Introducing the Enneagram with Richard Rohr

Summary

Podcast Summary: Everything Belongs – “Introducing the Enneagram with Richard Rohr”
Date: March 6, 2026
Host: Center for Action and Contemplation
Featuring: Richard Rohr, Mike Petro, Paul Swanson, Carmen Acevedo Butcher, Cassidy Hall, Drew Jackson

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Overview

This inaugural episode of the new Enneagram-focused season welcomes listeners to an exploration of the Enneagram through the lens of contemplative Christianity, guided by Father Richard Rohr—a renowned Enneagram teacher and founder of the Center for Action and Contemplation. The episode traces Richard's personal journey with this ancient tool, recaps the nine Enneagram types, and invites the hosting team to share their own origin stories and how the Enneagram shapes their spiritual lives and work in the world. The tone is warm, insightful, humorous, and reflective, weaving personal anecdotes with deep spiritual wisdom.

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Episode Structure

1. Introduction and Purpose [00:00–03:00]
2. Richard Rohr’s Enneagram Journey [07:16–13:20]
3. Overview of the 9 Enneagram Types with Richard Rohr [15:09–40:41]
4. Roundtable: Hosts’ Enneagram Stories & Insights [44:55–84:46]
5. How the Enneagram Connects Us to Ourselves, Others, and Our Work [69:26–85:23]
6. Closing Blessings and Reflections [84:46–End]

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Introduction & Season Purpose

• The season focuses on the Enneagram as a path from "wounds to wisdom", learning how our unique woundedness leads us to our gifts and service in the world.
• The Enneagram is presented as both ancient and contemporary: combining psychological insight with Christian contemplative roots.
  [Mike Petro, 01:45]: “What makes the Enneagram so exciting is that it’s not only based on the tools of contemporary psychology, but it also draws from the teachings of several different ancient wisdom traditions, including, and especially the contemplative Christian tradition.”

2. Origin Stories with the Enneagram

• The team shares humorous and vulnerable stories of how they first encountered the Enneagram—often amidst skepticism or confusion about the symbol.
  [Paul Swanson, 03:15]: “I borrowed Richard's book on the Enneagram and I read it kind of in secret, just trying to figure out who I am...I could be any of these numbers. And then I got to 9 and type 9 just landed so easily.”
• Richard’s playful ability to type someone by their soup-eating style is recounted.
  [Paul, 04:10]: “Richard says, you eat like a nine.”
• Mike, with evangelical background, at first saw the Enneagram symbol as “witchcraft,” a joke he still tells.

3. Richard Rohr’s Encounter with the Enneagram

• Richard discovered the Enneagram through spiritual direction with a Jesuit, Father Jim O’Brien, who slowly introduced the wisdom of the types.
• It became an essential tool in his pastoral and community work, helping people understand themselves and each other, and saving “so many marriages, so many pastoral teams, so many friendships.”
  [Richard Rohr, 07:16]: “My whole life is offering correctives to things which I hate about myself. And yet it's my gift. It's what I'm a natural at.”
• The Enneagram allowed people to see their “sin” as a potential gift when embraced, not denied, and removed moral judgment from personality differences:
  [Richard Rohr, 11:34]: “That was the genius of the anagram turning, as we call it, your sin into your gift...and allow it to be a quiet teacher inside. Watch it. You’re going there.”

4. The Enneagram as a Tool for Shadow Work & Love

• The Enneagram is paired with Jung’s concept of the Shadow: a means of seeing, educating, and embracing the less-loved parts of ourselves.
• Central to its effectiveness is linking self-critique and critique of others with love and forgiveness.
  [Mike Petro, 13:33]: “Look at our shadow lovingly. Right. Because shadow work is...We recognize that they might need some education and some liberation, but also a lot of love.” [Richard Rohr, 14:09]: “There’s this forgiveness right behind the recognition of the fault. But hey, I can forgive it. He’s not perverse. He’s not trying to get me. He’s just being his obsessive thing. Now let’s let him see it and do it for good.”

5. The Nine Types: Wounds, Gifts, and Exemplars [15:09–40:41]

Richard offers a short, vivid tour of each type, their wound, gift, and a historical or scriptural example.
(Each segment includes notable playful banter on real-life and biblical “types,” e.g., Lady Gaga’s Kermit dress for Fours, Liberace, Joan of Arc as an Eight.)

- One (The Reformer):

• Wound: Overriding need to “do it right”—creates judgmentalism.
• Gift: Integrity, ability to improve and correct.
• Example: John Calvin [17:16]

- Two (The Helper):

• Wound: Love as manipulation (codependency), “Addicted to love.”
• Gift: Deep capacity for connection and supportive love.
• Example: Mary Magdalene, John the Apostle [19:21]

- Three (The Achiever):

• Wound: Only valuable if productive—can become superficial.
• Gift: Ability to solve problems and get things done.
• Example: King David [21:53]

- Four (The Individualist):

• Wound: Needs to be unique, feels misunderstood, struggles with envy.
• Gift: Creativity, authenticity, depth.
• Example: Ezekiel (after some joking about Jesus and Lady Gaga) [25:34]

- Five (The Investigator):

• Wound: Withdrawn, values interiority, fears depletion.
• Gift: Astute observer, master of the inner world; “naturally Buddhists.”
• Example: Thomas the Apostle [27:50]

- Six (The Loyalist):

• Wound: Rooted in fear, insecurity, and the need for safety—most common type globally.
• Gift: Loyalty, humility, deep conscience.
• Example: St. Thomas More [30:48]

- Seven (The Enthusiast):

• Wound: Avoids pain by pursuing joy/excitement; hates confronting darkness/death.
• Gift: Optimism, energy, positivity.
• Example: St. Philip Neri [33:30]

- Eight (The Challenger):

• Wound: Moves forward by opposition (“overkill”); struggles with vulnerability.
• Gift: Strong leadership, power for good.
• Example: Joan of Arc, Dag Hammarskjöld [35:28]

- Nine (The Peacemaker):

• Wound: Self-effacing, fears asserting themselves, “floats” through life, indolence.
• Gift: Peacemaking, humility, ease.
• Example: Catherine of Siena (by working from sidelines), contemplative nuns [39:08]

Notable Banter:

• [Mike, 40:14] “Most important question. What number is Opie (the dog)?”
  • [Richard, 40:23] “Oh, I think he's a 2, 3. He loves to performing. Please, Opie...That's codependent, Opie. Right.”

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6. Hosts’ Enneagram Origin Stories & Self-Understanding [44:55–49:17]

Each host shares their “Enneagram origin story”, and how initial skepticism became appreciation.

• Cassidy (5w4): Encountered through a monk/gifted book, “I can never know enough.”
• Paul (9w1): Discovered at CAC; identifies with peacemaking and environmental attunement.
• Drew (9w1): Resonates with avoidance of conflict but also desire for harmony and unity.
• Carmen (4w5): Found Enneagram book in Germany during the Berlin Wall’s fall; recognized deep longing, trauma, and individuality.
• Mike (4w5): Multiple mis-typings reflect complexity, ultimately landed on desire for authenticity and freedom for self/others.

Quotes:

• [Cassidy, 45:31]: “He gave me the book...and I thought, what is this hocus pocus? What am I looking at? But it didn’t scare me. It excited me.”
• [Paul, 51:02]: “Nines are pretty porous. Like, everything just comes in. And trying to understand what I actually feel about it…has been a big piece of it.”
• [Drew, 55:26]: “Someone asked me the question, how are you doing?...It takes me a while to honestly answer that question, to locate in myself, like, what am I actually feeling?”
• [Carmen, 56:54]: “Because of the trauma in my background, I thought I was terribly unique and special. I had no idea how painful that was...One of the greatest revelations was that I needed to learn to mourn.”

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7. The Enneagram as a Tool for Healing and Solidarity [60:00–85:23]

Healing with the Enneagram

• Each host describes the wounds (e.g., anger, grief, fear) associated with their types and how Enneagram awareness aided their healing, provided balance, and pointed them toward wholeness.
• Cassidy notes the importance of not just intellectualizing everything as a 5 (head type), but also embodying wisdom from others (gut, heart types).

Quotes:

• [Drew, 63:05]: “Staying in touch with my anger, staying in touch with sadness...is part of my spiritual practice. It’s part of why I write poetry…allowing me to access those things.”
• [Carmen, 66:54]: “I wanted to embrace the ordinary...the thing that made me special and isolated was trauma, really.”
• [Mike, 69:26]: “For me as an Enneagram 4 Wing 5, one of my greatest healing tasks is not to get swept away in my emotions...authenticity is a journey, and we never get there....we’re all a little bit of a mystery to ourselves.”

From Understanding to Solidarity

• The Enneagram moves beyond self-understanding to solidarity and compassion, facilitating movement toward loving others, especially those who are different or hard to love. [Mike, 72:12]: “How has the Enneagram helped you understand those around you and maybe even move beyond understanding to standing in solidarity and compassion with others?”
• Cassidy and Carmen invoke MLK Jr. and Ram Dass, referencing our “inescapable network of mutuality” and the call to love even those hard to love.

Wisdom for the World

• All see the Enneagram as not just for personal growth but putting “our healing in the service of healing the world.”
  [Mike, 80:05]: “I can give myself permission to lean into the things that are natural for me...The pain that you can feel is the pain that you can heal.”
• [Drew, 81:14]: “When I know who I am with nothing to prove, it frees me to do the work of love.”

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• [Richard Rohr, 13:31]: “It’s a very helpful way, yeah…recognize your shadow. And we had a format for recognizing your shadow. And dang was amazingly accurate…allowed me to save so many marriages, so many pastoral teams, so many friendships.”
• [Richard Rohr, 25:57]: “Who writes plays? Who creates musicals except Fours? Watch the Oscars—it’s just a whole evening of Fours.”
• [Cassidy Hall, 45:31]: “It was that feeling you get when you come across something new and you have the opportunity to be defensive or curious. I opted to be curious. Thank God I did.”
• [Drew Jackson, 75:02]: “To encounter oneself is to encounter the other, and this is love. If I know that my soul trembles, I know that yours does too.”
• [Mike Petro, 83:17]: “Any kind of typology can box other people up…or it can be an invitation to get curious.”

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Important Timestamps

• [07:16] – Richard Rohr: How the Enneagram “found” him, using it in ministry
• [15:09–40:41] – Brief overviews of all nine types
• [44:55] – Hosts begin sharing their Enneagram origin stories
• [55:26] – Drew reflects as a 9, value of peacemaking, struggles with anger and self-expression
• [66:54] – Carmen (4) on trauma, longing, and embracing the ordinary
• [69:26] – The Enneagram and the journey from wounding to wisdom
• [75:02] – Drew quotes James Baldwin: self-encounter as pathway to loving others
• [81:14] – Drew’s poem: “When I know who I am with nothing to prove, it frees me to do the work of love.”
• [84:46–85:23] – Hosts’ one-sentence blessings/intentions for the season

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Closing Blessings & Reflections

• The hosts offer encouragements: curiosity, self-compassion, joy in letting go of ego, the freedom to love, and the courage to act in solidarity.
  [Mike Petro, 85:23]: “May our wounds lead us out on our wandering. May they cause us to wonder. May our wounds lead us to our wisdom and our work in the world. May they help us find our weird and above all, may they connect us to everyone else in our wonderful human family.”

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Final Thoughts

Tone and Takeaway:

• The conversation is marked by openness, depth, self-compassion, and humor. Richard Rohr and the hosts demonstrate how the Enneagram is not just a self-improvement tool, but a transformative invitation to deeper love—for self, others, and the whole of humanity.
• Listeners are encouraged to join the journey as co-learners and companions, whether new to the Enneagram or lifelong students.

Memorable Image:
Enneagram is described as “nine different doorways to knowing God,” with each wound leading to a unique wisdom and calling to heal the world.

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Recommended Next Step:
Consider listening to future episodes as the team explores each Enneagram type in greater depth, accompanied by tools for group and personal application. And, as Richard says, “let’s do it all for goodness’ sake.”

Transcript

[Carmen Acevedo Butcher]

You're listening to a podcast by the center for Action and Contemplation. To learn more, visit cac.org welcome, friends,

[Mike Petro]

to the Everything Belongs podcast with Father Richard Rohr. Each season we've explored one of Richard's deep teachings, focusing on his books. Each episode, we've traveled over to Richard's house to discuss a chapter with him, and then we're joined by a guest who helps us live the teachings forward, thinking about Richard's teachings in new ways by asking new questions. Emerging from our rapidly changing world, we've looked at Falling Upward. We've explored Eager to Love. And last season we looked at Richard's latest book, the Tears of Things. This season is going to be a little bit different and extra special because we're going back to Richard's work and teaching on an ancient tool of discernment, solidarity and self discovery that focuses on how our wounds lead us to our wisdom and and our work in the world. And of course, I'm talking about the Enneagram. For those of you who have never heard the word Enneagram before, the Enneagram is a word with Greek roots referring technically to a nine pointed shape. But it's used today to refer to a personality system that identifies nine unique interconnected types. Now you'll see that symbol on the COVID of a lot of Enneagram books. What makes the Enneagram so exciting is that it's not only based on the tools of contemporary psychology, but it also draws from the teachings of several different ancient wisdom traditions, including, and especially the contemplative Christian tradition. A lot of our listeners first encountered Richard as an Enneagram teacher, and in the first part of our episode, we head over to Richard's living room to ask him how he first encountered the Enneagram, he and what it taught him. In the second part of the episode, we'll call in the Council to kick off the conversation with this season's amazing hosting team, Drew Jackson, Carmen Acevedo, Butcher, Paul Swanson, our newest host, Cassidy hall, and of course, myself, Mike Petro. Together we explore our own Enneagram experiences, why we think it's a helpful tool, and we share our excitement and expectations for this season. Whether you're an Enneagram enthusiast or brand new to this teaching, we hope you'll join us in this conversation about how the Enneagram can help reveal that everything and everyone belongs. From the center for action and contemplation, I'm mike petro.

[Paul Swanson]

I'm paul swanson.

[Carmen Acevedo Butcher]

I'm carmen acevedo. Butcher.

[Cassidy Hall]

I'm cassidy hall.

[Drew Jackson]

And I'm drew jackson.

[Mike Petro]

And this is everything belongs. Richard. Paul, I cannot believe that we are here.

[Paul Swanson]

1.

[Mike Petro]

For another season of Everything Belongs. 2. I can't believe we're here to talk about the Enneagram. Before we get started, Paul, I have to ask, what is your Enneagram origin story? How did you first learn about the Enneagram?

[Paul Swanson]

I didn't know anything about it until I came here to the CAC as an intern in 2007. And everyone, of course, was aflutter, talking about their types and what the Enneagram was. And I was like, what are we talking about? So I borrowed Richard's book on the Enneagram and I read it kind of in secret, just trying to figure out who I am. Like, I could be any of these numbers. And then I got to 9 and type 9 just landed so easily.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Like, oh, yeah.

[Paul Swanson]

This is embarrassing. This is showcasing who I am. Does everybody know this about me?

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's so often people are so. Does everybody know this about me but me?

[Mike Petro]

Oh, my gosh.

[Paul Swanson]

There's a great moment too, because, like, I'm discerning this. I just realized I'm a nine and feeling embarrassed about it. And we invited Richard over to the intern house to have dinner. And Richard's sitting next to me and I'm eating soup. And Richard leans over and see.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Exactly.

[Paul Swanson]

Richard says, you eat like a nine.

[Father Richard Rohr]

I said that? Really? And I just, like, shook it. Oh, shameless of me.

[Paul Swanson]

But it was a confirmation of something that I'd already recognized through reading the book. And I was like, there it is. I'm so transparent in who I am. Richard could tell by how I ate soup. So soup is really the great indicator for me about me being a nine.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Did you play with it a little bit?

[Paul Swanson]

I think I would take a bite or a sip, and then I'd put the spoon down and kind of look around, soak in the scene. And you caught me red handed. So that's how it came to me was when I was an intern at the cac. But how about you? What's your origin story with enrollment?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Mike?

[Mike Petro]

I think when I was deeply immersed in contemplative practice from the Eastern Orthodox world, but I was moving into Western contemplation, and I was going on retreats, and I would hear people mention it, and I picked up a book about the Enneagram. I don't remember which book it was. And I saw that symbol on the COVID and my old evangelical baggage kicked in. And I thought, oh, looks Like a pentagram. Pentagram must be witchcraft. And so then as a joke for years, people would ask me what I thought about the Enneagram. And I would say, oh, it's witchcraft, you know?

[Paul Swanson]

Yeah.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Did you really?

[Mike Petro]

Oh, yeah.

[Cassidy Hall]

Yeah.

[Mike Petro]

For years, I. I still say it sometimes, just for fun. When I entered the Living School, that's when I first realized how seriously people took it. And I. I knew typologies. I was really into Myers Briggs and a few other things. But as a Living School student, other students kept asking me, what's your Enneagram type? What's your Enneagram type? And I genuinely didn't know. Which was then an invitation for everyone to guess. So people keep making suggestions. And a lot of those suggestions revolved around my fashion sense. And then in the end, when I met Richard, Richard asked what my type was. And Richard suggested, you should do that.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Go.

[Mike Petro]

I know, I know you're not supposed to type people, but Richard suggested that I might be a four. And to anyone listening who doesn't know what it means that we're talking about being a four or a nine, I promise you're gonna learn all about that this season. But Richard suggested I might be a four. And then at one point he said, you know, I don't know if you're a four. Cause you smile too much.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's right. I would still say that.

[Mike Petro]

And do you remember what I said?

[Father Richard Rohr]

No.

[Mike Petro]

I said, I smile because I'm thinking about sadness. And it makes me so happy.

[Father Richard Rohr]

What an answer.

[Mike Petro]

Yes. And I think you assured me that that was a very Enneagrammal answer. But it's wild to me how many folks I talk to who, when I ask how they first discovered Richard, they will say it was his teachings on the Enneagram.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Oh, yeah. Yeah.

[Paul Swanson]

One of the amazing things about you as a human and as a teacher is how much you follow your curiosity. I've seen it bringing to deep study of Scripture, men's rites, of passages, psychology, myth, art, mysticism. You know, the list goes on. And like we were saying, one of the major things you're known for is the Enneagram. But this is not something that your curiosity led you to. As you say, it found you. Can you share with us when you first heard the word Enneagram, how did the Enneagram find you?

[Father Richard Rohr]

I knew I needed a spiritual director. I found one. Father Jim O', Brien, S.J. jesuit. He led me very gracefully. He didn't let me know he was teaching me the anagram, but he was. I thought he was just helping me understand myself. He was helping me understand what a one is, how one operates. And he lets me know I'm a so called one. And I can still see the place on the street where I'm driving back to the community, which wasn't far from Xavier University. And the truth of it all just descends. My God, he's right. How did he know that? Where did he learn that? My whole life is offering correctives to things which I hate about myself. And yet it's my gift. It's what I'm a natural at. It would be perfect except for, dang, that's just the way my mind works. So I still went to his sessions, private spiritual direction sessions for I think, several years. And he brought it to a fullness. Soon I invited a couple Jesuits. He couldn't do it himself, Jim, but a couple others to come and teach it to this budding community. We might have been one of the first lay, if I can call it that, groups to learn it. Priests and nuns were learning it quickly. It so much so it became identified with the Catholic Church and with retreat houses and religious orders because it answered so many questions that you long to have answered when you're in community about who you are and who everybody else is and why on a certain level, people don't change. So I got good at it because I was using it to pastorally direct this. 400 people had moved into the neighborhood. We had 14 households. Common living situations where we had headship, as we called it then. And we just needed a skill set, know how to critique that, critique authority in general. Well, he's just an 8. He can't help it. He's a whatever else, you know, and I'm a one correcting, recognizing that everything needs correction. I mean, it's as recent as my recent book on the tears of things. Pleading for the gift of self criticism. You could draw a direct line from my anagram fascination to my book, 42 books later. If you don't have corrective, everything corrupts, everything rots. Everything is too much of one thing. But if you have leaders who catch their own shadow, to use Jungian term, which is a discovery that came a few years later, the recognition of the shadow. Those two just worked together real well to recognize your shadow. And we had a format for recognizing your shadow. And dang was amazingly accurate to such a degree. I still can't believe it 50 years later, 40 years later, whatever it is, it allowed me to save so many marriages, so many pastoral teams, so many friendships. Once people knew that he's doing that because he's a six and he's not just doing that to get me or because he's hard hearted, he's just who he is. And it took so much of the moral questioning, moral judgmentalism out of it. Because when you told the person to a certain level, he's not going to change. You've got to help him turn it into a gift. That was the genius of the anagram turning, as we call it, your sin into your gift. And it worked once. You could liberate them from the obsessive character of it and allow it to be a. A quiet teacher inside. Watch it. You're going there. You're overdoing it. We're still waiting for the definitive study which says why. Why is this almost an ontology? It's not just a personality profile, it's an ontological basis somehow. How can something be so true? It explains my marriage relationship, it explains my children, which is, by the way, hard to do people you're really close to, your parents, your children, your partner, you have such a complex multilayered relationship with them. It's hard to do your own family. But when you do, and if it's the correct diagnosis, the fruit is fruitful. Very fruitful. We required an Enneagram course as necessary for pre marriage counseling. They both had to know their numbers and they'd sit and talk with me for a few hours. So I got led into the anagram step by step. It's growing in popularity again.

[Mike Petro]

Very much so, yeah. For me, the connection you just made there to the shadow, that's a really, really helpful way for me to think about the Enneagram as a tool that helps us.

[Father Richard Rohr]

It's a very helpful way. Yeah.

[Mike Petro]

Look at our shadow lovingly. Right. Because shadow work is. We see the parts of ourself that we don't want to see. We recognize that they might need some education and some liberation, but also a lot of love. Richard, as a one, you have all this insightful critique. Did it give you freedom to be who you were and also love more?

[Father Richard Rohr]

The rough edges around that? Yeah, yeah.

[Mike Petro]

Well, I think about even tiers of things. You talk about the need for self critique, but how that has to be rooted in love and the need for external critique, but how that has to

[Father Richard Rohr]

be rooted in love, this forgiveness right behind the recognition of the fault. But hey, I can forgive it. He's not perverse. He's not trying to get me. He's just being his obsessive thing. Now let's Let him see it and do it for good. For good, for goodness sake.

[Mike Petro]

That's where you turn the weakness or the wound into wisdom, right? Yeah, you do it for good.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Isn't it interesting? We have that expression, for goodness sake to do the same thing, but now let's do it in a way that builds instead of deconstructs. And you found it worked for every one of the nine types, each discovering who they were.

[Mike Petro]

And it's so insightful to think about the fact that our superpower is also our weakness and our weakness so biblically.

[Father Richard Rohr]

In my reading of the scriptures, that love of paradoxical thinking is central.

[Paul Swanson]

Richard, you've alluded to the nine types. We've thrown out numbers and a few attributes to each. Could we take a minute just to go through each of the nine types and just give a snapshot? We're going to go through each one in more detail. Throughout the rest of this podcast season, we'll go through one by one, slowly, but just a very. A very brief overview of each type.

[Mike Petro]

So we were wondering if we could just ask you, one at a time, what the strength and the weakness of each number is. And then we'll ask you if there's one person in history or scripture that you immediately think of who embody that number. So starting at the top, Richard, with the Enneagram one, what's the weakness and what's the strength?

[Father Richard Rohr]

The one where this comes from, God only knows. But you find them in every culture. All nine of these are found. I taught this in Japan, I taught it in Africa, I taught it in Latin America. They all got it. The one are those people who have an overriding need to do it right, to be right. Now, there's something good about that, but there's something dangerous about that. Do you really think you are right? And that's the trouble. You do, which makes you judgmental. And yet without one's, a whole bunch of things wouldn't happen. Now, I'm going to say that about all nine types. A whole bunch of things wouldn't happen. But I'm so aware that my righteousness is dangerous. It's so dangerous for my own soul, first of all, but for the way I relate to others, because I want them to do it right. I don't understand why people wouldn't do it right, as if I knew it's all based on a false premise. Now I'm talking far more than one sentence.

[Mike Petro]

No, that's great, though. But in addition to Father Richard Rohr, one on the Enneagram, who's a one from scripture or history that we could think about.

[Father Richard Rohr]

John Calvin.

[Mike Petro]

John Calvin. Oh my God. Okay, moving on.

[Paul Swanson]

No one rings a bell.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Is a one off the chart? I never read the institutes that I wrote. Apparently Presbyterians say it's wonderful.

[Paul Swanson]

Okay, let's go to two. Richard, what is the wound and the wisdom of the two type?

[Father Richard Rohr]

The two loves to connect and be connected. It becomes the whole purpose of their life. They therefore think, and there's some truth to it, that they are better lovers don't think in the sexual way just than everybody else because they so appreciate relationship, romance, infatuation. They're in love with the idea of being in love with loving other people. And until we had the book in my lifetime and yours on codependency, we didn't realize there was another meaning to an awful lot of love. It's highly self serving, manipulative and addictive. We had to give that a name. But that didn't come till my lifetime. Codependency twos tend to be very codependent people. My caregiver that we all know who comes here to the house, he's a two off the wall. He knows all of this. I can tease him about it every day. It's he met a new friend and he wants to deepen the friendship. It's an addiction to friendship which becomes manipulative to the friend.

[Mike Petro]

Thinking of the song Addicted to Love, we could have a song for every member.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Oh yes, that would be good. Oh, that's been done. People have picked popular music for each popular of the nine types.

[Paul Swanson]

Is there a biblical or historical figure that comes to mind for you?

[Father Richard Rohr]

I suspect the obvious ones are Mary Magdalene and John the Apostle John who has to put his head on the breast of Jesus. I'm the special one and it's true. But it's dangerous. Mary Magdalene who has to make a big shovel of pouring oil over his feet to show her capacity for love. But it's true. It's dangerous. Are other people not loving who don't enjoy such sacramental action as anointing the feet?

[Mike Petro]

So Richard, then what is the wound and what is the wisdom of the enneagram? 3.

[Father Richard Rohr]

The three somehow learn very early that they were only really valuable if they were productive. People would only really love them if they came through with product. So they become experts at producing effect. And thank God for them. We love them. You want to get something done, you better have a three on the team. They're problem solvers. Coming down the mountain yesterday from the angel of Fire it was six men and the car I was at, I was a driver, thank God. Couldn't get up the icy rise on the highway. Almost every one of them. They're problem solvers. They're just in one minute, jumping out of the car, getting behind it, backing up. Let's try the hill one more time. I think we had to do it six times before we could get up, but I knew we would because they're not all threes. I don't know if any of them are, but they are problem solvers. So we all love threes. It's what much of the world loves and hates about America. We're utilitarian, we're problem solvers. We get it done. It's wonderful. But it creates superficiality, as if the only answer is to solve the problem. Now what that you got up the hill. What else does life mean besides a slick way to get up the hill?

[Mike Petro]

Who's a good example of a 3 in Scripture or history?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Probably David. I've never used that before, but if you look at him, he's succeeding as the warrior, as the lover. He loves Yahweh the best. If he wrote the psalms, he knows how, and he does. If he didn't have threes, we'd hardly have a language for productive love, effective love. So David comes to mind about force.

[Paul Swanson]

What's the wound and the wisdom of force?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Fours are so interesting. They love being special, they love being creative. So they notice the edges and the top and the bottom. They almost hate the normal. It's beneath them being normal. They revel and delight in the exception to the rule. And they operate on the exceptional plane. And the rest of us benefit from it. I mean, who writes plays? Who creates musicals except Forbes? You just. I mean, watch the Oscars. It's just a whole evening of fours. And the rest of us delight at it. Look at that outfit she's in. Who else would create a dress like that except a 4? So the rest of us delight in it, while also a bit dismissive of it. It's too showy, it's too special. It needs to be noticed. And so most of us have a kind of love hate relationship with the four. Except other fours, which makes their sin envy. They see. Wow, that's good. That's a beautiful dress. That's a beautiful song. And I wish I would have written it. It's the trouble. I wish I would have made that dress appearance. Visuals are extremely important to fors how it looks. And you see how that can so lend itself to vanity, to Superficiality. After the first half of life of doing that, what is there besides impressing people? So one of their favorite words is authentic. They love the word authentic because they're trying their whole life to be authentic. And they often achieve it in moments, which is all any of us do. Okay, the four.

[Paul Swanson]

Yeah, thank you for that. And the four. And then how about. Is there a figure from scripture or history?

[Father Richard Rohr]

That would be the four.

[Mike Petro]

I keep telling Richard it's Jesus, but he doesn't want to get on board with that one.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Who?

[Mike Petro]

I keep saying Jesus is a four, but you refuse to get on board with that.

[Paul Swanson]

I was going to say Liberace.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Liberace.

[Mike Petro]

You talked about a dress. Did you ever see the picture when Lady Gaga wore the dress that was all Kermit the frog heads?

[Father Richard Rohr]

No.

[Mike Petro]

Oh my God. It's one of my favorite things ever.

[Father Richard Rohr]

They're so self confident in their creativity. They know some people think they're weird, but they don't care. Who would be a biblical figure who's a four?

[Paul Swanson]

Ezekiel, maybe.

[Mike Petro]

We just talked about Ezekiel and all the sort of like, oh, Ezekiel drama for sure.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Ezekiel, yes. All of his posturing and pretending, enacting. Yeah. People probably don't know his biography that much, but you're absolutely right. Ezekiel the prophet would be a 4.

[Paul Swanson]

Folks can go back to that episode and listen to it again, where we talked about Ezekiel with that lens.

[Mike Petro]

All right, so enneagram5, Richard, what's the wound and what's the wisdom?

[Father Richard Rohr]

The 5 is unable to trust or enjoy action. They want authenticity, interiority, and there they find their superiority in being interior and authentic and liberated. So it produces Buddhism. Fives aren't naturally Christians, they're naturally Buddhists. And there's much to be said for that. They're always a bit withdrawn, a bit non needy for group affirmation. They just sit in the background or on the side and with their astute inner observations. But they're not really judgmental. They're just limited to the inner. They're masters of the inner. And it's beautiful, but it's sort of in its worst case, it's snobbish. Yeah. They can almost have lived inside so long that they don't know how to relate in the outside. They're not interested in it. We had early staff who were fives who came to join the CAC because they could be contemplative and it's amazing how little work they produced. Action isn't important for them. It's just clarification, endless clarification.

[Mike Petro]

Who's a good historical or biblical or even you mentioned Buddhism from another religion. Who's a good example of a 5?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Probably the almost too obvious one would be Thomas. The doubter, until his intellectual problem is solved is not going to enter into serious relationship with Jesus unless I touch which he's exactly right. The 5 is afraid of anything too physical, too touchy feely.

[Mike Petro]

That's interesting too because I can't help but reflect on the fact that tradition says that Thomas and history seems to indicate that Thomas went to India. And also the Gospel of Thomas is deeply interior in its. It's so psychologically complex. Interesting, interesting, interesting.

[Paul Swanson]

Let's swing it up to the six. What's the wisdom and wound of the six?

[Father Richard Rohr]

The wound of the six is we assume early in life they experienced insecurity, doubt, non safety, fear. Is the easiest way to say it that the world is a scary place and I better be careful. They might be the most common number worldwide. There's a beautiful side to that of the little people who are just content do their little job running their fruit stand on the edge of town and making sure there's enough fruit to sell tomorrow. And they don't need a lot of beyond that hobbits. It's just resolve my fears and I'm alive, I'm okay now. That makes them very loyal and if you have a six friend they can be most. They will be most loyal and beautiful. But it can make them live in a very small world. What I need is to be secured and secure me and I'll stay with you. Jesus most common one liner is do not be afraid. And I think that's because religion has misused that and called it religion being obedient. Obedience was more important than love. I think a number of the Franciscans who taught me were fear based men. You never expected anything courageous or new or different. All they do is repeat the orthodoxy so they can have a hard time trusting change. They do have a hard time in the Catholic Church. They hated Vatican ii. It took away their Latin mass and really demanded radical change in terms of how we imaged Catholicism.

[Paul Swanson]

Is there a figure that comes to mind when you think about the six, whether in history or scripture?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Well, he isn't that well known, but St. Thomas More, their very loyalty can make them loyal to the highest purpose. He was loyal to the King of England but he was also in the end loyal to God even more. But a lawyer, he's really a great saint. I don't know if you ever saw the movie and the Play a man for all seasons. It's the story of Thomas More. First rate. They give law and conscience a good name. If they're healthy sixes, because they tend to be humble people, they're not overly assured of their own rightness.

[Mike Petro]

So, Richard, then, thinking about the sevens, what is the wound and the wisdom of a 7?

[Father Richard Rohr]

A 7 seems to have learned early that the way to live life is to fill it with juice and joy. And this is the way to triumph over pain. Overdo the travel and joy element and I won't feel the pain. We're all trying to overcome the pain, but sevens make an art form of it. They hate death. My dad was a seven. I can remember when we took him to the cemetery plot where he was going to be buried with my mother. And he couldn't look down at it. He couldn't. He just grimaced and looked away.

[Mike Petro]

You know, my dad's a seven is the same way with death.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah. They don't like any talk of death or darkness, but they give such a

[Mike Petro]

positive view of life and the future.

[Father Richard Rohr]

They've lived on the positive all their life. I'm convinced most sevens live longer than the rest of us.

[Mike Petro]

Really?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Oh, they live into their 80s and 90s so often because their whole body is not suffering reality. I refuse to suffer. I'm an enjoyer. And it works to a certain degree.

[Mike Petro]

Is there a woman mystic that you would think of who's a seven?

[Father Richard Rohr]

A seven couldn't limit themselves to one little hermitage and live. That's too little space. They need travel, they need movement, they need newness.

[Mike Petro]

Who's a good example of a 7?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Well, he's only known in the Catholic world, but St. Philip Neri was called the jokester of Rome. He would entertain the kids with jokes. He's the patron of the initial parish church here in Albuquerque. Over here in Old Town, St. Philip Neri. He's a jokester. He was always feeling he could bring more people to God by humor and by judgment. Oh, I love that. Yeah. He must have been a delightful person. The Bible isn't a very humorous book.

[Mike Petro]

It is not.

[Paul Swanson]

Is it Sarah who laughs when she finds out she's pregnant?

[Mike Petro]

Yes. It's a cynical laugh.

[Paul Swanson]

It's a cynical laugh.

[Mike Petro]

Yeah.

[Paul Swanson]

On that note, let's shift to the eight.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Oh, yeah.

[Paul Swanson]

What is the wisdom and wound of the eight, Richard?

[Father Richard Rohr]

You know, there is. If we had time here, there's overflow of one number into the next. They're alike and they're different by a few degrees. The biggest flip is between the seven and the eight, the seven is overly positive. The eight is seemingly negative. They venge themselves on reality. They fight reality. They love to be hard and harsh. They move forward by opposition. The sin is called lust, in the true meaning of the word lust. Not just sex, but overstatement. Overkill. That's a better word. It's one big life of overkill, and they can't see it. They proceed by opposition.

[Paul Swanson]

Are there examples of eights that come to mind that you would point to? Dorothy Day came to mind. Joan of Arc.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Huh? You know, I bet Joan of Arc was an eight. Yeah. Even wore men's clothes so she'd be taken seriously by men. They're always fighting. That's a good example. Joan of Arc. If they're smart people, they know how to use power for good. They know how to manage power. I bet some of the heads of the United nations were highly constructive eights who learned how to do it used power for the good of the whole world, not just for their country or the West. Dag Hammerskjold, but spoke with great authority.

[Mike Petro]

I feel like for every eight born, God gives us a nine to keep things in balance. Richard, what's the wound and the wisdom of the enneagram 9?

[Father Richard Rohr]

The 9 doesn't think they matter that much, but they don't think anything matters that much. And so they sort of float through life. There's a beautiful part of it which they don't demand that you kiss up to them, because they don't. I'm no big deal. But it can lead them to be very unproductive. So it was associated with the capital sin of indolence or laziness. It isn't really laziness, but it is afraid of taking initiative. Let other people take initiative. I'll float. I'll glide in and out of everything. And they do, which makes them easy friends, easy conversationalists, easy partners, if you're willing to tolerate their being late for everything. You're not late for everything, though, are you, Paul? Not usually. I don't think so. At your Minnesota training. They're the nicest of all nine types, but they can be the most maddening too, because they expect everything to happen without their involvement, without them making it happen out of the other side of my mouth. I want to say that's not true. They're passive resistors. There are protest marches opposing the stupid. They see the stupid the wrong. The stance toward all of life is passive aggressive. But again, if you have a friend as a nine, he'll be a Very good friend.

[Mike Petro]

Yeah.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Because they're humble and loyal.

[Mike Petro]

What's the real gift that the nine gives to everyone else? I ask about this because as a four, I'm so grateful for my nine friends. I feel like I learn more from them.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Most of us like our nine friends. Yeah. Because they don't demand so much from you. They're content to be. And that takes the pressure off the rest of us to perform and to produce. They're the non producers, so they free the rest of us. They drive beaten up cars. It's beautiful in so many ways.

[Mike Petro]

What about Catherine of Siena? You know, writing letters to popes demanding peace and courage. Is that something else Nines do? They work from the sidelines.

[Father Richard Rohr]

You're onto something. That's one of their big gifts is they're peacemakers, harmonizers, reconcilers. They hate conflict. They love to tap it down.

[Mike Petro]

Can't remember the nines because they so don't need to be remembered.

[Paul Swanson]

Lost to history.

[Mike Petro]

When Evagrius, the other Macrina that I love. We talk about this when we talk about the history of the Enneagram. When Evagrius was this young hotshot theologian who was very good looking and loved wearing fancy clothes in Constantinople, got in trouble because I think he was having an affair with a noble woman's wife, he fled out into the desert and he came to a contemplative community run by another Macrina. And she was the one who said to him, you need to go out in the desert. You need to learn not to speak unless you're spoken to. You basically need to learn to shut up and realize that you're not the center of attention. And I don't know if that's 9 or 8 energy, but I think about that ability to take someone else and gently put them in check and send them out to do their work.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Yeah, they'd be good at that.

[Paul Swanson]

The soft prophecy.

[Father Richard Rohr]

Soft prophecy.

[Mike Petro]

I like that.

[Father Richard Rohr]

That's good. Yes.

[Mike Petro]

Most important question. To bring our Enneagram overview to a close, we had a request to ask. What number is Opie?

[Father Richard Rohr]

Oh, I think he's a 2, 3. He loves to performing. Please, Opie. Opie. Oh, hi. You want nothing more than to make me happy, don't you?

[Mike Petro]

That's codependent, Opie. Right.

[Father Richard Rohr]

He's ready to love. Thank you, Richard. Thank you.

[Mike Petro]

Everything belongs. Will continue in a moment.

[Carmen Acevedo Butcher]

We hope you can attend CAC's next virtual event on March 13, 2026. This online gathering poses the question, how do we find hope in hard times? CAC's Dean of Faculty Carmen Acevedo Butcher will be featured at this 90 minute event. Carmen will be joined by our special guest, New York Times bestselling author Cole Arthur Riley, who appears often in our daily meditations, as well as Grammy Award winning musician Jon Batiste. Learn [e-mail] hope that's cac.org hope our free Lent sit meditations return on February 20, 2026. Join us on YouTube to explore Father Richard Rohr's Lenten devotional book, Wondrous Encounters. Each meditation is led by CAC faculty and staff, inviting participants deeper into divine love. Tune in each Friday during Lent at 8:30am Pacific Time or watch the video replay at your own pace. Learn [e-mail] lent2026 that's cac.org lent2026.

[Mike Petro]

What an amazing conversation with Richard. You know, Origen of Alexandria said that the deeper issues of the spiritual life call for discussion, not definition, for exploration, not explanation. Because the real quest is in the questions. Contemplation is so much more about conversation than it is conversion. I've already told you that this season is a little bit different. If you'd like to read along, you're welcome to pick up a copy of Richard's book the A Christian Perspective, which he co authored with Andreas Ebert. But what we would really love for you to do is to join the conversation. Perhaps you might want to start a reading group or simply an Enneagram discussion group with friends who want to listen along and live the teachings forward yourselves, whether it's a text thread, a Facebook group, or a monthly meeting in a coffee shop or a living room or a zoom room. And of course, some of the deepest conversations take place in our journals or in prayer. Our hope is that as we spend the next year exploring the Enneagram, it helps us understand ourselves a little more, understand others, and figure out how we can all put our healing in the service of healing the world. To support that conversation, we're going to figure out how to share some discussion questions and bonus tools with you every month. So stay tuned for more on that in our next episode. In that spirit, we now join our CAC hosting team for just one of these conversations. Drew Jackson is a published poet, a preacher, and a leader here at the center for action and contemplation. Dr. Carmen Acevedo Butcher is a teacher, a translator, and our Dean of Faculty here at the cac. Paul Swanson is the OG longest running staff person here who's had almost every job from transcribing Richard's old tapes to hosting his first podcast. Dr. Cassidy hall is an author, a filmmaker, and an ordained Minister with a UCC. And I'm Dr. Mike Petro, a mythologist, a student of ancient stories and contemplative teachings through the lens of contemporary psychology. I just want to note, folks, that Paul Swanson could only join us for part of the conversation, but don't worry, he'll be back with us next episode. And for the rest of the season, Paul and I got a chance to ask Richard this. Drew Cassidy, Carmen, I would love to hear from each of you. What is your Enneagram origin story? Cassidy, you're our newbie, so why don't you go first?

[Cassidy Hall]

You know, like any good story, it begins with a monk. And I heard about the enneagram in around 2011 or 2012 from a monk at Snowmass Monastery, Brother Aaron. And honestly, he gave me the book the Wisdom of the Enneagram. And I opened the book and I thought, what is this hocus pocus? What am I looking at? But it didn't scare me. It excited me. It was that feeling you get when you come across something new and you have the opportunity to be defensive or. Or curious. And I opted to be curious. Thank God I did.

[Drew Jackson]

I was at some kind of years ago, some kind of gathering for younger leaders who were doing ministry work. We were at lunch or dinner or something, and one of the elders who was there was familiar with the Enneagram and was talking to some of us younger leaders about it. I just remember being so fascinated, and he was wise. He said, I'm not going to tell you what your number is. I'm not going to try and type you. I just want you to sit with the descriptions of them. Read the shadow part of it. And whatever one resonates with you or pierces you most, it's probably the one that you identify most with. And so, yeah, that was my introduction to. It was just a lunch, dinner conversation and just kind of being drawn into the whole idea of it.

[Paul Swanson]

Drew, were you eating soup at the time?

[Drew Jackson]

I don't think so.

[Mike Petro]

Do we have to add how do you eat soup to a question for every single person?

[Carmen Acevedo Butcher]

Well, Cassidy, you said every good story starts with a monk. And for me, I think we could also say every good story starts with a bookstore. And so it was 1989, November, and I was on a Fulbright studying at the University of London. And I thought my main priority was, I want to go see Mother Bushbeck while she's still alive, and we can See each other in person, my dear friend. And so I went over there, and it just happened to be a long weekend I stayed with her, was the weekend that the Berlin Wall fell. So I'm sitting there with Sophie Bushbeck watching the Berlin Wall fall. And that kind of became sort of symbolic for me because at a bookstore in Heidelberg, I found this book with the weirdest title. Das Enneagram, Die neuen Gesichta der Sehle. So Enneagram, the Nine Faces of the Soul. And I was like, this is something weird. And it just drew me to it. And it was actually Richard's and Andreas Ebert's book, and it had just come out. I actually looked this up because, you know, you're not sure if your memory is remembering exactly. And I looked it up, and it did come out that summer in Germany. And I'm from the Southern Baptist background, being raised and Enneagram. Cassidy, you said hocus pocus. Definitely that and then some. Do you know more like witchcraft, like pentagram. You can tell me it means nine and drawing or nine in writing. And I am just so glad that I had such needs in my heart, that my heart was like, who cares what anybody else would think? This seems like it could be useful to you. So I'm really grateful for books and bookstores.

[Mike Petro]

Oh, that's so good. Like Cassidy, I bumped into the Enneagram at a monastery. I was at a retreat center in California, and I saw a book about the Enneagram on the shelf, and I saw the symbol. And just like you, Carmen, I saw that symbol, and it immediately made me think of a pentagram. And as a good former evangelical, my satanic panic kicked in, and I assumed that the Enneagram was as evil as Dungeons and Dragons, heavy metal music, and Pokemon. So I just sort of put it out of my mind until I became a living school student. And then as I kept meeting people, they kept asking me, what's your number? What's your number? And I thought, gosh, these folks are either really forward or really friendly. Why does everyone keep asking me for my phone number? And eventually what I realized realized was people were asking me for my Enneagram number, and everyone was talking about it. And I realized I needed to catch up. But I have to ask each of you, what's your number?

[Cassidy Hall]

So I am a five, which is also known as the investigator. So I love to collect information. I'm curious about nearly everything. And yet I also feel like I can never know enough, which is kind of the downside because I become almost Greedy for knowledge or greedy for time for myself to learn. So in a very generalized sense, I once read that fives fear being useless and deeply desire to be competent. This was the thing that nudged me to say, oh, that's me. This was the humbling moment when I read about the fear and the desire, because those really resonated. It was very humbling to see that. And so, just a quick overview. Our wing is a neighboring number on either side of your number. So for me would be a three or a four. And so, for example, I'm a five with a four wing. And the wings kind of help us understand more about our relationship to the entire Enneagram, because while we have every number in us, our number and wing points us to just a more clear picture of how we show up in the world. So I'm also curious, though, when you all share your number in your wing, I'd also love to know if any of you have been mischaracterized or mischaracterized yourself as another number or wanted to be another number. I have to admit, I had a little bit of 4 envy. I'm sure Mike has something to say about that.

[Mike Petro]

It is the best number, because when

[Cassidy Hall]

I first came across the Enneagram, I was sure I was a four. I was just positive. And part of that was just not taking the time to honestly listen to what was humbling me, because I wanted to be a four, but it wasn't the truth of who I was. But in turn, that did show me something about my wing. So, Paul, how about you?

[Paul Swanson]

Thanks, Cassidy. I've already outed myself as a nine, the peacemaker, which has certainly been a driving force in my life for good and for ill, always wanting to make sure that whether it's my family of origin or communities, I'm part of that. Folks are good with each other. And I know for me, part of that kind of environmental tuning where I tune into what's going on around me, I think nines are pretty porous. Like, everything just comes in. And trying to understand what I actually feel about it, how I'm actually experiencing it, and not letting others experiences or feelings override me has been a big piece of it. But you know, the flip side of that? When I know what I want and I want to do it is very, very clear. It might take me a while to get there. You can ask my wife how long it took me to be ready to get married, but once I'm in, like, I'm fully in, and the number I'm most Jealous of is the seven. My wife is a seven. She's the funnest person I know. Seven's just create and look for opportunity. And I think part of my own, you know, the shadowy side of the avoidant. I see sevens jump in and think about it afterwards, and I'm. I'm a little envious of that. Yeah, I'll pass to Drew to get another perspective here.

[Drew Jackson]

I am also a nine. And I mean, just resonates so much with what Paul has already said. When I read about the nine for the first time in the the need to be avoidant, I resonated deeply with that need or that. That shadow side of the nine. To avoid everything, to avoid every hard conversation conflict. So I could see that in myself. It was undeniable. Even though I wanted to say, no, that's not me. No, I can engage the hard thing. But it was just so evident in me as I looked over kind of the course of my own life. But I also resonated with the marker of the nine as a peacemaker. Both the positive sides of that, of someone who has a deep desire for harmony, for things to be held together. As a nine, I have kind of an intuition for seeing the connections between things and just wanting everybody to just understand the part that they play, that they belong in the big picture, whatever that picture is, you know, whether it's family unit or outside of that or in the world at large. It's just, hey, we don't all have to be at each other's throats. There's space for all of us at this table. That was something for me that was just like, yeah, that resonates deeply. I see that in myself. I've seen it in myself since I was a child. And, you know, Paul used the word porous. Everything just comes in. And I also have a very hard time identifying. Like, someone asked me the question, how are you doing? How are you feeling? It takes me a while to honestly answer that question, to locate in myself, like, what am I actually feeling? To actually get in touch with my own center. Nines being all gut, sort of being at the center of that gut triad. It's like, it's really actually hard for me to get in touch with my own body. Like, I have to work at it, be intentional about it. And. And that includes getting in touch with my own anger. That's a difficult thing for me to do. And then I did mistype myself. At first, I thought I was a three when I first encountered the Enneagram. And I think the reason why is because I had a lot of threes around me. And the part about the shadow of the nine that I kind of recoil from most is the characterization of the 9 is like lazy or sloth. And what I see in the three is drive and motivation. They stick at something and they do it and they achieve it. And I'm like, I want to do that. And also knowing that when a 9 is an integration and doing well and moving toward health, nines can look like threes. They look like they're pulling those things together. I could see that in myself. But I want to actually, like, embody those aspects of the three. How about you, Carmen?

[Carmen Acevedo Butcher]

I just want to say this is great hanging out with the cool kids because, I mean, as somebody who most of her life has worked with the four, I really am moved by hearing all your stories. I'm like, what if everybody in the world had been working with this? I think the self awareness would be just, you know, because the way we're talking about it, I mean, it really is an effort. And so for me, it has been four with a five wing for most of my life. And I want to look at your question, Cassidy, because for a while there, when I was much younger, because I'm the oldest of four in a family with an abusive father, very violent, I was the helper. I was the one. Do you need something? I'm going to get it for you before you even know you need it. Are we about to run out of something? Whether it's love or milk, I'm going to supply both. And my worth was all around, what do I give others? But then I realized, wait. As I got older, when I look back on it, I was like, yeah, no, that was just society telling me, as a woman in the south and in evangelical circles, you got to be a helper. But that wasn't really who I was. I mean, I love, you know, Richard's book because it says in their childhood, fours have often had the experience of the present being unbearable and meaningless. I escaped into beauty and literature and words, and I wanted to be just like my heroes. I wanted to write books and I wanted to teach. And because of the trauma in my background, I thought I was terribly unique and special. I had no idea how painful that was. And longing is so important. But what I realized was that I was in a great pain and this wasn't sustainable. And I need to work with this. So that's what I appreciate, the psychology behind it, trying to help us to heal our wounds. And so one of the Greatest revelations to me was that I needed to learn to mourn. So four is the individualist five, as you were saying, Cassidy the investigator. So I did love to learn in everything. It was a bit complicated with dyslexia, but I love to read and such. And that kind of helped me out a lot in kind of balancing the fourness. But I really had to learn how to mourn. So I appreciate, Drew, that you brought up how these help us work with the shadow, like to really own all aspects of our being. So, Mike, I know you and I share this fourness with other things. So what about you?

[Mike Petro]

Oh, I so appreciate that, Carmen, your willingness to help us find the courage to look at our wounds and find wisdom and are weird. There is such a gift. It's so cool how this tool can help us. I think for me, I mistyped a bunch. I first thought that I was a five and it was a season in life where I had a lot of public facing work. I was putting a lot of energy out into the world and I was finishing my 500 page dissertation. So I would have these moments where I would just crash and run out of extroverted energy and I would just want to run and hide in a corner. And then I realized, actually I just needed my friends who were fives to teach me the balance of introversion and extroversion and the value of alone time. Then I thought I was a 2 because I was working as a pastor and so I was taking care of a lot of people. And I'm an oldest sibling and it's in my nature to take care of the people around me. But then I just realized I needed my friends who were twos to teach me the balance of taking care of others and taking care of myself. And when I learned about the four's desire to be authentic and to be who they truly were, it just struck such a deep place in me because it hit how deeply I also want everyone around me to be free, to be authentically who they are in the unique way that each and every one of us are our own reflection of God. I love listening to how this knowledge has helped each of us in our own healing journey. Now we've just come out of a long exploration of Richard's book, the Tears of Things. And in that book, we looked at anger, we looked at grief, we talked a little bit about fear, and how all of this refines us in our ability to love, to show up and love well in a hurting world. I'm curious for each of you learning about your Number. And using the Enneagram as a tool, how has it helped you in your healing journey or helped you look at your anger or your fear or your grief and love?

[Paul Swanson]

Better, I think, as I look at my own kind of inner recesses of wrestling with my own nineness. And I failed to mention earlier, maybe it was my nine avoidance of my one wing. I want to make the world a better place. And I. I have found that my great work to do is in tapping into my own embodiment, my own feelings that are stored there. And I think a lot of my work has been tapping into the things that make me angry, the grief that I carry, and how to digest that in a way so I'm not avoiding it and I'm also not spilling it onto other people that I love and care for. And so it's continual. Multiple times this week I've taken a note and be like, ooh, there's that sharp pang of something I'm not dealing with. And it's usually the same things over and over again. Like, let's circle that one again and come out to it with more presence, with more intention, and try to show up in a way that brings the fullness to whatever project relationship that I'm in. Cassidy, what about you?

[Cassidy Hall]

Yeah, thanks for that, Paul. You know, Carmen, something you said earlier really triggered something for me. When I was going through the ordination process for the United Church of Christ, we had a conversation about the Enneagram. And in that conversation, we talked about how the Enneagram is often related to nurture as opposed to nature. And so I think about the work of our numbers. I think about little Carmen, little Cassidy, little Drew, little Paul, little Michael. And I think about the ways we may have first engaged in some of those coping skills. Like as a five, I would go away to feel my big feelings or to process something or to think something through. And this also makes me remember about. We've mentioned a couple times already about these head types, gut types, heart types. And so as a head type, which are five, six and sevens, we often live in our head, of course. And eight, nines and ones are gut types. Two, threes and fours are heart types. So as a head type, I have to remember to not intellectualize everything, which let me tell you, my therapist would be thrilled to hear me say that. But I can't think my way out or through everything. But also I have to lean on the wisdom of other types to show me how to use my full embodiment, my gut, my heart. And while some of Those tactics we've learned are also our gifts and our skills that we bring to each other. I think for me in particular, those feelings, anger, sadness and fear, those mostly live in the body. If I just think about those in my head, I'm not going to get anywhere with myself or with helping the world. So while my four wings certainly helps with that, I have to look to the wisdom of each other also, what our child selves have moved through to gain these particular wounds and wisdom to share with one another. Drew, how about you?

[Drew Jackson]

Gosh, it's been such a journey getting acquainted with my number. And I also, like Paul, failed to mention my wing. So I also am a 9 wing one. Paul, you talked about this desire to make the world a better place. One of the things that learning my number and my wing and all of that has helped me identify is just it is very hard for me to get motivated to do anything that doesn't feel like it's contributing to that vision. And if I can't figure out how it is, then it's. I disengage from it. Even just going back to, you know, Cassidy, you mentioned childhood and the things that would get me excited. I grew up in the church, and so I was the little boy who had dreams and visions of being a pastor early. Because that was the thing that I could identify as. Like, this is the path to contributing to something positive in the world. And I saw that early on. And it wasn't just like an idea in my mind. It was deep in my center, the thing that I couldn't shake. Being able to see that about myself has been a helpful guide in terms of decision making. I have to ask the question, how can I, through committing to this, contribute to something more, just more beautiful, more whole, more loving? I have to be able to somehow answer those questions. When I think about this question in terms of all that's happening in our world today, I want to contribute to something. And there's this other side of me that wants to avoid any kind of thing that is hard, any kind of conflict. It's a complete retreating into a numbness of sorts. Staying in touch with my anger, staying in touch with sadness and disappointment and frustration is part of my spiritual practice. It's part of why I write poetry, because it's one of the ways that allows me to access those things. It's essential for me in order for me to continue coming fully alive. You know, growing up in a super conservative fundamentalist church, Baptist church, there was a stigma around anger. Anger is sin. So I'VE had to learn over the years that the emotion of anger is not sin, that it is actually a God given gift. To learn how to access that and to learn how to harness that anger is actually the path. It's not a denial of it. The other thing I'll say too is that I was working on something with a group of people and someone told me very directly that the whole project is suffering because you aren't stepping into the fullness of your gifts. And I recognize that that's one of the things that a 9 does, is holds back, disappears into the background, doesn't step into the fullness of the gifts that they have to offer to a space. And so for me, part of my healing and growing in my leadership is don't be afraid to offer the fullness of your gifts into whatever space you're in. And that's been complicated, I think when we start talking about things like race and gender on top of the enneagram. And I have had to navigate this reality of being a black man, moving through majority white spaces and having this message sent to me that I need to be small, that I need to shrink, that I need to not occupy the fullness of the space that I can occupy. It's been letting go of those false narratives to say, no, I'm going to step into the fullness of who I am and offer all of my gifts into this space and not shy away from that. So that's been a part of my healing journey as well.

[Carmen Acevedo Butcher]

I want to just say, Drew, what you just said, it shows how we have these different patterns and there are so many similarities between them. Because you talk about making yourself small as a black man and I think as a woman who grew up brown. And I'm a different number, maybe, but there's so many similarities between these. I'm thinking about how for fours, depression is something that they do. I'm so glad I'm not depressed now. But like, you sit there and you, instead of feeling your anger and feeling your sadness and crying your tears, you take it all in and you internalize and think, I am wrong. And I wanted a way out of that. I was like, this can't be right. If God is love, help me find this. And I remember praying to God, okay, yeah, I would like to write books that make sense and make beauty and contribute to, to the betterment of the world somehow. But you know what? I really want to be real. And I didn't mean I want to be real in a way you could put on instagram I meant I really want to be real when it's just, you know, how Dr. B used to say, who are you? When the band goes home? Like, I want it to be real, where it was just Carmen with Carmen or me with the people who know me the most. So it was super helpful to use this tool of the four to help me see. I wanted to embrace the ordinary. I already had a love of that. And so the thing that made me special and isolated was trauma, really. And so I let go of that. It used to be I would look at other people and think, how do they do that? And so there was a kind of an envy. It wasn't really so deep, except I would look at people and think, I wish I could do that. And what I realized was I was actually happy for them to do that, but I wanted to do, like, self actualize myself. I think of Anne Yolandov who said, you know, when you heal yourself, you're healing the world. And I'm grateful for this as a tool. And I just want to add one thing. I'm reading Jim and Kirsten's book on the Enneagram, and one thing that they say in there, they say we begin to loosen our grip on fixed identity and open to a boundarylessness sense of being. There is wisdom in learning to relate to our patterns not as fixed truths, but as temporary forms slowly dissolving into union. So it's not even just becoming the best four I can be, but going beyond that personality into love.

[Mike Petro]

So good. I have so much I could say because y' all are firing my imagination to such an intense degree. I will say this first, you know, being a heart type as an enneagram. 4 Wing 5, one of my greatest healing tasks is not to get swept away in my emotions. My anger and my fear and my sadness can be so intense. And then as a four with such a strong desire for authenticity, I realize I hate being put into boxes that are too small. I've suffered a lot of loss and a lot of trauma in my life, but the worst pain for me is always being misunderstood or not seen. And that translates to how I feel about others I absolutely cannot stand. It fuels my anger to a white hot rage when other folks are put into boxes or held back from becoming the fullness of who they are in their own unique identity. And at the same time, I've been frustrated when I feel like folks that I care about are not living out of the depth of their authenticity. And so what I've had to learn is that authenticity is a journey, and we never get there. And we're all a little bit of a mystery to ourselves and to sort of, like, love that in other people and sort of try to love people where they are in their own journey. But again, to recognize the ways that I can feel called to help others find freedom from the things that constrict them. As an enneagram, for having the quest for true identity as something that. That drives me in my heart and in my bones, that can get narcissistic really, really quickly. Particularly living in a culture where pathology has become our new mythology and self help and self healing has become sort of the great story that we find ourselves in. That's beautiful. I think there's no greater thing, but we always need to remember, to put our healing in the service of healing the world. So the real trick for me as a four is to let my quest for authenticity become a bridge and not a barrier to, instead of navel gazing, be looking down for the umbilical cord that connects me to source and to others, and to let my authenticity inspire me to see and hear the authenticity in others. But why would I tell you that when I could tell you that Howard Thurman said it so much better than I did when he talked about each of us learning to listen to the sound of the genuine and in our own lives, how listening for the sound of the genuine actually connects you to other people. I love this. So I'm curious. How has the Enneagram helped you understand those around you and maybe even move beyond understanding to standing in solidarity and compassion with others?

[Carmen Acevedo Butcher]

Yeah.

[Cassidy Hall]

You know, to your point and everything you just shared, I think that the Enneagram is a tool to move us towards solidarity. And I think in understanding my Enneagram type, I better understand the roles we all play in this challenging and terribly painful world. The other day, I was reading Rev. Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. S letter from a Birmingham Jail, and I got stuck on a line that we've all heard numerous times, but it just felt all the more potent. And in that letter, he writes, we are caught in an inescapable network of mutuality tied together in a single garment of destiny. Whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly. Fannie Lou Hamer says, nobody's free until everybody's free. I don't want to sound cliche because I mean this deeply. I think the Enneagram reminds us of these kinds of truths. Because the Enneagram forms a circle. The numbers are connected. What hurts you, hurts me. Your wounds bring me these gifts. Bring me this wisdom and vice versa. So I think this. This wisdom that we can gain from each other. I think it has to begin with solidarity. It has to begin with seeing each other fully. And Michael, as you were saying, authentically so. And it reminds us that we need each other. I fear that we misuse the Enneagram. If we don't see it in this way, and if we only see it for a tool for self revelation, then I think we lose the action piece of what this is all about.

[Carmen Acevedo Butcher]

Well, it taught me that I love to listen. There's almost nothing I'd rather do. I find other people endlessly fascinating. I guess for me, I think the world systems are created to not remind us that the world is sacred. Instead, it's more, you know, about money and greed and status. And so I really appreciate this deep listening that I feel is a part of my essential thread. And it reminds me of Catherine of Genoa who said, my deepest me is God. And she actually said something a bit more detailed than that. She said, in Dio e I mio, essere il mio me. But what she's literally saying is the deepest part of me is divine. And that is something that I try to listen for in everybody. And I read recently that Ram Dass had on his altar photos of people who were hard to love, saying that until he could love those people that were hard to love, as much as he loved the people he found easy to love, then he wasn't really loving. And so this, for me, is what 4 really asked me to do. Not just love the students who are easy, but to love all the students. That's one example.

[Drew Jackson]

The Enneagram has been a tool for me that has helped me discover just the depths of my own self. Like that there is a lot to me. And to discover that about myself is also to discover that that's true of everyone else on the planet. I think of James Baldwin's quote from his book the Devil Finds Work. He says, to encounter oneself is to encounter the other, and this is love. If I know that my soul trembles, I know that yours does too. And if I can respect this, both of us can live. I think the Enneagram has been such a deep, beautiful invitation into that reality. That part of loving my neighbor. And Jesus said this, right, is learning to know and then love who I am. But also like that moves me. That should move me not to be so insular and navel gazing and focused on myself, but actually moves me toward my neighbor, toward the other, toward those whom I might have put in the category of enemy. It's been that a beautiful invitation for me in that way.

[Mike Petro]

I love this so much, friends. It's such a profound reminder that each person is a gift. Richard says that the Enneagram gives us nine different doorways to knowing God. Richard talks about the way of the wound and this reminder that each one of us at some point in life, is wounded. And that wound might actually set us out on our wandering. It might shape the path of our life. It might give us our wondering, the questions that become ours to ask and answer. But in staying faithful to that, it also leads us to our wisdom, our unique wisdom to share with others. And I think that leads us to our work in the world. And we're talking about the Enneagram at such a particular moment in time. There's so much hurt and there's so much injustice, and so many of our listeners are looking at everything that's broken in the world, saying, what can I do? I'm just one person. How can I help? And how can I make a difference? I'm curious. How do you think the Enneagram, in putting us in touch with our wounds and our wisdom, can help us discern what is our unique work to do in the world? How's it guided you in doing that, and how do you think it can help our listeners as we go through this, this season?

[Cassidy Hall]

I think about that Baldwin quote, Drew, that you just shared. In that sense, you know, the Enneagram really points us to the body of Christ, points us to another way of looking at the body of Christ, another way of living into the body of Christ, another way of understanding what it might look like for us to really give and receive these vastness of gifts between us. So for me, as a five one who's often introverted and solitary, it is crucial for me to get uncomfortable, to do that shadow work and grow up in my number to do the growth work, to show up and get uncomfortable so I can live out who I am in the healthiest way possible. And that's just it. Living out our numbers does mean recognizing our gifts, of course, also. But the Enneagram can help us to hone in on that skill set or to grow more deeply aware of that art giftedness, so we can grow up in that and really show up for each other.

[Mike Petro]

So you're saying it's not the meniogram, it's the Wienneagram?

[Cassidy Hall]

No, no, we're not saying that.

[Mike Petro]

I've been trying to work that into the script for so Long. I'm so sorry, Carmen. You were about to say something brilliant.

[Carmen Acevedo Butcher]

I love that. For me, it's definitely helped me in the contemplative path because it's a psychological tool, really. It brings psychology into the conversation, even if we don't quite explicitly name it, with its history and everything from Evagrius to Yule and different ways that people were trying to figure out their lives. And I think self knowledge is always worth it, as Jim Finley often says. You know, and as the Gospel of Thomas says, as hard as self knowledge can be, sometimes it's even worse. Like not to get it, like not to want it. And after seeing the way my father lived his life, one of my main goals was I wanted to be somebody who was genuinely kind to others. And then I learned along the way, using the Enneagram and such, that that kindness I was extending to others, I didn't have much of it for myself. The more I can feel at home with myself then the more I can feel at home in community and enrich the. The community. So, yeah, for me, it's all about really self knowledge, which means every person knowledge. I mean, we're all connected. It's so easy to forget. How about you, Mike?

[Mike Petro]

In helping me find sort of my lever and a place to stand, my place to make a difference, I know that it's going to be connected to helping others be free to be their own wonderful, weird selves and to be whole and be healthy. And I know that I can listen and learn and also see how my wounds can trip me up and put me into a place where I'm not being sustainable, where I'm enacting my wounds on the people around me. It's a process. It's a process, but part of it is recognizing that I can't do everything. And I can give myself permission to lean into the things that are natural. For me, I had a mentor who used to say, the pain that you can feel is the pain that you can heal. And that had a double meaning. The first thing is you have to be willing to feel the pain if you're going to heal it. And that takes courage. And then the second is that the pain that you feel most deeply will very often be connected to your work. But that only works if I'm listening deeply to the people around me. So that doesn't become an excuse to let myself off the hook. It's an ongoing process.

[Drew Jackson]

Yeah. For me, I wrote a short poem that really connects to this question of how has the Enneagram helped you Find your work. It's short and it simply says, when I know who I am with nothing to prove, it frees me to do the work of love. When I know who I am with nothing to prove, it frees me to do work of love. And that sense of like knowing myself deeply, getting to know who I am, getting to know what are the things that make me come alive, what are the things that break my heart. There's something about, as Carmen said, that self knowledge that actually frees me up to be engaged in the work of loving the world fully as myself, not as a ploy to fill something in me that I'm searching to get from them, but like truly to love them without a need to prove myself to somebody. I often say to myself, you have nothing to prove, nothing to protect, nothing to possess. There's an openness that I can love with when I'm deeply grounded in who I am. The inspiration for that poem was in John, chapter 13, when Jesus washes the feet of his disciples. And there's a verse at the beginning of John 13 where John writes, Jesus, and I'm paraphrasing here, but he essentially says, Jesus, knowing who he was, knowing where he came from and where he was going, got up to wash their feet. Like there was something about Jesus's deep knowing of who he was in the fullness of who he was that then freed him to get on his hands and knees and wash feet and do the work of love that was his to do at that moment in time. And so I think the Enneagram has been a tool for me in that aspect of love, of saying, how do I get to know myself deeply so that I can be free to love others without strings attached?

[Mike Petro]

I love that so, so, so much, speaking as an enneagram. 4. Who just doesn't like to be put in boxes? The Enneagram. Any kind of typology can be a way for us to box other people up and shut them down and assume that we know them. Or it can be an invitation to get curious. It can be ways that we do what we just did, which is use it as tools to listen deeply to each other and try to share parts of our own experience. Nothing would break my heart more than if our listeners just tune into the episode that they feel like they relate to as their number. This journey. As we go through the nine faces of God and the nine nine invitations to self understanding and understanding others, in each number, each one of us will find an invitation to love ourselves more deeply. Each one of us in each number will find someone that we love. Each one of us in each number will find something that frustrates us about ourselves. And each one of us in each number will find someone that frustrates us. And so much of it, every single piece of it, is an invitation to love and to learn and to listen deeply. So I'm so excited to be taking this journey with all of you, with Richard, with our guests, with our wonderful listeners. Friends, would you give everybody a one sentence hope for our journey and our time together over the next few months.

[Carmen Acevedo Butcher]

May you be open to curiosity, blessed by self compassion, and find joy in letting go of the small ego.

[Drew Jackson]

When you know who you are with nothing to prove, it frees you to do the work of love. May that be your experience of our journey together.

[Cassidy Hall]

May we all take on and have the audacity to humble ourselves, to know ourselves, and to lean into the action of solidarity that knowing ourselves calls us into.

[Mike Petro]

May our wounds lead us out on our wandering. May they cause us to wonder. May our wounds lead us to our wisdom and our our work in the world. May they help us find our weird and above all, may they connect us to everyone else in our wonderful human family. Thanks folks for joining us. We're looking forward to taking this journey with you together. And just a parting thought, special thanks to our friends in the band U2 who recently released this song called the Tears of Things, inspired by Richard's latest book. You can find it in their EP Days of Ash. All the places that music live, Apple, Spotify, YouTube. Thanks friends. Thanks for listening to this podcast by the center for Action and Contemplation, an

[Father Richard Rohr]

educational nonprofit that introduces seekers to the

[Mike Petro]

contemplative Christian path of trans transformation. To learn more about our work, Visit [e-mail] Everything belongs is made possible thanks to the generosity of our supporters and the shared work of Mike Petro, Paul

[Carmen Acevedo Butcher]

Swanson, Drew Jackson, Carmen Acevedo Butcher, Jenna Kuiper, Izzy Spitz, Megan Hare, Sarah Palmer,

[Mike Petro]

Dorothy Abrams, Brandon Strange, Vanessa Yee, Cassidy

[Father Richard Rohr]

hall and me, Corey Wayne. The music you hear is composed and

[Mike Petro]

provided by our friends Hammock and we'd also like to thank Sound on Studios for all of their work in post production. From the high desert of New Mexico, we wish you peace and every good.

[Carmen Acevedo Butcher]

Do you feel called to walk a more contemplative path? The center for Action and Contemplation Contemplation is an educational nonprofit supporting the journey of inner transformation. Our programs and resources will help grow your consciousness, deepen your prayer practice and strengthen your compassionate engagement with the world. Learn more about our resources, such as publications, podcasts, email series and [e-mail].

[Father Richard Rohr]

sam.