Empire Podcast Summary

Episode: The Troubles: IRA Secrets Exposed (Ep 4)
Release Date: April 7, 2025
Hosts: William Durimpel & Anita Arnan
Guest: Patrick Radden Keefe

Introduction

In Episode 4 of Empire, hosts William Durimpel and Anita Arnan delve deep into the dark and complex history of the Troubles in Northern Ireland, guided by insights from Patrick Radden Keefe, the author of the acclaimed non-fiction book Say Nothing. The episode focuses on exposing the secrets of the Irish Republican Army (IRA), the personal tragedies of those affected, and the lingering shadows of violence that continue to shape the region’s present.

The Legacy of Gerry Adams and the IRA

The episode opens with a critical examination of Gerry Adams, a central figure in the Northern Ireland peace process. Despite Adams' significant role in steering the peace negotiations, his denial of ever being a member of the IRA remains a contentious point.

Patrick Radden Keefe asserts, “Gerry Adams was in the IRA... [he] was really instrumental in helping lead this political process” (01:43). Keefe challenges Adams' self-description as a political activist, labeling it a "politically convenient lie" that allowed Adams to transition from militant leadership to a respected political figure, thereby facilitating the peace process.

Keefe further explains that Adams’ denial has not led to legal repercussions: “He's been a political leader... he runs for office and wins office, representing people... he hasn't been prosecuted” (01:43). This strategic renunciation of his IRA ties has allowed Adams to gain legitimacy on the international stage but has also left lingering doubts about the transparency of the peace negotiations.

The Disappearance of Jean McConville

A significant portion of the episode is dedicated to the harrowing story of Jean McConville, a mother of ten who was abducted by the IRA in December 1972. Her disappearance remains one of the most poignant and enduring mysteries of the Troubles.

Jean’s children faced unimaginable hardship, grappling with grief and uncertainty. William Durimpel reflects, “They are the most hurt in this story of a whole sort of island of hurt” (07:22). The children clung to hope in the face of despair, even refusing to leave their flat in Divis Flats, Belfast, believing their mother might return despite evidence to the contrary.

Patrick Radden Keefe describes the tactics used by the IRA to manipulate the families, such as sending a postcard from Blackpool to maintain the illusion that Jean was still alive. “This is the cruelty of forced disappearance as a tactic...” (05:52). These psychological manipulations caused prolonged anguish for Jean’s children, including an incident where her son Michael was brutally attacked by IRA-affiliated youth for seeking answers about his mother (07:42).

The Price Sisters and Brendan Hughes: Haunting Legacies

The narrative shifts to focus on Dolores Price and her sister Marian, along with Brendan Hughes, former IRA members struggling with their pasts after the peace process. Their stories highlight the personal toll of the Troubles and the difficulty in reconciling violent histories with the quest for peace.

Patrick Radden Keefe narrates Dolores Price’s transformation post-incarceration, detailing her battle with PTSD, alcoholism, and prescription drug abuse. “She ends up dying… at her burial… are there… giving a series of, to me, very moving speeches as they bury her in the rain” (37:48). Dolores’s marriage to actor Stephen Ray represents a fleeting attempt at normalcy amidst lingering trauma.

Brendan Hughes and Dolores Price struggled with the aftermath of their actions and the lack of a comprehensive truth-reconciliation process. Keefe notes, “They are left feeling both this kind of sense of moral injury... how do we justify the things we did?” (19:21). This internal conflict is exacerbated by Gerry Adams’ rising political stature and his distancing from former IRA members like the Price sisters.

The Belfast Project and Unveiling the Past

In the wake of the Good Friday Agreement, the Belfast Project was established to document the testimonies of paramilitaries from both sides. This initiative aimed to preserve the intricate and often painful histories that were otherwise being overshadowed by the pursuit of peace.

Patrick Radden Keefe explains, “The Belfast Project... would gather interviews, testimony from paramilitaries on both sides” (22:20). Both Dolores Price and Brendan Hughes participated, providing candid accounts of their involvement and the internal dynamics of the IRA.

However, the project faced challenges as some participants, particularly Dolores, could not contain their need to share their stories, leading to unintended disclosures. This breach of confidentiality ultimately resulted in legal pressure, forcing Boston College to confront the ethical implications of the archive.

The Discovery of Jean McConville’s Remains

A poignant climax of the episode recounts the discovery of Jean McConville’s remains in 2003, two decades after her abduction. Contrary to being revealed by the IRA, her body was found serendipitously by a civilian, underscoring the tragic randomness of such disappearances.

Patrick Radden Keefe describes the emotional turmoil experienced by Jean’s children upon identifying her remains: “There's a very heartbreaking moment... When the children went in to see these bones and some old clothes... [they found] the safety pin” (32:08). This discovery brought some closure to the family, yet the scars of uncertainty and loss continue to linger.

Accusations and Controversies Surrounding Jean McConville

The episode addresses the ongoing debate about whether Jean McConville was an informant, a claim that has both fueled speculation and deepened the family's anguish. Keefe maintains, “According to Brendan Hughes, there was a radio found in her apartment... but Nuala O’Lone... said there were no records to indicate that Jean had been an informant” (32:57).

Despite conflicting evidence, Keefe emphasizes that the moral reprehensibility of Jean’s disappearance remains regardless of her alleged informant status, cautioning against justifying violence through such claims.

The Tragic End of Dolores Price

Dolores Price’s life spiraled downward after her incarceration and the peace process’s failure to address past atrocities adequately. Patrick Radden Keefe recounts her tragic overdose: “She ends up dying… by an overdose, found dead by her son” (35:42). Her death symbolizes the unhealed wounds and unresolved traumas that the peace process left behind for many former IRA members and their families.

The Future of Northern Ireland and the Lasting Peace

In the concluding segment, the hosts and Keefe discuss the sustainability of the peace established by the Good Friday Agreement. While acknowledging the fragile nature of this peace, Keefe remains cautiously optimistic: “I don't think the Troubles are coming back... the peace is a very cold peace” (43:25). He notes that societal divisions persist, but the collective memory of the Troubles has diminished in younger generations, reducing the likelihood of renewed conflict.

William Durimpel prompts a reflection on the future: “Are we going to have a peace that lasts these things? Or is peace such a fragile beast...” (35:42). Keefe responds by asserting the resilience of Northern Ireland's current peace, albeit recognizing underlying tensions that must remain addressed to prevent future unrest.

Conclusion

Episode 4 of Empire offers a profound exploration of the lingering impacts of the IRA’s actions during the Troubles, the personal traumas endured by victims and perpetrators alike, and the complex path toward lasting peace in Northern Ireland. Through Patrick Radden Keefe’s meticulous research and the hosts’ insightful discussions, listeners gain a comprehensive understanding of the human cost of political violence and the enduring quest for reconciliation.

Notable Quotes:

• Patrick Radden Keefe on Gerry Adams:
  “He has a kind of virgin birth, right? He kind of becomes this figure who is a political interlocutor...” (01:43)

• William Durimpel on the McConville children:
  “They are the most hurt in this story of a whole sort of island of hurt.” (07:22)

• Patrick Radden Keefe on forced disappearance tactics:
  “This is the cruelty of forced disappearance as a tactic...” (05:52)

• William Durimpel on Michael's attack:
  “He's 11. He's not even a teenager. God, he's just a kid.” (08:16)

• Patrick Radden Keefe on the Price sisters’ moral injury:
  “How do we justify the things we did?” (19:21)

• Patrick Radden Keefe on the Belfast Project:
  “They think that they were the only ones who had experienced this…” (22:20)

• Patrick Radden Keefe on Jean McConville’s remains:
  “The children called it their nappy pin...” (32:08)

• Patrick Radden Keefe on informant accusations:
  “I don't think it in any way diminishes the terrible cruelty of what happened to her.” (35:26)

• Patrick Radden Keefe on Northern Ireland's peace:
  “I don't think the Troubles are coming back... the peace is a very cold peace.” (43:25)

Note: Timestamps are indicated in parentheses for reference to specific parts of the transcript.