Podcast Summary: Everything Belongs – "Entering the World of Another with Omid Safi"

Podcast: Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward
Host: Center for Action and Contemplation
Episode Date: January 31, 2025
Featured Guests: Richard Rohr, Omid Safi
Episode Topic: Entering the World of Another – The story of St. Francis and the Sultan of Egypt, plus contemplative dialogue across religious traditions

Overview

This episode dives into Father Richard Rohr’s exploration of St. Francis of Assisi’s meeting with the Sultan of Egypt during the Fifth Crusade, using it as a springboard for a rich dialogue on interfaith engagement, loving critique within one’s own tradition, and the necessity of radical love in times of conflict. The conversation expands with guest Brother Omid Safi, a prominent Islamic scholar and Sufi mystic, illuminating how love, poetry, and curiosity foster transformative encounters across traditions. Throughout, listeners are invited to reimagine religious difference as opportunity for humble connection and shared action for peace.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Setting the Stage: Why This Story Matters

• Francis and the Sultan as Icon: The episode’s starting point is the story—often depicted in iconography—of Francis of Assisi crossing battle lines to meet Sultan Malik al-Kāmil during the Crusades, not as a would-be converter, but as a peacemaker and prophet of nonviolence ([02:08], [08:01]).
• Historical Debates: There is nuanced discussion of how history has interpreted Francis’s motives and the larger context of the Fifth Crusade ([02:08]–[03:42], [17:56]).
• Challenging ‘Enemy’ Boundaries: St. Francis’ boldness is highlighted—he speaks out both against violence in his own tradition and across perceived enemy lines, modeling interreligious and intra-religious critique ([03:42]–[05:46], [14:00]–[14:53]).

Richard Rohr on Interfaith Learning & Humility

• Early Interfaith Encounters: Rohr reflects on his upbringing in a “Catholic ghetto” and first learning from people outside his tradition, challenging his view of Christian exclusivity ([09:05]–[10:49]).
• Vatican II and Respect for Other Faiths: Rohr explains the significance of the Church acknowledging value in other religions (Nostra Aetate), advocating for honoring other traditions’ paths to God ([11:07]).
• Judaism as Christianity’s Root: Rohr stresses that Christianity cannot forget its Jewish origins, advocating for respect toward the broader tapestry of religious tradition ([12:36]–[13:33]).
• Prophetic Critique: Rohr draws parallels between Francis, Jesus, and the Hebrew prophets, emphasizing their focus on collective societal critique versus individual blame ([24:05]–[25:46]).
• Nonviolence and the Gospel: Rohr laments that the nonviolent message of Jesus was largely absent in Western Christianity until later movements (Quakers, Mennonites) and notes Francis as a prophetic outlier ([19:40]–[21:34]).

The Encounter: Beyond Conversion, Toward Authentic Dialogue

• Respect and Transformation: Francis did not seek to convert the Sultan, and neither did the Sultan attempt to convert Francis. Mutual respect, humility, and authentic dialogue are the heart of their encounter ([22:53], [30:47]–[32:02]).
• True Mark of Discipleship: Rohr insists that “what makes you a follower of Jesus [is] that you have a heart as big as Jesus, not that you join the Jesus club” ([32:02]).

Notable Quotes

• “If I tell them, they will consider me a fool; if I am silent, I cannot escape my conscience.” – St. Francis (quoted by Paul Swanson, [16:10])
• “Unless we want to cut out 2/3 of the Bible, we better honor other religions.” – Richard Rohr ([12:36])

Entering the World of Another: The Conversation with Omid Safi

Naming the Sacred in Encounter

• 'John' as Soul: Omid introduces the Persian affectionate suffix ‘John,’ denoting soul or life-force, as a posture of meeting one another soul-to-soul ([37:12]–[38:42]).
• "Soul Encounters": Inviting listeners to see all encounters as potentially sacred, echoing the Francis–Sultan story.

Radical Love in the Islamic Tradition

• Essence of the Divine: “The path of radical love is the path that leads to God as well as the path that God walks” ([40:26]).
  • God Is Love Embodied: Omid makes clear that love is not only at the heart of Islam but is the essence of God—all true religion will move toward this universal love ([40:26]–[42:38]).
  • No Monopoly on Love: “Religion is not the game of Monopoly… if you land on love, you don’t get to charge people rent.” ([41:39])

Poetry as Bridge and Medicine

• Poetry as Language of the Heart: Poetic language, especially in Rumi’s tradition, gives access to transformative experiences that logic alone cannot reach. Poetry can help navigate deeply-rooted interpersonal and interreligious conflict ([49:41]–[55:35]).
• The Power of Story and Art: Omid challenges the idea of ‘religious conflict,’ reframing most violence as ego-driven cosplay that co-opts religion for less holy aims ([50:57]).
• Curiosity as Mystical Love: “Curiosity is one of the best expressions of mystical love” ([56:17]). Approaching other traditions with awe and receptivity rather than certainty opens the way to genuine transformation.

Interfaith Encounter as Archetype

• Sacred Myth v. Narrow History: These stories are meaningful as archetypes, not merely as historical facts ([56:17]–[63:33]).
• Recognition Across Traditions: The community gathered at Rumi’s funeral (Muslims, Christians, Jews) all see the sacred in him, but feel no need to relinquish their own particularities ([61:00]).

Notable Quotes

• “What if God is not hidden at all, but is hiding in plain sight?” – Omid Safi ([43:44])
• “Look, love mingles with lovers. See spirit mingling with body… look at how this and that are mingled.” – Rumi, translated by Omid Safi ([68:17])

Living Nonduality: From Theory to Practice

• Mingling Love: Nondual consciousness as taught by Richard Rohr and echoed in Rumi—love dissolves binaries of enemy/friend, this/that, sacred/profane ([68:17]–[72:31]).
• Hospitality and Humility: Rooted in radical amazement and a willingness to receive, these encounters are the ground of both social action and contemplative practice.

Hope Amid Exhaustion

• Invitation Despite Tiredness: Omid closes by reciting Rumi: “I know you’re tired. Come, this is the way.” The path of love remains open, especially in seasons of heart-weary fatigue ([73:38]–[74:41]).

Practical Guidance for Listeners

• Invitation to the Path: The hosts encourage listeners to see every encounter as a chance to walk the path of radical love, echoing Omid’s reminder: “May we all, no matter how exhausted we are, find the strength and the courage to keep on walking on the path of love and keep inviting others back to it.” ([78:41]–[79:37])

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Timestamp | Segment | |-----------|------------------------------------------------| | 00:00–06:09 | Introduction & context for the Francis–Sultan story | | 08:01–12:36 | Richard Rohr on encountering other faith traditions | | 17:56–21:34 | Analysis of the Fifth Crusade and Francis’ prophecy | | 30:47–34:19 | The heart of Christian discipleship and dialogue | | 36:34–45:11 | Introduction of Omid Safi / The meaning of ‘John’ and radical love | | 49:41–55:35 | Poetry, language, and the illusion of “religious conflict” | | 56:17–63:33 | Curiosity, myth, and the archetypal interfaith encounter | | 68:17–74:41 | Mingling love, nondualism, exhaustion, and the invitation to radical love | | 75:31–79:37 | Silence, practical takeaways, and encouragement for listeners |

Memorable Quotes

“If I tell them, they will consider me a fool; if I am silent, I cannot escape my conscience.”
— St. Francis, quoted by Paul Swanson ([16:10])

“Unless we want to cut out 2/3 of the Bible, we better honor other religions.”
— Richard Rohr ([12:36])

“Religion is not the game of Monopoly… if you land on love, you don’t get to charge people rent.”
— Omid Safi ([41:39])

“What if God is not hidden at all, but is hiding in plain sight?”
— Omid Safi ([43:44])

“I know you’re tired. Come, this is the way.”
— Rumi, translated by Omid Safi ([73:38])

Tone and Atmosphere

The conversation is warm, contemplative, and deeply respectful—often marked by palpable pauses and reverent silence. Both the hosts and their guests blend storytelling, historical critique, and affectionate mutual inquiry, making the exploration both inviting and profound.

Conclusion:

The episode challenges listeners to rethink what it means to embody love in divided times. Through the lens of the Francis–Sultan encounter, Richard Rohr and Omid Safi urge a way forward rooted in humility, curiosity, poetry, and the courage to hold compassionate critique toward one’s own community. Above all, they advocate for persistent return to “the path of radical love”—even, and especially, when tired.

For those seeking inspiration on interfaith relationship, courageous love, and living nondual wisdom in a polarized world, this episode offers both challenge and deep encouragement.