← Empire: World History
Empire: World History
357. Liberator of Latin America: Revolutionary Hero Or Dictator? (Part 4)
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- [00:01]
A
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- [00:29]
B
Hello and welcome to Empire with me, Anita Anand, and me, William Dalrymple. So, episode four of our Simon Bolivar miniseries now, and in our last episode, we saw Bolivar seeing off his liberal vice president and being pronounced Presidente Liberator. You know, you were asking about what was going through his mind at the time. You know, what was he thinking, what was he wanting? Here he gives this address, William, after he's seen off all the opposition at Ocagne, at that constitutional meeting where they were ganging up against him. And when he's sort of declared President Liberator, he talks about liberty, but he's a little bit sort of fudgy about what liberty means for the people of Gran Colombia.
- [01:13]
A
But he's embracing the dark side. I'm not a believer in humour. I think he's becoming darker by the second.
- [01:21]
B
So he is certainly getting darker. Would you want to do it in your boomy voice? This is the end of his gracious acceptance.
- [01:28]
A
I'll do Boomi Bolivar.
- [01:30]
B
Go on, boom it, Colombians.
- [01:32]
A
I won't even utter the word liberty. For if I am good on my promises, you will be more than liberated. You will be obeyed. Moreover, under a dictatorship, how can we speak of liberty on this? Then let us agree. Pity the nation that obeys one man, as we pity the man who holds all power. Well, that's not a complete sort of renunciation of dictatorship, is it? No, no, I don't pity him at all. Who wields power?
- [02:00]
B
Well, he's just named himself the man who will, you know, wield all power. He holds absolute power at this. There are examples actually, which the dark side, you know, the transformation of Anakin Skywalker to Darth Vader is complete.
- [02:15]
A
Well, this is the story, I think, which is coming up now. You're gonna be talking about Admiral Jose Podencio Padilla, who is this Afro Colombian military hero who he executes. And this, you know, this is not him showing himself at his best at all. This is him showing himself in very racist colors and why this guy gets executed. Tell us about it. It's not a good story because he's
- [02:37]
B
such a magnetic character to the Bolivar ego. He is the man who could challenge him and can actually have men follow him. So just to give you an idea of Padilla, he has been Honoured in Colombian stamps because Colombia embraces his name and reputation. In 1974 you sent me a very
- [02:59]
A
nice picture of him with mutton chops, or what the British at this period called Marlboroughs.
- [03:04]
B
Let me tell you a little bit about Padilla. He's born in 1784 in the coastal town of Barranquilla in Colombia, the son of a Spanish father and African mother. So he is a mulatto mixed race man. Despite the racism of the time, and there was plenty, this man has charisma and bravery in the bucket load. And his belief in independence makes him much loved by all those around him. So he sees his naval career, which begins in the early 19th century amidst the tumult of the Spanish American wars of independence, where he serves initially in the Spanish navy, by the way, before aligning himself with the independence movement. When he comes out of that, when he embraces this Bolivar vision of independence for our people, you see him rocket through the ranks until ultimately he becomes this key figure in naval forces fighting for independence.
- [04:00]
A
We haven't had any naval battles in this pod, presumably there has been a lot of sort of action with sort of hornblower stuff, with ships firing off broadsides and all the rest of it,
- [04:11]
B
which Padilla is mainly responsible for fending off. I mean, we're sort of concentrating on Bolivar in this. He's sort of a landlubber in all his fighting. But you're right.
- [04:19]
A
And how does he fall out with Bolivar? Why does he get on the believer's wrong side? Because up to now, just because he's a hero or what does he do?
- [04:28]
B
You know, look, tall poppy syndrome is a thing, of course, but there is also the fact that he is now not in the mood to brook any kind of dissent. Santander has been dispatched, the Vice presidency has been cancelled, and Padilla disagrees with this liberator dictator thing that he's got in Bolivar, you know, the centralized control. And Padilla is much more aligned with the Santander thinking that, you know, what regional interests we should have some autonomy in these states. And they have big disagreements, big falling outs on military strategy and command. And, you know, Padilla, who's an experienced naval commander, feels quite disrespected by Bolivar and dismissed by Bolivar.
- [05:14]
A
And this is a big deal today, isn't it, when post colonial historians are writing about Bolivar. This is the thing fingers Boliva as a racist basically, who won't take this black naval commander seriously and give him the respect he deserves.
- [05:29]
B
Yeah, and Padilla demands respect and gets respect from all those who are fighting and see the results of him, you know, sort of fending off any kind of threat from the seas. And the rift between these two men turns to absolute paranoia because Bolivar believes that he is planning to overturn him.
- [05:47]
A
Classic dictator syndrome, right?
- [05:50]
B
And I have to say, you know, that sort of paranoia, which probably is misplaced at the beginning, turns into a reality because Padilla becomes this figurehead, or at least this sort of icon for those who do not like what Bolivar is doing. You know that actually we need a man like Padilla, not like him, to run things in the future. Now, whether Padilla himself was actually in a plot to get rid of Bolivar, many modern historians say actually the evidence is really weak. And they think that he was targeted due to racial prejudice and this political rivalry and all of Bolivar's paranoia at the time. But what happens is that Bolivar has him imprisoned and then has him executed. It lends itself, doesn't it, to all the things that you've been warning about.
- [06:41]
A
This man doesn't sound good at all.
- [06:44]
B
Yeah, it doesn't. It doesn't. And while he's making these decisions that are making him actually increasingly unpopular, you find this is a man whose health is failing too, because he contracts tuberculosis,
- [06:57]
A
which his mother had, didn't he? Yeah.
- [06:59]
B
Do you remember? And he watched her coughing up blood and dying this horrible, painful death. And his stamina is going. And he's sort of thin and he's shaking and he's taking opium. And for his pain and his mental health, not much better. You know, he's becoming stressed out and increasingly paranoid of assassination. And this hardens him against the very people he was hoping to unite and liberate. You know, the Liberator was now suspecting plots round every corner. They are out to get him, though. You know, there is a target on his head. Because these Santander loyalists who've seen him boot out their man, then execute another, they decide actually that it is time for him to go.
- [07:47]
A
There's an assassination plot.
- [07:50]
B
Yeah, I mean, it's sort of unthinkable. The great man himself must go. But that is what they decide.
- [07:57]
A
And this is the point, Anita, when you get another major female lead, this is the moment the Penelope Cruz character marches into our movie.
- [08:09]
B
Yes. I think it's delightful that you've already cast her step forward, the woman formerly known as Penelope Cruz, Manuela Saenz. So she is going to be very, very important in the rest of the Liberator's story.
- [08:25]
A
Now, tell us. She is already married, isn't she, she's married to a Brit.
- [08:28]
B
She is married. So I mean, this is six years. You have to sort of go back to six years before this plot is happening to get rid of of bolivar. And it's June 1822. Bolivar has entered Quito. He's secured another stunning victory in Ecuador and he's being celebrated, you know, and there's cheering in the streets and dancing and music. And he's introduced to Manuela and she is young, 25 years old. She's got these dark hair, deep brown eyes. Born in Quito, illegitimate daughter of a Spanish merchant and a woman from the upper classes. But despite this stigma, her father had ensured that she got a very, very education in one of the city's finest convents. And you're right, she was married to a Brit, James Thorne, a British merchant about 20 years older than her. It was, though purely a marriage of convenience. Cause it gave her respectability, it gave her financial security.
- [09:25]
A
But when she meets Bolivar, all that changes. The romantic final end, just as our hero is telling it to Lord Voldemort.
- [09:34]
B
Voldemort then in the making. This is 1822, so not quite Voldemort at this point, but she's in that complete enamored with the revolutionary idea even before she meets him. And she has been working as a spy. You know, I told you in the last episode that women were doing a great job of intelligence gathering for the independence movement.
- [09:51]
A
She was a spy. Fantastic. Gets better.
- [09:54]
B
It's better she's not just a spy, but she's also actively recruiting men in Lima to desert the royalist forces and join the revolution. There's a wonderful biography of Manuela For Glory and Bolivar. It's called by Pamela Murray. She describes how, you know, when Manuela first sees him, she is completely starstruck. And there is an immediate affair that begins. Another Yale historian says that, you know, that Manuela was really not shy about telling her husband what was going on. She says, you know, look, I love him. I loves him, I do. And that even though their relationship is illicit, she no longer wants Thorne anywhere around her.
- [10:33]
A
She no longer loved Thorne. Poor Thorne gets dumped. He must be devastated.
- [10:37]
B
And he loves her. And he tries to warn her about the dangers to her honour and reputation. And she writes back to him, no, no, no more, man, no more, for God's sake, say no more. Do you think for a moment that after having been the lover of General Bolivar for seven years, I would choose to be the wife of the Father, the Son or the Holy Ghost or all Three. I love him.
- [11:00]
A
So he's still got it, your hero, your Bolivar, still could weave his magic.
- [11:06]
B
Yeah, I wish you wouldn't call him my hero. He is the subject of these podcasts. You'll get quite carried away.
- [11:13]
A
I should say that this was a subject been pushing for some time.
- [11:17]
B
I think it's interesting. Why do you not. Why would you not want to know about Bolivar with all that's going on in it? My goodness. I mean, it sort of seems kind of pivotal to understand the past, to understand why Latin America and Venezuela in particular, is where it is. So back in 1822. Previously on this Conversation. Manuela, as well as becoming a lover, becomes Bolivar's personal archivist. And she's sort of like the only one who has access to all of his private papers. And she keeps him in order and makes sure he is where, much like Olive, your wife, making sure he turns up to things in time. But it also is somebody who bounces his ideas off as well, you know, sort of strategies, invasions. He trusts her with his life. And in September 1828, that faith in her pays off. It's a brilliant story.
- [12:06]
A
So again, this is very. A very movie scene. And we're in the presidential palace in Bogota. It's night, and there are one hundred and fifty conspirators massing in the courtyards below, waiting to find their opportunity to do in the dictator who's betrayed the revolution. And Manuela, of course, is with him that night and he's very sick with the fever he's getting now. You know, he's got tuberculosis. He's not the man he used to be, but she loves him still.
- [12:37]
B
There's lovely details. He's spending most of this evening with Manuela. He's completely feverish and he's in a cold bath trying to bring his temperature down. And they're just talking and she's warning him, you know what? I think there's a weird feeling. And he said, yes, yes, it's been so quiet, you know, obviously I've been made, you know, the president dictator, so it must be time for a palace coup. Ha, ha, ha. You sort of like this bitter dark laugh. And she says, well, you know, there could be, you know, 10 coups in the offing for all the attention you pay. And, you know, so she's sort of scolding him that he's saying all this, but he's not really taking it seriously.
- [13:13]
A
And then they hear dogs barking and the sound of men breaking doors down. And Bolivar grabs his pistol, is all set, presumably in his nightgown or his towel, possibly, if he's still in his bath, to confront the.
- [13:27]
B
No, he's in bed now. He's in bed now, but I can't attest to what he was wearing. He's in bed with her.
- [13:33]
A
We can just see the scene there with. He's sitting up in bed with his pistol.
- [13:37]
B
So he leaps up, he wants to grab a gun and go out and confront them. She says, get back, you bloody idiot, and grabs a sword and then unlatches the door. And they can hear from where they are, long live liberty and death to the tyrant being shouted up and down the corridors. And instead of, like, letting him charge out, Manuela says, for God's sake, don't be an idiot. Get out through the bedroom window. And so he does. He sort of climbs out of the window and runs off into the night. And the conspirators, they burst through the door and they find Manuela and they keep. You know, and they've got daggers drawn thereafter and they want to cut him to pieces. There's. They're crowding around her and she says, he's not here. I'm alone. What do you. Get out. Get out. What are you doing here? And then one of them notices that the bed is still warm and sort of holds a dagger to her throat and says, where. Where is he? Where is he? And then she says, he's in another room at the far end of the palace. Go see for yourself. He is not here. So she holds her calm and they run off trying to look for him. And when they realise that she lied, they come back and they beat her with the side of their swords. And she really has serious injuries from this. But Bolivar has escaped and he manages to meet up with his most faithful unit.
- [14:52]
A
Has he knotted his sheets together or what's the. How's he. Bedroom windows, presumably not the First Lord.
- [14:57]
B
Do you know what? This is your movie. So why don't you just imagine what happens, Willy? I think he ties a parachute, he gets her scarves and he quickly sews them together, puts them on his back, jumps and then like, you know, sort of one of those Mission Impossibles, lands gracefully in front of his. No, he's covered in mud and mire because he has to get to his most faithful unit.
- [15:18]
A
His faithful eunuch or his faithful unit.
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B
Unit. Unit. You know, his military army unit. There's no eunuch in this story. It's not the Mughal Empire. Different time, different place.
- [15:28]
A
Good palaces need a eunuch or two.
- [15:31]
B
Not in this story. Although in Your movie version, you look it up, my friend. You can do what you like. The army is still with him. And they go back and they try and round up conspiracies. A lot of them escape into the night. But it is after this incident that he looks deep into Manuela's eyes and gives her the title that she will be known as for the rest of her life. Do you want to say what it is?
- [15:55]
A
Libertadora del Libertador.
- [15:58]
B
That's it. Which translates as the Liberator of the Liberator. There is another sort of really amazing aspect to this story. Cause people in South America know the story about Manuela saving his life, but not all of them know that she actually hid some of the conspirators afterwards and lied to protect them because she thought they were misled, you know, and she didn't believe in this sort of wholesale execution and killing.
- [16:19]
A
She sounds quite a woman.
- [16:21]
B
I love her. Anyway, she was asked, you know, why she saved them later on, and she said, I want Bolivar to be loved by all the people of Bogota. I don't want him to be feared as a tyrant. And she always believed that mercy was an important quality in a leader.
- [16:40]
A
Oh, she's key character.
- [16:43]
B
Despite all of this, Bolivar still remains Bolivar. Okay, he's not good enough for us. I don't think so either, actually. He escapes with his life, but he's never the same after this because it's. It's illness, it's fear, it's having come so close to death. It's the weight of all these ideals.
- [17:03]
A
And he's not an old man at this point. He's ill, but he's only, what, in his late 40s?
- [17:07]
B
Yeah, he's not old. Yeah, you're right. It's the 1830s. But it really feels like he's had enough by this. And he makes this final, bitter decision that he's going to step away from power and he's going to go into exile. But even that Willi, he basically knows he's dying. He hasn't got much time left. And it is only a matter of months later that the end of the Liberator occurs. And the date is December 17, 1830. And you can tell us a little more about his death.
- [17:41]
A
So on the 17th of December, 1830, in the coastal town of Santa Marta, Colombia, a favorite of our producer Anushka, Simon Bolivar dies. He's only 47 years old. He's politically disgraced, impoverished, far from his homeland. And he's given an incredibly modest burial, but within a decade. Within about 12 years, the whole world has turned around, and he's realized posthumously as the founding hero of not one, but several South American nations, which, of course, he is. And people soon forget his many flaws. And his remains are exhumed and transferred to Caracas, Venezuela, where they're interred in the National Pantheon, which is like a sort of Les Invalides for. For Venezuela, a site reserved for the country's most revered figures. And Bolivar, controversial today. Let's discuss in a second how we should look at this man and the cross currents in historiography, really, the different attitudes people take to him today. But he is nonetheless, you know, a basic object of national veneration. He's on the banknotes. Also importantly, the subject of one of the great Gabriel Garcia Marquez novels. The General in His Labyrinth is a fictionalized version of Bolivar.
- [19:07]
B
Manuela, Yes. I mean, sweetly, Marquez has Manuela reading to a dying Bolivar, you know, like this, you know, the final act of somebody who loves him and is faithful to him in a world that has turned completely against him. But shall I tell you the truth? Manuela wasn't with him when he died. She was forced to say in Bogota, they're kept apart, kept apart, and they're watching her every move. And when she received the news of his death, she completely has a breakdown. Her political, social life, everything was intertwined with Bolivar's. You know, his death effectively kind of ended her life, as it were. She'd lost her love, she'd lost her reason to carry on. And in the years after Bolivar's death, Manuela gets expelled from both Colombia and Ecuador. The new government of Colombia see her as an enemy. She's too closely associated with the Bolivar stink. Ecuador. The leader there, Juan Jose Flores, bans her from the country and makes really explicitly misogynistic references to her masculine character and her vices. And so she's completely, you know, driven out of every place that she has known and fought for. She settles down in Peru, in Paita, a small coastal town in Peru, and tries to rebuild her life running this small retail business. She. She's importing embroidered cloth. She becomes this godmother to local children, but could have ended there. But you cannot keep a feisty woman down because she never stops working for the cause. So, you know, remember Flores, who's just being appalling about her when he's in power in Ecuador, she foils plots to spread insurgent propaganda against him. So she's still loyal to the cause and that, you know, these projects post Spain must succeed. Money is a Constant problem for her. She has this, you know, hacienda outside Quito, but she can't trust the caretaker to send her any income. She said, the landed elite without any money. And at one point, you look in her records and she's forced to call in an informe de probase, a declaration of poverty, which means that, you know, she's impoverished and the state has to do something for her or she's going to die. And then she, you know, her health is going down the toilet. She's been badly beaten trying to save Bolivar. Says she knew this hip injury recurs. She spends her final years in a wheelchair, unable to walk. And in 1586, Manuela falls desperately ill with diphtheria and she dies at the age of 59. Her death is bad and sad and her burial is also sad because she had diphtheria. There are all these fears of contagion. So she's just thrown into a common grave and her possessions are burned and she drifts into obscurity.
- [21:54]
A
So she dies in obscurity and poverty. Many of her possessions were burnt. She drifts off into obscurity. But she's remembered by my favorite poet, Pablo Neruda, who writes an elegy for her titled the Unburied Woman of Paita, which sums up her story. Oh, the traveler will not find Paita, sleeping lady. There is no tongue for a noblesse. There's no barrier for the flower. There is no sepulcher for the sacred beauty. Her name is not preserved in wood or under brutal temple storm. She went away. Her essence spread out among the hard core of the desert and she was lost among sand and boulders. But Anita, you tell me that in the 21st century or the late 20th century, she is rehabilitated.
- [22:44]
B
Well, she is. And it is the Venezuelan government of Hugo or Hugo Chavez that does this because they exhume what they believe, Manuela's remains from Paita and they take them to Caracas and then rebury them inter her next to Bolivar's grand tomb in the National Pantheon with great pomp and ceremony. And also sort of Chavez claiming, you know, to be the new Bolivar, if you like. You know, Chavez's new Bolivarian project is very much identified with him. So of course, all honours to both Bolivar and everybody associated with him. By the way, feminists are across Latin America come and respect her remains. You know, they regard her as a founding Mother, a freedom fighter in her own right.
- [23:28]
A
As well they should.
- [23:30]
B
Yeah, I know. She was pretty. Pretty damn cool. Let's take a break now. And after the break, let's talk about Bolivar's legacy.
- [23:42]
A
This episode is brought to you by Attio, the aicrm. The larger an empire becomes, the harder it is to know what's happening across it. Modern organizations face the same sort of problem, and Attio helps solve it. ATTIO is an AICRM designed for how teams really operate. Sync your email and calendar and you're up and running in minutes. From there, Attio brings your conversations and contacts together in one place so your team can see what is happening in real time. AskAttio goes a step further. Simply ask questions about your pipeline, which deals are moving fastest, where the momentum is building, or what needs attention next, and get a clear answer in moments. With Attio, you can focus on the real work of building your empire from day one onwards. Try Attio for free@attio.com Empire. Welcome back. So Anita and I are now going to debate Boliva because there's not a huge distance between us, but I think we do have slightly different positions. You have a much more romanticized view of this young man.
- [25:03]
B
No, I don't. Very realistic, realistic assessment.
- [25:07]
A
Would you ever go for a handsome Latin Fabio from the revolution?
- [25:12]
B
No, it isn't that. It's. He's a paradox. I mean, I. All the way along, this man is a, A complete paradox. So, you know, I'll state my case before you romanticize it beyond any recognition. He is a young, idealistic man who sees that actually the kind of corrupt involvement of Spain in his, his country and then his entire continent is not good. It is a one way stream of wealth. Yes, he is like every young man, he has horizons which are quite narrow. You know, he hasn't had very much life experience. And so it is very much all couched in all of our wealth. Creoles like himself is going one way, but then, you know, to have this vision of actually uniting an entire number of countries in South America and having power and having, you know, some, some heft. We've heard that before. But you know this. He is also corrupted along the way. He is small minded, he is paranoid, he's ruthless. And is he a racist? That's. That's the question. Is he a racist?
- [26:16]
A
Okay, so let me make the counter case. So I would argue that he is full of windy sort of manifestos and he's, you know, on record declaring that the blood of our citizens is varied, let it be mixed for the sake of unity. But when you actually look at what happened, he keeps the structures of Spanish colonialism completely intact. And your wonderful Mari Arana and also John lynch, another historian who studied this very much, make the case that this is a revolution for the creole elite. It's getting rid of the Spanish, but only to replace them by his own people born into one of the wealthiest families. And there's a lot of talk about liberating slaves, but it isn't completely done. I mean, something he could easily have done. And he doesn't actually complete this case,
- [27:03]
B
but he does, he does emancipate any enslaved people who join the cause. And he does do that from, from 1816 onwards. He does do that. But you're right, he doesn't dismantle the
- [27:16]
A
situation and he has this dodgy record of executing, executing mulattoes. We, we talked about Padilla earlier, but there's another example which we haven't discussed yet, which is General Manuel Piar, 1817. This other brilliant general, mixed race. His mother was Afro, Venezuelan and Dutch, who'd won crucial victories that essentially saved Bolivar's campaign. But because he represented something dangerous, the creole elite advocated genuine social transformation for power sharing with mestidos and dismantling the racial hierarchies inherited from Spain. Bolivar has him executed. It's not a good, it's not a good look at all.
- [28:01]
B
It isn't. But he is quite a cast iron shit to a lot of people. I mean, remember, he hands Miranda over, who is his number two, and his brother in arms.
- [28:10]
A
He promises himself passage and then hands him over.
- [28:13]
B
And then hands him over. He also, you know, betrays Santander, his actual, you know, brothers in the revolution. He also, you know, throws him out and alienates him. They were meant to have this shared vision.
- [28:25]
A
I think you're coming over to my position, though.
- [28:27]
B
No, it's not a question of coming over to your position. I think you're completely in my position, which is, it is a complicated story that you can start off from a position of idealism. And you think he started off completely venal from the start? I'm not sure about that.
- [28:41]
A
I'm saying he's completely venal. But I do think there's, I think there's a lot of wind and air and windy speeches. In the end, he just looks after his own. And an example of that is his attitude, particularly his attitude to the indigenous and the mixed races. We started the last episode with those wonderful letters from Jamaica and Haiti and the only free black republican Americans gives him crucial help which gets his whole career going again. But he's terrified by it and One of his mixed race officers tries to rally black and indigent support and Bolivar complains that what they wanted was absolute equality. Next they will want a padrocrasia or counterfactual.
- [29:26]
B
Okay, so I think John lynch might be the one, and forgive me, John lynch, if this wasn't you, but it is one historian I respect who says, actually, you know what, there are quieter ways to live a life. So if his wife hadn't have died in his, you know, youth, the woman that he loved completely until he meets Manuela, if he had been happily ever after, supplying Spain, making money, lots of money, not thinking anything broader about colonialism or about the rights and wrongs of having a master race in your own, he wouldn't have done anything. He was really wealthy, he was well off. But he chooses not to stay in that cushion, but to do something else. Now, does he have a blind spot with people of color? Inexplicably, he absolutely does. Even though he's had this Haitian awakening. Because if you are trying to do something on such a grand scale, you know, with the size and land mass and number of people, you know that you are going to need those who hold power in those regions not to stab you in the back and break away. And that is his utter paranoia. That's his paranoia with Federation and possibly to give him a little bit of slack. And unless you're saying he's an out and out racist and is therefore deplorable, which is funny, we're all arguing on these sides, but if he is thinking that, then can he afford to alienate them in that way? When you are building a new nation, Gran Colombia? I don't know, it's just, it's just a thought is what I'm saying. I don't think it's as simple.
- [30:55]
A
I think the thing we also got to focus in is his complete lack of interest in the indigenous culture and.
- [31:01]
B
Yeah, well, that's true. I'm not arguing with you about that. That's true.
- [31:04]
A
And he writes things like, the Indian is of so tranquil a character that all he desires is repose and solitude. He abolishes something we didn't discuss. He abolishes something called the Indian tribute, which sounds progressive, but paradoxically it worked against the indigenous because tribute had at least conferred some claim to communal land.
- [31:21]
B
Well, it's like the American Revolution in that respect, isn't it, really, for indigenous people? You know, you have sort of, you know, the indigenous people fighting for the British because they think they'll be better off rather than having Washington and others shrinking their lands and taking their lands and giving them fewer rights.
- [31:38]
A
You're absolutely right. And there's similarities, but there's also differences in that sense. So just as Washington and the American Founding Fathers created a republic based on liberty while maintaining slavery and dispossessing on a massive grand scale, Native Americans, we saw that Washington was one of the worst culprits in that. Bolivar, in contrast, creates new nations based on Enlightenment ideals, but preserves the colonial hierarchies. And both revolutions really, I would argue, were for the propertied elites.
- [32:11]
B
But I've not and have never argued anything other than that. Your contention was that from the start he was rapacious and only for, you know, his kind.
- [32:20]
A
My contention was that you giving him a very easy pass to begin with. But.
- [32:25]
B
Well, I don't know. I don't know. I still think that, you know, there is something extraordinary. And you know, we have to remember that all major events, whether they are horrific or decent, are started by people who think, who certainly in their heads think that they can do something better for their people.
- [32:43]
A
To argue your case, what you're changing.
- [32:46]
B
Are you coming here now?
- [32:47]
A
Okay, just one thing. It is true, okay, if we're actually comparing Washington and Bolivar, the US enshrined slavery in its constitution, it's there in the constitution. While Boliva at least makes an effort towards moving towards the sort of gradual abolition, even though he doesn't get very far. So it's slightly better.
- [33:08]
B
Okay, well, I think we're sort of meeting in the fudgy middle.
- [33:10]
A
We're meeting in a fudgy way in the middle.
- [33:12]
B
In the fudgy middle. So I mean, and also I think you can get a real look into what a man can do as well, because, you know, a man is not a miracle worker. He has to work with what he's got. And what he's got is a patchwork of countries that have done things certain way in South America and are pretty unwilling to change them. He writes to General Flores, remember him, President of Ecuador, who his paramour Manuela ends up saving, even though he is horrifically awful about her. He writes a letter, Bolivar to Flores, just a month before he dies. And he summarizes his 20 years of leadership with six points of disillusionment. Okay, so this is what he's saying. I almost on his deathbed. America is ungovernable. He who serves a revolution plows the sea. All one can do in America is leave it. The country is bound to fall into unimaginable chaos, after which it shall pass into the hands of an undistinguishable string of tyrants of every color. And he's talking, when he says America, he's talking about South America. Once we are devoured by all manner of crime and reduced to a frenzy of violence, no one, not even the Europeans, will want to subjugate us. And finally, if mankind could revert to its primitive state, it would be here in South America in her final hour. So it's like a really devastating assessment of what one man can do, and it's actually quite prophetic. I mean, it's not wrong, is he? Because the countries that Bolivar liberated, many of them did fall into chaos, you know, ruled by some string of tyrants and military strongmen and populous demagogues and corrupt oligarchs and, you know, with. With people suffering beneath them. I did a little thing of sums here. So there have been 60 military dictatorships in various Latin American countries during the 20th century alone.
- [35:07]
A
Can you say that Bolivar is the kind of prototype of all these South American strongmen?
- [35:14]
B
I think you can a bit, actually, you know, because there is this very Latin American concept of caudismo, which is like a string of militaristic strong men who govern these parts of Latin America since independence, you know, that they will not be questioned, they will not be argued with. And, you know, democracy is a bit of a hindrance to that. Marquez says as much in his novel, you know, and look at all of the people who followed, right? They emulate that idea of, you need to be a strong man, president, liberator, not just liberator, you know, and like I said, 60 military dictatorships in Latin America during the 20th century, that number tells you as much as you need to know.
- [36:02]
A
And Chavez is absolutely in this mold, isn't he? He himself is a military officer highly centered around that personal macho brand, and he renames Venezuela the Bolivarian Republic. He, you know, he's absolutely consciously invoking the name of Bolivar to do what he. Do what he wants to do.
- [36:23]
B
Absolutely right. You know, and. And the fact that, you know, he, he, he wants the. The tomb to be cleaned and Manuela to be put by his side. And, you know, he talks about Bolivar a lot, you know, during his, his autocracy in Venezuela, all of that lends itself. It's a strange. And it's a checkered legacy, I think.
- [36:47]
A
Have you been following Anita closely, What's going on in Venezuela now? How far can we, can we blame or not Bolivar for the mess at the moment.
- [36:57]
B
Well, I mean, you could say that actually a lack of accountability and democracy is, is the death knell eventually of any civilization. And I, I certainly think so. Maduro also, you know, more recently, Maduro, he of the, he's gone missing. Oh, America's got him fame. He claimed to follow Bolivarian principles. You know, he says, actually, that's, that's, that's what we are. We are Bolivar, sons of Bolivar. And hyperinflation under Chavez rendered the currency worthless. You know, you saw a contraction of gdp, you saw malnutrition, hospitals, you know, struggling.
- [37:32]
A
Seven million Venezuelans fleeing.
- [37:34]
B
Yeah, I was just going to say fleeing the country since 2014, a quarter of the population, William, despite this absolutely
- [37:41]
A
massive oil reserves, one of the very, very largest oil reserves in the world.
- [37:45]
B
What he wrote, actually, what's interesting is Bolivar said, you know, we will be such a disaster zone that no European is going to want us. What he didn't reckon on was the oil reserves and the fact that America wants those very, very much. You know, here we are right now.
- [38:02]
A
You know, we've sort of got a new imperialism. Yeah.
- [38:05]
B
Of a new imperialism because actually what happened was not great. So if you don't have a strong country with a strong sense of itself and you have these, you know, dictators who are in charge, it is easier for somebody like Trump to say, look at me, I am the liberator. Also, you've got oil I'm quite interested in, but I'm liberating you. But also you've got the oil that you're not using and I'm the liberate. You know, all of that and the
- [38:30]
A
kind of naked way in which the US has just said it's going to take over the oil reserves in Venezuela and use it. I mean, that's the return of the Spanish and everything that Bolivar fought against is back again. So it's a sad end ending to this story, but anyway, history goes on.
- [38:50]
B
Very, very, very sad. I mean, you've got, you know, not even sort of hiding it. You know, you've got sort of US Secretary of Energy Chris Wright in, in Venezuela talking about how they're going to extract all this oil and use it
- [39:04]
A
an extraordinary naked, naked way. Turning our podcast, which we always thought of as a history podcast, into sort of current affairs podcast now. Canonism empires are back.
- [39:16]
B
Well, it is. It's an ongoing story, as we said to lovely Daniel Immewar, who talked about America's hidden empire ain't so hidden anymore. Maybe you need to retitle, add a few chapters. It's a little out of date. Till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Arnan, and goodbye
- [39:34]
A
from me, William Dalrymple.