots of Sikhs, lots of Punjabis being added to this force. The manpower is Indian, the fleets are from England. And they make this decision in just three quarters of an hour. And they all pat each other on the back.
- [20:38]
William Dalrymple
Well, there's some really appalling things. They're sort of jokingly talking to each other about this, clearly not taking this very seriously. Also convinced of, you know, the turning up of the Targaryen dragon at the gates, that everything's gonna cave in just at the sight of the nemesis, that they sort of are saying to each other, we have just made war on the master of one third the whole human race. I mean, so there is this nervousness.
- [21:01]
Anita Anand
They've already seen that Afghanistan is putting up a much greater resistance than they had planned. And now they're taking on, you know, something far greater than Afghanistan, this enormous empire in China. And they, they've never, you know, made war on China before. They don't know what Chinese troops are going to be like, what, you know, it's like playing a, a football match with a team that you have no, no knowledge of. And, and this is one third of the human race, an empire the size of Europe. But the decision is made and because they've given the whole day for discussing this, imagining that it might be such a contentious issue that they would be debating into the night. But it's over by about three in the afternoon and Lord Broughton decides that it's a nice day, so he goes off for a two hour horseback ride with Queen Victoria through Windsor park to tell her the latest update on this small crisis. The rain comes and closes play on their r but the decision is made. Gladstone is furious when he hears this. In the next debate in Parliament, he states that a war more unjust in its origin, a war more calculated in its progress, to cover this country with permanent disgrace I do not know of and have never read of.
- [22:15]
William Dalrymple
Let's take a break. Join us after the break when we find out what happens when the nemesis reaches Chinese waters.
- [22:25]
Anita Anand
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- [23:24]
David McCloskey
Empire I'm David McCloskey, former CIA analyst turned spy novelist.
- [23:31]
Gordon Carrera
And I'm Gordon Carrera, national security journalist.
- [23:33]
David McCloskey
And together we're the hosts of the Rest Is Classified, where we bring you brilliant stories from the world of spies.
- [23:39]
Gordon Carrera
This week, we're talking about one of the most significant stories of the 21st century, Edward Snowden, and how he orchestrated the biggest leak of classified secrets in modern American and British history.
- [23:49]
David McCloskey
Snowden revealed that the American government was mass collecting data on its own citizens. And it was really the first time that Americans and so many others around the world understood the extent of the US Government's mass surveillance.
- [24:02]
Gordon Carrera
That's right. It's a story I covered at the time. And it also really gets to wider questions about what privacy means, how technology has changed our lives, and what the government and and companies can do with data we might have thought was private.
- [24:14]
David McCloskey
And we'll take you through the whole story, from Snowden's early career in the CIA and the NSA to his life in exile in Russia.
- [24:22]
Gordon Carrera
So to hear more, search for the Rest Is Classified wherever you get your podcasts.
- [24:32]
William Dalrymple
Welcome back. Okay, so the nemesis, this ironclad gunship the people have never seen the like of before. The devil ship is in Chinese water. What is going on on the Chinese side? At what point do they know that this is what the British Parliament has decided with the blessing, it would seem, of the Queen, you know, to just take off and it's a declaration of war. They must have seen it as that, or what do they think?
- [24:56]
Anita Anand
But they're not at all worried as they've seen it, or certainly, as Commissioner.
- [24:59]
William Dalrymple
Lynn sees it, those guys in the factory weren't much to worry about.
- [25:03]
Anita Anand
Yeah, they've caved in over five days that they are barbarians from the other side of the world. We have no need of their manufacturers. They have need of us. And so Commissioner Lynn is. Thinks that we, you know, that we've got to be very nice to these foreigners. We've shown them their place. And then he writes a private dispatch to the emperor. And it's very interesting what he says. He. He basically says there's absolutely nothing to worry about. After I arrived in Canton, I investigated the feelings of the foreigners. On the outside, they seem intractable, but inside they are cowardly. If in future we fear them setting off border provocations, the ulcer of trouble they bring will grow day by day. They are in the minority, and we must not forget we are the majority. Though their ships are strong and their guns quick, they can be only victorious at sea. They cannot play their tricks in the port. And Guangdong Canton is well fortified, although there have been some ups and downs so far. The situation as a whole is under control. And he writes that those that went on smuggling were courting destruction, and they could easily be destroyed by the fire rafts and the militia that he's hired from the local fishing populations. He's saying we don't even need to send troops from the center, just the local militia will do. And then he writes another letter. On the 1st of September. He doubles down on his idea that the British are absolutely nothing to be feared. He says despite their guns, the foreign soldiers are not skilled at infantry engagements. And then he gives his reasoning. Their legs and feet, he says, are closely bound by tight trousers, which makes bending and stretching inconvenient. When they reach the shore, they are less powerless and their strength can easily be controlled.
- [26:52]
William Dalrymple
Well, see, until this point, I thought Lyn was an intelligent man. I mean, he sounds like an idiot. He just doesn't understand, does he, that actually, when it comes to naval prowess, the Brits have a reputation quite rightfully, you know, they have India. There are. There are mobilizable troops not very far from where you are. He's completely Underestimated.
- [27:10]
Anita Anand
It's not that he's not, he's not clever. He is brought up in a system which has always regard China as the center of the world, the center of civilization, and that foreigners are barbarians who have got to be humoured but must not be allowed to get above themselves. And he has literally no conception of the power of mid 19th century Victorian weaponry. He doesn't realize that the wooden junks, the bows and arrows, the spears, and this is a very tragic story which is now unraveling because you have these characters who've done, you know, behaved extremely honorably by their own lights. They've stopped gangsters, they've stopped a terrible poison reason which is eating into their society. And with tact, as they see it, and with good manners, they've made the foreigners behave themselves and won.
- [28:06]
William Dalrymple
I, I see that, but can I just also point out this is a, a country then, and a Chinese government with spectacularly bad intel. I mean, honestly, spectacularly bad. Because three times Lynn gets news that there is a flotilla heading in his direction, that this is serious, you know, and three times he just kind of wafts it off like, oh, don't worry about it, don't worry. He keeps telling the Emperor, don't worry about it. In fact, he keeps saying, you know, when they can almost see them on the horizon, it's like, it is not a rumour. They're actually coming, they are coming, they are nearly here. It's an opium smuggling flotilla, don't worry about it, we'll deal with it with our burning rafts. We can make short shrift of this. He doesn't recognise it at all for what it is, which is tragic, you say, but also just, you know, sort of diplomatically daft. If you are that isolated, you know, you don't see the problems on the horizon.
- [28:59]
Anita Anand
I mean, you're right, of course you're right, but you've got to remember that the Manchus had a terrific military reputation. They just conquered great chunks of western China, they conquered Tibet, yes, but they, they, in their eyes they were the supreme warriors of the world. They had no conception of how far they'd fallen behind in terms of technology. And nothing they've seen so far of the Brit leads them to believe that they're anything to worry about. What unfolds is a series of complete miscalculations by the Qing court. And that begins now to unfold. So at 9am on 4 September 1839, the first three small ships of the fleet come. They take on The Qing junks at Kowloon that are blocking British access to fresh food and water, water in the factories. They still haven't completely let up the the siege. And off the mainland, Elliot has got his interpreter, Carl Gutslav, and he tries to hand letters to the captains of the war junks telling them that if they did not withdraw, violence would result. And the Chinese captain simply refused to take the letters. They won't open the letters, they won't, they won't read them on the grounds that they weren't empowered to do so. So at 2pm on the 4th of September, 1839, with the Cantonese sun blazing down, Eliot says that if they did not allow them to get provisions in half an hour, he would open fire. And when the deadline came, Eliot stuck to his word. And sadly, to everyone's consternation, the junks did not flee, but very bravely stood their ground and returned far. And at 4:45, as the junks drew alongside the English ships, Elliot writes, we gave them three such broadsides that it made every rope in the vessel grin again. We loaded with grape the fourth time and gave them gun for gun. The shrieking on board was dreadful, but it did not frighten me. This is the first day I ever shed human blood and I hope it will be the last. So already there's this awareness among the Brits that, you know, if they do fight with the Chinese, the result is always a massacre. Okay, that they're not equal, a fair fight, so to speak.
- [31:27]
William Dalrymple
Can I ask you this, is a full blown war at this point inevitable, or is there a way back from that?
- [31:34]
Anita Anand
Well, it is inevitable in the sense that the Chinese don't realize what's coming, coming and therefore are in absolutely no mind to back down.
- [31:40]
William Dalrymple
But Eliot wants a compromise. Elliot's a man who compromises. I mean, he's not doing this, opening fire, thinking, actually, I'm starting a war. He's thinking, I mean, with an Elliot brain, there must be a way to row back from this.
- [31:52]
Anita Anand
Correct. And he hopes very much that they will row back. But the fleet is now on its way. The first ships have arrived. Commissioner Lynn is sticking to his original position that the British are welcome to come and trade in Canton, but anyone who wants to come will have to sign a bond promising not to trade in opium forever.
- [32:11]
William Dalrymple
It's not unreasonable. It isn't unreasonable at all. You know, stop pumping drugs into our country. That's all we're saying. You can come in, stop firing at us. We don't need all this silliness just stop, you know, poisoning us with your drugs.
- [32:23]
Anita Anand
So again, on the 2nd of November, you have another confrontation between the Qing war junk and these ironclad British ships. And the English warship the Hyacinth begins cannonading. And the Chinese admiral again bravely returns fire, standing erect before the mast, wielding his sword and roaring death to deserters. He does not flinch, even when injured by a cannonball that also took off one of his main masts. Eliot has to write these letters back to England saying we ran down the Chinese line, pouring in a destructive fire, the terrible effect of which was soon manifest. One war junk blew up at about a pistol shot distance. Three others were sunk, several others obviously waterlogged. The Admiral's conduct was worthy of his station, manifesting a resolution of behavior honourably enhanced by the hopelessness of his efforts. So this is not a nice war to be involved in if you're Elliot, because these guys effectively can't fire back.
- [33:22]
William Dalrymple
Well, you're just mowing down humans, you're.
- [33:24]
Anita Anand
Mowing down men who are honorably sticking to their station, but have absolutely no chance of sustaining even a small response to what's going on. After these two engagements, when you've had two episodes of British ships just instantly sinking, massacring Chinese naval forces, still the Chinese don't understand that the Qing ships cannot win this war against the fleet once it arrives. And when the full fleet turns up, which is the following July with the nemesis, they have Palmerston's battle plan, which has basically been knocked up in his office with William Jardine. And William Jardine is sitting in London, he's got access now to the Foreign Office. He's walking into Palmerston, studies one of very few people in London that's been to China that knows the landscape and Palmerston is lapping up all that he wants.
- [34:22]
William Dalrymple
Palmerston trusts him, he thinks he's a reliable source.
- [34:24]
Anita Anand
It couldn't happen today. Imagine a businessman with a dodgy reputation walking into the most powerful office of.
- [34:31]
William Dalrymple
The land, that somebody you know with a huge business interest in a certain field could come in and whisper sweet nothings into a man, a powerful man's ear. No, it wouldn't have.
- [34:39]
Anita Anand
We have luckily moved on a long way from that. Exactly. Ancient history, but that is exactly what's going on. And so the battle feet arrives and it's got, it has to be said, a very efficient and effective battle plan, which has basically been given to Palmerston already written by William Jardine. And what they said they should do is that they should bypass Canton, that they shouldn't go straight to Canton, which is where all the action has been so far, but instead they should go for the jugular, go for the Empire's center of food distribution on the southeast coast, the point at which the capital's grain supply set off, which is Nanjing on the Grand Canal, and then sail up, if there's any more resistance, up to Beijing. They're not messing around with Canton, they're going straight for the capital.
- [35:25]
William Dalrymple
I don't think we said how many are in the British fleet, because we're talking about 22 warships, 27 transports, 3,600 Scottish, Irish and Indian infantrymen. I mean, this is a considerable force. This is not messing about at all.
- [35:39]
Anita Anand
It's not a fleet, but it's a flotilla. Yeah, a flotilla, okay, it's a flotilla. And their first point is to control the island of Zusha, which controls the entrance to the river. So on the 4th of July, battle begins. And the 22 warships, which is quite a lot of warships.
- [35:59]
William Dalrymple
It's a lot, yeah.
- [36:00]
Anita Anand
And on the morning of the 4th of July, they approach Zhushan Island. And by 8 in the morning, all is as ready as it's ever going to be. There's 15 British ships lined up opposite these poor, unfortunate Qing war junk. Junks. And the British again keep hoping that the Chinese will just buckle. And having seen what happened last time.
- [36:25]
William Dalrymple
Yeah, look what we can do. Just what do you back down.
- [36:29]
Anita Anand
So there's this standoff between 8:30 in the morning, when the British fleet lines up opposite these junks and they hold their fire until 2:30 in the afternoon, hoping the Chinese will reconsider the offer they've made of unconditional surrender. Surrender. But of course, the Chinese are not going to do that. And so then Lord Jocelyn, who is Eliot's military secretary, writes in his diary what happens. The broadsides begin. The broadside, for those that don't know, is one side of a ship firing all its cannons.
- [37:00]
William Dalrymple
Where all the portholes are, where the.
- [37:02]
Anita Anand
Portholes are, as before, there is just a massacre. This is what he writes. The crashing of timber falling houses and the groans of men resounded from the shrine shore. When the smoke cleared away, a massive ruin presented itself to the eye. Crowds were visible in the distance, flying in all directions. The British had fired for only nine minutes, but when they landed on the shore, they just found dead bodies, bows and arrows, broken spears and guns. And then there's one small settlement on this island which is called Dinga. The Madras Regiment is given the task of taking it. It trains four guns on it. By 10 o' clock that evening, the inhabitants just run away. The governor drowns himself in a small pool. This is another thing that happens continually in this story and we'll see it again and again, this habit of ritual suicide in the face of humiliation. And so when the British do go into Canton, they find that half the citizens just commit suicide and they walk into this massacre scene of people that have killed themselves. So the British flag by the following morning is fluttering over the city walls. But nearly a million people have fled the island. Half smoked pipes, cups of untasted tea, abandoned pots. Just nine minutes of fire has seen a million people flee. And the grotesque discrepancy in the strength between the British and the church forces is replayed again and again.
- [38:38]
William Dalrymple
Can I just say, I mean, you know, that kind of massacre, that kind of overpowering strength, you know, it's not a fight. And if you are a fighting man and you see you're just mowing down, you know, people who are largely defenseless and, but brave but defenseless. There is, you know, a body of writing from British officers who took part in this that shows the sort of self disgust at what, you know, pounding and broadside after broadside against wooden junks that just splinter. Can I read a bit from one of them? So this is one description of a British officer involved in that. He says the sea is a scene of horror, quite blackened with floating corpses after a battle. The inside of a fort, he says, is bespattered with brains. Another confesses in his journal that many most barbarous things occurred that are disgraceful to our men. So, you know, they're not filled with honor. These are honorable men. You know, they're going to fight a cause and when they see what they're, you know, they're basically facing floating matchboxes in comparison. That's not sport, that's a massacre. And so they don't, they don't feel terribly proud of themselves either.
- [39:46]
Anita Anand
It's quite telling that the only single victory in the entire course of the war which we're going to hear about next episode, is when there's one minor skirmish and the people who defeat the British, it's a village of angry peasants with pitchforks who've had their fields overrun. It's not the Qing army. The Qing army is instantly so demoralized by what's happening and knowing that there's no way that they can touch these invaders that the officers in almost all cases start locking the gates of their fort system so that the soldiers won't run away.
- [40:22]
William Dalrymple
Wow. Well, there's so much more to talk about.
- [40:26]
Anita Anand
One thing I'd like to say before we finish is talk up the two extraordinary books which I have hugely enjoyed reading and learning from while I was researching this episode. One is Julia Lovell's the Opium War. Julia is a great historian of China. She is also the wife of my wonderful friend Robert McFarlane, the nature of Writer. And her book on Maoist won the Cundl History Prize. But she produced this from I think her thesis and the Opium War Drugs, Dreams and the Making of China is one of the very first books by a British author to really grapple with the Chinese sources for the Opium War because it's a massive subject in Chinese historiography and Julia knows that material like no one else. And it's a detailed day by day look at the first dystopian war. Then the other book which I've hugely enjoyed and which I've also drawn a lot from in this episode is Stephen Platt's Imperial Twilight, the Opium War and the End of China's Last Golden Age. Like Julia, this is by historian of China who's focused very much on the Chinese end of the story and uses Chinese sources impeccably. But it's slightly wider angle. We get a, get a, a much longer time view. It's not just the 1839 Opium War, it's the whole period. Very difficult to choose between the two. I love them both and I'd heartily recommend both to all Empire listeners.
- [41:47]
William Dalrymple
Till the next time we meet, it is goodbye from me, Anita Anand.
- [41:51]
Anita Anand
Goodbye from me, William drimple.
- [42:01]
David McCloskey
I'm David McCloskey, former CIA analyst turned spy novelist.
- [42:04]
Gordon Carrera
And I'm Gordon Kirk Herrera, national security journalist.
- [42:07]
David McCloskey
And together we're the hosts of the Rest Is Classified, where we bring you brilliant stories from the world of spies.
- [42:12]
Gordon Carrera
This week we're talking about one of the most significant stories of the 21st century, Edward Snowden, and how he orchestrated the biggest leak of classified secrets in modern American and British history.
- [42:23]
David McCloskey
Snowden revealed that the American government was mass collecting data on its own citizens. And it was really the first time that Americans and some, many others around the world understood the extent of the US government's mass surveillance.
- [42:36]
Gordon Carrera
That's right. It's a story I covered at the time. And it also really gets to wider questions about what privacy means, how technology has changed our lives, and what the government and companies can do with data we might have thought was private.
- [42:48]
David McCloskey
And we'll take you through the whole story from Snowden's early career in the CIA and the NSA to his life in exile in Russia.
- [42:55]
Gordon Carrera
So to hear more search for the rest is classified. Wherever you get your podcasts.