Should The Koh-I-Noor Be Returned? Mamdani vs King Charles III EXPLAINED

Summary

Empire: World History – Should The Koh-I-Noor Be Returned? Mamdani vs King Charles III EXPLAINED

Podcast Hosts: William Dalrymple & Anita Anand
Release Date: May 1, 2026

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Episode Overview

This emergency episode of Empire addresses the resurging controversy over the Koh-i-Noor diamond, sparked by recent international headlines and public calls—most prominently from Zoran Mamdani—for the British Royal Family to return the jewel to India. Hosts William Dalrymple and Anita Anand trace the diamond’s blood-soaked journey, its burden of myth and colonial legacy, and the complexities surrounding modern restitution demands.

Both with scholarly insight and wry humor, Dalrymple and Anand interweave the Koh-i-Noor’s chaotic provenance with the emotional and political tensions it stokes today.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why an Emergency Podcast?

• The Koh-i-Noor’s return is “all the rage” in current affairs, following headlines where Mamdani directly urges King Charles III to “give the priceless diamond back to India” ([00:32]–[01:08]).
• The renewed focus discomforts the British royals, who had reportedly tried to sidestep the controversy at the coronation.

2. The Curse and Myth of the Koh-i-Noor

• Origins of the Curse:
  • Draws from Hindu scripture (Bhagavad Purana), wherein certain gems, especially flawed diamonds, are believed to bring terrible luck ([02:49]).
  • The diamond is said to “destroy all who come into contact.” Dalrymple: "No man is ever going to be worthy to wear this diamond. It destroys all who come into contact..." ([02:10]).
• Historical Bloodshed:
  • “There are piles of bodies. Wherever this rock has rolled, it has rolled over the dead and the grief stricken.” —Anita Anand ([04:07]).

3. Tracing the Diamond’s History: Fact vs Legend

• First Verified Reference:
  • English knowledge came from Theo Metcalfe, a colonial official and unreliable narrator who fabricated much of the early legend ([05:01],[05:12]).
  • The first verified use of the name “Koh-i-Noor” is in a Persian biography of Nader Shah, dating to around 1750 ([06:10]).
• Its Journey:
  • Mined in Golconda, moved through the hands of Kakatiya kings → Delhi Sultans → Mughal emperors → Persians (Nader Shah) → Afghans (Ahmad Shah Durrani) → Sikhs (Ranjit Singh), and finally to the British ([06:10]–[11:00]).
• Myth vs History:
  • Many other diamonds were conflated with the Koh-i-Noor, making its true path murky until the 18th century ([06:41]).

4. Victims of the Diamond’s Curse

• Owners’ Downfalls:
  • Nader Shah murdered by his relatives after descending into madness ([09:38]).
  • Ahmad Shah Durrani dies with his face ravaged by disease and maggots ([09:53]).
  • The diamond was used as a paperweight by a mullah, demonstrating its many strange turns ([10:44]).
  • Ranjit Singh wore it defiantly, only to suffer a catastrophic stroke ([12:20]).

5. Competing Claims & Contentious Inheritance

• Orissa, Punjab, Afghanistan, Iran:
  • After Ranjit Singh’s death, claims arose from Hindu priests (Orissa), Sikhs, the state, and even within the family ([13:21]–[15:34]).
  • The treasurer, Misr Beliram, hid the diamond to prevent it being given away or stolen.
  • “There is a big row even to this day about what happens.” —Anita Anand ([15:07]).
• Bloodbath after Ranjit Singh:
  • Endless intrigue, murder, and chaos, resulting in the child Duleep Singh as last “man” standing ([16:14]–[16:59]).

6. The British Takeover

• Forcing the ‘Gift’:
  • After two Anglo-Sikh wars, the British seized Punjab and the Koh-i-Noor, separating boy king Duleep Singh from his mother ([18:14]).
  • He was forced to sign a document surrendering the diamond, a move he contested lifelong:
    • “You promised that you were my friend. But you’ve taken everything from me. This isn’t right, this isn’t justice and I’ll sue you in the courts.” —paraphrasing Duleep Singh ([19:09]).
• Transport & Catastrophe:
  • The diamond’s journey to Britain was beset with misfortunes: near-shipwreck, deaths by cholera, the Queen assaulted, a PM crushed under his horse—all coinciding with its arrival ([19:55]).
• British Redesign:
  • Prince Albert had the Koh-i-Noor recut, losing two thirds of its mass, against expert advice.
    • “He insists on doing it. And two thirds of the mass...disintegrates. We don’t know what’s happened to the rest of the diamond.” —Anita Anand ([20:44]).
  • Designed as both a brooch and a coronet setting for Queen Victoria ([21:20]). Only female consorts wore it thereafter, due to superstition.

7. The Tower of London Today — and Ongoing Anger

• Public Reaction:
  • Anita Anand recounts scenes of Indians, Pakistanis, and Afghans at the display:
    • “The swearing that would occur in front of the glass...thieves, thieves, thieves. This is ours. How dare they.” ([22:18]).
• Modern Display:
  • The diamond is now on public view, but its brief viewing time did nothing to placate angry crowds ([22:51]).
  • “The only thing that achieved was it taught many brown people how to moonwalk.” – Anita Anand ([22:51]).

8. Calls for Restitution: Mamdani, the Palace, and Colonial Debate

• Current Pressure:
  • Zoran Mamdani advocates vocally for return to India; the Royal Family evasive ([23:02]).
  • Queen Camilla notably refused to wear it at the coronation.
• Who Owns It?
  • Numerous claimants: Orissa, Punjab, Afghanistan, Iran, Pakistan, and Bangladesh (with Pakistan submitting the first post-independence legal claim in 1976) ([23:43]).
  • Dalrymple: "It’s rather like Solomon’s baby ... divided." ([24:10]).
• Colonial Loot Debate:
  • Questions over the legitimacy of British acquisition:
    • “There’s a whole lot of nonsense...the diamond was given as a grateful gift by the Indians. No, it never was. It was given by Ranjit Singh. He was long dead. That’s not possible. Unless he did it by Ouija board.” —Anita Anand ([24:18]).
  • British defense, as voiced by (former PM) David Cameron:
    • "If you say yes to one [restitution claim], you suddenly find the British Museum would be empty.” ([26:19]–[26:42]).

9. The Koh-i-Noor as Symbol of Colonialism

• Dalrymple reflects on its power to focus the pain of South Asian colonial loss:
  • "This little diamond has within it the power of bringing up all the pain of colonialism. And people in India and South Asia associate this one object with everything that was taken from them." ([25:44])
• The multiplicity of claimants potentially lets Britain avoid returning it by re-invoking 'divide and rule'.

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On the curse:
  • “No man is ever going to be worthy to wear this diamond. It destroys all who come into contact.” – William Dalrymple ([02:10])
• On the scale of suffering:
  • “There are piles of bodies. Wherever this rock has rolled, it has rolled over the dead and the grief stricken.” – Anita Anand ([04:07])
• Duleep Singh’s tragic ‘gift’:
  • “You promised that you were my friend. But you’ve taken everything from me. This isn’t right, this isn’t justice and I’ll sue you in the courts.” – (Paraphrasing Duleep Singh, [19:09])
• On visitor reactions at the Tower:
  • “The swearing that would occur in front of the glass...thieves, thieves, thieves. This is ours. How dare they.” – Anita Anand ([22:18])
• Satirical jab at British exhibition tactics:
  • “The only thing that achieved was it taught many brown people how to moonwalk.” – Anita Anand ([22:51])
• Colonial apologia and the British Museum:
  • “If you say yes to one, you suddenly find the British Museum would be empty.” – David Cameron (quoted) ([26:36])

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Key Timestamps

• 00:32–02:49: Why the Koh-i-Noor is back in the news; the legend of the curse.
• 04:07–11:00: The real historical path and violence associated with the diamond; formation of myths.
• 12:20–16:19: The Sikh period, Ranjit Singh’s stroke, contestations over disposal.
• 16:57–18:37: British conquest, the fate of Duleep Singh and his mother.
• 19:45–22:14: British transportation, recutting, Queen Victoria’s anxiety.
• 22:18–23:02: Emotional modern reactions at the Tower of London.
• 23:43–26:42: Present-day claimants, arguments on colonial loot, political defense of retention.
• 25:44–26:19: The diamond as symbol of colonial trauma.

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Conclusion

This episode retells the gripping story of the Koh-i-Noor, laying bare its complex mythos, traumatic legacy, and the impossibility of a simple return. Dalrymple and Anand use the diamond’s history as a lens for the broader debate about reparations, memory, and what “giving back” can or should mean in the post-colonial world.

The final message: the Koh-i-Noor’s power is not just in the jewel but what it has come to represent—a centuries-old wound, refracted through myth, misfortune, and contested histories.

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Transcript

[A]

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[B]

well, hello and welcome to Empire, a special emergency empire from me, Anita Arnest,

[A]

and me, William Drimple. We don't often get to do emergency pods, unlike our colleagues in Karen affairs, but suddenly colonialism is all the rage.

[B]

Comes a knocking at our door. It certainly does it. I mean, it's in the headlines. Let me. Let me tell you why we've suddenly pressed the plunger and exploded this particular emergency podcast. Headlines like this. Mamdani gives King Charles a royal brush back over a crown jewel swiped from India. There's another headline over here. Mamdani's advice to royals, give the priceless diamond back to India. New York Times. We got another one here. New York City. Zoran Mandani says he will ask King Charles to return Koh I Noor diamond to India. The Independent and the Telegraph and the BBC. Look, it's back.

[A]

Bloody diamond suddenly. So Empire has turned into a current affairs program.

[B]

This is an opportunity for us to give you a little bit of the background of this diamond and why. I think it's fair to say, Willi, that the King and Queen would really rather this hadn't come up again because they have done their best to pour sand, water and foam over the inferno. This diamond creation.

[A]

We have been led to believe that they may, or someone close to them may have read this book.

[B]

Sources close to the palace might have suggested that the work that you have done has meant that nobody wanted to wear it during the coronation.

[A]

During the coronation. Yep.

[B]

And sure enough, a copy did find

[A]

its way to the palace and was read.

[B]

Well, I mean, sources close to the palace would suggest that is the case. Look, the point is the curse in a nutshell. No man is ever going to be worthy to wear this diamond. It destroys all who come into contact. Only a woman who can wear this. And so through the British royal family, anyway, from the time of Queen Victoria, it has been basically chucked at the Queen Consort. Because if there's a curse, you can deal with it. Until Queen Camilla, who said, I'm not doing that. I'm not wearing it. And so it wasn't worn during the latest coronation. But why is there a curse now? That's what we need to remind you in this emergency podcast, Willy.

[A]

Well, one element of the story begins. The story of the curse begins I think with something called the Simantica gem, which is the mythical gem in the Bhagavad Puran, part of the Hindu scriptures, which causes havoc in its wake. It kind of frames Krishna. Krishna at one point is blamed for various killings and thefts associated with this gem. And he eventually has to go into the desert. Not into the desert, he has to go into the jungle to clear his name. And there is this old tradition in Indian gemology that diamonds are cursed, that there are gems which are lucky, but diamonds are not among them. And diamonds in fact can be, if flawed and if not completely perfect, they can bring incredible bad luck to people. So there's an ancient Indian belief system behind this story. But it has to be said that this gem has left in reality, in history an astonishing sort of torrent of blood in its wake.

[B]

I mean, there are piles of bodies. Wherever this rock has rolled, it has rolled over the dead and the grief stricken. So, you know, from that moment where it's conflated with the mythical Cymantica Willi, when does it first pops up as part of the Peacock Throne? Doesn't it exactly tell us why somebody

[A]

writes about, in a sense, there's two different versions of the story. There is the. There's the legend of the Koh I Noor, which a lot of which was put together by one man. And I actually ended up finding the document, the very first document written in English by a colonial official called Theo Metcalfe, who was interested in gems and in fact got in trouble later for purloining them. During the aftermath of 1857, during the aftermath of the Indian Mutiny, he got into trouble for pocketing gems of various Hindu dignitaries and things and getting sacred.

[B]

Can we also add the fact that he was also pretty much a liar, liar, pants on fire. I mean, when he didn't know a thing, he made up shit he did and passed it up. The Jain. Yeah.

[A]

Prior to 1857, he was commissioned, when this diamond first went into British hand to go to the Red Fort, which was then in the 1840s, still operational, with Bahad Al Shah Zafa, the last mogul still in place, and go and talk to the old women in the harem. So he put together this document, which is the source of many of the legends and the legendary history of the Koh I. Nor goes that it was originally part of the. It was mined in Golconda, which is near Hyderabad, that it was part of the regalia of the Hindu kings called the Kakatiyas, who were from that part of the world that it was looted by the Sultans of Delhi, who lost it eventually to Babur the first Mogul, who then lost it to the Persians. It then came back again, reunited with the Mughal court. There's this kind of long saga. In reality, there is no completely certain verified mention of this stone, and certainly none under the name Koh I Noor before it is stolen in 1739 by Nadeshar. And again, we found the first extant reference in a previously untranslated Persian biography of Nader Shah telling the story of the looting of Delhi. And that uses the word for the first time, Koh I Noor. So it's actually quite late. It's 1750, the first completely verifiable reference to this. But it obviously did have a history before then, so.

[B]

Yeah, but also. But it was conflated with other things. So some people thought, you know, they might have been describing the Orlov diamond and calling it the Koh I Noor or some other gem and calling it the Koh I Noor. But this one is actually called Kohinoor. Now, just to remind you, Kohinoor means Mountain of light. That is the translation of the word in Persian. And so that first time where it's written down by Mavi as Kohinoor, and he describes it as being on top of the Peacock throne. Now, the Peacock throne is not, as you might imagine it, a large chair replete with gems and diamonds. It's more an ice cream kiosk of an edifice. I mean, it is the most blingy thing you've ever seen. It's encrusted in all of the best jewels. It is replete with the very best gems that the Moguls have. And Mahravie talks about these peacocks at the top of the kiosk at the top of the throne. And one of its heads is the Mountain of Light, the diamond of one of the peacocks. But it wasn't Willi. The diamonds that, you know, we put in rings these days, it looked very different then. Can you sort of describe what it would have looked like in that era?

[A]

First of all, before the discovery of the New World mines in Brazil, first of all, then ultimately South Africa, where the biggest diamonds today come from. India was the source of all the diamonds in the world. It had a monopoly and it was one of India's great exports. I mean, we think that the pyramids were probably cut using Indian diamond tipped tools. And there was this rich tradition of knowledge about gems in India, but there were also a large number of Very big diamonds floating around in India. We know, for example, that the great Hindu kingdom of Vijayanagara had an extraordinary collection of enormous diamonds. And these must be diamonds that in all likelihood exist today and have names like the Hope diamond or the Orlov diamond you mentioned, or the Koh I Noor. But very difficult in retrospect to work out which of these diamonds is which and which one went in which direction. This diamond, in the Mughal tradition was not cut like a modern Ratna's ring, you know, with very sort of symmetrical cut. It was left as our medieval ancestors liked their diamonds, as a cabochon. And the Kono has this weird shape. It looks a bit like Arthur's seat with an almost lump on the top of the tail. And in this form, it was used as the eye of the peacock in the Koh I Noor. And it was taken off by Nadesha from the Mughals to Herat, where Nader Shah kept all his winnings from Delhi. Enormous crates full of diamonds and all the greatest riches that the Mughals themselves have plundered from all over India.

[B]

But when he got his hands on the Kohman, or Diamond Willie, did it make him happy? Was he a happy man? Having claimed this, almost no one in

[A]

this story is happy and anything point after they've got the Koh I Noor and Nader Shah was eventually hacked to death by all his cousins and brothers and family after he went a bit mad in the aftermath of catching the Koh I Noor. So Nareshar gets hacked apart. His harem promised this diamond to his bodyguard if they will keep them alive during the night of this of chaos and bloodshed. And the bodyguard, one of whom is called Amishah Durrani, then run off with it and eventually Amish Al Duran, who becomes the first king of Afghanistan, basically uses the Koh I Noor as collateral to found the modern state of Afghanistan. It is his central investment with which he then goes to war. And he leads a life of plunder and mayhem. But he does not die happy either because his face gets eaten up by a kind of dripping malignant tumor. And people describe him coating half his face like RoboCop in metal. But the suppuration continues below the metal and bits of maggots drop out even as they eat up his face. It's a horrible, horrible story that's so bad. So later he eventually dies. Well, he might give them maggots and gnawing away at him for years. And it passes down through his son and grandson, Shah Shuja or Mulk. Gets it. His brother has it first and is blinded. He hides it in a crack in a prison cell where he's being incarcerated. Soon after being blinded with a red hot needle, the diamond disappears for a while, but it turns up. A local mullah finds it where it's been hidden and uses it as a paperweight on his desk. He doesn't know what it is. So for a while, the Koh I Noor, the most priceless jewel in the world, is being used just as a provincial mullus paperweight, which is a very nice detail I found in a Afghan chronicle. Shah Shuja, his brother gets hold of it and he is, according to the Afghan chronicles, tortured by the king of the Sikhs, Ranjit Singh, to release it to him. This is a detail that the proud, patriotic Sikhs strongly.

[B]

They don't like it.

[A]

They don't like the story at all, but it's that they don't like it. They say it didn't happen in the Afghan accounts. And so I'm sticking to that story.

[B]

So at this point, and there is, as Willi quite rightly says, a huge to do about which is the true story. The Sikhs insist that Ranjit Singh was awarded the Koh I Noor for his help in freeing Shashuja. But the Afghans say, no, no, no. He tortured the son in front of the father and therefore tortured him and got him to give up this diamond that nobody wanted to part with. Why didn't they want to part with it? Because of the mythology around it. So the wife of Shashuja, the Rafa begum, had said, if you throw a rock into the air and you throw one to the left and you throw one to the right and you FL fill it with all of the gold and jewels, that is what the Koh I Noor is worth. So that you know, that is the kind of mythology around this diamond. So it goes to Ranjit Singh. Now, so far, not so good for anybody who's owned it. You know, they've died horribly and before their time. But what happens with Ranjit Singh is he wears it on his arm every day, not in any kind of like, kiosk or throne. He's going to wear it as if he's kind of thumbing his nose at all powers temporal and supernatural. Come get me if you think you're hard enough. And he gets away with it until he has a catastrophic stroke as an old, grey, wizened man and he's lying on his deathbed and then there's a bit of a confusion because he can't speak.

[A]

It plays out to this day even today on my Twitter. Rival parties have been claiming it says, the Sikhs have been saying it's theirs, while people in Orissa have been saying it's theirs. Why would the people in Orissa think they have a right to a Danita?

[B]

Well, Willy, they think that because there was a story that he was surrounded by Hindu pundits, and one of them said, wouldn't you like this to go to a statue of a God in Orissa? That would be very good for your karma. And Ranjit Singh, who couldn't speak at that time, signaled, yes, that is what I want. Whereas others in his court said, what are you talking about? He couldn't speak, let alone indicate that he wanted this gem to go to a temple in Orissa. So that's one level of irritation.

[A]

So this is the treasurer, who's called Beli Misa.

[B]

Beliram. So Misir Belliram.

[A]

That's right.

[B]

Yeah. So Misr Belliram is the man. He's a lowly guy, but all he has to do is look after the treasury.

[A]

And he hides it after Anderson died to stop it going to Arissa. See, I'm not a Sikh or a Punjabi, so I think I'm more neutral about this than you. And I'd say that the actual claim of Orissa, which is actually quite a good one, and that he did go to the. To Juggernaut temple.

[B]

Just a minute. I mean, I am a Punjabi, but also, I understand about catastrophic strokes. So if you have a catastrophic stroke, Mr. I am with the Erisids, how on earth are you going to signal that this is what you want to happen?

[A]

Because it's written in your will. Before you had a stroke.

[B]

It is. That's not what happened at all.

[A]

The chronicles say.

[B]

Anyway, look, so this is why there's a big row even to this day about what happens.

[A]

Exactly.

[B]

Even on this podcast. Okay. But what happens on his deathbed is his treasurer hides it so that no one can go and pinch it and give it to a God in Orissa, or a member of the family can just hawk it off because there are also rival claims among the family. You know, this is a man.

[A]

Belly Ram thinks it belongs not to Ranjit Singh, but to the state.

[B]

But to the state.

[A]

And so he thinks he hasn't got the right to give it off. That's what I think the story is. That's my version. That he hides it.

[B]

It's not your version.

[A]

Well, that's what I'm saying.

[B]

It is what Mr. Belliram decided because the Hindi priest come over to my

[A]

side of the story there.

[B]

No, I haven't. The Hindu priest is saying, it belongs to us. He's saying, how do you know? He has had a catastrophic stroke. And Mr. Belliwan says, shut up, the lot of you. Poof. You can't find it anymore. I think. Anyway, so what happens is then there is a huge power vacuum in the Sikh kingdom after Ranjit Singh died. And I wrote go into it because it takes a very long time, but we have covered this.

[A]

The kind of roulette wheel of death or something.

[B]

Death.

[A]

You go through about 20 casualties in the 20 fatalities in about 10 minutes.

[B]

Poison, gouge, drop buildings on each other. I mean, they just basically throttle each other. Literally all those things. Shoot each other by accident, shoot each other on purpose, shoot each other's children. I mean, it's. It's hideous, okay? The whole thing is hideous until the last man standing is not a man at all, but he's this tiny little boy, the youngest, the man who was never meant to be king. Duleep Singh. A little boy who is the last child of Ranjit Singh and his mother, Jind Kaur, who is a lowly woman in comparison to the rest of the world.

[A]

Daughter. The kennel.

[B]

Kennel keeper's daughter. Yes, that's right. So look, she is alive. He is alive. He on the. His tiny little chubby arm is got this huge diamond which we should say actually is the size and heft of a hen's egg. That's how big this diamond is. But as soon as Ranjit Singh dies and everyone else in his family has murdered each other, who notices? The British notice because they've had their eye on the north for a very long time. It's a strategic gem in itself because, you know, here it is between Afghanistan, the Great Game, the Russians. The location of it is. Is tantalizing. And while Ranjit Singh was alive because his army was so strong and he was so much in control, they could not get their hands on it. Now there is an absolute power vacuum. A mother, a woman is in charge in the form of little Maharaja Duleep Singh's mother as the regent and a tiny boy, they then decide to attack. There are two Anglo Sikh wars now, again, too much to go into right now, but it is absolutely the contention of the Sikhs that the Sikh Empire was defeated because of skulduggery. Because, you know, these Brits who came as friends, who promised to be friends and came and signed treaties were in

[A]

fact all the time they go and invade the Punjab and take this little

[B]

boy, we'll take the little boy and take the mother away from the boy and lock her in a tower and surround the little boy with men in shiny epaulettes who don't even speak the same language.

[A]

Last summer I was staying with my brother in Scotland and it turns out that the receipt for the Koh I Noor was in the next door fancy house. 10 minutes walk or about half an hour.

[B]

John Logan's receipt. I have seen a copy of it, but you've seen the actual thing over

[A]

to Dalhousie and it's sitting still in the country house in East Lothian.

[B]

You can't actually say Dalhousie without saying boo. A huge villain of this piece. Boo. Anyway, so look, the diamonds is then transferred. This little boy is forced to sign this document which he will spend the rest of his life challenging, saying, you know what? I was not in the age of majority. How can this be a legal document? You promised that you were my friend. But you've taken everything this to Queen Victoria. You've taken everything from me. This isn't right, this isn't justice and I'll sue you in the courts. And he tries. Doesn't get him very far. But anyway, the diamond is then rushed out of the country to Queen Victoria by this man, Dalhousie, who thinks what a coup it will be for me to lay the great mythical mountain of light at the feet of the Empress of India.

[A]

It is no easy thing to get it out of the country. Then there's a whole new story. You have to read the book or listen to the whole four part podcast that we did at the beginning.

[B]

I mean, it basically almost sinks a ship and causes cholera, despair, wipes out on the voyage over. Well, yeah, I mean, and then when it, as soon as it gets in, people are beaten up. The Queen, when she was the Queen, is beaten up, Victoria is. Peel gets crushed, the former Prime Minister gets crushed under his horse and the Queen, Queen Victoria is handed the diamond with a massive shiner of a black eye because she's been attacked just the day before. As soon as it enters British territorial waters. Exactly right. But look, this is the last bit of the story because we are galloping, galloping through this to tell you why this is so contentious and why Mamdani says give it back and then we'll come to. Who do you give it back to? So Queen Victoria is worried about the diamond. She's worried about the curse. She's also worried about the legality of how this diamond has come to her. Albert's got a brilliant idea. He's going to recut it. So it's going to be the same diamond, look different, born anew in British sunlight, it's going to shine like the diamonds that we have in Europe. But it is catastrophic. After its dismal appearance at the Great Exhibition, even though Albert is told again and again, do not try and do this to the diamond, recut this diamond, it has a flaw at its heart. It will go up in smoke. Don't do it. He insists on doing it. And two thirds of the mass of this diamond disappears. Now, not disappears as in you've got two sizable diamonds just disintegrates. We don't know what's happened to the rest of the diamond. But then what you're left with is what Queen Victoria wore in her crown. And Queen Victoria, she had two very clever things designed for it. And I. I was so delighted to find the designs for these things. A clasp that you could use it as a brooch and another that will then sort of grip it in a crown in a coronet. And what happens is, she does wear it, but she is the last monarch to wear it because of this idea of the curse. And so after her, no male monarch ever wore the diamond. It only goes to the queen consorts to wear. The last time I think it was seen in public was in the crown of the Queen Mother during her funeral, when it was placed on top of the coffin and people filed past. It is in the Tower of London. You can see it if you want to see it there.

[A]

Normally, when a queen tell the story. I love the story about your first sight of it.

[B]

Oh, well, I. So I learned all my best swear words at the Tower of London, because when. When you used to go, when anyone used to come over to visit, you'd be. You'd take them because they'd want to see the koh I noor and the swearing that would occur in front of the glass from your Indians, your Pakistanis, your Afghans and many, many more saying, thieves, thieves, thieves. This is ours. You know, how dare they.

[A]

They're having arguments with each other. So what they did eventually was they set up a conveyor belt next to the glass case.

[B]

The only thing that achieved was it taught many brown people how to moonwalk. That is literally all that was achieved by the idea.

[A]

They were only allowed to see it for a second and they'd be sort of sped past it.

[B]

They did not understand that uncles and a Aunties are very good at moonwalking and swearing at the same time. So that is what happened anyway. So what happens now is that you've got this diamond that should have been recast in Queen Camilla's crown or coronet for the coronation, but she broke with tradition, a tradition that stretches as far back as the Koh I Nod's history in Britain. Reading a certain book, sources close to the palace lead us to believe. Anywho. So that's where we are now. So Mamdani went, so let's talk about what's happening today. So Mamdani so saying, give it back to India now. It is not necessarily as straightforward as he's suggesting it isn't.

[A]

And you only have to actually look online. I posted about an hour ago the New York Times article which quotes both of us about the Kohidor. And already there are about 40 different people fighting over who owns it. There's some from Orissa, some from the Punjab, but not just Indians, Bangladeshis, Pakistanis, who put in the first legal claim after independence, 1976. First claim, Afghans, the Taliban and Iran. And that's just for starters. So it's going to be no easy thing. It's rather like Solomon's baby or something, you know, the lady's baby and Solomon saying, divided.

[B]

You can't cut this thing again. I mean, it's gone through enough, hasn't suffered enough. But the thing is that's interesting is that it opens up once again and this is why it's such an important thing. And Wamdani's riding, you know, this, this huge tidal wave of ink and newspaper copy. Is it opens up the who aspect of, you know, who does colonial loot belong to? Was it taken fairly? Because there's a whole lot of nonsense that came up about the diamond was given as a grateful gift by the Indians. No, it never was. It was given by Ranjit Singh. He was long dead. That's not possible. Unless he did it by Ouija board. That was something that actually was an official documentation. Can't be. Even the Indians were confused about how it ended up in Britain for a while. And you had the Attorney General at one time talking a load of nonsense

[A]

about it when he never did.

[B]

Yeah, he never did. So. So look, it opens up that conversation, Willy, again. And is it going to. I mean, is it ever going to go anywhere, do you think? I mean, what's your feeling about this?

[A]

It's interesting in two ways. It. It this small diamond. Now, it used to be the size of a Hen's egg. It's now, you know, not even that. It's the size of a. I don't know, kind of how. What is it the size of these days? A sort of.

[B]

It's a.

[A]

It's a quail's egg.

[B]

Quail's egg. Oh, you're such a man of the people.

[A]

A large, large quail egg.

[B]

Well done, you. I was thinking one of those chocolate coins, but no, a quail's egg. Sure, why not? Let's do it.

[A]

So it's not, it's not that big, but this little diamond has within it the power of bringing up all the pain of colonialism. And people in India and South Asia associate this, this, this one object with everything that was taken from them. And so it's a hugely emotional question. Trouble is that not only the different peoples of South Asia, but also quite a lot of people from Central Asia and Iran and the Middle east also claim it. So I think it effectively allows the British to probably do their old divide and rule one, you know, and they

[B]

do say it, they say, who do we give it back to, even if we wanted to? I mean, the one definitive comment was from David Cameron, who said, no, I'm sorry, we can't. I'm afraid to say it's going to have to stay put because if you say yes to one, you suddenly find

[A]

British Museum would be empty, which is quite true because the museum is full of other colonial loot.

[B]

So.

[A]

So this was the story which first brought us together, began the whole this, this, this book, and then began the Empire podcast, because it does represent so much more than itself. So, anyway, that's what we thought it was worth doing. Our first ever emergency pod.

[B]

Isn't that lovely? It's like our anniversary. Some people get flowers, we get an

[A]

emergency pod, we get a story of mudshed, Gore, division and disorder.

[B]

Yeah, I think it's absolutely as it should be. Anyway, till the next time we meet, it's goodbye from me, Anita Anand, and

[A]

goodbye from me, William Duranpole.

[C]

It is out of control in the White House right now.

[D]

Welcome to the Rest is politics, Us. I'm Katie.

[C]

I'm Anthony Scaramucci, who is the worst politician in Washington right now.

[D]

They don't know how to manage Donald Trump.

[C]

I talked to the people that organized the abduction. I'm telling you why they did it.

[D]

The White House is in a bind.

[C]

Anthony, here's what I would say to

[D]

you about the chaos is the strategy,

[C]

it should not have happened and it is a violation of international law.

[D]

Is he losing control of the party.

[C]

I survived 11 days in Trump's White House. I know the SOB.

[D]

I've been covering politics in Washington for almost 30 years. Twice a week, we break down what's really going on in Trump's White House.

[C]

The big issue for the United States is going to be we were once seen as a benevolent superpower, and now we're seen as an aggressor.

[D]

You know, he can lie about a lot of things, but he can't lie about what people are feeling about the economy.

[C]

If you really want to understand what's going on in Trump's mind, just search. The rest is politics, us, wherever you get your podcast.