The Great Fire of London

Summary

Episode Summary: "The Great Fire of London"

Podcast Information:

• Title: Empire
• Hosts: William Durand and Anita Anand
• Episode: The Great Fire of London
• Release Date: July 24, 2025
• Description: Hosts delve into the historical intricacies of empires, featuring discussions with historians to explore pivotal events that shaped world history.

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Introduction to the Episode

In the episode titled "The Great Fire of London," hosts William Durand and Anita Anand pivot slightly to spotlight another esteemed Goalhanger podcast, "Journey Through Time," hosted by historians David Olusoga and Sarah Church. This special feature focuses on the Great Fire of London, unraveling the event through a social history lens rather than traditional political narratives.

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Discussion with David Olusoga

William Durand opens the conversation with a light-hearted remark about his own (humorous) creation of a Tudor house engulfed in flames, setting a relatable tone before delving into the main topic.

David Olusoga emphasizes the depth and lesser-known aspects of the Great Fire. He states:

"There's so much that we know about it, but actually so much that we don't. And what we try to do in Journey Through Time is paint a picture of what it was like to actually live through those events."
[02:07]

Olusoga critiques the traditional teaching of history, which often centers on elites and decision-makers, advocating instead for a ground-up approach that highlights the experiences of ordinary people. He shares compelling insights into the desperate measures of Londoners trying to escape the relentless fire:

"People are recorded as having moved their most precious possessions 4, 5, 6 times as this fire spread and spread and spread."
[03:03]

Blame and Scapegoating During the Fire

The conversation shifts to the aftermath of the fire, particularly the scapegoating that ensued. Anita Anand raises questions about who was blamed and the nature of the fire's ignition.

David Olusoga reveals a darker side of human behavior during crises:

"The people who get blamed are entirely innocent and those who should be held to account get away scot free. Any foreigners with a foreign accent, particularly French or Dutch, were attacked in the streets."
[03:36]

He draws parallels to contemporary issues, highlighting the recurring pattern of xenophobia in the face of disaster.

Historical Records and Judicial Injustice

William Durand inquires about the historical records that shed light on the events and public sentiment during the fire.

David Olusoga discusses the available documentation, including diaries and official records, and details a significant court case:

"A man called Robert Hubert, a young Frenchman suffering from mental illness, confessed to starting the fire for reasons no one understands. Despite evidence proving he wasn't in London at the time, he was convicted and hanged."
[04:56]

This case serves as an example of judicial injustice and the societal urge to find a scapegoat amidst chaos.

Connection to Contemporary Society

The hosts draw connections between the historical events and modern societal behaviors. William Durand remarks on the timeless nature of such human actions:

"These behaviors, these ebbs and flows are so familiar."
[05:44]

David Olusoga concurs, emphasizing the importance of understanding historical contexts to appreciate present-day societal patterns.

Highlighting "Journey Through Time" and Its Hosts

Anita Anand extols the virtues of the "Journey Through Time" podcast, praising both David Olusoga and Sarah Church for their exceptional communication skills and depth of knowledge.

David Olusoga and Sarah Church are lauded for their ability to make history accessible and engaging, with specific mention of their episodes on topics like the National Rifle Association's history.

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Excerpts from "Journey Through Time": The Great Fire of London

The episode features a curated clip from "Journey Through Time," providing listeners with a vivid recounting of the Great Fire through the eyes of Samuel Pepys, a notable diarist of the era.

Samuel Pepys narrates his initial underestimation of the fire:

"He decides the fire is not serious enough for him to really worry about. So he goes back to bed."
[09:14]

As the situation escalates, Pepys records the rapid spread of the fire:

"Between 3am and 7am, this fire has enormously expanded. And Pepys now realizes that this is not just another house fire."
[10:20]

Sarah Church provides context to Pepys' diary entries, highlighting his active involvement and the transformation of his personal accounts into a dramatic historical record.

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Conclusion and Takeaways

The episode effectively bridges the past and present, illustrating how events like the Great Fire of London continue to resonate today. By focusing on personal narratives and societal reactions, "The Great Fire of London" offers a nuanced understanding of history's impact on modern society. Listeners are encouraged to explore "Journey Through Time" for a deeper dive into such pivotal moments.

Notable Quotes:

• David Olusoga: "The people who get blamed are entirely innocent and those who should be held to account get away scot free." [03:36]
• Samuel Pepys: "He calls it an infinite great fire." [11:44]

For More: To experience this insightful exploration of the Great Fire of London, listen to "Journey Through Time" on your preferred podcast platform.

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Join the Empire Club: Gain exclusive access to bonus content, miniseries, ad-free listening, and more by becoming a member at empirepoduk.com.

For additional Goalhanger Podcasts, visit www.goalhanger.com.

Transcript

[Anita Anand]

If you want access to bonus episodes, reading lists for every series of Empire, a chat community, discounts for all the books mentioned in the week's podcast ad, free listening and a weekly newsletter, sign up to empire [e-mail].

[William Durand]

Hello and welcome to Empire, Kind kinda with me, Anita Anand and me, William Durand. Yeah, I mean we are definitely us, but this is a little bit special at the top of the program because we're going to tell you about another goal hanger podcast, Journey Through Time, which is hosted by historians David Olashoga and Sarah Church. Well, both very good friends and they're brilliant. And it tells the story of, well, not a story really. It's history from the bottom up, if I can put it that way. An attempt to understand pivotal moments through the eyes of who lived through them. And David's here with us to discuss the podcast and the new series on the Great Fire of London. Can I tell you something, David? I, with these hands and a small child and some Pritt stick, have created a Tudor house with flames coming out of the window and upon his insistence, stick figures going, ah, I'm burning. So, you know, I feel like I'm an expert too, frankly. What are we going to learn?

[Anita Anand]

Listeners of podcasts may not realize that Anita actually has a talent for these things. And if you go to her house, you can see that she has transformed, transformed flower pots into sort of boutiques and done amazing murals on her children's walls. The whole range of talents.

[William Durand]

Crafty, David. Crafty is what I am. But anyway, look, tell us, what do we have to look forward to in this podcast?

[David Olusoga]

So we're going to tell the story.

[Samuel Pepys]

Of the Great Fire.

[David Olusoga]

And as you said, and as everybody who went to school in the UK knows, this is a story that we're taught. It's absolutely essential part of history at school. It's one of the first things my daughter learned and came.

[Anita Anand]

Pudding Lane. Isn't that where it all started? I remember that from my eight year old history classes.

[David Olusoga]

Exactly. There's so much that we know about it, but actually so much that we don't. And what we try to do in Journey Through Time is paint a picture of what it was like to actually live through those events. So much of history is taught through palaces and parliaments. What it was like to be the decision makers rather than what it was like to actually be there on the ground going through this. And what you get if you look at the Great Fire through the social history lens is a story of people's Sort of desperation. The thing which most amazes me is that people would spend a day fighting the fire, then they would be exhausted, they'd go to bed and wake up and London would still be on fire. People would move their possessions to the next street and then that would catch fire. Then they would move it again further away. People are recorded as having moved their Most precious possessions 4, 5, 6 times as this fire spread and spread and spread.

[William Durand]

I've always wondered actually, whatever happened to the baker or the baker's boy or whoever got the blame for all of this?

[Anita Anand]

And what was the pudding that set this thing alight? Was it a brandy, a flaming brandy or what was it?

[William Durand]

But there's sort of more than that. Was that anger as well as sort of, you know, exhaustion? You're fighting a fire, but you also want somebody to blame at the time. Are there records of what people were saying and thinking at the time?

[Samuel Pepys]

There's a lot of records.

[David Olusoga]

And you will not be surprised to hear that as so often in history, the people who get blamed are entirely innocent and those who should be held to account get away scot free.

[Anita Anand]

You don't say, David.

[David Olusoga]

Yeah, the banker survives, has a normal career, lives out the rest of his life, is never blamed for what had happened. And the people who are blamed are the foreigners. Anybody with a foreign accent, particularly anybody French or Dutch. Britain is at war with France and the Netherlands. They are attacked in the streets. Anybody who's got a foreign sounding name or a foreign accent.

[Anita Anand]

That sounds oddly familiar.

[David Olusoga]

It is strange. I know the past is another country. Sometimes it's very like the one we live in.

[William Durand]

Wow. Yeah. That is going to be mind blowing to a lot of people because as you say, this is an inculcation from youth, especially in this country. If you're listening, in Britain, it is the story that we grow up with. So when you talk about records, I mean, are there newspapers? I mean, what are the official records that you have or that you can dig into and find out?

[David Olusoga]

Well, anybody who was writing a diary and diaries were new and fashionable at the time, of course, Pepys. But also there were other people who were recording their events and there's lots of official documentation. Depressingly, there are accounts of exactly the violence I was talking about. And there is a court case which is really not well remembered. A man called Robert Hubert, who was a young Frenchman who was almost certainly suffering from some form of mental illness, who confessed to the fire, confessed to having started it, for reasons that nobody understands.

[Anita Anand]

Presumably he was tortured. That's normally why people confess to that period, isn't it?

[David Olusoga]

It's stranger and darker than that. It was, as some people at the time suspected, an attempt at what we might call judicial suicide. He was said by one of the men in his court to have been weary of this life. He confessed. And even though the evidence proving he wasn't in London at the time, he couldn't possibly have started the fire mounted. He was convicted and he was hanged. So we followed that court case as well as the details of the fire.

[William Durand]

Wow. I mean, that's what they call an American series, You know, Death by Cop is what they like to call it. I mean, that's again, something that you think is a rather contagious contemporary thing. And that's what I love about, you know, these stories that you tell is people are people, are people, no matter what era they're in. These sort of behaviors, these ebbs and flows are so familiar.

[David Olusoga]

That's right. And I think it's really exciting to try to get into people's minds. Obviously, we're not psychologists or historians. I do think we have, as historians the right to speculate about how people reacted to the moments they were in, how the societies they've been brought up with shaped their thinking.

[Anita Anand]

We should also tell our listeners that David and Sarah are two of the greatest communicators of our time. David I'm sure everyone is familiar with from his amazing documentaries on BBC. I can't think of anyone I've actually sent more email fan letters to than David over the years. Particularly that series you did on Union, I thought was one of the greatest things I've ever seen on British television.

[David Olusoga]

Oh, you were very kind about that. Thank you very much.

[Anita Anand]

But Sarah may be less well known to listeners of Empire and she is fabulous. We've had her several times at the Jaipur Literature Festival. She's a brilliant speaker. And the combination of the two of them together is one of the great treats of the podcasting world.

[David Olusoga]

Yeah, I just have to keep up with Sarah's energy.

[William Durand]

I mean, she is just powered by some kind of nuclear fission or something. I've never met anyone like it. There is no off switch, David, no off switch at all. And she. But she knows so much. I mean, she's kind of my go to person when I need some historical context for what's going on in America. And she'll just rifle through at lightning speed, the filing cabinet in her brain and pull out all of these extraordinary things you've never heard of. She's wonderful.

[David Olusoga]

We've just Done two episodes on the history, the rather strange history of the national rifle association, the NRA, which began in the 1870s.

[Anita Anand]

What a brilliant subject.

[David Olusoga]

Very few people know this. It was modelled on the British National Rifle association, which still exists. Has its little museum in Bisley, is there, built around the idea of gun safety, as was the American nra. So Sarah, with that energy you describe, tells the story of how this gun safety organization became the gun rights movement that it is today.

[William Durand]

Well, I mean, there's so much in your treasure trove already. And the Great Fire of London again, I can't wait to listen to this because it's. Again, those are my favorite stories. The ones that you think, you know, that sort of holiday chalet you think you've lived in, and it's in all the furniture is not where you supposed it would be. It is all different. So, I mean, I'm really looking forward to it.

[Anita Anand]

So thank you very much, David. Now, as a treat for listeners, you've got a clip from this week's Journey Through Time.

[Samuel Pepys]

Well, the next report we have of the fire is from probably about an hour later, 3am and this is when it comes to the attention of the great diarist, Samuel Pepys. Now we should explain Pepys, who is famous for his diary, but at the time, his job was he worked at the Navy Board, he was a member of Parliament, he was a sort of member of the elite, a supporter of the Stuart royal family.

[Sarah Church]

But you mentioned his diary and of course, that is why he's so famous today. He kept this incredibly detailed daily account all the way through the 1660s of what life was like. So it's a complete social history gold mine. And he writes about everything from the prices of food to gossip to who he saw at the theater to what.

[Samuel Pepys]

Everybody'S wearing and his complicated love life.

[Sarah Church]

Well, you could call it a love life. I was not gonna let him. Let. I'm very fond of Samuel Pepys. You're right. I was not gonna let him get away with that. We would call him handsy at a minimum.

[Samuel Pepys]

Even during the fire?

[Sarah Church]

Oh, yeah, even during the fire. Everything's an opportunity for Samuel Pepys. So, I mean, he records in his diary groping maids and assaulting shop girls and molesting his friends, wives. So, I mean. And this is what he records.

[Samuel Pepys]

So in between the molestations, he describes the politics of Restoration Britain. Pepys, in his diary, gives us this amazing account of the fire. But he's not just a witness. He's not just someone who's writing down what happens? He's involved.

[Sarah Church]

That's what makes, I think, this moment in his diary so interesting and so exciting because. Yeah, because often he's just observing, right? But here he's actually the protagonist, or not the protagonist, but he's a protagonist. And he's telling the story of the ways in which he was actually very actively involved in the fire. So suddenly, his funny, gossipy diary just leaps to life in the catastrophe.

[Samuel Pepys]

And it becomes tragic and it becomes dramatic and it becomes very, very visual in the way he describes this calamity. At 3am, he's woken up. He underestimates the fire. His maid, Jane Birch, wakes him up to say there is a great fire in the city. Pepys goes to a window and for the first time, he sees the fire. Now, his house is pretty close to Pudding Lane. He's on a place called Seething Lane. But he decides the fire is not serious enough for him to really worry about. So he goes back to bed.

[Sarah Church]

Not for the last time in this story that someone's gonna go back to bed.

[Samuel Pepys]

One of the really amazing things about his diary over these these few days is it gives us something like a timeline. Four hours later, he's woken up again by the same maid, Jane Birch, who tells him that she hears that above, 300 houses have been burnt down tonight by fire. That's what Pepys writes in his diary. So between 3am and 7am, this fire has enormously expanded. And Pepys now realizes that this is not just another house fire.

[Sarah Church]

Well, while he was snoozing, his maid was on the job actually, you know, finding out what was happening. And, you know, other people are doing the work and monitoring, but I'm having a little bit of fun at Pepys expense. But now he actually starts to rise to the occasion.

[Samuel Pepys]

We think the maids are up late because Pepys had a dinner party planned for that evening. So they were up getting ready for the dinner party, which allowed them to be awake, to witness the fire, to wake him up twice. But at this point, seven o', clock, he knows it's serious. He goes to the Tower of London. He's close to the constable of the Tower and he climbs up and he gets his first view. By this point, the fire started in Pudding Lane has been fanned by the flames of the gale that is blowing over London for six hours. And it's at that moment in his diary that Pepys uses the word that we use people in the 17th century use to describe of the fire.

[David Olusoga]

Great.

[Samuel Pepys]

He calls it an infinite great. Fire.

[Anita Anand]

To hear more. Listen to Journey Through Time. Wherever you get your podcasts.