Empire: World History

Episode: Jung Chang On Life Under Mao & Being Banned From China

Host: William Dalrymple & Anita Anand

Guest: Jung Chang

Date: April 2, 2026

Episode Overview

This episode features Dr. Jung Chang, acclaimed author of Wild Swans and several biographies including that of Mao Zedong, reflecting on her personal lived experiences during Mao’s Cultural Revolution in China. The conversation provides a visceral, first-hand account of violence, ideological fervor, family persecution, and survival, offering a unique filter through which to understand the rise and fall of Maoist China. Jung Chang describes the terror and resilience of her family, what it was like being swept into—and then resisting—the Red Guard movement, and the broader destruction of Chinese culture and daily life under Mao.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Jung Chang’s Red Guard Experience

• Short Tenure & Emotional Detachment

  • Jung Chang clarifies she was a Red Guard for only two weeks, highlighting that "everybody of my generation was a Red Guard" (03:05).
  • She emphasizes her reluctance and fear:

    “Radicalism, violence and atrocities were not in my nature. So I was terrified. And I was very much of an onlooker rather than a participant.” — Jung Chang [03:12]

• Psychological Distance

  • She recounts the “dread” and “disgust” she felt witnessing fervor and violence at school, with young people swept up in the cultural mania (04:10):

    “I hated all that. I feared all that. I lived in dread, in disgust all the time...” — Jung Chang [04:10]

2. Destruction of Tradition and Culture

• First-Hand Witness to Cultural Vandalism

  • Jung Chang describes the destruction at her historical school, including ancient buildings, Confucius tablets, and gardens, fulfilling Mao's order to “destroy old culture” (05:22):

    “When the Cultural Revolution started in 1966, all these things were destroyed under my eyes.” — Jung Chang [04:10]

• Personal Trauma & Community Brutality

  • She recalls how a beloved gardener was “ferociously beaten up,” gardens and books destroyed, and the library sealed off (06:20).

3. Family Persecution and Denunciation

• Parents as Targets

  • Both parents, devoted Communist Party officials, become victims:
    • Her father was brutalized and labeled an “anti-Mao counterrevolutionary,” suffering multiple denunciations, beatings, and lasting injuries (08:10):

      “Far worse. He was beaten up. His legs, his ribs were broken... he was sort of temporarily blind.”—Jung Chang [08:10]

    • Her mother was pressured to denounce her husband but refused, and endured repeated public humiliations (09:10).

• Family Trauma and Bravery

  • On the emotional effect:

    “It sort of made me more brave because I sort of admired my parents... I was full of admiration for my parents.” — Jung Chang [09:15]

4. Personal Risk for Literature

• Poetry as Dissent

  • On her sixteenth birthday, Jung wrote a poem expressing her disillusionment but had to destroy it when Red Guards raided her home (10:39):

    “That was the first time I thought clearly in my head that the society I was living in was hell... I rushed to the bathroom to tear up my poem and flush it down the toilet.” — Jung Chang [10:45]

• Resilience Through Secret Reading

  • Her entrepreneurial younger brother sourced forbidden books from a black market, which she secretly read—helping “keep me sane” (11:47).

5. Survival and Organization Under Oppression

• Order Amidst Oppression

  • Jung discusses how the apparent “chaos” was, in reality, systematically organized by the state (13:04):

    “People often described Red Guard violence as though it was something that gone out of hand, far from it... everything was organized. The banks were working. Nobody robbed a bank. That’s not the sign of a society in chaos.” — Jung Chang [13:04]

• Basic Subsistence

  • Despite losing their parents’ salaries, the children received allowances and some services, evidence of the regime’s tight administrative grip (13:42).

6. Labor Exile and Becoming a “Barefoot Doctor”

• From Peasant Laborer to Makeshift Doctor

  • Exiled to rural labor, Jung becomes a “barefoot doctor” at 17—practicing medicine without training, relying only on a manual (16:01):

    “I became a doctor without any training. I had one book which was a barefoot doctor’s manual, and... of course they all were wise. They steered clear of me to go to a trained doctor.” — Jung Chang [14:52]

• Acupuncture and Companions

  • She learned acupuncture, with boys from other villages volunteering as “guinea pigs”—in her words, because "they were keen on me" (16:26).

7. The Nixon Visit & Narrowing of Information

• Limited Access to Western Literature

  • Nixon's historic visit led to the allowed circulation of six foreign books, heavily censored but eye-opening for Jung (16:49):

    “They opened my eyes to the contemporary west, which was incredible. You know, when I was growing up in China, China was completely isolated from the outside world.” — Jung Chang [17:00]

• Propaganda and Childhood Indoctrination

  • She recounts how only the most grim tales from the West (e.g., “The Little Match Girl,” “Oliver Twist”) were allowed, always framed as cautionary about the “capitalist world” (18:10):

    “Oliver wants more. So we were told that was the life of Western children... our teachers would say, think of all the starving children in the capitalist world.” — Jung Chang [18:34]

Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• “Everybody of my generation was a Red Guard... I was terrified. And I was very much of an onlooker rather than a participant.” — Jung Chang [03:12]
• “When the Cultural Revolution started in 1966, all these things were destroyed under my eyes.” — Jung Chang [04:10]
• “My father went through dozens and dozens of denunciation meetings... his legs, his ribs were broken when the eye was sort of temporarily blind.” — Jung Chang [08:10]
• “The society I was living in was hell... I rushed to the bathroom to tear up my poem and flush it down the toilet.” — Jung Chang [10:45]
• “People often described Red Guard violence as though it was something that gone out of hand, far from it... everything was organized.” — Jung Chang [13:04]
• “I became a doctor without any training... they steered clear of me to go to a trained doctor.” — Jung Chang [14:52]
• “They opened my eyes to the contemporary west, which was incredible...” — Jung Chang [17:00]

Important Timestamps

• [03:05] — Jung Chang on her brief, reluctant spell as a Red Guard
• [04:10] — Destruction of her historic school and Confucian artifacts
• [08:10] — Brutal treatment of her father at denunciation meetings
• [10:45] — Family trauma: flushing her first poem to evade Red Guard punishment
• [13:04] — The supposed “chaos” of the Cultural Revolution: actually tightly controlled
• [14:52] — Life as an untrained “barefoot doctor”
• [16:49] — Gaining access to Western ideas after Nixon’s visit
• [18:10] — Childhood indoctrination through propagandized Western stories

Overall Tone

Jung Chang’s recounting is deeply personal, candid, and at times laced with bitter irony—especially on the propaganda and harsh restrictions of her youth. Her tone oscillates between horror at the cruelty and meticulous organization of Maoist repression, and warm admiration for her parents’ courage. William Dalrymple’s questions are empathetic and evocative, drawing out vivid storytelling and introspective reflection.

For the full, uncensored conversation, including Jung Chang on being banned from Xi Jinping’s China, listeners are invited to join the Empire Club at empirepoduk.com.