271. Canada’s Dark Secret: Stolen Children, Unmarked Graves, & Survival Stories (Ep 5)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Empire Episode 271 Title: Canada’s Dark Secret: Stolen Children, Unmarked Graves, & Survival Stories (Ep 5) Release Date: July 9, 2025 Hosts: Anita Anand and William Durrymple Guest: Celia Hague Brown, Co-author of Resistance and Renewal: Surviving the Indian Residential School

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Introduction

In Episode 271 of Empire, hosted by Anita Anand and William Durrymple, the conversation delves into one of Canada's most harrowing historical chapters—the Indian Residential School system. Joining them is Celia Hague Brown, co-author of Resistance and Renewal: Surviving the Indian Residential School. This episode, the fifth in their Canadian miniseries, examines the traumatic legacy of the Kamloops Indian Residential School and its lasting impact on Indigenous communities.

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Nomenclature and Respecting Indigenous Identity

The discussion begins with Celia Hague Brown addressing the evolving terminology used to refer to Indigenous peoples in Canada. She emphasizes the importance of using respectful and appropriate terms, noting the shift from "Indian" and "Native" to "First Nations," "Métis," "Inuit," and the broader term "Indigenous." Celia states:

"Finally, I would say for most Indigenous nations, the preference is that you refer to that nation by the name they have chosen for themselves." (05:17)

Anita Anand draws parallels to similar linguistic evolutions in Australia, reinforcing the global movement towards respectful nomenclature.

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Historical Context of Kamloops Indian Residential School

Celia provides a historical backdrop of Kamloops, highlighting its significance as a traditional gathering place for Indigenous peoples due to its strategic location at the meeting of the North and South Thompson Rivers—a vital salmon river. The arrival of the Hudson Bay Company marked the beginning of European occupation and the subsequent establishment of trading forts, setting the stage for cultural and territorial conflicts.

She explains:

"Kamloops is actually an Anglicization of a Secheatmen word which means the meeting of the rivers." (06:02)

This location later became the site of the Kamloops Indian Residential School, a central focus of the episode.

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Establishment and Legislative Foundations of Residential Schools

The conversation shifts to the legislative and ideological underpinnings that led to the establishment of residential schools in Canada. Celia discusses the influence of figures like Egerton Ryerson and John A. Macdonald, whose policies and reports laid the groundwork for compulsory Indigenous education aimed at "Christianizing and civilizing" Indigenous children.

William Durrymple highlights the paternalistic and genocidal nature of these policies, quoting Macdonald’s report:

"...if anything is to be done with the Indian, we must catch him very young." (19:49)

Celia elaborates on the evolution of these policies, noting the consolidation of various legislations into the Indian Act of 1876, which institutionalized discriminatory practices against Indigenous peoples.

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Experiences Within Kamloops Indian Residential School

Celia paints a vivid and heartbreaking picture of the daily lives of children at Kamloops, emphasizing the traumatic methods used to strip away their Indigenous identities. She describes the forcible removal of children from their families, often using cattle trucks, and the immediate imposition of dehumanizing routines upon arrival.

"They were given very austere, formal little uniforms." (33:29)

The episode details the harsh disciplinary measures, including corporal punishment, mandatory haircuts that erased cultural hairstyles, and the suppression of Indigenous languages and traditions.

Celia recounts:

"When Indigenous kids were taken and grabbed up and put into the boarding schools, that may have had some similarities. It was antithetical to all of what their life experience had been to that point." (24:25)

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Trauma, Abuse, and Long-term Impacts

The hosts and Celia discuss the severe psychological and physical trauma inflicted upon the children. Accountants describe bedwetting as a manifestation of deep-seated fear and anxiety, while the discovery of unmarked graves—215 children—has reignited conversations about the true extent of the atrocities committed.

Celia reflects on the emotional toll:

"Some people were there all year and only went home in the summertime. Then they would look at their parents and realize that these are terrible people who are on their way to hell." (39:15)

The episode also touches on instances of sexual violence and abuse, acknowledging that these stories often emerge privately as survivors share their harrowing experiences.

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Legacy and Path Forward: Truth and Reconciliation

The episode culminates with a discussion on the ongoing efforts toward Truth and Reconciliation. Celia emphasizes the importance of recognizing the resilience and warrior spirit of survivors, framing the discovery of the unmarked graves as a powerful call to acknowledge and learn from Canada's dark history.

"The 215 that lie in their respected resting places are actually teachers for all of Canada, for all of the world, to pay attention to what these schools were about." (46:29)

The conversation underscores the necessity for continued awareness, education, and meaningful actions to honor the victims and support Indigenous communities in healing and cultural revival.

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Conclusion

Empire Episode 271 serves as a poignant exploration of the Indian Residential School system in Canada, specifically focusing on the Kamloops institution. Through candid discussions and compelling personal accounts, the episode sheds light on the profound and lasting impacts of these schools on Indigenous communities. Hosts Anita Anand and William Durrymple, along with guest Celia Hague Brown, provide a comprehensive and respectful examination of this dark chapter in history, urging listeners to engage in ongoing conversations and actions toward reconciliation.

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Notable Quotes

• Celia Hague Brown: "Finally, I would say for most Indigenous nations, the preference is that you refer to that nation by the name they have chosen for themselves." (05:17)

• William Durrymple: "...if anything is to be done with the Indian, we must catch him very young." (19:49)

• Celia Hague Brown: "When Indigenous kids were taken and grabbed up and put into the boarding schools, that may have had some similarities. It was antithetical to all of what their life experience had been to that point." (24:25)

• Celia Hague Brown: "Some people were there all year and only went home in the summertime. Then they would look at their parents and realize that these are terrible people who are on their way to hell." (39:15)

• Celia Hague Brown: "The 215 that lie in their respected resting places are actually teachers for all of Canada, for all of the world, to pay attention to what these schools were about." (46:29)

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Further Engagement

For listeners seeking a deeper understanding of the subjects discussed, Celia Hague Brown's book Resistance and Renewal: Surviving the Indian Residential School is highly recommended. Additionally, becoming a member of the Empire Club offers early access to exclusive content, including bonus episodes and engaging community discussions.

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This comprehensive summary captures the essence of Episode 271, providing listeners—both new and returning—with a thorough understanding of the critical issues surrounding Canada's Indian Residential Schools.

Transcript

[Anita Anand]

If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat, community discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to empire [e-mail].

[Celia Hague Brown]

Close your eyes.

[William Durrymple]

Exhale. Feel your body relax and let go.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Of whatever you're carrying today. Well, I'm letting go of the worry that I wouldn't get my new contacts in time for this class. I got them deliver free from 1-800-contacts. Oh, my gosh, they're so fast. And breathe.

[William Durrymple]

Oh, sorry.

[Celia Hague Brown]

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[William Durrymple]

Oh, sorry.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Namaste.

[William Durrymple]

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[Celia Hague Brown]

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[Anita Anand]

Have you ever spotted McDonald's hot crispy fries right as they're being scooped into the carton? And time just stands still?

[Celia Hague Brown]

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[William Durrymple]

Hello and welcome to Empire with me.

[Anita Anand]

Anita Anand and me, William Durrymple.

[William Durrymple]

Now, in our previous episode with the wonderful Maya Jasanoff, we were discussing how the American Revolution birthed Canada. But today, in the final episode of our Canadian miniseries, we're going to jump forward 10 years to discuss, I have to say, a very controversial, very sensitive topic in Canadian history, that of the Indian Residential school. And we're going to look at the history through one particular school, Kamloops Indian Residential School. And I'm delighted that we are joined by Celia Hague Brown, co author of, well, this wonderful book, Resistance and Renewal, Surviving the Indian Residential School. And you've just told me, look, there's an even better updated version. Celia, tell us about the brand new spanking one that I haven't got yet that I'm going to get straight away. What is the book we should all be reaching for now?

[Celia Hague Brown]

So you could reach for either one. But really the one that you've just shown me, resistance and renewal, is embedded in this new version called Kamloop's Indian Residential School Resistance and a Reckoning.

[William Durrymple]

So, I mean, that sort of gives you a sense of the kind of energy and motivation in writing this book. We sort of said, you know, this is a sensitive topic to discuss. And I should tell you, Celia, that we have a discord community here at Empire where people discuss things amongst themselves. And there is a huge amount of sensitivity and also disagreement about whether, you know, first of all, from the point of were these schools truly evil or a product of their time and doing the best that they could in their time, in a time that was imperfect to these were out and out sort of genocidal acts of wiping out of people and their culture. And then we also have people discussing the nuance of this. You know, what do you call these Indigenous people? What is the right terminology? So let's start with the second bit first, because I feel that's an easier one to address in Canada. You know, there are all of these phrases that, you know, Indigenous people, First Nation, Indians. What is the right nomenclature to have this conversation in? Aha.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Well, this nomenclature is evolving rapidly, let me say. I would say that Indian, of course, we kind of know where all that came from. The lost explorers thinking they knew where they were. That word, however, persists in Canada in the form of federal legislation called the Indian Act. So it's a bit inescapable because people, we sometimes have it referred to as our apartheid policy. People have specific laws that pertain to them, and if they are registered as Indians and they have cards that show they're registered as Indians. So that word, as I say, persists. It's also used in common parlance when people are talking to each other. Quite often Indigenous people talking to each other might use that word. It's not appropriate for a white person like me to be using it, though, in common parlance under most circumstances. So after Indian came Native, and Native was a word that was quite acceptable for quite some time. So simply meaning born in this place. And then the next piece that kind of kicked in, I'd say, is First Nations, Metis and Inuit. And that comes out of the 1982 constitution where Canada distinguished itself as separate from Britain and First Nations. Metis and Inuit is really seen as pretty much government terms, first nations being again the registered nations with the federal government, Metis being a particular group of people most originating out of the Red river area around the Louis Riel times. And people could trace their ancestry there. It's sometimes used by people to indicate people who have mixed heritage. So they have one Indigenous parent, one white parent, or one parent from somewhere other than Indigenous. And then finally we have Indigenous at this point in time. Indigenous seems to be quite acceptable for a broad sweep.

[Anita Anand]

The same is true, I think, in Australia, where there's been a similar progression through various terms. Aboriginal, for example. And Indigenous now seems to be the term of choice.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Absolutely, yes. I would Agree. And there was a time when Australia. We seem to refer to Australians as Aborigines, and we certainly don't do that anymore. And then finally, I would say for most indigenous nations, the preference is that you refer to that nation by the name they have chosen for themselves, which makes sense. So, for example, Kamloops that we're looking at. Kamloops is a city in British Columbia based on the Claphamine word, Te Kamloops. And now the first nation who is adjacent to the city of Kamloops is Te Kamloops. Te Kwepem.

[William Durrymple]

Right. You know, at the risk of mispronouncing, I'm going to leave it to you to pronounce something that is quite.

[Anita Anand]

I've never seen you hesitate before, any term.

[William Durrymple]

I mean, I'm game to throw myself at a French word. I've been known to do a Gaelic word. But this one, you know, if I offend anybody, I'm already apologizing from the beginning. So, look, tell us about the people of Kamloops and where they are from and their history, because, you know, this is important to know why this school was, as some will say, destructive, as it was to so many people.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Well, indigenous people, like most people, live in places that make sense. Let me say that. So Kamloops is actually an Anglicization of a Sequathan word which means the meeting of the rivers. So this is a place where what are now called the north and South Thompson come together into the Thompson River. And it was a very important winter gathering place for indigenous people. It's also a. A very important salmon. River and salmon, as you may know, are integral to much life in the interior, whether it's we human beings or many of the other creatures who wander around.

[Anita Anand]

No wonder the Scots felt so at home in Canada.

[Celia Hague Brown]

So did my father, who came here to fly fish, but never mind. So this was a natural gathering place. And when the Hudson Bay Company was moving around, they set up a fort here in this area. So that was sort of the beginning of occupation of the land of settlement.

[Anita Anand]

Cedar, am I right in thinking that this was originally, as far as the Europeans were concerned, a place for trading beaver and gathering pelts and so on? This is part of the fur trade.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Yes, absolutely. And people coming west sometimes. British Columbia is referred to as the west beyond the west by Gene Barman, one of my favorite historians from UBC because of the Rocky Mountains, it's quite separate. But explorers did eventually make their way around, mostly through the north, a little more north than the way we go now, and of course, rivers were the most important way of, of following trade.

[Anita Anand]

And cedar, is there a sense that you get also in the USA that the indigenous peoples are being herded slowly westwards and that more and more peoples are being put into the west where they're then having to fight for their space? Is that not the case in Canada?

[Celia Hague Brown]

No. And as I say, the west, beyond the west, this is British Columb. It's a very different terrain than so much of what comes before. So within British Columbia there are 26 separate First nations, and a number of them have very little in common in terms of language, culture, etc. So there is a sweep from the north of Athabascans that come right down through the middle of the province. And the Tsukotin or Athabascan language group, this is a linguistic group, and that goes right down to the Navajo. So interestingly, I have a sister in law who's Tsokotin, and she attended the World Contest of Indigenous Peoples and education, met some Navajos, and they could almost converse in the language with each other. There were, you know, probably a few words that were different. That being said, the sequap machine entirely different from no shared. So rivers and mountains really kept people separate from one another. So there would be some back and forth and some trading and some this and that and some moving back and forth through territory. But overall there was quite a lot of distinction amongst the groups here.

[Anita Anand]

Cedar in some of the earlier episodes in this series when we were talking to Majasnov, for example, there was some sensation that the French in New France had a marginally more liberal attitude to the First Nations. Is that the case still in Canada by the early 19th century? Or are the kind of racial attitudes which are prevalent everywhere else in the world also making themselves felt in the west of Canada?

[Celia Hague Brown]

I have done some work in northern Quebec. I've done some filmmaking there with the Nascapi Nation. And I would say, I would say racism prevails across the country.

[William Durrymple]

Okay? So, I mean, you know, the French may have thought they were being more collegiate, but actually it's the same old, same old.

[Celia Hague Brown]

The issue with the French, and I hate to speak for Quebec, but the issue with Quebec is it's doing its very hard work to maintain its own nationalism and to keep its identity, pushing back against this Anglo juggernaut all around it. And in doing that, the focus is really on French, Francophone, Quebecois particularly. And when indigeneity comes in to challenge those understandings, those wishes, those goals, there's not always Sympathy for that.

[William Durrymple]

Okay, let's go right back to, you know, the 19th century and those early contacts. I mean, the story that we often get from the American side, which we've covered in detail in our American series, is that those first contacts inevitably brought waves of disease with them. You know, sort of smallpox infested blankets, influenza bugs that, you know, indigenous people just didn't have the wherewithal to fight in their bodies. Is that a similar experience in British Columbia, the people that you've been looking at?

[Celia Hague Brown]

Absolutely it is, yes. Smallpox being a very big one. And nations were decimated, literally, and probably even more than decimated by those diseases. Yes.

[William Durrymple]

But is the story of that early approach of people from Europe, is it on the back of the fur trade? Because we've covered beaver fur and the attraction of the fur trade, is that what brings these Europeans to Kamloops as well? And tell us a little bit about that story.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Oh, yes, absolutely. The establishment of Kamloops is based around the fur trade. There was a trading fort set up here that was the first inroad into Kamloops.

[William Durrymple]

And how soon after the trade is do the missionaries come?

[Celia Hague Brown]

In about 1862, the Oblates of Mary Immaculate came north. They had been in Oregon and things had not gone well for them. There was. And they decided to come north and try their luck with the Indians. Sorry, Indians at that time, they were calling them in British Columbia, and they came and founded the St. Louis Mission here in Kamloops.

[William Durrymple]

And what did that mission do way back then?

[Celia Hague Brown]

At that time, they were working to Christianize and civilize the indigenous people. And that was their goal, as the.

[Anita Anand]

Jesuits had been doing for 200 years earlier.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Yeah, so civilized and Christianized. And of course, we do have this federal government who was working away to ensure that these things were happening.

[William Durrymple]

Right. And at a similar time, you've got John Macdonald or John A. Macdonald or John A. I mean, I know many Canadians refer to him just, you know, as if he were a next door neighbor. John A. He is perceived to be the father of the Nation, Canada's first prime minister. Now, he is a figure of great complexity, and he's a key figure in confederation, bringing together these disparate parts of Canada with different languages, different religions, different politics, liberals and conservatives, and bringing them into this coalition to basically say, goodbye, Britain and also America. We're not you either. And so, you know, that is one of the things he's known for.

[Anita Anand]

Strangely enough, two weekends ago, I was staying with friends at the Highclere estate, and it was Pointed out to me over the valley where we were staying, that it was actually the place where the British North American act and the documents and a lot of the negotiations that led to the Confederation of Canada took place. And there was actually a display which sort of commemorates John A. As this guy who pulled the different federal parts of Canada into a single whole. But today he is a much more controversial figure and one who's remembered, really, for his very negative views of the Indigenous peoples and his attempts to, in verdicommas, Christianize, civilize, and bring them into line with the immigrant white population.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Yeah, I think he was definitely a product of his times. I think he was a product of his foundational upbringing. And I think it's very interesting. He was writing, working on the British North America act while he was sitting in Britain. It might have been much more appropriate to be tied to the land that he was writing about. And I think Indigenous people would think that that would be very important to have the land informing what you're doing at every turn. Yes, he's controversial. He is the founding father, if we want to put it that way. But I do think that at that time, general understandings of Indigenous people from Europeans were that they were inferior and perhaps even less than human. Hence the name of the book we were flashing, which actually translates to we become human again. And that is a pushback against current times, but it's a pushback against the whole history of the colonization of North America. We could say, but in this case Canada, I think it's a little complicated to collapse the US And Canada. I know it's partly me feeling distinct despite the fact that I have an American mother, but really the histories are quite separate because we didn't have a War of Independence. We had the British North America Act.

[Anita Anand]

Could you explain what that is, Celia, for those who don't understand it?

[Celia Hague Brown]

Well, that is our founding document, and that was what guided the formation of Canada and remained in place as the document that represented who we were as a nation.

[Anita Anand]

And correct me if I'm wrong, but before this, you had separate federal colonies.

[William Durrymple]

Yeah. You had Ontario, Quebec, New Brunswick, Nova Scotia. And then this is the document that pulls all of these together into some kind of united entity, which is distinct. Distinct from Britain, distinct from America. It is a country, a country with these different parts that all have the same aim or pulling in the same direction. And that's sort of. We're talking 1867 here. The other piece of legislation that you mentioned a little earlier, when you said, actually the terminology of Indian is Problematic now because it was used in legislation called the Indian act, and that is dated 1876. So I think it's a good idea to explain what that actually was and what that actually said.

[Celia Hague Brown]

So there were pieces of legislation pertaining to people called Indians at the time. And what you're referring to is the moment when those pieces of legislation were consolidated into the Indian Act. And I will say again, that Indian act still exists today. It has various revisions along the way, one of the most important being Bill C31, which addressed a sexist dimension of the Indian act. That was section 12 1, which said that if an Indian man married a white woman or a woman who was not classified as Indian, that woman would become a registered Indian. However, if an Indian woman were to marry a non indigenous or non Indian person, she would lose her status. She would no longer be an Indian. Now, that was addressed through a lot of work over many, many years, and finally that revision to the Indian act was done. But the Indian act exists now. It's constantly being looked at and Revised. In the 1950s, it had major revision. That's one of the places when education was a serious concern, particularly around the residential schools. And although they didn't end at that time, that was part of the legislation that began the changes to the schools.

[Anita Anand]

So, Sidi, you just mentioned the residential schools. And this is obviously something we'll be focusing in on now for the rest of this episode, because this is an extremely controversial matter. But first of all, it has a very long history, doesn't it? I think you mentioned 1605 is the date of the very first one. Could you take us through this story?

[Celia Hague Brown]

I'm taking this information from J.R. miller's book, Shingwok's Vision, where he does a really thorough examination of the history of residential schools across Canada. And he points to 1605 or 08 or something when the recollets were in New France. And they began by taking a few indigenous boys to France to be trained and Christianized and civilized. At some point they were a Franciscan order. At some point the Jesuits arrived. That didn't work very well, whatever they were trying to do. The Jesuits did the same thing, took some kids to France, but then they set up what they called a seminary, which was basically a boarding school. And they also tried to do the best way possible to get the children to become good Christians. One of the problems they were having is that as long as the kids were with their parents, the parents didn't have a very hard time amalgamating Native spirituality and Christianity. So it was always not the appropriate way that the Jesuits wanted to happen. So they made a big effort to have a little school and bring, I think, boys there to teach. And that also ended in failure. So they just gave up and stopped doing it. In my estimation, that failed experiment was completely ignored once the big push for residential schools got going.

[William Durrymple]

And the big push comes partly from John MacDonald who says, you know what? The residential schools is going to be part of this great united new land that we are making where everybody thinks the same, has the same culture, language even. He starts talking about how this is almost a God given purpose to create these schools, to amalgamate and change these people who are needing this kind of paternalistic guidance. So, I mean, talk about the actual sort of legislative part of this. And how do these schools suddenly get funding and suddenly start changing? You know, now it's not just, you know, a Jesuit trying his luck with a number of parents. It becomes law to do this. Can you talk us through that? Yeah.

[Celia Hague Brown]

I want to start a little bit before Confederation in 1847 with the province of Canada. There was a report done by Egerton Ryerson, and he was the one who suggested establishing schools to, quote, raise Indians to the level of whites. Now, he didn't say residential schools per se, but they quickly turned into residential schools. So then within 1867 was confederation and, you know, various provinces joined Canada along the way. So it wasn't always the 10 provinces and the territories. And when it got started at that point, then there was a bigger push towards residential schools. It was in 1876 that Nicholas Daven was sent to the US to study their industrial schools. And this is really the solid beginning of residential schools. Industrial schools in the US had been set up with President Grant suggesting they were a major component of aggressive civilization.

[Anita Anand]

Aggressive civilization, in this case, being directed at the native peoples.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Absolutely.

[Anita Anand]

And the idea was to create a blue collar workforce. Is that sort of inherent in the idea that.

[Celia Hague Brown]

They didn't say that right away? No. But when any examination of the schools is done now, they say there were three things that went on. The first thing was to Christianize. The first lessons were religion. The second lessons were skills, menial skills. And then a very distant third were some academic skills, reading and writing.

[William Durrymple]

One of the reports that your man Davin produced for MacDonald to read had, well, this is going to be hard for people to hear, but the report on industrial schools for Indians and Half breeds was the title of it, which in itself is going to make some people go, that sounds wrong. But it's the report that John A. MacDonald gets and it says, you know, little can be done with adults. Can't do anything for them, they are a lost cause. But for the children, as their tastes and this is a quote are fashioned at home. And his inherited aversion to toil is in no way combated. That's why adults are a washed out case. If anything is to be done with the Indian, we must catch him very young is a line from this report. And so that then becomes, you know, some may say in that kind of paternalistic, Victorian ish way of this is how we save you from yourselves. This almost industry of taking children from their parents, from that malign influence and just hot housing them in religion. And again, I'm using air quotes here. Civilization, Yes, I couldn't agree more.

[Celia Hague Brown]

That's exactly what that was about.

[Anita Anand]

And this parallels similar efforts in other parts of the British Empire. So you have similar legislation and similar schools being set up in Western Australia. You get similar stuff going on in Ireland and indeed in Western Scotland. Dedicated at the Gaels trying to stop them speak Gaelic.

[Celia Hague Brown]

And Wales.

[Anita Anand]

And Wales. Yeah, yeah. Now this has echoes at this period across the world. So if you're listening to this in Wales or in Western Australia, you will hear much in what is to follow that will sound very familiar.

[William Durrymple]

We're going to take a break very shortly, but just before we get to the break. Victorian schools were inherently brutal. I mean, they were here. You just pick up a dickens and you'll know what it was like to go to school here. Were they just as brutal as Victorian schools were brutal? Or was there something specific, dehumanising and violent about these residential schools?

[Celia Hague Brown]

I have often thought about boarding schools and how similar they might or might not be to residential schools. I actually have had a graduate student, a PhD student, who focused a section of her dissertation on arguing about the distinction. But I have always claimed when children were sent to British boarding schools, they were having their culture reinforced. Spare the rod and spoil the child. This was not shocking to them. A child should be seen and not heard, all of those kinds of things. When indigenous kids were taken and grabbed up and put into the boarding schools, that may have had some similarities. It was antithetical to all of what their life experience had been to that point. In addition, when English kids went to English schools, their language was the language. When indigenous kids went, they couldn't speak. And if they did speak their language, they were punished. So the clash of cultures that residential schools in Canada brought is unfathomable.

[William Durrymple]

Let's take a break here and then, you know, you've said a few things that I really do want to get into in more detail. You know, the scooping up of children. What did that look like and feel like, and some of the accounts that you've been gathering over the years of what it felt like to be in these schools. Join us after the break.

[Anita Anand]

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[William Durrymple]

Welcome back. And I should say that some of you might find the next part of this Empire podcast a little bit upsetting because it does involve children and it involves brutality. Two children. So we're going to talk about Deputy Superintendent General Duncan Campbell Scott. Now, even when I say his name, you're chuckling and it's not a happy chuckle, is it? Because tell us why he elicits such emotion when you say his name in Canada.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Now, perhaps one of his statements that represents his line of thought is his idea that we will continue until there is no Indian, until no Indian act, no Indians anywhere. They will be completely absorbed into the body politic.

[Anita Anand]

And he also used the rather dodgy phrasing the final solution for the Indian problem, didn't he?

[William Durrymple]

Well, I mean, we should say who he is, first of all, because we haven't explained why he would even what he says matters at all. He's a career civil servant. He joins as deputy superintendent of the Department of Indian affairs from 1913 to 1932. And as such, with that position and that power, he really does, you know, hold life and death in his hands for many of these indigenous people. So he has a very poor view. The children who are scooped up, how are they scooped up and taken away from their families?

[Anita Anand]

And it's by law. It's not by the choice of the parents sending them off for education.

[Celia Hague Brown]

It was 1920 when compulsory attendance became law in Kamloops. There was literally a cattle truck and into Kelmu Wheel. There's a photograph of the children in the back of the cattle truck. The truck would drive up, the attendants would get out and the children would be ordered to get into the truck. I have in both in resistance and Renewal and in Tekel Mihuil, there is the story of a woman talking about the day that the truck was coming, her father being aware that the truck was coming and him saying, I'm going now. You have to be here, you have to stay here and you have to go to school. And clinging onto his leg as he' out the door saying, no, no, don't go. And then the truck arrives and the children run in all directions to try and escape. They literally are grabbed and put into the truck. The picture that we see in the book, there's a mother who's holding a smaller child and walking away looking totally devastated. And you see this cattle truck with this, you know, wooden sides and all these children crammed into the truck, driving off to Kamloops Indian Residential School. That's a. From where this person comes from. It's about an hour and a half drive in the back of a truck.

[William Durrymple]

Can I use one of your own quotes, please? This is an account of Julie who describes, you know, her father crying and crying and she's sort of clinging to him. She doesn't want to go. And, you know, she runs away with other children. The truck comes. When she sees the truck and the truck's already got children in it and they are bawling their eyes out. She just remembers crying, asking her mother, what did I ever do to you? Why are you mad at me? Why are you sending me away? And she just doesn't understand. Actually, her parents don't want this, but they feel like they have no choice because the law is the law. What happened to people who said no, who hid their children away? I mean, surely some people would have said, actually, I'm not doing this. These are my children. I love them.

[Celia Hague Brown]

So sometimes it was possible to hide children. Not very often, but they would be charged. It was illegal. They would be charged with not sending their children to school. Whether they went to jail or not, I don't know.

[William Durrymple]

And what did they drive into? Paint us a picture, Celia, of what they first saw when they drove, I don't know, through the gates, through a. Is it remote? Is there anything near it? Just paint us a picture.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Well, this is a huge building. The building still is there, so anybody who's interested can go and see it.

[Anita Anand]

It's not unattractive in the photographs. I mean, it's quite a substantial and grand looking building.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Substantial and grand. And when you're a tiny child coming from far away and you don't quite understand what's happening, it is foreboding and scary. What is this gigantic place? I don't want to speak for the people in the book. I mean, I think people really need to see the words the indigenous people themselves say. But it was Julie I was thinking about when I was giving a little rendition. And you'll see in the book children saying they came to this place and they had never seen anything like it before. And then what was very, very scary for them after this ride was the people who came out the door. And they were very strange people, all dressed in black with everything covered except their faces showing out through little.

[Anita Anand]

These are nuns in wimples.

[Celia Hague Brown]

These were nuns. Yes, exactly.

[William Durrymple]

I mean, just Again, using the words that you've gathered from people who have recounted their feelings, Mildred, who was already afraid of white people, saw a nun in a black and white face approaching her, and she and her sister just began shaking and crying and backing up. It's such a visceral response. And she imagined the nun thinking, these little wild Indians, I've got to tame them, is what she thought was coming her way. So the first thing that happens is these children are then lined up and they are checked for lice, which, again, is a pretty dehumanising kind of almost like a vet check. And then they're given mandatory haircuts. Again, it's sort of a, you know, taking away of an identity and a separate look and, you know, an individuality. What were the institutional haircuts like? I mean, just, again, paint us a picture, if you will.

[Celia Hague Brown]

I think one of the really heartrending things about the haircuts is that for many of those children coming, they were aware that when someone had passed away, people cut their hair. It was a sign of respect and recognition of this person leaving. So when they arrived at school and had their hair cut, one person in the book speaks very clearly about, I thought maybe my mother had died, but these haircuts were for the little girls. They had braids straight across the front and then kind of a very short bob all around. And, of course, these were children who were coming with long braids. The boys came also with long braids, hairs cut very, very short as a result of this.

[William Durrymple]

I mean, you have basically an identical army of kids who all look the same. What were the clothes like that they were given?

[Celia Hague Brown]

They were all wearing uniform. So again, the clothes that they came in, and sometimes their parents dressed them up to go to school in lovely clothes, those clothes are immediately taken away. They were given very austere, formal little uniforms.

[William Durrymple]

We're talking smocks, the kind of Victorian little smock dress for the girls with smocks and the boys in shirts and breeches.

[Celia Hague Brown]

And that's it. Yes, that's right.

[William Durrymple]

Right. Okay. And then they're divided up into age groups. And so, I mean, we're talking about teeny, tiny children up to teens, aren't we? And what were the youngest children? What age were the youngest children who were taken?

[Celia Hague Brown]

Some children were actually four years old when they came to the school. And, yes, they were divided according to age, which was really hard for children who had older siblings. And they expected, you know, they would at least have the comfort of their older siblings. In addition, boys and girls were Separated as well. And again, one of the people in the book talks about how shocked he was because he came from a very large family. This is Gary Godferson talking, and I should say Mildred is Mildred Godferson, the late Mildred Godferson. Julie is Julie Antoine. Julie Antoine's very much with us and speak with her very often. Gary Godferson, Mildred's son, who attended Kamloops Indian Residential School, was one of 13 children. And one of his older siblings was like his mother, he said, and when he got to the school, he could not be with his sister, who had been basically his mother. So again, not only ripped away from his family and his home, but then completely separated from someone he saw as a parent.

[Anita Anand]

Really, the classic sort of horrors of English boarding schools are two things that always stands out. One is the hideous food, and the other is the terrible, harsh discipline and corporal punishment. Are both of these presumably present here?

[Celia Hague Brown]

Oh, absolutely. The food. Everybody talk about the food as being disgusting. Mush for breakfast, burned porridge. The thing about this is that. But when I was talking to people, I was very interested in how did they survive. And one of the things they did is what children do. They found entertainment. One of the biggest entertainments was somebody talked about taking their spoon, smacking the spoon up and down on the porridge, and you could see who could make the longest string of this glutinous muck. And that was one of their fun things. The other thing they talked about was the staff going and gathering, I think spawned out salmon from the banks, putting them in barrels, bringing them back and cooking them into disgusting chowder. They didn't all die, so I guess they were recently on the banks.

[Anita Anand]

And discipline, caning, corporal punishment, head shaving. What's the sort of stuff that's going on here?

[Celia Hague Brown]

All of those things. Very often straps. They talk about straps. They didn't talk about canes as much, describing the leather straps that were used to smack them. They were often had to take their drawers down to be smacked in front of other people. And if they ran away, they had their heads shaved. When they came back to that, they were to be watched. The other thing that they talked about in terms of discipline that's quite horrendous is many of the boys wet their beds and probably the girls did too. They had never wet their beds before, but when they got there, they wet their beds and they were forced to get up and clean their sheets at some point, put their sheets over their heads and stand there with their wet sheets on their heads. I mean, it's horrible.

[William Durrymple]

But again, it's the brutality of, you know, we did a series on Ireland and, you know, the Magdalene Laundries were sort of similarly just dehumanizing, robbing of an identity. The thing that's different from the Magdalene Laundries. And again, this goes to what you were saying before, which is, you know, sort of brutality in a Victorian school is brutality in a Victorian school. These things are common. But some run with your culture. That's what everybody's going through. And some run absolutely at your culture at great speed. And in these schools, in this particular school, you had a priest hammering it into the children that they are not to think or act or speak like an Indian. And he would reinforce that message with, you would go to hell and burn for eternity if you didn't listen to their way of teaching. So, you know, not only the fear of being caught speaking the language of your 13 siblings, but also hellfire, which, again, must have been a new concept, because what religion were the children who were coming here? What was their belief system and how different was it to the belief system being imposed upon them?

[Celia Hague Brown]

Well, it's a very complex set of spiritual beliefs where Coyote plays a major role. There is a creator. Coyote is a lovely character who wanders through the world, often making mistakes and doing crazy things and is, you know, has some problems with what he's done and falls over a cliff and dies. But then Rabbit comes and jumps over him four times and he goes on and on into the world making his next mistake. So it's a very gentle kind of teaching in that, you know, when he's making mistakes. The stories usually involve a lesson for children who are listening, but also a reminder for adults who are listening. The stories would be told in winter houses. They were only told in the wintertime. They'd be told in winter houses. And they were lessons, but lessons that showed you make a mistake. Don't do that. Kids being taught about not going into the woods, they'd be told, sneena is out there. Sneena is the owl. And if you go out into the woods after dark, Sneena is out there and she will get you. Well, it's an important lesson. Don't go out in the woods after dark because they're cougars and bears and all kinds of things. But the story is about the owl. So there's no comparison, really.

[William Durrymple]

No, there's no comparison. And it's sort of atavistic. And there's, you know, redemption, as you say, you know, the coyote figure. You know, there's redemption for him. He makes mistakes and he comes back. But now they go to a school that if you do this, you will burn in hellfire for eternity. You could burn in hellfire for, you know, this whole thing about thinking and talking like an Indian, you know, it's just for being who you are. How did the children suffer under that? I mean, you know, what do the accounts say of the kind of mental trauma you talked about, the bedwetting. But I mean, what else was going on in these tiny little minds when they're so terrified by what could happen?

[Celia Hague Brown]

I believe they were all traumatized and they discuss specific moments and times. But I think one of the larger ramifications of this is that, of course, when they did go home in the summertime, some of them were there all year and only went home in the summertime. Then they would look at their parents and realize that these are terrible people who are on their way to hell. So it completely interrupted family life as well. But I really want to emphasize not everybody, it's not everybody that this happened to, because I think it's important not to see every indigenous person who went to residential school as a victim. And down they went. Some people found ways to survive, and there were many reasons that they found those ways.

[William Durrymple]

I mean, really, really, really very good to point that out. Not everybody is a victim. Absolutely. But when we talk about these kind of scores in other contexts and the Magdalene Laundries again is sort of ringing in my head. Sexual assault and sexual violence takes place when you have children under the control of domineering adults who are not watched and are given carte blanche at this Kamloops Indian residential school. Was that happening at all? Did you ever come across that sexual.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Violence did occur in the school? People talked to me about the sexual violence. When I was interviewing people, however, they talked to me about the sexual violence and abuse after I turned my tape recorder off. So I felt it was not appropriate at the time that I was doing this research. I had to be respectful of what people were prepared to say. The research was done in 1986. This was long before people were talking about residential schools and the stories were just beginning to come to the surface. As a matter of fact, Resistance and Renewal is one of the first books that has indigenous perspectives about the schools represented. So since that time, of course, there have been incredible amounts of documentation of sexual abuse and all of the violence that occurred in the schools.

[Anita Anand]

In 2021, there was discovery of the remains of 215 Indigenous children in an unmarked grave were Those children murdered or did they die of neglect? What are we to make? I mean, this is much worse than burnt porridge.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Yes. And this of course is a very controversial topic. How they died. People don't know. Who's in the burial sites? People don't know. Some people are very dismissive of those sites and other people recognize that they represent horrors of residential school across the country. Exactly. Who's there? How many? What happened? We don't know. But residential schools were sites of death.

[Anita Anand]

But they're children. I mean, there are definitely graves of children associated with the school. That's clear. Is it?

[Celia Hague Brown]

That's definitely the understanding of what's there. What's happened is there has been radar detecting devices that have found material that appears to be graves. Can I just say something about the 215 because I do think that this has a really, really important moment. It is something that is causing huge controversy. There are people who want to be very dismissive. The 215 graves and other grave sites since that time around, residential schools finally brought non Indigenous people's attention to residential schools. Before that, despite the amounts of documentation, stories told, the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, people had managed to avoid thinking about these things. Suddenly, there was no avoiding. The conversations became much longer, much richer, much deeper. So I just see those 215 as being a really, really important impetus for people to acknowledge what Canada's history has been.

[William Durrymple]

At what point in Canada's history did it become unacceptable to have Indian residential school like this? I mean, when do they suddenly say, actually, you know what, these are wrong, we're going to close them all down.

[Celia Hague Brown]

There was not a watershed moment. I'd say the closings came gradually over time. Generally speaking, the schools are said to be in existence to 1985. Between 1838 and 1985, there were 134 schools across Canada.

[Anita Anand]

And Celia, just to again get this clear in people's minds, these are compulsory by law. You have to send your children off if you're Indigenous. When does that end? Or is that still in place?

[Celia Hague Brown]

It was actually after the revisions to the Indian act that occurred in the 1950s. And at that point children were then being allowed to go to public schools in various contexts. That didn't stop the residential schools.

[Anita Anand]

So in other words, not segregated schools. They could go with the same sort of schools everyone else went to.

[Celia Hague Brown]

But very often the residential schools became residences for children from outlying areas and they went from the residence to the schools to the public schools in town. So some of the horrors of the residential Dimension continued, although things definitely lightened up considerably after the 1950s revisions.

[Anita Anand]

Celia, we've nearly run out of time, but just again, to return. I'm still troubled by these 215 skeletons turning up. I mean, is there any suggestion on the skeletons, presumably they've gone through an autopsy that there's skullduggery, that there's violence on the bones? Is there a suggestion of physical abuse or neglect? We can't just leave it hanging like that.

[Celia Hague Brown]

These graves have not been touched. The people of the area have said that they must be respected and they will not be exhumed and they will be honoured and recognized. If there comes a time when these graves should be exhumed, then that will happen at that point.

[Anita Anand]

Celia, when the graves of fetuses and newly born children were discovered in the Magdalene Schools of Ireland, there was a massive national inquiry and a determination to make sure that this sort of thing never happened again. In a sense, you could say there was a positive outcome from this very, very dark piece of history. Is the same true after the 215 graves of children was found at the residential schools?

[Celia Hague Brown]

I think you could say the same thing. And I'd sort of like to put it in context of how to think about the schools and the people who attended the schools. This is really, in the words of a Haudenosaunee scholar. Her name is Patricia Montour Angus. She's passed away. She talked about the fact that first we were victims, then we were survivors. Now we are warriors. And I think what's really important to recognize with people who've attended the schools, now they are the warriors. That being said, the 215 who attended those schools fit even more with something that Patricia Montor Angus wrote late in life. She said, after we think about being warriors, we become the teachers. And I believe that those 215 that lie in their respected resting places are actually teachers for all of Canada, for all of the world, to pay attention to what these schools were about and to also see the resilience of the people who are continuing to move in and move on in the Canadian context, to declare themselves Indigenous in every way.

[William Durrymple]

A National Truth and Reconciliation Commission was set up in 2015 as part of the government's apology. There was an apology that was delivered for these schools, and there was a settlement over the schools. And it found that at least 4,100 students had died while attending these schools, many from mistreatment or neglect. William might answer the question. Others from disease or accident. In terms of Kamloops specifically, The commission identified 51 student deaths at Kamloops using church and state records. And it found. And this is the thing that's really painful, I'm sure, for the families that in many cases, families never learn the fate of their offspring who are now known simply as the missing children. So in their minds, you know, their kids might have grown up, might have gone on to do jobs. They don't know if they're in among the 215 or anywhere else. They don't know. And that must be the most heartbreaking thing of all.

[Anita Anand]

Celia, there's some sense that these schools have now been reopened in a more positive manner. Is that right? That they still exist but are now very much pursuing a different end with the different politics?

[Celia Hague Brown]

No, the schools themselves are no longer funded by the federal government, so none exist. However, those buildings are used by indigenous communities in a whole range of ways. From summer resorts to. Kamloops is being used for a whole.

[Anita Anand]

Range of activities associated with the indigenous people.

[Celia Hague Brown]

Oh, yes. Cultural revival, museums, archives, etc.

[William Durrymple]

Well, that is the greatest irony. Yeah.

[Anita Anand]

It's been turned around now into an institution which bolsters the identity of indigenous nations rather than having them deliberately erased, which was the initial point of them.

[William Durrymple]

Celia, it's a really difficult story to tell. Thank you very much for telling it to us. Celia Hague Brown was our guest on this episode of Empire. Let me tell you, our next episode is very, very different. We have something of a historical scoop or you. It really is very exciting. Related to indigenous communities not in Canada, but just south in the United States. An absolutely fantastic eye opener, mouth watering, great big red meat scoop with Mark Horton, the archaeologist who has made a mahusive discovery that seems to completely disprove, you know, the Roanoke. You love, you love telling the Roanoke story. The mystery of the Roanoke people. People who disappear. Yes, go on, quickly sum it up. Yeah, I know you do. But they disappear, all these people of Roanoke, the first settlement.

[Anita Anand]

So this is going right back to the very beginnings of English colonialism in North America. This is the first colony planted on the coast of what will be called Virginia. And when I think it's Sir Francis Drakes and it comes back to pick them up, everyone has disappeared. And all there is is these mysterious words written on a tree trunk. Croaton.

[William Durrymple]

Croaton. Croaton.

[Anita Anand]

And the suggestion is that they'd be wiped out by, quote, savages. But Mark Horton has recently returned and has other ideas.

[William Durrymple]

If you want to hear that episode right now, you know what to do. Join Empire Club for the price of a cappuccino a month and you can get early access bonus episodes Weekly Newsletters head to empirepod uk.com that's empirepoduk.com, tell your friends, tell your families, tell your enemies, tell everyone. But until the next next time we meet, it is goodbye from me, Anita.

[Anita Anand]

Arnand and goodbye from me, William Durmple.

[William Durrymple]

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[Anita Anand]

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[William Durrymple]

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[Anita Anand]

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[William Durrymple]

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