281: On Taylor’s Wedding, Madonna’s Comeback, Couture Week

Summary

Every Outfit – Episode 281: On Taylor’s Wedding, Madonna’s Comeback, Couture Week

Release Date: July 10, 2026
Hosts: Chelsea Fairless & Lauren Garroni

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Episode Overview

This episode is packed with fashion and pop culture hot takes, as Chelsea and Lauren dissect three of the week’s most headline-making events: the guest-packed, stadium-sized Taylor Swift & Travis Kelce wedding; Madonna’s celebrated return with her album Confessions 2; and a deep dive into the highs and lows of Paris Couture Week. Expect trademark biting humor, industry-insider details, and the kind of niche references only Every Outfit can deliver.

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Emmy Nominations: Fashion and TV’s Big Night

Timestamps: 00:46–09:19

Key Points

• Mariska Hargitay Hosting & SHMEMIs Explained

  • Mariska Hargitay is hosting (“Not really a fashion girl, but we love her the way she is.” – Chelsea, 01:56)
  • Technical Emmys, nicknamed “Shmemis” (with Kathy Griffin attribution)

• Costume Categories & Notable Snubs

  • “And Just Like That” lands a nomination for contemporary costume design; “Euphoria” snubbed
  • Euphoria actors (Zendaya, Colman Domingo) were nominated—snub is just for costumes
  • “The people deciding these nominees might be on meth or something.” – Chelsea, 03:23

• Drama/Comedy/Dramedy Blend

  • Calls for a “Dramedy” category

• Strong Nominee Showings

  • Hacks, Love Story, Beef, “Monster: The Ed Gein Story”
  • Laurie Metcalf double-nominated; Colman Domingo double-nominated; “double suck if you lose both” – Lauren, 06:52

• Celebrity Guest Stars and Surprises

  • “Who do you think will win the stacked guest star category?”
  • “Rob Reiner will get a posthumous Emmy, everyone will stand up and clap…and Connor’s story will lose.” – Lauren, 09:12

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Taylor Swift & Travis Kelce’s Stadium Wedding

Timestamps: 09:19–48:25

Main Discussion Points

• Venue, Vibes, and Guest List Chaos (11:38–19:02)

  • Defends Madison Square Garden: “These are not chic people...I don’t think everyone should try to be Carolyn Bessette Kennedy.” – Chelsea, 12:04
  • “Unlike 99.9% of people, they are comfortable with stadiums. That’s where they live.” – Lauren, 13:01

• Guest List: Surprises, Absences, and Gossip (14:07–28:46)

  • Lena Dunham’s outrageous speech about football: “American football is just straight guys reenacting gay porn.” – recounted by Lauren, 14:11
  • Scandalous guests (executive from ICE detention center) led to controversy and speculation about vetting
  • Notable attendees: Fergie, Dita Von Teese, Ari Aster (most random), Beck, Brad Pitt, Giovanni Ribisi, Karlie Kloss & Jared Kushner, Emma Stone, Bowen Yang, Nikki Glaser, Allison Roman, Zadie Smith, Kate Berlant, Gracie Abrams, Cindy Crawford (Bad Blood video), Niecy Nash & Jessica Betts, Spielberg, Baz Luhrmann
  • High-profile absences: Blake Lively, Jamie King, Katy Perry, Lorde, Lana Del Rey
  • “If you were not invited to this wedding, you’re not in Taylor and Travis’s life.” – Lauren, 32:45

• Wedding Details: The Spectacle (33:26–44:55)

  • Leaked décor: hallways with childhood photos, fairytale/cathedral-style ceremony spaces
  • Taylor walked down the aisle to an instrumental “Love Story” à la Bridgerton
  • Both Taylor and Travis wore Jonathan Anderson Dior (unexpected): “Could not imagine Jonathan Anderson dressing Mama Kelsey.” – Chelsea, 36:16
  • Vows lasted 20 minutes each, with Taylor singing part of hers; Adam Sandler officiated (39:09)
  • Performers: Paul McCartney (“I Want to Hold Your Hand”—first time in years), Stevie Nicks (unconfirmed song)
  • Jason & Kylie Kelsey’s four daughters as flower girls

• Wedding as Pop Culture Watershed (44:42–47:20)

  • “I think we’ll note time as before Taylor’s Madison Square Garden wedding and after. This sets a very bad precedent for the wealthy.” – Lauren, 44:44
  • Chelsea: Not sure others will follow, but acknowledges the Instagram-fueled “wedding industrial complex is exploding.”

Notable Quotes & Laugh Lines

• “I think Jamie Lee Curtis did win in this category in 2024 for that bear episode ‘Seven Fishes.’ Maybe the peak of The Bear. I’m not getting fooled again.” – Lauren, 05:18
• “A lot of people didn’t even know where they were going when they got in the car.” – Chelsea, 16:53
• “Was that Ari Aster? That is the weirdest person who was there, bar none.” – Chelsea, 17:09
• “If you were not invited to this wedding, you’re not in Taylor and Travis’s life.” – Lauren, 32:45
• “Who is more middle America than Adam Sandler?” – Chelsea, 39:19
• “Stevie Nicks performed—but we don’t know what! My one unanswerable question: What did Stevie perform?” – Chelsea, 42:42

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Madonna’s Comeback: ‘Confessions 2’ Analysis

Timestamps: 49:53–71:01

Album Reactions & Lore

• Critical Praise: A True Return to Form

  • “Obsessed with Confessions 2…it stands on its own…reaffirms Stuart Price as a great collaborator.” – Chelsea, 50:26
  • Album is more than just a sequel: “It feels like a spiritual retrospective of Madonna’s life and career.” – Lauren, 51:01

• Best Songs, Structure & Standout Moments

  • “The first half is Confessions-adjacent, then gets introspective—more Erotica, Bedtime Stories, Ray of Light by the end.” – Chelsea, 58:02

• Sean Penn Diss Track ‘Bizarre’

  • “I have absolutely no evidence of this, but even just the fact that she's writing a diss track about Sean Penn in 2026 is surprising.” – Chelsea, 52:34
  • Discussion of Madonna’s undying love for Sean Penn and their tumultuous history

• Intergenerational Drama: ‘The Test’ with Lourdes

  • “I think it’s Society...a song about identity, privacy, and the trauma of growing up in Madonna’s shadow.” – Chelsea, 61:44
  • Lyrical callbacks to earlier “Lourdes” songs like “Little Star”

• Favorite Songs

  • Namechecks: “Dance a Teria” (chronicles early-80s NYC club scene, name-drops Debbie Mazur), “Les Girl” (nostalgia, passage of time), “Good for the Soul,” “Love Without Words,” “School,” “One Step Away.”

• Where It Fits in Madonna’s Discography

  • “On par with Confessions and Music…not better than Like a Prayer or True Blue, but an important album.” – Chelsea, 66:10

Notable Quotes

• “Her most toxic trait is her undying love for Sean Penn.” – Lauren, 52:44
• “It’s crazy that a 68-year-old woman can come back into pride prominence.” – Lauren, 68:09
• “These are clothes for straight up freaks—satirizing fashion in the most extreme way.” – Chelsea, 97:11 (on Dreadlantink’s Jean Paul Gaultier collection—tying back into Madonna-esque extremes)

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Paris Couture Week: Hits, Misses & Key Collections

Timestamps: 71:49–99:53

General Mood & Trends

• Underwhelming Season?

  • “Some designers tried way too hard, others didn’t try enough. Maybe I’m just being a bitch.” – Chelsea, 71:52

• Marketing vs. Clientele

  • Shows now exist for social media as much as for buyers

• Schiaparelli by Daniel Roseberry

  • Horror and sci-fi references: Ghostface, xenomorph, Fifth Element–esque silicone pieces, silicone vagina midriffs (“very Judy Chicago’s Dinner Party once kind of vibes.” – Chelsea, 74:02)
  • “I think the first look was the best look”—classic, less gimmicky

• Robert Wun

  • “Couture for pop stars. When I saw the last couple of looks with balloons, I was like, this is a bad Central Saint Martin’s thesis collection.” – Chelsea, 78:02

• Standing Ground’s Debut Couture

  • Michael Stewart praised for “austere femininity,” comparing him to Alaïa, Mugler, Versace
  • “One to watch. He is doing for couture what others aren’t.” – Lauren, 80:38

• Olivier Theyskens at Boloria

  • “His preoccupation with Victorian mourning attire, Gothic clothing, still strong. Madonna wore his work in the Ray of Light era.” – Chelsea, 82:58
  • Consensus: a welcome comeback

• Jonathan Anderson’s First Dior Couture

  • Collaboration with sculptor Linda Benglis tied into “Santa Fe” vibes
  • “All Anna Wintour would wear…also wrap coats, fringe, shawls.” – Lauren, 86:11
  • Balancing classic Dior clientele with his own off-beat edge

• Matou Blasi at Chanel

  • Highly detailed, intentionally not “Instagrammable” clothes; bridal look placed mid-show, not at the end; inspired by Jumanji (flowers/beans motifs), and Jack and the Beanstalk—“References used to be so much more highbrow, and now it’s literally Jumanji.” – Chelsea, 92:12

• Pierpaolo Piccioli’s Balenciaga

  • “Could have literally been from 10 years ago”—critiques for lack of evolution from his Valentino years; classical gowns strong, accessories (like the motorcycle bag) panned

• Jean Paul Gaultier Couture by Dreadlantink

  • “Deeply weird…for straight-up freaks. Some looks are amazing, others repulsing—which means he’s doing something right.” – Chelsea, 97:11

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Memorable Moments & Quotes

• “Who is more middle America than Adam Sandler?” – Chelsea (on officiating Taylor’s wedding, 39:19)
• “These are clothes for, like, straight up freaks…satirizing fashion in the most extreme way.” – Chelsea (on Gaultier by Dreadlantink, 97:11)
• “This sets a very bad precedent. The 1% are not creative—except when screwing workers or insurance.” – Lauren (44:44)

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Key Timestamps

| Segment | Timestamp | |-----------------------------------------------|---------------| | Emmy Noms & Fashion | 00:46–09:19 | | Taylor Swift & Travis Kelce Wedding | 09:19–48:25 | | Madonna’s ‘Confessions 2’ | 49:53–71:01 | | Couture Week Hot Takes | 71:49–99:53 |

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In the Hosts' Own Words:

• “If you were not invited to this wedding, you’re not in Taylor and Travis’s life.” – Lauren (32:45)
• “A lot of people didn’t even know where they were going when they got in the car.” – Chelsea (16:53)
• “Her most toxic trait is her undying love for Sean Penn.” – Lauren (52:44)
• “Some designers tried too hard, others not enough. Maybe I’m just being a bitch.” – Chelsea (71:52)
• “These are clothes for straight up freaks—satirizing fashion in the most extreme way.” – Chelsea (97:11)

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Summary

Episode 281 is a rollercoaster of bitchy fashion commentary, deeply-specific name drops, and pop-cultural analysis. Chelsea and Lauren break down Taylor Swift’s wild stadium wedding—from security logistics to which pop stars didn’t make the cut—before lavishly praising Madonna’s transformative, retrospective Confessions 2. Their couture coverage spans from weary skepticism (“too much, not enough”) to sincere discovery (Standing Ground), all while anchoring the week's wild moments with sharp wit and encyclopedic fashion knowledge.

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For fans or those who missed it, this episode is classic Every Outfit: gossipy, passionate, and endlessly entertaining—delivering essential context on the fashion and celebrity events everyone’s talking about.

Transcript

[A]

I spent $40,000 on shoes.

[B]

What's the matter, Morty?

[A]

Great gowns.

[B]

Beautiful gowns.

[A]

Fashion has changed. No, it hasn't.

[B]

Hi, I'm Lauren Garone.

[A]

And I'm Chelsea Fairless.

[B]

And welcome back to the Every Outfit podcast. We truly have so much to talk about this week. Some might say too much to talk about this week. We are, of course, going to start with the most important pop culture story of last week. Whoopi Goldberg missed the View because she was stranded in Sicily due to a volcanic eruption.

[A]

I did hear about this.

[B]

I assume you have not watched the View this week because you were in lovely Palm Springs.

[A]

We. Yes. I just drove back right before we sat down to record, and I am seriously so depressed that I'm not by a pool right now.

[B]

We could have remotely recorded this. You could have recorded this by the pool if you wanted to.

[A]

I know. I wasn't thinking.

[B]

But I do appreciate you driving back so that I can see your beautiful eyes as we talk about, of course, the most important celebrity story of the week, Taylor Swift's wedding. But before we get into that, we're going to tease the audience some more. Let's discuss Emmy nominations.

[A]

Okay, so first and foremost, Mariska Hargitay is hosting, which is cool.

[B]

It is. Do you think she took the hosting gig because the documentary about her mother is also nominated? Sort of difficult to be a loser in a category if you're also the host. I say true.

[A]

I hope she wins. Not that I've seen all of the nominees in that category, but I loved my mom, Jane.

[B]

I hope she does what Sarah Jessica Parker did for the MTV Movie Awards. And every time she comes out, she's in a different outfit.

[A]

She doesn't really seem like a fashion girl. I think if she was, we would know by now. But that's fine. We love her the way she is. So I feel like we should begin by stating that. And just like that, was nominated for an Emmy for a SHMEMI in the contemporary costume design category.

[B]

Because. Because we have so many historical shows that they had to create a new category.

[A]

There's a historical costume category. Yes. So the Gilded Age is nominated in that category. And then there's also, like, a sci fi category at the Schmemis, which I like this. I wish the Oscars had a historical costume category versus a contemporary one.

[B]

I also wish, like the Emmys, they did their own separate award show, which I know the Academy does the Governor's Award show, but the Schmemis, coined by the great Kathy Griffin is the technical Emmys that happened the weekend before that are not broadcast.

[A]

Although I have some beef with the shmemis voting body because you know who was snubbed in the costume category?

[B]

Who?

[A]

Euphoria. And all's fair.

[B]

Okay, All's fair. That is a snub. Euphoria didn't miss the Emmys voting deadline. No.

[A]

Because Zendaya and Colman Domingo were both nominated in the acting categories.

[B]

Okay, that is an oversight. But perhaps the voting body couldn't get over Rue's kind of Adam Sandler esque wardrobe for the season.

[A]

I don't know. I think that the people deciding these nominees might be on meth or something like. That's crazy.

[B]

Okay. My conspiracy theory, because. And just like that was not nominated for best comedy or best drama. Dare I say we need a best dramedy category. But that's a conversation for another time. Do you think Michael Patrick King mounted this final season of the Comeback so that he could get nominated for an Emmy?

[A]

I don't think it's that simple. But he did get nominated for an Emmy. The Comeback was snubbed in the comedy series category, but he did get a writing nomination for the Comeback along with Lisa Kudrow. And Lisa Kudrow also got an acting nomination. Of course.

[B]

I know. But she is going up against Jean Smart for her last season of Hacks, which she's won many Emmys, and it is Lisa Kudrow's time. But there is something about the Emmy voting body that when they see a final season of a beloved show, they can't help but award it for sure.

[A]

And Hacks got a lot of nominations. A lot of people from the cast that were previously never nominated, like Meg Stalter, Paul Downs in the acting categories. Also, the girl that plays Jean Smart's daughter on the show was nominated.

[B]

Caitlin Olsen.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Well, that category that's like best guest star in a comedic series is just stacked with five hacks actors, including Terry Jones and Leslie Bibb. And then, like two other people from other shows. It's like, okay, which actor who guest starred on Hacks will be winning this category?

[A]

I don't know. I can see a world where who else is nominated in that category?

[B]

Okay, to just go over the people from Hacks that are nominated. Leslie Bibb, Cherry Jones, Lori Metcalf, Caitlyn Olsen, Lauren Weedman. And then also they are nominated with Jamie Lee Curtis for the Bear and Betty Gilpin for Widow's Bay.

[A]

See, I can see one of them winning either Betty Gilpin or Jamie Lee Curtis.

[B]

Jamie Lee Curtis did win in this category in 2024 for the excellent bear episode Seven Fishes. Maybe the peak of the bear. I won't even go near this final season because I'm not going to get fooled again.

[A]

Okay, can we talk about the fact that Laurie met Ca has two nominations actually, because she's in the best guest actor category. And she's also nominated for best supporting actress in a limited series for Monster the Ed Gein Story. Her range.

[B]

Did you watch this latest season of Monster?

[A]

I watched the first half of it and then I kind of lost interest.

[B]

That's kind of Ryan Murphy series in a nutshell.

[A]

I don't know. I think a lot of them are good. I certainly got through the Jeffrey Dahmer one, as disgusting and deeply depressing as it was. But there's something about these monster ones. They're extra hard to watch, I think, because we know that these crimes are real.

[B]

And Ryan Murphy is making us watch the hottest actors do the most disgusting things, which real, less hot people did in real life.

[A]

Yeah, like literally no one wanted to fuck Ed Gein. And rightfully so.

[B]

There's a lot of double nominees this year. Well, Widow's Bay got 19 nominations, but Matthew Reese was nominated for outstanding Lead actor in a Comedy series and outstanding Lead Actor in a limited series for remember Beast in Me.

[A]

Oh, yeah, that's the same guy.

[B]

It is the same guy. Range, right?

[A]

Also Colman Domingo nominated for Euphoria and also for the four seasons.

[B]

Now, exciting as it is to be a double nominee, it must double suck if you lose both categories.

[A]

Totally. You think Laurie Metcalf might have a rough night ahead of her?

[B]

I think Laurie Metcalf might go full scream too. She just gets up on stage and holds Barishka Hargitay hostage until someone gives her an Emmy.

[A]

Okay, what else? Love Story got a bunch of nominations. I'm very much rooting for that show in the limited series category. As much as I enjoyed Beef and yes, I did watch the Beast in Me. And what was the other one? All Her Fault?

[B]

Oh, yeah. Couldn't go there.

[A]

But that was much less highbrow than Love Story and Beef, certainly.

[B]

For sure. I mean Beast in Me and it's all her Fault. Seem like dressed up Lifetime series which we're here for, but we could really only metabolize one at a time. Yeah, but there were some notable snubs from Love Story. The guy who played JFK Jr did not get nominated. Not exactly surprising. What was surprising to me, Grace Gummer was Not nominated.

[A]

That is surprising. Although Constance Zimmer did get a nomination, which she, of course, deserved. I think Sarah Pigeon is winning this, of course.

[B]

And you saw that the director of Love Lies Bleeding Rose Glass is going to be directing the adaptation of My Year of Rest and Relaxation, which the rumor is now Sarah Pigeon would be perfect for the lead role.

[A]

Is that, like, an actual rumor, or are people on Twitter just being like, it should be her, Which I agree with. I think she would be great.

[B]

Hard to tell what's a tweet from Deadline and what's a random user. Just saying, this would be a good fan cast.

[A]

What's a tweet from Club Chalamet? Speaking of which, Connor's story nominated for hosting Saturday Night Live, Heated Rivalry, is of course disqualified, as it is tragically Canadian.

[B]

Yeah, I still don't quite understand that rule. So if it's an American production but shot in Canada, it can be nominated for an Emmy, but if it's a Canadian production, sorry.

[A]

So stupid.

[B]

But he's nominated for hosting SNL in the Outstanding Guest Actor in a Comedy Series category. But I do think, because Rob Reiner, who guest starred in the Bear, is also nominated in this category, I think he will be getting a posthumous Emmy. And everyone will stand up and clap

[A]

and cry, and Connor's story will lose

[B]

and cry, and Club Chalamet will, you know, potentially fight Mariska Hargitay. We don't know.

[A]

We'll burn down the theater. Okay, moving on. We have to get into Taylor's wedding, which of course happen at Madison Square Garden.

[B]

Oh, trigger warning, guys. We're going to talk about Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce's wedding for probably an uncomfortable amount of time.

[A]

And you know what? For the people that are like this, I just want to hear you guys talk about Madonna. We'll put the time stamp for the Madonna part in the show notes, so you can just skip ahead if you need to for mental health reasons, which I get. Today's episode is brought to you by Square, the business toolkit that helps you sell, manage, and grow, minus the chaos. You might be surprised, but we've been using Square for longer than we've had this podcast.

[B]

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[A]

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[A]

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[B]

Before I launch into my feelings about the wedding, I wanted to take your temperature about the nuptial, since you are the resident swifty.

[A]

I'm happy for her. I'm happy for them. I find it strange that people are horrified that she got married at Madison Square Garden because they think it's a tacky choice of venue. Like, these are not chic people.

[B]

You know, I was prepared to get one of your don't be a Lauren. But I was going to make the point that I have to say the taste level of this wedding is about what I expected from the two of them.

[A]

And I say that with love. Like, I don't think that everyone should be Carolyn Bessette Kennedy or should try to be.

[B]

And Taylor Swift was very upfront about the type of wedding she wanted. There's been this resurface Graham Norton clip where he, I think a year ago, asks about her wedding and she's like, oh, you'll know. And he's like, oh, because you're already planning it. And she goes, no, because I was going to invite you. And he's like, oh, if I'm getting an invite, then it's a big wedding. And guess what? Graham Norton was at the wedding and

[A]

that's what they wanted. Because if they wanted to have a very small, intimate wedding like JFK Jr. And Carolyn Bessette, they could do that. But if they want a big wedding, that's not really possible. There's too many potential leaks. They can't just go to some random castle in Ireland or some shit because they can't control the airspace. It's not like a fame level that is comparable to someone like Dua Lipa or someone that can just get married in Italy, you know?

[B]

Also, unlike 99.9% of people who live on this earth, they are comfortable with stadiums. That's where they live. The majority of their professional lives are in stadiums. I mean, I think I made this point when we originally talked about the wedding and the rumor was about Madison Square Garden of, like, if anyone knows how you can transform a stadium, it is Taylor Swift.

[A]

Totally. Also, I think that when a lot of people plan their own weddings, they're trying to make it the bougiest thing that's ever happened to them. You know what I mean? Like, the fanciest, the most beautiful. These people have been everywhere in the world. They've stayed at the best hotels. They've partied at the most fabulous places. I feel like they probably just wanted a private and safe place to get married and party with their friends, which is what I would want if I was them.

[B]

Yes. Look, you can elope. You can have a wedding that mixes family and friends, or you could do what she did, which most of us do not have the luxury or finances or really bandwidth to do, which is invite every single person you've ever met in your life.

[A]

Okay, can we start by discussing the most unexpected guests? Sure.

[B]

I mean, in knowing I was going to talk about this wedding with you, I really have been trying to grapple with this event. And I'm not being sarcastic when I say that. Like, I've been trying to get my head around a wedding at Madison Square Garden for a thousand people that had the supposed executive chair of a company that oversees the largest ice detention center, but also had Lena Dunham doing a speech where she allegedly said, american football is just straight guys reenacting gay porn. A lot of things going on at this wedding.

[A]

Okay, well, now I guess we have to get into both of those things. I'm not surprised that Lena Dunham made an inappropriate speech. If she was my friend, I would absolutely want her to do that at my wedding. I am surprised that she went with this particular joke, though, just because I feel like it is a common and known joke about football.

[B]

I also wonder, and I've been seeing a lot of commentary from the Swifty community, a lot of baggage I don't have because I am not a swiftie. But a lot of people trying to reckon with this guest list. And I have been mulling it over in my head. If you have a guest list of over a thousand people, do you look at all the names? Do you have a dossier on every person?

[A]

I don't think they vetted everyone. Hence the ICE detention center guy. Because this guy was the fucking father of one of Travis's childhood friends, I believe.

[B]

Yes.

[A]

And honestly, I did no research into that at all. That is just my understanding of how he came to be there. Although I know that they did vet some people because, like, more problematic football players were excluded from this on the basis of their political views. So I think that guy probably fell through the cracks.

[B]

In all likelihood, I'm not justifying it, but to say I've heard this commentary of like, this is an all maga wedding. It's like, no, it's not. That's what actually makes it more confusing.

[A]

Well, people on the left and the right should theoretically be able to coexist. No.

[B]

In the largest stadium in New York City. See, for me, my favorite unexpected guess were the people behind the more famous people in the SUVs. Like, for instance, there was a shot of Fergie, but I was more interested in the fact that Dita Von Teese was coming out of the SUV behind her.

[A]

Well, Dita Von Teese was in the Bejeweled music video, as you'll recall.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. I get why Dita Von Teese got the invite, but I'm like, how do you and Fergie know each other?

[A]

I know, I did wonder the same thing.

[B]

I have so many logistical questions, like, were those SUVs provided? Yes, but then you saw people like Bowen Yang and Nikki Glaser leaving in taxis.

[A]

I heard that a lot of people didn't even know where they were going when they got in the car.

[B]

Do you think Ari Aster knew where he was going? Because I love the people that were able to ID him behind Emma Stone leaving the Taylor Swift Travis Kelce wedding.

[A]

That is the weirdest person who was there, bar none.

[B]

Okay, so People magazine ran like 170 photo spread of everyone who was there. The other I was like, wait, how do you guys know each other? Was Giovanni Ribisi went to the wedding,

[A]

as did Beck, who came with Brad

[B]

Pitt, which Giovanni Ribisi lore only I think the two of us care about and our few Gen X listeners. But Giovanni Ribisi's sister, Marissa Ribisi was married to Beck. They recently got a divorce. And allegedly Beck has left the Church of Scientology, which the Ribisi's may still be in.

[A]

That's so great. For Beck, it is.

[B]

But imagine running into Giovanni Ribisi, looking at him across the stadium, right.

[A]

And he's just thinking that you're a suppressive person. That would suck. But Ari Aster is crazy, because it's wild to see someone with such a dark worldview attend an event like this. It made me wish for him to write a film framed around a wedding.

[B]

We don't know that. He won't.

[A]

We don't know that. Also, Carly Kloss came with Jared Kushner,

[B]

had to buy a ticket to see the Heirs tour, but evidently scored her own invite to this wedding.

[A]

Well, clearly they've mended fences since then.

[B]

You know who clearly hasn't mended fences would be Taylor Swift and Blake Lively. Blake Lively. Nor her four daughters, who. Taylor Swift is the godmother of some, if not all of them.

[A]

That surprised me just because on Taylor's last album, the Life of a Showgirl, there was this song called Cancelled. It was about how she likes her friends to be canceled. It had a lyric, I like them cloaked in Gucci and in scandal, which I took to be about Blake Lively in that whole Justin Baldoni drama. But when you think about it, like, it could be about Lena Dunham. It could be about anyone.

[B]

It could be about Patrick Mahomes wife who was at the wedding.

[A]

Yeah. So that was a big reveal. That was perhaps the most newsworthy thing about this wedding.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, I can speak from my own experience that when you are not invited to a friend's wedding, that is the clearest sign that your friendship is over. That's how I learned that a friendship I had had with a friend. I was like, oh, okay. I guess we're not friends anymore. Got it.

[A]

I know when one day you wake up and see your friend's wedding on

[B]

Instagram and you're not there.

[A]

A unique experience. There were a bunch of people there that fall into the sort of millennial hipster icon category. I would include Zadie Smith, Allison Roman. Kate Berlant was there because she's dating one of the Muna people.

[B]

Oh, got it.

[A]

I did not know that Allison Roman and Taylor Swift had any sort of relationship. But I googled this, and I found an old New Yorker profile of Allison Roman where she discussed the fact that Taylor Swift, a fan, and that Taylor Swift's favorite Alison Roman recipes are her baked ziti, her tomato poached fish with chili oil and herbs, and the caramelized shallot pasta, which, of course, is major. That's a big one.

[B]

I love to see them together. I Would love to know Alison Roman's take on the food, which was evidently either buffet style or there were past hors d' oeuvres or a mixture of the two.

[A]

I read buffet, but I'm sure that there were past hors d' oeuvres as well.

[B]

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[A]

Who knows though? We weren't there, unfortunately.

[B]

Okay, can we discuss the fact that Jack Antonoff went without Margaret Qualley and you and I were texting back and forth and we were like, that doesn't mean anything. Lena's there. I'm sure Margaret Qualley didn't want to take attention away from Taylor's wedding by, you know, showing up and maybe creating conversation. Although with a thousand people, can there be drama, Right? Turns out we're wrong. Margaret Qualley and Jack Antonoff just announced they're separating.

[A]

She read Fame Sick and was like, I see a pattern here. That makes me sad. It makes me sad when any marriage ends after three years, because that is, like, not long enough to grow to resent someone. That's such a short period of time that you either had the most tumultuous, toxic relationship to begin with or something bad happened, like someone cheated or something.

[B]

So you're like, your marriage needs to end, like, within 72 days. Like Kim Kardashian, Kris Humphries, or. You gotta give it five years, guys.

[A]

Five years. I would say a decade.

[B]

Wow. Okay. Hot take.

[A]

I just don't think that three years is a long time. It feels like only yesterday that we were discussing Jack Antonoff and Margaret Qualley's wedding.

[B]

Moving on. Can we discuss that Hugh Grant was at the wedding? Do you understand their connection? Because I don't. No, because there was a group of people where it was like, okay, you were on Travis Kelce and Jason Kelce's podcast within the last year. Like Brad Pitt, where it's like, I kind of get where this invitation came from. Hugh Grant couldn't figure out the connection.

[A]

I would invite Hugh Grant to my wedding if he would show up. Who doesn't love Hugh Grant? But, yeah, there were random actors there. Paul Rudd was there. Adam Scott was there. Ethan Hawke was there, which makes a bit more sense because he was in the Fortnite music video.

[B]

Oh, that Fortnite. Not the game.

[A]

Not the game.

[B]

There are people that I'm looking at, the list you compiled that I'm just learning went to the wedding. Like Ronan Farrow and Jared Carmichael.

[A]

Yeah, those were the gays that were present. Bowen Yang was also there. Ronan Farrow. Didn't know they were friends, but there are photos of them that have been taken in the past. So they do have an established relationship. I don't think it's completely random. And obviously they are both prominent figures within the MeToo movement, so there's that.

[B]

Do you think that's the connection? She was like, loved your New Yorker reporting.

[A]

Probably. I mean, Glennon Doyle is there because she loved her book Untamed that she read during the pandemic. But that also surprised me because I didn't realize, like, they were that close. But I don't think they are, necessarily, because they were invited, but just an interesting person to see at the wedding.

[B]

Were There other prominent Celesbians there?

[A]

Oh, yes. Niecy Nash and her wife, Jessica Betts, who I think are the only people that were at Taylor Swift's wedding and Kanye's recent stadium shows in Los Angeles.

[B]

Steven Spielberg was there, as well as Baz Luhrmann. Baz Luhrmann makes more sense to me than Steven Spielberg.

[A]

Yeah. I wonder what conversation happened with, like, Ari Aster and Steven Spielberg and Baz. Like, I wonder if they linked up.

[B]

I wonder if, like us, there were people at the wedding who learned after the fact that other people, they would have wanted to have a conversation were indeed at the wedding. Like, do you think Ari Aster was? Like, Spielberg was there.

[A]

I can totally see that. There were a lot of pop stars in attendance. Gracie Abrams is obvious, but also JLo, that was confusing.

[B]

So Baz Luhrmann, Spielberg, Ari Aster, Gracie Abrams there. Her father, the writer, director, J.J. abrams, didn't score an invite.

[A]

No. Tate McCray was there. Camila Cabello, Selena Gomez. Of course, Kesha didn't realize Taylor Swift was close with Kesha. Also, apparently this wedding devolved into a karaoke situation where Ke Doll TikTok, among other hits of hers.

[B]

Why not? I'm sure for Travis, there were, like, video games and Cruising USA if you wanted to play if you were bored at the wedding.

[A]

Sabrina Carpenter was there. Of course. She looked gorgeous in rote.

[B]

I was wondering why someone like Cindy Crawford was at the wedding. And then you reminded me that she's one of the women in Bad Blood

[A]

in the music video for Bad Blood. Yes. Many of the Bad Blood girls were present. Selena, Karlie Kloss, Mariska Hargitay, of course, Lita Dunham, Gigi Hadid, and Cindy. And also Kaia Gerber was there, although she was not in the Bad Blood video.

[B]

And I cannot confirm or deny, I think Jessica Alba was also at the wedding. But then she was just in Italy a couple of days ago with her boyfriend, so I'm not sure I felt like she was at the wedding. I feel like there was some BTS photos of her in New York, but.

[A]

Right. The Bad Blood people that I know were absent. Hailee Steinfeld, Ellie Goulding, Zendaya, Ellen Pompeo, Cara Delevingne, Marcia Hunt, Lily Aldridge.

[B]

I mean, Zendaya promoting the Odyssey. So that might be a conflict. Although another person who I would have thought would be at that wedding was Anna Wintour. But from everything I've read, she was not. She was at Wimbledon when this wedding was going on. And so I was like, I. I get it. She's got Wimbledon, she's got Paris Couture Fashion Week. But then I saw Karlie Kloss went to the wedding, and then that Monday, she was at the Schiaparelli Couture show. So it is possible if Taylor was

[A]

revealing her wedding photos in Vogue, Anna would have been there. There were a lot of people there that Taylor has business relationships with, like the head of Disney, the head of AMC Theaters who was there.

[B]

I know. That was such a headless take when people were like, like, oh, why is the CEO of AMC there? It's like, again, not the biggest Taylor Swift fan. Even I know that AMC exclusively ran the ERAs tour in the theaters. Right.

[A]

And the life of a Showgirl thing. There's, of course, been speculation that this wedding will be released at some point as a documentary, potentially something in an AMC theater. That would be amazing. But I also can see Taylor, like, using footage from the wedding in something a little more low st, like a music video or something.

[B]

I will say for how public this wedding was and the inherently bizarre optics of getting married in a stadium, which we can get into in a little bit. But as of the time of recording, no photo of their wedding has been released.

[A]

I'm sure it'll come out the second after we stop recording, as it always does.

[B]

Okay, other notable snubs.

[A]

Well, speaking of bad blood, Katy Perry was not there, although I feel like if she was, it would just be, like, a little too awkward because of that resurfaced clip of Travis Kelsey talking about the Mary Kill thing. Like, I feel like if she had come, it would have been its own news cycle because of that and because how awkward. Taylor Swift, Ariana Grande, Katy Perry, Kill, Mary Kiss.

[B]

Damn, that's messed up. I don't want to kill any of them. Well, you know, it's just the game. Ariana is kill, unfortunately. Love you, but you're gone. And then Taylor Swift would be the kiss. And then Katy Perry.

[A]

What's the last one?

[B]

Katy Perry. Katy Perry would be the Perry. He's like, yes. I mean, it already was a news cycle with this resurface video, which I doubt Taylor Swift even knew existed.

[A]

Of course she knows it exists.

[B]

Oh, you think her publicist, Tree Payne, is showing her?

[A]

It's just been around for a really long time. Like the second that she started dating him, him this came out. Look, at least he didn't say he would kill Taylor. That would have been really awkward.

[B]

There's still time.

[A]

Other snubs. Jamie King also has a child that Taylor is the godmother of. She was not there.

[B]

Jamie King seems to be going through it, so that's understandable.

[A]

I don't know. I would hope that if I relapsed into drug addiction, that my close friend who is the godmother of my child wouldn't disown me. But I obviously have no knowledge of this situation. And I don't know what. What's up with Jamie King these days. Last I heard, custody of her children was awarded to her ex and she was, you know, forced to do some sort of court mandated rehab. But there haven't really been any updates about that since.

[B]

We also don't know what the breaking point between Blake Lively and Taylor Swift was.

[A]

It had to be related to this Justin Baldoni situation. Just because of the timeline, I would imagine.

[B]

I would think so too, but I don't know. I saw something from Taylor Swift fans who were like, actually.

[A]

Also, did you see that video that him and his wife released?

[B]

Yes, because your wife sent it to me and just wrote, chelsea wants me to send this to you.

[A]

Oh, okay. Glad you saw it.

[B]

It was a whole lot of nothing. I mean, to be fair, I scrubbed through it because I was like, what are they trying to say?

[A]

It made me side with Blake Lively, even momentarily, because they were like, like, you know, we haven't wanted to speak on this. We're breaking our silence. But then they literally said nothing about the case, nothing about Blake Lively.

[B]

They're just here and they're alive and they're living strongly within their Baha' I faith.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

So Justin Baldoni wasn't there is what we're trying to say.

[A]

He was not there. Who else was not there? Ruby Rose. Not there. She was, like, in Taylor's little lesbian circle back in the day, along with Cara Delevingne. Lorde was not there. We don't really know why Taylor and Lourde fell out. I don't know if it's because Taylor sided with Lena Dunham and the whole situation.

[B]

God, I mean, these are the conversations I would love to know. I'm sure Taylor was like, well, Jack's gonna bring Margaret and I'm inviting Lena. And if I have Lord, that's just gonna be too much.

[A]

I don't know. We haven't seen any evidence of them being friends in a really long time. I don't think that's happening anymore and

[B]

they never will be again. I mean, it feels like if you were not invited to this wedding, you're not in Taylor and Travis's life.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Like, if you were a childhood friend of Travis Kelce's and you thought you would be invited to this wedding. And then you turn on Saturday morning Good Morning America and see that all three anchors were invited, but you weren't safe to say the friendship is over.

[A]

Yeah, I was sad that Lana was not there. Not that I expected her to be there necessarily. Obviously Taylor wasn't at her wedding to the alligator tour guide guy, but would have liked to see that if for no other reason than Lana and her husband could hang with all of the other like non coastal elite guests.

[B]

I don't know. They had something to do, I guess.

[A]

So shall we get into what we do know about the wedding itself?

[B]

Which again is shockingly very little for how public and seemingly ostentatious the wedding was just by virtue of renting out Madison Square Garden and blocking off off several essential streets to Penn Station the day before a major American holiday.

[A]

Well, maybe the guests had to like sign NDAs that said that they would be executed or something.

[B]

All we have are these two leaked photos from the Daily Mail. One that shows a hallway which had been described, I think in a People magazine story that there was a hallway that showed photos of Taylor and Travis together and as they were growing up, which proved to be true in the this image. And then what seems to be where their ceremony happened, maybe during the rehearsal, which if you have not seen this photo. And this might elicit another don't be a bitch, Lauren. But kind of look like what you would imagine Thomas Kincaid, the painter would draw what he thought an English cathedral might look like.

[A]

Right? Yeah, they built some castle in there. They're on some fairy tale bullshit. Clearly. So Taylor allegedly walked down the aisle to an instrumental version. Love Story. Very Bridgerton.

[B]

Yeah, I first heard that it was the Bridgerton theme. And then I saw it was reported that she walked down the aisle to her own song. Something that neither of us predicted is that the bride and groom wore Jonathan Anderson Dior.

[A]

So strange.

[B]

You and Ione last week thought that she would be wearing Vivienne Westwood.

[A]

I thought that she would be wearing a designer that does more historical fairy tale adjacent type shit. Like a Valentino. Like a Vivienne Westwood. She's worn Dior before, but not since Jonathan Anderson got that job. And she's never worn Loewe on a red carpet, ever. She wore one dress once when she visited a children's hospital, but that's it. So obviously we wouldn't think like this is the designer that she would choose for her big day.

[B]

Oh my God, you really are a Stan.

[A]

Well, I googled it. It's not like I knew that before I learned of this information. I just wondered like, has she ever worn his designs before?

[B]

I thought she would wear a custom dress by Oscar de la Renta. That is what I thought.

[A]

Yeah. Or Ralph Lauren or something that feels more in the world of Taylor Swift. Obviously Dior is a very traditional feminine label, so it's not surprising in that regard. But the fact that Jonathan Anderson didn't just dress her and Travis dress the whole wedding party, including Mama Kelsey. Like I could not imagine that Jonathan Anderson would be dressing Mama Kelsey.

[B]

Obviously Taylor Swift is going to control how this narrative comes out, but man, do I wish for a Vogue video of Mama Kelsey getting fitted by Jonathan Anderson at the Dior atelier.

[A]

Would love to see it.

[B]

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[B]

We should also say that her now nieces, Jason and Kylie, Kelsey's four daughters, were the flower girls. That's why she couldn't invite Blake.

[A]

Too many flower girls.

[B]

But she didn't have a bunch of bridesmaids, and he didn't have a bunch of groomsmen. Right. Her brother was her dude of honor, whatever we want to call it.

[A]

I understand the logic there, because I feel like her picking her bridesmaids would be too dramatic of an ordeal that she probably would rather just opt out of the whole thing.

[B]

Although Travis did pick his brother, which makes sense. I mean, they each picked their brother.

[A]

Yeah, it makes sense to that each of them just picked their brother instead of her having to weed out, like, half of her friends, you know, or have, like, 20 bridesmaids.

[B]

So it makes sense to me that Adam Sandler was invited. Travis Kelce was in Happy Gilmore too. What I couldn't have expected was that Adam Sandler officiated the ceremony.

[A]

I totally understand that. Like, who is more middle America than Adam Sandler? Like, Adam Sandler is the most massive ass person that exists.

[B]

Well, I also don't know how much work he had to do, because according to reports, Taylor Swift and Travis kelsey's vows were 20 minutes each. Horrible.

[A]

Can you imagine?

[B]

I mean, I believe you and I are under the strict belief that ceremonies should be 30 minutes max, all in.

[A]

Yeah, I think 10 minutes is the cutoff point for vows.

[B]

They wrote their own vows. Reportedly, Taylor Swift sung some of hers.

[A]

Look, at least Taylor Swift is, like, known to be a good writer. What did Travis spend 20 minutes talking about?

[B]

Well, we also know that Taylor Swift has a preoccupation with high school, which she, of course, worked into her vows, according to People. Taylor talked about how Travis was the guy in high school who, even though he was the star athlete, would go sit with the less popular kids who were being bullied at lunchtime.

[A]

Was that her?

[B]

Yes. And Taylor talked about how she wished she knew someone like that when she was in high school. Wasn't she pulled out of high school at, like, 15 to go be a country star?

[A]

I don't know about the intricacies of her education, but, yes, I get the impression that she did not have a normal high school experience.

[B]

Okay, so Stevie nicks and Paul McCartney performed. Paul McCartney performed I Want to hold,

[A]

you'd Handle, which is apparently the first time he's Performed it in, like, a million years.

[B]

I mean, the idea of Paul McCartney being the literal wedding singer, like, from the way this has been reported, like, guests are waiting at the buffet line, and he's just singing a song he hasn't sung in decades.

[A]

Again, if I could get Paul McCartney to perform at my wedding, I would.

[B]

So before this wedding, we had posited, like, oh, there's gonna be an almost benefit, like, concert for the cerem. But thus far, there's been no reporting about anything around that. Although we do know Stevie Nicks performed, But we don't know what.

[A]

Yeah. And it's very possible that someone else performed. We just don't know that information. I wonder what Stevie performed, because she performed Landslide at the Heim sister wedding, which just happened. So it would be kind of weird if she did that again. And also, I feel like Landslide is actually, like, a very sad song. Like, it's a romantic song, but. But it's also a song about ambition and aging and grief and stuff. You know, most Stevie Nick songs are actually very sad when you think about it.

[B]

So really, you want Stevie to be a cover artist? You want her to cover, like, Unchained Melody or something?

[A]

No, I don't want her to sing Unchained Melody. But I just think there's very few songs that would be appropriate for a wedding. I think Crystal is a rare exception that would make sense at a wedding. This is more of a deep cut, but the song angel from Tusk is, I think, think one of the only songs that I can think of, like, from the Fleetwood Mac period. That is just like a love song. I feel like with that band, it was always Christine McVie that was writing the songs that were, you know, optimistic about relationships.

[B]

So this is your biggest unanswerable question from the Taylor Swift wedding.

[A]

Yes. What did Stevie perform?

[B]

Of course, I'm just sort of left stunned a week on this. A private citizen can do this for a wedding. It obviously makes a lot of sense for Taylor Swift and Travis Kelce, but, you know, at once it is a vulgar display of wealth. And I'm not being hyperbolic when I say this. I think we will note time as the time before Taylor Swift got married at Madison Square Garden and the time after, Because I think this wedding sets a very bad precedent with very wealthy people. People, like, say what you want about the 1%. They are not terribly creative unless it's screwing their workers out of a fair wage or, like, insurance. But that Bezos Sanchez wedding was essentially aping George Clooney and A Mall's Venice wedding. I say all of this to say that I think a lot of wealthy people are looking at the TNT Madison Square Garden wedding and going, oh, I didn't know you could do that.

[A]

I don't know. I don't think anyone else would want to do this necessarily. They have a fame level that is not comparable to any other celebrity, really. And the ultra wealthy, there's not many of them that are that famous, obviously. Jeff Bezos, Lauren Sanchez, Elon Musk, exceptions. But most of these people fly under the radar, are not household names. Also with Madison Square Garden, there have been weddings there before Sly from Sly and the Family Stone got married there in the 70s. It was a very chic wedding. Him and his wife got married in like matching, like sequin Halston ensembles. There was lots of like fabulous fashion people in attendance, kids. So I don't know. I think you could have a chic wedding at Madison Square Garden if you wanted to. It's possible. But Taylor and Travis are their own people. This is the wedding they wanted. And I think really, really wealthy people, they're obsessed with spending money on their weddings anyway. It's just like part of the culture. And honestly, not even ultra wealthy people, average people. Now, I think because of Instagram, the wedding industrial complex is exploding in a way that it never really has before. Because now average people can get their wedding in Vogue weddings or something. Whereas before that was such a gate kept thing.

[B]

Yes. Which has now led to one of my favorite TikTok series, which is the woman that does the Vogue magazine to divorce pipeline where she just covers past Vogue weddings. And there's a high percentage of these weddings or marriages that end in divorce.

[A]

Is it consistent with like general divorce statistics or is it like even higher? Is it like a 75% chance of divorce if your wedding is photographed in Vogue?

[B]

I have no numbers to back this up, but I'm going to say actually if your wedding is featured in Vogue magazine, you are 75% more likely to get a divorce. The divorce rate is actually decreasing.

[A]

Interesting.

[B]

I don't know. I think that the ultra wealthy. Yes. Would not necessarily want to have their wedding at a stadium. But it's like, I think it's just the like, ooh, I didn't know you could do that.

[A]

Well, I think people should consider getting married in theaters. This isn't the most attractive venue in New York City, but like you would think that a wedding would be better suited to even like Radio City Music hall or something. But they probably don't have the level of security that Madison Square Garden can provide. And also, I don't know if you can like, you can't move the seats out of there. Madison Square Garden can be turned around for literally anything, apparently.

[B]

Yes. And it has the infrastructure of the privacy that someone like Taylor Swift. Swift not only needs, but is used to. But it's just, it's just sort of astonishing that I know you love Taylor Swift and I understand why she had the wedding at Mass in the Square Garden. But like, the subtext is now text. Like quite literally, as the plebes are baking underground in an UN air conditioned pen station, waiting for their trains to Long island or whatever. Above them are hundreds and hundreds of the wealthiest people in pop culture are being served hors d' oeuvres and serenaded by Paul McCartney in a climate controlled environment.

[A]

Okay, so just because the New York transit system is a literal nightmare, which it's always been, you can't get married or experience air conditioning. Sorry, I'm a tailored defender on this one. Yes, I agree that people spend a disproportionate amount of money on weddings. Yes, I agree that wealth inequality is one of the biggest issues facing the world at this point. But I also think that someone like Taylor just. There are unique security concerns that do not apply to literally anyone else.

[B]

I get it. Again, this is what I'm trying to say is what I'm left with a week on from this wedding is like, wow, a private citizen, albeit a very wealthy one and a beloved one, can just do that, can just have, you know, a police detail and shut down streets.

[A]

And in Mom d' Amistan of all places.

[B]

Those were my favorite style of tweets of like Madani. How can you not stop? This is.

[A]

Well, they did donate millions of dollars to various non profits in the city.

[B]

Sure. I mean, there was a guy that was interviewed. I don't know if you saw this interview. He runs a midtown bar and he was left in the dark. Not literally, but sort of. Did not know if people would be able to visit his bar as it was July 4th, the World Cup. He had even made special menus of Travis and Taylor Swift themed cocktails. And unfortunately, his bar was unable to function because of Taylor Swift's wedding. But knowing Taylor and her PR apparatus, I'm sure she funded that guy's bar. I'm sure there was a donation made.

[A]

I hope so.

[B]

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[A]

okay, moving on to a less divisive diva Madonna. Well, I guess she wasn't always less divisive. I guess that's more of a recent thing.

[B]

Sorry. I'm going to add a third category of my favorite style of tweet about Taylor Swift's wedding, which was Madonna stans saying that Taylor Swift purposely got married the day that Madonna was releasing Confessions 2 to take attention away from her.

[A]

See, that's the kind of brain rot that I would associate with Taylor Swift fans, but not Madonna fans.

[B]

All right, what did you think of Confessions 2?

[A]

Obviously, I'm obsessed with Confessions too. I've been listening to it all week. It's definitely the best album since the first Confessions record, which came out in 2005. And honestly, I don't even think she needed the name recognition of Confessions to market this record. It stands on its own. Although of course this is her reunion with the producer Stuart Price, and it very much reaffirms his status as as one of her great collaborators.

[B]

Wouldn't it be great if I was like, eh, I didn't love it.

[A]

It would be fine if you did.

[B]

No, I mean the album is Said to be a sequel to Confessions on the Dance Floor. But to me, it more feels like this spiritual retrospective of Madonna's life and career. In listening to the album, I hear more eras of Madonna than just Confessions. Totally. And I feel like it encompasses, in one way or another, elements from each

[A]

era of Madonna, which is certainly no accident. And this comes after a string of Madonna albums that were not so great. I think Hard Candy had its moments, but mdma, Madame X, Rebel Heart are not albums that I can reasonably make a case for. And I honestly thought that she would not have a record like this again because of those records.

[B]

Yeah. I feel like, think because in reading the press she's done around this album and explaining the years she essentially lost, making her own biopic that ultimately fell apart, and the fact that her last tour was this career retrospective, I think all of that influenced the making of this album. More so than it being a sequel to Confessions on the Dance Floor.

[A]

Totally. She has largely avoided her own history, really. Up until the Celebration tour, which was a greatest hits tour, was her version of the Heiress tour, for all intents and purposes. And I wonder if even some of these songs potentially might have been written with that movie in mind or for that movie.

[B]

Oh, that's interesting.

[A]

I have absolutely no evidence of this, but even just the fact that she's writing a diss track about Sean Penn in 20276 is very surprising.

[B]

Okay, I don't think it's that surprising. You're talking about the song Bizarre because I maintain that Madonna's most toxic trait is her seemingly undying love for Sean Penn. Yeah, Madonna married Guy Ritchie. They had a child. She has had many other lovers. I think, like she said in the documentary Truth or Dare, her great love, the love of her life, wife, is unfortunately, Sean Penn.

[A]

It might be. People believe this song is about him because it overtly references a movie star with blue eyes. She makes reference to a car that she bought him during the course of their marriage. And it's just crazy that she did this because we already got the Sean Penn song from her. And that was Till Death Do Us Part, which was on Like a Pro Prayer. And that song was very different than this.

[B]

Right. And that song that was on Like a Prayer came out the year that they divorced, 1989.

[A]

Right. And that was a much darker song. Like, there were overt references to domestic violence in the lyrics to that song,

[B]

which has long been a rumor about the two of them that, you know, Sean Penn at one point tied Madonna up, up, potentially beat her with A baseball bat when they were living in Malibu. The Malibu police officer that responded has given testimony about this. Ooh, should I not talk about this because I like, Lee Daniels might be slapped by Sean Penn with a defamation lawsuit. Do you remember this?

[A]

Of course. And this is purely speculative, but yes. This story about Madonna and Sean Penn has been around for a really long time. I read several unauthorized biographies of Madonna when I was a child that included this story. And I believe what happened is they had some sort of domestic dispute that was violent. Madonna left, like, went to the police station, filed a complaint that he had been abusive. The cops then came to their house to do some sort of wellness check. I believe they have to ask, like, are there firearms in the house? And she said yes. And. And they came, talked to Sean Penn, and then she shortly thereafter dropped the complaint. And then they got divorced. Then she writes till death do us part. And then, yes, years later, Lee Daniels references this domestic violence incident, alleged domestic

[B]

violence incident, in reference to talking about Terrence Howard, who had at the time was the star of Lee Daniels show Empire there was embroiled in a scandal because he admitted to punching his ex wife. Daniels then told the Hollywood Reporter that Terrence Howard didn't do anything different than Marlon Brando or Sean Penn. And all of a sudden he's some fucking demon.

[A]

Okay, I've made some questionable arguments on this podcast over the years, but that is truly crazy. It's like, as if, like we shouldn't care about Terrence Howard because there is a racist double standard about domestic violence. It's no one should be beating their wives regardless of race.

[B]

And even worse, Sean Penn sued him for defamation. Madonna gave a sworn affidavit in this lawsuit siding with Sean Penn, saying, Sean has never struck me, tied me up, or physically assaulted me. And any report to the contrary is completely outrageous, malicious, reckless and false. Sean Penn and Lee Daniels came to a settlement where Lee Daniels had to release a public apology as well as donate to Sean Pe Haitian relief organization. The public statement is just so embarrassing. And honestly, as someone that does, like you said, talk a lot of shit on this podcast, a public apology I hope I never have to make. This is what Lee Daniels had to say publicly. I am so sorry that I hurt you, Shawn, and I apologize or retract my reckless statements about you. How thoughtless of me you are. Someone I consider a friend, a brilliant actor, and a true Hollywood legend and humanitarian.

[A]

It's a wild situation because I personally like only really believed that because of this song that Madonna wrote about it, you know, in addition to the other sort of known things about this incident. But it's fascinating. And this song, I think, speaks to the contradictions that come with a relationship like that.

[B]

It's an aptly named song Bizarre. I was going to invoke Sean Penn's second wife, Robin Wright Penn, who, like Madonna, left him multiple times in their marriage and kept coming back. So I don't know what seductive drug is within Sean Penn and that leathery, smoking, three packs a day skin. But, you know, his third wife was who he considered the most beautiful woman in the world. The one that was in the Cate Blanchett series, who's Vincent d' Onofrio's daughter.

[A]

Oh, yeah.

[B]

With Greta Sachi.

[A]

Dad. Damn. So there's a lot going on with that particular song, but it's just crazy that she would bring this up now.

[B]

Again, I think this album is more a life and career retrospective than a sequel to Confessions on the dance floor. The album is evenly split between songs that have a lot of Madonna lore and, like, songs that are just bops.

[A]

Yeah. I would say the first half of the album is more Confessions adjacent, sonically, anyway. And then things get a little bit bit more introspective. There are songs that are a little more Erotica Bedtime Story, Ray of Lighty towards the end of the album.

[B]

Yeah. Do you want to get into those?

[A]

So the songs that remind me of Erotica are my sins are my savior and Betrayal.

[B]

Yeah. The music, sonically, as you said in those two tracks, feel less disco or dance, more trip hop influence. And even her delivery of the lyrics are closer to how she was singing during the erotica bedtime stories era.

[A]

And I think that's a great lane for her now. I think all of that still works for her. Now. She can't really make songs like dress you up now that doesn't make sense. But this, I think, really works for her. Although there's something about betrayal that like, tat was like, this sounds like this could be on the Sex and the City 2 soundtrack. Like Samantha could be getting fucked on the beach to this song. Song. And I agree, I wish. And yeah, on my sins or my savior, it's a bit like Erotica, the song, kind of like in the world of I'd rather be your lover, which was on Bedtime Stories, the lyrics to that song are referenced in another song. I forget which one.

[B]

I think it's a very successful lane. I will say a lot of this album and a lot of the past 10 years of Madonna is less her singing and a lot of just poem esque delivery. We see this the most, I think in the song the Test.

[A]

Right. There's like a spoken word element to it for sure.

[B]

The Test, which is the song that she co wrote with her daughter Lourdes Lyon, was my most anticipated track. Unfortunately, I do have to say I think it is a weak point on the album. Now it's heavy on the lore of Madonna and Lourdes strained relationship, but it

[A]

isn't actually like we know it's about that. But they don't really spill tea Like Madonna spills more tea on her verse than Lourdes does on hers. Like this is in theory the girl so confusing of the album, but it is not nearly as revealing as that song. And that's the other interesting thing about this album is that like Madonna is obviously the most influential to the modern female pop star. But on this album I can see that she's sort of noticed things about other artists, artists that are working. Whether it's Girl so confusing. I think that in the marketing of this album she also sort of noticed what Charlie did for Brat. I think she obviously noticed what Beyonce did on the Renaissance album. Madonna was on one of the Break My Soul remixes on that record. And I could see Madonna like looking at that and being like, wait, like she's singing about voguing in ballroom culture. Like, bitch, I was there. Maybe I should be writing songs like this.

[B]

Also, like I was saying, saying earlier, you know, there's sort of every era of Madonna reference on this album and she does have a sub genre of these like spoken word, sing, songy poem songs. Like I, I went back and I listened to the last two songs on Ray of Light, which are Littlestar and Marigirl, which are inspired by Lourdes. And it's very similar to the Test.

[A]

Well, we get lyrical callbacks to Little Star in the Test. More than one, which is called cute.

[B]

Although you know, I am wondering who is the they that kept putting them to the test? Is it a person, Society, the media, all of the above?

[A]

I think it's Society is how I interpreted that song because it really seems to be a song about identity and privacy and the inherent trauma of growing up in the shadow of someone like Madonna.

[B]

Yeah. Being raised in the shadow of such a big personality and trying to, to have your own identity within that and hopefully outside of that.

[A]

Totally. There's a lyric in this song where she says my butterfly was always being watched. And it made me think of all of those hundreds of paparazzi photos that I saw of her when she was a child, you know, from birth, basically. Yeah. I imagine that being Madonna's daughter is. Actually has a lot of pitfalls beyond the obvious perks of having a parent like that, you know, know.

[B]

Oh. I think that the things that suck about being Madonna's daughter far outweigh the. The perks. Like, can you imagine because Lourdes has such a distinct look and because if you're a Madonna fan, we have such a parasocial relationship with Lourdes because we've seen paparazzi photos of her since she was an infant, which is up in and of itself. But, I mean, how many times a day or how many times in her life people have gone up to her to start a conversation, to be like, do you know how much your mother means to me? Which is lovely.

[A]

But no, that would make you feel insane, for sure. And none of this is to say that Madonna isn't an excellent parent. I'm sure she is. But, like, the circumstances around her are so extreme and something that I don't think a lot of people have experienced in the way that someone like Lourdes has.

[B]

So, beyond the songs we've already talked about and, of course, singles like Dance a Teria, what are other songs that you really like from the album?

[A]

I like Dance a tier a lot. Lot. That's another one of the songs that has a lot of Madonna lore. It is about the club of the same name in the early 80s. And this really is her version of Walk on the Wild side in the sense that it chronicles a scene and it name drops a bunch of people in that scene. There's also a interpolation of the part of Walk on the Wild side in that song. Song.

[B]

And it's really brought Debbie Mazur to a new level of prominence that, of course, she's a list in our hearts, but it feels like within this, she is having a moment again.

[A]

Well, she's always been a list to Madonna fans, and she's been in so many Madonna music videos over the years. Like, truly in every era of Madonna, it was really special to see her in the music video and to see her get this name drop. And it's cool, but it's wild to think that. That, you know, when Madonna moved to New York, it was the late 70s. It was like the tail end of Lou Reed's New York, you know, in a lot of ways. But I feel like the song where she gets really like Lou Reed, Nico Vibes is Les Girl.

[B]

Yes. Which I always associated her as an East Village girl that was the big

[A]

revelation for me, I think she got around. She got around downtown. That almost. Almost brought me to tears listening to it, because it is like a song about her history, a song about the passage of time. I interpreted it as a song about sort of like, nostalgia for a version of New York that doesn't exist anymore and all of the people and places that are associated with that. Also, I feel like I relate to it in a way just because, like, I first moved to the Lower east side when I first moved to New York when I was in my late teens, you know?

[B]

You know, you were like, me too, Madonna. Me too.

[A]

Me too.

[B]

2003 was a crazy time.

[A]

Hey, at least you could still smoke in bars then.

[B]

The songs that I keep coming back to, like, when I've been driving in my car or walking, hiking, are songs like good for the soul, Love Without Words, School, like, the fun dance stuff.

[A]

School is really good. I love Love Without Words also.

[B]

I'm surprised School wasn't one of the singles. I mean, it could be. Be.

[A]

It should be. It really should be. It's really, really good. I also like One Step Away a lot, which comes sort of at the beginning of the album.

[B]

So where do we think this album sits within her discography?

[A]

Definitely better than Hard Candy, M.D. n.A. What's the other one? Madame X and Rebel Hard. I would say on par with Confessions and Music.

[B]

I was gonna say it goes up within the top five Madonna albums. And I think where your top five Madonna albums sit, that's a very personal choice. I do think when just society looks back at Madonna's career, Ray of Light will probably be thought of as her best album, just in terms of, like, what it meant for her career and how she was perceived. Like, that was such a seismic shift that I remember where it's like, oh, my God, Madonna has changed. And then the next album was music, and I was like, oh, no, she hasn't changed.

[A]

See, I think that Like A Prayer and True Blue are the most important albums. I feel like Ray of Light exists in relation to her early albums. And I feel like with Confessions, too, I don't think it's better than Madonna. Like a Virgin. Like True Blue. Like A Prayer.

[B]

Okay, so you.

[A]

Bedtime Stories, Erotica.

[B]

Is it, like, six or seven?

[A]

No, I don't think it's better than those albums, but I think it's in the world of. Of music and Confessions, which I think those are great albums. I also think American Life is a good album. It just had a very bad lead

[B]

single, which I feel like has been reappraised now. I mean, a ultimate Iraq War Bush one banger.

[A]

But that was like Bush era psychosis that created that, you know.

[B]

Yeah. That's when people were buying and then smashing. What was then known as the Dixie Chicks are now just the chicks also at Taylor Swift's wedding. Yes, all three of them. All three chicks.

[A]

Chicks. So yes, this isn't entering into top five Madonna for me, but that is like an impossible thing.

[B]

That's interesting. I guess I'm looking at it less from what I personally like and more appraising it as what it means for her career. Like clearly Confessions to it tells more of a story of like Madonna at 68.

[A]

It represents a significant shift for sure.

[B]

Well, yeah, that a 68 year old woman can come back into pride prominence.

[A]

Totally. It is a very important album within her discography. Absolutely. But I just think that her discography is so unbelievably good, like records that still. I don't know if anyone is really topped, but that's just me. But it's crazy that like, I think for a lot of millennials that are like the youngest, youngest millennials, Confessions on the Dance Floor, like the original one is the only album that they were really aware of where they saw Madonna doing something like as it was happening, happening. Like obviously these people are familiar with Like a Prayer and Express Yourself in like the big hugely famous Madonna singles that have had a very long shelf life. But it's really cool now to see younger people get into her because they really haven't had like an intuitive entry point.

[B]

And I will say that I probably put Ray of Light as Madonna's best album just because it's probably the first album that I remember the premier press and the talk around it. Obviously I had seen Madonna music videos. We all know I had the Dick Tracy cassette as a child that I played over and over again.

[A]

So do you think it's better than that? Because I would argue yes.

[B]

Oh, absolutely. I mean, the funny thing about the Dick Tracy soundtrack or the special album that Madonna put out is like, that is actually where the song Vogue, arguably her most popular song, comes from.

[A]

But it's also where I'm Going Bananas comes from.

[B]

Okay, but there's also Hanky Panky, which I don't think we ever discussed this on the podcast, but when you took me to Palm Springs, you took me to the drag bar Toucans and there was a drag performer that exclusively performed songs from Madonna's Dick Tracy album, including Hanky Panky and I Lost My mind.

[A]

No one else knew the song. Not one person in the entire bar, except for us, because it was mostly like bachelorette parties. Like, that sort of vibe was familiar with the songs of Dick Tracy. So I was glad that we were there so it wasn't just, like, wasted on literally everyone.

[B]

Oh, yeah. And we made direct eye contact. We were like, we know what you're doing. We're picking up what you're putting down. And we love it.

[A]

Yeah, no, that was really cool.

[B]

Well, I guess the big question now, now that Confessions 2 is out, do we know if Madonna is going to tour this album?

[A]

I don't know. I honestly thought that the. The Celebration tour was her goodbye tour. It would surprise me if she did another world tour on that scale. I can see her doing maybe a smaller tour. Like, she's just doing la, New York, Paris, something like that. I hope she tours. I'd love to see her again.

[B]

Chelsea, you haven't said what it very well could be, which I is a residency in the Sphere.

[A]

Oh, that would be the dream. I hope so.

[B]

I am glad we didn't waste our money on the no Doubt Sphere experience. It seems that no Doubt is the only musical act that doesn't understand the capacity of the Sphere.

[A]

Well, the visuals that they did just looked cheesy. Like, they're an incredible band. They have so many incredible songs. But, like, we don't need to be watching AI videos of them. Them performing when they're right there.

[B]

Correct. You need to add to the visuals. I don't need to see weird animated versions of you recreating the Spiderwebs video.

[A]

Well, I think the Sphere would be incredible for Confessions too.

[B]

And that way, Madonna doesn't need to dance too much because as we've learned, she has no cartilage in her knees anymore.

[A]

Yeah, totally. Let the visuals do the talking.

[B]

Okay, let's quickly get into couture.

[A]

Couture is happening. It's still happening. On the whole, I did not love this season. It did not inspire a level of fanaticism in me that I usually associate with the couture shows. I feel like some designers tried way too hard and others didn't try enough. But maybe I'm just being a bitch.

[B]

I mean, that is what the people tune in for, I think. I think we are in a weird place with couture where you have of younger designers or, you know, someone like a Daniel Roseberry who has done this for a while, but kind of butting up against what couture means. You know, the idea of Working with the couture houses and, you know, the ways of fabricating couture garments with kind of pushing the boundaries of the materials you can use.

[A]

Yeah. There's also this weird tension with it where it's kind of like. Like, is the point of the show marketing for the brand as a whole, or is it, like, actually selling clothes to, like, the richest women in the world? And there's people that have chosen marketing, and there's people that have chosen practicality.

[B]

Well, there's a Third Avenue, which is, are we designing things for Law Roach to put on a private plane for Zendaya to wear? The same day it debuted on a red carpet, which was the case for the final Schiaparelli look, which debuted in Paris in the morning and was flown to London for Zendaya to wear to the Odyssey premiere that evening.

[A]

And why not?

[B]

The most interesting thing about the Schiaparelli show that no one clocked. And by no one, I mean Cathy Horne, in her review, didn't mention it. I didn't see a reference to it in Vogue Runway was the horror references. Like, am I wrong? Was that Ghostface in one of the dresses?

[A]

Wait, what?

[B]

Didn't you see the. Like, there was a dress that had a sort of Ghostface shape to it.

[A]

Okay, I need to look at that collection again, because I totally missed that.

[B]

There was also a black silicone jacket with these tentacles that was giving xenomorph.

[A]

I was trying to figure out, like, what does that remind me of? It reminds me of something incredibly specific, but I cannot put my finger on what it is.

[B]

It also reminded me of a black version of. Remember the opera singer in the Fifth Element who has her hair, those, like, tentacles? Yeah, it also reminded me of that. So Daniel Roseberry did work with this atelier outside of Paris that makes photorealistic infants and babies for cinema, and he used their expertise with silicone to make these jackets and pieces that resembled human skin. Skin, which I did think was the most interesting part of the collection.

[A]

It's very Cronenberg. Although, I don't know. I can't think of a single woman who would want to walk around with, like, a silicone vagina affixed to their midriff. Aside from maybe, like, peaches or Bjork possibly. You know, it's very like, Seize Judy, Chicago's dinner party once kind of vibes.

[B]

I feel like the strongest pieces were the ones that leaned away from gimmicks. So, like, the first.

[A]

The first look.

[B]

Yeah, the first few pieces, which Cathy Horn in her Review said that Daniel Roseberry called an Azzedine kind of thing, referring to Azzedine Alaia.

[A]

Yeah, I think the first look was the best look.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, the pieces that were silicone and also had the LED lights in them, I'm like, what are we doing?

[A]

Yeah. To me, it's just, like, a little too gimmicky for me personally, and a lot of it does veer into, like, high concept drag race territory for me. But I don't know, I think I'm just a little bored with Schiaparelli. I've had such, like, drastically different reactions to different collections, which is unusual, I think. Either I like a brand or I don't like a brand. He gets me sometimes. Like, he really does. And he is, like, very good at what he does. You know, he's very good at this just extremely body conscious look. He's very good at creating a fantasy. It's very technically impressive, but I think

[B]

he is at a crossroads where he has developed this signature that I think it is time to pivot. And like we said, that first look, which is his interpretation, evidently, of an Azzedine Alaia Dream Drez is the strongest piece totally.

[A]

But it is impressive that he's cultivated such a recognizable look, you know, considering he's just like some random, like, American guy. Like, that's cool that he did that. I think an element of my Schiaparelli fatigue probably has to do with, like, I don't know, like, the Internet. People with the worst taste, like, are so obsessed with it. Like, it's like what they think fashion should be be.

[B]

Well, I think you said it very correctly, where it's like the looks that get into a Drag Race challenge, which I feel like brings us to Robert One's collection.

[A]

Yes. That is like, if the Drag Race challenge was Alexander McQueen, which, honestly, they should do as a challenge.

[B]

Yeah. When I saw that first look, which was a beaded paint splatter gown with. With a pointed clown hat and a bunny, both also having beaded paint splatter on them, I was like, oh, we're in trouble.

[A]

Well, it's kind of like couture that exists only for pop stars, you know, to wear in performances and, like, on the red carpet and stuff.

[B]

But what was surprising about this collection, like, his work has always led with the theatrical. It's always flirted with the gimmicky, although I think, think because he's always had this spooky gothic tilt, it's kept it away from being too gimmicky. What I would never say about any of his collections is that they're usually not all over the place. And this collection was all over the place.

[A]

Yeah. I don't know. I admittedly, I haven't been paying the closest of attention to this man. Like, it comes on my radar here and there, but I don't know. To me, me, like, this makes Daniel Roseberry look like a restrained designer looking at a collection like this. And when I saw the last couple of looks that like, had like all these giant balloons, I was like, this is like a bad central Saint Martin's thesis collection, you know? Ooh, no shade to the central Saint Martin's girlies out there.

[B]

No, we love y', all.

[A]

But, like, you know what I mean. They especially know what I mean.

[B]

Absolutely. They've seen it with their own eyes. Eyes.

[A]

It's like a fake fashion show in a movie.

[B]

I was gonna say it's like something you would have seen in the Devil wears Prada too.

[A]

Totally. They should have had him do costumes for that.

[B]

Okay, I feel like we've been talking a little too much about couture. Can we talk about a collection that completely took us by surprise and we totally love which is Standing Ground's first couture collection.

[A]

I know literally nothing about this label, but I thought it was gold. Good.

[B]

So this is the label of Irish designer named Michael Stewart. He's a graduate of the Limerick School of Art and Design. He graduated with an master's degree from the Royal College of Art in London. And in 2024, he won the LVMH Prize. It seems like he used the funds from that prize to mount this collection. He told Womenswear Daily. Can you imagine what I could do with a budget?

[A]

I'm sure it would be great. Great. Because he's doing like, there's elements of it that are obviously reminiscent of like very classical couture, like Charles James, Christian Dior type. But he is also coming at it with a bit of a sort of Aliyah Mugler. Like, there's elements of this that even remind me of like late 90s, like Atelier Versace. Like that one picture of Carolyn Bassette. How am I talking about her so much on this episode? But like, that one picture of Carolyn Bassette wearing like a woman, white, long sleeved Versace, like, tight outfit. Like, that's who these clothes are for. That type of woman.

[B]

Yeah. I mean, there is an austere femininity about it that I really, really dig. That is helped by Mr. Pearl, who did the corset work for this collection and in learning more about Michael Stewart and his work with Standing Ground, his signature is seeding beadwork in either visible or hidden channels on. On dresses and coats.

[A]

The beadwork was gorgeous and, you know, not too much. Like, this is for people that want a body conscious look, but also aren't going to go full Schiaparelli with it.

[B]

I think he is one to watch. Delphine Arnault is the one that spearheads the LVMH prize. I can imagine she has her eye on him for future vacancies at lvmh. Right now, every brand is pretty well appointed. However, when I looked at this collection, I could see him at Givenchy, I could see him at Fendi. I don't love saying that because there are currently two female designers installed at those houses, but.

[A]

Or let him do his own thing if he can figure it out. I know it's hard out there, which I think is maybe a good transition to get into Olivier Taskin's new label. It's not really his label. He's been hired at this Belgian label called Boloria and he. He presented his first couture collection for them, which was very cool.

[B]

And he is someone that. I've been wondering where he has been for honestly the last 15 years.

[A]

Well, he's been around like, he's. He's had like a very fraught existence in the fashion industry because he came up with his own label. Then he got the Rocha job. Then something happened with his label. He revived it at some point, point in the 2000 and tens. But, like, I don't think it fully caught on or they didn't figure out the money aspect of it or something. Like he pops up intermittently.

[B]

He had that Theory collection for a while or he was like the creative director of Theory.

[A]

Yeah, he's definitely done a lot of stuff, but, like, he's never, like, figured it out in terms of, like, just like a consistent gig, which is really unfortunate because he's so talented and I feel like this collection reminds us how good he is. It started with these massive black taffeta gowns, which is, you know, a continuation of his lifelong preoccupation with Victorian mourning attire and Gothic clothing and things of that nature. Hopefully Madonna will find her way back into one of his designs.

[B]

I was gonna point out she wore a lot of his pieces during the Ray of Light era when she dyed her hair dark brown.

[A]

She also wore him when she was still blonde. She wore one of his gowns to the Oscars. And I Think that was like, the first big thing. And then she dyed her hair black, and he became very associated with that era of Madonna, and she really did put him on the map.

[B]

I'm sure knowing how old we were during that period of time, that was probably how we got introduced to him as a design designer.

[A]

Totally. But also, I feel like just as someone that was like, pretty much only experiencing high fashion through either, like, celebrity or magazines, like, the magazine editors were obsessed with him. Like, those clothes were so dramatic and so perfect for photo shoots that I feel like he got a lot of play in that respect as well. Although maybe never figured out how to sell something to. To, like, the average.

[B]

I mean, I think that's what the theory collection was attempting to do. And also giving him a nice paycheck, I'm sure. But I'm excited to see him back. I know this is beside the point, but for a man who has been on the scene and designing, he was a bit of a, like, wunderkin designer. But since the late 90s, he looks ageless. Did you see him doing his designer walk?

[A]

No. It's giving the substance. Like, he looks looked 12 when he was first famous. He still looks 12. It's crazy. Well, it's kind of like Alexander Wang also really hasn't aged that much. Like, something's going on, you know, like, they both still look like children somehow. But also, I loved the gown with the school of fish on it. Like, I feel like that was, like, kind of beating Scaparelli at their own game. But I'm sure some celeb will be photographed at that at some point.

[B]

It's always exciting to have a new voice on the scene, especially if they're an old voice you haven't seen in a really long time.

[A]

Totally.

[B]

So I feel like the two shows that have gotten the most kind of chatter would be Jonathan Anderson's first Dior couture collection, and of course, his design, Wario Matthew Blasey at Chanel.

[A]

Okay, I must have a really fucked up sense of time because, like, how is this already the second couture collection? Collection?

[B]

Is it the second or the first?

[A]

It's the second.

[B]

Damn.

[A]

It's Michieu's second.

[B]

Also, I find people's feelings about Jonathan Anderson's Dior so funny, because I saw so many people online being like, you know, with this couture collection, Jonathan Anderson's Dior is finally growing on me. It's like, you know who loved this collection? Anna Wintour. Did you see the video of her, like, hooting and clapping at the end of it.

[A]

Well, this is. Is like all that she would wear, you know, apart from some of the cocktail dresses and stuff. Like, this is, like, stuff that is designed, like, actually for the client, you know, and not purely for marketing. But it's just, like, crazy to me that this man is collaborating with Taylor Swift and Linda Benglis, like, within the span of the same week. Like, how did this man even find himself in this position? Like, it's actually insane sane.

[B]

Oh, if anyone exists in multitudes, it's Jonathan Anderson. And it's funny because even before I knew he collaborated with Linda Benglis, who splits her time in New Mexico, I was looking through this collection. I was like, wow, this collection has a real Santa Fe vibe to it.

[A]

She splits her time between New Mexico and where else? Oh, I'm like, where's the other place? She is an extremely cool, cool sculptor. And, like, her most famous pieces, like, she basically poured, like, colored latex and foam on the floor to create these, like, insane looking blobs. Like, it is the kind of sculpture that, like, tourists make fun of when they go to modern art museums, you know, when they're just like, I could do that.

[B]

She splits her time between New York and Santa Fe, New Mexico, where she has a studio. But while this collection has a lot of things Anna Wintour would wear, it also has, like, a lot of wrap coats with fringe and like, tying a shawl off your shoulders, which is giving Santa Fe.

[A]

Yeah. I think the standout piece from the show was one of the collaborative pieces with her, which was that silver knotted dress.

[B]

Right. So he based many of the pieces on series of art that she has done.

[A]

He actually kind of made it more mass, though, and like, more classically beautiful. Because she's one of those people that I think of, like, her art is very like. I think a lot of people would find it abrasive in a way. You know, she's kind of like the Kim Gordon of sculpture.

[B]

Yeah. A lot of her work as described involves taking two dimensional materials like latex, metal, wax, mesh, and she transforms it through knotting, pleating, and molding into three dimensional objects. It's interesting that across a lot of these designers, like, there's an interesting interest in materiality that isn't cloth. You know, we've got silicone. We're being inspired by artists who take materials and transform them into something else. I think the least interesting piece of work is just like a direct rip of her peacock series, which is a fan that looks like a peacock and then there's a fan that resembles a peacock just affixed to a dress.

[A]

Yeah. But I can actually see someone buying that. That, though.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, that's doing, like, client service in a way.

[B]

And I think people have gotten confused as to, well, one what and who fashion shows are meant for. And especially couture. I mean, couture, yes, in a way, to the masses who can't possibly afford $200,000 dresses or suits or what have you, it is to inspire and be a feast for the eye. Oftentimes with. When Galliano was at Dior, and I would think about this with Jean Paul Gaultier, like, the couture collections were kind of influence ready to wear. Like, there would be a conversation between the two. But I feel like people have been so tricked by couture being a gimmick that they look at Jonathan Anderson's Dior and the Chanel collections, and they're like, that's kind of boring.

[A]

Well, it's not as engineered for Instagram as the Robert one and the Schiaparelli and that sort of thing. It's wild because I like what he's doing at Dior a lot. But there is this very strange friction because Jonathan Anderson is a weirdo, and I mean that in a very complimentary sense. But he's also, like, now carrying on the legacy of, like, the most classical designer ever, basically, and having to sort of serve all of these different people. People. Like, in theory, he shouldn't be designing Taylor's dress, not because he's not talented, but because, like we said, we would think that Ralph Lauren, someone like that would have that gig. But, like, yet here he is doing both, doing all of it.

[B]

And somehow, when it comes to Matou Blasi's Chanel, he's feels this certain level of freedom in looking to Coco Chanel more than Karl Lagerfeld. Well, like, if there's a through line through his collections, it's like, what would Coco do?

[A]

Yeah. Which I feel like is the correct way to think about things, especially coming in right after Carl. Maybe down the line, he'll feel more of a freedom to dive into Carl and all that sort of stuff. But this show, to me, a lot of it was beautiful, but it wasn't my favorite thing he's ever done done. And I do think that a lot of that has to do with the fact that these clothes are not Instagram clothes. They are very detailed. They're meant to be looked at up close. They're not meant to be clocked from, like, a Thousand feet away.

[B]

Well. And he even said to Vogue Runway that Chanel Couture is not about the big wow. He added that the show had nothing to do with red carpet dressing. We love to do that too, of course, but during the process, I cut everything that was too opulent, and we really focused on the clothes. I was inspired by life of women every day.

[A]

See, I could deal with a little more fantasy. Not to say that I want it to be all Schiaparelli vibes, but, like, just here and there. I did love that the bridal look came in the middle, which felt very intentional. Like it's an insane tradition to upend.

[B]

Yes. The bridal look, which is typically the last look at a couture show, was the 50th look out of 63, not

[A]

to mention, like, on the most androgynous looking model that exists.

[B]

And the last three looks of the couture collection, I would say, were maybe some of the most conservative looks. Like, the last look was a off shoulder black dress with almost fringe detailing. The look before that was an ornate coat. The look before that was was just a classic Chanel skirt suit, but black with some fringe detailing. So very intentional not to be ostentatious.

[A]

It's also wild that, like, I read in the Vogue Runway review that elements of the set were inspired by the film Jumanji, like the Robin Williams film. It's so bizarre having millennial designers work for these houses because the references used to be so much more highbrow, and now it's literally Jumanji.

[B]

Yes. Specifically the scenes of the invasion of the toxic flowers is what he was inspired by, as well as Jack and the Beanstalk.

[A]

And there were some cool, like, novelty heels that referenced. That referenced fairy tales. Lots of bean motifs throughout, which I thought were quite cute.

[B]

Cute.

[A]

But again, I think this is the sort of thing that has to be looked at up close to really be appreciated. Or at the very least, like, you have to watch the video of the show.

[B]

I think something that we do not need to see up close to get a feeling for would be Pierre Paulo's Balenciaga Couture collection, which I would call a real mixed bag. I saw videos that showed the worst looks and were like, Balenciaga Couture is. This is awful. And then I saw videos that showed the best looks and were like, we're saved. Balenciaga Couture is back to where it should be.

[A]

So, well, all the people that were like, demna haters, that were like crystal ball Balenciaga would be Rolling over in his grave. Like, this show was for those people. So I hope that they appreciated this show.

[B]

I don't know. There were also looks that I'll call like business casual couture. Like there was that one look that was a drop waist blazer and then like a voluminous skirt. It just, it was a mat. This.

[A]

See, to me, gowns, couture like this has always been the strength of this designer. This is why I think he got this job was because they know he can do these kinds of couture shows and they know that he excels at making these very traditional mid century looking gowns. So I think that, like a lot of the gowns were really, really beautiful and certainly good investments. Like the most sort of classical couture pieces that you could buy. But also I was expecting him to

[B]

do something a little different than his output at Valentino.

[A]

Yes. Like this show could have literally been from 10 years ago and like we wouldn't have noticed.

[B]

Correct.

[A]

But I mean, like the same color combinations, this sort of same shtick. Like, I was hoping that he would sort of do something different.

[B]

Although we have discussed our love and have defended Alessandro Michelli for essentially doing the same thing at Valentino. Like, for sure, there are designers who do have their own outputs and point of view and they bring that to each fashion house. It is funny to think that Balenciaga brought Pierre Paolo in and they're like, because we need to grow our couture department.

[A]

Although I will say Alessandro like, references so many different things, like in the span of a single collection. Whereas I think Pier Paulo's clothes are more, more consistently similar, Similar references every time, which is fine. Again, I think that a lot of these clothes are beautiful, but I, I was expecting a little more from him. I definitely did not like the couture version of the motorcycle bag. Like, that was just ugly by any standard. And the fact that it was probably, I mean, God knows how much, $57,000. I was about to say $500,000, probably more.

[B]

What do you get for the person who has everything, including attending Taylor Swift's Madison Square garden wedding? A $500,000 couture purse. Honestly, that is probably where things are going when you need to invent new things to buy. Couture purse. I don't think that's been thought of before. I mean, obviously there are purses and handbags featured in couture collections, but.

[A]

Well, we saw Matu do the couture version, the transparent version of the 255 bag in the Previous Chanel couture show. And like, that was major. That wasn't ugly. It was functionless and intentionally so. But this, I'm just like, this is just looks gross. Like, don't even try and do this sort of stuff again. I think his strength is. Is making these really beautiful classical gowns. And he's very good at it and good for him. But I do think something has been lost for the brand.

[B]

Oh, yeah. If you thought Demna's interpretation of Balenciaga was making it have an identity crisis, this is even worse because Pierre Paulo is sort of stuck in between Cristobal and Demna.

[A]

I really think that Pier Paulo should, like, only do stuff like this and not ever do normal clothes. So good for him. He's very talented, but I think an overall downgrade, sadly.

[B]

Speaking of people who should never do normal clothes, should we finish off this episode? Speaking of, about the Jean Paul Gaultier couture collection.

[A]

Sure. This was Dreadlantink's first couture show. It was deeply weird. Again, people always talked about Demna trolling people, but I think he may actually be trolling because, like, these are clothes for, like, straight up freaks, you know, These are clothes that are like, satirizing fashion in the most extreme way. It's wild because I was looking through the show and some of the looks I was obsessed with and other looks I was repulsed by by, which makes me think that he's doing something right.

[B]

Yeah. We've talked a lot about designers who have leaned into gimmick, but there did feel something fun or at least funny. I think you're correct satirical about these dresses that had kind of tubular.

[A]

Yeah, it was like a gown spilling out of a tube is what half of these dresses looked like.

[B]

These gowns shooting out the front and back of mops. Yeah, those pieces were funny. There were other pieces that were genuinely beautiful avant garde gowns and suits. And then there were some pieces where it was just like, come on, what are we doing?

[A]

Yeah. There was some stuff that I can see actual, like, couture collectors buying and wearing. Certainly not everything, but there were pieces in there that were wearable by eccentric billionaires. I liked the hair bows a lot. I think more than anything, it's a good collection for fashion editors to photograph actors, models in because the shapes are so extreme. It's such. It's so dramatic.

[B]

I think that his output for Gaultier is going to get better and better. I know it. It started quite rocky, but there was something that tickled me about this collection.

[A]

Yeah. Again, there's something that makes me feel uncomfortable, but in a good way or something that makes me feel genuinely challenged by these clothes for whatever reason. I really can't put my finger on it, but there's, like, something unsettling about a lot of these clothes. Maybe it is just the basic sort of body modification thing. Maybe it is just kind of scary to see people look like this.

[B]

I think it's good to be scared.

[A]

But also there was stuff like the. The hair bows that had these very, very long sort of trains. Those are classically gorgeous. I can see, like, Elle Fanning wearing that on the red carpet or something and having it look totally normal and not freakish at all.

[B]

For sure. I'm looking at the collection. The more I see these. Yeah, These pieces that almost look like you're throwing a poofy ball gown into a shredder or something. And it's coming out the other end.

[A]

It looks like a cartoon. Yeah.

[B]

You know, it's very fun. I will say I was just looking down at my phone to make sure that Taylor Swift has not dropped an official wedding photo. And thus far, no, she must be saving it for the documentary.

[A]

Well, I hope that actually happens because it will give us even more content. God bless. But there are more couture shows to come. I just saw that Sarah Jessica Parker arrived at the Fendi show, although I haven't actually seen seen the Fendi show. And also, I guess Valentino is coming down the pipeline shortly.

[B]

I would say that we would be back next week to discuss it, but I believe we will be doing our monthly Sex and the City re watch episode.

[A]

That we will.

[B]

All right, guys, we will see you next week.

[A]

Thank you, as always, for listening.

[B]

All right, bye, guys.

[A]

Bye.