225: On And Just Like That: Carrie Golightly (Feat. Loren Kramar & Patrik Sandberg)

Summary

Podcast Summary: Every Outfit Episode 225 – "On And Just Like That: Carrie Golightly"

Introduction

In Episode 225 of the Every Outfit podcast, titled "On And Just Like That: Carrie Golightly," hosts Chelsea Fairless and Lauren Garrone delve deep into the third episode of Season Three of the popular series And Just Like That. The episode features guest appearances by Patrick Sandberg and Lauren Kramer, who join Chelsea and Lauren to offer their insights and critiques. The discussion begins with a heartfelt update from Chelsea about Lauren's maternity leave and the arrival of her adorable baby, setting a warm and personal tone for the episode.

Recap of "And Just Like That" Episode 3: Carrie Golightly

The episode begins with Carrie Golightly engaging in a Zoom meeting with her book editor, where she reveals that she's venturing into fiction writing. Her editor informs her about speaking opportunities at Google and South by Southwest (SxSW). This scene provides much-needed context regarding Carrie's current fame and the success of her memoir, Widowcon. Lauren Garrone notes, “[01:46] Lauren Garrone: You're going to be shocked to hear me say this, Chelsea, but I actually really appreciated this scene...” highlighting the significance of Carrie's growing recognition.

Carrie's reluctance to fully embrace these high-profile opportunities is evident as she opts to attend a seemingly obscure memoir panel in Williamsburg, Virginia, rather than leveraging the offers from Google and SxSW. This decision underscores Carrie's ongoing struggle between personal fulfillment and career advancement. Chelsea expresses confusion over Carrie's fame level, suggesting a more straightforward mention like being on the New York Times bestseller list would have sufficed to clarify her status.

The narrative then shifts to Carrie's lunch at the newly opened Hot Fellas brick-and-mortar location, which isn't performing well. Lauren speculates, “[03:12] Lauren Garrone: Yeah. Do we think it's not doing particularly well because LTW hasn't arrived with all the hot moms.” This sets the stage for exploring the dynamics of Carrie's social circles and business ventures.

The core storyline revolves around Carrie and her friend Seema's trip to Virginia to meet Aiden, Seema's boyfriend. Their journey is marked by Carrie’s attempt to secure Adderall for Aiden’s son, Wyatt, highlighting the pressures and ethical dilemmas Carrie faces. The hosts critique Carrie's manipulative behavior, comparing it to her past interactions with Mr. Big, revealing that Carrie hasn't significantly matured in her interpersonal relationships.

Seema's subplot involves her discovering that her boss, Elliot, is retiring and selling their mutual company to Ryan Serhan, a notable real estate agent from the Netflix show Selling Manhattan. This revelation prompts Seema to reevaluate her career path, considering leaving the company to pursue her own ventures. Lauren Kramer humorously explains, “[05:50] Lauren Garrone: Yeah, like, isn't there like a Veneta store in Williamsburg now, or am I making that up?” reflecting on the rapid changes in Williamsburg's commercial landscape.

Meanwhile, Charlotte grapples with work stress, feeling she’s missing out on sales due to familial obligations and her own decision to bring Harry to a clubbing outing. Their storyline injects humor and critique of the art world's often superficial dealings, as Charlotte attempts to facilitate a romantic encounter for a colleague, only to misinterpret intentions and face awkward outcomes.

Anthony's subplot introduces his venture, Hot Fellas, a store struggling to attract customers despite an initial successful launch day. His obsession with the store's aesthetic over functionality leads him to bizarre marketing tactics, such as selling his own body to attract attention, which Lauren Kramer finds both humorous and bewildering.

Analysis and Discussion

Chelsea and Lauren, joined by Patrick Sandberg and Lauren Kramer, offer a critical analysis of the episode. They express concerns over Carrie's persistent manipulative tactics and lack of character growth. At [04:14], Chelsea remarks, “Well, this is what Carrie does to her, quote unquote, fun friend,” highlighting Carrie's tendency to prioritize her desires over genuine connections.

The discussion also touches upon Seema's decision-making, with Lauren Kramer questioning Seema’s awareness of the signs indicating she should venture out on her own. Chelsea adds humor to the critique, noting Carrie's unrealistic use of luggage as a means to mask her ulterior motives during the trip.

Charlotte's storyline receives mixed reactions. While praising her comedic performance when she spirals into clubbing antics, the hosts criticize the unrealistic portrayal of sales tactics under the influence of substances. For instance, Charlotte ensures her clients, often under the influence of cocaine, make impulsive art purchases, which Chelsea finds implausible.

Anthony's endeavor with Hot Fellas becomes a point of amusement, especially his dissatisfaction with the store's clientele and his over-the-top marketing strategies, such as emphasizing the need for male genital prints on bread packaging to attract customers. Lauren Kramer humorously questions the viability of such marketing, stating, “[26:54] Lauren Garrone: Do we think that's product placement?”

Guest Insights: Patrick Sandberg & Lauren Kramer

Guests Patrick Sandberg and Lauren Kramer provide additional perspectives, often bringing humor and critical viewpoints to the discussion. Patrick expresses disbelief at Carrie's actions, comparing her behavior unfavorably to her previous relationship dynamics. Lauren Kramer echoes these sentiments, emphasizing that Carrie hasn't shown significant personal growth, remaining stuck in old patterns of manipulation and passive-aggressiveness.

The guests also critique the show's narrative choices, such as the portrayal of Seema's professional setbacks and the unrealistic scenarios presented. They discuss the lack of interconnectedness in character storylines, making the episode feel disjointed and unmoored.

Additional Topics

Beyond the episode recap, the hosts and guests explore various other topics:

1. Materialist – A24 Film Review:

   • Chelsea and Lauren discuss the A24 film Materialist, drawing parallels to Sex and the City. They compare Dakota Johnson's character Lucy to Carrie Bradshaw, highlighting the exploration of love intertwined with financial status. Lauren Kramer praises the film's truthful depiction of jaded love, stating, “[32:06] Lauren Garrone: But Chelsea, did I ever tell you that I once saw Matchmaker?”

2. Howard Stern Interview with Sarah Jessica Parker:

   • The hosts touch upon a controversial moment from Howard Stern's interview with Sarah Jessica Parker, discussing the authenticity and transparency of actors regarding their on-screen personas. They express skepticism over Parker's claims of not having watched her performances, debating the implications of an executive producer not fully engaging with their show's content.

3. Sabrina Carpenter Controversy:

   • A brief segment discusses the backlash against Sabrina Carpenter's new album cover, which depicts her kneeling with a man grabbing her hair. The hosts debate whether the image glamorizes violence against women or serves as a playful satire, ultimately defending Carpenter's artistic expression.

4. Cola Scola's Tony Win:

   • The podcast celebrates Cola Scola's unexpected Tony Award win, viewing it as a deserved acknowledgment of creative talent. They reminisce about past award ceremonies and express admiration for Scola's performance and journey in the theater world.

5. Paul Reubens Documentary – "Pee Wee as Himself":

   • A significant portion is dedicated to discussing Matt Wolf's documentary about Paul Reubens. The hosts and guests share their emotional reactions, recounting their memories of Pee Wee's Playhouse and reflecting on Reubens' personal and professional struggles. They praise the documentary's honest portrayal of Reubens' life, his relationships, and his creative genius, emphasizing its emotional depth and historical significance.

Conclusion

Episode 225 of Every Outfit offers a comprehensive and engaging analysis of And Just Like That's episode focusing on Carrie Golightly, intertwined with insightful discussions on broader pop culture topics. Chelsea, Lauren, Patrick, and Lauren Kramer provide a blend of humor, critique, and personal anecdotes, making the episode a rich listen for fans seeking deeper understanding and varied perspectives. The episode concludes with teasers for upcoming content, including a special mini hotline episode featuring Chelsea's wife Tatiana, promising further exploration of relationship and fashion queries.

Notable Quotes with Timestamps

• Chelsea Fairless [00:04]: "I spent $40,000 on shoes."
• Lauren Garrone [01:46]: "You're going to be shocked to hear me say this, Chelsea, but I actually really appreciated this scene..."
• Chelsea Fairless [04:14]: "Well, this is what Carrie does to her, quote unquote, fun friend..."
• Lauren Garrone [05:50]: "Seema's gay oppressor boss is played by the actor John Glover."
• Lauren Kramer [32:25]: "I think if our approval hasn't sold you on this film, let me explain Materialist a different way."
• Chelsea Fairless [55:34]: "It builds characters, though, to watch bad musicals."
• Lauren Kramer [74:02]: "She's doing it to be very Addison, no matter what it is."

These quotes encapsulate key moments and opinions shared during the podcast, providing listeners with direct insights from the hosts and guests.

Transcript

[Chelsea Fairless]

I spent $40,000 on shoes.

[Lauren Garrone]

What's the matter, Morty?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Turn to my arm.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Great gowns.

[Lauren Kramer]

Beautiful gowns.

[Lauren Garrone]

Fashion has changed. No, it hasn't.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Hi, my name is Chelsea Fairless. So before we get into the show, I just wanted to give you guys a little update about Lauren. She is out of the hospital and I went to her house yesterday and got to meet the baby. He is very, very cute. I cannot reveal the name, but he does have the same name as a particularly horrifying Sex in the City boyfriend, which was actually a total accident. But anyway, Lauren and I did recap this week's end, just like that episode before she went on maternity leave. You are about to hear that conversation. And after that, I will be joined by Patrick Sandberg, Lauren Kramer, who are here to weigh in on SJP's Howard Stern appearance, the Pee Wee documentary, and so much more.

[Lauren Garrone]

Hi, I'm Lauren Garrone.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And I'm Chelsea Fairless.

[Lauren Garrone]

And welcome back to the Every Outfit podcast. Today we are going to be recapping the third episode of season three of and Just like that, Carrie Golightly.

[Chelsea Fairless]

This episode was directed by Michael Patrick King and written by Samantha Irby, who has written some of our favorite and Just like that episodes.

[Lauren Garrone]

All right, guys, let's get into it.

[Chelsea Fairless]

This episode starts with Carrie having a zoom meeting with her book editor. She reveals that she is writing fiction and her editor says that she has speaking requests for Google and South by Southwest.

[Lauren Garrone]

You're going to be shocked to hear me say this, Chelsea, but I actually really appreciated this scene because I think it gives us a context that we have longed for, which is what? What is Carrie's fame level? You know, we talked about this in season two. We couldn't really decipher. Was the widow memoir successful? Was it not? She's having to embarrass herself to get a mention in Eden's newsletter. She's doing Widowcon, which is presented as embarrassing. It was lovely to see, like, oh, no, this book is successful in some sort of circle. So much so that she is being asked to go to these kind of high net worth, high bandwidth events.

[Chelsea Fairless]

True, I was impressed that Google wanted to fly her out. But to your point about Carrie's fame level, I think all we needed was just an offhand mention of like, oh, your book is on the New York Times bestseller list or something. Because I'm still confused about Carrie's fame level.

[Lauren Garrone]

But what I also thought was refreshing about this scene is that Carrie is going to carry instead of taking the business Opportunities that could help her career. Instead, she would rather go to an obscure memoir panel in Williamsburg, Virginia. Because I don't know if you know this, Chelsea. Aiden lives in Virginia.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, I hadn't heard. She then has a girls lunch at the newly opened Hot Fellas brick and mortar location, which is not doing particularly well.

[Lauren Garrone]

Yeah. Do we think it's not doing particularly well because LTW hasn't arrived with all the hot moms.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I don't know. But I'm glad that Carrie is once again wearing that Chanel blouse from Hot Child in the City that she wore when she first met. What's his name? Power Lad.

[Lauren Garrone]

Yes, the comic book purveyor.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, she wore that when she met Power Lad. It was also worn by Kate Moss during that same time. Fabulous piece to resurrect.

[Lauren Garrone]

Yeah, there's a lot of echoes. And I wonder how purposeful this is to the original series because she is soft. Launching this trip to Virginia to her friends Miranda, Charlotte and Seema. As we've noted, the Samantha stand in this season. Seema. And it really reminded me of that episode in season four where she's trying to get her friends to go to Suffern to go to Aiden's cabin. Like she is not pitching this trip to Virginia very well to get a plus one with her.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, this is what Carrie does to her, quote unquote, fun friend. Right. Because this was also what she did to Samantha with the San Francisco trip. In these trips, she presents to people under the guise of, this is gonna be a fun thing for us to do. But really it's all about a guy. It's all about some passive aggressive thing with a guy. Like with Big, she didn't even wanna tell him that she had an event in San Francisco. She was like, I'll just surprise him when I'm there. Remember?

[Lauren Garrone]

Yeah. Which I guess she's kind of doing with Aiden as well.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Exactly. Old habits.

[Lauren Garrone]

Yeah. I don't know if I like easy breezy Carrie.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No. It's sad to see that she hasn't really evolved or I suppose matured that much because she's still playing games with these guys. Right. Like she says, Aiden and I, we're old enough now, we know how we feel about each other. But she's still reverting to the same sort of behavior that she did with Mr. Big.

[Lauren Garrone]

And I think that also speaks to turning down the Google and South by Southwest panels that she is still hyper focused on a man instead of what is best for her career. Although, to be fair, she could still Go to those panels.

[Chelsea Fairless]

True, but clearly she doesn't.

[Lauren Garrone]

Seema has a line that I will say is very Samantha esque. If Samantha was a real estate agent, where in turning down Carrie's offer to go to Virginia, Seema says, sweetie, I won't even travel to Williamsburg, Brooklyn. Which we'll get into this in a little bit. But sort of begs the question of like, how good of a real estate agent is Seema?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, like, isn't there like a. A Veneta store in Williamsburg now, or am I making that up?

[Lauren Garrone]

There's a Chanel store in Williamsburg.

[Chelsea Fairless]

That's crazy.

[Lauren Garrone]

There are definitely multimillion dollar listings in Williamsburg. But we'll get into what's going on with Seema in a second because before Carrie can dwell on that too much, Kathy calls. Who's Kathy? Oh, right, Aiden's ex wife.

[Chelsea Fairless]

She calls and asks for the most insane thing, which is, can you get Adderall without a prescription? For my son with adhd, my soon to be school shooter son, Wyatt.

[Lauren Garrone]

To be fair, there is an Adderall shortage. And I do feel like Samantha Irby, who is the writer, who has the closest pulse on what is going on in the Zeitgeist in the world. I did actually appreciate this storyline as someone with adhd. It is a struggle. Now, the crazier thing, if you have tried to procure Adderall recently during this shortage, is she is asking 30 milligrams of extended release Addies.

[Chelsea Fairless]

What is that like, especially hard to get?

[Lauren Garrone]

Yeah, that's a lot of Adderall.

[Chelsea Fairless]

So Carrie goes back in to the girls and is like, this bitch wants me to get her Adderall, which Charlotte immediately is able to take care of.

[Lauren Garrone]

Well, yeah, I love that. She's like, who do I look like, Scarface? And it's like, I mean, in that Chanel outfit kind of. Yeah, I love this inner working inner network of moms that have pumped their children full of ephetamines.

[Chelsea Fairless]

In this whole episode, Carrie is trying to be, quote unquote, easy breezy about this trip. She's like, I'm going to go to Virginia, but I only want to have lunch with Aiden. I won't ask to stay over. It's just a casual kind of thing, right?

[Lauren Garrone]

And she physicalizes this by bringing an improbable amount of luggage. And by that I mean like so little luggage that it's like, it's okay, girl. You can bring a weekender bag, you.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Can bring a medium away suitcase and not this very chic circular train case, essentially. Or is it like a hat box?

[Lauren Garrone]

To be fair, we know that Carrie loves an improbable piece of luggage especially, yes, a circular old timey hat case that is truly meant for train travel.

[Chelsea Fairless]

So Seema has shit going on also.

[Lauren Garrone]

I mean, does she?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, not really. She doesn't have a lot of her own plot in this episode. She's mostly just with Carrie. But she is at a crossroads with her career.

[Lauren Garrone]

Well, she learns from her boss, Elliot, her gay oppressor, played by the actor John Glover, that he is retiring, which takes Seema by surprise because she was supposed to buy him out of his shares of their mutual company, but instead he's decided to sell it to Ryan Serhan. And, Chelsea, if you will indulge me in a bit of mansplaining, I love.

[Chelsea Fairless]

How this definition of mansplaining isn't really the traditional mansplaining. It's literally you just explaining who men are to me.

[Lauren Garrone]

Right. So Seema's gay oppressor boss is played by the actor John Glover. He was the father on Smallville. He was Lex Luthor's father on Smallville, I should say, for many years. You would probably recognize him as. I mean, I'll just say it. The gay oppressor to Poison Ivy and Batman and Robin. He is the mad scientist that pushes Uma Thurman into the Ivy, creating Poison Ivy.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay.

[Lauren Garrone]

And Ryan Serhan is a legitimate real estate agent. Last year we talked about his Netflix show, Selling Manhattan. He came from the world of million dollar listing. He has also appeared as himself in several television shows. And because I looked it up on his Wikipedia, in the first half of 2025, he has sold a billion dollars worth of real estate with his firm.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Damn.

[Lauren Garrone]

So Ryan Sarahan is a real person that exists in our reality, but he also exists in the end, just like that reality. And I really can't blame seem as boss for selling his firm to Ryan Serhan.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Right. And Seema maybe should stay on board. What do we think?

[Lauren Garrone]

Absolutely. We'll get into this later. The signs that Seema sees, I don't see them. So, yes, this prompts her to go to Virginia with Carrie. Seema and Carrie act truly insane on this airplane on their way down to Virginia. Right. Because Carrie has hidden the Adderall in her bra and says to Seema, like, hide me while I put it in my purse. I'm on Seema's side. It's like put it in a Tylenol bottle. Like, no one is checking for that.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, that's way more Sus to keep it in your bra.

[Lauren Garrone]

Also, we learned that in a scene that has happened off screen, Seema believes she is made nice with the flight attendant, that he's going to give her a tequila soda immediately, as soon as the flight takes off. And when she asks for it again, he's like, no, I'm not going to bring that to you. I have someone vomiting currently. Like, you can wait until the cruising altitude. Which makes her explain why is it gay men never do for me what they say they're going to do for me? Which seems to be a common refrain throughout this episode, obviously prompted by Elliot for screwing her over for sure.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Look, I relate to this.

[Lauren Garrone]

Go on.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, I hate when they refuse to give you a drink when there's not that much going on or they refuse to give you a double. That's my biggest pet peeve because I don't want to have to flag you down an hour from now. Just give me a double. Also, can we talk about this is my gripe with airlines. Let's say I want a vodka cranberry. They will give me one tiny bottle of Tito's in a can of cranberry juice. What am I supposed to do with the rest of this cranberry juice? Give me one of those mini cans of cranberry juice. That's more proportionate. So I'm not babysitting a whole ass.

[Lauren Garrone]

Can, I will say, multiple times a year. Certainly whenever I fly. I am reminded of a Kanye west tweet before Kanye Went Crazy, where he is talking about a flight attendant giving him a little water bottle. And he's like, great, now I'm responsible for this water bottle. And I think about that all the time. So do I. I especially think about this when you go to parking garages and you have to keep the ticket even after you pay. It's like, I'm now responsible for this ticket. What am I supposed to do with it? I've already paid.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Some people need them for tax purposes.

[Lauren Garrone]

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[Chelsea Fairless]

True, as always. The end. Just like that world feels very small. Like, it seems like they're avoiding bigger crowds and situations where there's a lot of extras and stuff.

[Lauren Garrone]

That's very true. It's still 2020 for them. So there's the whole thing with Carrie realizing that she is not given a key to Aiden, to their home, which I don't think we've talked about this yet. Is it their home?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, she's thinking of it as their.

[Lauren Garrone]

Home, even though she bought it with presumably Biggs money. With Big's money, which might have been Aiden's evil plan all along. But what we do get to see is that they are at the hotel that is hosting them. All Seema wants is fried chicken. She can't get the fried chicken. There's a funny bit about how the menu has now gone heart healthy, and.

[Chelsea Fairless]

So they have to order kfc, which is yet another throwback to Hot Child in the City.

[Lauren Garrone]

That's very true.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah.

[Lauren Garrone]

Carrie will fuck with some kfc. Do we think that's product placement?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I don't know.

[Lauren Garrone]

So Carrie continues to spiral because she calls Aiden and is like, can't wait for our lunch. And he's like, yeah, man. To be fair, he does say he's only 25 minutes away, I guess under the guise of, like, I could pick you up. And she's like, no, no, we're gonna drive our own car. But then she's disappointed that he doesn't ask her to stay over.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. And spirals, of course.

[Lauren Garrone]

Of course. Because Easy Breezy Carrie, not that easy breezy. And this is where we get.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, no. And it's actually like, truly psychotic to be like, oh, I just happen to be here. It's literally like When Carrie stalked Mr. Big and his mother outside of the church. And she's like, oh, yeah, I just happened to be walking by right now. It's like, no. Everything about this was deliberate and premeditated.

[Lauren Garrone]

So this is where the episode becomes an I Love Lucy episode. Right. Because they go to rent a car, we learn that Carrie's driver's license has expired. It expired in 2017, which she was unaware of because I guess she does not drive and only uses her passport when she travels. So Seema therefore rents the car. She is waiting for a call from her boss, which comes in and they pull off into a parking lot. I feel like I'm over explaining this.

[Chelsea Fairless]

You are over explaining. The funny thing about this scene is that they pull into a parking lot and we immediately see this massive sign that's like, do not reverse or something like that. We see that these traffic spikes are here. We can see this coming from a mile away. It's like they are over explaining this situation to us as if we are in kindergarten.

[Lauren Garrone]

Seema, of course, is not reading the signs, learns that she won't be Ryan Serhan's partner. She would have to work under him. Which, like, yeah, again, not that it's mentioned in the end, just like that world, but in the world that you and I live in, this man has sold billions of dollars of real estate. Why would it be the Sirhan and Patal Group? Right? She goes over the backup spikes and this is her sign to go out on her own because she can't keep going backwards. Question mark, Question mark.

[Chelsea Fairless]

You know? Sure, why not?

[Lauren Garrone]

And just like that, Seema's out of the storyline. And Aiden picks up Carrie.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay, Aiden picks up Carrie in the truck that he jerked off in. And also the truck that Wyatt drove while high on magic mushrooms, presumably.

[Lauren Garrone]

That's a good question. Wyatt might have crashed in a different car because I think this is, you are correct, the pickup truck that he masturbates in. And also the pickup truck that he sobs in at the end of season two.

[Chelsea Fairless]

He calls it a goober. A hillbilly Uber.

[Lauren Garrone]

Sure, why not? You know what? This is the Aiden I expect more than the jerk off Aiden. Carrie ultimately gets her wish because ultimately Carrie does get everything that she wants. She gets a sleepover with Aiden. But there's an Asterix in true. And just like that, Storytelling. They get to the house at night and Aiden realizes, like, you think I over explained the sign thing? Aiden over explains, like, oh, I completely forgot. We as a family have a thing where we always say what tomorrow's plans are the night before. And I forgot to tell everyone you would be staying over. Ergo, you need to stay in the guest house.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, it seems rude, but clearly Aiden has some intense family shit going on. Although I do like that part where Carrie's like, should I sleep standing up like a cow? So, yeah, that's. That's Carrie.

[Lauren Garrone]

Well, we. We shouldn't forget that. She hands Aiden the contraband, the Adderall. To which Aidan has a very bewildered look, which, as an audience member, you're like, oh, putting together, like, Kathy calls Carrie, Aiden has this weirded out look. Oh, Wyatt's not supposed to have that Adderall, which it feels very weird.

[Chelsea Fairless]

See, I totally didn't get that at all.

[Lauren Garrone]

Oh, really? No, I think that's your straight man actor blindness. But I find it interesting. I was trying to think back of, like, Insects in the city and other seasons of injustice like that. Have we, as the audience, ever had more information than the characters and. I don't think so.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, we haven't.

[Lauren Garrone]

Anyway, only time will tell. The fate of the Adderall ltw.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Not a ton going on. She loses her editor, Grace, to Steve McQueen's latest project. She angrily mashes potatoes.

[Lauren Garrone]

Yeah, she seems to be very upset at her editor for having to leave mid project for Steve McQueen. She needs Herbert to talk her down from the ledge.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Look, I get it. Grace had already committed to her project. But if our podcast editor was like, chelsea, Lauren, I just got hired by the Daily and I can't edit every outfit anymore, I would be like, thank God. Good for you. You know?

[Lauren Garrone]

Yeah. And there's some coded discussion about, like, well, you decided to have children and I don't have children, and my career is my child, and like, I have to do what's best for me. Which it takes until late in the episode for LTW to be like, well, I guess you're right.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, look, I get it. She has certainly higher stakes than we do with an editor because she has the added pressure of telling the stories of these unsung black women. But still, it's not as if Grace is leaving her high and dry with no recommendations.

[Lauren Garrone]

I'm sorry, Chelsea, did you mean Shiroes?

[Lauren Kramer]

Stop?

[Lauren Garrone]

Yeah, there are other editors out there. So it was nice meeting you, Grace, and best of luck in your Steve McQueen project.

[Chelsea Fairless]

So, Miranda doesn't have a ton going on in this episode.

[Lauren Garrone]

She really doesn't. We get her in Carrie's apartment building.

[Chelsea Fairless]

A cat tree and we hear that she is going to ask out Joy under the guise of asking for on camera coaching tips.

[Lauren Garrone]

Joy, AKA Dolly Wells. Are we referring to her as Joy or Dolly Wells?

[Chelsea Fairless]

We're going to refer to her as Joy.

[Lauren Garrone]

Okay.

[Chelsea Fairless]

She does go out with Joy and they have a vaguely erotic moment. I am supportive of Miranda's dating journey. You just someone needs to make the first move. It stresses me out.

[Lauren Garrone]

Oh, I thought you were going to say the writings on the wall. You were hoping to get more girlfriends of the week for Mirand.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, for sure. And that might be the case. Right? Maybe she's dating this character for five episodes or something. We don't know.

[Lauren Garrone]

And now we have Charlotte who blessedly has a work storyline. Hallelujah.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yes, we needed this.

[Lauren Garrone]

Charlotte is distressed because she is missing out on sales because she is going home to her stupid ass family instead of going to the after parties. Going to the after after parties and making those 4:00am cocaine sales.

[Chelsea Fairless]

See, I feel like you meet people at the after parties but you're not like selling million dollar paintings on the spot.

[Lauren Garrone]

Well, yeah. Again, not to be too nitpicky, but it feels like if you are with your clients drugged out of their minds, you're sort of coercing them to buy very expensive art that I think once they wake up and sober up, they're going to tell their business manager like I never agreed to buy that.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Also, is it just me or are the gallerinists looking incredible increasingly insane from a costuming standpoint.

[Lauren Garrone]

Oh, absolutely.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Charlotte decides that she has to go clubbing. Decides to bring Harry for some reason.

[Lauren Garrone]

Well, we should get into. There is a family dinner of which Giuseppe and Anthony are at. Why? I guess just so Giuseppe could be like, hey, Harry, why don't you go clubbing? Charlotte, why don't you go clubbing as well? Why don't you go clubbing together?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Why don't you have Carrie pick out your outfit for the club?

[Lauren Garrone]

Again, the best ideas are coming from Giuseppe and Lisette, the younger generation.

[Chelsea Fairless]

So Carrie takes him shopping briefly.

[Lauren Garrone]

Could have used a whole subplot that lasted half an episode with just Harry and Carrie shopping.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. Can we at least get a montage of Harry trying on different outfits?

[Lauren Garrone]

Yeah, that was a bummer. He only tries on that one pair of too tight pants which Carrie should have been like, maybe not.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I was expecting Carrie to come through a little bit More like take him to the acne store or something to be fair.

[Lauren Garrone]

Does Carrie know cool clothing? Yes. Does she know cool clothing for a 60 something year old man? I'm not sure.

[Chelsea Fairless]

So they go to the club. Harry pisses himself.

[Lauren Garrone]

He pisses himself because his pants are too tight. Question mark.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, he can't get them oftentimes. And I get it like, you know when you like really have to pee and you're like putting the keys into your front door and you're like this close to pissing yourself. Yeah.

[Lauren Garrone]

I don't know what the scientific logic is behind that, but yeah, he saw that urinal and he was like, time to go.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It's so stupid how your body determines, like, I'm in a safe place when you're not. You know, they're like, you're close enough surely.

[Lauren Garrone]

But thankfully his pants are dark enough that no one notices that he pisses himself. And he is able to get a photo for the gram. Which answers your question as to why is Harry going clubbing. It's so that his younger co workers see that photo on Instagram and think that he's cool because that's exactly the response that he will get from that. But Harry always encouraging of Charlotte is like, no, no, you go out and party.

[Chelsea Fairless]

She drinks espresso martinis. She declines the coke, unfortunately.

[Lauren Garrone]

Speaking of things that rhyme of Sex and the City, didn't espresso martini aided Charlotte remind you of Charlotte on Staten island in season three when she gets drunk on the Long island iced teas and starts dancing? Oh, for sure.

[Chelsea Fairless]

We also did get drunk Charlotte last season, although she was having more of a nervous breakdown.

[Lauren Garrone]

Yes, this is drunk jubilant dancing Charlotte, which I enjoyed a great deal. So one of her colleagues wants to sleep with the Dutch client. So Charlotte's trying to facilitate that in the bathroom because she's not doing coke like everyone else. And instead that guy thinks that the person who has a crush on him is Charlotte and tries to kiss her.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, that's what happens. Then she leaves. Then she's hungover, but she sells a painting anyway because she's a mom.

[Lauren Garrone]

Charlotte realizes that unlike her much younger co workers, she is a part of an untapped market, which is fellow rich moms. Charlotte doesn't need to go to the after after party.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I did like in this scene when she's hungover and she shrieks so loudly that gives her a headache.

[Lauren Garrone]

She scares herself.

[Chelsea Fairless]

That was cute.

[Lauren Garrone]

And last but certainly not least, as we mentioned earlier, Anthony has started Hot Fellas. The Brick and mortar store. It seems like sales are doing pretty good for the first day of its existence. But he is unmoved by it.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, he's concerned that the hot fellas aren't hot enough. He starts selling his body on the street, essentially.

[Lauren Garrone]

Well, yeah. I mean, this is funny conceit about Anthony starting hot fellas, which is this man basically doesn't believe in his own product and is like, only if you see a man's large penis dick print, are you going to come in and buy bread from here?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Is he not wrong, though? Also, I just want to say Mario Cantone is 65. He looks really good.

[Lauren Garrone]

He looks amazing, but he's. Anthony is mad at Giuseppe this entire episode because Giuseppe won't get in the uniform, and that is the golden ticket to success.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And thankfully, Giuseppe ultimately comes to his rescue with his giant dick.

[Lauren Garrone]

Again. Would you go into a bread shop because of someone's impressive dick print?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I wouldn't, but I can't speak for your tastes.

[Lauren Garrone]

I don't think I would either. I think that gets into, you know, the. The no go zone for us, which is mixing sex and. And food together.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I do love a trip to Hooters, though.

[Lauren Garrone]

Well, yeah. And that is a rapidly evaporating experience.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I know. It's so sad that the one here.

[Lauren Garrone]

Is gone and got replaced with the Wahlburgers.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I think the one in New York is gone too.

[Lauren Garrone]

You know, child, that speaks to our internalized misogyny, because somehow we can justify boobs and wings, but not dick and bread.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay, final thoughts.

[Lauren Garrone]

We don't get an in just like that.

[Chelsea Fairless]

We got no end just like that. Instead, we got a snippet of Carrie's latest masterpiece.

[Lauren Kramer]

The woman had survived the treacherous journey.

[Lauren Garrone]

Mostly intact.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Albeit dispossessed of her nightgown and carpet bag. With little more than her thoughts for.

[Lauren Kramer]

Company, she burrowed beneath her blankets to.

[Lauren Garrone]

Stave off the cold, uncertain night ahead.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay, I just want to give Samantha Irby props for writing this in Carrie's voice. And peppering in the carpet bag and the nightgown are details that I think she would include if she was writing a historical romance novel.

[Lauren Garrone]

Absolutely.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But I continue to be thrown by the lack of end just like that, because I feel like the end just like that is kind of the thesis of the episode in a way.

[Lauren Garrone]

Absolutely.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And it is a very efficient way to wrap things up and signal the ending.

[Lauren Garrone]

Well, especially this episode where none of the character storylines, I guess, other than Carrie and Seema's, are interconnected without some voiceover. Connecting everything, it just. Everything. And everyone feels very unmoored.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yes. So I suggested to you that we should write our own end just like thats for the end of this episode. My end just like that is. And just like that, I wondered if Aiden would ever let me in.

[Lauren Garrone]

See, I had a feeling that you would actually do an end just like that that could fit in the show. So I went in a different direction. So mine is. And just like that, Giuseppe's dick print saves the day.

[Chelsea Fairless]

That's beautiful.

[Lauren Garrone]

Or perhaps my end just like that should be. And just like that, this is where I'll be leaving you for this episode. Bye, Chell.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Bye, bitch.

[Lauren Garrone]

Oh wait, guys. Just kidding. I'm back because I wanted to Discuss the new A24 film, Materialist, which is out now only in theaters.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Is this technically an ad? Yes, but it's for a film that we would cover anyway. So instead of reading a script, we are just going to talk about it because it truly has so many parallels to Sex and the City.

[Lauren Garrone]

Guys, you know, it's good if Chelsea is willing to do podcast ads with me. And I think where we should start is the fact that we got invited to a special screening of this film.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yes, it was very fancy. Dakota Johnson was there, Melanie Griffith was there.

[Lauren Garrone]

Dakota Johnson's mom. Did you know that?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Obviously I know that. But it also is kind of perfect because Melanie Griffith, famously the star of Working Girl and Materialists, is kind of cut from the same cloth. It is a rom com about a young, driven woman trying to make it in the big city.

[Lauren Garrone]

That's right. And this is Celine Song, writer and director of past lives. Follow up. It is a genius spin on a rom com. Dakota Johnson plays Lucy. She is a high end matchmaker, but she has become extremely jaded about love. And she has presented these two options in Chris Evans and Pedro Pascal. And while we were watching the film, we were stunned by the fact that this film is kind of a version of what if Carrie's choices were Steve or Mr. Big?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, and Pedro Pascal is the Mr. Big. Chris Evans is the Steve. He's Steve in that. He's middle class, I suppose, but he's also kind of Smith Jarret because he's a struggling actor and he's like fucking forcing Dakota Johnson to go to his shitty play in Brooklyn.

[Lauren Garrone]

I know that some people are listening to this and they're like, how dare you compare Chris Evans to Steve? But hear us out. They both share a bit of a failure to launch, but they have a sweetheart at their core.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, for sure.

[Lauren Garrone]

But Pedro Pascal does have that amazing apartment. Yes.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And when Dakota Johnson first went to the apartment, it felt very sexy. In the city. It felt like when Carrie went to Petrovsky's apartment kind of.

[Lauren Garrone]

Absolutely.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Also like Sex and the City. Pivotal scene where there's a wedding at the Plaza. I don't think that's too much of a spoiler. It is on the poster.

[Lauren Garrone]

Chelsea, did I ever tell you that I once saw Matchmaker?

[Chelsea Fairless]

No. You saw Dakota Johnson.

[Lauren Garrone]

Okay, I should clarify. I actually did not pay for a matchmaker to set me up, but I did apply to be in the dating pool of a matchmaker, and it didn't go well. Dakota Johnson in this film, very good at her job.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Very good at her job. But it's such a depressing scene job because you basically just, like, analyze people based on their financial status. And that's also what makes this film feel very Sex in the City because there's this overarching conversation about the relationship between love and money, which we got throughout that show.

[Lauren Garrone]

But Dakota Johnson as Lucy, way more truthful than, I think, Carrie Bradshaw, because she's been so burnt out on love, she genuinely just wants to marry someone with a lot of money.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. I get a girl. It's hard in New York.

[Lauren Garrone]

Guys, if our approval hasn't sold you on this film, let me explain Materialist a different way. Have you ever wanted a Nancy Meyers film that has Dasha from Red Scare in it?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yes. That's literally Materialists.

[Lauren Garrone]

We're not kidding. Dasha literally appears as the best friend role in this film.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, I don't know if she's the best friend. She's more of the jaded colleague. But it's a small but important role in the film for sure.

[Lauren Garrone]

Absolutely. So if a certain streaming show we may or may not be discussing weekly is leaving you wanting more on the rom com front, may we suggest Materialists.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Which is in theaters now?

[Lauren Garrone]

You did that call to action so well. Chell, do you want to do more ads with me?

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, this is it. I'm calling it.

[Lauren Garrone]

All right, on to the next part of the show.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Today we are joined by two recurring every outfit guests, Patrick Sandberg and Lauren Kramer. Welcome back, boys.

[Patrick Sandberg]

God bless you. God bless.

[Lauren Kramer]

Nobody asked for this.

[Patrick Sandberg]

This is Lauren Kramer over here, by the way, this is Lauren Kramer's voice. This is Lauren Kramer's voice. Okay.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Are you afraid that because you guys are both gay, they won't be able to tell you apart?

[Patrick Sandberg]

That's right.

[Lauren Kramer]

I think people won't Be able to tell you and I apart.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, you're right. That's probably more of the problem. So I know Lauren is obviously a Carrie, but Patrick, how do you identify?

[Lauren Kramer]

I'm Samantha.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Really?

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

Yeah. A scientific study revealed that to me.

[Chelsea Fairless]

With just a hint of Buddy McDougal thrown in there for good measure.

[Lauren Kramer]

It was one of those things that went around the Internet one day and then nobody ever talked about it again. And it was like a very Internet 1.0 looking personality quiz. It was really in depth.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Wow.

[Lauren Kramer]

And then it spat out results of which television characters you're the most like. And it gave them each percentages. And there were like hundreds and hundreds of them. It was from all different shows. And my top one was Samantha Jones.

[Patrick Sandberg]

What's the test? That it's like N, G, E, F or infp.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, the Myers Bridge.

[Patrick Sandberg]

The Myers, yes. Whatever mine was, it said like the other fucking characters were, well, it's Carrie Bradshaw. It's Willy Wonka.

[Lauren Kramer]

It's that one. I could have told you.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I'm a lot like Willy Wonka.

[Lauren Kramer]

You guys can't see Lauren. He's wearing a top hat.

[Chelsea Fairless]

So what did you guys think of this week's episode of. And just like that.

[Lauren Kramer]

Okay, I don't remember it, but I will say. And this was coming in. I was like, oh, this is what I wanted to say about this episode. You guys are gonna think I'm so crazy.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Let's hear it.

[Lauren Kramer]

There was a scene where Carrie was sitting and she was lit so beautifully.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh, wow.

[Lauren Kramer]

And in that moment, you know, I think that, like, you can tell a lot about an actor based upon what they do with mediocre material. And watching the show, I find myself distracted, if not in awe of Sarah Jessica Parker. I really think she's phenomenal. I think she's one of the most beautiful women on screen. The camera loves her. When I watch her, it feels expensive. I'm transported to, like.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I'm sure it is expensive.

[Lauren Kramer]

I'm sure it is. Yeah. You can tell. You can tell she costs money. That is the truth. She just looks like money on screen to me. I think about movies like the First Wives Club, her Tim Burton work. Like, I've always just loved her as an actress and I still love her as an actress, even on this show. Even playing Carrie Bradshaw at this juncture of the character's lifespan in which she is the most detestable she's ever been as a character. Correct. Contemptible, maybe another word that I might have used there. But I think that she's just so effortless and watchable, and she is running circles around a lot of the other actors. Now, if I were an agent and my client wanted to play a role on. And just like that, I think that what we're looking at here is that if you are part of the main cast, like Carrie, Miranda, Charlotte, ltw, it's a great showcase. I think if you're a cameo, it's harmless. I think if you are on the show playing a supporting actor, it will damage your career. I think that the actress who plays Seema is uncastable. No, I'm sorry. That was my thought process, watching the episode.

[Patrick Sandberg]

She's my vote off the island. She's my vote off the island.

[Lauren Kramer]

I've never seen someone maybe since, like, Degrassi the Next Generation, an actor who cannot commit to a line, who can't. Who can't read a line in a convincing way. I believe nothing coming out of this woman's mouth. Yeah, it's almost like she's reading cue cards and it's distracting. That's my take.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But to be fair, some of the dialogue that she has to read is pretty nuts.

[Lauren Kramer]

It's probably really bad on the page. I mean, we can get into it. I don't. I don't. And I understand what it's like being in a writer's room. So I don't want to discredit any of the writers, lest Anybody's running to IMDb to scroll through and see who's writing this, you know? Well, you may not really know the answer to that based upon what you see there. There are people that are in charge that at the end of the day, are putting their hands on everything. And that would be Michael Patrick King. And so when. If there's something that I find poorly executed about the show, I would hold him accountable and I would spare everybody else.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah, I mean, I was telling Chelsea this for a minute before we started recording. I mean, I really have never had an experience watching a fucking show like this where I just. I have to pause. Like, I have to pause and just, like, look around my room and just think, like, I've never watched a show so long. I've never seen a show so long. You know, it's shocking to me. Like, 40 minutes have never gone by slower. I mean, this is like I've got my notes here on my phone. So, you know this line that Harry says, SpongeBob square apart.

[Lauren Kramer]

The man in the top hat just pulled a scroll out of a satchel.

[Patrick Sandberg]

The clownishness of every character. But Especially these gay supporting characters. The flight attendant, the waiter at the fucking restaurant in the south in these two lines of like, oh, well, the 90 year old fucking realtor. Why is it that gay men never do for me what they say they're gonna do for me? And then later on. Why can no gay man ever give you what you're expecting? Like Michael Patrick King? What the fuck is going on? I mean, I don't know what these. What? What the. The gay clownishness. I don't know what's going on. The Warhol wigs and the bartenders. Do you remember those at the after party?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Wait, no, I didn't even know.

[Patrick Sandberg]

You don't. Oh my God. When they're at the afters and then all the bartenders were wearing little Warhol wigs.

[Lauren Kramer]

The show has an issue with the wardrobe department dressing the extras. Like Monster High.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh well, what the. I mean, the galleries, the gallerista, the fucking selfie youth, you know, next to.

[Lauren Kramer]

Charlotte, it's a flannel over a mesh shirt with a fedora with a studded suspender with a camo print mini backpack. It's like.

[Patrick Sandberg]

That's right.

[Lauren Kramer]

It doesn't make a Ramones logo, but.

[Patrick Sandberg]

With some new text.

[Lauren Kramer]

Bearded ladies as far as the eye can see.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I had to turn on subtitles because I simply didn't know what we were talking about. When Aiden said I didn't get a chance to tell the boys you were coming, which like, fuck you, this is insane. The night before we lay out what the next day's going to be, I had to put the subtitles on. The night before we lay out what the next day's going to be. What the fuck are you talking about? What the fuck are you. How old are these kids?

[Lauren Kramer]

I like that you're very detail oriented about that. Because I just want to.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Huh?

[Lauren Kramer]

And then she was in a room alone and I was like, I'm lost. Did he put her in the garage?

[Patrick Sandberg]

And I think that was a CGI garage and it was a CG when they fucking panned out. Oh yeah, that was. I mean, and it was.

[Lauren Kramer]

The plot of the episode was that she wanted him to ask her to stay over.

[Patrick Sandberg]

That's right.

[Lauren Kramer]

And then he did and she was so happy. But then she was sequestered in the room above the garage and that's what she wanted. She was like pleased at the end of the day that that was how things went.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Well, she finally got that great piece of writing out of the deal which I have written down.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I think it was A little bittersweet for Carrie. We did just play that clip in the last.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh, good.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

That may have been asserted. That may have been the clip where I was like, she's drop dead beautiful, and I would give her anything. Like, I would. I truly love Sarah Jessica Barker. This isn't, like, a new realization for me, but I did. I do think I forgot how great she is.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Don't you think that there's also. I was telling Chelsea, I don't remember if it was the Adam Friedland interview or the Howard Stern interview. And Sarah Jessica's talking about how much attention is paid to the prop department if there's a book in the background an episode later. Well, that book wouldn't still be lying around. Great. You know, fine. There is such an uneven amount of attention being paid to details and then an oversight of other pieces of information. Like when Harry pissed his pants. I found it so alarming and sad and kind of scary and upsetting when I. Obviously, I think it was supposed to be a comedic beat, but it's like this strange imbalance of something's feeling, like it lacked realism.

[Lauren Kramer]

Is that what you're trying to say? It was fantastical. It was scary. We entered fantasy.

[Patrick Sandberg]

It was scary.

[Lauren Kramer]

And that's the type of thing that I think, from my experience is writing on shows which I'm not at liberty to discuss in a room. You would say, we can't do that. It can't be that he pisses himself because he doesn't understand a button fly on a pair of jeans, because that's simply not possible. Button fly jeans come from the past when he would have been young. Like, he would have grown up with button fly jeans. He would have worn them throughout the 70s and probably the 80s and probably the 90s. So, like, for this to be a new fashion thing just doesn't make any sense. If there was, like, a complicated belt or some kind of strap or another reason, that could have been a nice fix. The button fly, really?

[Patrick Sandberg]

It was scary.

[Lauren Kramer]

Not scary because it might actually happen. It's scary how it would never happen. And yet we're supposed to suspend disbelief.

[Patrick Sandberg]

There seems to be such a conflict of, like, I don't, like, the internal psyche or, like, the inner life of the actor, which seems to be at such odds with, like, the character that they're playing that even. What the fuck is the gardener's name? The hot gardener.

[Lauren Kramer]

I don't know the gardener's name. Yeah, it's Logan Marshall Green.

[Patrick Sandberg]

He seems so angry. There seems to be, like, so much Rage.

[Lauren Kramer]

He's angry at his agent.

[Patrick Sandberg]

You know, like, what is the rage in the performance? It's his manners settling. It's unsettling. Just like, you know, his hair.

[Lauren Kramer]

But that's why. But that's why I love him. And he's so hot because he always looks angry. You know, people say that he was like other Tom Hardy, like that he should have, oh boy. Had some of Tom Hardy's career. But then Tom Hardy came along.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Is he that talented?

[Lauren Kramer]

He is really talented. He's in like in this incredible movie called the Invitation. I don't know. Have you seen it? Karen Kusama, have you seen it? It was one of Netflix's original films that came out when they first were making movies and when they made good movies, you guys have to watch. I don't even want to tell you what it's about, but it's like, it's like people going to like kind of of a stylish like hip person's house for dinner in la. And then something happens that goes to the left. And then he's also in a masterful film called Prometheus directed by Ridley Scott.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh, my God. With Michael Fassbender.

[Lauren Kramer]

Yes.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh, yeah, I remember that one.

[Lauren Kramer]

And he gets the thing in his eye.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I saw that in a theater in New York and there was a lizard, a real lizard, loose in the theater. Okay, but Patrick, please, please.

[Lauren Kramer]

That so New York.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Patrick, please.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It's also so you. Did you unleash it yourself?

[Lauren Kramer]

He was also, he was also on the OC which is where a lot of people know him from. Ryan's brother on the OC who Marissa shot when the what do you Imogen Heap song played the best.

[Patrick Sandberg]

What you say?

[Lauren Garrone]

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[Lauren Kramer]

I think Charlotte feels like she's in a different show. That's like a little bit more I Love Lucy. And I don't mind it like if it were just a show about Charlotte. I like her comedic performance.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Sure.

[Lauren Kramer]

That's what's so disorienting about watching it is that there are good performances within this terrible series.

[Chelsea Fairless]

For sure.

[Patrick Sandberg]

What I found so disturbing, it's the last episode. But when Seema has this like, go, girl. I'm like a fabulous woman, you know? And the imaginary audience at home is like, I want to be a bad bitch like her.

[Lauren Kramer]

She's tired of being Brooklyn. I don't think anybody does.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Well, I pray to God. But when she's like, get me out of the van, whatever, and don't worry, I've got my driver picking me up, whatever the fuck it is, it's like, this woman is shitty. She's shitty. Like, you haven't seen your boyfriend in a while. He's in town. Okay. He should have told you that we're gonna go on a scout or something. But like, have a sense of humor. I don't know.

[Lauren Kramer]

She's like, no, you're right. You know, she was. She's there as a proxy for Samantha, of course. But then the thing is, is that she's picking up on certain. And this might be to the writer's credit. She is supposed to be a different person than Samantha. So she's not gonna do what Samantha would have done. But watching the location scout episode, I know it's not this week's episode, but I watched them all kind of in a fugue state. While I was sick last weekend. And that really bothered me, that storyline, this man who's like a. I mean an improbable sort of director character who's shooting on location in Egypt for some film which just simply doesn't happen, and in front of the pyramids. And then the next day he's back and he's going on this location scout. It's like this man who's rich, successful, cute, who's in love with Seema, is back from this trip. She's not happy to see him at all. She's horrified that he wants. That he has to do this location scout. She's completely unwilling to go along with it. Is miserable the entire time. I was like, like, if. If this were Samantha, she would have made the most of it. She would have blown him in the van. That's exactly. She would have. She would have taken over and driven the van. That is, she would have been like, honey, if you want apocalyptic, you should have been at the Diesel party in 2011 when they erected a circus tent. On second thought, move over, I'm driving. Like, that's what would have happened. She would have saved the day.

[Patrick Sandberg]

They would have fucked on that CGI pier.

[Lauren Kramer]

The movie would have been a hit.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Because CGI peer. He would have kept the Birkin of. Of that assistant who's so high paid that he has it. It would have been fun clownery. That's right. It's an adventure. It's a fucking adventure. Who gives a shit about going to what fucking goddamn restaurant? I forget which one first. John George, block there, please. Come on.

[Lauren Kramer]

But that like, ingredient, that core ingredient of like, fun and joy is really missing from the show. That's true. And what's painful about the show is the way that they try and. And siphon it in with like really.

[Patrick Sandberg]

With Harry having a fucking bladder problem. And it just sad and fucking scary. And then like Anthony with his tyrannical, disturbing personality.

[Lauren Kramer]

I thought you were gonna say hair dye.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, I love Anthony.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I loved Anthony, you know, But Mario.

[Lauren Kramer]

King is wonderful too.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yes, of course. He's.

[Lauren Kramer]

The thing is, like, I love all these actors, of course, legend. And this is what I was, I guess alluding to earlier is that we're at this moment of austerity in the film and television business where people will do anything to simply be working. And I feel like there's something about. And just like that in its very premise of existing that is so deeply cynical that it just drenches everything about the show. And it's like, like it's it makes it, like, very miserable. Like, Natasha Stag wrote an essay about it and herself that I think everybody should read. It's a little harsh, but it's warranted. And she compares it to a sallow, like, humiliation ritual in which we're all complicit. Because Sex and the City was such a monument and such an important show, Obviously I don't have to tell the listeners of this podcast that so, like, this sequel series is too big and too bad to fail. It's like, even if it is bad, we will all watch it.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Correct.

[Lauren Kramer]

I mean, I actually wouldn't, but I think most people would watch it until the bitter ends, no matter how terrible it gets. So there are. It has an opportunity to turn itself around, which I think they thought they did, because in the initial season, I don't even know what season we're on, it all blurs together.

[Patrick Sandberg]

No one knows.

[Lauren Kramer]

But. But in its initial conception, it was completely pandering to what was going on socially in that moment. And it was, you know, driven by fear, primarily with making it all about diversity and pronouns and like, you know, bringing in the Che Diaz character and making Miranda queer. And it sort of everything felt like a reaction to what they thought the audience would want and what they think the audience would agree with politically, rather than what would be good for the story or for the show. And that place of fear it has not been able to, like, correct. And when you think maybe at least it's kind of toning itself down, like this week we get the autistic nephew of Liv Tyler's gardener.

[Patrick Sandberg]

That's right.

[Lauren Kramer]

It reinforces to me how much the show feels like an after school special. Like a classic after school special. Like what Strangers with Candy was making fun of is this tone, these politics, this type of dialogue, this type of acting. I think that now we're in a really dangerous place where we're normalizing it because we're watching it and shows like it, like Emily in Paris or like, you know, these other kind of like, frothy streaming female interest shows which have become so insipid that they completely undermine the intelligence of the audience.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Absolutely.

[Lauren Kramer]

Whereas Sex and the City at the time was like, it had grit, it was weird, it was funny, like it had nerve. It was stylish. It was. People were drawn to it for all of its kind of bumpiness. It wasn't this, like, smooth brained pill that you were being fed. Anyway, taking it all back, I understand why people are working on the show and why they all came back to do it because I, it feels like I said, like something that will succeed even in spite of itself. But that also makes it an exercise in being miserable watching it. I wasn't going to watch this season, but I knew that I was coming on the podcast and that's why I did. I was fully, you know, in Natasha's essay, she says, like, when does the show become so bad that you finally abandon watching it? And that for me was after last season. I was like, I don't need that. It's too dark, it's too sad.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I think I was saying to Chelsea, is there a comparable piece of fucking media in the culture that has done to its original fucking IP what and just like that has done to Sex in the City. Like I can't. Like I don't fucking Star wars. Like have all these Star wars.

[Lauren Kramer]

Some Star wars fans would say. But yeah, not to this degree, in my opinion. Yeah, I'm trying to think. Can you think of one?

[Chelsea Fairless]

People have always been making Jar Jar Binks, Che Diaz parallels from day one. I can't think of one.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Girl Meets World.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh my God.

[Lauren Kramer]

I mean, who would know? You know? How?

[Patrick Sandberg]

How?

[Lauren Kramer]

We'll never know.

[Lauren Garrone]

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[Chelsea Fairless]

I obviously want to talk more about. And just like that, we will do that on Patreon. But I need to hear your thoughts on this Howard Stern interview with Sarah Jessica Parker. We all watched it and I wanna play what is. I think the Most interesting clip that came out of it.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Let's hear it. But this is such a weird moment where he's having phone sex with you, and he's about to, you know, play with himself when he's talking to you, and he licks his hand.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I'm sorry, what?

[Patrick Sandberg]

He. He takes his tongue and he starts licking his hand, and then he plays with his penis. Did you. Do you know he did that in that scene? Cause you probably filmed it and did. Have you seen this scene at all?

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, I've not.

[Lauren Kramer]

Not. I've not seen that.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Is that really true? You really have not seen it?

[Lauren Kramer]

I have not seen it, no. I was shocked.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I can't comment on that. My lawyer has advised me not to comment on that.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Is that true?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I mean, I have no attorney.

[Lauren Garrone]

No, no.

[Patrick Sandberg]

But I mean, is it true that you're up to. You really have no knowledge of it? This is a crazy scene.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I haven't seen most of Sex and the City ever, and I haven't seen.

[Lauren Kramer]

And just like that, every now and.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Then, Michael Patrick will say to me, please watch episode. You know, So I don't know. This is the first I'm hearing about that.

[Patrick Sandberg]

It's crazy. Here's the thing. I love Sarah Jessica Parker. This woman is lying. This woman is lying. Are you telling me she's just finding out that Aiden whatever the fuck is the name of the actor.

[Chelsea Fairless]

John Corbett.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Corbett. That he licked his hand and touched his dick, that she's finding out about this for the first time on Howard Stern's show? There's no way in hell she hadn't. I believe she hasn't seen the show, and I pray to God she's never seen. And Jessica like that, you know, I hope she's never.

[Lauren Kramer]

But it would explain a lot.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

I wonder if she reads the scripts.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh, my God.

[Lauren Kramer]

She might have no idea.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Some actors only read their own scenes. People that really don't give a. I.

[Lauren Kramer]

Admire her honesty if she's being honest. You're saying she's lying?

[Patrick Sandberg]

I'm saying she must have heard from somebody before she's on Howard Stern that the character licks his hand, is touching his dick and everyone's talking about it online. Yeah, she's not hearing about it from Howard Stern for the first time.

[Lauren Kramer]

Her publicist may have said something.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Somebody must have said something to her.

[Chelsea Fairless]

For sure, like Andy Cohen or something.

[Lauren Kramer]

Playing along in this moment.

[Patrick Sandberg]

But what kills me the most, I under. You know, she goes on to explain why she hasn't watched herself on these shows. Because of vanity. Which then she corrects and says it's not vanity, it's that she would be paying attention to the wrong things and that she'd be self conscious and sort of losing sleep over, why didn't I bring more emotionality to this decision or that decision or whatever the fuck it is. But Sarah Jessica Parker, if you were on one of the most important television shows in the history of the fucking medium, are you telling me you wouldn't go back and watch these fucking shows? Like, out of respect for the show.

[Lauren Kramer]

The writers, the many actors she's friends with have also been on the show.

[Patrick Sandberg]

It's just that.

[Lauren Kramer]

Including Willie Garson.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

I just find that so it's odd.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Hard to believe with all the year, how long is. I believe it's 25 years later.

[Lauren Kramer]

I believe it.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Well, she hasn't.

[Lauren Kramer]

Yeah, I think there are a lot of actors that don't. But what I find interesting about this is that she's an executive producer on the show and she was an executive producer on Sex and the City as well. And that was a situation that was at the core of her dispute with Kim Cattrall. You know, who gets an executive producer credit. And Kim said, and you can correct me maybe that Kim said if she's an executive producer, we all should be. And that that was the dispute and why Kim didn't come back for another for a third film. Then they went and created and just like that, and made them all executive producers, which felt like a fuck you.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, for sure.

[Lauren Kramer]

A lot of actors who are executive producers on projects, specifically on television, not movies, they do it because then they can take a lot of credit when it's a success. They'll take credit for. How should I say this? Actors are liars. They just are. You should never believe anything an actor says. Kind of just as a general rule. I don't think that I'm bursting anyone's bubble.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, they're paid to lie, to be fair.

[Lauren Kramer]

Yeah. And it's. There's. They have PR narratives and they're campaigning for awards and they're going to say what they think they need to say to get people to like them or vote for them or whatever the case is. And I mean, the amount of stories I've seen celebrities tell that I know for a fact are not true is so. It's just so common and so vast that I don't even think anything of it anymore. Like, it doesn't even bother me. Like, when I see somebody doing it, I just know it's just the way that it is, it doesn't even faze me at this point. But sometimes the way the Internet reacts to it, I'm like, wow, everyone just buys everything that anybody says. But a lot of actresses. Where I'm going with this is that they will not. Actors and actresses will take a lot of credit for creative decision. Even, like, where the scripts went, the writing, like, directorial decisions, things that are. Wardrobe, whatever. Things that are not within their scope. So for a lead star of a show to say, I've never watched it, I think is kind of punk. Like, it's sort of like I feel like she's admitting something she maybe isn't even supposed to say.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I just find it hard to believe. I mean, if it's true, that's incredible. I just find it hard to fucking believe.

[Chelsea Fairless]

She's obviously seen some episodes here and there. She's at the very least gone to some of the premieres of Angela.

[Patrick Sandberg]

She's seen them all.

[Lauren Kramer]

Well, she has to do ADR for sure. Her personality scenes, when you.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I think that there is stuff that she hasn't seen. And she may be exaggerating a bit, but the context she gave for why she is this way is that she is basically traumatized from watching the dailies of Square Pegs. Like when she was a teenager and Howard Stern was like, were you self conscious about your appearance? And she was like, no, it was my performance. And as an actor, I get that. Like, don't watch that shit. It's not helpful for you. But as an executive producer of a show, I don't really think.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Not just any show.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. You can't produce something that you don't watch. And you can't produce a reboot of a show that you never watched the original show.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Not when that show is Sex and the City. Not when that show is that big. When it's that fucking big.

[Lauren Kramer]

Well, it makes you just wonder, what is the producer role? What does she do in that, as a producer? And in her case, I think it's that she shows up.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I think she has some sway with the plot lines of her character. I'm speculating that perhaps this historical romance novel seems like more like something that she would be into than the character.

[Lauren Kramer]

I feel like we've seen her engaging with. With the costume designers and being very involved in the process, which actors are a lot of the time.

[Chelsea Fairless]

She's always been very involved in the wardrobe, no doubt about it. But, yeah, it was surprising that she said that out loud just because she does have a producer credit on that Show.

[Lauren Kramer]

Something I wanted to say because I do work in this business. I do have to run the autistic boy again. I don't begrudge anybody a job. It's like you're making the show. Go for it. I find it doesn't hold a candle to the original. Well, I mean, which is, I guess, stating the obvious.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I have to make an effort to just remind my. You know, it's like being a kid and having that first realization, oh, my God, I'm gonna die and I'll be dead forever and ever and ever. I'll be dead forever. And you just can't think about that. That's a bit like, you know, this is not what happened after Sex in the City. This just can't be. This just can't be. I refuse. I can't do it. It's too spooky.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It is spooky. And we will talk more about. And just like that. And the Adam Friedland appearance on. And just after that. Since you guys are here, we need to talk about some other shit.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Great.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And I want to start with this Sabrina Carpenter controversy. First of all, do you guys care about Sabrina Carpenter? Is this a performer that. That speaks to you or not? I'm just curious.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I like that there are so many hits. Like it seems to be non stop hits, but I'm. But she's. I don't. I don't. I don't sort of. I don't die for her. No. But I'm happy for the success.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I agree with you. I don't die for her either.

[Patrick Sandberg]

But you die for it.

[Lauren Kramer]

Do I die?

[Patrick Sandberg]

Do you die for Sabrina?

[Lauren Kramer]

I think she's very talented. I like her as a performer. And the music is not for me, which is fine.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

It's just not something I would to like listen to.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

Which isn't even saying that it's bad. It's just not what I would put on.

[Patrick Sandberg]

It's not your thing.

[Lauren Kramer]

But I am happy for her.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Have you seen the music videos?

[Lauren Kramer]

I've seen a couple of them.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Like the one with Barry Kogan.

[Lauren Kramer]

Yes.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

In jail.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Fairless]

That was cute.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah. I think that it's. It's fun pop shit.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But she had this controversial moment this week, which she hasn't really had many since she got super famous around the album cover for her new album, which is called Man's Best Friend. And. And on the album cover, she is on her knees, kneeling in front of this guy, a anonymous man of some kind who is grabbing her hair. People are feeling a certain type of way about it. And it surprises me that this album cover is so shocking to people because this is like literally the plot of Eyes of Laura Mars. You know what I mean? Like, it's been this long that we've been.

[Lauren Kramer]

People that are upset know what that movie is.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay? They definitely don't.

[Lauren Garrone]

But still.

[Lauren Kramer]

Still, to me, it feels very classic fashion photography, for sure.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I feel like they actually kind of reined it in by not having her, like, wear a dog collar or do something with an actual dog, like the Chris von Vangenheim photos.

[Lauren Kramer]

You know, I will say that like this. I love the title man's best friend. I think it's hilarious, the, like, dog collar image. I think the photos are good. It was shot by Bryce Anderson, who's cool.

[Patrick Sandberg]

We love.

[Lauren Kramer]

You know, it was like. I'm trying to think if I know anybody else who worked on that. I think I do. Nicolas Desjardins did the production design on it.

[Patrick Sandberg]

It's like, you know what I thought was corny, though? And I hate this styling detail. I hate. She's wearing a ring or two rings with her initials sc. I am so tired of the fucking initial ring.

[Lauren Kramer]

It's like, Harry, your name on jewelry. I don't know who started that trend.

[Patrick Sandberg]

But you'll look, you'll see.

[Lauren Kramer]

You don't like her Carrie Bradshaw ass ring collection?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Do you just hate personalized jewelry in general?

[Patrick Sandberg]

Of course not. I love a nameplay. I love that shit. But I just think of like Alessandra Michele, Harry Styles hs and then after that, I feel like there's a Olivia Rodrigo shit. All of them were just doing the fucking initial rings. And I just find it corny.

[Lauren Kramer]

I need to look at it to see what you're talking about because I'm like, how could you make out?

[Patrick Sandberg]

Look, look at her hand.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. How could you even see anything?

[Lauren Kramer]

Yeah, you have an eye for detail. I'm realizing this from hearing your. And just like that reviews and also this complaint. I think it's great. It's. I. It's not very hardcore. It's. It's more. It's evocative, but it does. It makes me more interested in her because I think this is like, it's funny. It. It reveals her sense of humor and her kind of willingness to be risque in a way that I wasn't. Wasn't quite getting from. Just like pin up bathing suit type of stuff from the last record. You know, I think it's really bizarre that it's 2025 and that people find that objectionable Because I feel like that whole kind of vibe is very Instagram, like 2016 to me.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, I think it's an interesting image because it works on a Helmut Newton level. It's actually kind of more like Ellen Von Un or something, because it's not just.

[Lauren Kramer]

Or like a Stephen Klein outta.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yes, yes.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But there is a sense of playfulness with it, though, right? With her facial expression. Like, it's not just like this sort of steely sexuality. So I do think on some level it's like. It is kind of satire. Like, I think it's kind of saying, like, guys are shitty, you know, just because of the juxtaposition of the title and the image.

[Lauren Kramer]

She's poking fun at being, like, treated like an animal.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Exactly. And I feel like that is not something that has been picked up on, especially in the segment that I watched on the video earlier this week about this album cover. What is the critique? Yeah, the critique is that it glamorizes violence against women.

[Lauren Kramer]

What's the violence?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, the hair grabbing.

[Lauren Kramer]

Is that violence?

[Chelsea Fairless]

That it's a potentially degrading image that someone could see it and sort of like, not understand what it means?

[Lauren Kramer]

Is vaginal penetration violence?

[Patrick Sandberg]

Well, this is the whole thing.

[Lauren Kramer]

Finally, somebody on every outfit asks the real question. What would Andrea Dworkin say about this record cover?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I would love to know.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Can't Sabrina enjoy being grabbed by the hair?

[Lauren Kramer]

She's smiling in the photo.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, it seems like she's into it, but it seems like she's kind of poking fun at the whole scenario, you know, and good for her.

[Lauren Kramer]

The people that are upset by this, I don't know what they would have done if they were around for the sex book. Not to sound like it's 200 years old, but I'm like, I know this is so. This is the Kidz Bop version.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It's so true. And the fact that this conversation has been happening for so long about these same fashion photographers, really, you know? But yes, it's very. Sex book. I thought of that immediately. Although certainly way more tame than some of the shit Madonna got up to.

[Lauren Kramer]

I know that Sabrina has a single out that didn't land for me because I listened to it and I could.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I can't remember Man Child a new one.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It sounds like Casey Musgraves again, which I thought about the Please, Please, Please song.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Also, I feel like it's too soon for a new album cycle from her.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, I agree.

[Lauren Kramer]

That's a little true. I mean, that's. She's very productive.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I mean, Too productive.

[Lauren Kramer]

And I do think she's a good vocalist, and I think that her songs are well written. It's just. It's like, I can appreciate them, but it's just is. It hasn't, like, been the vibe that I personally go for. But seeing this album campaign, like, I would have probably done what I wanted to do with and just like that and just ignore it completely. But then now seeing this, I will probably listen to it. So I think that the album cover is doing its job in some sense. It's getting people talking about it, and it feels like a thing now.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I do feel like, as far as, like, this new crop of pop star gals, her thing feels a little bit more old school in its, like, pop formalist perfection. Whereas Chapel Roan stuff feels a little sloppier. She's not really doing music videos. She hasn't really released a music video since she became huge.

[Lauren Kramer]

Right.

[Patrick Sandberg]

You know, Chapel.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. That is pretty crazy when you think about it.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Like, that's not really her bag. Addison Rae.

[Chelsea Fairless]

So many music videos.

[Patrick Sandberg]

So many music videos. But it feels.

[Lauren Kramer]

You're welcome. No, I'm kidding.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Addison's thing, which is interesting, is, like, it's goofy and it's sloppy and it's not perfect in a way that Sabrina's thing feels so fucking tight and packaged and perfect, you know?

[Lauren Kramer]

Right.

[Patrick Sandberg]

So it's interesting. It's interesting. I feel like this is the post Charli XCX pop landscape of it all, which is sloppy and kind of funky and dirty feet is what makes Beyonce feel stiff now and feel sort of out of style or something.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, she's untouchable, certainly.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Of course. But you know what I'm saying, just.

[Lauren Kramer]

In terms of the recipe for pop success, I think is tension. Sexual tension. It's like. It's like, look at everyone who's done it, right. They all had it. It's like Whitney Houston. Pop perfection. Serious fucking edge. Like, her personal life. Not that that was, like, on purpose, but she had. There was a danger to her.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yes, there was.

[Lauren Kramer]

And.

[Patrick Sandberg]

But the attitude. The attitude.

[Lauren Kramer]

The attitude was insane. It was incredible. It's inspired me my whole life. It's Cher, same thing, you know, unfiltered personality. Then you have, like, Madonna, obviously, also being very unfiltered, very provocative, but then having these, like, very beautifully done videos and these, like, perfect songs. Britney Spears, there was, like, Britney at the gas station, and then there's Britney in the middle of Madison Square Garden in. And it's like you have both sides, and both sides are Exposed to the public, whether by design or not. It's like the messiness crept out with some of these people. And I think that Sabrina Carpenter, if we're still on that topic.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

All of the pop girls, it has been so pristine, and I think the execution has been pretty flawless. The rollout incredible. Like bulletproof pop songs.

[Patrick Sandberg]

That's right.

[Lauren Kramer]

So seriously produced. But also has the talent and the charisma to back it up. Up. But she's never had, like, a. That kind of messiness that you're talking about, and this is, like, maybe a glimmer of it, which I think is, like, perhaps something that she's being purposeful about. I think she sort of knows the formula, and I don't think. I don't know if it's because of Charlie or not, but I think that Charlie definitely exposed something about that tension because her music is very perfect if you listen to it, because it's so electronic. It has its own kind of pristine quality, like hyperpop does.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Sure.

[Lauren Kramer]

This time she made the lyrics very messy and confessional, and so that juxtaposition clicked in a way. And then also with her, her personality was able to be seen on a larger scale, which I think also impacted it. Anyway, this is just a theory I have. I just think you need a little bit of both. You need to be polished, and you also need to be messy.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Mm.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, Addison Rae is. Is fusing both of those things with the image that she's cultivating, certainly. But what do you guys actually think about the album that came out? I've listened to it a couple times through, but I'm not super well versed in it.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I think it's fun, and I think this. I mean, my favorite songs are the singles for them. I mean, I love Aquamarine, Diet Pepsi. I mean, New York is. I think it's a fun album.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Me too. It kind of sounds like Klonopin, you know?

[Lauren Kramer]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It sounds like the songs on in the Zone that, like. Like, weren't singles, but were just sort of slow and sexy.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Will Addison Rae have album number three? Album number four? I don't know. I don't know if I see that. I don't know. I think she'll have whatever the hell she wants. I just don't know if that's where this project is going.

[Lauren Kramer]

The world is her oyster.

[Patrick Sandberg]

That's right. That's right.

[Lauren Kramer]

Come touch the pearl Come touch the pearl I love Addison. I'm a huge fan.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I thought it was cool that the album. It's three fucking people and they're all women. It's not a fucking army of songwriters and producers. I think that's fresh as hell. I'm like, this is the thing. I don't know much about Addison Rae. She's a gorgeous girl next door. TikTok Queen Basic was my assumption. This is like a norm girl. This is just the assumption. I don't know shit about her. And then she's plugged in with like, you know, Mel and Dara and Ethan, James Green and Drake and Patrick and me and Patrick and Drake, Carr's boyfriend doing, you know, it's like, oh, my God. Okay. So she's like, it's amazing that she stuck with an interesting group of collab. Not to diminish her vision. I don't really know what the fuck it is, you know, but it's just when this could have gone a very different way.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, for sure.

[Lauren Kramer]

Well, I have another thing to expose. Another truth bomb to drop. Please tell us from the same cabinet as actors or liars.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah, yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

Who I love, love actors. Can't live without them. Can't.

[Patrick Sandberg]

But really quick, you did the Diet Pepsi video, right? Right.

[Lauren Kramer]

I worked on the diapason.

[Patrick Sandberg]

That's the best one.

[Lauren Kramer]

And the Aquamarines.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh, God. Okay. Those are the two best ones. The one with the pink hair on the beach is. I'm sorry, that's a video.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Is that the headphones on?

[Lauren Kramer]

Oh, I love that.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I like that.

[Lauren Kramer]

I like that video too.

[Chelsea Fairless]

See, I got into it. I love the song.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Well, the song's great, but I thought.

[Chelsea Fairless]

The video was fun.

[Lauren Kramer]

I liked that video a lot too. Oh. My point is because I've worked with a lot of pop stars, love them. It's been my privilege to be able to be near them and work with them and get to know some of them. Okay, let's name. Name. No. People give too much credit to the team. I think sometimes.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Let it out. Let it out.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Interesting.

[Lauren Kramer]

It really let them cook. It always, always comes down to the artist, okay. Whether the artist is blaming someone for something that happened or giving somebody credit for something that happened, whatever it is, it's always the artist. It's like when you are with. Whether you're with a major label or you're on an indie label table, no one is investing time, unpaid, into you being a thing. It's like you. You are. You are the architect of your own whatever. It's like the songs, the videos, the creative direction. You pick the people that you work with and they work with you, but they're executing your Vision. I think that even artists that have maybe found comfort in being called, like, industry plants or, you know, these ideas that these gay men are creating them, or like a Britney Spears being under somebody else's control. It's not exactly true. It's like everything Britney has done in her career, I believe, was her choice. I really think that she was behind a lot of that. Creative. And if not most of it. It's like, these people know what they want. They are very studied. They're smarter than they want people to think. Think. Because it's not relatable and, like, broad to be seen as, like, Machiavellian and.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

And whatever. But in Addison's case.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah. What. So what's her deal? Do you know? I mean, because wasn't there a single a few years ago that people were making fun of and then. Is that right?

[Lauren Kramer]

Oh, I thought people liked it. I don't know. I'm a little out to lunch sometimes, but with that kind of stuff. But I remember I. I got into her music once all the leaks were compiled and put into, like, an ep. Like, when that officially released was really the first. First time I listened. I know people were listening to it before.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

And I was like, this is really good. I loved it. I think the new music is even better with her being around her. Like, her and Lexi getting to know them was, like, just. It was so inspiring and so great. I don't know. It was wonderful. And there's a thing that happens, too, where oftentimes an artist will be like, well, I have, like, this. I have this creative director, and it's like their best friend or whatever or their cousin or. And you're kind of like, oh, God, like, who's this gonna be? Lexi Smith, who works with Addison on all her creative stuff, is a genius. Like, literally on zoom calls, I would be like, Everything she said, I was like, this girl is brilliant. I'm obsessed. And I just think that they're both really intelligent. They have really sophisticated taste. The references are incredible, obscure 60s film stills. The things that were coming through from the. It's like everything that happened came from Addison is what I'm saying. She's fully in the driver's seat of her thing, and that's why it is the way that it is. It's like everything that she's doing bears her essence completely. If you've. If you ever have the pleasure of meeting her, she's.

[Patrick Sandberg]

God bless her.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay. Now I'm really obsessed with her.

[Lauren Kramer]

Yeah.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I love it.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Love her.

[Patrick Sandberg]

And she's 14.

[Chelsea Fairless]

How old is she actually?

[Lauren Kramer]

I don't know.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Actually, no one knows.

[Chelsea Fairless]

You know, she's definitely looks 14.

[Lauren Kramer]

And it's the sort of thing where I only worked on a couple of the videos and Mel only worked on some of it. And it's like, then Dara came in and it was like, you know, it was sort of like, you don't have to work on. She doesn't need one person like steering what she's doing because it's all going to be very Addison no matter what it is.

[Patrick Sandberg]

She's 24.

[Chelsea Fairless]

24.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Born in 2000. October 6th. A Libra.

[Lauren Garrone]

Love it.

[Lauren Kramer]

I'm gonna get a cease and desist. She's like, I don't want people to know that I'm a real artist.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay. I want to move on to some other diva news.

[Lauren Kramer]

Woo hoo.

[Chelsea Fairless]

We gotta talk about Cola Scola's Tony win. I feel like it's such a dark time in the world right now and it just feels kind of bizarre when something like that happens that's so deserved but seems so far fetched.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I'm just so happy you just saw it because I saw you post about it.

[Lauren Kramer]

Yeah, I finally saw it. I was.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Did you die? Were you howling?

[Lauren Kramer]

Okay, so you didn't like it? I was like.

[Chelsea Fairless]

You'Ve seen it, right, Lauren?

[Patrick Sandberg]

Twice. I saw it at Lucille Lortel on Christopher Street.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, nice.

[Lauren Kramer]

Yeah. I just hadn't been to New York in a long time. It was just not my time in York. New New York didn't overlap with this play.

[Patrick Sandberg]

And I.

[Lauren Kramer]

And then Titus came in and was doing it and I was a little bit like, I missed it.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

Yeah. And then when the cast came back, I was going to New York for a wedding. I only had one extra night there. And I was like, this is it. Yes, it is. I'm finally gonna see oh Mary. And I asked John early if I should see it and he was very. What's really funny is that he didn't build up my expectations about it.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

And then afterwards I was like, what was that? And he was like, I didn't want to like oversell it. And I was like, I'm so happy you didn't. Because like, I was so surprised for the. I mean, my humor. Maybe not on podcasts, maybe on some old podcast, but my. My humor tends to be very stupid and offensive and crap profane. I had no idea how up it was going to be. And I was howling with laughter. I was dying. Even when the lights would just come up and she Would be over there on the couch. Couch, like, crouched. I would just burst out laughing like a pathetic, tragic, alcoholic woman. Is so funny to me. I will always love it. I want Miranda to hit the bottle again. If I'm being.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh, yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

Clear about. And just like that, I'm like, get her back.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Michael Patrick.

[Lauren Kramer]

We need Michael Patrick, if you're listening, relapse.

[Patrick Sandberg]

It's called a relapse.

[Lauren Kramer]

Two words, Relapse. I want Miranda on all fours drinking toilet water.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay.

[Lauren Kramer]

This is, like, where we're going. I'm like, oh, Mary. I was not prepared for how profane and fucked up it was. And so for it to be embraced by, like, the American theater wing. And in this crazy.

[Patrick Sandberg]

And a Pulitzer. A Pulitzer finalist.

[Lauren Kramer]

I know Cole a little. Mainly online.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

And so I filter all my comments to Cole through drop. And I was like, john, have Trey Parker and Matt Stone seen O Mary? Because I was like, those are the people that need to see it. Because I feel like I need Cole to do an arc on south park now after watching it. Reminded me of south park humor. It's that funny.

[Chelsea Fairless]

For sure. It's the kind of thing. I mean, I assume we've all seen Cole perform in smaller venues in New York and LA for years, so.

[Lauren Kramer]

YouTube.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, YouTube. Exactly.

[Lauren Kramer]

Small venues, like YouTube.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, my God, my voice is going. YouTube. Exactly. Yeah. It's just. It felt so insane to walk into that theater and, like, see the bust of them as Mary in the theater lobby.

[Lauren Kramer]

Well, I don't know what the women's bathroom was giving at the theater, but in the men's room of. Because there's only two genders. No, in the men's room of the Lyceum.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Of the Lyceum.

[Lauren Kramer]

The Lyceum. Men's room. Over at each urinal, there's a framed photo of, like. You know, when you're in these old theaters, they'll have framed photos of, like, the actors on stage of shows from the past, you know, the 90s. And it's like, there's, like, Bernadette Peters and she's, like, doing something.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

Of, like, actors from old productions with press clippings underneath of, like, quotes they were giving. But each one was Cole being a different character. And they were all so funny. Every, like, the details that Cole put into the picture, you would see when you go to take a piss.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah. Just there was. Yeah, there's something like that in the lobby of. Yeah. The Lucille Lortel. The necklace that they wore with the actress from the stage production when Lincoln was Assassinated.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, so good. It was like. It was like a cameo necklace.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Did you see that? What Cole wore to the Tonys?

[Lauren Kramer]

Oh, at the Tonys? I thought you meant in the play.

[Patrick Sandberg]

No, no, no, not at the play.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, at the Tonys without the Tonys.

[Lauren Kramer]

Oh, the Bernadette Peters outfit.

[Patrick Sandberg]

But the little necklace that they're wearing was this little cameo with the actress from the fucking. What the hell was the play?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I don't remember what the play is.

[Lauren Kramer]

But I don't know of the actress.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Who was also, I think, the producer of that play when Lincoln was assassinated. So that was the photo and the necklace and the wig was magnificent. The whole thing. David Moses. God bless.

[Lauren Kramer]

I also was really impressed by Conrad Ricamora, who played Abraham Lincoln.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, for sure.

[Lauren Kramer]

Because I had only seen him in, like, the Fire island movie, which is obviously a much more subdued part. I didn't know he had this in him to be this, like, furious, closeted homosexual. Abraham Lincoln. Also spectacular.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Spectacular.

[Lauren Kramer]

I loved it. It's still running.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yes, it is.

[Lauren Kramer]

So people should go see it.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yes, it is.

[Lauren Kramer]

It's. You're never gonna see anything like it again. No, I don't follow the Tonys very religiously. I don't respect your tongue. I don't respect theater. And as an art form off too many. I've been poisoned by too many musical. Bad musicals. I hate musicals. This is what I.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay.

[Lauren Kramer]

But bad Omari is not a musical.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It builds characters, though, to watch bad musicals.

[Lauren Kramer]

Whatever. I think Patti LuPone is a talentless act. I was on her side in the controversy. Well, we can. That's a different story.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But you're not getting into that.

[Lauren Kramer]

We don't need to get into that. I'm a Madonna fan. I'll say that about Patty. But anyway, I was like, oh, I don't follow the Tonys or really rate them, but watching it, I was moved to see Cole win. I was so happy. Happy. It felt like a rare moment where someone who deserves something actually got it.

[Patrick Sandberg]

That's right.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. It was beautiful. And I love the Bernardette Peters reference with the gown. And I went back and rewatched the clip of Bernardette winning for Annie get your gun, which is what that look was based on. And you know who presented Bernardette Peters with that Tony?

[Patrick Sandberg]

Who?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Sarah Jessica Parker and Matthew Broderick.

[Lauren Kramer]

No, I almost said Rosie o' Donnell. I swear to God.

[Lauren Garrone]

Close.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Did Telfar win the CFDA award?

[Lauren Kramer]

Whenever the hell that was, he has won them before.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Speaking of Natasha, speaking of fake awards, but this is. This Just felt like, you know, Natasha Stagg, in one of her fucking essays, I feel like, was talk, you know, mentions that, like the winner of that CFDA award that one year was, like, truly deserved. And I think it was top far. And there was this feeling of like, please God, let Cola Scola win, because it's going to be a win for like an entire fucking generation of creative people. And that's what it felt like.

[Lauren Kramer]

What I think is even more major than that, though, is not that it was this improbable thing that Cole won. It was like by the time that Cole won, it was an inevitability. Everyone thought that Cole was gonna win. So that is so special.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

Do you know what I mean? Yeah. So by the time it happened, it wasn't even a shock, but it was almost capping off this, like, incredible rise.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Absolutely.

[Lauren Kramer]

Which is so fun and rare. And I don't know if you guys watched the first act of the Tonys.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I didn't watch any of the Tonys.

[Lauren Kramer]

You did.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I watched the Tonys. Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

Like the. They do a pre show that's called first act.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, no, no, no, no.

[Lauren Kramer]

Which I learned about on. I was cleaning my house and I turned on YouTube and YouTube was like the red carpet of the Tonys. I didn't even know the Tonys were off. Yeah. So I turned it on. It was horrible. And. But then there was a live chat.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

On the television, which also alarmed me because I don't like that. And in the live chat they were like, go to Tubi if you want to watch the Tonys. They're on right now. And I went, huh? And so I had to download Tubi. And then I opened it and there was. The Tonys were fully going. But it was all the technical Tonys that they give out earlier in the night. And during that they gave the lifetime achievement award to Harvey Fierstein. Oh, and it was so incredible. Yes. And the speech was spectacular. I was crying, oh, my God, I gotta go. And I was like. And it was. They had a whole clip show going back his whole career.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Like, you know, why is that during the show?

[Lauren Kramer]

It should have been during the show because it was so major. But the thing is, but it from it was watching Cole win, I was like, this feels like a repeat of history in a way because you got to see, like, that was what it was like for Harvey. Beautiful back in the day. You know what I mean?

[Chelsea Fairless]

For sure.

[Lauren Kramer]

He was just this nobody funny voiced gay comedian. And like. Anyway, you guys should go find it. And watch it because it's worth watching.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I'm going to download Tubi.

[Chelsea Fairless]

See, it's sad because at the Tonys they don't always broadcast who gets the Lifetime Achievement Awareness Awards. Sometimes they do it during this ceremony. But it's like I remember, I don't know when this was. Maybe like six years ago. It's like John Cameron Mitchell got the Lifetime Achievement Award. And they did. Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

And they didn't before Harvey Fierstein.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Before Harvey Fierstein.

[Lauren Kramer]

I'd like to have a word.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But they don't actually air it during the show. It's like it comes back from commercial. It's like, oh, he won this.

[Lauren Kramer]

Yeah, yeah. It's weird. And the Oscar says that now too. I mean, they move them to the Governor's Awards, but it's like, I like the Lifetime Achievement speeches. That for me is a highlight. Of course, I wish that they would bring it back.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Especially with theater. It's like, we want to hear from these legends.

[Lauren Kramer]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Anyway, speaking of gay people, I think it's time for us to discuss Giuseppe. No, Pee Wee as himself.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Matt Wolf's beautiful new two part documentary about Paul Reubens that is is out now on Max. Guys, you all have Max. If you haven't watched this, you're crazy.

[Lauren Kramer]

It's the best thing I've seen.

[Patrick Sandberg]

It's so beautiful and painful. And I knew nothing about Paul Rubin's relationship with his great love guy. Did you guys?

[Chelsea Fairless]

How would we.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I don't know. I didn't even know he went to CalArts.

[Lauren Kramer]

And so beautiful too, in those photos of him.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, God.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh, come on.

[Lauren Kramer]

What is there to say? I like that you came prepared with notes. I didn't. I don't know. Well, it's just a mess. I feel like with our generation. I'm putting us all in the same generation. God knows how old any of us are.

[Patrick Sandberg]

We don't want to know.

[Lauren Kramer]

We'll never reveal. I was lucky to be a small child that was raised by Pee Wee's Playhouse like It was on TV when I was 2, 3, 4 years old. And while other losers were watching Mr. Rogers, that creepy faggot who wanted people to be nice to each other, there was an anarchist over on the other channel named Pee Wee Herman who was living in a fun house full of drug addicts where people like me learned to be maniacs. I don't think I would be the way that I am or the person I am without. Without Pee Wee's Playhouse. And it's crazy because we're all so narcissistic and selfish and we're like out here making our little albums and our TV shows and our podcasts and it's like we're not thinking about what children are watching.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I know, it's so wholesome, everything that he did. And I grew up on Pee Wee's Playhouse too. And Lauren and I actually went to the LA premiere of this documentary and I got so emotional, like seeing people from the cast there, like seeing Cherry.

[Lauren Kramer]

Oh, wow.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I mean, just the OGs from the show. I did not see Laurence Fishburne, but, you know, I saw Cherry on the red carpet. And also there was a lot of Paul's friends and family members there. Anyone that grew up with the show. It means something to you.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And this documentary is. Is so, it's so beautiful, but it's so deeply sad at the same time.

[Patrick Sandberg]

You know, I mean, something that was. I feel like I'm always starving for. I mean, because I really didn't know much about Paul Rubens. And like, here is this sweet, sweet, sensitive artist and grew up with, you know, a loving family, you know, with his. I mean, his gay sister, which I love. Living in Sarasota, Florida, around circus folk, going to that lion tamer's house and hanging out with these chimpanzees and him wanting to go to California and being interested in the Cockettes and maybe go to San Francisco and loving Paul Morrissey and Warhol films and just being a fucking freaky wonderful.

[Lauren Kramer]

Just like us. It's just like us.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I don't know, I just. I found it so deeply inspiring.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And the footage, we should say, is astounding because this man saved videos from his entire life, starting from when he was at CalArts and he was doing more performance art and video art and dorm rooms, bad self portraits in your dorm, which is just what you do if you go to art school.

[Patrick Sandberg]

You know his 10 person art, you know, at Cal Arts and it's David Hasselhoff and Katey Seagal in the class. God, and then the boyfriend Guy, who I cannot, I just can't get over. I can't get over their love affair. And he was this painter and so funny and gorgeous and how.

[Lauren Kramer]

Gave him the voice.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Gave him the voice. Mmm, buttery, chocolatey. You know, he stole that directly from Guy. It kills me. And then after his dad visited, it was like, all right, son, you need to make a decision. Like, are you gonna play house the rest of your life or are you gonna pursue your career? The relationship fell apart in whatever Ways it did. But Paul sort of swore to himself, and he says, like, I'm never doing this again. I am never going to get involved in a relationship like this again. I'm going to pursue my career because that I can control.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, I'm sure we've all had a breakup that's been that devastating that you do think, like, maybe never again is just the best way to. Way to operate, you know, And I get it. Because also, you can't be out in. In the entertainment industry at that time unless you're Harvey Fierstein.

[Lauren Kramer]

You still can't. Yeah, sorry.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

And as a children's entertainer, I think he had, like, a whole other thing to worry about, which the documentary gets into later with everything that happened to him, of course. But for me, it was also just like, I love documentaries.

[Patrick Sandberg]

LTW delivered.

[Lauren Kramer]

It's also like, I'm obsessed with the 80s. I'm obsessed with Beverly Hills. It's like, give me Beverly hills in the 80s. I want all of that footage that's like, heaven for me. It lures you in with. It's like you get to be in LA at this time where all of these incredible geniuses were, like, on the verge of making it, and you're hearing all of their stories. It has these, like, devastating moments, which are just sort of part of what I think. Think being in the business is sometimes. Like when Phil Hartman got on Saturday Night Live and left and how hard and devastating that was. And then their friendship suffered. And then later, they show an interview with Phil on, like, Arsenio hall or something, where he's. After the scandals have come out about Paul, and he's, like, kind of dismissing him in this, like, heartbreaking way.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yes.

[Lauren Kramer]

Which was devastating because I'm a huge Phil Hartman fanatic.

[Patrick Sandberg]

You know, Phil Hartman was my neighbor growing up. Murdered across the. When I say across the street, I mean across the street.

[Lauren Garrone]

Whoa.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I went into the house when it was for sale, and I saw this. I swear.

[Lauren Kramer]

Witnessed the murder.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I.

[Lauren Kramer]

The murder suicide.

[Patrick Sandberg]

My parents wouldn't wake up, so I. No, no. I went into the house when the house was on the market, and you could see this discoloration. You could see the discoloration on the wallpapered walls next to the fucking bed where blood was scrubbed away. I swear to God. I swear to God. Bryn Hartman. Yeah. We'd see her in the robe, the bathrobe.

[Lauren Kramer]

Whoa.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But I loved him so.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I loved Phil Hartman.

[Lauren Kramer]

He's one of my favorites of all time. Like, I'm always gonna be in love With Phil Hartman. One of my first crushes as a kid was Phil Hartman. But also this going back to that actor's lie. What's so crazy about that clip was that I feel like he was lying in that moment. Moment when he was speaking negatively about Paul. But I think what hurt him so much about that was not even that he thought that what he was saying was truly how he felt. It was that he would be willing to do that for his image in that moment is what's so hurtful about it.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, and didn't he literally call him a deviant, or am I misremembering?

[Lauren Kramer]

He was, like, nodding. He agreed that it was deviant, which.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Is crazy, because, granted, I have never been an adult theater playing. Really, I've never have.

[Lauren Kramer]

They're so major.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I don't think. Honestly, I don't think I have either.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But aren't you supposed to jerk off in there? Like.

[Lauren Kramer]

I haven't done that.

[Lauren Garrone]

No.

[Lauren Kramer]

But, like, there's. They don't really exist anymore, these theaters. So when there is one, it's kind of this crazy novelty. Like, I was out one night in the West Village. Yeah, there's one in the West Village. Oh, no. I think we were in Hell's Kids Kitchen. I don't know where we were. I was with my friend Zach. I'll give him up. He knew about it. He was like, oh, we gotta go. He's like, we gotta. Yeah, yeah, okay. He's like, we gotta go to the blue theater or whatever. Like the. You know, the. See some blue films. And he took me to this place. And you, like, pay an admission. There's, like, a weird guy in a window, and you walk back and they're like, do you want to drink? It's like cheap whiskey and, like, a solo cup. And then you walk in and it's a mo. An old, dilapidated movie theater, completely not up to code. You. You could probably die in there and have no lawsuit or repercussion. And there was a porno that was playing, and there were, like, a bunch of creepy guys in there jerking off. And I was like, this is the coolest thing I've ever seen.

[Patrick Sandberg]

No, that sounds incredible.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, I just thought that was, like.

[Lauren Kramer]

What you were saying. I stood in the back. I didn't sit down. I didn't even want to sit on the seats because I was being such a prissy.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Didn't you guys love. I mean, I love the resentment and the tortured relationship that Paul had with Pee Wee. How the distinctions that Pee Wee Herman has A star on the Hollywood Boulevard, not Paul Rubens, you know, and that obviously bothered him. And him feeling very unsung over the fact that Tim Burton got all of the credit as being the sort of creative visionary behind the first film and feeling like I have to prove myself as this writer and as this inventor. I mean, I live for those kinds of hauntings, you know, by. It's like, my God, he was, you know.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, yeah, his identity was completely.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Til they happen to you Till it happens to you. Happens to you. Happens, Happens to you. You remember that one? That's Gaga dying in war.

[Lauren Kramer]

When that talent happens to you, you're the only person that knows that song.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Wait, now I know what you're talking about. Mental illness right there.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Sorry. Would someone just fucking give Diane words?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oscar. She has two now.

[Patrick Sandberg]

She does.

[Chelsea Fairless]

She got the honorary one this year.

[Lauren Kramer]

She hasn't won one.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I don't think she's won.

[Chelsea Fairless]

She got the honorary one the same year she won for some other song.

[Lauren Kramer]

No, no, no, no, no.

[Chelsea Fairless]

What am I thinking?

[Lauren Kramer]

She only has the honorary.

[Chelsea Fairless]

She only has the honorary. Okay, yeah, I'll take your word for it.

[Lauren Kramer]

The Phantom of the Kodak Theater. That's what we call her. She's living upstairs in the rafters.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I'm obsessed.

[Lauren Kramer]

Comes down every year.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Obsessed. I think I saw her at Maxfield once. God, that was exciting.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, that's the perfect place.

[Patrick Sandberg]

She really is.

[Lauren Kramer]

Oh, it's like when bad things happen to you in Hollywood, you can be so devastated, like someone betrays you or turns on you, or I'm like speaking from some experience, which I won't name names, but, like, you know, it's things, it's a business, it's up, it does up things to you. And then when they happen, you think it's the worst thing in the world. And then you watch showbiz documentaries and you're like, no, I'm just in it. And that's what that means. You know, this type of stuff happens to everybody. It's good to have some perspective. I, I, what was really upsetting about watching the documentary was how sensitive he was. And I wished that I was friends with him because I would have maybe been able to, I don't know. I'm friends with a lot of artists and I'm used to talking to them about uncomfortable things and trying to give them perspective and get them out of their own mind sometimes. And it does seem like he isolated because, particularly, like the things that he went through invited like a glaring public lens and were of a tabloid Nature.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah. I wasn't even aware of the sort of raid and, like, the accusations that came later of child pornography. I mean, I don't even. I didn't really remember that stuff.

[Lauren Kramer]

Oh, I remember because when he died, I, like, posted something about it, and I got a few assholes being like, he was a blah, blah, blah. And I was like. Like, go yourself. Like, I couldn't even believe it. People are so rotten. People anyway. But what. One thing I loved about it, and Natasha actually wrote about this in her. And just like that essay she was comparing and just like that to the peewee documentary as being, of course, antithesis.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

But that, in a way, he. What's so special about the documentary is that he got the last word and it was. When it was too late for anybody to. To apologize to him. Yeah, but kind of a win. It's, like, kind of a win.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But so sad listening to his last voice memo and all of that. And. Yeah, it's just. It's so sad. And it was so fascinating to see in this documentary how much was exposed about the relationship between Paul Reubens and Matt, you know, and that tension and how he really, like, was so wigged out from losing control of his own narrative and his own story that, like, he couldn't conceive of just letting someone make a documentary about him. And I get that.

[Lauren Kramer]

Well, most celebrities don't. They have to control everything now. You know, the executive produced their own documentaries, and it's why you get this kind of flattened, unaffecting portrait most of the time. And this one, I think, was so phenomenal because Matt did have the final word with it. And I think that's so important when you're documenting somebody. But obviously, it's very rough for the subject, But I like how it was all just kind of out there.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah.

[Lauren Kramer]

Surface.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. It was really beautiful.

[Lauren Kramer]

It's a beautiful documentary. It's so inspiring in every way. It, like, reminds you, like, why entertainment matters, what it can do. It was so instinctive of him. Jim Henson had this quality as well, of, like, wanting kids to realize it's okay to be ridiculous or to cause mayhem. To have, like, a little bit of an anarchic streak, to not respect adults or formalities or, like, these systems that are gonna be forced on you and force you to be miserable. It was, like, so liberated and punk.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Yes.

[Lauren Kramer]

I don't know the landscape, but I don't feel like kids have shows like that now unless they have cool parents that make them watch Pee Wee's Playhouse. The entire show is on. Max. I saw after watching the documentary because it recommended it.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I like the way that he spoke about. It's like, I have this opportunity in the way that Howdy Doody or whatever these shows were that he was completely obsessed with as a child. It's like, I can be an entry point for these kids or whoever's watching into this total depraved lifestyle. Like, the power of imagination is everything, and I'm gonna liberate myself and the viewers, you know, in doing this thing.

[Chelsea Fairless]

The footage of him wearing heels.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh, God.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Was so good. So major, so subversive, so visually perfect.

[Patrick Sandberg]

What I'll never get over are the photos of him in high school with his best friend. I forget her name. You know, taking those beautiful, glamorous images of himself. And then he wanted her to take photos of him and his friends. And then his dad was like, you know, one of those guys is gay. He's like, yeah, I know.

[Lauren Kramer]

It was very validating to get to the segment about the Christmas special for me.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yes.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Grace Jones.

[Lauren Kramer]

That was so important to me when I was little. It was, like, very. It's so embedded in my subconscious mind. And when you're young, you don't think about things like box office or reviews, you know? So, like, I didn't know. Big for yourself. I didn't know Big Top Pee Wee was a flop. Like, I didn't know that it was considered a bad film.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Me neither.

[Lauren Kramer]

Like me, that was, to me, another classic. So, like, seeing that whole story and that his way of recovering from that was this Christmas special that he was so proud. The Christmas special. It made me so happy that I admired the Christmas special for so long, which also this Christmas, parents who are listening, make your kids watch the Peewee Christmas special. They're incredible cameos galore.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It's so good.

[Lauren Kramer]

Cher, Grace Jones, Oprah.

[Chelsea Fairless]

This truly is the man that raised us.

[Patrick Sandberg]

He scared me as a child, that Peewee that you're like, not me. No, I love him.

[Lauren Kramer]

You're like, I like Mr. Rogers. That homophobic man, Mr. Roger.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay, we could talk about Peewee forever, but we have to wrap things up because we have more. And just like that.

[Lauren Kramer]

I'm not done. I'm not done. Peewee was also sexy. Paul Rubens was so hot.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Well, he was.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, he was.

[Lauren Kramer]

I mean, all the footage of him at the Groundlings doing those shows, I'm like, what a superstar. That must have been so crazy to be there with him.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh, my God.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But also the. The sets from the original, like, Peewee Herman stage show.

[Patrick Sandberg]

I know. So bonkers that artist's name.

[Lauren Kramer]

I love how he was best friends with Elvira. Oh, God.

[Patrick Sandberg]

So cool.

[Chelsea Fairless]

So cool. Debbie Mazar.

[Lauren Kramer]

Oh, my God, I love a beard. Love story.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I know.

[Lauren Kramer]

I'm a sucker for it. Loved Maestro and she was a beard until the end.

[Patrick Sandberg]

She really was. She was speaking to the camera. Was like. Like he had not come out.

[Lauren Kramer]

Really a beautiful relationship.

[Patrick Sandberg]

She didn't get the phone call that she could just admit they weren't.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No. She's such a real one for that.

[Lauren Kramer]

She's so cool. All right, we can drop it. We're basically just rehashing the documentary that everybody should watch. We are so worth watching.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Everyone go watch this movie. Lauren, Patrick. Thank you.

[Lauren Kramer]

Nominated.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, yeah. Nominated.

[Lauren Kramer]

Oh, it's Emmy eligible.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Oh, it's winning. It's winning.

[Lauren Kramer]

That's my number one Emmy pick of the year. As the pee Wee. As himself.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Documentary should have been longer.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I'm with you, Lauren, Patrick. It was so beautiful having you both here. Thank you so much.

[Patrick Sandberg]

Thank you. Thank you, Lauren, for having that baby so we could get back on this fucking show.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And guys, if you want more, Lauren and Patrick, come over to Patreon. We will be talking even more about and just like that, if you can believe it. It also, guys, next week my wife Tatiana will be joining me on the show. We are going to do a mini hotline episode. So please call into the hotline with relationship questions, fashion questions, basically stuff that is not related to. And just like that. Although we still do need those. And just like that calls. But anyway, we will be back next week. Thank you again, Lauren and Patrick. Bye. Day.