Jung Chang On Life Under Mao & Being Banned From China

Summary

---

Empire: World History

Episode: Jung Chang On Life Under Mao & Being Banned From China

Host: William Dalrymple & Anita Anand

Guest: Jung Chang

Date: April 2, 2026

---

Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. Jung Chang, acclaimed author of Wild Swans and several biographies including that of Mao Zedong, reflecting on her personal lived experiences during Mao’s Cultural Revolution in China. The conversation provides a visceral, first-hand account of violence, ideological fervor, family persecution, and survival, offering a unique filter through which to understand the rise and fall of Maoist China. Jung Chang describes the terror and resilience of her family, what it was like being swept into—and then resisting—the Red Guard movement, and the broader destruction of Chinese culture and daily life under Mao.

---

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jung Chang’s Red Guard Experience

• Short Tenure & Emotional Detachment

  • Jung Chang clarifies she was a Red Guard for only two weeks, highlighting that "everybody of my generation was a Red Guard" (03:05).
  • She emphasizes her reluctance and fear:

    “Radicalism, violence and atrocities were not in my nature. So I was terrified. And I was very much of an onlooker rather than a participant.” — Jung Chang [03:12]

• Psychological Distance

  • She recounts the “dread” and “disgust” she felt witnessing fervor and violence at school, with young people swept up in the cultural mania (04:10):

    “I hated all that. I feared all that. I lived in dread, in disgust all the time...” — Jung Chang [04:10]

2. Destruction of Tradition and Culture

• First-Hand Witness to Cultural Vandalism

  • Jung Chang describes the destruction at her historical school, including ancient buildings, Confucius tablets, and gardens, fulfilling Mao's order to “destroy old culture” (05:22):

    “When the Cultural Revolution started in 1966, all these things were destroyed under my eyes.” — Jung Chang [04:10]

• Personal Trauma & Community Brutality

  • She recalls how a beloved gardener was “ferociously beaten up,” gardens and books destroyed, and the library sealed off (06:20).

3. Family Persecution and Denunciation

• Parents as Targets

  • Both parents, devoted Communist Party officials, become victims:
    • Her father was brutalized and labeled an “anti-Mao counterrevolutionary,” suffering multiple denunciations, beatings, and lasting injuries (08:10):

      “Far worse. He was beaten up. His legs, his ribs were broken... he was sort of temporarily blind.”—Jung Chang [08:10]

    • Her mother was pressured to denounce her husband but refused, and endured repeated public humiliations (09:10).

• Family Trauma and Bravery

  • On the emotional effect:

    “It sort of made me more brave because I sort of admired my parents... I was full of admiration for my parents.” — Jung Chang [09:15]

4. Personal Risk for Literature

• Poetry as Dissent

  • On her sixteenth birthday, Jung wrote a poem expressing her disillusionment but had to destroy it when Red Guards raided her home (10:39):

    “That was the first time I thought clearly in my head that the society I was living in was hell... I rushed to the bathroom to tear up my poem and flush it down the toilet.” — Jung Chang [10:45]

• Resilience Through Secret Reading

  • Her entrepreneurial younger brother sourced forbidden books from a black market, which she secretly read—helping “keep me sane” (11:47).

5. Survival and Organization Under Oppression

• Order Amidst Oppression

  • Jung discusses how the apparent “chaos” was, in reality, systematically organized by the state (13:04):

    “People often described Red Guard violence as though it was something that gone out of hand, far from it... everything was organized. The banks were working. Nobody robbed a bank. That’s not the sign of a society in chaos.” — Jung Chang [13:04]

• Basic Subsistence

  • Despite losing their parents’ salaries, the children received allowances and some services, evidence of the regime’s tight administrative grip (13:42).

6. Labor Exile and Becoming a “Barefoot Doctor”

• From Peasant Laborer to Makeshift Doctor

  • Exiled to rural labor, Jung becomes a “barefoot doctor” at 17—practicing medicine without training, relying only on a manual (16:01):

    “I became a doctor without any training. I had one book which was a barefoot doctor’s manual, and... of course they all were wise. They steered clear of me to go to a trained doctor.” — Jung Chang [14:52]

• Acupuncture and Companions

  • She learned acupuncture, with boys from other villages volunteering as “guinea pigs”—in her words, because "they were keen on me" (16:26).

7. The Nixon Visit & Narrowing of Information

• Limited Access to Western Literature

  • Nixon's historic visit led to the allowed circulation of six foreign books, heavily censored but eye-opening for Jung (16:49):

    “They opened my eyes to the contemporary west, which was incredible. You know, when I was growing up in China, China was completely isolated from the outside world.” — Jung Chang [17:00]

• Propaganda and Childhood Indoctrination

  • She recounts how only the most grim tales from the West (e.g., “The Little Match Girl,” “Oliver Twist”) were allowed, always framed as cautionary about the “capitalist world” (18:10):

    “Oliver wants more. So we were told that was the life of Western children... our teachers would say, think of all the starving children in the capitalist world.” — Jung Chang [18:34]

---

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Everybody of my generation was a Red Guard... I was terrified. And I was very much of an onlooker rather than a participant.” — Jung Chang [03:12]
• “When the Cultural Revolution started in 1966, all these things were destroyed under my eyes.” — Jung Chang [04:10]
• “My father went through dozens and dozens of denunciation meetings... his legs, his ribs were broken when the eye was sort of temporarily blind.” — Jung Chang [08:10]
• “The society I was living in was hell... I rushed to the bathroom to tear up my poem and flush it down the toilet.” — Jung Chang [10:45]
• “People often described Red Guard violence as though it was something that gone out of hand, far from it... everything was organized.” — Jung Chang [13:04]
• “I became a doctor without any training... they steered clear of me to go to a trained doctor.” — Jung Chang [14:52]
• “They opened my eyes to the contemporary west, which was incredible...” — Jung Chang [17:00]

---

Important Timestamps

• [03:05] — Jung Chang on her brief, reluctant spell as a Red Guard
• [04:10] — Destruction of her historic school and Confucian artifacts
• [08:10] — Brutal treatment of her father at denunciation meetings
• [10:45] — Family trauma: flushing her first poem to evade Red Guard punishment
• [13:04] — The supposed “chaos” of the Cultural Revolution: actually tightly controlled
• [14:52] — Life as an untrained “barefoot doctor”
• [16:49] — Gaining access to Western ideas after Nixon’s visit
• [18:10] — Childhood indoctrination through propagandized Western stories

---

Overall Tone

Jung Chang’s recounting is deeply personal, candid, and at times laced with bitter irony—especially on the propaganda and harsh restrictions of her youth. Her tone oscillates between horror at the cruelty and meticulous organization of Maoist repression, and warm admiration for her parents’ courage. William Dalrymple’s questions are empathetic and evocative, drawing out vivid storytelling and introspective reflection.

---

For the full, uncensored conversation, including Jung Chang on being banned from Xi Jinping’s China, listeners are invited to join the Empire Club at empirepoduk.com.

Transcript

[William Drimple]

If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter. Sign up to empire [e-mail].

[TikTok Advertiser]

hey, sorry to interrupt your playlist, but real quick. This might be better than music. We're talking free stuff. Yep, actually free. Just download TikTok search/free, pick items you want, share the link and watch the price drop to zero. Your song will be waiting. Your free Items won't open TikTok and start slashing now. So good, so good, so good.

[Nordstrom Rack Advertiser]

New spring arrivals are at Nordstrom Rack stores now. Get ready to save big with up to 60% off rag and bone marked Jacobs Free people and more.

[TikTok Advertiser]

How did I not know Rack has Adidas?

[Nordstrom Rack Advertiser]

Cause there's always something new. Join the NordicLub to unlock exclusive discounts. Shop new arrivals first and more. Plus buy online and pick up at your favorite Rack store for free. Great brands, great prices. That's why you Rack.

[William Drimple]

Hello Empire listeners and viewers. William Drimple here, and we recently recorded a spectacular bonus episode with Jung Chang all the horrors of Mao's China that ran Amitter told us from the point of view of a historian studying archives. Jung Chang tells us firsthand as a woman who was briefly Red Guard and as someone who saw her parents thrown into labor camps and disgraced at the Cultural Revolution. It's an extraordinary story that she tells from her brilliant memoir Wild Swans and its recent follow up Fly Wild Swans, as well as her great biography of Mao. Here is an extract of the bonus for you to enjoy. And if you want the full episode, including her thoughts on Xi Jinping China's relationship with the US in this new Trump phase of sort of quasi imperialism, join the [e-mail] the link is in the episode description. For the price of a pint a month. You can also get early access to series and ad free free listening. But now here is a bit of our episode with the great Jung Chang

[Jung Chang]

Yung.

[William Drimple]

It wasn't just your parents who were involved in all these events. You yourself were a participant in them. You were a member of the Red Guards. You participated in house raids, attended denunciation meetings, and witnessed sometimes part of real violence against people that were accused of being class enemies. Can you take us back to that moment in your life? What did you believe then and how did it feel to be swept up in that extraordinary fervor of that moment in history?

[Jung Chang]

By the way, I was in the Red Guard for only two weeks.

[William Drimple]

But still, you're the only Red Guard I've ever met. Jung.

[Jung Chang]

No, but everybody of my generation was a Red Guard. So it's not a kind of elite group, not like a Communist Party or the Communist Youth League or even the Young Pioneers. So I was swept into these horrible things which I documented in Wild Swans. But thank God, radicalism, violence and atrocities were not in my nature. So I was terrified. And I was very much of an onlooker rather than a participant.

[William Drimple]

Did you feel detached? Because even just looking at photographs, I've been going through photographs this week of the Cultural Revolution, and there's this sort of fervor in the eyes of the young people as they're beating their fists in the air and holding their Red Books. Did you feel detached from that? Were you aware that this was something you somehow couldn't participate in?

[Jung Chang]

Well, yes. I hated all that. I feared all that. I lived in dread, in disgust all the time, because this sort of thing happened in the school. I mean, in my school, I was 14 when the cultural Revolution started. And my school is the oldest school in China. It was founded in 141 BC. I love that it was a Confucius temple. And so you can imagine they had the most gorgeous campus with antiques, with this great grand Confucius Temple. There is even a canal going across the campus. There was a beautiful garden. And there were two tall stone tablets with Confucius teachings, beautiful calligraphy engraved on it, and the whole thing. And when the Cultural revolution started in 1966, all these things were destroyed under my eyes.

[William Drimple]

These beautiful buildings and all these.

[Jung Chang]

Yeah, the beautiful buildings were ransacked. You know, people climb onto the roof and throw the piles down and basically destroying it. And there was a huge bronze incense burn.

[William Drimple]

I know the thought.

[Jung Chang]

Yeah, it was overturned. The boys were urinating into it. And they organized the crowd to pull down those two giant stone tablets. And when they. They had to hire a truck to do the pulling. Cause it was too deep, the roots were too deep. And when the tablets fell, it sort of. It destroyed a path and the garden was trampled because Mao ordered the young people to destroy old culture. And there was a po Sijiu, the Four Odes.

[William Drimple]

The four Odds. Absolutely.

[Jung Chang]

Yeah. I mean, the key of the four odds was the old culture Chinese cult. And Mao also turned against the horticulture and said cultivating flowers and the grass was a bourgeois habit and get rid of the gardeners. And the gardener in my school was ferociously beaten up. I didn't See it, but I heard about it. And the gardens, all the plants were destroyed and books were burnt. And they didn't have it in my school, but it was sealed off the school library. Nobody was allowed to read. Our teachers were being subject to denunciation meetings. All the pupils were gathered because we were ordered to stay in the school, to take part in the Cultural Revolution. And so we all had to stay there. And the teachers were. I saw my. For example, my English language teacher were put on the stage. His hands were ferociously pushed to the back, head were ferociously pushed down. And he fell. The narrow bench he was forced to stand on, and he cut his forehead. And I saw blood trickling down. I mean, it was summer, August, and for me, my heart was like in the ice in the coldest winter. And when my philosopher teacher was beaten up by pupils of my form because she had criticized them for not working hard.

[William Drimple]

I think your father, you mentioned, suffered the same fate himself. Were you there at the denunciation meeting in the sports ground when he suffered this sort of thing?

[Jung Chang]

Well, my father then decided, this time he must speak up. So he did what he had wanted to do four years ago in the great Famine, and he wrote to Mao, because writing to Mao was the only way you could change policy. You know, my father at denunciation. My father went through dozens and dozens of denunciation meetings. Far worse. He was beaten up. His legs, his ribs were broken when the eye was sort of temporary blind. And because he was what they call that, anti Mao counter revolutionary. And my mother was under tremendous pressure to denounce my father, and she refused. So as a result, she was put through scores of denunciation meetings.

[William Drimple]

What did it feel like to have that happen to your own parents within your own household?

[Jung Chang]

Of course, I'm constantly terrified, but I also. It sort of made me more brave because I sort of admired my parents. From 1415 to the next 10 years was the Cultural Revolution. And I was full of admiration for my parents. And I went with my mother to a denunciation rally, a big one, with thousands of people against her. They didn't know who she was because she wasn't a senior official. But she was denounced because of my father. She was standing by my father. And my mother was suffering from a hemorrhage. And my grandma was sobbing when my mother was taken away, because my grandma felt my mother could have a hemorrhage and die. So When I was 15, I went with my mother, and I sat in a corner. Of course, I saw the horrible thing I described in some detail In a fly, Wild swans. And we went through hell, you know, but the Cultural Revolution broke many families.

[William Drimple]

You describe an extraordinary scene in your own household when there's a raid on the house and you have to flush a poem that you've written down the lavatory, so it's not found. Can you tell that story?

[Jung Chang]

Yes, that's my first literary venture.

[William Drimple]

Things went better after that.

[Jung Chang]

Yes, yes. I was on my. It was my 16th birthday in 1968 and my parents were in detention and I wrote my first poem. And that was the first time I thought clearly in my head that the society I was living in was hell. And I thought that we were always told Communist China was paradise on earth. And I thought, if this was paradise, well then is hell. And so I wrote a poem. And it wasn't political, but all poems were condemned. You know, Mao, who himself was a passionate reader, was so extreme, he criticized Stalin for allowing the classics to survive. He said Stalin made a big mistake, so we were starved of books to read. So on that day I wrote my first poem and I heard the door banging. The Red Guards had come to raid our flat and I would get into trouble, my family would get into trouble for my poem. So I rushed to the bathroom to tear up my poem and flush it down the toilet. But I read some books. I was able to read hundreds of books. And the reason was that I had a 13 year old brother who was very entrepreneurial, who discovered a black market selling books, the books that had escaped the bonfires of the Red Guard. And so my brother built up a big collection. He hid them like under the water tower or under a mattress. And I remember the books I read, I mean, the COVID was torn with and put Mao, selected works of Mao. And so I was able to read these books that really kept me sane.

[William Drimple]

How did you and your siblings survive both, you know, practically and emotionally during this time when your family being persecuted and the family's scattered and your poor father's in detention camp, practically the country

[Jung Chang]

was actually very much controlled, very much orderly. I mean, people often described Red Guard violence as though it was something that gone out of hand, far from it. I mean, I know for a fact that the denunciations against my parents were organized by the people who wanted to suffer. And the house raids were organized. And so our life, my father's, my parents, salaries were stopped, but we were given allowance, each of us was given an allowance, and so we could survive. And the other things, you know, like medical care, you know, whatever. And later, when I was exiled to the age of the Himalayas, to work as a peasant. I mean, the whole thing was superbly organized by Zhou Enlai, Mao's Prime Minister, who was a superb administrator as well as a diplomat. And, you know, we were given like mosquito nets. We were given a water can for the long walks we have to do, and we were given allowance for the first year. So I'm telling you, everything was organized. The banks were working. Nobody robbed a bank. That's not the sign of a society in chaos.

[William Drimple]

Tell me about this time in the countryside, you and your siblings are dispersed, I think, to separate labor camps, and you became an electrician, which is not something I think of you today as being.

[Jung Chang]

Well, first of all, in the countryside, I worked as a peasant, but I became a barefoot doctor because Mao had condemned doctors, and instead the countryside was supposed to have barefoot doctors. Barefoot doctors basically meant peasant doctors who treasure their shoes too much so they go barefoot. And I became a doctor. But because Mao also condemned for education and books and said the more books you read, the more stupid you become. I became a doctor without any training. I had one book which was a barefoot doctor's manual, and on one page symptoms, and on the opposite page prescriptions. So if a peasant came to me, I look at the symptoms, I look at the prescriptions, and of course they all wise. They steered clear of me to go to a trained doctor.

[William Drimple]

How old were you at this point?

[Jung Chang]

I was 17 at this point. And the other thing is, I did learn acupuncture from being a barefoot doctor and because the peasants didn't trust me. And there were some boys who were exiled to the other villages, and they came to be my guinea pigs.

[William Drimple]

That's because they were keen on you, or what was their motives?

[Jung Chang]

They were keen on me? Yes. I was 17.

[William Drimple]

Jung, you describe as one of the more unexpected moments in your story Nixon's visit to China in 1972. And you write about your joy at the visit partly because it helped generate a new climate in which some of the translations of foreign books became available. You could actually get hold of some books. Tell us about all that.

[Jung Chang]

Yes, Well, I read six books. I think six books were allowed. So six Western modern. Western books were allowed.

[William Drimple]

What were they?

[Jung Chang]

They were Nixon's own six crises, although with the anti communist bits edited out. And there was the best and the brightest about the Kennedy administration. And there was the Winds of War, Herman Wook, which was made into a brilliant, wonderful television series. And I remember these books, I mean, they were not for the general public. They were the top elite. But through the friends of my parents, I laid my hands on them and they opened my eyes to the contemporary west, which was incredible. You know, when I was growing up in China, China was completely isolated from the outside world. And I only read when I was a child, when what was allowed was the Little Match Girl from Hans Christine Andersen because she died of cold and hunger on New Year's Eve. That's the capitalist society. And the other was Dickens's Oliver Twist. I think excerpts of it. And the book was translated into the Orphan in the Capital of Fog. So I remember today clearly these great big eyes and stretched hand with a bow. Oliver wants more. So we were told that was the life of Western children. And before the famine, I was in the kindergarten. And when the children there was no food. Well, we were in the elite, so there was enough food. And if we wouldn't eat up our food, our tea teachers would say, think of all the starving children in the capitalist world.

[William Drimple]

Hope you enjoyed that extract. To listen to the full episode where Yun Chang describes being banned from Xi Jinping's China, unable to see her dying mother and her thoughts on Iran and Venezuela, you've got to head to empirepoduk.com and join our wonderful club.