261: On Love Story, Wuthering Heights, Pillion

Summary

Podcast Summary: Every Outfit

Episode 261: On Love Story, Wuthering Heights, Pillion

Date: February 20, 2026
Hosts: Chelsea Fairless & Lauren Garoni

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Overview

In this densely packed and highly researched episode, Chelsea Fairless and Lauren Garroni dive deep into three central pop culture artifacts captivating their fashionable, pop-culture-obsessed listenership: the new Ryan Murphy TV series “Love Story” (formerly “American Love Story”), Emerald Fennell’s film adaptation of “Wuthering Heights,” and the queer BDSM romance film “Pillion.” True to form, the hosts bring a blend of sharp wit, cultural context, fashion commentary, and personal anecdotes, framed with their signature mixture of irreverence and expertise. The conversation also veers into Sex and the City lore, 90s New York nostalgia, and the complexities of adaptation—both in style and substance.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. “Love Story” (Carolyn Bessette & JFK Jr.)

[03:13–29:38]

• Show Premise & Fashion Commentary

  • Chelsea and Lauren are both pleasantly surprised by "Love Story," especially after initial skepticism.
  • The setting evokes nostalgic, glossy 90s New York. Chelsea:

    “If there was some sort of, like, VR experience where I could just live inside this show, I would. I'd be like one of those Ready Player One people.” (03:41)

  • Intensive research around the real Carolyn and JFK Jr. inspired the episode:

    “I have never had so many notes for an episode. I don't think I've ever done so much research...” – Lauren (01:56)

• Costume Drama Behind-the-Scenes

  • The original costume designer was replaced after internet backlash; Rudy Mance (of Capote Swans fame) stepped in, restaging previously filmed scenes with more authentic wardrobe.

    “That gives me so much anxiety.” – Chelsea (05:26)

  • Authenticity achieved via collector’s clothing and precise recreation.

• Casting & Performances

  • Notably strong and fresh performances from Sarah Pidgeon (Carolyn) and Paul Anthony Kelly (JFK Jr.):

    “I like that he's unknown. I like that we don't have to see a known actor transform into this person that we're all so familiar with.” – Chelsea (17:38)

  • Naomi Watts as Jackie O is highlighted as the most “Ryan Murphy” touch, but the portrayal is more melancholy and subtle than expected.
  • Dree Hemingway’s portrayal of Daryl Hannah prompts debate over character writing versus actor delivery.

    “The way that she is portrayed is absolutely batshit. ... The show suddenly becomes Fatal Attraction.” – Lauren (24:00) “If I was Daryl Hannah I would be suing them for defamation.” – Chelsea (26:30)

• Production & Aesthetics

  • Production design (by Alex Djerando) is praised for its Calvin Klein-influenced minimalism and use of real NYC locations.
  • Lauren muses on the fictionalization vs. historical accuracy, referencing Elizabeth Beller’s biography and discrepancies between book and series, such as the manner/setting of Carolyn and JFK Jr’s first meeting (28:00).

• Cultural Resonance: Paparazzi, Nostalgia, and Sex and the City

  • The hosts reminisce about the simultaneous cultural trauma of Princess Diana’s and JFK Jr’s deaths and the 90s paparazzi:

    “They were abusive, I remember, towards celebrities in the 90s. ... They were tripping celebrities, taunting them to get a bad reaction.” – Lauren (15:31)
    “But also JFK and Carolyn were just on a different fame level…” – Chelsea (15:58)

• Sex and the City Connections

  • Social world overlaps: Candace Bushnell’s satirical 90s article about Carolyn Bessette, models and actors who dated both her and Bushnell, and JFK Jr’s brief romance with SJP.
  • On fandom speculation that Carrie is “coded” as Carolyn Bessette:

    “Other than [the apartment], to me, she's the polar opposite of Carrie. To me, she's Natasha, not Carrie.” – Chelsea (30:25)

  • The legendary, catty “Spoiled in the City” article (32:00).
  • Intertwined NYC nightlife, social circles, and casting trivia.

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2. “Wuthering Heights” (Emerald Fennell’s adaptation)

[47:43–67:06]

• Film’s Reception & Aesthetic Approach

  • Both hosts appreciate the film’s mainstream, blockbuster-for-women approach, even while recognizing its intentional departures from source material.
  • Lauren, a fanfic veteran with no attachment to the book, “fucked with" the film’s heightened, stylized approach (47:43).

    “I fucked with the movie.” – Lauren (48:17)

  • Chelsea: “This is a blockbuster for women. ... I'd rather watch this than Deadpool or Spider-Man, all the other shit that they make.” (48:17)

• Fidelity & Adaptation Choices

  • Discussion of departures from the novel, especially in character (absence of brother Hindley, elimination of later generations/ghost elements).
  • Both hosts agree that, having little connection to the source material, they’re unbothered by Fennell’s liberties.
  • Lauren: “Why does it have to be an adaptation of this book? Why couldn't it just be an original story inspired by…?” (60:55)

• Sexual Politics & Chemistry Issues

  • Disappointment at lack of steamy sex scenes or real erotic tension, despite the film’s marketing:

    “I was promised fucking and kinky sex. I got none of that shit.” – Chelsea (52:23)
    “Jacob Elordi and Margot Robbie don't really have chemistry. I believe them as siblings. They have sibling energy.” – Lauren (55:51)

• Costume & Production Design

  • The intentionally artificial, stylized sets are compared to old Technicolor films—a highlight for both.
  • Critique of “cheapness” in certain costume choices (iridescent pink dress, face gems).
  • Lauren: “She very intentionally made this movie to look the way that it did…” (62:15)

• Whitewashing & Blind Casting

  • Nuanced discussion of the film's choice to cast Jacob Elordi as Heathcliff and the broader conversation about racial representation in adaptations.
  • Chelsea cites Refinery29’s article: Emerald Fennell “is not the correct director to tackle the racial dynamics of this story” (63:39).

• Comic Relief & Supporting Performances

  • Appreciation for Alison Oliver’s portrayal of Isabella and the film’s subtle, dark humor (mushroom and flower gifts, 65:13).

• Final Thoughts

  • Both acknowledge the film’s visual flair and entertainment value but maintain it “edged us” without a satisfying climax (literal and figurative).

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3. “Pillion”

[67:16–82:56]

• Plot & Approach

  • Queer dom/sub romance between Alexander Skarsgård (Dom) and Harry Melling (Sub), set in contemporary UK among a motorcycle subculture, based on Box Hill (2020).
  • The hosts attended a Q&A with lead cast and director Harry Lytton, whose adaptation process is discussed (originally conceived as Roman-era, then updated to 1970s, then present day) (69:45).

• Why It Works

  • Skarsgård's casting as Dom is “inspired”; Harry Melling as Sub is “perfect”—the film smartly refuses to glamorize the dom lifestyle and centers a pathos-rich, deeply human perspective.
  • Lauren:

    “He finds out he's just a really good sub and that brings him a lot of joy and contentment...” (70:22)

  • Chelsea: “I would last not even 24 hours in a sub dom relationship, or at least this one that is Depicted...” (71:34)

• Realism & Authenticity

  • Use of actual London kink community extras gives the film credibility and “the right piercings, the right clothes” (77:12).
  • The domestic realities and compromises of 24/7 sub life—no bed privileges, relentless chores—foregrounded to strong comic effect.

• Sex Scenes & Erotic Content

  • Both appreciate the film’s matter-of-fact approach to portraying sex, nudity, and BDSM; standout moment:

    “...that scene you kind of realize all the subs are laying on tables waiting to get fucked by their doms when they feel like it. So good. I loved that.” – Chelsea (78:45)

  • Praise for Skarsgård’s “pierced prosthetic dick” and inventive ways the film shows male nudity (76:34–77:12).

• Chemistry & Character Dynamics

  • Melling’s “character actor” appeal is essential for believability; Skarsgård’s dom is “weird, if not weirder” but gets by on looks (74:17).

• Broader Reflections

  • Pillion’s success compared to Wuthering Heights: “Pillion is better than Wuthering Heights. It just is.” – Chelsea (81:00)
  • Both recommend the two films as a double feature.

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4. Additional Notable Quotes & Moments

• Fashion & Vintage Shopping

  • The RealReal is lauded for making it easy to buy and sell Carolyn Bessette-inspired minimalist clothing (“truly, there's nowhere else that I can Shop like this.” – Chelsea, 46:01).

• Pop Culture Weirdness

  • Chelsea introduces Sarah Jessica Parker’s infamous “Let’s Have a Kiki” performance on Glee:

    “Let’s drop in some of the audio…” [79:37–79:51]

  • Lauren: “It makes me feel like I'm on a TJ Maxx Pride float.” (80:49)
  • Chelsea: “Second term Obama was crazy.” (80:55)

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Timestamps for Key Segments

• 03:13 — First “Love Story” impressions
• 04:39 — Costume designer drama
• 16:21 — Paparazzi, fame, and 90s New York
• 24:00 — Daryl Hannah’s wild portrayal
• 29:44 — Sex and the City/Carolyn Bessette connections
• 47:43 — Wuthering Heights: expectations vs. reality
• 55:13 — Chemistry, sexiness, and adaptation issues
• 60:55 — Why adapt the book at all?
• 63:39 — Discussion of race and casting
• 67:16 — Pillion: first impressions
• 70:22 — Joy and authenticity of sub/dom life
• 74:57 — Parents' reaction subverts trope
• 77:12 — On-the-nose “dick scene” appreciation
• 78:45 — All the subs on tables: “so good”
• 81:00 — Pillion is better than Wuthering Heights
• 79:17/85:01 — SJP/Glee “Let’s Have a Kiki” tangent

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• Fashion, Pop, Nostalgia:

  “Guys, I learned something truly spooky recently, which is that the average person eats a credit card's worth of plastic every single week. This grosses me out to no end.” – Chelsea (22:09)

• On Daryl Hannah:

  “The way that she is portrayed is absolutely batshit.” – Lauren (24:00) “If I was Daryl Hannah, I would be suing them for defamation.” – Chelsea (26:30)

• On Sex and the City Parallels:

  “To me, [Carolyn] is Natasha, not Carrie.” – Chelsea (30:25)

• On Wuthering Heights' Adaptation:

  “This is a blockbuster for women.” – Chelsea (48:17)

• On Emerald Fennell:

  “She edged us.” – Lauren (67:01)

• On Pillion:

  “He finds out he's just a really good sub and that brings him a lot of joy and contentment in his life.” – Lauren (70:22) “If you think that Mr. Big is emotionally withholding, like, wait until you see this Alexander Skarsgard character.” – Chelsea (72:41) “Pillion is better than Wuthering Heights. It just is.” – Chelsea (81:00)

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Conclusion

Every Outfit delivers a lively, deeply-researched yet chatty episode examining the interplay between fashion, pop culture mythmaking, and sexuality as refracted through current TV and film. Whether debating the minutiae of 90s fashion, untangling the webs connecting Carolyn Bessette and Sex and the City, or evaluating the sincerity and kink quotient in modern romance films, Chelsea and Lauren offer both the analytical depth and informal banter that define the podcast.

If you love pop culture, fashion, adaptation discourse, or just want to know whether “Love Story” or “Pillion” is worth your screen time, this episode is essential—and entertaining—listening.

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Listen if you want:

• Smart, spicy takes on the Carolyn Bessette-JFK Jr. TV series
• Fashion and pop nostalgia, especially around Sex and the City
• Witty analysis of adaptation, eroticism, and authenticity in current cinema
• Vintage shopping, Glee-era cringe, and queer cinema recommendations

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(For further discussion—NYFW, Marc Jacobs, America’s Next Top Model doc, and the hosts’ VIP favorite sex scenes episode—join their Patreon or Apple subscriptions!)

Transcript

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[Lauren Garoni]

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[Chelsea Fairless]

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[Lauren Garoni]

Hi, I'm Lauren Garoni.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And I'm Chelsea Fairless.

[Lauren Garoni]

And welcome back to the Every Outfit podcast. You know, Chelsea, we've been doing the podcast for almost five years. Actually, next week will be our fifth anniversary, and there are some episodes where we've come in and we've been like, you know, I actually don't have any notes for this episode. We just shoot the. I have never had so many notes for an episode. I don't think I've ever done so much research for an episode. But before so much research.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Short of actually reading Wuthering Heights.

[Lauren Garoni]

No, let's not get crazy now. Did we both have months in preparation to watch all 11 adaptations of Wuthering Heights and read the book? Yes, but we didn't. You know why? We were too busy on the R slash John and Carolyn beset subreddit. Oh, just me.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, I thought you were going to say R JonBenet. And I was like, yes, actually, that is where my time went.

[Lauren Garoni]

I did feel like you this week because I did discover the John and Carolyn subreddit. And I can't exactly say I'm a truther because there's no real conspiracy about them. There's just a lot of information.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, I've been on the John and Carolyn Reddit for a while now.

[Lauren Garoni]

Oh, really?

[Chelsea Fairless]

That Candace article is what got me there to begin with. But we'll get into that.

[Lauren Garoni]

So we have, of course, watched the first three episodes of Not American Love Story. It's been retitled Love Story, I guess, because perhaps maybe next season they want to take it international.

[Chelsea Fairless]

True.

[Lauren Garoni]

What do you think?

[Chelsea Fairless]

What do I think of the show? I'm obsessed with the show. I could have cried when the third episode ended. And just for clarity, we've only seen the first three episodes. The fourth one comes out today. But I just want to live in this world because this is the New York that I fell in love with via magazines, via shows like Sex and the City. And if there was some sort of, like, VR experience where I could just live inside this show, I would. I would be like one of those Ready Player one people.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah, this tweet really got me from Shaharan Love Story. How does it feel to be aggressively pandered to with a show that resurrects a pair of corpses to make them act out the collective fantasy of their romance in 90s New York with cocktail twins, needle drops, and Naomi Watts's Jackie. Oh, it feels amazing. The Cocteau twins drop got my ass.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I think the music supervisor is killing

[Lauren Garoni]

it and seemingly has endless money.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, no expense was spared with this production, which I appreciate, because especially when you're telling a story about these very fancy, wealthy people. You can tell when the budget isn't good. It doesn't look correct. And this looks correct.

[Lauren Garoni]

Well, do we want to jump into the fact that the. The Internet successfully bullied this show into firing the costume designer and getting a new costume designer?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I believe that we did talk about that when it happened, but yes, thank God. And the costume designer is great.

[Lauren Garoni]

The costume designer is Rudy Mance, who worked on the Capote Swan series. I couldn't find who the original costume designer is. I think it's probably pretty mean to out them totally, but I'm not sure why they didn't go with Rudy Mance to begin with. And Rudy Mance had no T. Like you usually have months, if not weeks, probably six weeks of pre production. They shut down for the July 4th weekend and he had a long weekend to get this shit together.

[Chelsea Fairless]

That gives me so much anxiety.

[Lauren Garoni]

There's a Vanity Fair article that discusses this, but he was able to find a collector who is a Carolyn Bessette fanatic. And while they couldn't authenticate if the pieces this collector had, the ones actually worn by Carolyn Bassett, I doubted, but she got those pieces that Carolyn was photographed in.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Right.

[Lauren Garoni]

So Prada pieces, Yoji pieces, and then some of the stuff they just recreated.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, I saw they had to recreate that one ruffled Yoji jacket and seems like they did a pretty decent job.

[Lauren Garoni]

But also those initial paparazzi shots that people lost their minds over. They went back and refilmed all of that stuff with the new costumes.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, thank God they course corrected because imagine we would be sitting here hating on this show.

[Lauren Garoni]

I do feel like it bears mentioning why a lot of people went in ready to hate this show and have come out of the first three episodes being like, I love it. Question mark. While this is a Ryan Murphy produced show, he is not the showrunner. A guy by the name of Connor Hines is the showrunner. Thus far he's written all the episodes. I'm not sure how many of the episodes he wrote, but. But you can tell the difference between a Ryan Murphy authored show like an All's Fair and the beauty versus, I mean, a lot of the American offshoots, American Crime Story and now American no longer American but Love Story are authored by other people and they're just under his production company banner. Honestly, I feel like the most Ryan Murphy thing about this show is Naomi Watts as Jackie.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, that's true. Although she's not mean enough for it to be like fully campy.

[Lauren Garoni]

She needs to be meaner to Daryl Hannah.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I think she was pretty mean to Daryl Hannah, but I'm just saying the character isn't exactly a caricature like I would expect from a normal Ryan Murphy show.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah, you're sort of damned if you do, damned if you don't. Portraying Jackie O. I say this as if I'm someone who has portrayed Jackie O. The voice is inherent to portraying her, but the voice is so unnatural. Jackie O's natural way of speaking.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Totally.

[Lauren Garoni]

And there's not that many, to my knowledge, portrayals of Jackie O at this age, like in the last years of her life.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Totally. But I do think they make her look sadder and more pathetic than she actually was. Like, she also had a full boyfriend when she died, who I think is

[Lauren Garoni]

just shown in the background unspeaking in the first few episodes.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. At the wake. I think that the way that she's portrayed is very opposite from how we see her in our heads.

[Lauren Garoni]

How do you see her?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, I think of her as someone that's the definition of strength, for example.

[Lauren Garoni]

Okay.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And that's just based on sort of how important and symbolic she is in American culture.

[Lauren Garoni]

That's very true. I wonder if the way they're portraying Jackie. Oh. Is because while this show was in development, Connor Hines and Ryan Murphy were developing this series since 2021. They did take a break because they didn't really understand Carolyn Bessette, because she hardly gave public interviews. I mean, she posed for a few photo shoots, but she was an incredibly private person. And it wasn't until.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Did she give interviews at all. I don't think she did. I don't think she gave one.

[Lauren Garoni]

I think, basically. And Sarah Pigeon, who plays Carolyn Bassette, which we'll get into in a second, has said. I mean, the only clip you really see of her pre JFK is that fashion file video of her backstage at a Calvin Klein show with a Polaroid camera.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Right.

[Lauren Garoni]

It wasn't until 2024, when Elizabeth Beller released a biography called Once Upon a Time, the Captivating Life of Carolyn Bessette Kennedy, that they felt like they had a window into who she was as a person. And they continued developing the show, which Jackie O Is spoken about in the book. But I wonder if. Because that is their point of view is through Carolyn's eyes. That is why we see Naomi Watts portray Jacqueline Kennedy in a very particular way.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I mean, I guess I have no idea what she's actually like. I think of her as being like her Warhol.

[Lauren Garoni]

You don't think that she's. Before her death, was smoking, burning letters, listening to the Camelot soundtrack, dancing.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I hope she wasn't listening to that. I'm sure she was. Burning letters.

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[Lauren Garoni]

So while I didn't read Withering Heights for the podcast, I did listen to the audiobook. Or I started to listen to the AudioBook of Elizabeth Beller's biography of Carolyn Bassett. I actually stopped listening when I had gotten to a place where the episodes hadn't gotten and in my head I was like, I don't want to spoil it. So I can get into the discrepancies even in these first few episodes. But before I do that, I just wanted to get your opinion on how the series begins. Which it does that streaming series trope where we start at the very end and then go backwards.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It doesn't bother me. We know how they died.

[Lauren Garoni]

Well, we know how they died. I wonder how many people are watching this show blind who don't really have an understanding of who these people are.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I feel like that's probably the one thing they do know about them.

[Lauren Garoni]

I'm of two minds about that because usually for regular streaming shows, they do it so they don't lose your attention, where it's like something shocking happens, like someone's murdered and then it's like nine months earlier. But I think that this is used effectively because you're seeing Carolyn Bassett on the last day of her life, as it turns out. But just the self assuredness of her has been worn away from the paparazzi as shown in that scene where she's getting her nails done and they're her signature red and she at the last second wants it to be nude.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Right. We also don't see the plane going down, so it's not that dramatic.

[Lauren Garoni]

You just see it taking off in the sky. I am going to hope and I believe that they have enough restraint to not show them in that little single engine airplane at night in the fog and then they feel a bump like, I hope we don't get that scene.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, I wonder. I think they probably will avoid that.

[Lauren Garoni]

I also wasn't aware until very recently that they were separated at the time that they had boarded the flight for the wedding that they were going to.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Babes, there's so much Kennedy lore for you to catch up on. See, I was a Kennedy freak at the time. And I remember like we when the plane was first missing, I found out about this because it was my friend's birthday and I was like 15 and I had stayed up all night like smoking cigarettes and drinking vodka and we decided to finally go to sleep and whatever was on TV was like interrupted by the search for the plane, which lasted for a couple hours before they found the plane. And it was just one of those things that I will remember for the rest of my life.

[Lauren Garoni]

Oh yeah. I remember waking up, my parents bedroom was next to mine and I remember hearing my mother gasp because she had turned on the tv. It was CNN or something. And it was their plane was reported missing.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It also wasn't that long after Princess Diana.

[Lauren Garoni]

Right. And there's a photo that has since resurfaced, especially this week, that Carolyn Bessette was in the same pew as Princess Diana at Gianni Versace's funeral.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, she was the robe behind David Furnish and Elton John. Can you imagine not even being in the A seat at Gianni's funeral?

[Lauren Garoni]

I don't think second row is too bad.

[Chelsea Fairless]

You could do worse at Gianni's funeral.

[Lauren Garoni]

But yeah, I remember obviously Princess Diana's death and the death of JFK Jr. And I imagine in the episodes to come they're going to get into this and it's already been shown through JFK jr's life on the series. But how omnipresent the paparazzi was in a way that doesn't exist anymore. I think that because everyone has cell phones, the relationship that paparazzi have with celebrities is quite different. Like they were abusive, I remember, towards celebrities in the 90s. Tripping celebrities, taunting them to get a bad reaction. Like you don't see celebrities punching paparazzi as much as you did in the 90s, for sure.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But also JFK and Carolyn were just on a different fame level, but it

[Lauren Garoni]

felt hand in hand. Not that the paparazzi killed JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette, although one of the reasons that he enjoyed flying a plane was that he could avoid public airports and being photographed there, of course. But that was certainly a conversation after Princess Diana's death that the paparazzi killed her, right?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, they did kill her, quite literally.

[Lauren Garoni]

We've discussed Naomi Watts, but we're really burying the lead in the star making performances of Sarah Pigeon as Carolyn Bessette and Paul Anthony Kelly as JFK Jr. A man who was cast three weeks before the series was set to go into production. They could not find JFK Jr. So much that they were contemplating shutting down production to be able to just recast.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And wasn't this guy like a male model?

[Lauren Garoni]

He's Canadian, which I think explains a lot.

[Chelsea Fairless]

What does that explain?

[Lauren Garoni]

Just handsome, good natured.

[Chelsea Fairless]

He can play American, we'll allow it.

[Lauren Garoni]

He was a model, but he was trying to be an actor and could not get cast and was often told like, hey, you look like JFK Jr. And the weirder thing is he did a self tape for this series that they discarded. And when they could not find their JFK junior Connor Hines was discussing. He goes, I was just walking up to people being like, would you audition for this show? It was Ryan Murphy who was like, go back to the tapes. Go back to the beginning. See who came in. And that's how they found Paul Anthony Kelly.

[Chelsea Fairless]

He's great. And I like that he's unknown. I like that we don't have to see a known actor transform into this person that we're all so familiar with. Same with Sarah Pigeon as Carolyn Bessette. She's certainly more known than him going into this, but this is of course her breakthrough role. Although she was in a Broadway show called Stereophonic where she basically played Stevie Nicks. And everyone that saw that is like, she's a genius.

[Lauren Garoni]

Well, she was nominated for a Tony. What I was amazed by, well, one, I thought she was British. She just has British face.

[Chelsea Fairless]

To me, yeah, she looks British.

[Lauren Garoni]

And I did not realize a dark, dark brunette.

[Chelsea Fairless]

The blonde suits her.

[Lauren Garoni]

I Think she should keep the blonde. I don't know if you've noticed, but there's a lot of behind the scenes videos. I think, because the initial criticism of those first paparazzi images were of course, the costumes, but also the color of her hair. Like there's a whole behind the scenes video that you can watch about them dyeing her hair and getting the right shade and how the shade changes over the course of her life.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, the hair was completely wrong in those initial paparazzi photos. Again, thank God they course corrected. Because the last thing we need is budget versions of these people. And the fact that we don't have to deal with that on any level is incredible. It's what makes this feel like a luxurious, upscale television experience.

[Lauren Garoni]

Absolutely.

[Chelsea Fairless]

That and the production design, which honestly is my favorite part of this show.

[Lauren Garoni]

The production designer is Alex Djerando and he said that he based the look basically on Calvin Klein's whole aesthetic, like from the office to JFK junior's apartment. He was like, you know what, we're just going to pull in the Calvin early to mid-90s minimalist aesthetic and everything. And I think that was a bold choice, but a great choice.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, I just want to live in his loft and in those Calvin Klein offices. Never go anywhere else. But also, even just like the smaller production design things, like when they're walking down the street and they see the wheat pasted posters of the Calvin Klein campaign, like everything looks so gorgeous. And they also shot at all of the correct New York locations, restaurants that are still there, like Pana and Michael's, what have you. I hear they shot at Indochine, like this is the old New York that still exists in New York today. And it's fun to see those places. And that's again, kind of what I wanted from. And just like that was those really iconic New York institutions.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yes, unfortunately we had to go to a show set in the 90s to get that again. But I don't know what to make of Paul Anthony Kelly, just because I think it's very difficult to play JFK Jr. Especially at this time in his life. But I realized that actually, because I was like, is he doing a good job? Is he boring? And then I was like, oh no, he's actually capturing this naivete, but also hubris that growing up with that much privilege would have. And I think that is exemplified in the sequence where he one is late for his first date with Carolyn but leaves his bike unlocked, which is something that JFK Jr did all the time. Yeah, which that is someone who is a prince, like, who thinks that his bike will never get stolen yet it does, but it's fine because he's got the money to replace it, but like never the self awareness to ever lock up his bike even though it keeps getting stolen.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, I don't think he thinks it's not going to get stolen. It's just he doesn't care if it gets stolen or not. Which is honestly kind of iconic. But also I can't imagine just like walking down the street being that man where like every single woman and gay wants to you and is like, please marry me.

[Lauren Garoni]

But I think in these initial episodes it's Sarah Pigeon that has more to work with than Paul Anthony Kelly as JFK Jr. That's why I think I initially was like, is he boring? And it's like, oh no. This is kind of the character. Like, she is just cool from the jump. She is someone you want to be, someone you want to be friends with. Which according to everyone that knew Carolyn Bassett and that was her vibe.

[Chelsea Fairless]

She's so cool. And I'm just so impressed because I never see a fashion girl captured accurately.

[Lauren Garoni]

There's many movies with fashion girls, but they do not look like legit women that work in fashion look or act.

[Chelsea Fairless]

This is like so incredibly legit and frankly inspiring to watch. Guys, I learned something truly spooky recently, which is that the average person eats a credit card's worth of plastic every single week. This grosses me out to no end. And this is what I'm doing about it. I've made the switch to Blueland across all of the cleaning products in my home. Especially at the start of the year when I'm rethinking routines and trying to build more sustainable habits at home. Certified by Cradle to Cradle. Blueland products meet the highest standard of clean. They're effective, yet gentle on people and the planet. From cleaning sprays and toilet bowl cleaner to dishwasher and laundry detergent tablets, Blueland's 100% microplastic free EPA safer choice certified formulas are safe to use around my family and my plants. I love not having to choose between the safe option and what actually cleans my house. And Blueland is trusted in over 1 million homes, including mine. I recently started using the laundry tablets in the spring bloom scent. They smell like wildflowers and citrus. I prefer adding scent to my laundry, personally, but there's also an unscented tablet for all of you purists out there. And they come in a chic little tin instead of an ugly plastic container that you'll have to throw out time and time again. It's a minor change that I made in my weekly routine, but it makes me feel less guilty about my consumption and I consider that to be a win. Bland has a special offer for our listeners right now. Get 15% off your first order by going to bland.com outfit. You will not want to miss this. Go to blueland.com outfit for 15% off. That's blueland.com outfit to get 15% off. Oh, we have to talk about Daryl Hannah. Dre Hemingway as Daryl Hannah.

[Lauren Garoni]

I don't know what Daryl Hannah did to Connor Hines, the showrunner. I don't know if he had a bad experience watching Splash, but the way that she is portrayed is absolutely batshit. And this is nothing against Dre Hemingway's portrayal of Daryl Hannah, which is great. I think the voice and the mannerisms at times is uncanny. It's nothing about her portrayal. It is 100% about how she is written. Because when Daryl Hannah comes on screen, the show suddenly becomes Fatal Attraction.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Totally. But actually for me, she reminds me of a Woody Allen love interest in that she is highly neurotic, a bit sort of woo woo, wishy washy actress type. That would be like a Carol Kane character in a Woody Allen movie.

[Lauren Garoni]

Absolutely. And I think that in these initial episodes it does a good job of demonstrating, going back to our thoughts about Naomi Watts's Jackie O and Daryl Hannah. It just shows that JFK Jr. Was kind of a pushover. Like he and Daryl Hanna were in an on again, off again relationship for five years. And Connor Hines has explained like it went on for longer and there were more incidents and there's actually more overlap between him dating Daryl Hannah and Carolyn Bessette that is shown on the show. But Connor Hines was like, we just had to condense it. Now. One of the things I thought that was invented for the show, that actually did happen is he did lose control of the leash of Daryl Hannah's dog and it did get hit by a

[Chelsea Fairless]

car in Central park, which also feels very Woody Allen. That and her showing up uninvited at the wake, like it hits all of those beats for me.

[Lauren Garoni]

So what I learned in this Carolyn Bassett biography is, and these are just details where I'm like, why didn't they put it in the show? It. It happened. And it's funnier, which is, right, we see JFK Jr get on a flight to bring the ashes back to la, to Daryl Hannah. But I guess what happened is he just brought them in a plain box that he was given by the crematorium. And she was mad at him for not bringing it in a nicer urn. Also, Daryl Hannah evidently did show up to Jackie O's wake and just kept going up to people and being like, you know, I met Jackson Brown. Which is weird because she dated Jackson Brown in between dating JFK Jr. Well,

[Chelsea Fairless]

she sounds like a weird vibe. And if I was Daryl Hannah, I would be suing them for defamation. Because what could be worse than being Portra is this fucking annoying.

[Lauren Garoni]

Well, I've subsequently learned from the Internet that Daryl Hannah is autistic.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay, well, if that is the case, this is a much different portrayal of female autism than we've ever seen in media before. And I don't think being autistic necessarily makes you this fucking annoying.

[Lauren Garoni]

I will say I doubt this scene ever really happened. But that scene where Jackie won't come to dinner with Daryl JFK Jr. And we have not even mentioned Grace Gummer playing Caroline Kennedy.

[Chelsea Fairless]

She's great.

[Lauren Garoni]

I love the. The Nepo baby casting. Right? You have Dre Hemingway as Daryl Hannah. You've got Grace Gummer as Caroline Kennedy. But there's a scene where Daryl Hannah runs out and JFK Jr. Runs after her. And Daryl Hannah has this whole thing of like, do you ever think why your mom doesn't like me, a blonde actress? Does that sound familiar to you? Sort of hinting at jfk? Not hinting at basically being like, yeah,

[Chelsea Fairless]

I think they did more than hint.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah, your mother doesn't like me because your dad Marilyn Monroe. I don't think that seed ever happened. But she does read him well. And it's the only scene she's not a full tilt psycho.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Totally.

[Lauren Garoni]

Can I get into some of the differences of the series and the book, at least according to this Elizabeth Beller biography?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Sure.

[Lauren Garoni]

So in the show it is portrayed that they meet at this benefit, but according to the Carolyn Bessette biography, he did first come in as a VIP client for a suit fitting and gave his number to Carolyn. He invited her to a benefit. Not the Save the Forest benefit that we see in the show. It is a different benefit where I guess Carolyn Bessette didn't know if she was JFK jr's date or not, because at the table he was seated next to another woman. He then invites her to another benefit, the one that we see in the series. And after that he invites her to his beach house for the weekend where she meets his cousin Anthony Radwell and his girlfriend at the Time, future wife Carol, who would be a future Real housewife of New York. And unfortunately, as we've learned through the Epstein files, friends with Ghislaine Maxwell, also

[Chelsea Fairless]

the woman who wrote what Remains, which I actually did read years ago.

[Lauren Garoni]

Oh, well, then you probably know this part of it, which is, after this weekend, JFK Jr. Invites Carolyn Bessette to a restaurant in Tribeca and hands her a letter. And it's a letter from a prep school friend that's like, oh, you're seeing Carolyn Bessette. She's a user and she dates around, and he breaks up with her there. And in Carol Radzwell's memoir, she basically corroborates that story by saying, like, I had this great weekend with Carolyn, and then I didn't see her for two years. So I find it weird that they did not include that. But it does seem, if you watch the preview for this week's episode, there seems to be a scene where he says, my friends have told me some things about you.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I think it makes sense that they would want to streamline things a bit. Can we get into the Sex and the City of it all?

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah. I mean, I think every single pop culture podcast is talking about their feelings about this show, and we have given our thoughts, which is we love it. But as people have done their 10,000 hours in sex in the City, we are uniquely qualified to discuss the overlaps of this show with one miscarri Bradshaw. I have seen so many memes this past week of, like, carolyn is so Carrie coded. I also saw a tweet that was like, you know what? Come to think of it, I think Candace Bushnell base Kerry on Carolyn Bessette and Mr. Big on JFK Jr. And I sent that tweet to you, and I just wrote, open the schools.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I know. Horrified. Candace and Carolyn both hung out at the same clubs and restaurants. I'm assuming they both smoked. I think that Carolyn's apartment, as portrayed in the show, is like the most Carrie thing about her. Other than that, to me, she's the polar opposite of Carrie. To me, she is Natasha, not Carrie.

[Lauren Garoni]

Right. And you believe the Natasha character is probably based on Carolyn Bassett?

[Chelsea Fairless]

For sure. It's not as if they copied Carolyn's style exactly, but they went out of their way to make her a minimalist. They gave her this very impressive corporate job at Ralph Lauren, which is the closest thing that you could do to Calvin Klein, essentially. And they paired her with Mr. Big, who, like JFK Jr. Was supposed to be this unattainable Bachelor, the most eligible man in New York. So to me, I find it really hard to believe that she was not, at least in part inspired by Carolyn. For sure. But Carrie needed to have a rival, and it makes sense that it would be a woman like that.

[Lauren Garoni]

And you could make the argument that Candace Bushnell felt that Carolyn Bessette was her rival because it has been resurfaced. I mean, you found this article a year ago of this very mean, spirited, I put in quotes, satire article about Carolyn Bessette.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I'm never going to speak ill of mother Candace, but it is something that would not be written today.

[Lauren Garoni]

Certainly we'll link to it in our show notes. It doesn't make a ton of sense.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, if you've ever read My Year of Rest and Relaxation, it reminds me of that because it's told in the first person, but from the perspective of someone who is incredibly, like, funny, cruel and mentally ill. And a lot of this is about her being a pill popper and having an eating disorder. Like, there's literally a line where she says, like, I was watching the Karen Carpenter story for something like the 57th time, which again, in the 90s, making anorexia jokes like that was, I don't know if I would say, acceptable, but certainly more commonplace. And now people just, like, would not touch that shit for obvious reasons.

[Lauren Garoni]

It was written for a magazine called Manhattan File. It was called Spoiled in the City. She married the World's Most Eligible Bachelor and inherited way more than a nasty habit for popping pills Is something rotten in Soho.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And it also talked about how JFK Jr. Cheated on her.

[Lauren Garoni]

So what would prompt someone like Candace to write such a thing? It couldn't have been, you know, being paid perhaps $4 a word from. What is this Manhattan File? It is probably because there was a little bit of jealousy between them because they both slept with the same guy. Michael Bergen. Michael Bergen is featured in the second and third episode of Love Story. He's a real person. He is also in Candace's articles.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, that's speculation that there was jealousy. He was a situation ship for both of them. So I don't think Candace would necessarily give a shit that they fucked the same guy. And this guy was written about in Candace's column, which was then fictionalized on Sex and the City in the Models and Mortals episode.

[Lauren Garoni]

And ironically, if you look at the trivia, that actor, Michael Bergen. That model, Michael Bergen, he ended up becoming an actor. He was on Baywatch for many years. He auditioned for the role of Derek the Model and didn't get it.

[Chelsea Fairless]

That's so rude. But also, I would not be surprised if these women either knew each other or had mutual friends. I would be shocked if they didn't. So they could have just not with each other for whatever reason.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah, you're right.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Like, the social world in Manhattan is small. If you are an in the know fashion girl, you're only going to certain restaurants and clubs and parties. Like, you're right.

[Lauren Garoni]

It is my conjecture that Candace Bushnell was jealous of Carolyn Bessette. However, I'm trying to find a reason why she would write such a catty article.

[Chelsea Fairless]

We don't know. We could ask her though.

[Lauren Garoni]

Another weird Carolyn Bassett Sex in the City connection that I discovered in listening to this biography is in the early 90s, before Michael Bergen, Carolyn Bessette was dating an actor by the name of Scott William Winters, who you might remember as the smart guy from Harvard that Matt Damon fights with in Goodwill hunting the do you like apples? Well, I got her number. How about Dem apples?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay, yeah, I got that. I just like you reenacting the scene. I think you could have done a better delivery of the them apples, though.

[Lauren Garoni]

Oh, you want me to fully commit? I'll fully commit. Hey, do you like apples? Well, I got a number. How about them apples? Thank you.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Much better. I knew you had it in you.

[Lauren Garoni]

Okay. Anyway, she was dating that guy when he was a bartender and an aspiring actor at the time. I bring this all up to say he has a brother named Dean Winters. Dean Winters was on an episode of Sex and the City called the Fuck Buddy. He was Carrie's fuck buddy.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Right. Okay. Yes. So many connections.

[Lauren Garoni]

Sorry. Right now I'm erecting a message board with red strings. It's all connected, Chelsea.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, that's literally what I was imagining in my head as I was watching you talk just now.

[Lauren Garoni]

And also, it seems forgotten slightly that JFK Jr dated Sarah Jessica Parker.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Right. Although there are no photos of this that exist, unfortunately. And from my understanding, it seems like they went on a few dates. It wasn't that serious. He broke up with her over the phone. She doesn't have any ill will towards him. She's always talked positively of him. But imagine what could have been.

[Lauren Garoni]

It's just when it comes to Sex in the City and Carolyn Bessette and jfk, it's just time is a flat circle. It's all connected.

[Chelsea Fairless]

We probably wouldn't have got Sex in the City actually if Sarah Jessica Parker

[Lauren Garoni]

married JFK Jr. Well, because, remember?

[Chelsea Fairless]

How risque the idea of her going on that show was right. So she might have just said no to it just because it has sex in the title and she's married to a Kennedy. I think for that reason there is a possibility that she may have passed.

[Lauren Garoni]

Well, I mean, at one point, going back to the Daryl Hannah portrayal, at one point she's like, I'll give up acting for you. My roles are drying up. But it is clear that JFK Jr. At least in this portrayal and other things that I've read about him, was a bit of a mommy's boy. And one of his passions early on was acting. And his mother was like, no. I mean, it's discussed in the series where he's like, I did this Off Broadway play and my mother forbade the press to ever come to it. So no one saw it.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, not the greatest Parenting

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[Lauren Garoni]

Can we do some fashion fact checking for the first three episodes before we move on?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Sure.

[Lauren Garoni]

Okay. Did Carolyn Bassett really dress Annette Benning for the Bugsy premiere?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I have no idea. But she did wear that?

[Lauren Garoni]

Yes, it's hard to say. There's an article about Carolyn Bessette from the 90s that lists one of her VIP clients as Annette Bening. Did you also have a moment where you were like, did they get real Annette Benning and use de aging technology? Because that casting was pitch perfect.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, I did not have that thought. I was just impressed by the casting.

[Lauren Garoni]

But to show Carolyn's fashion bonafides, in the beginning of the show, there is a styling session with Annette Benning. She's in this black dress, and Carolyn is like, what if you wore this male blazer that we tailored? Which, if you go to the Bugsy premiere, she did wear a beige men's blazer or what looks to be could be oversized blazer. What is not captured in the series is Annette Benning was heavily pregnant at the Bugsy premiere.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Right.

[Lauren Garoni]

Okay. What else did Carolyn Bessette pick Kate Moss's headshot out of that?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I would like to know. I'm going to guess that didn't happen.

[Lauren Garoni]

Not exactly. Again, according to this Carolyn Bessette biography, it was Calvin Klein whose initial impulse was to pick Kate Moss for a new campaign. He was recently out of rehab. The company was. They say this in the episode, you know, was not doing well. It was in the red. He knew he had to reinvent somehow and he was going to use Kate Moss. Then he got cold feet and was like, no, let's get a more traditional model. And that's when Carolyn Bessette came in and was like, no, no, she's it. She's cool. Let's go with her. And also, at one point, Carolyn Bessette moved apartments to a place on Waverly where Johnny Depp was living in the back garden apartment with Kate Moss. So they. They probably became friendly during that time period as well.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, as a waif who also didn't like to brush her hair, it makes sense that she would be into Kate Moss. Like, that's not surprising at all.

[Lauren Garoni]

I like to imagine they probably smoke cigarettes together in Johnny Depp's backyard garden.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I'm sure they did.

[Lauren Garoni]

Okay. The briefly mentioned Mark Wahlberg, Calvin Klein

[Chelsea Fairless]

controversy, I wasn't even familiar with that. In the scheme of Mark Wahlberg's scandals, I don't remember this at all.

[Lauren Garoni]

This is not in reference to the hate crime that he did jail time for. This is referring to an incident that happened in 1993 at the house of talent manager Gary Harrington. It was to celebrate the 29th birthday of Alec Kershian. Kershian is the director of Madonna's Truth or Dare. And somehow. This is from an old People magazine. A brawl took place between Madonna's People and Wahlberg that, I quote, resembled the hip hop version of the OK Corral. Per witnesses at the time, Madonna spokesperson told People that Wahlberg called one of the singer's group members a homo. Then others claim Madonna started it because she heard Wahlberg had been dissing her in the press. Then they started hurling sexually explicit insults at each other. No idea what that could be. And then things got physical when Wahlberg punched out Guy Osiri. Guy Osiri ran Madonna's record company, Maverick

[Chelsea Fairless]

Records, and is an icon in his own right.

[Lauren Garoni]

And not a homo. Just going to put that out there. But it's funny. Mark Wahlberg has talked about this incident because he almost lost a role in a movie that Penny Marshall was doing because of this. And where he does admit, like, yeah, I got in a fight in L. A with three guys and I broke someone's nose and it was Madonna's People. So she called the cops on me and made up this bullshit story and said a bunch of shit that I didn't do.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It's like, no, you have a history of violence and brushes with the law.

[Lauren Garoni]

He claims that Penny Marshall called him and was like, I'm not going to do a Penny Marshall impression.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Although I'm tempted, honestly, why not?

[Lauren Garoni]

What the fuck did you do, Mark? Is that a good Penny Marshall?

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, I. I don't think so.

[Lauren Garoni]

The only reason I'm getting into this is that in an interview that Mark Wahlberg did gave, he claims that Penny Marshall was like, what the fuck did you do? He told her that story, and she was like, you know what? Fuck it. I'm gonna give you the role anyway.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, she didn't think it was that bad, clearly.

[Lauren Garoni]

He also talked about this in 2011 in a vanity Fair article where he claims that Madonna still owes him an apology.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I think he's gonna be waiting a long time for that.

[Lauren Garoni]

I also want to discuss. There's a moment in this scene they are choosing to deal with Calvin Klein's sexuality in such an interesting way.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, they're taking the open, secret route, which, to my understanding, is kind of how it was.

[Lauren Garoni]

Right. Calvin Klein was married to a woman, Kelly Klein, for a very long time. He is now with a man as many male partners over the last 10 or 15 years.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But there's this moment where he identifies as bisexual.

[Lauren Garoni]

Now, there you go. But clear it was probably a strategic choice at the time and fashion for him to marry a woman in the 80s and 90s. Whatever. This is all to say Alessandro Novello, who is playing Calvin Klein, which my favorite sub genre is Alessandro Novello playing fashion designers because he's the best thing about Neon Demon. He is playing a version of Tom Ford in that movie.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, right. I completely forgot about that. I blocked that movie out.

[Lauren Garoni]

I've never seen you more upset after a film than when we saw Neon Demon together.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Never need to see that again.

[Lauren Garoni]

Absolutely not. But there's this moment as Calvin Klein where he's like, well, we have to release a statement. And then his wife, Kelly Klein, played by Lila George, who we love from that awful Cate Blanchett series, the Hottest woman Alive, goes, you want the statement to come from you? And he goes, no, I love it.

[Chelsea Fairless]

And Kelly Klein apparently loves this show. She's been posting about it a lot.

[Lauren Garoni]

Well, I mean, her book Pools is featured prominently in a scene.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I know. And I remember that book from the 90s. Like, I remember seeing seen it at bookstores and stuff. So I was like, I wonder how much it is now. It's like 200 bucks. I'm not doing that, but I bet it's fab.

[Lauren Garoni]

I think it's a worthwhile business purchase for the office.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Anyway, we should move on. We have other things to talk about. I continue to be thrilled that this podcast is sponsored by the RealReal, which is the best place to shop authenticated luxury handbags, clothing, watches, and so much more. More. I think that when a lot of people think about the RealReal, they're like, this is where I'll go to find a Louis Vuitton handbag or a party dress or something. And it's great for those things, but it's also great for classic, simple separates.

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[Chelsea Fairless]

I'm not even going to deny that. Obviously I am. And on the RealReal, you could input your size and then search for something basic, like long black skirt, which is what I've been doing. This week. I found three that I liked, all returnable. I ordered them and we'll see what actually fits me. Because usually when you shop for vintage online, you can't return anything. And no brick and mortar vintage store has like three long black skirts in my size. So truly, there's nowhere else that I can Shop like this. Anyway, what have you been buying?

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[Chelsea Fairless]

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[Chelsea Fairless]

That's great. Yes, definitely buy. I approve.

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[Lauren Garoni]

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[Chelsea Fairless]

The RealReal is the most trusted name and authenticated luxury resale. With over 10,000 new arrivals daily. No one does resale like the RealReal. And now get $25 off your first purchase when you go to therealreal.com/outfits. That's therealreal.comout to get your 25 off. Start shopping now at therealreal.comout to Wuthering Heights. Sure. Well, what did you think? Because we haven't talked about this at all.

[Lauren Garoni]

I think that I was uniquely suited to enjoy this film as someone that grew up reading fan fiction and has no relationship to the source material. I also like Emerald Fanel. As a middle aged to elder millennial, grew up on movies like Romeo and Michelle and Clueless and Josie and the Pussycats, which were movies that had heightened costume and production design that did not make sense for the world that the movie was taking place in. So for all of those reasons, I fucked with the movie.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, I'm totally with you. Like this is a blockbuster for women. I'm glad that movies like this are being made and I'm choosing to appreciate this for what it is and not hold it to the same standards as an art house film. Like, I'd rather watch this than like Deadpool or like Spider man, all the other shit that they make. And yeah, I'm sure that like we would prefer the like Sofia Coppola or the Catherine Brie version of Wuthering Heights. But like, I'll Take this.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah. I mean, those are the movies buy ins. Because the more I have now come to understand this week of what the plot of Wuthering Heights is, it is very clear that Emerald Fennell just wrote what seems to be her memory as a teenager reading that book as a screenplay. Because there are so many departures from the book.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Right. But I feel like this adaptation seems to be more aligned with like Disney retellings of classic fairy tales. Right. They're not true to the source material because the source material is extreme dark. And, like, we don't want to see like the Ugly Stepsisters, like, cut off their toes to fit in the glass slipper. We want to see like, mice that are fashion designers.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah. But the thing is that Emerald Fennell would want someone to cut their foot off to fit into a shoe.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Maybe that's true. I don't know. For me, while I enjoyed this film, I actually feel like I'm the one person that doesn't have a strong opinion about it. And I think that that is because I'm completely unfamiliar with the source material also. So I don't have any expectations going in. And because I had no awareness of the plot, I was interested in where the story was going.

[Lauren Garoni]

I do agree with you. What I'm more fascinated by is the fact that it seems as a culture, everyone has decided that they just hate Emerald Fennell as a filmmaker and as a natural born hater. The fact that I have neutral feelings about this person kind of fascinates me. Like something that everyone hates that I'm like, I actually don't have an opinion on this.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, for me, I didn't love Promising Young Woman.

[Lauren Garoni]

Oh, no. I disliked Promising Young Woman, but I

[Chelsea Fairless]

liked Saltburn a lot. And I think with Emerald Fennell, it's like, these aren't necessarily movies for cinephiles. Like, they are very, very mainstream, accessible films. Despite having these dark themes. Right.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah. The best that I can glean from what people don't like about her is that they feel that she mistakes provocative elements in her film for profundary. And I just have never taken her film seriously. I don't think they're meant to be taken seriously.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I think they're definitely meant to be taken seriously, but we don't take them that seriously because we more just view them as entertainment than something that has, like a ton of depth to it. Even though her films touch upon very deep issues, especially in the case of Promising Young Woman, I guess people feel

[Lauren Garoni]

that it's dealt with at a very

[Chelsea Fairless]

surface Level, which is a fair criticism.

[Lauren Garoni]

And then with something like Saltburn, it's a muddled meditation about class. But to me, she wanted to make a millennial version of talented. Mr. Ripley said in the mid aughts. I don't have an issue with that.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, I think her intent is, like, really good because we don't get these sort of like, big budget romance, blockbuster movies anymore.

[Lauren Garoni]

And that is another criticism that I've noticed is like, well, she's this, again, surface level provocateur. And she doesn't really go there. And it's like, guys, this is about as transgressive as you can get in a studio level film. Like, what do you want Todd Solon's to do his interpretation of Wuthering Heights?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I mean, that I would love to see.

[Lauren Garoni]

Also, these people don't fuck. That's the other thing I don't understand about this film. But we'll get into it in a second.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, let's get into it now, because I feel completely deceived by the trailer. I was promised fucking and kinky sex. I got none of that shit.

[Lauren Garoni]

Okay, well, there's two ways to discuss this. One is the fact that in the

[Chelsea Fairless]

book, they don't fuck.

[Lauren Garoni]

They do not have sex. And as I've gone down the rabbit hole of the literary community discussing this book, I guess there is a way of reading the book that they are actually half siblings. That Heathcliff is not just a boy the father picked up out of the goodness of his heart. It's because it's his bastard son.

[Chelsea Fairless]

That would make a little more sense, don't you think?

[Lauren Garoni]

It would make a little more sense. And it would also be way kinkier that these half siblings are fucking, which is my other issue with this film. And I felt like this is my initial feeling when I watch it. I was like, I don't know if this shows my limitation when it comes to reading classic literature, but I'm like, this just more feels like Romeo and Juliet meets Dangerous Liaisons. But now that I understand the plot of the book more, I'm like, no, I think she was just jamming this doomed love story into a movie where the source material doesn't have that shit at all. It is about generational trauma.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Of course. I completely understand the criticisms that I'm seeing online by people that are fans of the book, by people that understand the book, and by people who feel that this film is a complete misread of what the book is actually about. I get it. But for me, I'm like, oh, I have no idea what this book is about. So great. Although hearing you say that she wrote this film for her. What did you say? Her 14 year old self.

[Lauren Garoni]

That's what I think she has been on record in saying. Oh, I cast Jacob Elordi as Heathcliff because that's how Heathcliff looked on my teenage paperback of Wuthering Heights. But like, it just feels like someone's memory from 20 years ago of a book. Like if I was forced to write an adaptation of the Great Gatsby right now from memory.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Totally. But also that would explain the sex scenes because that's what like a 14 year old thinks that like sex scenes are.

[Lauren Garoni]

This is the thing I will knock her for. So there's a montage of them having an affair and they are both clothed multiple times and she's on top multiple times.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, same position. I mean, there's like one scene where we see him eating her out. I was like, why would you have a montage of all the same positions?

[Lauren Garoni]

That was my thought as well. It's like, let's get some different shit

[Chelsea Fairless]

going on because we just recorded that VIP episode. It's like we've just watched like 40 great freaky sex scenes. So I think we came into this having seen some of the greats, so I was expecting something fucking weird.

[Lauren Garoni]

And also, if you're gonna change the source material, which I guess here at the Every Outfit podcast, we're giving our stamp of like, we're fine for you to change the source material, especially if we've never read the sour material. But if you're going to do something where it's like Kathy and Heathcliff are having sex and having this affair behind everyone's backs, really go there, do something with it.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, also, like, can you imagine the pent up desire that they would feel towards each other after having this attraction for so long? Like when they first fucked, I didn't even feel that release. Really.

[Lauren Garoni]

Well, can we also discuss the fact, which is something we got into in the VIP episode we did about great movie sex scenes is a lot of the great movie sex scenes that we talked about are, yes, two very attractive people, but they also have incredible chemistry with each other. And a symptom of why films feel so sexless or lack eroticism is they're just putting two popular hot actors together who don't have any chemistry. And Jacob Elordi and Margot Robbie don't really have chemistry. I believe them as siblings. They have sibling energy.

[Chelsea Fairless]

See, I've read some reviews where people have Talked about the lack of chemistry, and I didn't totally feel that. I just feel like they didn't have anything that sexy to do.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah. Like, the kinkiest, sexiest scene, which I'm gonna guess wasn't in the book, is when two people who work at Wuthering

[Chelsea Fairless]

Heights are having some freaky barnyard sex.

[Lauren Garoni]

Right. And Heathcliff lays his entire body on Kathy and covers her mouth. Like, that was hotter than any of the times they actually had sex.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, for sure.

[Lauren Garoni]

Do you want me to tell you the differences between the book and the movie?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I think most people probably know, but give the CliffsNotes version to those that have not been on the Internet this week.

[Will from IQ Bar]

Week.

[Lauren Garoni]

To the Heathcliffs. Give the Heathcliff's notes. The biggest thing is that I do feel like it's worth mentioning because oftentimes when you're adapting a book, especially into a movie, you have to streamline some things. You can't have every character. But she just gets rid of the brother character. Kathy has an actual brother. Remember, she says, I'm gonna name you after my dead brother.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah.

[Lauren Garoni]

And she has an actual ass brother named Hindley. And he's actually the abusive one towards Heathcliff.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Right.

[Lauren Garoni]

Emerald Fennel just decided to make the father that character. Get rid of the brother. Now, a lot of people have gone on Emerald Fennell's case that it's like you didn't even do the second part of the book because there's a whole second generation of Lintons and Earnshaws that Heathcliff terrorizes. And also, Kathy is a ghost and haunts them, which, by the way, sounds much cooler.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Kathy as a ghost does sound cool.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah. The movie just becomes the others. But, Ian, Emerald Fennell's defense, which. I don't even like her that much as a film director, but almost none of the adaptations, movie adaptations especially, do that part of the book. So there's that. But Kathy does end up having a child, which is the big departure of this film.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay, didn't need that.

[Lauren Garoni]

Did you cry at the end of the film? Yes. Interesting.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I did cry at the end. Tat was, like, openly weeping in the lobby afterwards. I was like, damn. People were really sad. There was lots of girls crying in the bathroom after. I think it really got my audience, like, in a Titanic capacity.

[Lauren Garoni]

That's fascinating. I saw it with my mom. We went to the 10am screening at the Grove so that she could be home in time for mahjong. And I needed to see it in the morning because that's when I had A babysitter. My mom was crying and I was looking at her and I'm like, why? These are toxic people who were terrible to each other and ruined everyone's lives around them.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay. But I'm Team Heathcliff. See, Kathy I kind of didn't fuck with. And I was like, why is this bitch so annoying? And then I was like, oh, she's like a 30 something year old woman that's playing a teenage girl character. So obviously I can see how like an annoying teenage girl might be like that, but it's just genuinely weird coming from like an adult woman.

[Will from IQ Bar]

Yeah.

[Lauren Garoni]

That's another criticism I've seen is like, why are these people so old? They're like, why does Eber Fennell get to make this film? And why is Margot Robbie playing an 18 year old? And I'll explain why. Margot Robbie's production company has produced each of Emerald Fennell's movies. If you remember, Emerald Fennell was Midge, the pregnant Barbie in Barbie. Margot Robbie made a movie that made a billion dollars. She wanted to work with Emerald Fennell. Emerald Fennell wanted to make Withering Heights. For reasons I don't understand, as someone

[Chelsea Fairless]

that has never read the book or watched any of the other films, I

[Lauren Garoni]

watched the Andrea Arnold one. It is on Tubi. Tubi's on it, man. We don't even do ads for them. But they are on it because you can find a lot of the adaptations of Wuthering Heights on Tubi right now. Someone in their licensing department was like, you know what, let's get. Let's get the 1939 one. Let's get the Andrea Arnold one. No, what I don't understand is this. If you wanted to do a film that's such a departure from the source material, you've won an Oscar. You paired with an actress who made a studio $1 billion. You're at that studio making this film. Why does it have to be an adaptation of this book? Why couldn't it just be an original story inspired by, you know, I want to do a gothic romance book because

[Chelsea Fairless]

it's this beloved story and people would want to go see it because it's another Wuthering Heights movie. Like, there wouldn't be so many of them if people weren't interested. So many films.

[Lauren Garoni]

I mean, this is true. And if you want a straight up adaptation, there are plenty of them. There is even one with a POC Heathcliff. That's the Andrea Arnold one. This is not me co signing on her casting Jacob Elordi in whitewashing Heathcliff, but she is interested in artificiality. Like, when I was leaving the theater, there weren't so many crying women. There was a group of women who clearly love the book because in the bathroom, they were talking massive. They hated this movie. They were like, what? What's with the pink dress? Which I think they're referring to the iridescent dress that she has on. And it's like, you gotta buy into that.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Okay, well, I also have my criticisms of that particular choice, but for me, I didn't mind that the costumes weren't historically accurate. Although sometimes I feel like it veered in a weird direction, like with the iridescent dress, which I just felt looked kind of cheap.

[Lauren Garoni]

Right.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Like that. My problem is cheapness, not the sort of futuristic aspect. I felt the same way about the face gems. Kathy doesn't need face gems. And if she's going to have face gems, they should look like Pat McGrath put them there and not some random YouTuber.

[Lauren Garoni]

The face gems were distracting. And again, I'm gonna sound like an Emerald Fennell defender, but I will defend her vision in the sense that we talk a lot about this in the realm of people that are on the worst dress list or people who are considered fashion victims. It's not like Emerald Fennell up on the way to making a straight adaptation of Wuthering Heights. Like, she very intentionally made this movie to look the way that it did. Like, there's that shot where Jacob Elordi as Heathcliff leaves on a horse that looks straight out of Gone with the Wind. Like, I mean, just a bright red, unnatural sky.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, and that I liked. I liked how artificial Kathy's world felt, especially when she went to her new house, because that was a fully constructed set. The exterior garden was also on a soundstage. And I feel like that level of artifice made it look really major and reminded us of all of those epic Technicolor movies from the 40s and 50s. And I feel like that was the coolest thing about Wuthering Heights.

[Lauren Garoni]

And those sets looked like sets. Sometimes sets can, even, as fantastical as they can be, looked, look like they maybe are in a real world or a heightened real world. But you could tell those were sets. And I have to imagine that was on purpose.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, for sure. And again, more of this, please. They also did that with Barbie. They built those sets. They did it old school. I want blockbusters like this. But in regards to the whitewashing, I thought that Kathleen Newman Bremming raised a very good point in her article for Refinery20.9 about this, which was that while she doesn't support the practice of whitewashing, she also doesn't think that an Emerald Fennel adaptation with a POC Heathcliff would be a better movie necessarily. And I'm oversimplifying her argument and I will link to her article in the show notes, but she argues that Emerald Fennell is not the correct director to tackle the racial dynamics of this story. And that a story where a POC man is, like, obsessing over a white woman who goes on to abuse and degrade another white woman, like that would be a difficult story for even the most clued in skilled director to tackle. And it shouldn't necessarily be this woman that's doing that, which I agree with.

[Lauren Garoni]

And Emerald Fennell practiced blind casting in other roles because you have Hong Chao as Nellie and Shahzad Latif as Edgar, which I guess you're not supposed to be attracted to Edgar because he's, like, stuffy or something. But it's like, well, this is an attractive man. Like, fall in love with Edgar. Catherine, it's fine. Yeah.

[Chelsea Fairless]

He was just pretty boring, though, I have to say.

[Lauren Garoni]

Can we talk about my favorite character and my favorite portrayal, which is Alison Oliver as Isabella.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah.

[Lauren Garoni]

Who is Edgar's ward. I guess in the book he's actually her daughter.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. Because I was like, who is this bitch and why is she there?

[Lauren Garoni]

In this world, we're just taking in children. But there is that scene. I mean, how you're introduced to her is she is explaining in excruciatingly boring fashion the plot of Romeo and Juliet to Edgar.

[Chelsea Fairless]

See, I just assumed she was like his child bride at first or something.

[Lauren Garoni]

Evidently not. Also, I feel like people don't appreciate Emerald Fennell's humor in her movies, her darkly comic humor. Because there's that scene where Isabella gives Catherine a gift. She says it's flowers, but they just look like vaginas.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Right.

[Lauren Garoni]

And the mushroom, the 3D mushroom that looks like a dick.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I liked all that stuff. But again, where was the actual sex?

[Lauren Garoni]

You want to be subversive? Where was Isabella and Catherine having sex with each other?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I like all the sexual motifs in this film, but they just remind me that there's not a lot of actual sex happening.

[Lauren Garoni]

We were promised a horny, horny movie and it was tepid.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. Although I would say the real winner is the art director who designed the gothic lace title treatment for Wuthering Heights, which tragically wasn't in the actual film. I was like, what the fuck?

[Lauren Garoni]

No. Instead, it's hair.

[Chelsea Fairless]

The hair was not an improvement.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah. Shout out to the art director as well, because this movie was very gooey and ooey. Lots of hands going into gelatinous egg yolks and dead fish that are somehow in some clear gelatinous mold.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Again, there was kind of visual surfacy, stuff like that that was giving weirdness, but there weren't actually a ton of weird, like, broader choices that were made.

[Lauren Garoni]

She edged us.

[Chelsea Fairless]

She did, but I guess she ultimately got her ass, you know?

[Lauren Garoni]

But the whole thing of edging is that to use the film's tagline, you come undone at the end.

[Chelsea Fairless]

All right, shall we move on to another far sexier film?

[Lauren Garoni]

A film that actually did get us off.

[Chelsea Fairless]

A film that actually does fudge, which is pillion. Last week, we went to a Q and A with the cast and the director. It was directed by this guy named Harry Lytton. It stars Alexander Skarsgrd, Harry Melling, who you may know, if you're a Harry

[Lauren Garoni]

Potter freak, we are not.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It was moderated by Francois Arnaud from Heated Rivalry, who is the out hockey player, the very hunky man. And normally, like a Q and A hosted by an actor. Like, it gives me anxiety just thinking about it. But he was so smart. He was prepared. He asked interesting questions. I was so relieved.

[Lauren Garoni]

And thankfully, the questions in the audience were very curated and not weird at all. Yeah, you and I were clutching each other and we were like, should we go?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I know when they start, like, passing a microphone around, I always start to get scared. Like, I don't know how. People like them who are promoting a film are constantly faced with Q&As. I don't know how they handle the anxiety of it if we can't even sit there comfortably for 10 minutes.

[Lauren Garoni]

Maybe it's because we've only lived in Los Angeles and New York, and we know that invariably, if the longer the Q and A goes on gone, the more likely it is that someone's going to be like, will you read my script?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Which we actually saw someone ask that at that Nicholas Cage Q A that we went to. Genius movie. Anyway, I'm so glad we got to go to that shout out to our friend Ryan from Prada, Ryan Weaving, who hooked us up.

[Lauren Garoni]

Wow. I feel like Carrie Bradshaw.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I know. I don't know if he likes being referred to as Ryan from Prada, but he does work at Prada in a Carolyn Bessette type role at that.

[Lauren Garoni]

If he doesn't, we'll be apologizing for it next week. So, yes, the movie pillion it. I was calling it a rom Dom, I guess Harry Lytton, the writer director, has called it a dom calm. It works as both. It's romantic, it's comedic. At times, it is heavy on the BDSM and Dom sub lifestyle. It is based on a 2020 novel called Box Hill, which we learned during the Q and A was handed to the writer director by a BBC executive. It is about the British gay biker scene of the 1970s. So the idea that a BBC executive was like, I think you'd like this and want to adapt it. Another thing we got from the Q and A is that originally he had adapted it to be set in the Roman gladiator times.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Oh, yeah.

[Lauren Garoni]

And then finally a friend was like, why don't you just set it for today? And he was like, okay. And I think it's much stronger for it.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. I had really high expectations after watching the trailer, and I wasn't disappointed. I really loved this film. To me, it felt deeply human. It was also executed with a great deal of consideration and taste. And it's also different from a lot of other BDSM movies, which often kind of are more overtly about abuse, you know, like the Night Porter or Elle or what have you.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah, I. I think the success of this film, obviously is the casting of Alexander Skarsgrd as the dom and Harry Melling as the sub. But it really has the same structure of a film of someone who hasn't found their passion. Like in another movie, it would be like they start volunteering or they learn they're a good cook. In this movie, he finds out he's just a really good sub and that brings him a lot of joy and contentment in his life.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, it's more like a coming of age movie, but for someone that's a little bit older and hasn't figured their shit out necessarily.

[Lauren Garoni]

I think it also avoids a lot of tropes that I think other independent films recently have indulged in, which I was. Was happy at how singular the movie was in the sense that you are just following the Harry Mellon character the entire time. I feel like other movies, the impulse would be like, you know, we follow Alexander Skarsgrd for a little bit and learn about his life, or we get more into a subplot with Harry Melling's parents or something. But it really is through his point of view, his experience.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Totally. And I would last like not even 24 hours in a sub dom relationship, or at least this one that is Depicted because it's not like they just have this sort of, like, sub dom dynamic in a sexual context. It's like this man has to clean Alexander Skarsgard's depressing apartment for most of the movie.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yes. I think what makes it different from other BDSM or subdom movies is it's about a 247 lifestyle.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It's not like some nine and a half weeks shit where he's, like, taking her shopping and taking her to nice dinners. It's like this man is literally trapped doing domestic labor in this man's apartment, and he doesn't even get to sleep in the bed. At least Kim Basinger got to sleep in that bed.

[Lauren Garoni]

Not even that. I get it. The first night he sleeps on the floor and he has no pillow or blanket because he didn't think that that's how this hookup was going to end. But I don't know how long this relationship goes on for. Weeks, months. However long it is, he never gets a pillow or a blanket. That's when I would rebel.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I know. And he ultimately does. Because, guys, if you think that Mr. Big is emotionally withholding, like, wait until you see this Alexander Skarsgard character.

[Lauren Garoni]

Can I admit something?

[Chelsea Fairless]

What?

[Lauren Garoni]

I don't think I would be very good at a dominant submissive relationship, let alone a 247 dominant submissive relationship. But I have been in love with Alexander Skarsgard since the second season of True Blood. Like, this man could make me bark. I would do awful things if he wanted me to.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, especially in this movie because he looks so hot. Because on top of just, like, being a naturally, like, extremely attractive guy with a ton of riz, he also has these fabulous biker outfits.

[Lauren Garoni]

I think the choice to have him be an outlier amongst his biker gang by wearing all white was a very effective choice.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, because he's wearing more, like, motocross stuff. It's not like he's just wearing, like, the classic denim biker jacket or whatever. Although his character is interesting because the Harry Melling character is more overtly nerdy. He's socially awkward. He lives with his parents.

[Lauren Garoni]

Well, yeah, you get that from moment one. It's not a very long film. And it has a great economy of story because when you meet the Harry Mellon character, he is performing with his father in a barber shop quartet at Trivia Night at a pub on Christmas Eve. Like, that's what he has going on in his life. And so from, like, minute one, you're like, oh, he's pathetic. I get it. And then he goes home to his parents, you're like, oh, so he's double pathetic.

[Chelsea Fairless]

But Alexander Skarsgrd is just as weird, if not weirder in terms of his personality. He's just hot. So he can hide behind that. Like, he is also awkward and can't really clearly can't connect with society on some level.

[Lauren Garoni]

For sure. The glasses cover up a lot.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. Also, there is so much like capital A acting in this film. Especially that scene when Alexander Skarsgrd is meeting the parents was really amazing. And you sort of see the tension of like, you know, they're freaky, freaky little relationship sort of butting up against the reality of the real world.

[Lauren Garoni]

But this is what I enjoyed about the film because I feel like another film, even an independent film, wouldn't have the restraint to have the parents be okay with their dynamic. Do you know what I mean? Like, the parents aren't like, what? Dominant, submissive? What's going on here? It's. It's more from an emotional truth that the mother is like, I don't think you're good for my son. I think that's what makes the film actually more universal is we've all been with a person that you want more from who's been withholding that you feel like mistreats you and maybe you're doing all the domestic labor. This is just literally that. And I think we can all relate to just a parent who wants the best for their child. It doesn't fall into that. Like you have this freaky lifestyle and you need to stop.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Totally. And it's not as simple as the fact that Alexander Skarsgrd doesn't care and is being a dick to him. It's like he is on some level incapable of being normal in that way. I don't get the sense that he totally doesn't give a shit. I think he just cannot be a normal, civilized member of society for whatever reason.

[Lauren Garoni]

And that's what makes him even more attractive. Again, the I could fix him was really activated while watching the film.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, that and his like pierced prosthetic dick, which was iconic.

[Lauren Garoni]

I mean, not to keep hyping our VIP episode we did about movie sex scenes, but we did have a category about best male full frontal nudity and we had to discuss his dick in pillion.

[Chelsea Fairless]

The way the dick is introduced is a completely unique way of showing because

[Lauren Garoni]

they show the head of his Prince Albert.

[Chelsea Fairless]

They don't even show the head at first. They just show the side of the shaft in his hand as he's like pulling it out of his pants.

[Lauren Garoni]

Well, I have been on record that this is the only way that you can show male nudity, because if it's an erect penis, it's rated X, so it has to be flaccid. And the only way, I think, effectively to show male nudity is just pieces of a penis. And from the side, give me a little shaft. Maybe give me a hint of pubes. Show me the head with a Prince Albert in it.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, so, so good. Also, we should note that Alexander Skarsgard is part of this, like, BDSM biker gang, essentially. And all of the guys in the biker gang are actually people from the London king scene. So they, like, look completely correct. Like, they have the right clothes, they have the right piercings. Like, it's just this. It's so legit.

[Lauren Garoni]

That was my favorite thing as we were leaving the Q and A. And in the Q and A, the director revealed that Alexander Skarsgrd and Harry Melling were surrounded by actual gay bikers. And you were like, oh, that's why it looks so legit. It's like, yeah, there's no way that you could make an actor be that authentic.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, it's true. And that's also what they did in Cruising and why that film looks real too.

[Lauren Garoni]

Although Jake Shears from the Scissor Sisters makes his acting debut in this film.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I thought he was good.

[Lauren Garoni]

I also. What I love about this movie is I think Harry Leighton deals with, in juxtaposition to Wuthering Heights, what is just on the surface, a very transgressive idea about a 247 dom sub gay relationship, and just deals with it so matter of factly and earnestly. Like, when they all go on a camping trip, you're like, yeah, wholesome. You're like, this is lovely. And they're carrying these tables and you're like, oh, they're all gonna have lunch together. And then you realize that all of the subs are laying on the tables waiting to get by their doms when they feel like it.

[Chelsea Fairless]

So good. I loved that and I loved the way that that was shot also. But, yeah, Jake Shears, if you guys miss the Scissors Sisters, they were a indie sleaze era pop rock band that was very ubiquitous in New York for a period of time. But because all roads lead back to Sex in the City, I would be remiss if I didn't mention the fact that this is the band that sang the song called let's have a Kiki. And that is the song that Sarah Jessica Parker Performed on her episode of Glee.

[Lauren Garoni]

I was unaware of this, and you sent me that clip, and I.

[Chelsea Fairless]

You've never seen that before?

[Lauren Garoni]

No, I avoided Glee my entire life.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Obviously, I avoided Glee, too. I'm not a monster. But, like, I just can't believe you've never seen Sarah Jessica Parker singing let's have a Kiki. Let's just drop in some of the audio.

[Jake Shears]

Let's have a Kiki I want to have a Kiki Lock the door tight let's have a Kiki Mother, I'm gonna let you have it let's have a Kiki I want to have a Kiki

[Lauren Garoni]

Kiki

[Jake Shears]

we're gonna serve and work and

[Chelsea Fairless]

turn Honey, I love how psycho the energy is.

[Lauren Garoni]

What's going on? It's Thanksgiving and everyone is an orphan, and so they end up at an apartment. How does Sarah Jessica Parker factor into this? Is she a teacher as well? A substitute teacher?

[Chelsea Fairless]

I have no clue. I've never watched the episode. I've just seen this one clip of her singing let's have a Kiki. And then Lea Michele, like, starts singing about turkeys and shit. I don't get it. I don't know what's happening.

[Lauren Garoni]

It's Thanksgiving. I at least got that much from the clip. I'm just like, I don't understand. Are they at a teacher's house for Thanksgiving? This seems inappropriate.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It's just funny because it's such a product of its time. Like, this would never happen today because. Because I think it would be accepted that Sarah Jessica Parker singing let's have a Kiki is, like, deeply cringe.

[Lauren Garoni]

Oh, sorry. I'm still focused on the. Are these underage high school students having Thanksgiving at their teacher's house?

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, I wasn't talking about that.

[Lauren Garoni]

You're correct.

[Chelsea Fairless]

I don't know. It has, like, the energy. Like, it makes me feel like I'm on a TJ Maxx Pride float.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah, second term Obama was crazy.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah.

[Lauren Garoni]

Anyway, watch Pillion.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Watch Pillion is better than Wuthering Heights.

[Lauren Garoni]

It just is. Or I guess do a double feature.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah.

[Lauren Garoni]

Honestly, do a double feature and convince your parents to go with you to both.

[Chelsea Fairless]

What? Order, though.

[Lauren Garoni]

Oh, Wuthering Heights and then Pillion.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah, that's what I thought, too. Wuthering Heights is like the foreplay, and then you'll actually get the sex you're looking for in Pillion. Also, the one thing these two movies have in common is that they both feature incredible makeovers. Jacob Elordi's makeover, of course. In Wuthering Heights. And. And Harry Melling's makeover in Pillion is, like, one of the great movie makeovers of all time. Like, it is up there with, like, Judy Greer in Jawbreaker kind of makeover.

[Lauren Garoni]

Now, to be fair, we don't see the process of his makeover. We just see the after results. And it's a quick cut of him with his shaggy hair to suddenly he's got a shaved head. He's got the locked necklace that shows that he's Alexander Skarsgrd. He's got his own motocross suit.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Sometimes shaving your head is just, like, the best thing to do. It's the chain and the lock and the shaved head and the biker clothes, the motocross clothes, which, like, fit him exquisitely well.

[Lauren Garoni]

That's a good costume designer. I've seen some people make the point that it's like Harry Melling is too unattractive for that role. And it is kind of a plot point. At one point, his co worker is. He's showing Alexander Skarsgard to his coworker and she's like, you're with him. Like, what does he see in you? But it's like the casting of Harry Melling is the whole point.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, it's perfect. We don't need this to be red, white and royal blue.

[Lauren Garoni]

Yeah. You can't have Timothee Chalamet as this character. You need someone who is awkward and unconventional looking. And therefore, to your point about the makeover, it's even more extreme when he shaves his head.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Yeah. Don't take a job away from a character actor and then give that character actor a makeover midway through the film. That's how you do it.

[Lauren Garoni]

Sorry. All I'm thinking about is the tweet that I can't unsee, where they put Richard Kyne's face next to Colin Farrell as the Penguin. And it's like, we used to give character actors these roles, but now we just make attractive actors look like character actors.

[Chelsea Fairless]

It's horrifying. You haven't seen the Housemaid yet, but, like, the Amanda Seyfried character is not supposed to be hot. Like, they took that role away from a character actor.

[Lauren Garoni]

Excuse me.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Now, like, in the book, it's not a hot character.

[Lauren Garoni]

I thought it was a single white female thing. Because Sydney Sweeney and Amanda Seyfried look very similar.

[Chelsea Fairless]

No, it's not like that or it's not supposed to be like that? I don't know.

[Lauren Garoni]

I haven't read the book.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Tat has read the book and she had some thoughts about the film, which I quite enjoyed. Again, as someone coming into it with zero understanding of the book.

[Lauren Garoni]

Well, there you go. We've said it all. Or have we?

[Chelsea Fairless]

Well, normally we would have something to apologize for, but I don't really think we fucked up anything last week. Although the audio from that episode was fucked up, we did fix it and re upload it. So. Sorry. To anyone that listened to the the first iteration of that.

[Lauren Garoni]

Well, I guess we preemptively have something to apologize for, which is. If you're wondering when we're going to talk about New York Fashion Week, Mark Jacobs latest show, our thoughts about the America's Next Top Model documentary on Netflix, we will be having that conversation shortly, but it will be on our VIP channels. So if you would like to hear our thoughts and listen to the episode that we have referenced several times in this episode, our favorite sex scenes in cinema history join our Patreon or Apple subscriptions.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Shall we have Sir Jessica Parker play us off today?

[Lauren Garoni]

If we must. All right, guys.

[Chelsea Fairless]

Bye Bye. Let's have a Kiki A kiki is a party for calming all your nerves

[Jake Shears]

we're spilling tea and dishing just desserts when they deserve and though the sun is rising Few may choose to leave so shave that lid and we'll all bid au to your ennui let's have a kiki I want to have a kiki Lock the doors tight. Let's have a kiki Mother, I'm going to let you have it. Let's have a kiki I want to have a kiki.

[Rocket Money Advertiser]

Turn.

[Jake Shears]

Let's have a kiki we're going to turn. And work and turn.

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