← Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward
Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward
Jeremiah: The Patterns That Carry Us Across with Dr. Walter Fluker
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Carmen Acevedo Butcher
You're listening to a podcast by the center for Action and Contemplation. To learn more, visit cac.org Once again,
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Corey Wayne
welcome back to the Everything Belongs podcast with Father Richard Rohrer. Each season we've explored one of Richard's books. This season we are taking a deep dive, chapter by chapter, into the book the Tears of Things. Of course, you don't have to read along with us to listen to each fantastic episode and interview and get some something nourishing out of it, but hey, we'd love it if you did. Each episode, we travel over to Richard's house to discuss a chapter with him. And then we're joined by a special guest who helps us live the teachings forward by taking a deep dive and asking new questions that apply to our lives to think about Richard's teachings in new ways. And so today we'll be talking about chapter five, Jeremiah, the patterns that carry us across Jeremiah, who's often known as the reluctant prophet, which is maybe something that a lot of us can relate to. Jeremiah models an intimate relationship with God and the transformation of the prophet from anger to lamentation into praise. Paul Swanson and I will be joined by by the wisdom of one of my favorite conversation partners of all time, the Reverend Dr. Walter Fluker. Dr. Fluker is a Howard Thurman scholar and a precious and respected friend of our dearly beloved, late Dr. Barbara Holmes. And I have to tell you, Dr. B's spirit was so present with us in this conversation. In this discussion of Jeremiah, we explore the work of God as a trickster in our lives and the intimate invitation that God offers us when the prophetic is near. Finally, we talk about the necessity of finding joy in our sadness and sadness in our joy. So many of us live inside stories that are too small. And it's a lot like walking through life with shoes that are just a little bit too tight. In this episode, I'd like you to think about how anger, sadness and joy are all different ways that you can be broken out of those far too small stories and step into the expansive story of love that wants to be constantly unfolding in your life. From the center for action and contemplation, I'm mike petro.
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Paul Swanson
I'm paul swanson.
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Carmen Acevedo Butcher
I'm carmen ossevant, fado butcher.
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Father Richard Rohr
And I'm drew jackson.
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Corey Wayne
And this is everything belongs. Richard and Paul. As always, it is great to see you. We're here to talk about the sobering chapter five, Jeremiah, the patterns that carry us across. Richard, I'd love to start this conversation Believe it or not, not by reading a passage from your book, but actually referencing a book that you reference. In the Tears of Things. There's a book called We Survive the End of the World Lessons from Native America on Apocalypse and Hope, written by Stephen Charleston. Stephen gives us a definition of the prophet that you reference earlier in the book.
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Father Richard Rohr
Oh, yes, yes.
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Corey Wayne
As I was reading this chapter, one of the best. It's so good. And as I was thinking about Jeremiah, I couldn't help but think back to this.
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Father Richard Rohr
Oh, excellent. Go ahead.
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Corey Wayne
So here's. Here's what Stephen writes. I need to say a word about the prophets themselves. Prophets do not arise out of a vacuum. They're part of the apocalyptic process. They appear first as an early warning system within any culture at risk. They fulfill the classic role of the prophet as a herald of a vision of what is to come. Then, as the apocalypse becomes ever more real, they serve as teachers to instruct people about what to do to end the suffering and alter the course of destruction. Finally, they're mystics who describe the future and guide people to find it within themselves. In carrying out these roles in the apocalyptic process, the prophet strives to stand on solid ground even while the earth beneath their feet is moving. That is, prophets not only talk about the future, but the past. They ground their prophecy in the bedrock spiritual traditions of their people. They recall the ancient stories and covenants between the divine and human beings. They reinterpret ancient teachings and remind people of old promises. Prophets are immersed in tradition even as they talk about how that tradition will need to change to meet new apocalyptic challenges.
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Father Richard Rohr
Brilliant.
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Corey Wayne
Gosh, if that's not Jeremiah, I don't know what is.
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Father Richard Rohr
That's good.
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Corey Wayne
I think about Jeremiah as you tell us about him in this prophesying to his people that an apocalypse was coming, that they were going to be conquered by a foreign power and carried off into captivity, that they needed to go with it, and then giving them wisdom for how to survive as he continued to be a prophet into that captivity.
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Father Richard Rohr
Yes, it builds on what I tried to say earlier about Amos addressing the collective. And he's saying it better right there, and we just don't almost know how to do that. Religion is so much convicting individual people of being sinners that addressing the collective of its structural illusion is a practice we have to learn.
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Corey Wayne
One of the things that I find so sobering about learning about the prophet Jeremiah with you and about Stephen's definition of what a prophet is is that there's no guarantee of political victory or even that the political system that you're in won't collapse if that's what a prophet's job is, is to warn us of impending apocalypse. But they still give us ancient wisdom that can show us how we got into the mess that we're in and then carry us through into the future. But that's scary.
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Father Richard Rohr
It's scary to think it's scary and so appropriate right now. I think especially those of us in America, with our manifest destiny and our inherent optimism, which has some beauty to it, we just cannot imagine that the majority rule in America would not be right. And we've been unconvinced of that in recent elections. My God. Could the majority, in fact, be an illusion in illusion? That's what we're facing right now. But if the culture itself is numb, as I think Walter Brueggemann says, how can you expect a numb culture to elect enlightened candidates?
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Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Yeah.
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Paul Swanson
I want to take us back in the time machine back to 1970 to talk about your own relationship to the words of Jeremiah. So in 1970, you chose a certain passage as your first reading at your first Mass. Can you tell us what that reading was and why you chose it and then read it for us?
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Father Richard Rohr
I can remember it's still marked in my Jerusalem Bible from my study the previous year as, oh, this is what I'm going to have. It was the only reading I was certain of for my first Mass. And I think it's the only prophet who begins in the first chapter with his call. Little did I think. Little did I think how much it would predict what I was going to end up doing. I'm even in awe of it.
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Paul Swanson
Do you mind reading that calling of Jeremiah and what, you wrote your first Mass, that passage for us?
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Father Richard Rohr
I sure will. It's on page 66 now. The word of the Lord came to me saying, before I formed you in the womb, I knew you. And before you were born, I consecrated you. I know. I read that as a promise to all of humanity, not just prophets. I appointed you a prophet to the nations. And I said, ah, Lord God, truly I do not know how to speak, for I am only a boy. I was sitting there, 26 years old, and I looked like a boy. I had hair. But the Lord said to me, do not say I am only a boy, for you shall go to all to whom I send, and you shall speak whatever I command you. Do not be afraid of them, for I am with you to deliver you, says the Lord. Then the Lord put out his hand and touched my mouth and The Lord said to me, now I have put my words into your mouth today. I appoint you over nations, there's the social critique, and over kingdoms to pluck up and to pull down, not to convict individual people, they're sinners. To destroy and overthrow, to build and to plant. There's the whole summary of the prophetic vocation as a critic of the collective. So Jeremiah is bringing Amos pattern home as an entire worldview.
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Paul Swanson
Yeah. What a. A calling to name in your own beginning of your own work as a prophetic priest, I would say. But how does that passage hit you differently today than it did 55 years ago? Knowing what you've known, experiencing what you've
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Father Richard Rohr
experienced, it strikes me that life is like waves coming on a shore and they just keep overlapping the previous wave. And the reading became a prophecy for me that my God, this is indeed happening. But it was always a wave lapping up on my shore, not me pushing the wave or making the wave. Really just noticing the wave and trying to ride it. Trying to ride it. It still keeps me in awe of how God unfolds your life with deep gratitude and deep appreciation.
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Corey Wayne
The other thing I love, Richard, you referenced this in the chapter, is the way that Jeremiah speaks back to God throughout the course of his lifetime like no one else. What is it about the way that Jeremiah talks to God that is instructive for us and like you said, is like no one else?
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Father Richard Rohr
You know, those of us who grew up with devotional literature, we had our Catholic version, you had your evangelical version. We got used to soft and pretty words, and they have their place. When you're suffering, you need them and God gives them. But boy, Jeremiah doesn't give you soft and pretty words. It's just the struggle, the intense.
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Corey Wayne
In Origen's commentary on Jeremiah, which is one of my favorite things of all time, he makes a lot of this. That Jeremiah says to God, you tricked me. And I was tricked. But it's this idea that the reluctant prophet was tricked into being a prophet, and then that God would use language of anger to set Jeremiah up, to trick him into a revelation of divine love as what was really behind it.
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Father Richard Rohr
Yeah, Anybody who's in an extended love relationship, like I think the prophet realizes that they have given themselves to one lover, one truth teacher, one pattern setter.
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Corey Wayne
I love how even when we were talking about Hosea, you talked about Hosea moves us from parent child love of the divine to spousal love, which is more of a singular devotion. But there's almost, and I don't Mean to be heretical here.
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Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Almost.
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Corey Wayne
The implication of more equality in the relationship.
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Father Richard Rohr
That's right.
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Corey Wayne
A relationship, a healthy marriage, I think, requires a lot honesty. And so what I see in what you're saying about Jeremiah is that he not only moves from anger to sadness to love, but he prays his anger and his sadness and his love. In his conversation with the divine, it seems like he feels like he can express his anger and his sadness to God. That's pretty powerful.
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Father Richard Rohr
It sure is. When you're so trusting in another person's love that you can fight them. That's the human experience. Cause she, He, God will accept me even in the fighting. That's beautiful.
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Paul Swanson
And you kind of look forward to the fight.
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Father Richard Rohr
Cause you know it'll resolve.
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Paul Swanson
Yeah, it's held within a. It's already resolved, but you haven't gotten there yet.
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Corey Wayne
Do you have any guidance for us and our listeners on how we can bring that degree of honesty to our prayer, especially in times right now that feel apocalyptic, where there is so much anger and sadness to feel?
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Father Richard Rohr
If you feel divine love is extended to you simply when you do it right, when you obey, you will always be mistrustful of ever disagreeing with the Master. But if you realize God has dignified you with thought, with experience, with reason, with exception, what I call disorder, you're not afraid to speak that exception, even to God. If we don't have a new definition of love for God, we're in trouble as a religion. If God is just like everybody else, which he appears to be, in America, he looks like a businessman. You've heard me say this. But an infinite lover, that's the only thing near big enough to save the world. And that's the discovery that Jeremiah comes to, particularly in chapter 31. And then he repeats it a number of places and calls it the New Covenant. How daring that was of him. I mean, they knew what the covenant was. It was made with Moses on Mount Sinai. Are you telling me it's out of date? Yes. Because you've never understood it. You've understood it as love conditioned on obedience to the law. And I'm telling you, God's love is so perfect, even when you disobey the law, I'll love you more. That's the leap forward we find in Jeremiah, then confirmed by Ezekiel, Isaiah. It's the leap into the New Testament. It doesn't fit logic. It doesn't fit. I did this. You give that. You've heard me say it a hundred times. In the New Covenant, you stop counting and Measuring and weighing. And that's what gives away a person who's been picked up by the hare, like Habakkuk, as in the book of Daniel, set in a new place. How did I get here? That I don't demand coherence or equivalence or equation. God does it. God can't. Or God will never transform any of us.
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Corey Wayne
What I find so comforting about that, I think about Jeremiah prophesying to this deeply traumatized group of people. First a deeply afraid group of people who are going to go through this terrible apocalypse, and then a deeply traumatized group of people who've been conquered and carried off to a foreign land. You know, trauma is loss and shock that overwhelms the psyche because it's just too big for us to make sense of it. And what you're talking about is, I think the only thing that can really overcome trauma, which is being dropped into a love that is even bigger than the trauma, than the loss and the trauma.
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Father Richard Rohr
He said it.
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Paul Swanson
What a word.
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Father Richard Rohr
And how needed right now because it feels like much of the planet is in collective ptsd. And that's not being dramatic. Every continent, a different shape to it and the shape to the whole planet that we call the climate crisis. But it is a crisis and we're seeing it in the high amount of mental illness in our kids. They already pick it up. Yeah, yeah.
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Paul Swanson
You were talking earlier about marriage and about the idea of one person. And I know you've been using this kind of lovely image that you've been sharing with at weddings around walking the plank. And I think it's helpful maybe to bring in now to have you unpack that because as individuals living in this moment in time when there is these polycrisis and this sense of overwhelm, how do we allow ourselves to walk the plank of love?
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Father Richard Rohr
Walking the plank is just a post pirate lovely metaphor for the risk of love or the leap of faith or what every person goes through in the night before they get down on their knees and engage to their girlfriend. It's am I really wanting to commit my whole life to. To this one person? And they say it feels like dying. I remember when I had to lay on the sanctuary floor when I took my final vows. It's just, okay, down on my knees, down on my chest. It was physically a surrendering which we couldn't possibly have understood.
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Corey Wayne
One of my favorite passages from Thomas Merton, I've been meditating on for 30 years. Read it when I was 18 years old. He says hope is proportionate to detachment and that God empties our hands so that we can work with them. And I wonder if sort of when you commit to something, you are also letting go of the results to a certain extent. You know, when you walk the plank, that's true. To marry your partner, you don't know at the end of the day what's going to happen. When you speak truth to power, when you walk the prophetic path, there is no guarantee of victory. And Merton seems to be saying that we don't find our hope in attachment to a particular set of results like Jeremiah prophesying when he knows that defeat is inevitable.
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Father Richard Rohr
Yeah.
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Corey Wayne
How do we walk the plank into that sort of having hope, doing the right thing, also not being assured of results?
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Father Richard Rohr
You know, what we're given in the whole world of belief is ontological hope. It's not. I know that's a big word, forgive me, but philosophical, cosmological, logical hope about the nature of the universe, that the whole thing is unto life, the whole thing is good at its core. The whole thing is the promise of God. When you have that deep ontological hope, you can walk the little planks and say, okay, I can lose here. Well, the phrase we use anymore is lose the battle, but win the war. But imagine if you don't have that ontological big trust that reality is good. I've seen several movies in the last year where a man losing his job or losing his marriage partner to death. They just have no. No skills to know how to survive that. Because for them, that is ontological death. What we're given in faith is. There's a bigger picture. What I used to call in the cosmic egg. It's not just my story, it's not just our story, it's the story. And the story says the whole plank is walking to an infinite ocean of love.
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Corey Wayne
Holy moly.
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Father Richard Rohr
Even if my child dies, even if I lose my company, even if my house is burned down, what a gift that is for people. I don't know how the world is going to continue to move ahead without some modicum of that kind of ontological hope or, you know, Viktor Frankl just called it meaning.
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Corey Wayne
I think, too, about Jim saying that, you know, once we're absolutely grounded in the absolute love of God, we realize that it protects us from nothing but sustains us in everything.
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Father Richard Rohr
Very good boy. Does that quote work there.
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Paul Swanson
Right?
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Corey Wayne
So, Richard, this is something that I'm talking myself into.
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Father Richard Rohr
Hope, saying these things or hearing you.
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Corey Wayne
We're watching the light in your eyes. It's pretty great. And there's A growing up there. It seems like what I read in this chapter, what I hear in Jeremiah and what's emerging and what we're saying right now is that we have to grow up into this, into this grounding in the absolute love of God. And it seems to me like the biggest thing that we have to get past is this idea of winners and losers. There you go, right? Scarcity and competition reward punishment, right? In the Bible you give Cain and Abel, Jacob and Esau.
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Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Right?
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Father Richard Rohr
Soccer might be a wonderful sport, but it's not a ferridom for life.
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Corey Wayne
Well, and even the competition. Right. Again, I think about these stories. Joseph and his brothers, Kronos eating his children in Greek mythology, all the way down to Freud's Oedipal complex. This patriarchal idea that if something is good for me to have it, I have to take it away from you because there isn't enough good to go around. So I love Richard. When you write on page 72, Jeremiah 31 is frankly a total changing of the guard. And what is being guarded is only the human capacity for intimate, reciprocal love. How do we move past this to unconditional love and gratuitous forgiveness, the way it's described in Jeremiah 31? How do we grow up into that?
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Father Richard Rohr
It's always going to be a surrendering. I don't care what culture, what age you live in, you cannot logically work up to it by tit for tat, tit for tat, tit for tat. Quid pro quo. All of life is quid pro quo. When I see the extent of exhilaration in the winning of a basketball game or tournament, you're happy for them. But that's just a victory. At the level of my story and the beginnings of our story, you haven't yet won at the level of the story which encompasses, includes, overcomes all of the failures at my story and our story. Those are just fun, but they aren't the truth yet.
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Corey Wayne
I love that idea that the story is love. And that's the bigger story that we need to walk the plank and have the courage to get into by getting out of our small stories of competition and retribution and winners and losers.
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Paul Swanson
How does this, beyond either or thinking breakthrough into collective consciousness to kind of break through into this massified consciousness towards a larger narrative field of love.
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Father Richard Rohr
What is it in culture that still admires a Nelson Mandela, a Martin Luther King, that tells me that we still have soul, that we still don't? That's a level higher. A couple levels higher. Three levels higher. The Fact that we can still for the most part not entirely admire it and look up to it. We still know there is third way thinking beyond the tired dualisms. We still love people who live there, who live in an ability to love their enemy, to forgive their enemy. And there's a deep shame and disappointment. And leaders who can't. Who just keep trying to make us afraid and keep trying to divide us. And we're really suffering from that right now because the divisive leaders are appearing all over the planet. It's the easy laugh, as a comedian would say. To get people to be afraid or. Or to hate their neighbor is so easy. Why can't people realize they're being used? Can't you see you're being taught fear? Can't you see you're being taught hate?
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Paul Swanson
The capacity to recognize a Nelson Mandela, a Mother Teresa. That is a sign of there's something that is retained within that sees that there is a deep goodness and embodiment.
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Father Richard Rohr
There are still good people. Yeah.
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Paul Swanson
And then our work is to kind of move in that direction. How do I become them more like that?
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Father Richard Rohr
Who's worth following?
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Paul Swanson
Yes. And I. I think about this because they are threatening. Because they are a threat. They're threatening because of.
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Father Richard Rohr
Yeah.
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Paul Swanson
What they're willing to do in and for. And with love.
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Father Richard Rohr
They break the logic. And if we're tied to the logic, we will call them dangerous bad people. I cannot allow the logic of culture to be broken. And what does Girard say? The core building block of culture is scapegoating. I think he's right. Placing our self doubt and self hatred elsewhere. Not me, but you. Once you learn that scapegoating is an illusion and a lie, you'll never be the same. You can't live the same. Put it that way. You watch your mind and you see it doing it. Darling. If only we could convince the whole world of this. So many of our wars would cease, so many of our prejudices would just fall. But it doesn't happen. It didn't happen that easily for Jeremiah or for Jesus. Jeremiah might be the best model of all the prophets that Jesus appears to imitate.
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Corey Wayne
It changes the way that I read Jesus when I think about that. Because I'm sure Jeremiah talks about his whole thing of. Well, I say Origen's reading of Jeremiah. You tricked me and I was tricked. Origen talks about divine deceit, but it's a deceit that educates. And he says that whenever you see God threatening punishment, it's a trick. It's God using Essentially baby talk. Using. Using language that.
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Father Richard Rohr
That's brilliant.
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Corey Wayne
Immature people can understand.
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Father Richard Rohr
That guy gets so much. Right. I don't know.
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Corey Wayne
But the idea was to. To then lead you beyond that to the love that's behind it. And I can't help but think of that passage that I love so much that says perfect love casts out all fear. And that's just getting you to the point that you realize that perfect love is behind it.
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Paul Swanson
I think that's fascinating because I feel like. Is that sort of threat, a teaching tool? Yeah. To you think about it with parents and children where, you know, there is the look both ways before you cross the street because we don't want a car to hit you.
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Corey Wayne
Yeah.
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Paul Swanson
Or you. You hold these very real life examples. But it sounds like a threat, like if you don't do this, this will happen.
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Father Richard Rohr
Of course. And go ahead, develop that.
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Paul Swanson
And so just holding on to what you're just sharing.
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Corey Wayne
Oh, gosh.
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Father Richard Rohr
Is this a.
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Paul Swanson
A structural teaching tool to break open?
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Corey Wayne
Yeah.
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Paul Swanson
Beyond like you're saying, the story behind the story. What's waiting there that draws us deeper.
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Corey Wayne
I think the number one problem when people read scripture, especially the first 2/3 of it, is they confuse descriptive language with prescriptive language.
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Father Richard Rohr
That's right.
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Corey Wayne
If you do this, something bad will happen is descriptive. It's not prescriptive. It's not saying, if you do this, God's going to get you. Right. But we. I think we don't know how to do that.
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Paul Swanson
Yeah.
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Corey Wayne
Jeremiah masterfully flips the script.
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Paul Swanson
Yeah. And you land this, this chapter with this section you call. You talk about the threat of unconditional love. I love that. I think. Beautiful phraseology. And you bring in this quote from the past from Jeremiah 31:33. I will put my law within them, and I will write on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they shall be my people. So much is held within this verse. This new covenant is all up to God. Our obedient behavior is not required. And this should be liberating. And yet I agree with your title. I agree with what we were talking about, how we interpret this as threatening. Whether it's unconditional love or a teaching tool to break us through to unconditional love. Yeah. All those listening at home, I can imagine wrestling with this. Richard, what might you say to them to help invite them into falling into this unconditional love? If they're seen as a threat, how can they be invited to fall into this unconditional ocean of love?
- [31:17]
Father Richard Rohr
You have to know that love is not a getting, it is a giving up of control. How do you teach that? And then you do get, but you're not in charge anymore. And so it's giving up control and giving up being in charge at the same time. That's why as the book proceeds, I take on the win lose paradigm so much.
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Paul Swanson
Right.
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Father Richard Rohr
Because that's key. And when you frame your whole culture on win lose paradigm, you have to address that collective lie to preach the gospel. And we're only in our early stages of understanding that. I think, yeah, we thought we could preach the gospel to a win lose culture and let them keep the win lose paradigm in place. We can hold onto our collective game of money and power and war and still know what Jesus is talking about or what love is talking about. Let's just use Jesus and love interchangeably. It's the same message.
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Corey Wayne
It's all still Cain and Abel.
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Father Richard Rohr
Right.
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Corey Wayne
One of us has to be the winner. One of us has to be loser. You gotta pick between Paul and I. One of us has to be your favorite. We're so wired to think that way.
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Father Richard Rohr
We're so wired to think that way. God has to involve us in the love affair for us to move from the paradigm of scarcity. Every one of the multiplication stories is to move us from a worldview of scarcity to a worldview of abundance. The disciples come, but we only have three loaves and two fish. Whatever it might be, they're still involved in scarcity. Every story of multiplication is saying there's plenty and there's plenty left over.
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Paul Swanson
Very revealing.
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Corey Wayne
And it seems like when we're conditioned for scarcity, it's really hard to talk us into it really is, I think,
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Paul Swanson
logically get to abundance.
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Father Richard Rohr
Yeah, yeah.
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Corey Wayne
Jung says that the most important problems in life we don't solve, we outgrow them.
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Father Richard Rohr
Yeah.
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Corey Wayne
And so it sounds like this is just a process. This is what you talk about, the whole book. This is us growing up, growing up and growing up into love. Wow.
- [33:53]
Paul Swanson
Well, thanks again, Richard, for writing this incredible book and for taking the time to wander with us through Jeremiah and encourage all readers to go to the source. Read Jeremiah with this companion. What a gift to keep furthering this journey.
- [34:10]
Father Richard Rohr
Thank you. You're wonderful.
- [34:19]
Corey Wayne
Everything Belongs will continue in a moment.
- [34:28]
Carmen Acevedo Butcher
How can you embrace the prophetic path? Explore that question in our online course, the Tears of Integrating the Prophetic Path, based on Father Richard Rohr's best selling book of the same name. In this self paced online course, you'll take a deep dive into concepts like Radical Grace, Collective Evil and the Alchemy of Tears. We hope you'll join us. Learn more@cac.org tearscourse that's C A C.org T E A R S C O U R S E We hope you'll join us for have We Been Here Ancient Wisdom for Days of disruption, a live 90 minute online gathering featuring Father Richard Rohr, Carmen Acevedo, Butcher James Finley and our special guest author Kaitlin Curtis. Explore a diverse lineage of ancient contemplative teachers offering timeless wisdom for an uncertain future. A recorded replay is available and tickets start at just $5. Join us on Sunday, May 3rd. Learn more at cac.orgorghearbefore that's C A C.org H-E R E B E F O R E the Divine Exchange online course from the center for Action and Contemplation is back and better than ever. This is now a self paced course featuring live calls with CAC's team. Spiritual seekers will explore the Christian Wisdom tradition through contemplative practice, reflection and embodiment guided by the teachings of Cynthia Borjo. Learn more and enroll@cac.org divine that's cac.org d I v I n e.
- [36:15]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Our
- [36:15]
Corey Wayne
guest this week is Dr. Walter Earl Fluker. He's the Senior Editor of the Howard Thurman Papers Project and a well known figure in the theory and practice of ethical leadership. Dr. Fluker holds the position of Distinguished professor of the Howard Thurman center at Hartford International University for Religion and Peace at Morehouse College. He's the Founding Director of the Andrew Young center for Global Leadership. He's the Martin Luther King Jr. Professor emeritus at B Boston University where he developed an acclaimed massive online operating course titled Ethical Leadership, Character, Civility and Community. His organization, Walter Earl Fluker and Associates, Inc. Continues to advance this mission. In addition to all of this, Dr. Fluker is a prolific author with so many notable works. We especially want to mention that the Ground Has Shifted the Future of the Black Church in Post Racial America.
- [37:25]
Paul Swanson
Doctor Fluker, we are so thrilled to have you here with us for this conversation on tiers of things and just also on the expertise of your experience, your insight and your wisdom. So I was reflecting on your book the Ground has Shifted, which I'll say for listeners is a prophetic book that is part personal reflection and thoughtful analysis reflecting on the historical and current Black Church in this moment and you offer considerations about its own kind of next evolutionary process and what's emerging now for a thriving future. And then as Dr. B would always remind us that you are the expert on the life and work of Dr. Howard Thurman and are furthering Dr. Thurman's mystical transformational impact in the world through that work. And that you also, you devote your wisdom and skillfulness to shaping and guiding the next generation of leaders in ethical leadership. So when I hold all of this together, doesn't that sound like an impressive person when you hear that man, I'm
- [38:31]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
just telling you I'm just enjoying every last minute of it. And. And great. Great is your life in the kingdom of heaven. You shall be great. Thanks for saying all that. I. I only wish my wife were here to hear that.
- [38:47]
Paul Swanson
As I was left wondering, as I'm reflecting all these things, how do you see your post as a through line of the prophetic and the embodiment of the mystical in a very alive Christian lineage?
- [39:00]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Well, I'll be quite honest with you, I really see this journey just simply as a quest to get home. I've always been in search of home. Maybe it does take time to get there, maybe some people get it quicker, but for me it's been a slow journey. I'm a wanderer, both W o n D e r and wand and I'm raising questions and questing. That's kind of the way I'm thinking about my journey. And it's all about trying to get home. Where is home? Homi Baba's work? Is there some incredible mystical third space? Is there some cosmic wave that I can grab and show up? Or is it just the day to day journey of waking up, doing everyday moral work for me and hoping safely to arrive at home? And that's what it is. I was born in Mississippi, I was raised in Chicago, Illinois and I was always on the run, rootless in some ways because my dad left Mississippi in a hurry. I think I share some of that in the ground that shifted somewhere. But we left in a hurry. We were on the run and he and my mom were probably running like my ancestors, his mother and father and so many others. So I've been spending a lot of time with questing, questioning, wondering, wondering, but within the context of runaways and maroons. And so part of what I begun to understand better existentially, sometimes intellectually. But the existential thing is better for me. Experiential is the quest, this deep nagging question of home. And I suspect I won't generalize that when we are most ourselves, we are trying to find our way home, some sense of self, how do we move beyond our alienated existence, alienated from ourselves, from others, from the holy or the divine, whatever you want to call it. How do we find home? So that's kind of where I am nowadays. I can't wait to get home. And I don't know if it'll be over there or will be right here. It really doesn't matter. I just want to get home.
- [41:49]
Corey Wayne
Dr. Fluker, that inspires a question I have to ask. I've told you this before, but your conversation with our teacher of beloved memory, Dr. Barbara Holmes on her podcast the Cosmic we, is one of my all time favorite conversations. You said something in it that I have been meditating on since I heard the words come out of your mouth for the first time. And you said you were talking actually about the. The angel that stands with a flaming sword guarding the Garden of Eden, keeping Adam and Eve from getting back home. And you said, you have to be dismembered to be remembered. You said, if you're going to get past that sword, you have to be dismembered to get home again. It's such a gift to get to ask you. What can you tell us about being dismembered to be remembered on our way home?
- [42:43]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Well, you know, of course, I read Father Rohr's book on the prophets and especially Jeremiah and his kind of threefold process of ordering, disordering, and reordering. And it's a very clever way to play with the dialectic and all these other things, but I love it because it's in threes and it provides always some sense of liminality where I think dismemberment kind of takes place, because it's becoming aware that we are dismembered, that we are alienated. One cannot remember or seek wholeness, which is what remembering does, until one becomes conscious of her or his or them, their deep sense of being lost. I love ET this just occurred. I love ET. When my son was 5 years old, he walked into the room. We were in Nashville, and he's watched ET for at least 1,000 times. And he asked me, he said, dad, why does ET's heart glow in his chest? I said, I don't know, Clinton, but I think he wants to get home. He's calling home. So. So dismemberment for me is becoming aware, the stark, the gravity field sensibility of being lost. And most of us try to stay away from that. You know, we use fig leaves and all kind of things to cover that part of us up. But the lostness is at the heart of the quest for deep spirituality and for hope. Because if one does not or cannot imagine home, and again, not as some other place far, far away, but someplace where one has a sense of wholeness, of health, of full bodied being. And you can take it to any of the issues around what we struggle with now in this country. And also questions of identity. There has to be a place where one can begin to remember oneself. And it is a shamanistic practice. It goes way back. Joseph Campbell, I think, was the first time I bumped into it. He was talking about Siberian mystics and how they had to go through the process. Always envision. You see it in Native American cultures, other indigenous cultures, where the shaman is actually dismembered. So when I get to this angel with the flaming sword, that's really out of George Fox, the great Quaker, and he says he was translated into this other heaven, kind of playing off the Pauline idea. And he's in a place where he could smell and see. Everything was so real, so real. And he said, and there was an angel there with a flaming sword. I love this angel. And I like angels like that period that stand over, guard over things, you know. And I don't like to get too lost in the symbology. I want to play like the angel is really there. There is no becoming without struggle. There is no liberation without struggle, whether it's personal or collective. Frederick Douglass says there must be struggle. But the idea is that remembering, like I think Father roars after this, in this reordering moment for me, is retelling our story. I like to say we remember, we retell, that is, we revise. That's in that liminal space, third space, some kind of space where we began to reimagine ourselves and the world. And for me, the angel stands there always to let me know that if I choose this, if I dare envision this new reality, I must come by the sword. And the dismemberment is indeed inevitable. And it's part of our journey. And for me, since I'm talking about home, I really count those experiences that we've talked about in others as experiences that can be. They don't have to be. They are not necessitous. But I think they can be the platform for greater possibilities.
- [47:39]
Corey Wayne
You're making me think of, is it the story of Jacob who wrestles with Esau when he's trying to cross the river? And he gets his new name, but only after the wrestling and the injury,
- [47:49]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
I got a new name. The old enslaved Africans who were working those fields and plantations, they'd stand out in the brush arbors, hiding away at night in worship services, and they'd look at one another. I'm only imagining this because I'm a preacher, right? And they would look at one another. They say, I've got a new name over in Zion, O Lord, I've got a new name over inside. They did not want to identify by the master's name. It corrupted them, it humiliated them and it made them less than human. And they sought a new name. And this new name is related to this incredible quest for home, for wholeness, integrity of being, so to speak.
- [48:48]
Corey Wayne
Speak reminds me of. There's a Greek word and I'm going to get it wrong. I think it's pothos. But it's this idea of a longing for a home, even if you've never known it. Is that connected to Howard Thurman's idea? The sound of the genuine.
- [49:03]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Yeah, I think it is. And it's roars. Mystical, cosmic, Christ, or universal. All of this stuff is this. This is the stuff. It's the thing about these tears that roar is talking about as well. Why is it that. I know you guys don't cry a lot, but I cry at everything nowadays. All you have to do is look at me hard or say something really cool and I start crying. And I'll cry today if you say the right thing, you know, I'm easily triggered.
- [49:41]
Paul Swanson
Well, you're in the presence of two tearful fellows, so tears come easily to us as well.
- [49:48]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Thank you, Father Rohr. Thank you, thank you, thank you for that.
- [49:53]
Paul Swanson
I'm thinking about, you know, Father Richard writes where he talks about how prophets need to live on the edge of the inside if they are to speak from the proper perspective. Definitely not from the comfortable center, but also not outside throwing stones without empathy for the full situation. This brought to mind to me, Howard Thurman holding that edge of the inside even in the civil rights movement, as he was this wisdom elder who's supporting the more public leaders. But he also took shots for not being more front facing, public facing, but he was doing what was his to do. Is that fair to say about Dr. Thurman, that he was holding this mystic post from the edge of the inside, but it also wasn't without struggle, even as he was participating in the larger struggle for liberation and becoming.
- [50:42]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
So where do activists go when their hearts are broken, when they are weary and beaten down by a society that is constantly policing by the violence of the state and they dare to make a stand and they get hit hard? Where do they go? So the collective must provide a space, a resource for those who've been bruised and also a place of radical comfort and transformation. Someone has to hold your heart. So Thurman, in many ways, is the one who is holding the hearts of many of these folks. Names that we know and some names that some of us don't know, like Pauli Murray, the first African American Episcopal priest woman who was also queer. He was holding her heart when she was a student at Howard University. He held the heart of so many people, King included. But my point is this insider. Yeah, that's kind of what Thurman is after when he talks about apostles of sensitiveness. He saw his mission as identifying, forming, and sending out what were apostles of sensitiveness. He has a vision, and he thinks these apostles of sensitiveness, they lay a stake in the ground for democratic freedom. Here's a crazy idea, since you guys like crazy, outlandish things. I was. And it happened with my boys and I. We were years ago, we were in upstate New York. We took a weekend trip to Buffalo. I was doing something. So we went to the museum. And there I saw a possum, a mother possum. I had never paid attention to possums, but this mother possum had her youngins on her coat, clinging. I didn't know they were marsupials, that possum. And so Clint and I did some study, and we discovered that these little babies, when they are birthed, they are carried in the pouch. I've forgotten how many weeks. And by the time they get to the back of their mother on her coat, clinging to it, and that's to strengthen them, they're developing while they're doing that. Even then, they're no bigger than you could put them in a several of them in a teaspoon. But they form themselves with the Great Mother over time before they are sent into the world. So I really think Thurman and part of our work. How do we create moral and spiritual incubators for a new generation of leaders? My language is who are spiritually disciplined, intellectually astute, healthy, socially and emotionally and morally anchored. How do we do that? And that's been most of my work outside of Thurman, using Thurman, King and anybody else I could get my hands on Thich Nhat Hanh or anybody I could read to create opportunities, really moral and spiritual incubators, and to let it be over such a period of time where they might come to a place where they understand what their legs and arms are for.
- [54:35]
Paul Swanson
I Wonder, is there a story that comes to mind or some examples of some of the practicalities of how you are creating the conditions for that incubator in your work for that type of leadership?
- [54:44]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
I started in Rochester. That was part of the vision that brought me there, that old possum. But then I went to Morehouse College, which was my laboratory. All of these incredible young leaders, they're going to lead something. If you go to Morehouse College, you're going to lead something. The question is, how will you lead? That's my point, Right? And I can point to at least two or three classes of students, names that you might or may not recognize, who are doing things in the world. Not because of what I was doing per se, but we created a leadership center based upon a model which I appropriated out of my own studies and especially dancing around. I didn't tell everybody this in public, but working with not just these intellectuals and these great big old books and all that stuff, I was working. I went to Egypt. I spent time with Maladoma Patrice Zomey. Oh, my God, May his name be blessed forever and ever. Baba Crater Muchwa, great Zulu medicine man, just learning stuff. And so part of the work we would do is to liberate what we would call. I learned this from an African philosopher, too, and mathematician, that you must liberate the circle. Most of the Western world, as you know, is linear. We try to get out of the box, but we're linear. That's not necessarily true for Asian cultures, Africa or indigenous cultures, but we are linear, and we structure things. And so I had developed a model, this ethical leadership model, and it was more triangular. And this incredible gentleman at a dinner, I explained to him what I was doing. And he said, but, Prof. You must liberate the circle. I said, huh? He said, well, equilateral triangles are really circles, but yours is static. It doesn't move. It's confining, restrictive. You must liberate the circle. And I didn't ask anything else of him. I liberated the circle. Instead of these squares and rectangles and triangles and circles, I created spirals. And they were embodied in the curriculum. That's an old song, European, I think, in origin. I think the women did this out in the woods. But I won't call who they were, you know, but these were the women, the feminine, who were doing it. They were spiraling into the center, and the center ingresses infinitely, egresses infinitely. So it's a cosmic dance. But I added to it, and I'll close here the ring shout, which was out of African American traditions, still practiced in places today where it's counterclockwise. That is so funny, isn't it? It's really clever. But people don't know that all of that's going on in the dance. But I've seen, seen again and again when participants go to the middle of the circle and they make their affirmation for the collective, and there it goes. And I've seen people struggle through major issues at the center of this circle where others are accompanying them on their journey. So I just think there are all kind of ways to do that. But that has been very effective for me as an entree, as an entrance into the other work. Before we run to the conceptual, let the body know what it knows.
- [59:00]
Corey Wayne
So we're talking about Jeremiah, amongst other things. My favorite theologian is Origen of Alexandria, this ancient Egyptian theologian. He loved when he wrote his commentary on Jeremiah. He loved extrapolating on the verse and the way that he. He took it as Jeremiah, saying to God, you tricked me. And I was tricked. And I had a teacher tell me once that you will never fully understand the God of the Hebrew Bible if you don't understand that the God of the Hebrew Bible is a trickster. Doesn't come at you in a straight line, doesn't lead you along straight lines.
- [59:36]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
I think God has to trick us. And I'm not thinking of a big anthropomorphic being, you know, especially Michelangelo's Adam and all that. No, I'm not into that. But I think the universe tricks us into ourselves. You mentioned Jacob running from his brother. Yeah, he bumps into this thing, and we call it an angel, but it kicks his ass all night long. All night long. It breaks his leg. And he's. He's called Jacob because he's a trickster. He's a thief, he's a liar, but he gets a new name. And the things. I will not let you go until you bless me. Is Jacob talking to himself? Is he talking to the creator of all worlds? Is he talking to something he made up? It doesn't matter. It doesn't matter because he dares to bless this moment out of struggle, and he receives a new name. He becomes the prince of the people. He becomes Israel. And Elie Wiesel, his commentary on that, said this thing that grabs Jacob says, I bring fire. And Jacob, in blessing him, looks back and says, I am fire. So trick the trickster, I think, is so important, because here we are, we are locked in calcified consciousness. And to become Aware to awaken from deep sleep. Something needs to jolt us, shake us. Whatever. This big boogie man God that we are dealing with will not get you for claiming you're name. The richness of your name, your being. I don't know how we got there, but it was wonderful. That was wonderful, wasn't it?
- [61:50]
Corey Wayne
That's good. Is the name and the richness of your being. Is that part of the home that we're looking for?
- [61:55]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
I hope it is, because that's what I'm looking for. We might get saved one day. You know, it probably won't be in most of the churches and stuff and synagogues and all these other. Probably won't be, but we might get saved if we could just, just understand that the very thing, the very home, the very person, all that stuff that we're looking for is also looking for us. And again, I think that's what Father Roy is playing with. But. But it's also looking for us. And why would we be so resistant? Because it looks strange when it shows up. Maybe the strangeness is the only thing that will get our attention. I wonder something. You know that other movie, I can't remember where this person dance is a labyrinth. Pan's Labyrinth.
- [62:54]
Corey Wayne
Yes.
- [62:55]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Oh, wasn't that an incredible film?
- [62:57]
Corey Wayne
So good.
- [62:59]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Here we go, people. That's what I'm saying. I don't need to say anything else. So when Pan shows up, you know, pay attention.
- [63:07]
Father Richard Rohr
Yeah, yeah.
- [63:09]
Corey Wayne
Is it when Moses sees the burning bush that he says, I will turn and see this thing? Just noticing that it's there. So good.
- [63:16]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
And it probably had been there all along, and he was so busy tending the sheep and running from Pharaoh, scared to death, a fugitive from justice, et cetera, et cetera, that he probably just ran past it every day until it really started to show up for him.
- [63:38]
Paul Swanson
What you're saying about being tricked into ourselves, being tricked almost into salvation, because we won't see it unless we that that trickster God shows up who's searching for us as we search for God, but we have to be almost tricked into it. And I think about Jeremiah in this context as, you know, as the weeping prophet. But what do you think that we can uniquely learn from a weeping prophet about how tears can almost trick us into being baptized as we move from anger to love?
- [64:07]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
First of all, I don't think Jeremiah would have taken the assignment had he not been tricked. Nor do I think Fannie Lou Hamer or Dorothy Day or some of the people he Certainly not Martin King. I've always noticed something about prophets as we are talking about them. There is a melancholia, isn't it? Have you met any prophet anywhere or read about a prophet? And I'm. I'm using this all gender included, all sexuality identifications. Have you met any prophet who did not appear with some form of the melancholy? Melancholy or the blues. I like to say the blues. Prophets tend to have the blues. And yet at the same time, these are also people. I think I mentioned this in Barbara's podcast. Melancholy is accompanied by incredible humor. It blows me away that most of these folks, Dalai Lama, Thurman was included. I don't know about Richard Rohr, I suspect, but they're cracking up all the time. What's funny? And I think they have a secret. And I think the laughter is related to what we mean by tears. I think they come from the same place because we began to see the futility of our concerns. How do you say that Better? We begin to see that on a scale of infinity, there is no difference between the number one and 100,000. You see this in Herman Hess's work Steppenwolf. Not yet in Justin, Sid, Arthur and others. But in Steppenwolf, there's a place where the ancients show up and they're laughing because human beings are so funny. We are concerned about the darnest things that don't matter. There's a Buddhist monk. This isn't the saying, but there's another. There's a Buddhist monkey walks into the temple. He's silent and he turns and he says, I know not what dwelleth here, but the tears fall down. This is. This is that thing you know, right? That I know not what dwelleth here, but the tears fall down. Or Rumi, whom I was thinking, come to the orchard in the spring. There's light, there's wine and the pomegranate flowers. Something like that. If you do not come, these do not matter. If you do come, these do not matter. Come, come, whoever you are. Be ye infidel, idolater, a worshiper of fire. And though you've broken your vows a thousand times, come, come, come again. That's what I think Jeremiah is pointing us to. Roars, pointing us to. And that's a long journey when you get there. I guess it's a short walk, but it's a long journey. And it's not for the faint of heart. In a world where stuff is. Is. Is broken, it's broken. And the only salve to speak of salvation, the only bomb for brokenness, is to become broken, to Become broken in the world.
- [68:05]
Corey Wayne
I've heard you talk about being like a Forrest Gump in your life who just wanders and finds your way. As we're bringing our conversation to a close, what wisdom would you share with folks listening in their own journey for home in sort of charting their own path and even having hope when they. When they don't know the destination and they don't know where it's going?
- [68:27]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
You hear me mention my mom and dad a lot, and I do that out of great honor and respect for them. They were sharecroppers in Mississippi. My father, if. If he finished the fourth grade, I'd be surprised, but he was a very, very wise man and a great storyteller. My mother was illiterate, and she was constantly in poor health. So I was very close to my mother. But one thing that she taught me was embracing joy. Every Tuesday night, no matter what, demanded our kind of childhood attention, like baseball games in the lot, she would take my sister Toni Kelly, my best friend, and I to church for the prayer meeting. And it was a little storefront church on the south side of Chicago, Centennial Missionary Baptist Church. And believe it or not, most of the time, nobody else would be there but us. But it wouldn't stop my mother. She would stand and the ritual in these black churches, Baptist and sanctified, you would stand and you would give your testimony, and she would give her testimony to an audience that must have crowded the sanctuary. But it was just the four of us, and I was always amazed by that. And it would go something like this. It was a kind of ritualized thing that she learned to say over the years. She said, I just stand to share my testimony that God has been so good. And she say, it's hard raising these children, the gangs and all of the dope and things that are out here is hard. And she be talking to God. And she said, but I just want you to know. And she switched back to the audience. That the Lord has brought me and these children I place in the hands of the Lord. And the last statement always was, and this joy that I have, the world didn't give it to me, and the world cannot take it away. Now, I told you I cry easily, but I've had many lonely nights when I've cried briny tears where I couldn't see beyond the moment. Devastated. We've all had those. But I could hear my mother's voice just ringing. This joy that I have, the world didn't give it to me, and the world can't take it away. What assurance? What assurance. And it gives you resilience. Cornel west used to call it subversive joy. Our dear beloved ancestor Barbara would call it unspeakable joy. Unspeakable. They knew something, as did my mother, about this incredible power, because politics can't legislate that joy. Fire hoses can't drown it. Greedy and insane men who are doing global deals right now around war and bloodshed, they cannot contain it because they didn't give it to us, and they can't take it away. And I think those who have that kind of joy are ready to do battle in greater battlefields.
- [72:41]
Paul Swanson
Amen to that. Thank you for your presence here and the way that you open up and the divine speaks through you and the way that your tears speak to the love for family, for community, and for this path of transformation. You've given us so much more than we could ask for. Thank you so much for your time.
- [73:02]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
I appreciate it.
- [73:03]
Corey Wayne
Thank you. Thank you.
- [73:04]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Thank you,
- [73:19]
Father Richard Rohr
Paul.
- [73:20]
Corey Wayne
I know I say every episode is my favorite, but this might be my favorite episode.
- [73:26]
Paul Swanson
Dr. Vuker is an incredible presence, and to have that conversation with him come off the heels of our conversation with Richard on this chapter. It was such a wonderful pairing to hold their. Their wisdom and have them be conversed without even knowing about each other's conversations. That happened so much life there.
- [73:46]
Corey Wayne
There's a. A line in this chapter on Jeremiah where Richard writes, sincerely, religious people trained in forgiveness, exodus, exile, and crucifixion should be the readiest and most prepared for this full journey. But up until now, that's only been the case in a small remnant of every group. And when I think about this, sincerely religious people trained in forgiveness, exodus, exile, and crucifixion, I can't help but think of our conversation with Dr. Fluker about the necessity of being dismembered. Does that resonate with you?
- [74:27]
Paul Swanson
It totally does. I think that that line speaks directly to it and also, like, ties into what Richard was saying about, like, love is giving up control. Love is breaking out of the cultural logic. And Dr. Fluker is saying that in the way that he's talking about being dismembered to be remembered. And it breaks the logic of the linear. And so I think different language around the same thing. And I love how Dr. Fluker kind of put it on the. The positive spin of, like, we have to liberate the circle. The linear model, the A to B to C to D does not necessarily translate to the imagination of God. And I feel like Jeremiah learned that in spades. Right? Like, oh, my God, the inability to have winning be the end goal. How does that not just leave you in tears?
- [75:15]
Corey Wayne
Well, he's. He's kind of the prophet who wins by losing because he has to turn around and tell his people who are praying to God and they're trying to have faith and hope that God is going to liberate them from the oppressor. And he's like, no, we're going to lose this one. We're going to get taken off into captivity. We're going to be there for a long time. And the secret is not to pray for liberation, and we can work for liberation, but it's not going to happen. We need an interior liberation because we're going to go into captivity. You can see where. One, that would not make him popular.
- [75:43]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Two.
- [75:44]
Corey Wayne
Yeah, my God, of course, tears are necessary. And I wonder for those of us who are trying to make love more real in the world, how often we have to. To let go of our agendas and let go of winning and find those tears and that joy that sustains us even in that. And then I look at Dr. Fluker, who's so quick to tears and yet connects that so deeply with joy, which seems counterintuitive. How does that land with you, Paul? I mean, the joy of Dr. Fluker, watching him cry, like, we got to see him on screen, watching him shed tears and laugh back and forth through that whole conversation, was. Was a lesson in and of itself.
- [76:33]
Paul Swanson
Yeah. I mean, it's such a reminder to see what a transformed person looks like and how they act and how tears of sadness and tears of joy start to mix together. It's almost. It reminds me of almost the alchemical process that we talk about, where, like, all these ingredients and these tears represent so much of the mixture of the totality of the journey. And we heard it, you know, in Dr. Fluker's singing, in his jokes, in the way that he is willing to go to places within himself to share as a gift of generosity for those listening, to bring them fuller into the teachings of this chapter.
- [77:11]
Corey Wayne
Do you think that both tears and laughter are a way that we practice a letting go of a sense of control?
- [77:20]
Paul Swanson
I think so. I think about the times when I've had the kind of laughter where it's like, belly ache on the floor. I can't breathe. And it is the exact same aftermath feeling of, like, the kind of cry where you're also shedding something that you've didn't know you've been carrying. And the day has been turned over in a new way. And you feel more whole, like the
- [77:42]
Corey Wayne
ego is not at the steering wheel when that happens. And often it has happened in moments where my plans and my attempts to win have gone off the rails and I've had to let it go. Or in moments of like all, all attempts to appear in control.
- [77:58]
Paul Swanson
Yeah.
- [77:59]
Corey Wayne
Or right. Yeah. There's a little bit of like, you know, humor and humiliation in it.
- [78:05]
Father Richard Rohr
Yeah.
- [78:05]
Corey Wayne
What do you think? We want to leave our listeners with something to to think about and work on between now and our next episode next month.
- [78:13]
Paul Swanson
One thing that we were thinking of is related to next time that you are in the midst of suffering, are you able to find that silver lining, that spark of joy even within it? Where's the lightning laughing through the storm and that vice versa? If you're in the midst of a season of great joy or explosion of happiness, how are you also in solidarity with the suffering of the world? How are you touching that? So where in your life do you need to to look at the other side of the coin or the supposed other side of the coin?
- [78:47]
Corey Wayne
Find the tears of things.
- [78:48]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Find the tears and things and the laughter.
- [78:51]
Corey Wayne
What a gift to have these conversations. Thanks everyone for listening. It's been so great to have you with us this time around. We look forward to seeing you again in just a few weeks.
- [79:01]
Paul Swanson
I almost said Amen, but I was like, doesn't make sense.
- [79:16]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Thanks for listening to this podcast by the center for Action and Contemplation, an educational nonprofit that introduces seekers to the contemplative Christian path of transformation. To learn more about our work, visit us at ca. Everything Belongs is made possible thanks to the generosity of our supporters and the shared work of Mike Petro, Paul Swanson,
- [79:38]
Carmen Acevedo Butcher
Drew Jackson, Carmen Acevedo, Butcher, Jenna Kuyper,
- [79:42]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
Izzy Spitz, Megan Hare, Sarah Palmer, Dorothy
- [79:45]
Corey Wayne
Abrams, Brandon Strange, Vanessa Yee, Cassidy hall
- [79:49]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
and me, Corey Wayne. The music you hear is composed and provided by our friends Friends Hammock and we'd also like to thank sounddown Studios for all of their work in post production. From the high desert of New Mexico, we wish you peace and every good.
- [80:41]
Carmen Acevedo Butcher
Do you feel called to walk a more contemplative path? The center for Action and Contemplation is an educational non practice supporting the journey of inner transformation. Our programs and resources will help grow your consciousness, deepen your prayer practice, and strengthen your compassionate engagement with the world. Learn more about our resources such as publications, podcasts, email series and events@www.cac.org
- [81:14]
Dr. Walter Earl Fluker
foreign.
- [81:19]
Carmen Acevedo Butcher
Want to go? Even deeper into the teachings of Father Richard Rohr. Subscribe to our free Daily Meditations to receive spiritual and contemplative wisdom in your email inbox each morning. In 2026, our daily meditations theme is good news for a fractured world. Learn more about this theme and subscribe@cac.org daily 26. That's cac.org d A I L Y 26.