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- [00:01]
Empire Podcast Host (Ad Presenter)
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- [00:20]
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- [00:50]
Empire Podcast Host (Ad Presenter)
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- [02:07]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Mount Rushmore has a much darker history than you might imagine, and today I'm joined by Matthew Davis, author of a biography of a mountain, the Making and Meaning of Mount Rushmore. And we're going to be exploring something of a sinister past for this iconic American landmark. Now, just a few weeks ago, the President of the United States posted a picture of a mountain. It was Mount Rushmore, and it featured colossal stone faces in the Black Hills of South Dakota. George Washington, Thomas Jefferson, Abraham Lincoln, Teddy Roosevelt. But Donald Trump had sort of changed it, and through the magic of AI, behold, he'd added his own face. Now, Mount Rushmore is one of the most famous landmarks that America can boast, but its history is just as astounding as those huge rock faces themselves. It features Native American wars, gold prospectors, and the kkk. Welcome to our guest Willie's on his travels. Matthew so you've got me today, but I'm delighted to have you because I was absolutely engrossed by your book. And you're in London now, aren't you? You were in America, but you're in London.
- [03:20]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
I am, yeah. We moved here about five months ago and it's just. It's great to be here. Thanks so much for having me.
- [03:25]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
No, it's a delight because, you know, this anniversary everybody is talking about America and we were trying to think of a way of doing vast swathes of history, but through one object. And suddenly the object became a mountain. You know, these four 60 foot heads of dead presidents blasted out on the side of a sacred mo. I mean, to some it's a shrine to democracy, but to some, is it fair to say, Matt, it's a colossal act of imperial vandalism carved into stolen land?
- [03:58]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Yeah, I think that is accurate. I do think that there are some people that would clearly see the memorial in that way. And that's why, as you said, I mean, Rushmore for me has become so fascinating. I do think it stands in for so many of the sort of discussions we have about American myth, history, empire, and for that it just makes such an interesting subject.
- [04:17]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Yeah, I mean, we're going to be talking to Ken Burns about this as well. Do Americans think of themselves as an imperial power? Do they recognize that empire is part of the American story?
- [04:29]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
That's a great question. I mean, I think obviously it would depend on who you ask. And I do think that because the US is fundamentally an immigrant country, that that changes the equation a little bit. I think people sort of see ourselves as having chosen to come here instead of sort of being sort of an imperialistic power that sort of goes across the world and creates different empires. But certainly that's been an important element to the United States, especially on our own continent.
- [04:58]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Now you've been to Mount Rushmore in Rain and Shine. It is in South Dakota, deep in the American interior, hundreds of miles from a coastline. Just. Can you describe what it feels like to be there, what it's like?
- [05:12]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Sure. I mean, the first thing you actually notice is just how small the faces are compared to the grandeur and the beauty of the Black Hills. I mean, usually when you see a photograph of Mount Rushmore, you're seeing a close up photo of the sculpture. So the faces seem immense and they are. I mean, they're 60 foot sculptures, but they're kind of, when you get up in the Black Hills, they seem smaller because they're kind of overwhelmed by the beauty of the Black Hills. This billion year old granite, these towering ponderosa pine trees, these rolling hills and so the sculpture actually feels smaller, you're looking at it than when you envision it in your head. And when you see it, like on a book cover or on a photograph,
- [05:49]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
I mean, there was a mountain before there was a Rushmore, wasn't there? And it was important. Can you talk us through the Six Grandfathers? Because that was very, very important to the Lakota Indians.
- [06:01]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Yeah, I mean, the Black Hills, the origin story for the Lakota, begin in the Black Hills at a cave called Wind Cave, which is just a short drive away from Mount Rushmore. And that gives you an idea of the kind of centrality of the Black Hills to Lakota cosmology. I. The Lakota literally called the Black Hills the heart of everything that is. And that's because the Hills provided the Lakota and many other tribes with food, shelter, medicine, clothing. You know, it still is a site of vision quests and spiritual ceremony. And so the Hills weren't just a singular sacred site like Westerners might think of a cathedral, but they were alive with spirituality and still are, I think. You know, as you drive through the hills or walk through the hills, you really get that sense. You feel that spirituality in the hills. And, you know, the mountain we're talking about, Mount Rushmore, is in the oldest part of the Black Hills, and the Lakota called it the Six Grandfathers, and it was named after the six sacred directions of Lakota cosmology. North, south, east, west, the sky above, and the earth below.
- [07:04]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
So it's not, I suppose, as we here in the west think of it as a church or cathedral. It's more than that. You're saying it is.
- [07:12]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
It definitely is. I mean, I think there's sort of a living, breathing, spiritual essence of the hills that most Lakota strongly believe in. And like I said, it's very closely tied to the Lakota immersion story, which has them leaving the bowels of the earth onto the earth through this cave that is now a national park in its own right called Wind Cave national park, and that really is quite close to Mount Rushmore itself. So you already, from the foundation of Rushmore, have this real geographical tension between these sites that are important for the Lakota and. And these sites that become important for
- [07:49]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
the United States with that importance in mind. In 1868, the United States had just come out of the Civil War. It was trying to, you know, we've covered this on our podcast before, push west, always west. And this newly born trying to heal itself country is running into serious, genuinely humiliating military resistance from the Lakota. There is Then a treaty that is signed in 1868. And it. It has some really important provisos which then makes what happens next kind of baffling that, you know, no one could. Could even pass through this land without consent. Certainly there is no provision here that you can take masses of dynamite and blow the face off these. These sacred mountains.
- [08:35]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Yeah, that's exactly right. I mean, that. That treaty you're talking about is the 1868 Treaty of Fort Laramie. And it is. It is crucial to this story. And, you know, basically, as you said, the treaty gives a large amount of land to the Lakota, the Great Sioux Reservation, which encompasses almost all of western South Dakota today. And within that land, clearly is the Black Hills of South Dakota. And the hills, as I mentioned earlier, were the central spiritual and physical home of the Lakota. And, you know, what happens is that treaty signed, and things are kind of status quo, but for a short period of time, just for about six years. And Ulysses S. Grant, who's the President of the United States at the time, actually does a pretty commendable job of keeping Americans out of this area. I mean, people want to go in, they want to explore, but he is pretty adamant that they not go in and adhere to the treaty. But, you know, what happens is in 1874, there is an expedition that goes through the Black Hills, and there is some dispute as to whether this military expedition is a violation of the treaty because the treaty does allow stipulations for U.S. government officials into the Great Sioux reservation. And so this expedition goes through the hills with the anticipation, they might try to find a military fort.
- [09:48]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
It's not, though, is it, because there's gold in them there hills. That's what's driving it. It's not anything to do with military security, whatever they might call it. It is part of this gold fever.
- [09:58]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
That's exactly right. Yeah, it's part of the gold fever. The US Is like much of the world, in a depression from the 1873 panic. So there's a real practical desire to find gold in these hills. And so the expedition is led by the Civil War hero, George Armstrong Custer, who, of course, is this very flamboyant military leader who is extremely ambitious, extremely attention seeking, and he goes through the hills with his seventh calvary and interestingly, his seventh Calvary band. And so really, there has been occasionally a white person that has gone through the Black Hills, but this is the first official expedition of Americans through the hills. And Custer's band is playing this seventh Calvary theme song. Gary Owen This Irish drinking song as they march through billion year old granite.
- [10:49]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Okay, hang on. Do you know the song?
- [10:52]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Do I know the song?
- [10:53]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Yeah. Do you? I mean, you can sing it if you like, but I mean, what kind of words is it? Is it sort of something that people would find offensive to hear or is it just one of those rumty tum, let's keep going kind of songs?
- [11:06]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
It's more of the latter. Yeah, it's more of the latter. And it's interesting because Custer himself is not really at this point, a huge drinker anymore. But this is his seventh Calvary theme song. They play it all the time. They play it when they left Bismarck, North Dakota on this expedition. They play it a couple years later. We're entering to the Battle of Little Bighorn. This is their theme song. And so they're playing this through the Black Hills, they're playing other music through the Black Hills. And it's just like, it's such, to me, such a striking image of these literally loud Americans traipsing through the Black Hills. And, and as you mentioned, I mean, Custer, he wants to find gold. He knows that if he's the one that finds gold, his star is going to rise. And they've been on the road for a little while and they come to what is now Custer, South Dakota, along the French Creek that goes through the Black Hills. And it's there that his expedition finds traces of gold. It's not even a ton of gold, it's traces of gold. And he sends a messenger to hurry by horse to Fort Laramie to announce the news, which effectively, just six years on from the signing of the Fort Laramie treaty, will cause the disintegration of that treaty. Because once word gets out about gold in them hills, the gold rush is massive. And you have thousands of miners who descend on the hills and really create these illegal settlements which are today the backbone of western South Dakota. I mean, towns like Rapid City, Keystone, Custer, perhaps most famously Dark Deadwood, these are all created by this gold rush. And the US Government cannot stop it. And they sort of give the Lakota now an ultimatum. They say you need to be on government run reservations by the beginning of 1876, or you will, quote, unquote, be hunted down. And so the stage is set for this famous Battle of Little Bighorn that takes place in June 1876.
- [12:59]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
For people who are sort of leaning in and to their listening and saying, oh, Custer, hang on, I know him from his last stand. I mean, that's what we're talking about. 1876 may be a miserable year for the Native tribes because they're being corralled into these reservations when they had free range of land that they thought they'd signed a treaty for. But it is also the end of Custer himself. I mean, just sum up what happens to him at Bighorn, Little Bighorn.
- [13:25]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
It's a remarkable military battle because Custer is trying to triangulate with a couple of other generals to sort of surround this really large congregation of Native Americans, mostly Lakota, some Northern Cheyenne as well. And Custard sort of takes it among himself to try to surprise the Lakota and attack without any reinforcements. And his 7th Cavalry gets almost completely wiped out. I mean, Custer himself is killed. It is an amazingly decisive battle that the Lakota win, but it's a real Pyrrhic victory because, I mean, if we're here now in 2026, you know, we're inching up on the 150th anniversary of that battle. And what's interesting, obviously the connection, is that the United States is celebrating the centennial of the Declaration of Independence right around the time word gets to Philadelphia, where they're celebrating that Custer has died, the Civil War hero has died, that the seventh Calvary has been wiped out, and people are irate. They paint Custer as this sort of. This martyr, an image that has really changed over the years. But at the time, he was sort of seen as this sort of Christian martyr who died at the hands of these brutal Native savages, if you will. And I think what ends up happening at that point is that the United States sort of no longer has any interest in treaties, has no interest at all in diplomacy, and they begin the process of seizing the Black Hills, which has ramifications, obviously, for us today in terms of Mount Rushmore.
- [14:55]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Right, Okay. I mean, so losing land, losing out, but also losing the very name of the place. Let me tell you why Mount Rushmore is called Mount Rushmore. So in 1885, the Lakota's Six Grandfathers Mountain was renamed on maps. A New York lawyer, Charles Rushmore, was visiting on a trip in 1885, and he was representing a tin mining company at the time and was with a guide who I guess was a bit bored by him. And he asked, what are these mountains called? And the guide, who wasn't serious, I'm guessing, said, well, you know, you're paying. They're called Mount Rushmore. And that is the name that stuck to the maps.
- [15:38]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Yeah, it's pretty remarkable. I mean, I think what I have called this is the cheapest naming rights in American history because this name stuck. And Rushmore, years later, when they're beginning the project on Mount Rushmore, he gets a call to contribute money for this fund to develop Mount Rushmore, and he pays $5,000. So for $5,000, he got to have this gigantic memorial, important memorial, named after him. And he just was a young, random New York City lawyer who happened to be representing tin mine corporations in the Black Hills at that time.
- [16:09]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
We should round off the story of the Lakota, because 1890 is a pivotal year, Matthew, isn't it? Because this is the year of the Battle of Wounded Knee. I mean, can you sum it up very briefly?
- [16:23]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Sure, yeah. I mean, Wounded Knee, the massacre of Wounded Knee was a direct result of the American fear of what was called the Ghost Dance, which was this spiritual movement that had originated in present day Nevada and made its way to the Great Plains. And so we're talking about December 1890 here. And so about 15 years after little Bighorn. And the American military is really jumpy about the powerful impact that the Ghost Dance is having on the Lakota. And so they're congregating a lot of soldiers, including Custer's old Regiment, the 7th Cavalry. They're congregating them and posting them around areas like Pine Ridge Reservation, which is about 100 miles southeast from Mount Rushmore. And it's late December. It's brutally cold. There's a group of Lakota led by a man named Spotted Elk who are trying to make their way to safety, to Pine Ridge under the protection of Red Cloud. But the group, which is mostly composed of hundreds of Native Americans, most of whom are white, women, children, unarmed men, they find themselves surrounded by the seventh Calvary. And early in the morning on December 29, as the American military are trying to disarm the few Lakota who possess weapons, a gun accidentally goes off and the massacre commences. As many as possibly 350 Lakota were slaughtered that day. The US army, in the wake of this, presented 20 soldiers with medals of honor. And these were medals that stayed until the Biden administration when they were revoked, but then they were just recently re rewarded under the Trump administration. And so what's vital about Wounded Knee is not only it's this other link in a chain of trauma that Lakota have experienced, but it's often thought of as the last military engagement of the American Indian Wars. If you can even call it a military engagement. It was more of a slaughter. But really what it does is it transforms the change and the mark from the end of A military conflict and more towards a cultural, historical conflict where the Lakota and many other tribes were forced to assimilate to an American way of life.
- [18:30]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
So you've got the Lakota, who have suffered the desecration of their land, if you like, confined to reservations, A mountain that's been named pretty much as a cheap practical joke, as you say, the cheapest rebranding in history. At what point does somebody come up with the idea that we can do more with these craggy faces than just own them?
- [18:52]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Yeah, this is actually my favorite part of the story, and it introduces one of my favorite characters of the story, and that's a guy named Doane Robinson, who in 1923 is South Dakota's first state historian. He's in his late 60s, and from photographs you see of him, he looks kind of like a wise oracle. He's got a bald, polished head, he's clean shape, and he's got some sparkling eyes. And, you know, Robinson was originally a journalist and a lawyer and an amateur poet, but as the state historian, he had become really interested in a bunch of different issues pertaining to South Dakota. He's sort of a Renaissance man, interested in the kind of alfalfa that farmers grow or the construction of the bridges over the Missouri river, the design of the state flag. And in the early 1920s, he is deeply interested and concerned about the South Dakota economy. The economy has tanked because while commodity prices were very high during World War I, while European fields were in disarray and the economy was in disarray, now that Europe has recovered, the commodities prices in the United States in particular, the agrarian states like South Dakota have tanked. And so South Dakota is seeing the Great Depression about a decade before the rest of the United States. And so Robinson wants to find a way to help. And he sees the development of the automobile and the rise of tourist attractions in other states that are making money from tourism. You have to think about the context of the time. The model T car has been on the road since 1908, and more middle class families in the roaring twenties are beginning to drive across their own country for the first time. And South Dakota is beautiful. I mean, it has the Badlands, the Black Hills, nice summer weather, but there's nothing really iconic that's going to make people stop. And so that is what Doane Robinson wants to do. He believes that what South Dakota needs is a tourist attraction.
- [20:44]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Okay? So, I mean, so he's looking for something to catch the eye and stop the wheels that are coming. Is it true Mount Rushmore was originally meant to portray Native Americans.
- [20:55]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Yes, that was the initial idea. I mean, Robinson wanted to create these colossal sculptures carved into this one part of the Black Hills called the Needles, which are really sort of slender granite spires in the Black Hills. And he wanted these figures to be characters from the history of the American West. So Lewis and Clark, Sacagawea, Buffalo Bill. But the most prominent person he wanted featured and carved was Red Cloud, the Lakota chief who had beaten the United States in war. And that was his first instinct, his first idea was to carve Red Cloud into these Needles to be sort of a hero of the frontier.
- [21:29]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Would that have been controversial at the time? Because it's not the greatest memory for Americans? I suppose.
- [21:36]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
I don't think it would have been controversial, honestly. I think there are examples of other sculptures that were going up at the time that featured Native Americans that were not sculptures. And I think the United States has always had a very complicated relationship with its indigenous communities. On the one hand, obviously, there was a genocide that took place, that millions of lives were lost and people were displaced, but yet there's also this sort of deep respect that the United States and deep honor the United States has for Native Americans in those communities.
- [22:02]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Even then. Even then, you know, sort of it's historically not that far away from the time of the massacres. But you're saying even then people had respect?
- [22:11]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Well, I think to a degree, I think you're right. I think we have it more today than possibly 100 years ago. But I don't think that it would have been too controversial for Red Cloud to have been carved into the Needles.
- [22:22]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Right. So. But what happens is he sort of is looking for a sculptor who can match his ambition, who can make this sort tourist destination that people are going to leave the beaten path for and come and find and spend their money. He doesn't get his first choice, he gets his second choice. And that is a man called Gutsam Borglum. I mean, it's a fabulous name. It is a Bond villain's name, if you don't mind me saying. Gutzon Borglum. And I'll just describe him for people. You know, a physically sort of barrel chested, commanding kind of presence. You know, he's broad shouldered, he's got this very large square head. I mean, you might say looks like it's been sculpted out of rock itself. Heavy eyebrows and these very fierce eyes that I've heard contemporaries of his say that they were kind of magnetic and unsettling in equal measure. He's a Theatrical kind of fella, isn't he? Gutson Borglum.
- [23:16]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
He is incredibly theatrical. I mean, he is someone just out of central casting, and his life story is sort of out of central casting in many ways. I mean, he has this sort of combination of rugged American west and salon Paris chic that he tries to combine in his clothes, in his demeanor. A refined artist and a strong sort of Western man, which makes for a very interesting combination.
- [23:40]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Yeah, so he's sort of cravat and riding boots. It's that kind of vibe that you're getting from Guts and Borglum.
- [23:46]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Exactly, exactly.
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Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Okay, So, I mean, how is it that these two get connected? And he's an. He's an Idaho boy, isn't he? Gutzon Borglum. He's born in 1867, but the name doesn't sound very American. It sounds Danish. Because it is, isn't it? I mean, he's off Danish Mormon stock.
- [24:07]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
He is, yeah. So he was. He was born in what is now Idaho in 1867 to. To parents that were. That were immigrants from Denmark. And they were. They were Mormons. Yeah. His father was a Danish Mormon, and he married at the same time. Two sisters, and the family began to move east. They eventually went to St. Louis, where Gunson's father went to medical school. And as they moved east, Gunsen's father renounces polygamy and Mormonism. And there's a choice that needs to be made. And Borglum's biological mother, who is the younger of the two sisters, is cast aside and sent away. And at that time, Borglum's only about five years old. And so you can imagine the trauma of losing your mother at that age, not because of death or disease, but because of family circumstance. And she was just sent away, and he never saw her again. And so he's raised by his aunt, whom he's encouraged for the rest of his life to call his mother. And he's taught from childhood that the truth of his origins is actually something to hide, which makes for a remarkable story and also kind of an interesting equivalent to the origins of Mount Rushmore, which also are not very well known right now.
- [25:19]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
He then ends up in Paris in the 1890s because he turns out he's a very good sculptor who moves in very rarefied circles because he becomes quite friendly with Rodin, the French sculptor who gave us the Kiss and the Thinker. I mean, that's how people know Rodin. How did that happen?
- [25:38]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Rodin had a huge influence on Angundsen Borglum. I mean, not only Artistically, Borglum arrived to Europe as a painter, and he left 10 years later as a sculptor. That was largely the influence of Rodin. But more importantly, I think Rodin taught Borglum how to be an iconoclast, how to challenge the status quo. I mean, that's what Borglum really takes to heart, that systems, especially artistic systems, are to be challenged. And so that's something that when he goes back to the United States for good, he never leaves the US again to live. He goes to visit Europe now and then, but when he arrives back in the United States, he is firmly an American artist. And he wants to create very monumental, big, huge American art. And that's something that I think he gets a lot from Rodin.
- [26:24]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Right. So, I mean, these huge sculptures that he wants to be responsible for. I mean, what kind of thing. Can you see his work elsewhere?
- [26:34]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Yeah, definitely. I mean, he's got, you know, what's interesting for someone, and we'll get to this, but he who carved a memorial to the Confederacy, but his artistic muse was actually Abraham Lincoln. And so he carved a marble Lincoln that is still in the U.S. capitol today. He has another huge sculpture of Abraham Lincoln in Newark, New Jersey. But he did. I mean, this period of American art is really defined by memorials and by monuments. It's how artists made a living, quite frankly. And so he was involved with so many different memorials and. And monuments. And what separated Borglum a little bit from his peers was that he had a bad experience submitting a work for a competition, and he did not get selected. And after that, he was like, I'm not submitting to competitions ever again. This is something that the system has created to sort of make us artists have to go through different hoops. If you want me, you just have to hire me, and I will sculpt what you want. And he was very, very forceful. And most people that you read that worked with him found him very challenging to work with.
- [27:36]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
I find him challenging to place as well, because on the one hand, you know, you say he was very much into Lincoln and all the things that we know Lincoln stands for. On the other hand, you read a lot about him being a white supremacist, about these really quite dodgy connections with the Ku Klux Klan. So, I mean, simply put, was the man who sculpted Mount Rushmore a white supremacist? I mean, what did you find out about him?
- [28:02]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
I would say that Borglum's politics are actually really complex. I mean, he was an ardent supporter of Theodore Roosevelt's Progressive Party, and he was a supporter of something called the Nonpartisan League, which was actually a leftist organization that supported farmers over big business and corporations. But I think if I were to say anything, it's that his politics are for the individual, overarching systems, whether that be government corporations, arts organizations. But two things happened in 1915 that are really critical to this story, and that would change both Borglum's politics and how we perceive those politics and how we perceive him today. And the first is that in the summer of 1915, Borglum is asked to come to Atlanta to meet a Confederate widow named Helen Plain. And Helen Plain was very involved in the United Daughters of the Confederacy, which at that time was really busy funding monuments and memorials across the American south to help shape the narrative of the Civil War into a kind of heroic lost cause of the Confederacy.
- [29:08]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
There's something very peculiarly American about Daughters of. I mean, you know, Daughters of the American Revolution, Daughters of the Plymouth Rock, Daughters of the Confederacy. And these are sort of pressure groups, stroke social movements with a great deal of power and influence.
- [29:23]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
They do. They have a great deal of power and influence. And they originated really during the Civil War, where they would clean the grave sites of Confederate soldiers, and they grew and to have a lot of money, a lot of sway, and a lot of power. And what Helen Plain wants is to sculpt a portrait of Robert E. Lee on the side of Stone Mountain, which is a gigantic granite mountain just outside of Atlanta. I mean, it sort of dwarfs Mount Rushmore in many ways, we should point
- [29:48]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
out to those who aren't familiar. But Robert Lee, who President Trump talks about quite a lot as a heroic figure, was the leader of those Confederate forces. And a few years ago, we saw attempts to tear down statues of Lee. So that's who we're talking about. So, okay, she wants a massive Robert E. Lee on the side of Stone Mountain. What does Borglum say?
- [30:10]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Well, Borglum looks at her proposal, and he looks at Stone Mountain, and he tells her that putting a singular portrait on that mountain would be like, quote, putting a stamp on a barn door. He needs it to be bigger, but he loves the idea of creating a memorial to the Confederacy on this gigantic canvas of Stone Mountain. And so that's the first thing that happens. And the second thing that happens is just a few months later, In November of 1915, when a group of about 15 men climbed to the top of Stone Mountain, and they had just seen the American film Birth of a Nation, which is a really iconic film in American film history. And for a lot of reasons, but one of them.
- [30:49]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
It's a Klan movie. It's a Klan movie, isn't it?
- [30:51]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Exactly. It's a Klan movie. It lionizes the Ku Klux Klan, which at that point is defunct. It's not. It doesn't exist anymore. So what these men do after seeing the movie is that they climb to the top of Stone Mountain, they burn a 16 foot cross, and they relaunch the KKK, beginning what is commonly known as the second KKK. And it's Borglum's involvement with this KKK in Atlanta that provides the impetus for your question as to whether he was a white supremacist and the speculation over his politics.
- [31:22]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
I mean, you're very careful about this chapter and I respect you for it, that you go for sources. But there are many suggestions that he donned the hood and went to Klan rallies. I mean, why do you not go as far as others have gone that he was basically a Klansman working on a Confederate monument?
- [31:42]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Well, he was definitely working on that Confederate monument. And his letters are full of virulent anti immigrant rhetoric, anti Jewish rhetoric. I have found no evidence that he actually donned a hood or went to rallies. I mean, clearly he's involved in sort of helping clan leadership. They're getting introduction. He's giving them introductions to national politicians. In some senses he's advising on clan policy, but he's also, at the same time, he knows what he's doing. I don't want to say it's wrong because I'm not sure that that's the word he would use. But he's careful. He does not want word to get out that he's working with the Klan. He knows that his friends up north in New York City and Connecticut, you know, would, would be aghast that he's
- [32:29]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
doing this and he's working for Helen Plane. And Helen Plane does directly suggest to him that you know, as well as your, your Confederate soldiers, could you put, you know, sort of Klansmen in their knightly uniform approaching in the distance. And she, you know, sort of describes the clan in her own words as the men who had saved the south, direct quote from Negro domination and carpet bag rule. So, I mean, you know, it's, it's there in black and white. That is his commission and that's who's commissioning him. How much? Does he have sort of no moral compass or ignore the moral compass or is this his moral compass? I guess that's what, you know, look, was the man who sculpted Mount Rushmore in the KKK simple as That I
- [33:13]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
suppose I would say that he was not an official member of the kkk, but he was definitely someone that was sympathetic to their worldview and helped them to achieve policy goals. And, you know, he. I think one of the things that really damns Gunsen Borglum in terms of his relationship with the KKK is he had a very close relationship to an awful human being named D.C. stevenson, who was the Grand Dragon of the Indiana clan and probably the most powerful clan figure in the United States at that time. And his letters to Stevenson are just terrible reading from the perspective of today. And Stevenson himself would later be convicted of rape and murder of a young woman. And that is one of the cases that actually helps end the second iteration of the Ku Klux Klan as, as kind of a respectable force in mainstream American politics. And there's also a lot of indications that the Klan was supportive obviously of Stone Mountain, but also of initially Mount Rushmore. And so like, I do think that Borglum's this period of his is extremely problematic. And what's interesting about it from my perspective with Mount Rushmore is that there is no mention of it at Mount Rushmore. It's like this 10 year period of his just did not exist.
- [34:24]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Well, I mean, we haven't even got to Rushmore, but we should end the story of the Confederate job that he is offered because does it ever happen? It doesn't, does it? Because the funding dries up.
- [34:36]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
It's a crazy story actually, because if they're trying to get funding, and if you can believe it, the US treasury actually mints a coin to honor the Confederacy. And this is obviously the country they were at war with a couple of generations ago. And the money from that coin is supposed to go to the building of Stone Mountain Memorial, but there's a huge dispute over where that money is actually going to go. And the Stone Mountain Memorial association, which is basically the kkk, so many of the members of that association are members of the kkk. They ask Borglum to reduce his artistic ambition and to take a set chunk of money and let the KKK pocket the rest. So in other words, the KKK asks Borglum to let the US Fund the organization, not the memorial. And Borglum says no, he doesn't want to do it, and he thinks the clan is becoming just another corrupt organization. So he's fired in February 1925. And at this point, Borglund's been working on Stone mountain for about 10 years and he's made Atlanta his home. And he's extremely upset. He's rageful and so he destroys the models of Stone Mountain. And if he's not going to build Stone Mountain, then no one will.
- [35:45]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
There is a Lee carving, though, isn't there? I mean, because he's been working for 10 years. It's not that there's nothing. There is a. There is a Lee. The stamp on the. What did he call it? The stamp on the mountain. He's got that postage stamp on the mountain. But then it gets sandblasted off. A new sculptor is brought in to begin again. And this is, I suppose, one of the most troubling things about Borglum is that when, you know, he's replaced, they find somebody who will do whatever it is that Borglum won't do. Maybe, I don't know, share the money with the KKK or whatever it is. I'm not. I'm not familiar with the detail, but his reaction I am familiar with. He says of his successor, every able man in America refused it, meaning the commission, and thank God, every Christian, they got a Jew. I mean, he did say that.
- [36:32]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
He did say that, and that is definitely in Borglum's worldview. I mean, he was very anti Semitic. And the thing about Stone Mountain, too, is that Borglum, it impacted him throughout the course of his life. And, like, he had to escape Stone Mountain. He had to flee in the night after this warrant for his arrest was put out. And so there's this great scene where he and this assistant of his are driving at night through the Georgian wilderness, chased by a police car. There might be some gunshots being fired. And all Borglum wants to do is to get over state lines so he can't get arrested. And he does. He gets over state lines, but he's now a fugitive from justice. He's lost his Stone Mountain project and it's at that moment that he begins to seriously consider Mount Rushmore. And six months after he left Stone Mountain, he's on top of Mount Rushmore for the first dedication.
- [37:25]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Let's take a break there. Join us after the break. It's a cliffhanger. And there is more extraordinary stuff to come.
- [37:37]
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Gary Lineker / Disaster Emergency Committee Announcer
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- [39:57]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Welcome back. So just before the break, we left Borglum, who was in a fast car pursued by police. How does he speed his way all the way to South Dakota and end up in this Robinson project for Mount Rushmore?
- [40:12]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Yeah, well he had, I mean he had, he and Robinson had had some correspondences over the years, of course, and. But he's firmly in South Dakota now in 1925. And as soon as he's there, he begins to overrule a lot of Robinson's ideas. I mean, Robinson wanted the location to be in the Needles. Borglum rejects that as too thin and too vertical. And he wants something more massive and broad and south facing for the light. And so he and Robinson hike to the top of the tallest peak in the Black Hills, which was Then called Harney Peak, which is now called Black Elk Peak. And they look out over the whole range and Orglam sees the six grandfathers, which is now called Mount Rushmore. And he says, here is the place American history shall march on the skyline. And so it's American history marching on the skyline of someone else's sacred mountain. And so he changes also the subject. And who's going to be on this mountain?
- [41:07]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Right. Because Robinson was all into the local hero aspect. Let's celebrate, as you said, Buffalo Bill, Red Cloud, Sacagawea, you know, these huge characters from Native American history. And he says, no, no, not doing that.
- [41:21]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Right, exactly, exactly. And he chooses four men who for him will come to represent American empire. And Borglum is quite explicit about this. In the months after he saw Rushmore from a distance, he actually sees the mountain up close. He's on horseback with a guide wearing his ass, mascot and cowboy hat. And he traipses around the mountain and sort of gets a sense of it. And that night, in his journal, he writes, he creates the project of Mount Rushmore. He writes, a group of empire makers. Jefferson, Lincoln, Roosevelt. And Washington was already a foregone conclusion. And so for each president, the connection to empire is clear. I mean, Washington represents the founding of the country. Jefferson, because of the Louisiana Purchase, the expanding of the country, Lincoln, its preservation, and Theodore Roosevelt, the unification. I mean, Borglum was obsessed with the Panama Canal, and he believed that Theodore Roosevelt had connected the Eastern and Western hemispheres with the Panama Canal.
- [42:17]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Again, I find this so fascinating. I hope to talk about this with Ken Burns, that a nation that predicates itself on escaping from an empire, you know, the British Empire, but then has these monuments to empire builders like Rushmore, but doesn't actually explicitly say it until now. But anyway, that's a conversation for another time. Do listen to our Ken Burns episode, if you're interested in what we get from that. Can we go to the big booms? I mean, at what point do they start blasting? Because it is blasting, isn't it? I mean, did you know 90% of the work on Mount Rushmore was done by dynamite?
- [42:54]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Yeah, it is remarkable. That was the primary way they got rock off the mountain was through dynamite. And it took 14 years of work to build Mount Rushmore. And in that 14 years of dynamiting and dangling off a mountain, none of the 400 men who worked at Mount Rushmore were killed. I mean, there were some injuries and some near misses, but there were no deaths. And it's really one of the more remarkable facts about the place. I mean, there are some really wonderful oral histories of the workers of Mount Rushmore, and most of them have been preserved through the South Dakota Oral History Project or, or through older books of Mount Rushmore. But what really comes away is the fear that a lot of the workers had. I mean, there were not many men who could do what was required. I mean, there's lots of mention of these grizzled miners who had spent hours underneath the earth mining different elements, but they could not sit in those chairs and dangle above the earth while holding heavy machinery to carve Mount Rushmore.
- [43:52]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Can we talk about the chairs? Because you're talking about boatswain chairs. These are basically wooden garden seats, as we would imagine them here in the uk, and they're sort of lowered down and these men, you know, hundreds of feet up in the air, have to drill holes with heavy machinery, pack charges and blast the surface of a mountain. It is dangerous. It is extraordinary, as you say, that nobody is killed, but there are. I mean, are people hurt? I mean, there are near misses or, you know, does that mean that people are maimed or hurt or. Actually, it's a miracle that they aren't.
- [44:23]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
There's only one real instance where someone was seriously hurt, where there was a cable car that brought people up and down the mountain and one of the brakes stopped working with was. This one was going down. And so someone jumped out of the cable car and landed and had to go to the hospital for a broken bone. But that's it. I mean, you know, I think the larger consequences come later, with all that dynamiting, with all that carving. People are breathing in this granitic dust, silicillus dust, and that causes a lot of lung problems for people later on in life. But at the time, Borglum took a great deal of pride in the safety record of. Of Rushmore. And in this sense, he deserves that pride. I mean, no one died in the 14 years of construction.
- [45:03]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
It's amazing. It's amazing, Matt. I mean, 90% by dynamite, but the fine detailing, the perspective, I mean, you know, all of that has to be done by chiseling, doesn't it? I mean, how did that all work?
- [45:15]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
It did. I mean, Borglum had created a model that he wanted the mountain to look like. And so as they got closer and closer to after the dynamiting, they had to go in very distinctly and chisel the details. And I think the eyes in particular are the ones to really look at. If you look at the eyes, what he did was carved deep into the mountain, sort of a recess. You have this one piece of stone that sort of sticks out, that looks like an eyeball, but which is really just stone surrounded by space. So it creates the illusion of light that that's the case. And they had to go in and detail that very much with chisels. So, again, these men are hanging over the mountain with this heavy machinery carving into this granite.
- [45:56]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
There was meant to be a lot more to Mount Rushmore than the thing that we see today. Because Borglum had this huge obsession, did he not, about having an enormous chamber that he wanted to blast into the rock behind the President's heads. And he wanted. Now, is this right? He wanted the actual copies of the Declaration and the Constitution to somehow be embedded in the rock? Not copies, not the sort of metal plates of them, but the actual original documents?
- [46:22]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Yeah, I mean, he had this vision for a hall of records, and it was his pet project that never really got finished. And he wanted to put in there different, not just the documents of the Constitution and Declaration, but he wanted to create these smaller busts of Americans who had contributed to American history. And it's weirdly not dissimilar to Trump's obsession with the Garden of Heroes. And that's basically what Trump Borglum was suggesting back in the 1930s. And so that, of course, never gets finished.
- [46:53]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
The other thing that doesn't get finished. Can we talk about Ghost Jefferson? Because there is a sort of a half finished Jefferson phase, which I'm somewhat obsessed with, that never got finished. Can you just tell us that story?
- [47:04]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
So Jefferson was initially supposed to be on Washington's right, but there was not enough granite to carve Jefferson there. So they started, but they realized they quickly had to scrape that face. And so Jefferson ultimately was put on Washington's left. And that's just one example of how they had to really work in progress with the mountain itself. I mean, they had funding challenges, especially in the early years. There were initial designs to have torsos, and you can see in George Washington the faint outlines of lapels that were supposed to be on all presidents, but they just did not get to that part of the sculpture. So all you see are these mammoth 60 foot faces.
- [47:47]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
And they're so ubiquitous in culture, I guess. You know, you see these faces on postcards, stamps, Hitchcock's north by Northwest, you know, that's a massive scene with the mountains as backdrop, as well as funding difficulties, granite difficulties, things that go boom difficulties. You also have actually legal difficulties and very serious ones. In 1980 with the Supreme Court. Can you tell us briefly about what happens there?
- [48:13]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Sure. Well, from many around the time that Mount Rushmore was the idea was originated, the Lakota began to pursue a land claim against the United States government for the theft of the Black Hills. And that sort of sees actualization in 1980, when the Supreme Court sides with the lower court's ruling and rules that the 1877 taking of the hills was unconstantal seizure or of property without just compensation and a violation of the Fifth Amendment. And so they award the Lakota the 1877 value of the land, which is $17.1 million, plus 103 years of interest, which brings it to a total of $105 million in 1980. And the line in the court's opinion is rather extraordinary for the Supreme Court. They actually are echoing a lower court's ruling when they say that a more ripe and rank case of dishonorable dealings will never in all probability, be found in our history. And that's a Supreme Court saying this about this theft. And the Lakota refused the money. And this is a really important point, because in 1980, that money is $105 million, and today that money is almost over $2 billion. And Lakota refused the money, refused it in 1980, and refuse it today, because to take that money would be to agree that the land was sold, and legally accepting the money would be to extinguish the claim. And so the Lakota position is not that the Black Hills went for a bad price, it's that they were never for sale. So that's a really important element to this story, and it's in some ways its own right, kind of a monument to a refusal.
- [49:53]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Let's talk about its position and standing today. I mean, first of all, you know, AI can put Donald Trump's face on it, but I believe not a mountain that can sustain another face can it, if he's serious.
- [50:05]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
No. I mean, most geologists, most surveys of the mountain say that another face could not be added. It would not be possible. And, you know, I think that's something that probably disappoints Trump. And, I mean, I guess there's the potential for a smaller face to be added to Russia more. But can you see Trump having a smaller face at Mount Rushmore? I'm not sure he would be down with that. But most people say that you cannot add a fifth face to Mount Rushmore.
- [50:28]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
Right. And just, I mean, what does it. What place does it inhabit in the American psyche now? Because you've got Your big anniversary. Happy birthday in advance, by the way. And Rushmore is going to be front and center in these celebrations. I mean, as a historian of Rushmore, is that right? Is it, is it decent? Borglum, I'm sure, would have loved it, but I mean, what do you make of all of that?
- [50:51]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Yeah, Borglum would have loved it. So I have come around to really the belief that whether it's Mount Rushmore or other memorials and monuments across the country, that the materials that they're built out of are much more solid than what the meanings of these memorials are. And so when, when Borglum created Mount Rushmore, he had an idea for the meaning of Mount Rushmore. President Trump has an idea for the meaning of Mount Rushmore. The Lakota give a meaning to Mount Rushmore. And I think that is really something that is powerful about this story because really, we all have the power and ability to ascribe meaning to Mount Rushmore, especially if you understand the full scope of the history or the story. And that's what makes it interesting to me. So I do fear that the memorial, that Mount Rushmore, it has already played a role and a backdrop to Trump's historical ideology. And I'm fearful that this July 3rd, when there's fireworks there, again, that that will also be the case. But I think it does have the potential to be so much more than what it has been narrowed down into by Trump and the MAGA community.
- [52:00]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
It has been an absolute pleasure talking to you. Can I just really commend this book? The book is called A Biography of a the Making and Meaning of Mount Rushmore. I've just loved reading it. Go get it. Matthew, thank you so much for that.
- [52:13]
Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
Thank you, Anita. It was really wonderful being on with you. I appreciate it.
- [52:16]
Anita (Empire Podcast Host/Interviewer)
And if you have enjoyed listening to Empire, if you'd like early access ad free episodes, our full reading list for not just this episode, our weekly newsletter. So many things. Just join empire club@empirepoduk.com, empirepoduk.com Next time on Empire, you will hear a chat with Ken Burns, America's historian. Till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me.
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Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
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Matthew Davis (Author and Guest)
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