← Everyday VOpreneur® with Marc Scott
Everyday VOpreneur® with Marc Scott
Accountability, Confidence, and Doing the Hard Thing Anyway with Billie Jo Konze
01:03:24
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Transcript155 lines
- [00:00]
A
Yes. Go into the Olympics and he'll call
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B
you on your bs.
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A
I pulled Mark Scott's head out of his butt.
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B
Most people need outside accountability or they won't succeed.
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A
We are so good at coming up with so many excuses.
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B
I suck at this. Why bother?
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A
Sometimes you gotta do the hard thing just to prove to yourself that you can do the hard thing.
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B
We get into this thinking, I'm gonna go be my own boss.
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A
Why do we do that? The Everyday Veopreneur podcast is. And for that reason, I want to make sure that I have the guests on the show that you want to hear from. So let me ask you a question. Who would you like to hear from? Head to veopreneur.com podcast pitch and let me know if there's a particular guest, a particular topic, or an idea that you have for the Everyday Veopreneur podcast. The website again. Veopreneur.com podcast pitch. Billy Joe Cones.
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B
Hi, Mark Scott.
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A
Tell me about bowling.
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B
Bowling?
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A
I read that you like bowling.
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B
I do. I love bowling.
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A
Are you a 300 bowler?
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B
No, not, not.
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A
Have you ever. What's the closest you've ever come?
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B
175 maybe?
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A
Oh my gosh, I don't know.
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B
No, I mean, like, I'm usually like, the first round I'm like doing pretty poorly. Then like by the second round you're warmed up and then by about round four, you're like losing steam, you know?
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A
So by the first round I pretty much suck. By the second round I suck worse and wonder why I continue to do this to myself. By the third round, I'm getting beat by my five year old.
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B
I mean, I was always hanging out with my guy friends doing it, and we used to go, like, not every week, but we used to go a lot. And by the second round, usually they were sucking and I was like in the lead by the second or third round.
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A
So, yeah, we. I live in a small town in a relatively rural part of Ontario, and literally the only thing to do for entertainment is there's a. There's a bowling alley in the next town over. And so every once in a while we would go and I mean, my kids think it's great. I'm. I. It's like the one thing that I just seem to progressively get worse at the more that I try. But, you know, it's still kind of fun. But every once in a while, if I break 100, I'm like, yes, go. Going to the Olympics.
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B
Like, have you ever encountered the candlestick bowling?
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A
Candlestick bowling? No. What is Candlestick bowling.
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B
Okay. So we don't have it here in the Midwest because I live in Minnesota, but I went to Vermont once to do a theater show and encountered it there. And I was like, what is this? Cause they're like, we don't have any regular lanes open. We have candlestick bowling. And my cousin and I were like, okay, sure, we'll do whatever. It's like a tiny little ball about this big.
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A
Okay.
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B
And the pins are straight up and down, so you have like, there's a lot of space between them, unlike the, you know, this. So the idea is you have to knock one down and then kind of spin it to knock the others down.
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A
So it. It's almost like a five pin. Right. So we. We have five pin here where you use a really small ball. Yeah, it's a regular pin, but they're just five. And so then again, they're. They're really spaced out. And so it's supposed to be like, well, the five pins easier for the kids, but at the same time it's like, okay, but now you got the kids with the tiny little ball trying to hit the five pins that are spaced out even further, which just makes it more frustrating. And so, I don't know, I. I'll stick to doing it on the Nintendo Wii because, yes, I am that old that I and still have a working Wii. And I will. We'll get going on the. On the Wii and, you know, like 100 pin bowling on fun on the
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B
Wii when you can throw it backwards and everybody jumps and screams.
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A
I could do that. I have that skill set. So I recently had Paul Cartwright on the show, and I joked with him that he was my first quintuple threat. So he's actor, singer, voice actor, impressionist, and filmmaker. But as I was reading about you and doing some research for this, I realized that you might be my second ever quintuple threat. Because you've got your stage and theater actor, voice actor, podcaster, singer. You do coaching as well.
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B
Yeah.
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A
Obviously you're a bowler.
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B
Yes.
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A
So you're doing all of the things as well. So how does all of that stage, theater, voice acting, singing, how do they all play together? What are the common threads between them that work really well for you regardless of which venue you're in?
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B
Oh, gosh. I mean, I guess just not getting bored. I'm like, I'm like a highly. I'm a person who's like a highly novel person. You know, I need novelty. So coming out of high school, I was like, I'm never having a day job. I don't want a day job. I want to be an actor.
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A
Okay.
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B
And I mostly didn't, except I worked in advertising as a receptionist for about four years and. And I was a server for a million years. Like literally a million years. But the thing about that is it's never the same day when you're a server. It's always different. And in advertising, it's kind of always different too. But that's like the most normal job that I've had. I've had a lot of weird jobs, to be honest. And yeah. So they all kind of play together to be like, how can I express my inner world creatively? And also, I mean, I think so to be clear, I'm not a performance coach. Like, I probably could be at this point because I have so much acting background. But I. It's not really what I mostly like to do. What I mostly like to do is I like to help people believe that things are possible for them.
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A
Nice.
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B
And that's something I've always admired. When I listened to your stuff back when I started the idea that we make so many excuses for ourselves about what we're capable of and we get really down on ourselves and we are like, so much of the self esteem stuff comes from us telling ourselves, I can't do this. Maybe I'm just not good enough. And it's like. But then you have to prove to yourself that you are by taking the baby steps that will get you there. Right.
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A
It is so funny. I'm smiling because this morning I had a conversation with Brad Hyland and I did some coaching with Brad earlier this year working on commercial was getting ready for a JMC commercial demo. And the reason why I reached out to Brad was because my agent had reached out to me this morning to tell me that I had booked another campaign. And so when I do this record in a month here, I'll have three campaigns running across Canada simultaneously, which is like unheard of for me. And so I reached out to Brad and I was like, man, you are a freaking miracle worker. Like, after having coached with him. And he's like, well, what is it that you think that I did that helped you the most? And I said, you helped me pull my head out of my butt.
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B
Yeah.
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A
And I said honestly, I said, I have spent so many years convincing myself that I wasn't a commercial voice actor because I was doing all of these other things and doing different genres and all of that sort of stuff. And I said honestly, that was my Biggest hurdle was just this narrative that I had created. And it wasn't even an intentional thing. Like, I wasn't trying to talk myself out of it necessarily. I just didn't do a lot of it. You know, I didn't necessarily feel like I was great at it, but I was just focused on all these other genres, and I just needed somebody to slap me across the face like I do for everybody else. But you're too close to your own stuff, right? So you can't see it for yourself. And so I just needed somebody to do that for me. And so I literally. I was like. And I was like, you know, there's your testimonial. Like, I pulled Mark Scott's head out of his butt so that he could start booking commercial. But you're right. I mean, we need those people. We need those types of coaches. You know, performance obviously so important. Figure out the business, figure out the marketing, all of that sort of stuff. But, man, sometimes we just need that coach that helps us get our head right and get our narratives straightened out and help us just get out of our own way. You know, I'm not. I don't think I'm doing anything significantly different from what I've done before as far as auditioning, other than just believing that I can actually book it now as opposed to before. I was like, I'm not a commercial voice actor. What a stupid thing to say, right?
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B
No, I mean, like, the times in my life when I have booked the most is when I was already booking things. And I don't believe that there's anything truly different that's going on. Except I believe. And this is why I think, like, the AI thing is not that much. I mean, it's a threat, but it's not a threat to true communication only because they don't have an intention, and we have an intention, and our intention comes through. You know, in all the scientific studies they do of, like, people's facial expressions and micro expressions, we communicate so much with this, and tiny little things get our point across, or tiny little things indicate how confident we feel in a moment. Right. Or if we're having doubts or any of that stuff. And so the more you can be a real actor and really emotionally connect to things, which is why people are always saying conversational. Conversational. Right. It's just emotional connection. Like, that's how you do that. And if you're confident, then you're confident.
- [09:53]
A
Billie Jo and I are talking accountability in this episode. Things that we talk about is the marketing challenge that I was running on Veopreneur.com and how that was accountability for me to make sure that I did the thing and what's the thing that I need to do? I've got a brand new commercial demo and I want to hit the ground running. When I have that demo in my hands, I want to be able to market that demo to a whole lot of people. Now, if you need help with your voiceover marketing, I can promise you there is a resource@veopreneur.com that is going to be able to help you with that. Whether you need an overall marketing program like voiceover Marketing Playbook, whether you're looking for something specific like how to market on social media and you want my LinkedIn class or how to do follow up and you want my follow up academy class or how do I even create content for social media? In which case you could look at my 50 content ideas that add value guide or my content Compass course. There's something there that can help you become a more confident and effective marketer. Check it out. Veopreneur.com hit the store button. Veopreneur.com Hit the store button. Now back to our show. You know, work begets work. It's what everybody says, right? Work begets work. And I think the thought process behind that is, you know, if you're out there on stuff and other people are hearing you, then they're going to want you on their stuff and whatever. And I'm not going to say that that's not wrong, but I think part of it is like, for me, it's just the confidence that comes from. Okay, wow, I booked that one. Wow. Oh, whoa. I booked that one too. Okay, what the heck, let's go book another one. In that way, work begets work just because of the confidence that it gives you. And that's when you start to get out of your own way. Because what happens when you go through a stretch where you stop booking it immediately is like, I'm never going to book again. What am I doing wrong? Why do I suck? Like, right? The narratives just fall off a cliff in a hurry, Right? And you don't just go back in the booth and start recovering from that immediately. Right. So we need those people that help us.
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B
Yeah. And when that happens, though, what ends up happening is because the thought comes first. And the thought is, I suck at this. Why bother? I've been through this with so many friends that I have been like, no, you gotta get back out there and do it. Because the thought that says why bother? Means you're not gonna do as much work and then it's a self fulfilling prophecy because you're not doing the work.
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A
So true.
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B
And I go through it too. I go through it too. I had, you know, I've had a couple not great years where my life was like country songs the last couple years and last year was up there and I moved back across the country and you know, like, I lost a pet relationship, my dad had a health thing. All that stuff happened and it made me do less because I was overwhelmed. And we all go through that. Yep. But the second that you give into that and you allow it to take the other stuff away from you, you're giving up way more.
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A
I think it's important for people to hear that too, because I do think that there's this misconception that once you start booking, that's it. Right. You're good to go. You'll always be making money. You know, we look at these, you know, the top voice actors and think, oh my gosh, every single day they're in the studio booking big jobs and stuff like that. I think any voice actor at any level, if they're being totally honest with you, will say, I have been through ups and I have been through downs and I have, I have crested the top of the mountain and I have had my butt kicked right back down to the bottom of it and had to climb my way out of the valley all over again. And it's an important part of this to remember, but it's that, that mindset and narrative that plays such a vital role in helping you to get out of it. And I mean, that's why I say I'm not afraid to admit that I needed somebody like Brad who may have been the only person that could do it for me. Because I'll tell you, the very first thing I said to Brad when I decided I was going to coach with him. I said, brad, look, what I need from you is honesty. I said, I don't need another coach who's like, oh, you're Mark Scott. You're so great. You're, you know, nobody wants to say. It's like nobody wants to tell me the truth. And I, or I don't trust them that they're telling me the truth because they don't want to hurt my feelings or whatever. And I'm like, brad, look, if I suck, would you just please freaking tell me that I suck so that we can just get past that and, you know, fix whatever we got to fix. And so I was like, I Needed somebody that would be honest with me, but somebody who would really like. There were times when he was yelling at me and I totally deserved it because I was like, it's like, just shut up and just stop saying these stupid things and just go record. Just, you know, do what you do, what you know how to do. So it's. It's fun to hear that I'm not the only one that has. Has had those experiences and that there's somebody else out there who understands that side of things and is willing to have a conversation with a voice actor to help them see that. Sometimes it's just you getting in your own way simply by the stories that you are telling yourself.
- [14:47]
B
Oh, absolutely. And I mean, to your point about the coaches, I think it's important to find. So anyone who's just gone to the coach nights where you get feedback in front of a group and you all get to read for them. Just know people, it's not the same thing. It's never going to be the same thing because that is a taste of something and they don't want to put you off. So they're not going to be as harsh or reality checky. That's not a word. They're not going to do that to you in that setting. They might give you some critique, but they're not really going to be able to fix much in that. And so committing to a coach over the long term. I've been working with Hugh Klitsky now for almost three years, and that has changed everything.
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A
Talk about that more because I just did his open session.
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B
It was great.
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A
My God. Were you. You were there?
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B
Yeah. Oh, yeah.
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A
I was fricking beet red sweat and bullets. Like, I don't think I've ever been so nervous in my life. But Hugh is incredible. Like, yeah, wow. His ability to see things and to pull things out of you, and I don't like it's some kind of voodoo magic that he's got going on there. Like, I don't. I do not fully process how he does what he does, but I had watched him a couple of times. I think I saw him the first time at VO Atlanta, and I just sat there in the back of the room and watched and was like, dang, look at this guy go. And so then to have the opportunity, I told him straight up. When he said, I want you to do the open session, I was like, yeah, no, that scares the crap out of me. I said, I'm going to do it because I know that it would be amazing. But I just want you to know that it literally scares the crap out of me. What's it been like working with him? 3 years of working with him.
- [16:32]
B
Yeah, I met him at Wovocon in 2023 because he and I were both presenters that year. And so I met him there, and we had a weird little synchronistic connection because his best friend is somebody I know from Minneapolis from, like, a long time ago. His best friend was instrumental in me moving to Minneapolis, even though I don't actually know him. That's a weird thing. So, yeah, so we connected and we started working together. And we worked together pretty much weekly. And before that, I had, like, coached with people occasionally, like here and there. Nothing like this. And, you know, before that, a long time ago, my acting teacher sort of retired in 2016, and I had been in his class. It was a Monday afternoon class for professional actors for 10 years. I was in that class, scene study every Monday. And so great. But I didn't really put in the work in that class on a consistent basis until, like, the last year. And then I was like, why was I not doing that the whole time? Oh, my God, how far could I have gotten if I had. If I had really put in the work? And so it's the same thing with Hugh. I'm like, I am now, as of this May, ten years into voiceover, and what if I had put in that work up front? But also when you're just getting into it and you're working multiple jobs, you only have limited time, you have limited money, I totally get it. I talk to so many people who are in that boat. And so you do what you can. And honestly, it didn't hurt me much in the first couple years. It wasn't until after, when I started getting enough training to be a little bit rote, if that makes sense. Because some people come into this and their natural thing is so real, it's emotionally connected without trying. So I booked a lot in my second year. Like, I booked a ton of great things, like, in my second year. And then all of a sudden it fell off, because then I got just enough training to be like, oh, I know how this sounds. And then I started sounding like something rather than being the thing. And then you have to train yourself out of that. And I think all actors go through that. But that's what Hugh has done, and that's why he's so great to work with. Like, you're talking about Brad, is that when he sees you and he'll call you when you're B.S.
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A
yep.
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B
And some people, you know, have said, oh, I don't know if I'd like working with that. I. I feel like that's like, no, that's what you want.
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A
That's the only way you should be working.
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B
And you don't want someone who's mean.
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A
No, there's. There's a huge difference between that. Right. But definitely somebody who will tell you straight. I don't need somebody patting me on the bum and saying, good job if I'm not doing a good job. Like, I want somebody to be honest with me.
- [19:29]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And I ended up, for a while, I started doing this Little series on YouTube, and then I kind of dropped it because I was overwhelmed with too much stuff. But I had done this little series called the VO Glow up. And I took old auditions from Fay to play that I'd done and then redid them without hearing them first. So I would just look at the script and redo them and then compare. And I was like, oh, wow. Wow, like, seven, eight years ago. I'm like, this is totally different read. And the thing is, mostly it's the confidence.
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A
Yep.
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B
My reads before were very breathy, very light, sort of insubstantial, and, like, afraid. You know, it's that fear. You feel the fear behind the mic, and once you're not afraid anymore behind the mic, it's like, oh, they're present. They're there. Right.
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A
Everything is supposed to be genuine and authentic and natural now. And it's amazing how hard we try to be genuine and natural and authentic when in reality, you should not have to try at all. Right. And I mean, I catch myself with that all the time. I did an audition, a Voice123 audition, I don't know, two days ago. And I looked at the script, and I was like, oh, I could just feel it. Right. And I walk in, and I recorded this audition. I came out, I listened to it afterwards, and I'm like, wow, that's like, one of the best auditions I've submitted in a really long time. It sounds so much different from anything else that I've submitted, partly just because I really connected with what they were talking about. And within, I don't know, a couple hours, I was. Got the, like for it, you know, the short list or whatever. And I was like, it. I didn't try on that one.
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B
Yeah.
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A
I just went in and told the story because it made sense to me, and I didn't have to think, and I didn't. Wasn't underlining words. And you know, whatever. Like, I just went in and just did it. And I'm like, they should all be this easy. They should all be this easy. If you're just trying to be genuine and authentic and not overthinking and trying so hard.
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B
Well, and I think the thing about the script analysis, because that's something he was big on, is script analysis. And my acting teacher used to say, you know, you learn all these different techniques and you pack them in the backpack, but when you go on the hike, everything's in the backpack and it's there if you need it, but you're not actively holding all this stuff. And it's the same when you go and do the script. You need to be aware of the, you know, the three, the triptych. You need to be aware of the words that are important. You need to be aware of the client name and the tagline, all these things. And yet if you try to put emphasis on them, you're trying. People will hear that you're trying to emphasize it as opposed to it. If you were emotionally connected, you're naturally going to lift those words because you're emotionally. You're trying to get that story across. You're trying to communicate. So that's something that's really important. And also the flow of language that when you hear, when people are very new because they are speaking very steadily in the same tone, and you're like, it's not monotone, but it's also not like, naturally, when your thought stops, you stop speaking. Like I just did.
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A
Yep.
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B
And so you're not having that thought go through.
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A
I'm curious to know. So I think there's a couple of different approaches that are very common on the coaching side. One is you want to expose yourself to a bunch of different people, get a bunch of different perspectives. Right. Everybody. You're going to pick up something from everyone. And I agree that there's absolutely merit to that. On the other side, there's the argument that if you work with too many people and you get too many things, you're going to start to confuse yourself and you're going to start to think about, well, this is the way this one said I should do it, and this is the way that one said I should do it. And so there's something to be said for picking a coach and just working with them long term. So when I was getting ready to do my narration demo, my documentary narration demo, I worked with Tom Pinto for a year. I wasn't working with anybody else. I just spent a year working With Tom. And when I was getting ready to do this commercial demo, I spent a few months just working with Brad. What made you choose to go to Hugh? And going on three years now, as opposed to, you know, all the different coaches and all the different perspectives, I'm just curious how you landed on your decision.
- [23:34]
B
I don't know that it was even really a decision for me because like I said, I've worked with other people. My first real coach was Tom Pinto. I worked with him on documentary and promo. When I very first started, he was the first person I went to on an ongoing basis. And I had taken workshops with people, so I kind of get a little taste of what they're like. Right. But there wasn't much in Minneapolis for ongoing coaching at the time. There just wasn't a whole lot. And then after going to VO Atlanta, I feel like VO Atlanta changed my life because it opened up my vision of what is out there, what is available.
- [24:14]
A
There's a whole other side of this industry that is out there, eh?
- [24:17]
B
Yeah. Yeah. And so I ended up working. I worked with Mary Lynn a little bit. I've worked with Dave Walsh a little bit. And I think, you know, you go test out people and you see, like, does my personality drive? And if you can afford to, then you, you know, you can go do one on one sessions. If you can't afford to, then listening to them on podcasts, reading their stuff, if they have blogs, watching any appearance they've ever made that's, you know, free to watch or going to a workout. Those are all cheaper ways to get a sense of is this person's personality and mine going to jive? Do I like their coaching style? Do I feel like I can get something out of this? And with Hugh, it was more like, hey, you coach for accountability. I coach for this. We have worked out a trade that works for both of us. And, you know, so I coach you and he coaches me. And so that's how that came about. And at first it was just like a, let's test this out and see if it works. And then it's worked. I feel like if you can find those mutually beneficial relationships where you both have something to offer each other, it works. And other coaches are great, but you have to find the one that speaks to you and speaks your language.
- [25:41]
A
What's been one of your biggest unlocks that you've had working with you that long?
- [25:46]
B
You know, what, what he kind of does, he has his process just like anybody, but his is more inside out. Some people work very outside in and have these techniques that are. And when I say that, I mean, like, you know, Mary Lynn talks about very technical things that get at the sound of things almost. And Hugh's very. The opposite. It's like, no, how can you be this or embody this or emotionally connect to this so that it doesn't matter what it sounds like. It's going to sound right when you're emotionally connected. But he also notices, like you were saying, he notices what works for you specifically. And if something he is doing is not working for you specifically, it's like, okay, that one's not working so much. That's not connecting. Let's try this other thing instead. Instead of trying to beat his technique into you and force it to work, he adjusts. And so I think that's what's worked. And one of the biggest breakthroughs I had was realizing that the pre life doesn't need to be vocal or it doesn't need to be verbal. One day we were working together and I was just really tired, not feeling that great. Didn't really want to be there. And I just honestly said I'm like, I don't want to be here. I don't want to coach today. Like, and you can go through whole coaching sessions where, like, I've seen people do this and I've done this myself, where you're paying $250 an hour to coach with somebody, but you are resisting every second of it. You're talking too much, you're explaining too much rather than just doing the work. And it's a waste of money in people's time.
- [27:20]
A
Brad's laughing at you right now because he's like, oh, my gosh. Were you sitting on my shoulder while I was trying to work with Mark?
- [27:26]
B
I've watched people do it, and it's like you need a coach. Sometimes coaches allow people to do that because it's easier. And I appreciate that. Hugh does not. And so when he. That day, when that happened, I was resistant, and he's just like, come on, Bill, do it anyway. Do it anyway. Just express what you're feeling. And so I literally just kind of like. And I like, went down in the booth and I kind of screamed a little bit and just was like, let out what I was feeling. And in doing that, then I went into the script and all of a sudden it was brilliant.
- [28:00]
A
That's the power of finding the right person, right? You gotta find that person who gets you, but who won't let you get away with it. Right? And I think you Said it before, right. You don't want somebody who's mean. I don't need somebody that's gonna go military drill sergeant on me, but I need somebody who's not gonna let me get away with it. And that was Brad. Right. He would not let me get away with it. And so that's so important if you're gonna grow.
- [28:26]
B
Well. And that goes back to the accountability thing. It's like, you know, I think so. I've been. I've been running accountability groups for 10 years, and I started it right when I started voiceover. And a lot of people resist it because I think they think of it as something that's bad or that something that is, you know, like. I didn't like the word discipline for a long time. It sounds negative.
- [28:51]
A
Yep.
- [28:52]
B
But when you're doing it for yourself and you're doing it to make yourself better or to get more out of your own life, of what you actually want, and you realize it's all for you and for your hopes and dreams and goals, then it stops being. It's like, well, I'm not doing this for them. This person that's trying to hold me accountable is doing this because I said I wanted this thing. They're not trying to be mean. And there's. There's. There needs to be room for empathy. There needs to be room for that, but without letting you off the hook entirely. And that's what coaching is, too.
- [29:25]
A
We are so good at coming up with so many excuses on any given day. So let's get into the accountability thing, because I. This is a big part of why I wanted to have you on the show. I. I've got a. This new commercial demo with jmc. It actually came. It actually dropped today. It actually dropped about an hour or two before we recorded this conversation. And so I knew that that demo was coming, and I knew that I wanted to hit the ground running hot when that. That demo came. So I was like, okay, I'm going to go out. I'm going to find a whole bunch of commercial leads. I also know that I got a lot going on, and I can come up with a lot of reasons why I'm not going to find commercial leads. So I said, I'm going to run a challenge. I'm going to run a 100 lead challenge, and I'm going to invite a whole. Whoever. I'm going to give anybody that wants to buy, buy in, 30 bucks buy in. We're going to do this thing, and I'm going to walk you through how what I'm doing and teach you a bunch of strategies and Stu. But my motivation, and I wasn't shy about it, was a hundred percent selfish. I need to run this challenge because if I know that I got a whole bunch of voice actors that are doing that challenge, I got no choice but to get my butt out of bed every day and find the leads that I need to find. So I was literally creating this challenge to give myself accountability to do the thing. No excuse for me to show up and do the thing. The most fascinating part about it, and I don't know why, because I've seen this happen so many times in the past. So well over 100 people signed up for the challenge. We're halfway through it at this point. There hasn't been one day where every single person that signed up showed up. And by the time we got halfway through the challenge, we're literally at the point where about half of the people who signed up are actively participating. They signed up because they wanted accountability, they needed accountability. They recognized the value of accountability. But then they still got a hundred excuses for why they can't show up every day and do the thing.
- [31:16]
B
Yep.
- [31:17]
A
Why do we do that?
- [31:22]
B
You know, that's such a hard psychological thing. Because I've been. I've been there. I've been.
- [31:27]
A
Now we come to the therapy part of the voiceover. Yeah.
- [31:30]
B
Yeah. And like, okay. So I, you know, I talked, I talked once in a therapy session about, you know, I just said, I'm, you know, I'm coaching this person. And the person's like, maybe they need a therapist instead. And I said, what I do isn't therapy, though. It's very different. Therapists are kind of like surgeons who are fixing a root core problem. They're trying to repair something that's really deep and broken. Right. I'm more like a physical therapist who's there to build the muscles around it so you can still function on a day to day basis and get done what you want to. Why do we do that to ourselves? I don't know the reason. Just like you in making that challenge, the reason I started my accountability group in the first place, partially because my acting teacher said someone needs to start an admin group, because that's what he called them. Do the administrative part of acting. Right.
- [32:25]
A
Yep.
- [32:26]
B
He said we had admin groups. Someone should start one. And finally, after years of him saying that, I just. My hand went up and I was like, I'll do it. Fine, I'll do it. And part of it is that Somebody else had made an admin group a year or two before, and I went to one meeting of it, and all it was was a complain fest. It was just a big old, big old complainy, complainy, woe is me fest. And I was so turned off by that. I was like, this isn't getting us any closer to getting anything done or getting where we want to be. It's just ruining our mindset about.
- [33:02]
A
Yep.
- [33:02]
B
It's all this negativity and not accountability at all. Yeah, no. And. And so I ended up starting the admin group. And like, you're saying, like, the first day, There were like 15 people there, and we met at a cafe before acting class, and everyone's like, gung ho. And then it fell off to, like, it was like 10 people, and then it was like, yep, seven. And then there were days when I would show up and, like, five people would have responded that they were coming and I would be the only one there.
- [33:31]
A
Yep.
- [33:32]
B
And after about a year of running that, one of my friends was like, you know, I was. I was complaining to her like, oh, these people aren't showing up. I don't understand. And she's like, well, you don't have to do this. And I was like, but I do, because I need it.
- [33:46]
A
I need it. Yep.
- [33:47]
B
And so then that reframed it, though, in my head is like, oh, but if I'm showing up because I need it, and I know other people need it, but they don't seem to know they need it, then if I'm showing up and they're not there, then I'm here for me. And so once I reframed that and I just went, okay, well, if no one shows up on a particular day, I'm not gonna waste my time being upset that they're not there. I'm gonna just get my work done.
- [34:10]
A
I still showed up. I'm still doing what I need to do for me.
- [34:14]
B
Yep, exactly. And I, as a leader, need to lead by example, which means staying positive, not making excuses, and still trying to lead with empathy. Like, I'm not. I'm not heartless. And I think sometimes people think, oh, you're just being mean, trying to hold me accountable. And I'm like, no, if your pet died, totally understand. But if you know you're going to have a hard week, part of my thing is if you know that you are busy and you're going to have a hard week and it's going to be. You got a lot going on in your life, there's always Something you can be doing. And I personally, my belief is that by continuing to move forward, even if it's a tiny, tiny motion, that is what builds your self esteem and your self efficacy over time. And if you're not consistently doing that for yourself, you're not giving yourself that gift. So even if things are blowing up in your life, the gift to yourself is, okay, well, I'm still gonna go to yoga this week or I'm still going to write an email and prove to myself that I can. Because you can make that task as small as you want to because you're the one in control. But you just have to say, I'm going to do this and then do it. And then that proves to yourself that you believe in yourself and that you believe you're worth it.
- [35:36]
A
The reality is that there will always be an excuse. Sometimes there will be five excuses. There will always be an excuse. And if you don't nip that in the bud at some point, you will just never progress. Right? I mean, I get frustrated because I see the value. I see what it does for me, I see what it does for other people who participate. And I naturally want everybody to experience that. And it's like, why can't you see this? I'm just trying to help you. But I like the fact that like you said, like, I'm here for me, right? I, I ran this challenge for me. So at the end of the day, as long as I get my hundred leads out of this challenge, I'm winning. Right? If, if a few other people do it as well, amazing. If half of them don't even bother. I mean, I can't do it for you, but thank you for giving me the opportunity to do it for me, I guess, right? So the accountability is still there and it's still working for me. But it is such an underrated, overlooked aspect of what it takes to succeed. And I don't even think just in this industry, I just think in general is having some form of accountability that makes you show up and do the thing even when you don't feel like doing the thing. Because there are going to be a lot of days when you just don't feel like doing the thing, but sometimes you gotta suck it up and do it anyway.
- [37:09]
B
Well, you know what? It is? Okay, so when, when I was still doing on camera and stage acting and I was also working in restaurants and I'd be at the restaurant and I'd be like, ugh, I wish I was anywhere else but here. I just want to be an Actor. I just want to be my own boss. I just want to. Right? And I spent over 10 years not pursuing the voiceover thing because I didn't know how. Because I didn't. I guess my excuse then was, well, I don't know how. Right. Well, I don't know where to take classes. I don't know how to get a demo. And I didn't take it on myself to figure that out.
- [37:48]
A
Right?
- [37:50]
B
And when I finally started. Started in 2016, and I just was like, enough. I'm doing this. I don't care if my first demo is terrible. I. I had spent 10 years recording audio off the radio and transcribing it and practicing it and doing. I'm like, I'm just going to make a demo and see what happens. That's it. And a lot of people told me I was doing the wrong thing by not having coaching first. And maybe I was, but. But I had a lot of acting experience, and my demo didn't cost me $2,000. It cost me $400. And I went and did it, and I booked my first job. That was a $5,000 job. So I got an agent from that. And that's not everybody's story. So I'm not telling anybody what to do by any means. But I'm just saying my goal in all the accountability stuff is to inspire other people to just get started, to stop making the excuses of, I don't know how. I don't. You know, it's. It's too hard. I don't know what the first step is, or that step is too big, or I don't have the money or I don't have the time or whatever, or I'll do it when my kids are out of school. It's like, no, the time is now. Tomorrow is not guaranteed. The time is now. Just do it. Just start. And, you know, I don't know. I always just want to inspire people to do those things and not wait like, I waited.
- [39:22]
A
Accountability has been a big part of the ecosystem of my coaching for, I don't know, a decade longer. And I have people who come to me who want to start accountability groups, some who have started accountability groups. And the number one piece of advice that I give to them is, in order for an accountability group to be an accountability group, you actually have to hold people accountable, which means if somebody's not showing up, if somebody's not participating, if somebody's not doing the thing, like, you can't just pat them on the bum and say, good job. You gotta Actually hold them accountable, which means you're gonna have to have some awkward conversations from time to time. Doesn't mean you gotta be mean, don't have to be rude about it. But if you're gonna truly hold somebody accountable, like if I'm not, if I'm not showing up to my challenge, doing my lead thing every day, I want somebody to say, dude, where you, why aren't you, why aren't you doing it right? So I've said that that's one of the most important pieces of this, is that you have to have somebody in that group who will be the one who is willing to hold people accountable where they need to be held accountable. You've been running these groups for a really long time. What do you think is an essential ingredient to running a successful accountability group?
- [40:39]
B
A few things, but exactly what you said. You either need to have one person who kind of takes charge or everyone needs to equally be in that same boat. I have not found that to be the case because not everybody wants to be a leader and not everybody wants to or can be there every week. And unfortunately, even in the groups I'm in, you know, you have certain people who are always there and then you have other people who show up sporadically. And you know, it works best if you're always there and it I. Some people say, oh, we're just going to run our group once a month. And I'm like, I don't think that's the best idea.
- [41:16]
A
It's not really accountability at that point.
- [41:18]
B
No, it's a check in, but it's not really accountability because you're not going to remember what you even did. I mean, half the time we don't remember what we did last week unless we write it down. So. Yep, I, I personally think people need to check in more often. Daily is a little much. I think daily is too much unless you're an exceptional, like, hey, five minutes, let's just check in, whatever. Hugh and I have actually been co working every day during the week for the last two weeks. Except even that hasn't been possible all the time because he has sessions and I have sessions and. But weekly is good. And I think the other thing you said, you know, you have to have the awkward conversations. But something I learned by doing it the wrong way early on was shame can never be a part of it because the second that somebody feels shamed, they shut down and the psychological safety isn't there. And people will even shut down even if you're not the one shaming them. Because they will shame themselves. So it has to be clear for everybody that this is not about shaming people. But I had somebody in one of my first groups shut down and she just lied and said she'd gotten her tasks done. But then later she owned up to the fact that she hadn't. But she said that because she felt shame. And I was like, but it's not about that. It has to be about if you're not getting it done, how can we help you get it done?
- [42:48]
A
What's the root cause behind that? How do we address that?
- [42:50]
B
Yeah, right. Is it overwhelm? Is it fear? Is it feelings of low self esteem? Is it, you know, what is it? Because I think that's where it comes into, like, it can get into therapy land if you're not careful. But it has to be like, okay, it seems like you're having a fear response to sending this email to an important person. How do we help you do that anyway? Yeah, so I'm not there to fix that self esteem issue. I'm there to go, hey, how about we help you take action in spite of. Yeah, because it's not going to kill you. It's not going to hurt you. I'm just going to sit there and I'm going to help you put the finger on the send button and you're going to send the email.
- [43:31]
A
Sometimes you got to do the hard thing just to prove to yourself that you can do the hard thing. And then it's only a hard thing once.
- [43:36]
B
Right?
- [43:36]
A
Right. Once you've done it the first time and you're like, wow, the world didn't end. Nothing catastrophic happened. My business is still intact. I am still breathing. Maybe I can do this again tomorrow, you know, maybe I can do it over and over and over again. Right. Sometimes we build some of this stuff up in our head. So scary. It's all narratives, right? So much of it comes back to narratives and the stories that we tell ourselves. And so sometimes we just need to do the hard thing one time just so that we realize it's repeatable.
- [44:03]
B
I would say that you have to learn to do the hard thing always, not just the one time, because there's always going to be another hard thing or there's always going to be another step that's. That will make you uncomfortable. And you have to just get used to being uncomfortable and doing things in spite of being uncomfortable, because that is how you get to where you want to be. The other thing I was going to say before is we are entrepreneurs. Right? You, you're a vopeneur. We get into this thinking, I'm going to go be my own boss. But then we forget that when you have a real boss, that boss is holding you accountable. That boss is setting, you know, quarterly things you got to hit. You got standards to uphold. You have all your tasks set for you and you will be held accountable if you don't reach them. And people think they want to be their own boss until they get into it and then realize no one is holding them to those 100 leads and no one is holding them to being there for that client job. That's at 7am no one's holding them to any of this. They have to do it all themselves. And most people need outside accountability or they won't succeed. And we have that built in when we're employees. When we are our own bosses, we are on our own.
- [45:28]
A
You figure out pretty quick, or at least I did. My mortgage is my outside accountability. My car payment is my outside accountability. My electric bill is my outside of accountability. Right. I can only not do the thing for so long before I start to get. I got all kinds of people who want to hold me accountable at the Dr. Pepperville. Yeah, right. I got plenty of accountability at the end of the month if I, if I don't get things done. You talk about doing hard things. One of the things that I admire about you is that you are one of the few people that I know who actively speak about the business side of the business, not just the performance side of the business. And accountability is obviously one of those big things. One of the subjects that I enjoy discussing, although people don't enjoy listening to always. I had David Quique on my podcast about a year ago, and David's a data analyst. And I said, david, this should be the most listened to episode of my podcast if people know what was good for them. But it will probably be one of the least downloaded because they'll see data analyst and be like, no thanks. And I was pretty accurate in my prediction of how that one played out. But there is so much value in paying attention to certain data points in your business because it can tell a lot of stories and it can help you figure out what you're doing right and what you're doing wrong. And it can help you figure out where there's room for improvement. And I know that that is something that you have talked about in the past, is just following the numbers and paying attention to some of this stuff. So let's dig into that a little bit. Let's talk about what are some of the numbers that we really should be paying attention to other than just, am I making money?
- [47:21]
B
Yeah, yeah, of course. No. Okay. So I think the importance of paying attention to any numbers is, you know, I always use this example is, if I give you a penny, are you rich? No. Okay, if I give you another penny, are you rich? Well, at some point there's a tipping point. Right, but who sets that? Nobody sets that. We have to decide that on our own. And then we also have to. And this goes for any goal setting. It's like, okay, well, if my goal is to make $120,000 this year and I only make 119.999. You know what I mean? Am I a failure? Am I going to come down on myself super harshly because I didn't quite make it?
- [47:58]
A
Yep.
- [47:59]
B
That's silly. Right? So we have to have some sort of, you know, more of a range for things so that we're not judging ourselves for not getting over that line when we're like, come on, you still got a silver medal. It's great. So I think stats and this I got from Jenna Pinchbeck because I heard her speak years back and she was only two years in the industry at the time. And I was, I don't know, six years? Five. Six years. And I was like, I've been in the industry longer than her, but she knows her stuff. And she talked about it being a numbers game. And some people will say it isn't. And I'm like, yeah, but in some ways it kind of is, especially on the pay to place.
- [48:44]
A
Yep.
- [48:45]
B
And most of the time when somebody comes to me, like friends of mine, and say, this isn't working for me, or I don't know what I'm doing wrong, I'm not booking. And I look at their numbers for Voice123 and I go, you're not auditioning enough. Like, most people are not going to have a 1 in 40 booking ratio. That's pretty good. And my friend had a 1 in 40 to 50 booking ratio. And I'm like, well, that's a really pretty good booking ratio. But don't worry as much about what the ratio is. Worry more about booking the jobs. So if you're not booking as much as you want to book, Jenna would say, you know, you do as many auditions as you need to. Or you, you know, if you're doing direct marketing, you send as many emails as you need to and then you know what the number is. And obviously you need a lot of data to really decide what that number is.
- [49:41]
A
But once you know your booking ratio, that can help. I mean, a lot of the other numbers will come from that, right? Like, if I know that I'm booking a 1 in 50, and I know that my average booking is X number of dollars, and I know that I want to earn X number of dollars, you can extrapolate that out pretty easily to figure out, okay, well, I need to get X number of auditions submitted in order to book X number of jobs that X number at X value in order to reach X income. But a lot of people aren't tracking any of that. They're not paying attention to any of that. And I think those are things that we need to look at. And then it's not just a question of, well, If I'm booking 1 in 50 and I need to submit X number of auditions to get to 1 in 50, the other question is, well, what can I do? Or is there something that I could do to get to 1 in 40?
- [50:30]
B
Sure, yeah.
- [50:31]
A
1 in 35. Or, you know, like, if I, you know, do some more coaching or is it time to update a demo or, you know, stuff like that. But it's the stuff that nobody's paying attention to, but it's the stuff that can make a huge difference. And I get it. We're creatives. We want to be creative. Nobody signed up to be a voice actor, so they could sit in front of a spreadsheet all day. Like, I get that side of it.
- [50:53]
B
And I also use Voiceover View because, you know, Danny States created such a great tool with that. And I really. I really love that. I don't track, like, every single little detail. But what I do track is I do track my percentage ratio on voice 1, 2, 3, because I want to know how I'm doing in the algorithm and all of that. But I think what Jenna came down to, too, is she. She figured out how many auditions she needed to be doing a week to book what she wanted to book and make what she wanted to make. But then she also figured out, like, you're saying, if my average job is this, and I know I book one in this, then this is how much each individual audition is worth to me. And what I loved about that statistic is if you put that statistic together, then on those days when you're like, I don't want to go in the booth, I don't feel like it. I'm just feeling kind of down, you can tell yourself much more easily, hey, but I know over time, all these. If I go do five auditions. That is worth $55 to me. If it's $11 an audition, great. You know how much your audition is worth. Then you go do the number of auditions you need to do each day to make what you want to make. And that's an easier way to look at it, because otherwise it's like gambling. Coin slot, coin slot, audition, audition, audition. Oh, jackpot. It's like, no. Every coin you put in that slot is what you're getting out.
- [52:19]
A
I think the other thing that we need to be looking at, too, is what are the auditions that we are booking? Right. So if I can see a common thread. Wow. I consistently seem to book this. Whatever that is, this genre, when they ask for this style of read, when they ask for this range, whatever. That's also a clue. Okay, well, I need to focus more of my attention on those and maybe a little bit less attention on some of these other ones that I. I don't seem to be getting anywhere with. So where there's. I think there are certain pieces of data that we need to be paying attention to, but I think there are probably things that we're paying attention to that really aren't that big of a deal in the grand scheme of things. What might some of those things be that we just need to stop focusing and stressing over so much because they don't matter as much?
- [53:08]
B
That's a good question. I want to throw it back and be like, what do you think? What are the ones you're thinking of?
- [53:15]
A
And I think we pay too much attention to follower counts and like. And comment ratios and some of that stuff. Not to say that it's not important, but if I put out a post on social media and I get 100 voice actors that like that post, did that do anything to get me a voiceover job? Whereas if I put out a post on social media and only five people like it, but all five of those people are video producers.
- [53:44]
B
Mm.
- [53:45]
A
What's more valuable now? The hundred likes. And the five likes, to me, the five likes are more valuable, for sure. And so I think sometimes it's paying attention to the wrong numbers and making sure, am I hitting the right people? Am I targeting the right audience? Am I doing this in the right way? Would. Would I like to have, I don't know, the viral videos and follower counts of Stefan Johnson? I mean, sure, probably. But would I be just as happy a few hundred people saw each video that I posted, and all of those people were potential buyers because I was getting the video in front of the right. Right audience, that would matter to me more. And so I think sometimes those are some of the things. We're getting it backwards. We're focusing on the wrong thing. Oh, I didn't get any likes today, or I didn't get as many likes as I got yesterday. So that post didn't work. Okay, well, maybe. Or maybe you didn't get as many, but maybe you got more likes from the right people.
- [54:43]
B
Right.
- [54:44]
A
And so then maybe it actually did work.
- [54:47]
B
Yeah, it's. And it's hard to say. And I think, I think people do social media for the wrong reason. Yeah, people do social media because people tell them they should do social media or because they want that big following and they expect it. And I think this happens with real clients, too. Real clients who get social media people to work for them expect a lot from that. And they expect it to actually drive sales. And it doesn't really drive sales. It drives awareness, which in the end drives.
- [55:22]
A
Sales can be a factor. Right? Yeah.
- [55:23]
B
Right. And so I think it's more, you know, I only just. I got really into LinkedIn in 2021ish, maybe even 2020, through the Actors Fund. They had a big, like, really intense LinkedIn intensive that was like three classes plus then an intensive where you like a couple months. And I was very, very into that. I participated very. I showed up a lot and I. So I learned a lot about what makes that work and what ended up happening, though. You know, people are like, oh, have you booked jobs from that? And I'm like, no, not that I can point to until recently. And this past year, I finally booked a job where somebody actually found me on LinkedIn. And I was like, there you go. But I also don't do what some people do, which is the whole, like, I'm gonna drop into their DMs immediately and be like, hi, I'm a voice actor. Please hire me at some point. And I'm like, no, don't, don't do that. Because the people I know who are producers or video people are like, why do people do that? Like, I don't know. I'm sorry.
- [56:31]
A
LinkedIn is a different kind of world, and it operates in a different kind of way from some of the other social media platforms, that's for sure. So I know accountability is your big thing, and I know you're running these accountability groups. Is it possible for somebody to get in? What does that look like? How, if somebody wants to find out more about one of your accountability groups,
- [56:50]
B
what do we have to do current. So I have a. Currently the accountability groups are kind of on hiatus because I just moved across the country and had some family stuff going on. So I decided not to run them this spring because they're very labor intensive.
- [57:07]
A
Yes, they are
- [57:10]
B
a lot of work behind the scenes to make that happen. And my accountability crash course is really like a 10 week course that teaches different principles of motivation and getting things done and all that stuff. So it's not just an accountability group. But currently I have a Monday sort of accountability light thing going on called the Chrysalis Club. And it's very reasonably priced. It's only 33 bucks for every four weeks. And it's one hour of sort of group coaching and then one hour of co working. So it's a much more approachable. I think sometimes people go into accountability groups and then they realize like, oh, I've already devoted an hour to the group and now I have to go do this stuff. And then they don't do the stuff because they don't have anyone holding them accountable during the week and they're not used to it. So it's kind of like training wheels for that. So currently I have that. And then Monday nights I have a workout group that I run that's also free, open to anyone wants to come in. And then I have a mailing list. So it's at audaciousaccountability.com you can send it for the mailing list. And I send out free and low cost events in the voiceover industry. I kind of curate a list of those each week. And sometimes I write a blog. Not anymore. Not. Not very much, but I sometimes do. So.
- [58:31]
A
Blogging was so hard. I remember those days.
- [58:34]
B
Oh my gosh. Oh. And then the other thing I'm. I'm thinking of starting, if anybody's interested in out there, is I wanted to start a voiceover business book club because a lot of people talk about wanting to read more about business stuff and I read a lot, but it's kind of fallen off since I moved from Atlanta because can't listen to the audiobooks and walk outside when there's two feet of snow. So why not?
- [59:02]
A
Where's your commitment?
- [59:03]
B
I mean, I do have some good sorrel boots. It was just a little bit treacherous here. So anyway, you know, I was thinking about starting that sometime soon and doing like a once month book club for people to read books but then discuss how the business in these books relates to VO specifically.
- [59:25]
A
Well, I am always on the lookout for a great read. So what are some of your recommended reads?
- [59:32]
B
Ooh, there's so many. There's so many. I mean, James Clear is obviously a great one. Grit. Angela Duckworth. Cal Newport.
- [59:44]
A
Deep work Classic.
- [59:46]
B
There's. There's so many. I mean, four Hour Workweek is great if you want to, like, offload some stuff and get some assistant doing things for you, like lead generation. Yeah, there's. There's so many. There's a lot.
- [60:02]
A
It's one of those things where I've. I've said from the very beginning, the only reason why I know anything that I know today that I teach in voiceover from a marketing and business standpoint is because I read it in a book. That's it. I got a giant shelf overflowing, like, literally. I've got stacks of books on the floor now. I can't put them on the shelf anymore. And it's all business, sales, marketing, entrepreneurship. Right. And so many of the lessons that I've learned that have helped me to achieve what I've achieved in my business have come from reading those books. And I really think for the people who are willing to do it, it makes a big difference. In the same way that I think accountability. Nobody says it's going to be easy, but the people who do it and who embrace it, I mean, it's been one of the single biggest factors in me achieving the things that I've wanted to achieve and continuing to work towards other things. Is that accountability? I wish I could pinpoint. Wow. I read about accountability in this book or picked up the concept from this. I don't remember what the origin story of it was for me, but I know that since I have incorporated that and made it such a big part of my journey, it has been one of the single biggest contributing factors to my success. And so I love the fact that there is somebody who is out there that's offering that and making that a part of the journey and giving voice actors the opportunity to have that as a part of the journey. So thank you for that. Even if you're taking a break right now, something tells me there might be a little bit of uptick in demand after this episode comes out. So you might have to evaluate whether or not you want to get going again. But we'll put all the resources that you mentioned, the website and everything like that, we'll put that into the show notes so people can find out a little bit more and dig into it or reach out to you if they're interested. Billy Joe, this has been awesome.
- [61:48]
B
Awesome. Yeah. It's been great talking to you.
- [61:52]
A
It's been a fun conversation. Kind of want to talk to Hugh again. It's the hat. I, I, I tease him all the time. I've teased him about it so many times. They're like, man, I wish I could pull off a hat like you. If I could.
- [62:03]
B
Just don't, don't call it a fedora. He will correct you.
- [62:06]
A
Really?
- [62:07]
B
It's not a fedora.
- [62:08]
A
What? Okay, lesson learned. I always thought it was. I just assumed that that would be what you would classify as a fedora.
- [62:14]
B
I thought so too, but no. Nope, it's not.
- [62:18]
A
Well, now I want to do it just to see. I'm going to get everybody watching this episode to email him and say, we really love your fedora. All right, Billie Joe, thank you so much for sharing what you've shared and for bringing accountability to the voiceover industry. I really do think that it's an important factor in the success of a lot of voice actors who are willing to embrace it. And I hope that after this, a few more will.
- [62:47]
B
Yeah. Thanks, Mark.
- [62:49]
A
Next to your demos, what's your most important marketing tool? The answer is your website. You've got to have a place where you can not only house those demos, but where you can direct people to find out more about you, listen to those demos, and ultimately be able to get in touch with you to book you for voiceover work. You need to have a reliable website. And that is why I trust upper level hosting to host my website, and Brad has been doing it for years. If you want to register a new domain, if you want to set yourself up with email, if you want to get a reliable web host that you can trust upper levelhosting.com.