← Everyday VOpreneur® with Marc Scott
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- [00:01]
A
Get ready for the business masterclass that you didn't even know you needed, but you're going to thank me for when it's done.
- [00:09]
B
You're a voice actor. You're an entrepreneur. You're a Veopreneur. Welcome to the Everyday veopreneur podcast, your guide through the business of voiceover.
- [00:19]
A
When it comes to the business side of voiceover, Veopreneur.com has been created to be one of your primary resources. That's all you'll find there. Everything business and marketing related to voiceover, from episodes of the podcast to the free Advice Friday livestream to premium coaching classes and training resources, everything you need. Your guide through the business of voiceover is available@veopreneur.com that's veopreneur.com the Veopreneur Podcast. Hey, it doesn't suck.
- [00:54]
B
Not as funny as Conan, not as cute as Seth Meyers, not as smart as Colbert. But he's one of us and that counts for something. Here's Mark Scott, the original Everyday veopreneur.
- [01:07]
A
It's called the voiceover business for a reason. You're not just choosing to flex your creative muscles and acting chops in the booth. You're also choosing to start a small business, which means you need to have at least a basic understanding of some business and entrepreneurship fundamentals. Now, to help us navigate some of these fundamentals is a voice actor who has been doing it since 1996. His clients include Nat Geo Wild, Pearson and Audible. Welcome to the show, the VO strategist Tom Deer.
- [01:36]
C
Thank you for having me back, you sucker. Glutton for punishment, you.
- [01:41]
A
Do you ever get nervous when you say, I've been doing this since 1996? You know how when you're starting out new, you don't really want anybody to know how long you've been doing it because you're afraid if you sound too new, they're not going to be interested. But I look back at the start date for my voiceover business now, which is around the same time as yours, and there comes a point where I'm like, people are going to think I'm an old fart and they're not going to want to work with me anymore. Like, I'm going to get judged because of how many years I've been doing this.
- [02:09]
C
Do you ever? Well, then they're a bunch of. Then there are a bunch of ageist jerks.
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A
There you go.
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C
You know what I mean? And you and I are so. And you and I are so young at heart. That's Right. No, I, for me, it's a badge of honor. Yeah, it really is. Because, you know, I've been trying, I've said I've been trying to do this for, for such a long time. You know, a good chunk of that time was trying to do this for such a long time, and then the other half is doing this for, for such a long time. But, like, you know, just all modesty aside, it's a, it's a, it's a testament to my persistence.
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A
Yeah.
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C
You know what I mean? Because, like, this is such a hard thing to do. And everybody think, when they come in, they think it's so easy to do. Oh, yeah, I just talk like this or whatever and it's just like. And then, then there's that uncanny valley thing when they're like, wait a minute, hold on, I got to pay taxes. Time management, workflow, marketing. Gross.
- [03:02]
A
Yeah.
- [03:02]
C
You know, and then, and then they kind of. And they, and they wander off or they just keep trying until they run out of money. Which I don't know if you've noticed, but I've been noticing more people on social media groups saying, hey, I'm selling all of my voiceover equipment. I don't know if you've been noticing that lately.
- [03:16]
A
I have seen a few people that are doing that. You know what I actually had, I do 15 minute consultations. I think you do something similar. And some of the recent consultations that I've had with people, it's a reminder to them, or maybe it's a reality check for them of, no, don't quit your day job yet. This is not a career where you just wake up and decide, this is what I want to do. I've got my demos, so now I'm just going to quit my job and go full time into voiceover. I'm like, I don't think that's a good idea. I don't like, this is going to take a minute until you've got some, some money coming in. And I think a lot of people don't realize that though, because, I mean, quite frankly, and you've seen it there, there are a lot of people out there, a lot of coaches. I use air quotes with coaches who, who, who do promise, you know, oh, you're going to be making six figures by the end of the year and it's so easy. And, you know, just sign up for this casting site and that thing and do this over here on Fiverr and the money will just start rolling in. And, and, and then guys like me come in and just crush all their hopes and dreams and be like, actually, let me tell you how this is really probably going to go for you.
- [04:24]
C
Yeah, there's coaches, a lot of coaches who try to sell you dreams, but you and I, we sell reality.
- [04:31]
A
Yeah.
- [04:32]
C
Which is why our X sessions are always the last ones to sell out.
- [04:37]
A
I don't want the reality.
- [04:40]
C
No, no. And it's funny because like again, all modesty aside, we're the things. We are the guys that they need the most but they want the least. They need. They need us the most. Because most people in a 9 to 5 or managerial or salaried position for their entire adult lives don't have the faintest idea what it means to be self employed, much less how to self market, much less to manage their own finances in a way that's not just direct deposit of their paycheck every 14 days and then get a W2 at the end of the year, take the standard deduction and they're done. You know, there's so many different moving parts on both an intellectual or systems of thought level, as I like to say, and then on a practical or like I say, systems of execution level that it's, it's crazy. It's crazy and it's. And it's not for most of them, it's not terrifying at first because they don't know what they don't know.
- [05:32]
A
Yep.
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C
You know, they're in the horror movie, you know, in the shower, just having a great time and not knowing that there's the guy with the ax go slowly making their way through your house.
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A
You know, I know so much more about tax code now than I ever dreamed that I would have to know back in the day, like I was. There's a part of me that really appreciates when I was young and ignorant and clueless and didn't need to know some of these things. But this is the reality of starting a business. So you know what, let's actually start there. Because one of the most important subjects that I learned about, and I wish I had figured it out 10 years sooner into my business, there's making money and there's keeping money. And those two things do not necessarily go hand in hand. We need to learn not just how to make money, but we need to learn how to keep the money as well. So with that in mind, you know, tis the season for tax time. Let's talk a little bit about this distinction between making money and keeping money and some of the tax things that we need to understand.
- [06:51]
C
Right? Yeah. There is a difference between accumulating revenue and then retaining the revenue. You know, Robert Kiyosaki, who is the author of the Rich Dad, Poor dad series, and if you've never read them, I strongly recommend reading, reading as many of them as you can, is that his mantra is pay yourself first, but when it comes to taxes, it's also pay the government. You know, it's an if A is pay yourself first, the 1B is pay the government first because they're going to.
- [07:19]
A
Get it one way or another.
- [07:20]
C
Well, yeah. Well, one thing that a lot of people don't realize is that when you get paid as a voice actor and there's no withholding, about 25% of that money is not yours, it's the government's. Even though it's in your grubby little hand right now, you're still responsible for making sure that money gets into their pockets. So if nothing else, if you take nothing else away from this podcast episode, is that you need to pay your quarterly estimated taxes. Set up a system. There's a couple of different ways to do this. One thing that my wife and I do is my wife's also a freelancer. So we file jointly and then after it's all done and our CPA figures out, you know, what we owe or what we are owed, she then prints out a series of coupons for federal taxes and then for state slash local taxes. And based on our previous year's filings, it deter she will guesstimate on a quarterly basis how much tax we owe. So instead of us doing the math or whatever, she literally prints out coupons and gives us printed out envelopes and we just either stuff it in the envelope or pay or we go online and we pay there. So that's one way to do it. Another way to do it is to just take roughly 25 to 30% of everything that you owe and just put it in a savings account. Our friend Liz Dinesh does a transfer every time she gets paid into her credit union savings account. That's one way to do it. You could do it once a week, you could do it once a month, you could do it once, you could do it once a quarter. The nice thing about doing it more often is that it means that savings account has more time to accumulate interest. So you're making money off of the money that you are going to pay the government. So if you keep this quarterly estimated savings tax tax savings account intact and you keep putting in and saving, it makes money. You pay what you owe, you'll have money left over because of the interest you've earned. Eventually it won't pay for itself, but it could go a long way towards offsetting some of your quarterly tax burden.
- [09:37]
A
I would rather have money sitting in my bank making interest for me than money sitting in the government's bank making money for them. Which is something that I thought was really interesting because I was reading an article that talked about how people get so excited when they get a tax refund. Well, the reality is that by getting a tax refund, all that means is you let the government hold a whole bunch of your money interest free for a year and now they're giving it back to you. Which is not the perspective that most people see it from, but that's.
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C
I think it's money. They think they won the lottery of income, but it's not.
- [10:08]
A
That's actually one of the advantages of being the self employed is that I can hold onto that, I can build that, I can invest that, I can do whatever as long as I pay out what I have to pay out when it comes time to pay out. The reality of my situation now is, and it sounds crazy when I think of it, my quarterly tax installments are the equivalent each quarter of what my very first full time radio salary was for an entire year. Which is both a testament to how poorly I was paid in radio in 1996, but also how much money you pay in taxes in Canada. But that is not a bill that you want to get and be like, oh, surprise, by the way, you owe. And that's one area where I see voice actors get themselves in so much trouble. Their business starts to take off. They're doing the things that they need to do. You know, they coached with the right people, got their demos made with the right people, they're marketing in the right way, they're submitting great auditions, Everything seems to be rolling and they're feeling great. And then surprise. You owe X number of thousands of dollars which you do not have because you were not prepared.
- [11:19]
C
Yeah.
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A
And man, that is a re. And speaking as someone who found himself in that situation, you know, that is a really uncomfortable place to be.
- [11:28]
C
Yeah. My first time that I remember sitting in my CPA's office in 2007 because I went full time October 2005, which meant 2006 was my first full calendar year of being a full time voice actor. So therefore, I filed my 2006 taxes in 2007. So that was the first time I made like more than $6,000. I think it was something like that it's like, it went up a lot, you know, for all the reasons. And then he was like, okay, you owe this. And I'm like, I don't have that. He's like, what do you mean you don't.
- [12:03]
A
I owe this.
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C
And that's when I discovered quarterly estimated taxes. So that was like 17 years ago. And I. I religiously, faithfully, consistently pay my quarterly estimated taxes every year. One little hack that I do do. Which are. Which I did. I'm on my second cpa. The first one I had when I was living in New Jersey and now living in New York City. We use my wife's cpa, who specializes in freelancers, because my wife's been a freelancer almost as long as I have in our respective jobs. But if we do get a refund, our CPA just rolls over the refund into our next quarterly payment. So, no, we're not getting it and saving the interest, but just logistically and paperwork wise, it works a lot easier. Sometimes we get a refund so big that we don't have to pay our next quarterly estimated tax at all out of our own pockets. It just rolls over. So if that's something that interests you, that may be something you want to talk to your. To your accountant about to just make things just a little less paperwork, a little less math, a little less.
- [13:03]
A
See, when I've got money left over at the end of the year, once the. The quarterlies have been paid and the final taxes are done, if I know there's money left over, I'm dropping it straight into my retirement account. Because when I put that into, it's. We have the RRSP in Canada. I think the equivalent is the. Maybe the Roth ira.
- [13:20]
C
Ira, yeah.
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A
In the States. But now that money that just went into that RRSP is coming off of my earnings for the following tax year, which brings my tax bill down. And so that's one of the other lessons that I have learned over time. But again, some of these lessons, very much learned the hard way. I'm a huge fan of from the very beginning, right out of the gate. I don't care if this is the first voiceover job that you've ever booked. Just take that 20 or 30% or whatever it is from every single invoice that comes in. Don't wait till the end of the month or don't wait until you have a certain amount. Just get yourself into the habit of taking it off of every single invoice. Just build that account up. Because if you start out, when you're if you start out in that habit when you're making no money, it's a lot easier to keep doing it when you're making more money. If you do not start that habit right away. The more money that you make, the harder it gets to start taking 25 or 30%. Like you don't want to do it. You want to keep the money.
- [14:19]
C
You get comfortable with the lifestyle that it provides. No matter how modest an increase that may be going to see an extra movie a month or.
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A
Yeah, whatever it is. Yeah.
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C
Or whatever. Yeah. No, that's really important. It's just like any other profession or vocation. But building good habits at home, whether it's you do the dishes at the same time every day, you know, or when you mow your lawn or whatever, or when you're managing your, managing your finances, building good habits. You always get rewarded for building good habits. I'll give a silly example. When I was in high school or college, you know, I, I, I'm still a comic book fan. You know, I still producing a comic book and you know, I'm all things comics. You know, when I would go to the comic book store, my mom, my mom, you know, she would, she had a credit card issued in my name. It was her account, but it had my name on the credit card. She's like, when you go to buy your comic books, put it on the credit card at the end of the month. I'll tell you how much you racked up. You give me that money, I pay that. And that's why I have all three of my credit scores at over 800 right now. Because we're talking 20 plus 25 years, maybe 30 years of building a good credit history. So the credit card companies, the, and the Experian and Equifax and all the, and trans rewarded my good habits with a good credit score, which is critical for getting a loan for your car, for getting a loan for college, which getting a loan for your mortgage, for opening more credit cards or a myriad of other things.
- [15:54]
A
Small business, more bad habits.
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C
Good.
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A
Have your voice build.
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C
Exactly. And that's the other. Yeah, building good habits as a voice actor. This is why I tend to do the same things almost every day, almost in the same way. Because you want to train your, your hands and your eyes and your brain and your heart with your, your creativity, with doing good. If you do good habits consistently, you will get rewarded for it. Past couple of years I'm at my desk at 7:30 almost every morning and for the first half hour of the day, I am busting out auditions and I know this is a good habit because I have been. My booking ratio has increased quite a bit on pay to play sites, but it's also increased with my representation. You know, five years ago, 2019, my percentage of revenue generated from my representation was 1%. Now it's up to 12%.
- [16:53]
A
Wow.
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C
And the reason why is because I'm better at auditioning. Because I'm auditioning so much. Yeah, I'm getting my reps, I'm auditioning so much on pay to play sites and I have legacy clients through my direct marketing strategies and of course I have my managers and my agents, but I've just got better. And also my, my mind, my body, my brain, my vocal folds got trained that it's at 7:30, you're in the booth, you're working, you are creatively flowing, you're vocally good, your head's on straight, your eyes are on the prize and you're busting it out. So your body and so the industry will reward what your body does consistently, what your heart, your mind, your eyes do consistently, as long as you're doing it well, because then you're building bad habits. And guess what? You'll get, you'll get some form of recompense for that too. You just may not like it.
- [17:39]
A
I say that all the time about the importance of consistency, that it's. Yes, you've, you've got to have certain tools in order to be able to do this. You've got to have a studio, you've got to have good demos, you've got to have good, good coaching, all that sort of stuff. But what you really need more than anything is consistency and discipline. Like, if you have consistency and discipline, those two things alone can actually overcome other areas where you might be lacking a little bit, because that's what's going to set you apart from many other people that are playing this game right now. They lack one or the other or both consistency and discipline. Are you familiar with all the changes that have taken place with LinkedIn in 2020? Because there's actually been quite a few of them. I recently redid my making money with LinkedIn Masterclass, fully and completely overhauled and updated for 2024. And one of the primary drivers for that was to be able to teach you about all of the different changes to the platform which are going to change the way you use the platform. So if you want to learn how to make money with LinkedIn for your voiceover business in of terms 2024, you're going to want this masterclass. It's going to take away the entire learning curve and give you everything you need in just a little over two hours. The class is available for purchase now and instant viewing. When you go to veopreneur.com, click on the store button and look for making money with LinkedIn. Go to Veopreneur.com, click on the store button and look for making money with LinkedIn. Now back to Sure.
- [19:19]
C
A few years ago, more than a few years ago, the same guy that produced that, the same recording studio that produced my first demo, he's also my comic book partner. And sometime around when I went full time, so maybe 15, 16, 17 years ago, I was in his studio doing a gig and he said something, he's like, tom, you're not the most talented voice actor out there. And I'm like, gee, thanks.
- [19:45]
A
He's like, such a vote of confidence.
- [19:47]
C
Yeah, I know, right? And he's like, but you work hard. You are always trying. You are always, you're studying, you're, you're very consistent. You're very disciplined. And your consistency and your discipline make up for your lack of natural talent.
- [20:05]
A
Yep. You know, man, I've said that all along. I am not the best in the booth by a wide, wide margin, but I will out hustle you. Yep, yep.
- [20:15]
C
And there's something to be said for that. And some people will think, oh, well, you know, only the truly gifted storytellers with the best talent should be the ones that were rewarded the most for their efforts.
- [20:23]
A
No, if that was the case, I wouldn't have made a diamond voice.
- [20:27]
C
I'd be, I'd be working, I'd be like the assistant night manager.
- [20:30]
A
Yeah.
- [20:31]
C
You know, at Burger Burger Burger. Right now, if that was, if that was, if that was the case. But it's, it's not the case. You know, working hard, working smart and being in the game for a long time, getting your reps and also which is a big part of your marketing, your vopreneur stuff is developing long term relationships. Relationships are built on. Well, you know, some people say, what's the most important thing in a marriage? Your average person will say, love. That is wrong. It's wrong. It's not love. Some people say it's communication. And I'll say no. Some people say, well, it's trust. I'll say, you're getting close. It's respect. Respect is the number one thing, the number one key ingredient for every relationship, personal or professional. Because trust and communication is predicated on Respect. Because if you don't respect somebody, you're probably not going to trust them and that means you're not going to communicate with them to be consistent. To be hanging around in the voiceover industry, working ethically, developing relationships, always showing up on time, always doing a good job, always communicating, always respecting the process, the clients, the writing, the time of everybody that's involved in the process that creates respect. If you are. I'd rather be, I'd rather be respected than liked. I mean, my ego wants me to be liked. Of course, both, but, but you know what I mean. It's like, you know that Tom Deere, he's a jerk, but man, I respect him.
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A
Yeah.
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C
It's like, okay, I can live with that.
- [22:13]
A
Yep.
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C
I can live with that.
- [22:14]
A
Yep. No, that's, that's so true. So I want to just. Let's circle back because there's a couple things, a couple more things I want to talk about on the, on the tax side of things. I think we need to explore some of this marketing stuff as well. You know, I think I've heard, you know, a thing or two about that, that marketing game, but one of the myths that I think is out there, and I'm not even sure where it came from, but it's this idea that I don't need an accountant until I'm already making good money. Can you talk about why that is really backwards thinking?
- [22:49]
C
One of the most important skills you need to develop as someone who is self employed in any profession is financial literacy. And who better to teach you financial literacy than somebody that went to school for it and got certified in it and is consistently making money doing it. So you know, TurboTax is fine. If you get one base that one standard salary and it's consistent throughout the year, hopefully you'll get a raise, maybe a Christmas bonus and then you get that one W2 and then you take the standard deduction. Yeah. Maybe a CPA is a waste of your money if you, if that, if that's your, if that's your business model, you know, or your employment status or situation. But if you're self employed, you need to understand how this works. Self employed people like voice actors get paid differently than nine to fivers.
- [23:44]
A
Yep.
- [23:45]
C
And they get taxed differently than nine to fiverrs. Because if you know also, and if you're a nine to fiver, like if you're not a nine to fiver and you're self employed and you're not incorporated, for example, you're paying self employment tax, you're paying the payroll tax of Social Security and FICA and unemployment and all that. As both an employer, as the employee, you need to know that, you need to understand that. Which is one of the reasons why a good financial advisor, someone who's financially literate would say, no, you're better off staying as a sole proprietor. No, you should go C Corp. No, you should go S Corp. No, you should go llc. Or you should do, or you should do something else. Also, like when I got my first living, breathing CPA, which was 1997, which was the second year that I was doing voiceover, I, we trained each other in how to do my taxes.
- [24:42]
A
Yep.
- [24:42]
C
You know, he had a lot to teach me, but also I had some things to teach him based on my experiences and you know, how I was working with clients and you know, exploring other deductions and you know, retirement accounts where, you know, some people just have a pension and they don't have to think about it or their company supplies a 401k and they don't have to think about it. I've had to build my, all of my IRAs, my SEP IRA, my HSAs. I've had to put, put that together not all by myself, but with the help of a good CPA with someone who is financially literate. So yeah, it may cost $100. I mean, we're paying a lot more than that now because we're filing jointly. We're both self employed. We throw like a ream of 1099s at our CPA. There's a lot of bells and whistles and expenses and deductions and whatnot. But it's worth the money because also you should be able to write off that because you are subcontracting. You're subcontracting. You're outsourcing work to a cpa just as you would outsource audio editing to an editor or, you know, Rob Siglim Paglia to read that contract for you. Those are all. Or someone who's building a website for you or helping you with your social media. These are all people that you're outsourcing stuff to. Those are all tax deductions. So it's, I can't, cannot under state the importance of developing financial literacy as early as you can in your career by working with a competent financial advisor.
- [26:06]
A
One of the most expensive seasons of your voiceover business is the early season of your business. When you're starting out, you're putting out money for a microphone, for an interface, for a computer, your website, your domain, your Email, you're getting a logo designed and you're getting business cards printed and you're doing your coaching, you're taking classes, you're getting demos produced. Like you're just forking over cash like crazy. You know, I did an episode recently with Patrick Kirchner. We talked about, you know, 15 to 20,000 in startup costs. Really easy.
- [26:37]
C
Yeah.
- [26:37]
A
You want an accountant when that's going on, because in all likelihood, a good percentage of all of that can actually be written off and you can actually operate your business potentially at a loss, which can actually help you out. You know, again, coming back to making money versus keeping money.
- [26:56]
C
Right.
- [26:56]
A
I think that's where a lot of voice actors miss the mark because they think that they don't need the accountant until all the money's coming in. And I'm saying, no, no, no, get the accountant in the beginning when all the money's going out.
- [27:06]
C
Absolutely. And also, you know, you can get, for the first few years, you're probably going to take a loss. But at least in the United States, if you take a loss too many times in a row of a certain amount, then IRS is going to classify you as a hobby. So your voice over career may be over, which a CPA can help you navigate that. Also, you know, you buy a 416, do you write that off as a business expense up front, the full cost the year that you buy it, or do you go with the whole depreciation thing?
- [27:36]
A
Yep.
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C
You know, and the answer is different for different people. You know, hey, what's the square footage of the desk that I'm sitting at and the booth that I talk in? I can write off a percentage of that on my rent or my mortgage. Did you know that?
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A
No.
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C
Your CPA does. So there's so many different things that they can do to help you out. Because the more of a refund that you get in the beginning while you're taking that loss, the more you can now reinvest it in your voiceover business for continuing education and marketing or going to that voiceover conference or upgrading your mic or any of a myriad of other things.
- [28:11]
A
Yeah, I mean, the conference you said there, right? Are you flying to Atlanta? Did you buy a ticket to VO Atlanta? Are you staying in a hotel at VO Atlanta? Are you eating meals while you're at VO Atlanta? All of these things are potentially write offs, which is why it's so important to have an accountant. So I'm curious what your thoughts are. Obviously, I think that we want somebody that is geographically, you know, because Rules vary state to state, country to country, etc. So you want somebody who's familiar with the tax, with how everything applies in your state or in your region. But do you need a voiceover specific accountant, voiceover specific?
- [28:48]
C
Not necessarily. But there are CPAs who have extensive experience if not specialized in just working with people who are self employed.
- [28:59]
A
Yeah.
- [28:59]
C
So that's why it was such an easy, such an easy thing to do just to, for me to just start filing jointly with my wife and going to her cpa because she's been going with that CPA who specializes in self employed people here in New York City for 25 years. So. Yes. But again, like, like I said, when I started working with my CPA in 1997, it was in suburban New Jersey. He had limited experience. I was going with him because my mom has been going to him for years. So it just like, okay, we trust this guy. He knows what he's doing. So like I said, I had to train him a little bit. He need to educate himself a little bit. And there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But all things being equal, you'd want somebody who is specialized in self employed.
- [29:46]
A
Right.
- [29:46]
C
So if you're, if you live in the New York metropolitan area or the LA metropolitan area, Miami, Dallas, Chicago.
- [29:52]
A
Yep.
- [29:52]
C
Toronto. Finding somebody who specialized in that is probably not going to be terribly difficult. But, but I do have a website that I'm going to tell you about. It's for the national association of enrolled agents.
- [30:06]
A
Okay.
- [30:07]
C
Www.naea.org. that's naea.org. you can search for financial advisors through that website. So you can, you can geolocate, you can do targeted searches and there are reviews there and you can also find out what exactly are they certified in, what do they specialize in? The best way. That's a good way. The best way is to ask your fellow voice actors who live in your geographic area. Word of mouth is, you know, it's tried and true for mechanics and you know, and CPAs, you know, who do you work with, who do you recommend? And I've never heard of a CPA who's turned down business or who has been ungrateful for, for one of their clients recommending them to somebody. So that's like, that's the single best way. But if you can't find anybody through word of mouth, using the NAEA website can be a big help.
- [31:00]
A
Okay. And we'll make sure. I'll get that put into the show notes. I wrote that one down. My accountant is not a voiceover accountant didn't really know anything about voiceover until he started working with me. But he was familiar with small business and kind of the self employed side of things. And so that was a big difference. Let me tell you something. You want to know how the rich stay rich? It's because they figured out the tax code. Like, let's be honest, like, that's, that's what's going on. And so figure this out because you could probably be keeping more of your money than you realize. And, and that's a big part of the game. That's, that's how you build wealth. That's how you grow your business. That's how you have money for that next reinvestment or wherever is, is figuring some of this stuff out. So on the marketing side, let's go there now. Cause I, I know you know a thing or two about this. There's, there's, there's guys out there that are talking about email marketing and social media marketing and all this boring stuff. You know, there's some guy that's done a thousand podcasts on all of that stuff. So I'm curious to hear. Put those aside because everybody's talking about those. Put aside email, put aside social media. What should we be Looking at in 2024 in the opinion of Tom Deere, the VO strategist for some, some marketing ideas that are, that are a little bit different than what we've always done?
- [32:23]
C
Well, this, everybody hates me when I say this, but pay to play sites.
- [32:29]
A
Okay. Pay to play site, expand.
- [32:31]
C
Okay. So, and again, and Mark and I have had this conversation many times and yes, I, I do teach direct marketing. I use direct marketing strategies. But also I am aware of the realities and intricacies of the voiceover industry as currently constituted. You know, wait five minutes, it may, it may change also based on where you are in your voiceover journey. So this is advice that I give to a lot of my students, is that pay to play sites can be a great marketing tool. How can that be a great marketing tool? Well, the single most important skill that a voice actor can have is project management. Project management is everything that happens between the moment that the casting notice hits your inbox and the moment that the check clears. If you can't or won't master project management, you are useless as a voice actor. And I don't care what the source of the casting notice is. If you don't know what it's time to do, what is what you need to do when it's time to press the red Button. You're just a useless voice actor. I don't care how talented you are, your talent will book you your first gig with a client. Your project management skills will book you your next gig with that same client.
- [33:49]
A
That's good.
- [33:50]
C
Okay.
- [33:51]
A
Yep.
- [33:52]
C
So why do I say all this is a marketing tool? Because, and Mark knows this, there's a difference between value promise and value delivery. Both are integral parts of your marketing strategies and tactics. Value promise is, hey, this new restaurant has opened up in town. You know, it's a Mexican restaurant and there's like, you know, the, there's, you know, there's little flags outside and there's a, you know, a dancing tamale and buy one, get one margaritas for the first 50 guests or whatever. And that's all value promise, right?
- [34:23]
A
Yep.
- [34:24]
C
Then you walk into the place and you see how long it takes you to get a table and it's the water glass crusty. And what does a bathroom look like? How long does it take for your food to come out? Is the food hot? Is it, Was it ordered correctly? Is it fresh? What happens if there is a problem? How do they handle the problem? That's value delivery. This is the thing that most voice actors don't. It doesn't even occur to them that value delivery is in some ways, well, you can't have one without the other. You can't deliver a great product if no one knows you exist. But what's the point of marketing to anybody if you don't have a good product?
- [35:01]
A
Can't deliver the product. Yep.
- [35:02]
C
Can't deliver the product.
- [35:04]
A
Got to be able to do what you say you can do.
- [35:05]
C
So developing your skills, your project management skills on a pay to play site will go miles and miles, miles towards you. Developing your value delivery skills. The other thing that you develop when you're on a pay to play site is your communication skills, how to talk to people and also how to listen to people. When you book gigs on pay to play sites, this is an exercise that I strongly recommend. I do this on voice 1, 2, 3. I look at all the gigs that I got shortlisted on or liked. You get shortlisted on Voice 1. On voices.com, you get liked on Voice 1, 2, 3. Regularly I go look at the last 10 or 20 gigs that I got booked on or that I got liked on and then I go look at that casting notice and I look for the keywords in the casting notice. What were the keywords in the casting notice that got it into my inbox, which I booked. So, for example, One of my number one keywords is upbeat. That's a big one. So guess what term I should use in my marketing materials? I'm a friendly, energetic, upbeat guy next door voice actor. So when you're crafting your direct marketing emails or you're building your social media profile and content and you're creating your website, you need to know what the industry is telling you. I don't give a crap what you want to do in voiceover. I don't care. Because the industry doesn't care. They care what you can book. You may not be good at what you like and you may not like what you're good at. That happens all the time.
- [36:47]
A
So true.
- [36:48]
C
So true all the time. I thought when I came into the voiceover industry that I needed to sound like James Earl Jones and do commercials. Do I sound like James Earl Jones?
- [36:57]
A
Not quite. There's still hope, but.
- [37:01]
C
Yeah, but I don't hope anymore. I used to hope, and now I don't want to be James Earl Jones.
- [37:06]
A
You find your niche and you build it and you own.
- [37:08]
C
And my niche. Right, and my niche, the industry told me my niche was elearning and explainers and corporate and medical. But guess what? Last year was my highest percentage of voiceover revenue being commercials. Why? Because I've just been getting better at it. I've been getting my reps in even more reps because I used to disqualify myself from commercials because I can't do them like James Earl Jones. And my commercial sound, my elearning sound, does not translate to my commercial sound most of the time, and vice versa. But being in this industry since 1996 and having the ability to listen to myself and listen to the industry, listen to me, I have figured out, whoa, what's my sound? What's my money? What are my money voices? I can't do sportscaster. I just can't. I can't. You know, I get these auditions for sportscaster. I cringe every time I try and I sound. I'm just like, ah, jeez. You know what I mean? And is it worth for me to get training to just to be able to do sportscaster type auditions? No. I get so much work doing so many other things. So, yes, marketing. Your key to marketing in 2024 is get on pay to play sites, spend as much as you can, audition as much as you can, and use the let and use those algorithms of those pay to play sites to tell you what your marketability is. And then you could take that marketability and use it to get representation and use it in your direct marketing. All three of the portals, representation, online casting sites and direct marketing can and should be synergistic. People keep putting them in these buckets and then passing judgment on them. You should never use casting sites. They're only for bottom feeders. You should only use direct marketing or I want to do cartoons. I'm only going to work with agents, so I'm just going to spend my whole time beating my head against the wall of agents doors. This is not conducive to long term healthy sustainability in the voiceover industry. You need to understand how these portals work, why they work and how they can work in, in in a synergistic way. I mean I use direct marketing strategies on pay to play sites. I get a gig from a client on voice 1, 2, 3. 90% of voice123 voice seekers take the the gig off site because they don't want to eat the 9% fee for going through Voice 123 escrow system, which is. I don't blame them, that's fine. But if they are outside of it now, they might as well have come to you through a cold email. Now you. Because now you can sustain your relationship through your direct marketing practices. And I use, there's a messaging system so I can message any of my clients that I've booked who stayed on voice 1, 2, 3 and I can do direct marketing campaigns with them saying hey, here's a new demo. Oh, here's a new sample that I just did in the same exact way that you would do it outside of the voice 1, 2, 3 or other pay to play ecosystem. Stop judging portals. Stop sticking them in buckets and judging them. They can and should. And do they work better when you use them together in a synergistic, holistic way?
- [40:05]
A
I think it's somewhere along the line and I don't. Maybe it was when I got kicked off of voices.com years ago for calling them out for bad practices. But somewhere along the line I got painted as the anti casting site guy, which I've always thought was funny because I literally have a module in voiceover marketing playbook that talks about the value of online casting. Like why would that module be there if I was the anti online casting site guy? I think all of these different tools have a place and I think one thing that you touched on that I wrote down that I think is often overlooked and it's something that I talk about all the time, is following the data because the data will give you clues. Yes, and when people talk to me about their online casting in particular, the very first thing I ask them is, have you noticed any similarities or common themes between what you're booking and what you're getting shortlisted, slash, liked for? And nine out of ten times they've never even looked. And that is such a missed opportunity if you are not sitting down and looking for those common threads. Like you said, upbeat was yours. You consistently saw that word coming up. I'm telling you, do the same thing. What are the consistent words that come up? Is it conversational, is it authoritative, is it a particular description, description of this, you know, we're looking for this type of read, or do you consistently get a certain celebrity reference, whatever it is, find those things, because that is going to give you clues for how to fill out your profile better. Getting different, you know, getting better keywords on your profile. That is going to give you clues for copy that you can include on your website. That is going to give you clues for content that you could create for social media. That is going to give you clues for things that you could put into email marketing. Because those are the indicators that you said. The industry is saying, look, this is what we think you're good at because you keep seeing those things coming up. And I just feel like that's one of the areas where people miss out, is they're not paying attention to the data. And it's not that hard to go back through your bookings or your shortlists on a casting site and look for some of those things.
- [42:22]
C
Yeah, the spreadsheet that I have been using religiously since, you know, the mid-90s, has columns and one of the columns is, you know, I have like a little code RE for representation, OC for online casting, sm. I've evolved DM from direct marketing to SM for self marketing because there's direct and indirect marketing. And I try to break it down a little further than that. So like, if I cold email somebody, it's. It's direct marketing. If someone finds me on, finds my website on Google and says, hey, we'd like to book you, that's indirect marketing. But I'm like, you know, I'm splitting hairs, but also the genre. So what genres am I booking? What portals am I booking? And how did, how did that ultimately come to me? So for me, and Tommy loves his spreadsheets and he loves his formulas. So every time I enter a new line in my spreadsheet, I've got a little, a little report, live report on the side and it tells me exactly what Percentage of my voiceover money is coming from which genre and which portal that it's coming through. So I know exactly how my marketing and my auditioning efforts are doing. So data is. I mean, it's a. It's. Everything is a numbers game. Follow the. Because you said before, follow the data, follow the tech. But, you know, use the data. Use the tech to your advantage. There is no reason why you can't go to veostrategist.com, subscribe to my blog. It's horrible, blatant sell. And then you get a free zipload file, a zip file of all these free downloads. And one of those is those expenses sheets with those formulas. And you just type everything in. I've done it all for you. You type it all in and it spits out your cost benefit analysis right there for you. And it's free. And you do that. I guarantee you will make more money as a voice actor because you will not know just what more to do in your voiceover business on a marketing level, but what not to do on a marketing level. Because I'm sure you've seen, you've heard you yourself as a voice actor, has had this challenge. But it's like, when do I stop blogging? When do I stop using Instagram? When do I stop using it this way and try using it that way? Well, there are numbers that can tell you those things.
- [44:35]
A
There was a probably a five or six year stretch where I literally branded myself as the explainer guy. Because I bet you 75% of the voiceovers that I was doing was explainer. Like almost every day of the week, it felt like I was in the studio voicing explainers, which is never what I set out to do. But at the time, using online casting, that. And when explainers were first starting to become a thing, I just booked constantly. And so I was like, all right. So I just, I rolled with it and I rebranded as that. And I built the website around it, built the landing page around it. And so now I was booking it through casting, I was booking it through clients, I was booking it through referrals, I was booking it through people finding my website because I had rebranded myself that way. And then things shifted. I don't know if it was me, if it was my voice, if it was my style. You know, I get older, things change a little bit, whatever. But then I noticed, you know, I'm starting to book a lot more elearning. And so then I doubled down on the E learning genre.
- [45:33]
C
I'm sorry, I can tell you exactly what happened with explainers, Because I had the same exact curve. The exact same curve. 2012, right? 2013.
- [45:41]
A
Yeah, it was around that area.
- [45:43]
C
Yeah. Yeah, that's. It's funny because I'll tell you the. I'll tell you my explainer story. So, got back from, you know, fafcon, the unconference of song and story, and Amy Snively, our golden goddess of fafcon, you know, gave us all homework and exercises, and one was to explore a new genre. So I was like, okay, I don't know, maybe what I want to do this or that and the other thing. And then I started noticing all these casting notices, started having the word explainer in it, and I didn't know what it meant. So I reached out to my webmaster at the time. I said, hey, could you do me a favor? Do a little research on what explainer videos are and more importantly, which male voice actors are marketing themselves as an explainer video. As explainer video narrator. This is 2012. Or 20. This is late 2011, I think toward 2012. And they came back and they told me what explainers are. And that's when I realized that I had already narrated 35 explainer videos, but I didn't know what they were. Some of them I put in the commercial bucket, Some I put in the corporate bucket.
- [46:42]
A
I just hadn't called them that yet.
- [46:43]
C
Right. And do you know how many male voice actors were marketing themselves as explainer video narrators in 2012? 1.
- [46:50]
A
I was going to say at the time that I was doing it. There was one other guy that would come up anytime you did a search. I can't even remember what his name was.
- [46:57]
C
I don't remember his name either, but he was.
- [46:59]
A
He was. He. He was like the other voice on every single explainer video that seemed to be existing on the Internet at the time.
- [47:05]
C
So I have my webmaster build an explainer page on tomdeer.com I took all those 35 samples and cobbled together an explainer demo. And then I did some research look for explainer video production companies of which I didn't realize there were a whole bunch of ones that specialize in it. And then I sent out a mailing, and then I just got buried in explainer videos.
- [47:25]
A
Yep.
- [47:26]
C
Buried in them. And what happened? Too many voice actors came in. Everybody started training as an explainer video narrator. Everybody had a demo. Everybody started doing their same stupid direct marketing strategies. And then the. The. The industry got saturated. That's the funny thing about it, too.
- [47:41]
A
Was When I was in the prime of booking explainers, which, like I said, it was the. The single biggest line item as far as genres of voiceover, for me, I didn't even have an explainer demo because at that point it was. The genre was so new, nobody was creating them. So I was literally, every six months I was just making a demo from the projects that I was voicing so that it was always refreshed, it was always current. But I rode that wave for probably five or six years, and I wouldn't have done that if I hadn't been paying attention to the clues. If I hadn't been paying attention to. These are the keywords, these are the descriptors that they use for this explainer genre. You know, they're constantly looking for this particular type of read. And then I just built a marketing strategy around that. And then when the shift happened for me, where it started to go more into elearning, then I did the same thing and started building strategies around that and focusing my business in that direction. But it comes from paying attention to the clues and the data points that are out there. And there's so much information to be gleaned from what you're booking and what you're getting shortlisted for. And that, to me is one of the biggest advantages of online casting, is because it gives you so much more of a larger data pool to draw from to go back and find all of that information.
- [49:00]
C
One of the most important skills to have as a voice actor is to be a good listener. And I don't just mean taking direction when you're in a recording session, it's listening to the industry, not just with your ears, but with your eyes and your mind, because there's lots and lots of data out there that can tell you so much, can inform you again of what to do or what not to do, how to do it or not to, and why you should do it or why you shouldn't do it. It's there for you. It's there for you.
- [49:31]
A
So earlier you talked about. We were talking about consistency and the importance of consistency. You mentioned, every day I'm in the booth, at the same time I'm there at 7:30, I'm doing my auditions. That's the very first thing that I did. One of the most common questions that I get asked is, how the heck do you manage to do all the things that you do? Because obviously I've got a lot going on between the voiceover, the coaching, the podcast, the live streams, all this sort of stuff. And I Know you, you are doing multiple things as well. So talk a little bit about time management and other than you're. You're in the booth every morning at 7:30 and holding on to that is you're. Is your calendar a series of time blocks where you're consistently just working on this part of your business at the same time every day? Do you base it off of different priorities? How do you plot out what your day looks like so that you can get done everything that you've got to get done in a given day or a given week?
- [50:23]
C
Fantastic question mark. The macro of it is research and preparation when it comes to writing your annual business plan and then writing your monthly action plan. So my best time management tool is this monthly action plan that I have here, which is another free template you can get if you subscribe to the VO store.
- [50:42]
A
We'll link it in the show notes.
- [50:44]
C
Yes, thank you, sir.
- [50:44]
A
Or I'll edit this whole part out. No, we'll definitely link it. We'll definitely link it in the show notes.
- [50:50]
C
That's fine. I'm way too hawky this time. I'm on your show anyway, so I think I've got some comeuppance. So it runs twofold with the macro of knowing everything I need to do this month and then reconcile that with the stuff I need to do today. The stuff I need to do today are auditions first thing in the morning. It's. I can't think of a day where I haven't had at least one audition to do in the morning. And then after lunch there's usually like another batch of them coming from client regulars or representation or just another round of online casting site auditions. I. It's a lot about understanding where are you when and when are you at your best physically, vocally?
- [51:41]
A
Yep.
- [51:41]
C
And knowing when you're at your best creatively. This can be one of your most valuable time management tools. Back when I was a lazy bachelor, I would be like, oh, I can't audition before 10am My voice isn't warmed up. I just didn't feel like doing auditions before 10am you want to know what vocal warmups I do now?
- [52:00]
A
Stop convicting me, Tom.
- [52:01]
C
Sorry.
- [52:02]
A
Making me feel guilty.
- [52:03]
C
Sorry, am I making you feel guilty or are you making you feel guilty?
- [52:09]
A
Oh, I am so not a morning person.
- [52:12]
C
Well, I mean, when I decided to be a full time voice actor, I decided my alarm would go off at 8am every morning. And it did because I worked nights and weekends for my entire adult life until the time I went full time as a voice act. So my alarm went off at 8am so that's also another one of the most important time management tools is make sure your alarm goes off at the same time every day and that you get a good night's sleep. That's your biggest time management tool. Macro is knowing all the tasks you need to do every year, every month, every week and every every day, understanding when you're at your best vocally and when you're at your best creatively. So vocally, you know, some people aren't at their best in the morning. Well, then figure out some vocal exercises, drink tea, hydrate, do whatever you gotta do, you know, and for creatively, for crafting your direct marketing emails, for creating your social media content, when are your juices flowing the most? So take a few weeks and log when you're feeling the most motivated to do stuff and when you are the most effective, when you're doing stuff, stuff. And then take that and go, okay, I'm vocally at my best at, you know, two in the afternoon. Okay, well that's not ideal. But if that's when you're vocally at your best, maybe save your most challenging auditions for that time, you know what I mean? As opposed to like the laid back millennial conversational thing, maybe stuff that requires a little more, a little more intensity, you save for that. But you're at your best crafting social media posts at 9 o' clock at night when you're binging Netflix and you're just on your phone. Maybe you're getting creative inspiration from the show that you're watching and it's informing your social media content or not. You know, that's fine. Figure that out, develop, figure out what works best for you mentally, physically, and you know, creatively, energetically, emotionally, psychologically, organizationally and turn that into like the scaffold of your day in which you can kind of drape the day on it. Because am I at my desk at 7:30 every morning to 8:00 clock doing five to eight auditions? No, you know, sometimes I'm up at 5 because the cat woke me up. You know, sometimes, you know, sometimes I had trouble sleeping the night before because of the cat. So I'm not at the, at the booth until nine. You know, that's fine. But knowing that like I've got these like bars that I can hit vocally, creatively, you know, I also like Tom Deere, needs to have his balance balance checkbook balanced. He needs to have his credit card bills paid and he has to need to he needs to have all of his invoices either generated or reconciled before I can do anything creative because I will get distracted.
- [54:56]
A
Yep.
- [54:57]
C
You know, so learning what your limitations are, what your, what your, what your physical and mental preferences are, and what your physical and mental limitations are, and then just, just work your day around that, that's what's worked for me. So my day is not your day, but you got to find the day that makes you be the best version of you that you can be physically, mentally, emotionally, creatively, psychologically.
- [55:20]
A
It's so key. I think it's funny because I think there's a perception, and I've probably partly created this and not intentionally, that I work 24 hours a day because I post very often late in the evening, I'll be in the office, or sometimes through the night or whatever, I'll post. And. And so people just have this perception that, gosh, this guy just goes 24 hours a day, 7 days a week or whatever. But no, the reality is a lot of days I'm out of the office by 2 or 3 o' clock because I go pick up my kids from school. And then I, you know, we'll hang out with my kids a little bit after school or, you know, make dinner with the family or whatever. But then lots of times I'll come back into the office at 9 o' clock at night after they're gone to bed or they're winding down their day or whatever. Because I just figured out a long time ago that that's when I tend to be at my best for creative flow. So if I'm working on a course, you know, working on a coaching thing that I'm doing or something like that, that's happening between 9pm and 3am and it's not specifically because I love working from 9pm till 3am, but it's because I know that I could do the whole thing between 9pm and 3am because that's just when I hit that flow versus if I tried to force it out of myself during the day, I could literally spend an entire week of, of weekdays trying to get the same amount of work done. And so figuring out what your flow, you're figuring out your rhythms is so key to all of this. And that's. Everybody wants the one size fits all. Well, what do you do? You're successful. So if you do this, if I do that, then I'll be successful too. And. And I just don't think it works that way.
- [56:51]
C
No, it can't. Because we're all, we're all little snowflakes. We're all, we're all different and we have different habits and, you know, you know, we have genetic, we have physical, we have mental, we have cultural. You know, all these things that are pushing and pulling us in different directions. You need to, you need to honor that. Like, my workday is roughly 7:30 to 4. That's roughly my work. My work day. And I take an hour for lunch from 12 to 1. I take a lunch and I take, I take regular breaks. I walk around, you know, I stretch my legs. I'll have a snack, you know, I'll hang out with the cat or whatever. And then I'll be like, okay. And then I get back here. Of course, I've got all, I've got podcast interviews and I've got sessions with voiceover clients and I've got sessions with my students, which kind of, you know, make a wonderful, lovely fabric test. You know, tapestry that is, that makes every day different and special, you know, but finding out what works for you and what doesn't work for you, but knowing you got to get all this crap done. And if there's certain things that you just absolutely just are vehemently opposed to doing, you better learn how to outsource it.
- [57:53]
A
Yep, 100%. So we've touched on this a couple of times. I understand that maybe you've got a website where we could go where possibly there's a resource or two that we might be able to download or something about that. Why don't you fill in the blanks on this veo strategist thing? Tom, what can we do and what can we find out and what goodies are waiting there for us?
- [58:15]
C
Well, there's some stuff. There's some stuff. All right, well, I encourage everyone to go to veestrategist.com before you do that. Go to tomdir.com check me out as a voice actor, because unless you're a Marilyn Whisner or a handful of other gifted voiceover coaches, you need to be a working voice actor to be effective as a coach and not just a performance coach. Because I'm not a performance coach. I'm a business and marketing consultant. You know, you need to understand exactly what's going on in the industry. So I encourage you to vet me@tomdeer.com, go to YouTube and check out some testimonials from current and former students as well. Book that free 15 minute consult with me. We could talk about anything that you want. Check out my VO how to video library. Which I just lowered all the prices. All videos are now 20 bucks. Two of them each month are worth or cost only five bucks to rent. It's all streaming. I also have a video subscription club which for 20 bucks, six month commitment, you can watch all. I think I'm up to 27 how to videos. You can watch them as many times as you want. And then there's my mentorship program, of course, which has a whole bunch of benefits where I can help you navigate the voiceover industry in the long term. So I encourage you to go to veostrategist.com and check all that stuff out.
- [59:31]
A
I cannot stay this enough and people probably get tired of me saying things like this, but it just needs to be said over and over and over again. You can go out and buy yourself the top of the line studio bricks or whisper room and you can stick your Apollo in there with your U87 and your 416 and you can get signed by Atlas or CESD or whoever. And you could, you could have worked with the best coaches and produced the best demos and all of that stuff. But if you do not have at least a basic fundamental understanding of how to run a business, you are going to struggle all of those things are not going to produce the return on investment that they could otherwise produce if you do not have a basic understanding of how to run a business. And that was the thing that drew me to you in the first place all those years ago when I finally, finally. Because we always seem to be competing with each other on the schedule. Yes. I finally got to sit in on one of your sessions and I was like, I remember coming out and I think I said it to you that like, I feel like people should have to take this session before they're allowed to record their demos. Like, you need to know this and understand this. And if you don't know and understand this business side of things, don't even bother with all this other stuff yet because you're just gonna struggle. And, and, and I mean it when I say that you are running a business. And I'm grateful that there's guys like you that are out there that get that and are willing to teach that side of things because it's not sexy. Right. Look, I know that when I'm competing, I know when I'm competing against Josepriano at VO Atlanta, nobody's coming to my session. I, I get that and I love Joe and I understand that. But just know that at some point you're going to need the things that we have to offer. You're going to need these resources that Tom has to offer in this type of consulting and and strategizing that he has to offer because those are the things, those are the fundamental building blocks. They're going to get the whisper room working, that are going to get that Neumann making money, that are going to get those agents going even in further for you. So thank you for being around to teach that.
- [61:55]
C
It's my pleasure. And thanks again for having me back on to share and commiserate and teach your loyal group of amazing voice actors.
- [62:07]
A
I told you you were going to get a business masterclass in this episode and I hope that's exactly how you feel. Tom knows his stuff and understanding the business side of voiceover is absolutely essential to your success as a voice actor. So hopefully you were taking lots of notes and picking up some handy and helpful tips from this episode. If you did learn something, how about you let us know. Take a picture or make a reel and post it in your Instagram stories. And make sure to tag me, arc Scott and tag Tom. It's eertom. That's E R E T O m. Tag us both. Let us know. We would love to see what you have learned from this episode. Thanks so much for listening and I'll catch you on the next one.
- [62:54]
B
The Everyday veopreneur Podcast available everywhere. Find podcasts are given away for free. Mostly.
- [63:01]
D
We think you have a great website, right? Well, make sure you host it at some place that doesn't suck. Hey, it's Brad Newman, fellow VO pro for 28 years and owner of upper levelhosting.com People ask why us? And that's simple. We make it easy, respect your time, save you money, and just make all the magic happen. You don't need to know all the tech stuff. When it comes to hosting your website, we got you. Ask around. Tens of thousands of client interactions later and six years of amazing customer service and not a single negative complaint. Ever. Upper levelhosting.com.
- [63:34]
B
And that's a wrap. Thanks for hanging in. Thanks for hanging out. Want more Veopreneur goodness? Jump online@veopreneur.com.