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Empire: World History
326. India’s Greatest Rebellion: The Indian Joan of Arc – Rani of Jhansi (Part 5)
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A
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C
See terms.
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B
So it's 1857. It is the middle of what some call the Indian Mutiny, others uprising. And the East India Company is to meet its most charismatic enemy.
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A
She is young, she is beautiful, she is widowed. And she has been robbed of her kingdom by British law and pushed step by step by the arrogant bureaucracy into war.
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B
And as legend has it, she endures a brutal siege. She straps her child to her back. She gets on her horse and called Bardel, or cloud, and leaps over the ramparts only to face an army later on dressed as a man fighting to the death.
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A
This is the story of the rebel the British admired most and could not control, Durrani of Janthi.
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B
Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Anand and me, William Durample. And as you know, we are now deep into our series on the events of 1857, either called the Indian Mutiny, the Great Uprising, the first, first war of independence, call it what you will, but without a doubt, this sepoy, what started was a sepoy mutiny and then gains momentum throughout India is going to change the map of the subcontinent. Let's start with where. Where did we start? Willie? I mean, where did we start with all of this? Just remind people who may not have heard the first two episodes, well, do.
- [02:56]
A
Go and listen to them, because it's such a cracking story. And however many times you reread these events and revisit the various personalities involved, it never ceases to fascinate. But we followed it from the initial spark of the Japattis, the mysterious Japattis passing from cantument to Kattuman, the grease cartridges. We've watched Meerut blaze, Delhi fall, seen the aged Mughal emperor restored. We've trudged through the horrific violence of Cawnpore, three successive massacres. And we left you at the last episode with the siege of Lucknow and the first attempt at its relief, which just ended up with more people stuck inside the residency under fire and short of food.
- [03:46]
B
Yeah. And you know, as so often happens in these situations, so many innocents lose their lives in so many appalling ways. It's been a grim few episodes. It's absolutely true to say you've got sort of incompetency, a certain amount of insensitivity. You've got British officers who are out for blood because they want to avenge the terrible series of events that go on in Cawnpore. You've got bloodletting on both sides. Today, though, we're going to get to an icon and it's somebody who every Indian child is given a little comic and I'm sort of no exception. This is what it is. Look, I'll just show you, okay? Yeah, there we go. Amar, Chitra, Katha. They do this sort of series of people who are, you know, of your heritage and you're meant to be very, very proud of them. And this is Lakshmi Bai, the Rani of Chansi, the warrior queen.
- [04:38]
A
And she is absolutely Anita, your sort of girl. And there are quite a few of them in this story. In fact, we've already briefly met the Begum Hazrat Mahel in In Luck Now. But Rani Lakshmi Bai is the most extraordinary story and I'd say rereading the episodes about her story, I'd forgotten what an amazing tale it is. She was virtually the only rebel that the British could bring themselves to admire. They're incredibly rude and call all the others savages and murderers and blood letters. But even the British, even at this most bigoted of moments in British history and imperial history, are absolutely enraptured by the Rani of Jiangsi. And her story is extraordinary. It has everything. You've got the wicked Governor General Dalhousie, who seems to weave his way in and out of our podcast every. Every few months. A stolen inheritance, a terrifying siege, a daring escape on horseback with a child strapped to her back. It's all too good to be true. And the final glorious stand. And as usual, however, with 8057, the reality is a bit messier, sadder, and arguably more interesting than the myth, 100%. Because the truth is that the Rani didn't want this war. It wasn't that she opted to become the rebel princess that she's remembered as. In fact, she is virtually shoved into rebellion by British bureaucratic arrogance. And in many ways, she goes out of her way, you know, arguably to collaborate and avoid becoming a rebel, but the truth is that she's practically shoved into. Into rebellion by British bureaucratic arrogance.
- [06:19]
B
And it's so interesting because the stuff that you've talked about, you know, sort of collaboration with the British is often left out of the Indian side of the story. That's not what, you know, Indians are told. She's just pure rebellion and resistance. That story of Lakshmi Bai. We are very lucky we have got such a fabulous guest to talk about this. Ira Mokhoti is with us. She's a fabulous historian of the late Mughal era. I've learned so much from reading her work and so speaking to her, like me, she likes a feisty gal as well. Welcome, Ira. Thanks very much for being with us.
- [06:50]
C
Thank you. Thank you, Anita. Thank you, William. And thank you for that very generous introduction.
- [06:55]
B
No, it's an absolute pleasure. I mean, just could you sort of give us a little bit of an idea of who she was? Because, you know, you've got the Joan of Arc, which is very difficult to live up to. You've also got this idea that Williams talked about as somebody who collaborated with the British that Indians don't get to hear about. So who was she really? When you say Rani of Chausi, who do you see before your eyes?
- [07:17]
C
So, you know, like a lot of people growing up in India, who I first saw when I started thinking about her is the image you show on the Amarchita Katha comic, which is iconic, which is shown in every, I think, you know, school and every child knows it, of this beautiful young woman, hair streaming down her back on a horse, preparing to jump off the wall of her fort into her legend and immortality. And when I started seeing, studying her a little bit more for my first book, I realized that a lot of the imagery around that icon, the elements are actually untrue or misleading or fabricated in some way. Or the other. You know, we have built up this image of who the Rani was. We don't even know for sure when she was born. Anytime between 1827 to 1835, take your pick.
- [08:05]
A
So she could be even younger, in her heroic phase. That is normally said to be.
- [08:09]
C
Yeah, yes, exactly. But I don't think so. I think she was probably born around 1820, 28 or 29. She is born into this family of Brahmins who are advisors to the Peshwas, the Maratha generals. And what happens, of great consequence to her later legend and her later life, is that she loses her mother at a very young age and therefore she avoids the hyper socialization that happens to young girls all around the world, of course, but most especially in India. So she does not learn necessarily how to be the perfect daughter, how to be a dutiful girl, how to be a very pious woman, how to be a good wife later on in life. Instead, she is educated with the boys of the Peshwa at the court of this Maratha general. She is literate, which is very rare for women in her time in India. And she grows up learning some of the other interesting skills which will come in very useful to her later on.
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B
So, I mean, just. Just to remind all of you, you mentioned the Marathas and the Peshwa, we've talked about them before in this podcast, but they were, you know, a very martial race in the Deccan who successfully pushed back against the Mughals. And so, you know, we're always, and particularly even later when it comes to Indian independence, are held up as this, this icon of resistance. And she's born to all of that. And when you say she sort of avoided all the needlepoint and all of that gubbins that we all had to. Women of that era had to. Had to throw themselves into, is that the same as saying that she also received any military training? Because, you know, that image of her leaping, you know, her horse leaping and going into battle, was there any basis to that at all?
- [09:57]
C
Yes, I think so. I think that is very much the case, because I would imagine. I don't know about you, Anita, but if you grew up never having learned how to ride a horse and as a young person, as a young adult, were made to ride a horse for the first time, I don't know if it's happened to you. It has happened to me because my children are riders and I tried at a later age and it was terrifying and I got off as fast as I could.
- [10:21]
A
The Normans used to say, you could make a horseman out of a boy by the age of 12, but never after that.
- [10:26]
C
I agree in this case, yes, absolutely. So I think it is almost inevitable that she would have grown up with the boys of the Peshwa court learning all these martial skills like horse riding, like shooting, perhaps wrestling, which she's meant to be doing as well later on in life. And so she grew up with the same skills that the boys at the court did because her father was too busy telling her, go back into the house and put the veil down on your face or learn your, you know, learn your religious duties. So that was a really interesting point to understand that this education as a child, the lack of a mother's influence, and this very rowdy, boisterous, all boy environment that she was in probably helped her to acquire all these many skills as a child.
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B
So, I mean, the pressure in those days was also on a woman not just to sort of learn how to be the ideal woman, you know, doing your prayers and then making sure the kitchen was well kept and everything else, but to get married. So, I mean, was there that kind of pressure from the family? And, you know, was she, was she very young when she got married? Because we know that she did get married.
- [11:33]
C
Yes. So there was a lot of pressure on the family. Her father, it was said, was quite worried about finding a good family for her to marry into. And finally he finds this King Gangadhar Rao in this small principality of Jhansi, who has lost his first wife and is quite desperate to find a second wife because he has no living heirs. And so liaison match is arranged between this very young girl, probably around the age of 12, 13 or 14, but.
- [12:05]
A
Not unusual at that stage to be married at that. That wasn't a scandalously young age at.
- [12:11]
C
Absolutely, absolutely. It was not at all scandalous. A lot of marriages were arranged even earlier. And then the girl would be sent to her bridegroom's house at the time of puberty. So this is not unusual at all. You see these kind of marriage alliances happening all the time, especially in elite houses where you have to assure heirs and children being born. You see these young girls getting married around the time of puberty. So sometime around the age of 12, 13 or 14, she's married to Gangadhar Rao as a second wife.
- [12:45]
B
You're absolutely right. Not unusual in those days. But I mean, we're still entitled to feel a little bit sick. I mean, especially those of us who have, you know, youngsters in our life. 12 is a. 12 is a child. It's Just a child. But is it at that point, Ira, that she takes on the name that is part of her legend, Lakshmi Bai, you know, named after one of the goddesses.
- [13:03]
C
Quite right. So she was born Manikarnika, which is a name for the. The river Ganga, because she is born in Banaras. She was from a family that lives there, it is said, according to one record. And that is a young Brahmin priest who happens to be traveling around Bundelkhand at the time of the uprising. And he actually lives in Jhansi for some months during these. These. The time of the uprising. And he says that her pet name, because, you know, in India, we are very fond of second and third names and pet names. She was called Chabali, which means pretty one. That was the name that she was called by. But she's called Manikarnika. And it is only in 1842 when she gets married that she takes on, almost like a title, the name Lakshmi Bai.
- [13:48]
B
So she's married, she's got a future mapped out. And most women drop through the cracks of anybody's knowledge at this point. You know, they just turn into baby machines. But there is something that happens which is particularly important, and we'll put her front and center of this rebellion. And again, we look back to Lord Dalhousie, who, as William said, it's like almost like a panto villain who appears on this podcast with alarming regularity. But he is the. The man who makes Duleep Singh sign over his Koh I no diamond. He is the man who comes up, most importantly here with the doctrine of lapse. Now, we should explain what the doctrine of lapse is, because it's absolutely pivotal in this story era. I mean, just. Just remind everybody what that means and how culture works at this time. His decision is.
- [14:40]
C
So when he comes to India, he's this very sickly young man, 36 years old. And when he lands in Calcutta, it is believed that he won't survive very long. He only maybe a few months because he's bent over with pain in the kidneys. But he does survive. And not only does he survive, he develops this sort of gargantuan appetite for the territories of India. It is as if he has this intelligence, insatiable hunger to swallow up more and more resources, more and more land into the East India Company.
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A
He never saw a province of India. He didn't want to make pink.
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C
That's right. That's right. And so he thinks up of this doctrine of lapse because he has realized that in India, you know, you have this sort of informal way in which children sometimes come to the masnat or to the throne. It if a ruling king or sovereign dies without an heir there's often a child adopted. And this is very normal throughout Indian society. It is called God Lena to take a child into your lap and it is done even today. I know of people who have an excess of children and will donate a child to a sister, to a brother for them to raise as their own. It happens all the time and it certainly happens amongst the, the elite, amongst the kings, among the ruling classes. And so when Rani Lakshmi Bai marries Ganga Dhar Rao he is already a very diminished man whose powers have been much reduced. And they hear of this doctrine of lapse that has been introduced by Dalhousie. And so Dalhousie has decided that if there is ever a ruler who dies without an heir this is an excellent moment to say well there's no heir that we accept who can take over the state so we shall absorb it into the East India Company also. They will be lapsed into us if we deem the ruler not doing a good enough job. So with those kind of subjective reasons you can imagine that a lot of territory was potentially in the line of fire in terms of Dalhousie being able to claim it as part of this policy of lapse. And it's clear that Gangadhar Rao and Lakshmi Bai had already heard about this in 1850 because when he falls very ill, Gangadhara, he gets very worried about this whole issue and he immediately adopts a five year old boy because they have had no children. Possibly according to one account which is not substantiated they had a baby who died very young. But whatever it is, when he is dying Gangadhar Rao there is no living heir for him to claim and so he takes on and adopts a relative. So this five year old boy Damodar Rao is a relative. And Gangadhar Rao makes sure to call in the English agent for him to come to court in front of the child, in front of all his courtiers and witness this very formal act of adoption. So that there is no uncertainty about the fact that this young boy is being adopted and is therefore the legal heir.
- [17:40]
B
I mean that's the plan. As we know, Dalhousie has very different plans. So you know, whatever the resident may say and smile sweetly and say yes, very happy for your, very happy for your child. In March 1854 the British Go ahead and they annex Chancey. Regardless of what the resident might have smiled and said to a dying king. So, I mean, what does that then lead to?
- [18:02]
C
So what it leads to? Astonishingly, and even before it is announced and made formal, Rani Lakshmi Bai starts sending letters and petitions to the English at Calcutta. And she starts, starts laying out her claim because she realizes what's going to happen. She's really well informed. This is something that, to me was quite astonishing to learn about this, that she's so well informed. She knows what's going on with the English, she knows what might happen to her beloved Jhansi. She starts writing letters, very well articulated letters, laying out her claim. And when she receives no positive replies, she hires a lawyer, a man called John. Language. So this was a slightly louche individual who'd been living in Meerut and he ran a weekly newspaper called the Mufasalite. And he. It was a pretty gossipy sort of broadsheet and he, because he was Australian, he really enjoyed making fun of the British. And he was particularly happy to fight cases on the behalf of Indians against the British. He had just won a very famous such case. He comes to see her. There's a big tent has been prepared. She is sitting behind the parda. The ground is covered in flowers. He is made to sit in front of the parda. And during the talks, which she carries on for many, many hours, from six in the evening, two in the morning, accidentally on purpose, her young son actually opens the curtain of the parda so that John Lang can see Rani Lakshmi Bai. And clearly Rani Lakshmi Bai realizes she is an attractive woman and it would be to her advantage to have this Firangi man see her and feel even more pathos and empathy for her cause. But despite all this effort, all the letters she writes, she will write to Dalhousie, she writes to his agent laying out her case very clearly, saying, look, we have always been very friendly with the British. Jhansi has been an ally. We have done nothing aggressive towards the British cause here, on the contrary. And she lists out the treaties which have been signed. 1803, 1817, 1832. She lists, lists out all the terms of the treaties and says, we have not done anything in contravention to these terms. How can you do this to us? Despite that, she loses her case and Jhansi does lapse to the British.
- [20:23]
A
And there's a very bad record, isn't there, of appeals to the East India Company. There are many attempts over many years of many different rumours to try and get justice. And they all seem to run into a quagmire either the letters not sent or they're not delivered or the lawyers turn out to be crooked, or the East India Company simply doesn't process the letters once they arrive in Leadenhall Street.
- [20:46]
C
Exactly. And in Lahimai's case, she gets no replies. And it is said that Dalhousie is very annoyed that she should have even have thought that she had a case to fight, which, practically speaking, means she must leave the fort. So there's an enormous fort in Jhansi where the ruling family had based themselves in. So she's made to leave Jhansi Fort and live in a mahal outside the walls of the fort within the city. And she is given a pension of 60,000 rupees a year, which is quite paltry if you compare it with, for example, Baiza by Sindhya, the exact Same in the 1830s was getting a pension of 600,000 rupees at this time.
- [21:29]
B
So, Ira, that sort of sense of resentment that, you know, look, you've taken from me, despite the fact I'm right on the law, you've everything from me. You've given me a pittance and you're squabbling over even the pennies that you've given me when I suppose 1857 comes along and there's news of people rising up against the British, that's going to be music to aggrieved ears everywhere, isn't it?
- [21:49]
C
Well, yes. And, you know, there are. There are a number of things that didn't happen before 1857 that make the people of Jhansi and of course, Lakshmi Bai really annoyed and resentful because they do things like they take away the revenues of two villages, villages that had been assigned for the maintenance of the great Mahalakshmi temple that Lakshmi herself is very attached to. They bring in cow slaughter which had been forbidden for a long time in the city. And we're not sure exactly why they do that, but they bring it in and Rani Lakshmi Bai and all of the people are really, really offended by this. They also refuse to allow her to access money which had been led by Kangadhar Rao in trust for his son. And she wants to use some of it for the sacred thread ceremony for her son, which is a very important ritual and part of the life of a ruler. And they refuse to allow her to access this money. So these few things that happen, all of Jhansi knows about it. They are furious. They really think it is, you know, extremely humiliating for their queen to be begging like this for money. And they see it as an affront on her dignity and theirs. So there is already a lot of resentment, annoyance and anger against the British at this point.
- [23:04]
A
So in May 1857, as we know, the mutiny breaks out in Meerut. It spreads to Delhi and Lucknow and initially Jhansi is quite quiet. But on the 5th of June, a full month after all the breakout in Delhi, the sepoys of Jhansi mutiny and they seize the Star Fort, a small fortification, and they also seize. Seize the treasury and the British community of which are about 60 Europeans. It's a small force take shelter in the main Jhansi fort which the poor Eldrani had just vacated. The mutineers surround them. The siege grinds on. The British, starving and desperate, there's only 60 of them anyway, agree to negotiate and they're granted a safe passage, a surrender and they believe that the sepoys will look after them. But as at Kanpur, the promise of a safe passage is not honoured. Now, Ira, tell us, is that anything to do with the Rani at all? Do you have any evidence linking her with any of this?
- [24:06]
C
So this is something that, as you can imagine, historians have thought a lot about and, you know, picked at all the information, at all of the sources. And I think the consensus today is that, and even at the time, the first few letters and, you know, communications that come out from the British is that the Rani has nothing to do with, with any of this. She is holed up, quite terrified herself, surrounded by the Sipahis herself. She is being threatened by them. They want her to hand over money and arms and ammunition to them. And they have, you know, they have a very strategically important threat to hold over her is that they will bring in another member of the same Nivalkar family which has many cousins and nephews and, you know, brothers, all vying for the throne of Jhansi. And they threaten her with bringing in another such man, a man who is willing to pay them and install him at Jhansi.
- [25:02]
A
I certainly found the same when I was looking at the mutiny in Delhi, that there was a strong urge with nationalist historians to make it a very unified national project, that everyone was rising up. In actual fact, the aristocracy is terrified of the mob. They, rather like the French, are aristocrats. That's in 1789, being afraid of all the people running around with guillotines. This lot do not want a bunch of rural peasants, which is what the British sepoys are recruited from, running the show and putting pressure on them. And Hakim Asunullah Khan Ghalib, the emperor himself, Zafar are all frightened of the mob. And you would say the same situation probably in Jaltc Initially, I would say.
- [25:43]
C
It was very similar. And I think another thing to remember about Lakshmi Bai is what is more important to her more than the British, more than British versus Indian, is being allowed to rule Jhansi. She wants to rule. She feels herself capable of ruling. She feels herself in a position to be able to rule the people who love her. Quite clearly, she spends the few years that she is in Jhansi ruling. You know, she does all kinds of things, things to make the administration of the city much more efficient. She holds soup kitchens, she gives money, she builds roads, bridges, all kinds of things that you would expect a ruler to do. She wants to be left alone to rule Jhansi. That is what it is. She does not at this point, I think, certainly want to be a nationalist icon for independent India of any sort.
- [26:38]
B
But there's also. I mean, there's another factor at play. I mean, Willi just touched on this. But there is this fear that, you know, if the mob rises up, they could sweep even you away. You know, however many soup kitchens you've put up, they're behaving in a way that to her would seem barbaric. You know, they're threatening her child, the child that she loves. And then something else happens. I mean, Willy mentioned that there is this very small presence in the fort of 60 Europeans. I mean, I should say, you know, they're not a fighting force. There are men, women and children here again. And on June 8, something really specifically awful happens that the British, just as they were in Kanpur, are told, you know what? We'll let you go. Just get out. We'll let you go, we'll escort you, we'll take you to safety, and you just leave. Just leave. But instead, what they do, just as in Kanpur, is they round up these men, women and children. They take them to a place called Jocken Bagh. It's a garden. And there again, as in Kanpur, a horrific massacre takes place which kills every single person in that group. I mean, tell us a little bit about that. And what is the Rani's overview? Because I'm thinking, you know, she's already really fed up with these guys who are threatening the inheritance of her son and threatening her and wanting her fortune. And then she sees what they are capable of to women and children. So what do we know about that period and her part in it or even watching or reacting to it?
- [28:02]
C
So it all happens rather quickly. They are besieged for only three days before they are ask for a truce. There's only 60 of them, as you mentioned. I think only four are military men. So there's not much of a fighting force, you know. So they don't want to be holed in there forever with the, you know, being besieged like there's running out of food and water. Initially they had a few servants with them. But over the course of the three days, the servants are taken away. They are killed when they are sent out and the few remaining soldiers with them go over to the other call. They go over to, to the Sipahis who are uprising. So the situation becomes very desperate very quickly. It is said that they send a messenger to the Rani's palace. At the time she is holed up in her palace outside Jhansi Fort. And this messenger is arrested by some of the Rani servants and killed. So whether the Rani herself is getting a direct message, we don't know. Whether she doesn't want to or is not able to is something we will never, never know. But she doesn't do anything. So these people eventually, after three days, come out of the fort having been promised safe passage. Now this is an interesting phrase as well. We are told they are offered. They would not have come out if they hadn't been offered safe passage. Now who offers them safe passage? Is it the Rani? Is it the mutineers? In the name of the Rani, are they using her name? Because immediately after this happens, of course we know they are taken to Joken Bag. The men are separated from the women and all are slaughtered. After this, the Rani immediately writes, the same day or the next morning, she writes to Major Erskine, the commissioner of the area. She says, what's happened? She says these violent, faithless, cruel and violent people have killed all the Europeans. They have behaved with much violence both against the Europeans and against myself and my servants. They have been extremely threatening. They have threatened to blow up the palace. They have threatened all sorts of aggressive actions. They have taken money, money from me. I had no option. And please come and help me because I don't know how long I can keep the peace at Jhansi after all of this has happened. So she asks for help from the British and tells them that she's desperately in need of some kind of aid.
- [30:20]
B
And right at the start, I mean, the British accept this. They say, okay, we believe you. If anything, it's a proof of loyalty, proof of concept, you know, that you can have her as your person, your woman. Not your man on the spot, but your woman on the spot. It doesn't last long though, this faith in the Rani, does it?
- [30:36]
C
No, it doesn't last long at all. So they said that they have never found. Even Robert Hamilton, who was an agent to Dalhousie, said that he never found a single piece of paper incriminating the Rani. So, you know, that is what we have, that there is absolutely no evidence that she was behind the massacre. On the contrary, she was probably pretty scared herself for her life and certainly for any chance of remaining in charge. And for a little while it seems like the British believe her. They tell her to take over the running of Jhansi, that things are in a turmoil and she must do what she can to maintain the peace and look after the state. And then it sort of goes silent. So Laxmibai at this state comes back into the fort. She claims the fort again and she resumes the running of Jhansi for a little while. But very soon the vulnerability of her position becomes clear because she is attacked not by the British but by her own own neighbors. So as we were discussing in the beginning, Jhansi is a small Maratha kingdom in a sea of Bundelkhan Rajput territory.
- [31:41]
A
These are the guys who've been in charge of this area for many generations. And the Marathas have only come in in the last 30, 40 years.
- [31:49]
C
That's right. So since the 17th century, you know our friend Bir Singh Deo, who was a friend of Emperor Jahangir before he became Jahangir when he was Prince Salim. So they established these forts, the Bundelas. Yeah.
- [32:03]
A
So these guys invade her territory and she is forced to raise an army herself. To defend herself.
- [32:09]
C
That's right. So she is almost immediately attacked by the Rani of Urcha, the neighbouring state, much bigger, which is run by Bundela Rajputs. And they figure this is the best time. It is a catfight.
- [32:21]
B
Oh, don't say it's a catfib. That's so awful. These are two very, very strong women. Bloody cat fight. It's two entirely powerful female, you know, rulers who are trying to do the best for their own interest.
- [32:34]
A
Cat fight. The patriarchy is at work here.
- [32:36]
B
I can't bear it. Carry on here. So look, this neighboring woman led assault is taking place.
- [32:43]
C
Assault is taking place.
- [32:44]
B
So. So. But what's interesting about the, the Rani of Chancey is that she trains a female out regiment.
- [32:51]
C
Well, apparently she does. Apparently she does. She does a lot of warlike things at this time, I must say, Jhansi is very well prepared for a small little principality in the middle of nowhere in India, in the very center of India. So she starts training her soldiers. She makes sure there's enough ammunition and it is said that she trains a group of women so just those. So, you know, this is not entirely unheard of in India. You do see it, you know, in various states.
- [33:21]
A
In Hyderabad I came across the Zafar Puttun who defeat the Marathas at one point. The women come down the hill when they're least expected and see the MARATHAS off in 1780 something that's right.
- [33:33]
C
And often the company of truth who are guarding the harem and who guard the palanquins of the royal women are all women fighters themselves. So it is not entirely unheard of.
- [33:45]
A
CAT fight so the women regiment seize off the invasion. Rani Jhansi is left in charge of Jhansi. The sepoys have gone off to fight elsewhere, but the British mood is hardening, having initially cleared the Rani of any collaboration with this uprising. And her letters have arrived and established her innocence. However, this is not how it's beginning to look to the British and they stop responding to her letters. And she notices this and she realizes that the British, far from coming to reinstate her, are actually now wanting to hang her more after the break. Now this is an advertisement from our old friends. Better Help. New Year always arrives with a certain historical confidence. Decorations, resolutions, dieting, plans, the belief that a clean break is possible if we simply will it hard enough and can do without the drink in 2026. Perhaps the idea isn't to become someone new, but to carry less. Whether it's quiet, self criticism, a role that you have outgrown, or expectations you're obeying long after they stop making sense. Therapy can help you notice what's been weighing you down. Not to fix or reinvent yourself, but to create the space to see what you finally might be ready to shed or put down. BetterHelp makes that first step simple. Answer a few questions and they'll match you with a qualified therapist. If it's not the right fit, you can switch at any time. You can't step into a lighter version of yourself without first letting go of what's been weighing you down. Talking to a therapist can help you make that space. Sign up and get 10% off@betterhelp.com empire that's betterhelp.com.
- [35:43]
B
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- [36:15]
C
Hi.
- [36:16]
D
Everybody, it is Dominic Sambrook here from the the Rest Is History. Now, you have probably been watching the scenes on the streets of Iran. You may be wondering where all this comes from. So on the Rest is History. We have just recorded a four part series on recent Iranian history. So it kicks off with the Iranian revolution that brought down the Shah, Mohammed reza Pahlavi in 1978, 1979. And it's actually his son who is now leading opposition to the Ayatollahs from exile in the United States. So in this series we explore the history behind the Islamic revolution in Iran at the end of the 70s. Where did people like Ayatollah Khomeini come from? Where did their ideas come from? Why did they have so much support? Why was the Shah driven out of Iran in the first place? And what did it have to do with American intervention and indeed British intervention in the 1950s? And we look at the unfolding story of the revolution and then the amazing story of the SEIZURE of the US embassy in Tehran, the taking of initially 66 hostages by the Iranians. This is probably the story that I most enjoyed researching and writing. So please, if you're interested in Iranian history and what's going on, check it out. And if you want to taster, we have a clip for you at the end of the day this episode.
- [37:41]
B
Welcome back. So just before the break, we saw that the British looked upon Jhansi, now that was actually attempting to protect its own borders from its own neighbours as becoming far too militarily adept. And why are they arming themselves? Of course, the British, after that terrible Jorkin massacre, start thinking with chaos breaking out all over their territories, that maybe she's one of them, maybe you know she was lying. She did have something to do with both the massacre and this defiance that, you know, the East India Company is seeing, seeing everywhere, like these little fires breaking out. So Ira, how quickly before the British decide she's the one who has to go, she's the one who has to pay for the Jorkin massacre.
- [38:20]
C
So by 1858, I think things have changed a great deal. And the Rani senses this. The mood in England has changed a lot from earlier, having some sympathy perhaps for the Indian Cause now, having heard of all these various, various massacres, the mood has changed completely and there is a real loathing for this, for these people who will just massacre innocent women and children. People like Charles Dickens himself launch themselves into criticizing, you know, the, the Hindus. And he says, imagining himself addressing a group of Indians, he says, I have the honor to inform you Hindu gentry that it is my intention, with all merciful swiftness of execution, to exterminate the race from the face of the earth. So it has now become the epic of the race. So things have changed completely and now it, I think it matters very little how responsible or not you actually are. Now it's about who will pay the price for these massacres. And very soon, in 1858, the Rani realizes that there are no answers coming. Nobody's coming to help her or to even communicate with her. Her, she's on her own and she's going to have to defend herself.
- [39:30]
A
And the person that the British send against her is actually quite an interesting character. We've met already on this series, a whole variety of British buffoons, but Hugh Rose is not one among them. He is a highly professional, cold, ruthless and extremely efficient soldier. And he's marching on Jhansi in March 1858 with unambiguous orders. Crush the city, sweep through Bundelkhan, crush the rebellion. And on March 21st era, he arrives before Jhansi. What happens?
- [40:05]
C
So up till this time, Hugh Rose has been, as you are saying, he has been pretty much crushing everybody and everything that he sees in front of him. And he is quite, quite scornful when he arrives to a Jhansi saying, I doubt they will be able to hold out much longer. Though when he starts coming closer to Jhansi, he notices that a lot of preparation has already taken place because Lakshmi Bai has carried out a scorched earth policy all around the city of Jhansi. But Hugh Rose does comment on this fact that they seem to have made preparations. Not only that, but the. The fort is actually a very decent, well built structure with many crenellations, with many loopholes. And all of them have muskets and cannons and batteries on all those heights. And all those loopholes are manned. There's not a single one which is just, you know, has been left to chance.
- [41:03]
A
And she issues Ira a proclamation. Tell us about that.
- [41:07]
C
The proclamation, I'm not sure it is, you know, it is true. I'm not sure that she actually said.
- [41:14]
B
It'S too good to be true. It's too bloody good to be true. Shall I read it and then you knock it down and make us all very depressed. This is what we're told. She says, you know, when surrounded by the inevitability that the British are coming, okay, Even though she's made all these decisions to make it very difficult for them to take Jhansi, she says to her people, we fight for independence in the words of Lord Krishna. We will, if we are, are victorious, enjoy the fruits of victory. If defeated and killed on the field of battle, we shall surely earn eternal glory and salvation. And now you're going to tell me she never said it. She never said it. Go on, Aaron.
- [41:50]
C
I doubt she said any of that. I really do. I really do. She was not, I think even at this point with the men, you know, with the forces lined in front of her, I don't think she was looking for a fantastic death in battle and salvation. And I doubt, you know, Durga and Lakshmi were her deities. I doubt she would have invoked Krishna.
- [42:10]
B
Yes, he's a bloke.
- [42:12]
C
I'll tell you why he's a bloke and I'll tell you why. In the months leading up to the siege, she does a lot of what I would call morale boosting in the city. And she carries out this huge ceremony called the Kumkum Haldi ceremony when she learns of the people fleeing from the city before the arrival of Euro's forces. And she thinks she needs to find a way to, to get the people to stay, to be behind her, to live in their city so that she has something to defend. And she holds this enormous celebration in which married women are invited into the fort. There's a whole dozens and dozens of women line up next to the Rani to greet them. Rose petal with perfumes. And they come into the fort and they feast and they, you know, celebrate this occasion every day. They are Durga Puja. So she arranges for a puja to the, the deity Durga, who is the.
- [43:00]
B
Goddess, Goddess of power. Right. If you don't know who she is.
- [43:03]
C
Exactly. So she is praying to Shakti. So if she were to make any proclamation, it would be the name of Durga or Shakti, you know. So I'm very suspicious about this proclamation. But nonetheless, no doubt she gallivants, you know, she gets her forces to gather around her. She's very good at this. She has done this for, for months to inspire her leadership. She is there amongst the men. We are told that the besieging forces see her on the ramparts once the fighting starts. She's there encouraging her men, making sure. The batteries are repaired, making sure breaches are repaired as fast as they can. So she is in the thick of the action and I think that is the greatest encouragement that she can give her people, rather than a declaration, which is quite suspicious. She is there. She has shown her people that she's willing to live and die alongside them.
- [43:56]
B
Yeah. And I mean, the imagery of the comic books and, you know, everything that we started is that she's dressed as a warrior. You know, she puts away the diaphanous, you know, saris and veils and all of that's gone. She's dressed like a fighter. But still, you know what? This is difficult. You know, Rose is a. What we haven't mentioned is that he is a veteran of the Crimean War. This is a fighter who is a. A good fighter who knows his business. So it. It really does look as though, you know, she will be crushed. And if she's crushed, then she'll be executed. It'll be the end for her.
- [44:29]
C
One of the soldiers writes that there's no longer, day or night, that fighting can continue for 24 hours, because now there are fires being lit up everywhere. So when, you know, a shell falls onto, say, firewood or grass, then that it bursts into flames. There are lots of. Lots of little flames all around Jhansi Fort and the city of Jhansi. So the place is lit up day and night. So it's a vision of hell by this point. And suddenly the Rani hears because she has been sending out, you know, signals for help, for various people to come and help her. And a few of the. The smaller parties do come to her side. But then she hears about the arrival of Tantia Tope, who is this great guerrilla general who has already had enormous success and who has become a folk.
- [45:12]
A
Hero of sorts, who's also a Maratha too. Very much on her side, rather than the Rajput of orchard zone.
- [45:19]
C
Exactly, very much on her side. So when the forces being besieged inside Jhansi, from the parapets in the distance, they can actually see Tantia Tope's forces and he has an enormous force. And apparently, according to the soldiers, again, a huge, huge hurrah of celebration rings out from the fort. Because the people are so delighted to see Tantia Tope. They know that he is their ally, he has come to rescue them. And there's this huge sense, for a little while of relief, of having somebody else they can count on.
- [45:51]
A
But it doesn't go well. Rose, in this very tricky position with armed forces in front of him, pulls off a Remarkable strategic maneuver.
- [46:01]
C
Remarkable. Really remarkable. He is able to turn around, outflank them, and with lightning speed, he basically pushes them away. I think despite Tantia Tope's forces being very substantial, Most of them, 90% are raw recruits. So they are very scared when they face this massive barrage of Hugh Rose's guns and officers and men. And they are dispersed. And it is a more moment, I think, of utter desperation at this time for the Rani and her people because initially, having thought, okay, we will be rescued, we can do this together, there is utter, utter despair because not only have they been dispersed, but they have seen again the power of this British army that they feel now that they will really not be able to withstand much longer. But there is clearly this consensus amongst the. The entire population of Jhansi that they will fight to the end. You know, so it's really this fight unto the last of everybody concerned in Jhansi and they meet this resistance at every point. It is hard work for them to get up to the fort.
- [47:08]
B
And also, let me just describe what hard work actually means because again, as we've seen, you know, this, the Devil's wind, as they call it in Delhi, or, you know, this red mist, this. This flow of blood through the streets. Basically the British are bayoneting anyone that they find. Civilians, it doesn't matter.
- [47:27]
C
Whoever doesn't matter.
- [47:28]
B
It does not matter at all. And you've got sort of the Rani's personal guards and this is sort of testament to, you know, her charisma as a leader. They form this. You shall not pass war. And to a man, they are cut down. At this. This point, though, this is where many of the comic books kind of, you know, really sort of build the part here. And if you tell me again, so. So as the story goes and as the sort of comic book picture is, on the night of. Of April 4th, she takes her adopted son, the mother, and she straps him to her back and she escapes the fort. She jumps from a parapet onto a waiting horse. And the horse, horse jumps over all of these, you know, sort of bits of debris and ramparts and gallops off, taking our heroine to freedom.
- [48:18]
A
The horse even has a name, doesn't he?
- [48:20]
B
Badal Bar the Cloud. That's right, Bardel the Cloud. All right, how much of that is bullshit, if I may put it that way?
- [48:27]
C
Most of it. Anita, thank you.
- [48:29]
B
Great. All the best bits of this story are rubbish, okay?
- [48:33]
C
It's not sad. It's not sad that it's even better. It's even more heroic because it's one thing to just blindly, you know, kind of jump off the fort like this, but it is another thing to face despair. And we are told by the same young Brahmin, Vishnu Bhad Gotse, who is passing through Jhansi at this time. They are all holed up inside Jhansi fort, all the non combatants, if you like, the Brahmins, the women, they are all in this underground shelter of the fort. And he says that when the walls are breached, when they hear this huge noise, deafening roar of the battle, when they hear the cries of the cattle who are dying, the dogs are howling and all this vision of hell, there's a moment that night that the Rani is desperate and desolate and she has given up all hope and she gives up hope and she suggests to her followers that they escape as well they can and that she will, will blow herself up with her fault that she refuses to go on any longer. And to me this seems very poignant because this is a human frailty. We can all empathize with this, that we are not all born magnificent warriors. We have to find it within ourselves. So she has a counselor who advises her against this. And then, so what she devises then instead is that while the British soldiers are at this point apparently drunk on Luke Loot because they have come upon, of course, the palace of the Rani, they have found all this jewelry, all this, the statues of the gold and the bronze and all the enormous amount of wealth that they see around them. It is a day of absolute anarchy and plunder and mayhem and bloodletting and they are in this state of stupor. And so the Rani, with a few hundred followers is able to, at the middle of the night, tiptoe out from a gate and, and basically walk over the fallen, stupor ridden soldiers and make their way out of the fort. And the next morning, Hugh Rose is absolutely horrified to discover this.
- [50:34]
A
Ira, what's your source for that? Because Bonkers.
- [50:37]
B
Yeah. How do you do that?
- [50:39]
C
It's the Vishnu Bhad Godse.
- [50:41]
A
So he gives this much more human version.
- [50:46]
C
Much more, yes. And he says that she was that night extremely disheartened, crestfallen, desperate, and she has a moment of complete despair.
- [50:58]
B
So that's the long night of the hart. But I'm just trying to imagine how you tiptoe with a few hundred people over sleeping soldiers. I mean, to me, you know, jumping over a wall on Barthel, the horse, you know, the flying horse. I mean, that seems almost as credible as leading the people over sleeping soldiers.
- [51:17]
C
Poor Badil would have definitely broken all four of his legs and the queen would have died as well. It is a very high wall. It is a much larger for than we imagine when we look at the Amarchitzakatha comics. So that is patently impossible. And as well, for her followers to have done the same thing like an Olympic sport. So instead, what is much more likely, and we can imagine that this would be to. When we understand the sort of plunder, the sort of madness that came over the men, whether in Lucknow, whether in Kanpur, when they come into this mode of retribution, you can read it in the soldiers accounts that they become almost demonic in their search for justice and vengeance. And they become drunk on the sense of them having achieved victory. And I can fully imagine that they would be drunk also, literally and lying in the estate. Maybe one of the. One of the entrances. Because this is a very huge fort with many, many gates. One of them had fewer alert Sipahis or men guarding it. The fact is, she left in the middle of the night with a number of followers and they were horrified.
- [52:24]
B
The lesson I'm taking from you, Ira, is don't get your history from a comic book. And I hear you. That's fine.
- [52:29]
C
Okay.
- [52:29]
B
All right. It's fine. So where does she go? Where does she and her followers go and what happens next?
- [52:36]
C
So things at this point for the Rani, of course, she has, you know, given up everything. She has. This is the time for, I think, in my mind, where she has finally given up Dhansi, having left it in this manner as a warrior, she knows there is no going back. The British now will never forgive her. There is, you know, nothing to be saved. They keep riding on through the day, a few of them, because obviously Hugh rose when he discovered he is horrified and furious and sends off a party to capture her. And they come very close because they kill some of her men and they find her tent, you know, which almost in those, you know, spy thrillers, the person comes up to see whether the cup of tea is still hot or not, whether the person has just left.
- [53:18]
A
It is still hot.
- [53:19]
C
It is still hot. The tent is very beautiful. It clearly is a woman's tent. And she has just. Luckily, she kept her pearls. So she goes on and goes on to towns where there are still, you know, a bunch of rebels holding out. So she goes to Conch and then Kalpi. In both of these cities, there's a last desperate stand along with Tantia Tope.
- [53:41]
A
Tanchi Topi's turned up again at this point. She's Joined up with him.
- [53:45]
B
Better late than never. Yes. Okay.
- [53:47]
C
That's where he had, in fact, retreated to. And after having been defeated twice, Hugh Rose and his men, you know, whose heads are now spinning with the sun, one shouldn't mention these things, but they have diarrhea from the heat. They are really, really unwell men. And they think this is the end of it. Because with Kalpi having fallen, a very, you know, a substantial defeat at this time, they feel it is now all over. But it actually is at this point that the rebels make this incredible decision that nobody is expecting. So they have been going on a path from Jhansi headed northeast, vaguely towards Lucknow. So it is as if Hugh Rose is sort of herding them, you know, like a sheepdog, herding them along a northward path, clearing all of Bundelkhand up to. Up to Lucknow. But instead, at Kalpi, they do a hard left and they head west straight across the country to Gwalior. Now, nobody was expecting this. I think the British certainly were not expecting, expecting this.
- [54:49]
A
It's a fantastic fort. It's one of. One of the great forts of India.
- [54:52]
C
Exactly. It is not a fort to be lost to this bunch of, you know, vagrant rebels as far as the British are concerned, but they do land up in Gwalior. And this astonishing thing happens is that while the king, Jayaji Rao Sindhya is very loyal to the British and he, in fact, escapes to the British in Agra, all his troops, Tantia Tope, is able to, you know, charge them up to the extent that they come over to the side of the rebels.
- [55:22]
A
This importantly, is another Maratha army. So Tantia Topi is appealing to his own people at this point, as is. As is Lakshmi Bai.
- [55:31]
C
Exactly right. So these people now have this, you know, very important army. They are delighted, the rebels, obviously, Dantia Topa.
- [55:42]
A
Neptune favors the brave.
- [55:43]
C
Yes. Rao Sahib. They can't believe their luck and they spend a few days feasting and banqueting inside the fort of Gwalior. Meanwhile, Lakshmi Bai has a very bad feeling about all of this. She doesn't think that Hugh Rose is going to let this go so easily, and she decides not to stay within the fort of Gwalior. It is also said that these rebel leaders do not give her the sort of authority that she would want, that she perhaps asked for unit to command. She wanted to fight at the head of her forces, and they wouldn't allow that. So she stays away from the fort. They stay inside the fort. She is outside in an area called the Ful Bagh. And with 300 of her. I think these are the Vilayati forces, the Afghan forces. They keep patrolling Gwalior. And that's when they come across a force sent by Hugh Rose. I think it's the eighth Hussars. And they are the ones who finally kill her in action.
- [56:42]
B
Hang on. No, wait. And I'm not taking it from a comic book. You can't just say killed in action, because this is one of the big things that lends itself another set piece of pornography.
- [56:51]
A
Absolutely.
- [56:51]
B
Yes, exactly. Okay, so tell me, I mean, what do we know about the manner in which she died? Because, again, there's so much that's been slapped onto this, you know, idea that right till the end, bleeding and broken, she's still defiant to her very last breath. I mean, what do we know about how she was killed?
- [57:10]
C
So what we know about her now at this point is that she is very much the warrior queen that we imagine from legend. She is wearing her jodhpur, she is wearing her Kamaban, she's got her talwars. You know, she does have a beautiful pearl necklace that is given to her from the treasury of the Sindhis. But she's on her horse and she is continuously patrolling. So she has her tents where she spends her days outside of Gwalior Fort in a condition, you know, which would have been very difficult for her as a queen who has been, you know, raised as a queen in Jhansi. But she lives in her tents and she keeps patrolling the area because she is very anxious about the arrival of any British forces.
- [57:51]
A
Is she effectively acting as the first line of defence? Is it a small force or is this Hugh Rose's sort of enormous army?
- [57:59]
C
It is not the whole Hugh. Huge force. It is a reconnaissance army. It is the eight Hussars. So these cavalrymen have been sent out to see what is happening and to see the lay of the land. And she is kind of doing the same thing, patrolling at her end. And she has run right into them and they think it's a party come to attack them. They attack immediately, immediately. And we have several accounts. Difficult to say which one is exactly correct, because the hazards themselves at this point, even after they have killed her, don't know that they have killed her. They think she is a man. She is dressed like a man. One of the accounts say that all we could make out was that this little force of rebels was fighting and then they start to retreat in. In chaos, in absolute mayhem. And there's only this one small figure who tries to, you know, Encourage them to remain. We couldn't make out who that figure was.
- [58:52]
B
That's interesting. So they do say that there's one tiny thing who they think is just one of the young soldiers who's there is rallying the troops, saying, do not run, turn round, stand and fight. Okay, either she is sabred through or she is shot by a pistol. We don't know whether. But she's wounded. She doesn't die immediately, Ira, because, I mean, that's important. So she does have last words, right?
- [59:15]
C
No, no, no, no. We don't know if she dies. I'm so sorry, Anita. I seem to be disappointing you at every stage, but your comic is going.
- [59:24]
A
To be very disappointing.
- [59:25]
B
Well, I've learned it. I've learned a valuable lesson. All right, okay, so what, what do we know then?
- [59:31]
C
What? A witness, Hazar from the time who was part of this battle says that she gets one wound across the thigh, okra across the back, we are not sure which. She turns around possibly and tries to shoot at her assailant or reach out for him. And then she is hit point blank on the head. So possibly she may have died very immediately or very soon afterwards. Her body is taken away immediately by her soldiers and it is burnt on a pyre almost immediately to maintain the sanctity not of her parda, because she. She was not in parda, but of her body, that it should never be violated by any enemy. So we don't know anything about last words. I'm afraid she was probably too wounded by the time she then died to have said very much.
- [60:20]
A
Hugh Rose, when he hears about her death, he says the Indian Mutiny has produced but one man. And that man was a woman remarkable for her beauty, cleverness and perseverance. The most dangerous of all the Indian leaders. That's quite a recommendation.
- [60:40]
B
Yeah. I mean, look, we've come to the end of our time together, but I mean, you know, it's talk like that from Hugh Rose and, you know, the whole sort of mythology of this woman who's sort of standing alone telling people turn around and fight, that has led to her even now becoming, you know, being a nationalist icon and becoming politicized. I mean, let's just spend one minute before we leave era just talking about, you know, how this has played into politics even now. Because when you see a poster of her, you see this cry, you know, this dying cry that supposedly in the.
- [61:11]
A
Second World War there was a whole regiment, the Rani of Jhansi Regiment, the Ina.
- [61:15]
B
Right. But I mean, you know, this cry of Map Ni jhansi nahi dungi. I'm never going to give up my Jhansi. You know, that. That then becomes a huge slogan for the independence movement in the 40s. Where does all this stand now?
- [61:27]
C
And.
- [61:28]
B
And do people still fight over her legacy or is it just accepted, you know, she is who Indians want to be?
- [61:33]
C
I think the whole imagery iconography of Bharat Mata of India as this warrior goddess is politicized because it feeds into this Brahminical, patriarchal mode of how women can be. So if you cannot be a pious daughter and a pious wife, if you're lady, your destiny is to be something else, then you must be Bharat Mata. But if you look behind the layers, it is a Bharat Mata. It is a warrior queen very much within the confines of Brahminical, you know, patriarchal norms. So you will be a woman who will fight, yes, but you will, you know, give birth, hopefully, to valiant sons who will. Who will fight just like you, but only for a certain cause. And against one of the darkest scandals.
- [62:20]
A
Of the modern era.
- [62:21]
D
A billionaire financier, powerful friends, hidden networks, and questions that refuse to go away. Was Jeffrey Epstein a spy? I'm Gordon Carrera. And I'm David McCloskey, and we're the hosts of the Rest Is Classified, the intelligence and national security podcast from Goal Hanger. And we've just released a gripping new series investigating whether Epstein was linked to any spy agent agencies and asking what those agencies might have known about him. Listen or watch now on Spotify, YouTube.
- [62:51]
B
Or wherever you get your podcasts.
- [62:58]
D
Hi there, it's Dominic Sambrook again from the Rest Is History. Now, I mentioned during the break that we have a new series on recent Iranian history. So here is a short extract for you. If you want to hear the whole series, then search for revolution in Iran on the Rest Is History. Wherever you get your podcasts or search for us on YouTube, There are crowds in the streets every day. There are attacks on banks and restaurants every day. And already in some. Some towns in Iran, power has been taken from their legitimate authorities and it's been taken over by Revolutionary strike committees. Now, if you're with the revolution, this is very exciting. If you're not with the revolution, it is terrifying. And in his memoirs, Ambassador William Sullivan describes standing at the US Embassy and looking out through an upstairs window. And he sees in the distance, troops holding back demonstrators. He sees cars burning in the middle of the road. He sees smoke rising from burning buildings. And he thinks, something has to change. We have to do something. So on the 9th of November, he sends a secret cable to Washington with the title Thinking the Unthinkable. And he says the Shah is finished, it's over, and if we don't act now, Iran, which is so vital to us, will slip out of our hands forever. He says we should ditch the Shah right now and it may well be time to do a deal with the Ayatollah Ruhollah Khomeini. If you enjoyed that clip, then please search for the rest is history wherever you get your podcasts.
- [64:45]
C
Certain enemy, which you know, after the British left, India left just one other enemy to focus on.
- [64:50]
B
Wow. Okay. So you know, you could be rebellion rebellious for a little while, but then get back to the kitchen because that's where we like listen. Depressing, but so not depressing talking to you, Ira. Really wonderful. Thank you so much for being with us. And where are we going next in this series, Willi?
- [65:06]
A
We are heading next back to Delhi where the siege of Delhi is reaching its peak. And we're going to see horrible, horrible things happening in Delhi. But it's one of the great stories of Indian history.
- [65:20]
B
If you don't want to wait, you know what you can do, just go to empirepoduk.com if you become a member of the club. You get all these episodes in a miniseries all together to listen to at your pleasure and at your convenience. It just remains for us to say thank you very much to Ira Mukherty. It's been a quite the ride, if not on a flying horse.
- [65:37]
A
I'm very disappointed about the flying horse.
- [65:41]
B
Me too, mate. Me too. Till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Anand.
- [65:46]
A
Goodbye from me, William Dalrymple.