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- [00:01]
William Dalrymple
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- [00:19]
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- [00:51]
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- [01:18]
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- [02:00]
Anita Anand
Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Anand and me, William Durimple, who is wrapped up like a Arctic explorer because he's back in the uk. Bit of a shock. Look, we're picking up the baton in our big Yalta relay race and we're right at the end, we're on the end stretch and this is, I mean just you've got to imagine what they are feeling because you know, it's been a long, painful five days for them so far.
- [02:27]
William Dalrymple
All that caviar. I know. Desperate.
- [02:29]
Anita Anand
Well, I mean the caviar and vodka is one thing and also much less vodka for Stalin because as we've been saying, he's been watering down his drinks while, you know, Churchill's been knocking them.
- [02:40]
William Dalrymple
Back, as Churchill tended to do well.
- [02:42]
Anita Anand
And also it's really deeply criticised by his team, you know, the more I read about it, the more I see that they are sick and tired of him turning up to meetings completely sloshed.
- [02:51]
William Dalrymple
He starts with Bollinger in the bath in the morning, which is something that I should try doing for I feel Bollinger on the bath rack is a very good stuff.
- [03:00]
Anita Anand
So you've just leapt over my hurdle, which is. Never met anyone like that in my life.
- [03:05]
William Dalrymple
My grandmother was a bit like that. I remember when I was coming, I used to go to stay with her when I was at Cambridge and I thought of myself as this hard drinking undergraduate and she and my great aunt would, would meet for lunch at about 11:30 and start on the dried Dubonnays.
- [03:20]
Anita Anand
And before now there's, there's a flashback drink.
- [03:24]
William Dalrymple
Yes, you'd never see it anywhere again. But it was very much part of my childhood and those two, my grandmother by this stage must have been in her early 90s and my great aunt was in her mid-90s and these two old dames would knock it back and then they'd drink a bottle of red wine each day, each at table. I would be under the dining room table while they'd be larking around. My grandmother finally died aged104.104.
- [03:49]
Anita Anand
So I mean you've lived the Yalta vibes. Can I just tell you very, very quick because we need to crack on with this, but a very quick Dubonneau story.
- [03:56]
William Dalrymple
You should explain what Dubonnet is. Dubonnet is an old fashioned aperitif fashionable in my youth in the 1970s, but which seems to completely died out of common parlance.
- [04:07]
Anita Anand
Well, I'm just about to tell you this story. So my, my first job, I'd led a very sheltered life in Essex, as you know, never did anything so Indian family, quite straight, never went out. Medical textbooks. And also in my dad's waiting room were a whole bunch of lifestyle magazines from the 1970s. So I sort of devoured those, you know, doctors, waiting rooms, they just have loads of stacks or they did in those days, stacks of old magazines. And I saw lots of adverts for Dubonne. So the first time I went out, my first job with. And my boss at the time was Amitabh Bachchan's brother, you know, very fashionable man around town, Ajitab Bachchan. And he said, I'm going to buy everyone a drink and I did not want to look like the town yokel, so I said could I have a Dubonne with a twist? Literally no idea what that was. I just said Dupont with a twist. Because that's what the magazine from the 1970s, I mean, you know, 15, 20 years later, it wasn't fashionable, but I didn't know that because the magazines I'd read said that it was. And he looked very confused and then got me one and he thought I was so fascinating that I would choose such an off menu drink that he ordered one for himself as well and we both instantly regretted it. Instantly. It's a horrible drink.
- [05:23]
William Dalrymple
No wonder it's died out. But as if Dubonne was fairly strong in itself. But my grandmother, great aunt used to have it, a dry Dubonnet, which meant it was 50% gin.
- [05:34]
Anita Anand
Oh, good Lord.
- [05:36]
William Dalrymple
Anyway, the same generation as Churchill, those two.
- [05:41]
Anita Anand
Now, now, now, concentrating, concentrating. There is a fantastic account of day six in Yalta. I'm just going to read you a little bit from Daughters of Yalta, which is fabulous. And it's a first hand account. Poor man. Robert Hopkins, who is 23 years old, he's the son of Harry Hopkins, one of the American delegation and he's the photographer. This is Paul, Robert, trying to herd cats. Okay, first Mr. President, I'd like to have Mr. Stettinius stand behind you with Mr. Molotov behind Marshall Stalin, Mr. Eden behind the Prime Minister, Churchill. Then I'd like the others who participated in the deliberations to move in so they'll be included in the photograph. So it's a record of the conference, but no one's listening to him, so he's having trouble corralling all these three nations together. These statesmen, the senior military leaders, are ranging free like wildebeests. In the background there are three large oriental rugs laid out in front of them in the Italian courtyard at the Levadia palace where all of these talks have been taking place. So this is the very famous photo that you will all see when you look up Yalta. You've got Churchill, Roosevelt and Stalin sitting in the row of chairs waiting for the others to pose behind him. Churchill on the left looking, as Hopkins remembered, cherubic in his grey coat and furry Russian hat and indeed looking as.
- [06:53]
William Dalrymple
If he has already had quite a lot of the Bollinger from his bathroom already. In quite a lot of the pictures he's sort of giggling and cackling and he's got a cigar.
- [07:02]
Anita Anand
Yes, I mean, dare I say, in an unserious mood. Roosevelt's in the middle smoking on a cigarette and he's really very, very unwell. And remember, he wants to leave early and they just don't want him to Go. So he's got this navel cape over his shoulders. Cause he is smart. So cold and so feeling.
- [07:18]
William Dalrymple
Sean Cape. I wondered what it was. It looks like he's going to the opera.
- [07:22]
Anita Anand
Yes, indeed. So poor old Hopkins is trying to get all the background cast to just look at the camera. But what he notices is that nobody, nobody's listening to him. The delegates are behaving like a group of unruly school children having a class picture taken. No one is listening to the instructions. So the photograph that you see after all of that and Paul Hopkins trying to get them in order, is one where none of the background are looking at the camera. You've got the three of them looking in different directions. Like literally no one is sort of recording this for posterity. It is such a fabulous photograph. Churchill is laughing his head off. Stalin's looking in the wrong direction. The chiefs of staff are chatting to each other at the back. And that is the image of the Yalta conference that we will all live with for the rest of our lives.
- [08:12]
William Dalrymple
There is a less disorganized one, which is on the front of her. My favourite book, which I recommend again, Sergei Plokhi's Yalta, the Price Of Peace.
- [08:19]
Anita Anand
Shall I tell you about that one? So that. That one's taken by a Red army captain called Samray Gorey. And that as well. The photograph stories are so wonderful. So, you know, he is trying to take this photograph. And of course, because it's the Russian photograph, so they're all much more in order because Stalin's barking at them. They're all scared of him. But he takes his photograph, he thinks he's got the image. And in his haste, because, you know his hands are slightly shaky, because you do something for Stalin, you do. Your hands shake. He opens his camera before rewinding the film. And he thinks, shit, shit, shit, shit, shit, sh. And he thinks he has ruined the film. And Gorey, who knows Stalin personally, vets official photographs of himself, has 10 minutes of pure hell where he thinks, I'm going to die because my life is.
- [09:02]
William Dalrymple
Hanging by a thread.
- [09:03]
Anita Anand
Indeed, that's what he said. And luckily, when he gets to the dark room, the shots are undamaged. And that is your photograph, which is also the photograph that exists in Pravda.
- [09:13]
William Dalrymple
And that one is. Is a wonderful one. You've got all three of them getting on very well, apparently. This picture. This is the picture that makes it look as if the big three are all absolutely on the same page. Churchill is smirking with a cigar in his mouth. Roosevelt is looking towards Churchill but maybe slightly past him and Uncle Joe is sort of leaning in, looking, looking as if they're all getting on like a house on fire. You don't expect that the hope the Cold War was about to break out.
- [09:39]
Anita Anand
A year later and Europe would be ripped into pieces. Now I draw your attention to the photographs because I think they symbolize the entire Yalta conference which is there's this projected image of look at us all together but there is absolute disarray in the background. Really seriously disarray with people. We've talked about this in the last couple of episodes going behind each other's backs, having secret meetings with each other and not telling their allies and it's pretty messy. So look, let's get back to the day it's itself. So you know they have their 4:30 as usual, they start their big meeting. They do this every day in Yalta.
- [10:15]
William Dalrymple
Just to remind people that it's the, it's the foreign ministers who get together in the morning and try and thrash out the details from the day before. And then the, the grown ups, the big three, Stalin, Roosevelt and Churchill meet at 4:30 and at that time they have what they call the plenary session where the kind of the future of Europe is about to be and the world, the wider world, Asia too is discussed. And these are some of the most crucial hours because from this the map of the world will be changed for the next, well, what is it, 50 years.
- [10:47]
Anita Anand
But the foreign ministers can't agree and this actually sets up the afternoon and it's kind of like a theme of the conference where they send the foreign ministers off and say do the work. And in the evening we'll agree things will be sort of beneficent or that's certainly what Roosevelt is hoping. That's what he wants. He wants this to be a huge legacy building, epoch making conference. The peace will be won. You know, we are going to remake the world in a better image. But the thing is they haven't been able to agree and that's because again the subject of Poland has come up and there is this huge again row over who should lead Poland. Now it's kind of a redundant conversation because the Soviets have already got their friendly government in the Lublin government.
- [11:34]
William Dalrymple
You can say that this for the entire conference that it's held with the Soviets already in control of all of Eastern Europe and no one wants to go to war again. In a sense 9, 10 of it is settled before they ever actually sit down at the table. Which is why it results in this catastrophe for Eastern Europe which anyone all the way from Berlin eastwards regards as the Great Betrayal.
- [12:02]
Anita Anand
Exactly that. But do you remember the last time that Poland was raised? There was this kind of really odd statement that was wafted by the Soviets to try and shut everybody up, which is we will have some kind of democratic process sometime in the future. We'll do a thing. We're not saying what the thing is, but it'll be a thing. And it's going to. Yeah, it's going to be a democratic thing. No, totally. It's going to be, you know, on.
- [12:22]
William Dalrymple
Democrats details of any sort. Exactly.
- [12:24]
Anita Anand
No, but Churchill has completely had time to think about and in the sobriety of the morning thinks actually this is not okay. We need to put the wording of what this new government in Poland. After all, we went to war because of Poland. That was the reason we entered the war. We need to know what it is. So they start then in the afternoon thrashing out how this government is going to be formed because they want some clarity. Now you're quite rightly, it's the most sort of nebulous offering that the Soviets have made. So they start talking about having the addition of non fascist and anti fascist politicians. That's very important. And they don't think the Soviets will object to that because they don't like fascists. But they also want to have ambassadors who will observe this at some point in the future Soviet promised election to make sure that it is actually a democratic election. Now of course, Molotov has had time to think this over too. He sees what the foreign ministers are talking about. He goes back to Stalin and goes, they want to send observers. Stalin goes, bugger that. No, why would we agree to this? Why would we have this now? All of this is wafting around before they even sit down for their plenary session in the afternoon. So Churchill knows that there is a wriggle manoeuvre on and Poland will very easily be betrayed in the future. He also knows Roosevelt has not got his back because Roosevelt for some reason and he doesn't know these private conversations that are going on, promising chunks of China, Roosevelt's own ally to the Russians. He doesn't know that Stalin thinks he's got it in the bag and is just basically wafting them along because he has very little respect for Churchill in these talks. So he starts pushing the issue. No, we've got 48 hours of these meetings left. Polish democracy is important. I think we need and I think the phrase he says everyone is Eager to put in the stirrup and be off. We want to leave, especially Roosevelt. He's halfway out the door already. So can we please sort out this wording? And what happens when things get really hard? They take a break. They just always take a break. Because Roosevelt can see that these things are going to sort of derail the talks. You know, we'll circle back to it.
- [14:43]
William Dalrymple
Roosevelt at the time and afterwards, for historians, the Sphinx that no one can really understand. And looking back on this conference from where we stand now, you keep thinking that if only Roosevelt had focused a bit more on Eastern Europe, there could have been a different outcome. Also, the business that we talked about on earlier episodes about how the Russians already know, because of intelligence leaks, all the red lines of the Western negotiations, and they know that they can hold the line they want to without the west knowing their red lines. And subsequently, when the Soviet archives were opened after 1989, it was very clear that the Soviets could have been pushed a bit further, that they could have been persuaded to move the borders.
- [15:29]
Anita Anand
They could not believe how lucky they were getting. Absolutely. I mean, they couldn't believe their luck. But they also have strategies and pushback. So, you know, while Poland is sort of percolating in the background mischievously, the Americans say, you know, because they know that Churchill's going to kick off, they say we should actually also talk about the role of the five permanent members of the UN Security Council that we are forming, and we should talk about territorial trusteeships for other countries. The phrase in itself, territorial trusteeship, I.
- [15:59]
William Dalrymple
Mean, what the hell does that mean for former colonies? Wasn't it? That was the phrase they used.
- [16:03]
Anita Anand
That's the thing that he slips in former colonies. So Churchill's like, what the British Empire is made up of. What are you talking about? Former colonies? He really, the language is a complete red flag because this is a direct attack on the empire. And what on earth does he want meddling other countries to talk about? You know, the colonies after the war, even if they are former colonies. So he gets up in a great agitation and he starts so doing the hammering on the table that his team are quite embarrassed by. That he does fairly often. He's a great jabber of table. Stalin does it. Not so often, but when he does it, everybody sort of wets themselves. But under no circumstances, Churchill insists, will he ever consent to 40 or 50 nations thrusting interfering fingers into the life existence of the British Empire.
- [16:53]
William Dalrymple
Again, we should perhaps remind listeners that Churchill, all his life had seen himself as the great defender of the British empire. From his 20s in the northwest frontier through to the Boer War, his entire life was about defending the British Empire. So this, this guy now in his old age, is not going to see his final act, in a sense, and he's aware that this may be his final act, giving away everything he's fought for all his life. He's failing to defend Poland. And now suddenly, Roosevelt has suddenly used a turn of phrase that makes it sound like he's carving up the British Empire.
- [17:28]
Anita Anand
So Roosevelt is really. But, you know, if you look at Sussanius recollections of this, they are genuinely startled because they weren't talking about the Empire. They weren't. They were talking about something else. But that's how touchy it is with Churchill. So they're sort of like, what? And they say, no, no, no, no, we weren't talking about the British Empire. We were talking about liberated areas taken from the enemy, like the Japanese islands and the Pacific. Would you calm down? But Churchill still, that wording is not good for him.
- [17:58]
William Dalrymple
And he thinks everyone's ganging up against him. And he sits down shaking with rage, stabbing the table, saying never, never, never.
- [18:05]
Anita Anand
And they have to call another recess for him to calm down.
- [18:08]
William Dalrymple
But his not at all happy with Churchill's performance. They can see him a arriving often a little bit worse for wear from the morning bolly. And they're also aware that his sort of histrionic passion, which plays so well on the radio, we remember Churchill because of those radio speeches. We will fight on the beaches and this sort of stuff, but it doesn't work so well at the negotiating table, where the kind of cool of Stalin's preparedness and calm gets much better results.
- [18:42]
Anita Anand
Whether they're all fans of Uncle Joe. I mean, he's already been on the front page of Time magazine. He's going to be on Newsweek very shortly. I mean, you know, the guy is the guy of the hour. So after the recess, after he's calmed down, they get back on Poland, which is not going to improve anybody's indigestion at all. And again it goes round and round and round about, you know, ambassadors. No, I don't want ambassadors. I don't want people observing any elections. You've just got to trust us. Look, we're in Poland right now. We're saying to you, it's going to be democratic. Stop worrying about about it. Stop worrying about it, say the Soviets. But it's getting stuck again. And Roosevelt starts literally pleading with everyone, just, you know, what are you doing? And he says, we are now very near an agreement. A little more work done by the foreign ministers. We'll work this out, we'll settle this. He says it's only a matter of words and details. I mean it's a lot more than that. So, you know, they try again not to get bogged down in Poland, but they're getting bogged down in Poland. And then Stalin does this clever thing which is, oh yeah, okay, well, we'll circle back to Poland. This circling back to Poland is a theme of the Arter conference. It's like we'll just put the grenade in the middle of the table and we'll just talk about the fruit basket over here. They do it every time Poland comes up. So then it says let's. Stalin says, let's just talk about the joint declaration on a liberated Europe. So this is a statement. They're meant to Yathur. The whole point of Yalta is they're going to be statements and communiques about a pathway forward in a peaceful world. And you know, it's been drafted by the United States, it's been approved by the foreign ministers, it's a page and a half long and it's got all these sort of high flown ideals of what the new world is going to be.
- [20:13]
William Dalrymple
And Roosevelt sees this as his legacy.
- [20:15]
Anita Anand
Speech in the sense his document.
- [20:16]
William Dalrymple
Yeah, exactly.
- [20:18]
Anita Anand
So it speaks of re establishing order in Europe to allow, and this is a phraseology from the document, liberated peoples to destroy the last vestiges of Nazism and fascism and to create democratic institutions of their own choice. And it will uphold the rights of all peoples to choose the form of government under which they live. Molotov says about your statement and he looks at Stalin, this is going too far. It seems like quite a nice thing. This is going too far. And then Stalin, they do this double act because he's obviously told Molotov, Stone asked, you go in hard like we always do, and I'll do that.
- [20:56]
William Dalrymple
I'll be the good cop.
- [20:57]
Anita Anand
Calm down, it's not worth it. And Stalin says, don't worry, we'll work it out. We can deal with it in our own way later. The point is the correlation of forces.
- [21:07]
William Dalrymple
What does that mean? The correlation of forces that we need.
- [21:09]
Anita Anand
To get the war done. We just need to get our stuff sorted, we need to get there first and let's just not do anything. But again you see the sort of role reversal and you have then on this declaration something extraordinary that happens. William, what does Stalin do?
- [21:24]
William Dalrymple
He backs down, as it seems, which.
- [21:26]
Anita Anand
Is unthinkable yeah, looks like to everybody, he's backing down. And what does he say?
- [21:30]
William Dalrymple
It says that he will accept it subject to a small amendment that support will be given particularly to the political leaders of those countries who have taken an active part in the struggle against German invaders. And Roosevelt points out, as far as he's concerned, the declaration would apply to quotes again, any areas or countries where it was needed, including Poland, where the elections would be the first practical test of the declaration. And this looks like Stalin has given ground. But Stalin knows that he controls Poland and there's not much that the Allies are going to be able to do. And it's a very, very long way from the Western front line.
- [22:09]
Anita Anand
What are you going to do? You have your declaration and we'll see is basically the mood at the table. But everybody just hears what they want to hear. So every, you know, those who want to hear that Stalin's backing down on this, they're satisfied.
- [22:21]
William Dalrymple
This is a very potent point. I'm always looking back to Sergei Ploki, who's in the Soviet archives once they were released from the mid-80s onwards. And what he is very interesting about is that there is no official record to be able to. It isn't like they all agree on the exact.
- [22:40]
Anita Anand
On how it went.
- [22:41]
William Dalrymple
Yeah, how it went. And it's very clear in the archives that everyone is coming away from each session with completely different ideas of what has actually been agreed. And the Soviets read it completely differently. And whether this is partly because the problems of translation and whether the interpreters are spinning things, may I venture an opinion?
- [23:03]
Anita Anand
It is Roosevelt deliberately using ambiguous language. It's Roosevelt using. It's the problem with Roosevelt who's trying to be the peacemaker, using ambiguous language and actually shirking away from the points of contention, because what he wants is for this to work. But what working means is just getting through the bloody eight days and having something right.
- [23:26]
William Dalrymple
And his two main goals which are achieved, which is bringing the Soviets into the war against Japan and the creation of the United nations, and if he can walk away with those two, he regards it as a win. But Churchill is not getting anything he wants.
- [23:39]
Anita Anand
No, but even for Roosevelt, when this idea is of sort of only giving these concessions, as Stalin wants, to those who have actively struggled against and fought with the Nazis, he's, you know, not interested in the small estates, but he is really interested in the small estates. Roosevelt says, look like Caesar's wife. They must, meaning them, the people of Yorta must be above suspicion. And Stalin comes back. Caesar's wife had that reputation, but in fact, he says darkly, she had her sins. And again, these sort of statements sort of hang over the table, meaning, yes, yes, you talk about Caesar's wife and we have to be completely transparent and honourable about this, but, you know, the woman was a bit of. A bit of a goer on the side. And everyone just moves on, moving on as if that's now settled. So the declaration anyway, kind of gets passed through. Stalin lets his statement hang in the air. It's not worth the row right now because it'll work out in his favour in time. He's absolutely sure of it. And as the session draws to a close, Churchill says the Allied offensive in the west has begun. So he's got big news. 100,000 British and Canadian soldiers have attacked at dawn. Operation Veritable is proving a success and advancing at some speed.
- [24:50]
William Dalrymple
So this offensive, Anita is around Niemegan. Anyone that remembers the movie A Bridge Too Far. These are the three rivers. Is it the Maas, The Rhine. What's the third one? The Vaal, The Waal. That's it. And this is the fatal German resistance which had meant that the Allies are late to Berlin. The Soviets are already there and their inability to cross this first time is what, in a sense, gave way half of Eastern Europe. But now, finally, 100,000 troops have attacked at dawn and have advanced some distance. So this great block, which was one of the main problems behind Yalta, is now finally being sorted out and there's a second wave from the US 9th army which will push forward the next day.
- [25:37]
Anita Anand
Right. So in the evening, it's just an interesting observation and we really owe so much to the daughters of Yalta who go along to this and, you know, some of their records are invaluable also, you know, everyone's keeping diaries at this point. Roosevelt's back at his Levaldia palace chambers and he's having an alcoholic rub down and his doctor's very worried about.
- [25:56]
William Dalrymple
What does that mean, an alcoholic rub down?
- [25:58]
Anita Anand
It's just a massage.
- [25:59]
William Dalrymple
It's a massage, but with sort of raw vodka rather than oil. Is that the.
- [26:03]
Anita Anand
Not vodka? No, sort of liniments to ease your muscles. That's what it is. Yeah. So he's having that and he's always worried about the President, who seems to be falling to pieces, but he finds him in a pretty sort of. Of upbeat, buoyant kind of mood. And it is with his old smile, says the doctor, that he announces Roosevelt, this is. I've got everything I came for. And not at too high a price. Stalin had agreed to full participation in the un. Furthermore, the Soviet Union will enter the war against Japan at an early date. The only fly in the ointment is Poland. Now that fly is the thing that's keeping Churchill is not having an alcoholic rub at all. Really stressed out in the Wronzev palace and you know, he's cabling his cabinet, trying to press on Poland, talking to the exiled government in London, saying, look, this is what's happening behind your back. Tell them this is what's happening. And he says, you know, we need to make sure we understand what's going on in Poland because once that, that happens, once that train starts moving and we're not on it, we have no control about the direction of Poland.
- [27:05]
William Dalrymple
We're not enormous fans of Churchill on this podcast and we've done whole issues on the Bengal famine where it's right here. But here is absolutely the point when Churchill gets it and Roosevelt doesn't. And Churchill realizes that not just Poland, you can read the whole of Eastern Europe is being given away at this point to the Soviets. And he says at one point they don't seem to realize that Russia is a police state. And he gets this crucial point. He foresees what will happen to Eastern Europe in the 50s and 60s and the 70s. And Roosevelt also rather like sort of Trump today, just I think seems to regard Europe as far away and not his problem.
- [27:47]
Anita Anand
Well, he doesn't care. It's so far it's not his, it's not really his sphere of influence. You know, it doesn't care. It'll be fine. So look, that's what's happening. They're all in their different states of mind. And the foreign ministers, again, they don't sleep at all, so they're working through the night. How do we get some wording on Poland that will get us out of here and go home to the people that we love because we are frankly sick of this. We need to move. We'll take a break here. Join us after the break where a new day dawns and we are on the home straight.
- [28:17]
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- [28:51]
William Dalrymple
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- [29:02]
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- [29:25]
Anita Anand
3 month plan equivalent to $15 per month Required intro rate first 3 months only, then full price plan options available, taxes and fees extra. See full terms@mintmobile.com welcome back. So, okay, so it's been, it's been a strange night for the big three in Yalta with two sort of feeling like they, they're getting where they want to be. Roosevelt and Stalin having quite a good night. Churchill in absolute twists over the fact that this is all going wrong. So the next day, this is the really thorny subject that is the main meat of the day, which is reparations. Now, do you remember that panto that we talked about where Stalin and Molotov are talking about how much money they'll get out of Germany, Right? And they just basically pluck numbers out of the air, honestly. So they quite rightly argue that their country has been devastated. The Soviet Union has been devastated by the war. They have lost blood and coin. That is enormous and they need to rebuild.
- [30:24]
William Dalrymple
And this is visible around Yalta. Churchill and Roosevelt can see the complete.
- [30:29]
Anita Anand
Wreck of the Crimea tripping over skeletons even while they're sort of out going back and eating their caviar. And people are, people are starving. They can see it with their own eyes, right? So you know this weird thing that they had, should we ask for five or ten? Says Molotov. And Stalin under his ten. Go for ten and I will tell you to calm down, but go for 10, they go for 10. And Churchill even at the time is going, that's nuts. So now they're talking about a possible total on this day of 20 billion in reparations. And even the Soviet official Ivan Mazinsky complains that the British seem absolutely dead set. The British are saying the reparations, they don't have that much money. There's no way they can, there's no way there's that much money in Germany, Be reasonable. What are you going to do? Reduce them to this sort of rubble state where we, the rest of Western Europe are going to have to feed them, clothe them, look after them, after them. What are you doing? What exactly are you leaving in the middle of Europe? Maisky says, you know what, they want us to take as little from Germany as possible. And so there is actually a deep seated and real, I think this is not just mischief belief that the Russians or the Soviets are saying they don't want to give us the money despite everything we've lost. And Churchill, Roosevelt somewhere floating at the top, not really caring very much, but Churchill saying there isn't this much money. You are going to leave a barren famine desert in the middle of Western Europe with a people who are going to have no ability to have a future. And so, you know, this is going to be the massive sort of blowout point.
- [32:11]
William Dalrymple
And behind Churchill's analysis is this, this understanding that he has that the harshness of the Versailles reparations after World War I was one of the things that propelled Hitler into power in the 1930s. The fact that the, the Germans thought they'd had everything taken from them, far more than they deserved creates a sense of that they've been, that they've been robbed. And, and this is a bus onto which Hitler jumps in the 1930s. And his entire rise to power in Churchill's view is because of the greed and the harshness of the Versailles Treaty. And he's wanting to avoid this. But the Soviets just think, you know, we want every bit of machinery, we want every last washing machine, we're going.
- [32:55]
Anita Anand
To squeeze the lemon till the pips come out. Absolutely. So that's sort of the defining air of this penultimate day. It will turn out of Yalta, but it wouldn't be Yalta if people weren't meeting behind people's backs. That's, you know, that's been a thing. So in the early afternoon you've got sort of Harriman who is the American and Molotov meeting to finalize their secret agreement on Soviet terms for entry into the war. Right. They've sort of come to an arrangement. Do you remember that sort of handshake that happened between Stalin and Roosevelt? And Churchill was on the outside saying, let me in, let me in. Why can't I go in? And they're saying, just wait, wait out here. You know, grown ups are talking that awful scene for Churchill. Now what happens is that the Soviets change their ask right at the 11th hour. They say, you know, we talked about these things and we agreed these things, but the thing is, we'd quite like to take a little more of China. If you want us. We want a bit more of China. So we want this Port Dehrin in the northeast of China. We would also like Port Arthur. It's another harbour that the Chinese have got. We'd like to take that, too. And we'd like the Manchurian Railroad as well. And this is all stuff that, you know, Russia had lost. I mean, you know, you were going to say this is the. The great Japanese victory over the Soviets in 1905. We talked about this, didn't we, in another podcast? But this is horrifying to Harriman, who's like, why are they changing the rules? What on earth are they doing? And he sort of says, I can't agree to this. I need to talk to Roosevelt about this.
- [34:26]
William Dalrymple
And just to flag why this is important, if you control the Manchurian railroad, you have the back road into China.
- [34:34]
Anita Anand
China.
- [34:35]
William Dalrymple
And this is part, all part of supporting Mao and Chinese Communists. So, again, those that attack Yalta say that not only does it giving away great chunks of Eastern Europe, it's one of the main ways in which the Communists come to power in China. That's the argument of those who regard this conference as a disaster. And this is the point at which suddenly that new front is opened up in the Russian diplomacy.
- [35:08]
Anita Anand
So this is just for Roosevelt, who thinks his deal is done and he's already sort of packing his handkerchiefs and things. This is a disaster because he's already betraying his ally, Chiang Kai Shek, by giving away bits of his territory that he's already agreed to. And now what he's meant to agree to paralyze his country and every, you know, all the major routes and ports that he's being asked to give them away. So they're all in a real fluster again. Just imagine these big three sitting around a table. Imagine that photograph. Oh, we're such friends. We're sorting it all out and there's just this horror show going on in the background.
- [35:48]
William Dalrymple
And Harriman realizes what a big deal this is, doesn't he? He stalls and he says he can't possibly agree to this without consulting the President.
- [35:55]
Anita Anand
And the President says, I'm not doing it.
- [35:57]
William Dalrymple
He assumes that. That Roosevelt will require both Port Arthur and Derren to be free ports and that the Manchurian railway, at the very least, should be operated jointly by the Chinese and Soviets, rather than the Soviets having complete control. This opens the door to what will befall the whole Eastern front and China in the immediate post war period. So this is again a crucial outcome of Yalta.
- [36:21]
Anita Anand
All of the swirling resentments are going around. So there's Poland. Now there's the added tension for Roosevelt. And what the hell is Stalin asking for in China now? This is all just moving too fast. So Churchill perhaps trying to get on the front foot, starts talking about the repatriation of prisoners of war. Let's talk about something else that we can maybe agree on. What does Stalin want the British to do with the enormous number of former Russian POWs that they're holding? And Stalin just waves his hands, return them all as quickly as possible and those who fought for the Nazis will be dealt with. He says that's, you know, what that means for him. So Churchill then asks, can you tell us how many British POWs the Red army has liberated? And if you have, could you just make sure you treat them well? He begs for good treatment for them. Every mother in England is anxious about the fate of our prisoner sons. And Stalin says, yeah, sure, send it liaison. We'll get them behind Red army lines, they'll be cared for, it's fine. So it looks as though, you know, there are concessions being made, they can do something. Even though Stalin has said his will be dealt with and nobody asks him, what do you mean by that? What do you mean by exactly by that? So again you've got Roosevelt trying to sort of convey this bonhomie. He's designed These special engraved 4th term inaugural medallions commemorating his recent election. And he does this huge giving over to Churchill, Stalin, Eden Molotov. They all get a lovely medal. And then. And he and Stalin again withdraw to the study to confer about. What were you saying about the ports, Clark? Churchill doesn't know any of this, you know, what the hell is going on. And he finally says, actually, I've got a red line. That port that you want, Darren, that's going to be a free port.
- [38:10]
William Dalrymple
This is Roosevelt saying, this is it.
- [38:11]
Anita Anand
Roosevelt says it, yeah. I can't give you derrant. There's just no way. It's not gonna happen. Port Arthur. How about if you have a Russian naval base? Satisfy you? Yes, okay, Stalin might. And you could lease it, he says, to the Soviet Union. So Stalin says that, okay, yeah, okay, we can do that. Roosevelt and Stalin agree that would be all right. And they think again they've found some kind of solution. But it is giving so much again to the Soviets again, other people's territory. Who are not around that table which is going to lead to a lot of problems in the future.
- [38:48]
William Dalrymple
The next issue on the agenda is reparations. Now we talked before about how the Soviets were asking for the crazy $20 billion. Churchill's cabinet, war cabinet in London tells him not to agree to any specific total, arguing that 20 billion is anyway far too great and beyond all the capacity of a bomb. Defeated and perhaps dismembered Germany to pay. Churchill knows how much this will anger Stalin. Everyone does. And Roosevelt actually tries to save the day, suggesting that nothing needs to be said publicly about the amounts of money which should be left to the reparations committee. But this does nothing to stave off Stalin who's absolutely furious. And he clutches his chair so tightly that his quote, brown hands go white at the knuckles. And he's, he's very good at this, Stalin. He can play fury and strike fear even into his allies hearts and he spits out his words as if they burn his mouth. Great stretches of his country have been laid waste. Is this the wish of the conference, that the Russians should not receive any reparations at all? So Roosevelt soothes him down. He says the whole matter should be left to a commission in Moscow. But Churchill refuses to budge on specifying any total figure. And this goes backwards and forwards. Everyone's looking angry at this.
- [40:10]
Anita Anand
So again there's a sort of let's just fudge it and move on. Can we just fudge it? So they agree, or rather Stalin proposes a new wording that he hopes will satisfy everyone. That the leaders agree Germany must compensate the allied nations for the damage she has caused and will instruct the Moscow Commission to consider the amounts of reparation. And everyone says okay, that sounds right. And Stalin though pointedly looks at the other two of the big three saying you will not go back on this tomorrow. And they'll go no, of course not. We've agreed a thing now in his head. You will not go back on this tomorrow means you will not go back on it is 20 billion. I know that's what it is. We're going to halve it and 10 billion is going to go to the Soviets. You're not going to go back on this tomorrow. I'm agreeing to your fudgy words. But this is what we know here at the table. Now what they hear is we're going to have the commission look at how much money we're going to get in reparations. And of course we won't go back on that tomorrow because it's a process and we're going to have finer minds than ours actually digging into the pockets of Germany to see how much they can pay. So everybody again has left with a completely different idea of what they've come away from, which is why everyone's sense of betrayal in the years after is going to be so acute.
- [41:23]
William Dalrymple
Many historians interpret this as the sort of thing which creates the. The grounds for the Cold War. All the future disagreements that'll freeze Europe for 50 years are laid in the misunderstandings and the unsaid and unfinished misagreements or disagreements here.
- [41:42]
Anita Anand
There is an extraordinary thing that does happen at the end of the meeting, though. So the end of the meeting, it looks like everything's calmed down. They fudged everything. That's difficult. Everyone's a winner, baby. Everyone's coming away from the table thinking they've got exactly what they want and nobody has actually got what they want. So it's winding down. And then suddenly, out of the blue, Roosevelt announces, I'm leaving tomorrow at three o' clock, a day early. This will be a day early. Right, I'm leaving at 3. And they're like, what are you. Why?
- [42:12]
William Dalrymple
Nothing is finished. We're in the middle of this.
- [42:14]
Anita Anand
Literally nothing is finished here. And they sort of like, first of all, there's this absolute horror and shock. And then Churchill says, really. And he really pleaded to them, you cannot, you cannot, you must reconsider. We have not even got a conference communique. Now, these things are really important after a conference. It lays out all of the achievements, all of the objectives and a pathway forward. It's like if you're in a corporation, it's what they call a mission statement. They haven't got one. They have not got the form of words which will tell everybody what the hell these lot have been doing together at a time of war in Ukraine.
- [42:53]
William Dalrymple
So Stalin, at this point suggests cancelling the formal dinner that Churchill's delegation has spent the whole week preparing for. They've got everything on their tables, their kitchens are heaving. And this is meant to be Churchill's big moment. So of course he doesn't want to cancel the dinner. And he suggests instead that a communique is drafted by committee which will work during the night, but that the three big boys will sit down to their dinner. And that, finally, is what happens. Churchill doesn't want to miss his.
- [43:22]
Anita Anand
No, I mean, it's his big moment. And it is. It's again, it's one of the Last Supper. It is the Last Supper and it's bonkers again. You know, there's caviar, there's salmon, there's sturgeon, there's suckling pig. I mean, I like doing the list because it's just. And I'll tell you why. Suckling pig with horseradish sauce. Vol au vens of game, choice of two soups. This is all. Everyone has all of this. A choice of two soups, then white fish and champagne sauce, then mutton shashlik and pilau rice.
- [43:50]
William Dalrymple
I'd gone for the mutton shashlik. I'd have saved up for that.
- [43:53]
Anita Anand
You and me both. Baby and wild goat from the steps. Then roast turkey, quails and partridge with green peas, and finally ice cream, fruit, petit fours, roasted almonds and coffee, wine, vodka and champagne.
- [44:05]
William Dalrymple
In the middle of virtually a sort of famine in the crowd, people are.
- [44:09]
Anita Anand
Starving to death in the area. There is something obscene about this. I know it's sort of national projection of, look how strong we are. But there are literally mothers whose breasts are drying up because they can't feed their babies. And this is one of the.
- [44:26]
William Dalrymple
Yeah, people are trying to choose between the vol au vence and the horseradish sauce.
- [44:29]
Anita Anand
They're not choosing, darling. They have both. All of these courses are presented to everybody. This is not an a la carte menu. This is course after course after course. So anyway, look it all, you know, they do their toasting. You're a great guy now. You're a great guy now. You the guy. Now. You the guy. You'd a guy. All of that. That there is sort of still simmering resentment. Simmering, simmering resentment. And Stalin sort of muttering to anyone who's going to listen to him at this very dinner, where they're just feasting till they burst, says he's going to tell the Soviet people they're not going to get any reparations because the British oppose it. And he's like completely pointedly giving daggers to Churchill, saying that that's what the story of this conference is going to be. You are setting yourself up to be the enemy of the Soviet Union. And Churchill, as we know, although he doesn't say it at the time, thinks, come on over here if you think you're hard enough. You know, he's the one man who's absolutely sure that the Soviet Union is a terrible thing for Europe and he again will stand alone if he has to.
- [45:40]
William Dalrymple
But even Churchill's delegation are super impressed by the way that the Soviets are winning argument after argument. One senior official writes, Joe, that Stalin has been extremely good. He is a great man. And shows up very impressively against the background of the two other aging statesmen. The impression given is that Stalin is really at the kind of full force of his command, and Roosevelt is physically falling apart, and Churchill is now so old and drunk that no one's taking any notice of him. Interesting. Yeah.
- [46:15]
Anita Anand
Yeah. Well, I mean, they. Look, one thing that they do do is they manage to get Roosevelt to stay, which is good. I just. Don't. Please don't just go off. Let's just finish this.
- [46:23]
William Dalrymple
What's Roosevelt's rushing off for? What's. He. What's.
- [46:25]
Anita Anand
He's tired. He's not well. I mean, he doesn't say this. He sort of thinks that he's done all that he can do is what he says. He said, I think we can leave all of this to be wrapped up by the foreign minister.
- [46:35]
William Dalrymple
And he's got what he's after. He's got the Soviets into the war.
- [46:38]
Anita Anand
Japan and the United Nations. He's got all of that. You know, he's got what he needs. But look, what they do is they do spend the next day tying up ends as much as they could with some of these fudgy things. They have this agreement setting out Stalin's rules and conditions for entering the Pacific War, and they ask him to sign and the words. The heads of the three great powers have agreed that the claims of the Soviet Union shall be unquestionably fulfilled after Japan has been defeated. And they make it clear that the US and the UK Will ensure the Soviet Union receives its promised rewards, whatever the views of the Nationalist Chinese leader Chiang Kai Shek, when he is eventually informed. Churchill, when he reads this, is kind of a little bit hurt that they've been negotiating this behind his back. But he knows as well that there are some battles he can win and some he can't. And also in his mind, it's a long way away, it's far. It's their problem. They can. They can deal with it, and I can't do anything about it. So then the main meeting is going to be all about. Now they've sorted that out, and Churchill has finally been brought on board and is made aware of it. The final plenary session is going to be the conference communique, or as Churchill calls it, this bloody thing which they need to write and release to the world. And let's talk about what it ends up being. It's a detailed map of what's in store for Nazi Germany. So it's unconditional surrender, disarmament, the removal or Destruction of any industries with military applications, the trial of war criminals, the levying of reparations, number unspecified, and the imposition of allied zones of occupation, including one for France, which is what Churchill really wanted. And it also then confirms there is going to be a forthcoming UN conference in San Francisco that will contain the Declaration on Liberated Europe. So they finally done it. They finally done it. And their last session, William, lasts only 50 minutes because that's it. They really needed to stay to get this, agreed to get it all signed off. I think there is a very funny thing when they try to decide who's going to sign the thing first. Roosevelt says, oh, Stalin, since you're our host, you should sign first. And Stalin says, no, no, no, because it will look to the world as if I'm pushing you around and making you do things. You should sign first. What about Churchill goes, I think we should do in alphabetical order, because then I go first, which is just so funny. So they end up doing sort of one Russian version and one British version. Churchill also says, I'm the oldest. I'm alphabetically first, and I'm the oldest. I should go first. So they do finally will sign it or anyway, and that is the final communique that the world will do.
- [49:27]
William Dalrymple
And this, we should say, is something that the world judges over the next 50 years as a monumental failure on the behalf of the West. Of Roosevelt and Churchill, I've got here Sahi Plachy's wonderful conclusions. He says, from the perspectives of the late 40s and early 50s, the Yalta agreements failed to prevent the Soviet takeover of Eastern Europe and were accused of creating conditions for the communist victory in China, where the Soviet Union were allocated a sphere of influence in Manchuria. And yet, if diplomacy is the art of the possible, and if one were to judge the results of Yalta according to the geopolitical and military situation at the time, one would conclude that the Western leaders achieved considerably more than they were subsequently credited for. So this is the moment that so much is given away. But you can also argue that there's absolutely nothing they could have done given the fact that the whole of Eastern Europe was already in Soviet possession. There's a nice note also about my friend Timothy Garton Asch, who writes in his book that when he first goes to Poland, he keeps hearing this very strange word in the 70s that people keep talking about, yauta. And he wonders what this means. Does jauta mean fate? And in fact, it's the Polish pronunciation of Yalta, which for generation is a synonym for Betrayal. For the Polish, this is the moment that they are put under the jackboot of Russia for the next 50 years. And the fact that they didn't hammer down the details of what was going to happen to Poland is arguably the greatest failure. That and giving away the Manchurian railway. But Stalin holds the trump cards and there's very little, you know, there's very little maneuvering room that these guys have got.
- [51:18]
Anita Anand
I was just going to say that actually what else could they have done? I mean they needed to end the war, they needed to work together. There are, there is also an argument that if they hadn't of hashed together even this completely needs to malformed and actually completely porous document that they produced at Yalta. The war could have dragged on and on and on and on and on and on. And how many more lives would have been lost? You know, there is a school of thought. They did the best they could under the circumstances that they were facing.
- [51:48]
William Dalrymple
There's a very nice final paragraph in Serhi Plocki's book and it's particularly interesting to read at the moment. Cause this book was written before Trump comes to power obviously. And yet it, it echoes all sorts of decisions that Europe's going to have to make now as Trump reassesses America's relationship with Putin. And here's what Ploky writes. Ploki is Ukrainian, so in a sense he's very much from the part of the world that Yalta affected. Like any war, any peace is never a one act play. It has its beginnings and its end, its ups and downs, its heroes and villains islands. It also has its price. As Yalta shows. No matter how hard democratic leaders try, there is always surprise to be paid for making alliances with dictatorships and totalitarian regimes. If you support an ally of convenience and build up his power, it can then become difficult to keep him in check. Your enemy's enemy may well become your own enemy once the initial conflict is over. And unless the alliance is based on common values and principles, the world is too complex and dangerous a place for anyone to entertain the notion that democracies should ally themselves only with democracies, or that common values should serve as the sole foundation for future alliances. But Yalta shows that the unity of democratic states is essential to achieve their common goals. There will always be ideological or cultural differences, not only between enemies, but also between partners, as was the case of Yalta. And appreciation of those differences is essential to avoid over inflated expectations.
- [53:25]
Anita Anand
Well, the expectations are certainly high when they all leave each other and they give each other hugs. And Roosevelt gives Stalin 8 Legion of Merit decorations for members of the Soviet military delegation, saying, thank you so much for having us. It's been lovely. He also then ends thanks for all the caveat with these words. Yeah, he says, we will meet again soon in Berlin. And in the next episode of Empire, we are going to be joined by the fabulous Giles Milton, who is going to take us through the extraordinary scramble for Berlin. And what happens after? If you think this was rancorous around the table, wait and see what happens.
- [54:00]
William Dalrymple
It's going to get worse when the.
- [54:02]
Anita Anand
Big three have to enact what they've decided at Yalta. Till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Anand.
- [54:10]
William Dalrymple
Aye, goodbye from me, William Dalrymple.
- [54:20]
Anita Anand
Before you go, can we tell you about something really exciting?
- [54:23]
William Dalrymple
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- [54:31]
Anita Anand
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- [54:43]
William Dalrymple
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- [54:53]
Anita Anand
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