Everything Belongs Podcast: “The Integration of Feminine and Masculine”

Podcast: Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward
Host: Center for Action and Contemplation
Episode: The Integration of Feminine and Masculine with Jennifer Abe and Douglas E. Christie
Date: January 17, 2025
Based on: Richard Rohr’s “Eager to Love,” Chapter 8—Lightness of Heart and Firmness of Foot
Special Guests: Jennifer Abe (LMU), Douglas E. Christie (LMU)

Episode Overview

This episode explores the integration of the “masculine” and “feminine” as contemplative energies, archetypes, and spiritual realities—not as mere markers of gender—through the lens of the Franciscan tradition and the foundational teachings of Richard Rohr. The hosts, Mike Petro and Paul Swanson, first engage Richard Rohr in a rich conversation about his personal and spiritual formation, cultural scripts, and St. Francis’s transformative approach to masculinity and femininity. In the second half, guest professors Jennifer Abe and Douglas E. Christie extend the theme through lived experience, academic insights, and profound embodied metaphors—offering practical invitations for moving beyond categorical binaries toward wholeness.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. The Challenge of Naming the Mystery (00:08–03:26, 26:31–28:31)

• The conversation begins with humility: Mike and Paul acknowledge their limitations in discussing masculine and feminine realities as men, and the way language both reveals and limits deep truths.
• Quote: “It’s like trying to talk about God or love. It’s this sacred thing that’s always too small for the container that you pour it into.” —Mike Petro (01:26)
• Richard’s Core Distinction: Masculine and feminine are archetypal energies present in all people—not synonymous with male/female or gender roles. The discussion aims to go beyond societal scripts and binaries.

2. Richard Rohr’s Formation & Awakening to Archetypes (03:48–17:37)

• Richard was raised in a post-WWII atmosphere, immersed in highly gendered cultural scripts: “They were all World War II warriors or 1940s cinema John Wayne stars who are over-masculinized by our standards today.” (07:01)
• Early education by religious sisters (notably Sister Ephraim, whose mythic stories about Mary model grace, vulnerability, and “feminine” attributes), later shifting to seminary life surrounded solely by men (08:49–13:16).
• Discovery of Carl Jung’s archetypes in the library—opening to the “universal roles of masculine and feminine … not roles anymore, energies.” (16:27)
• Personal realization: “When I learned more about masculine and feminine as energies and not gender roles, I was like, I relate to the feminine so much more.” —Mike Petro (17:16)

3. Francis of Assisi as a Model of Integration (17:37–24:36)

• Francis was “handed scripts” of manhood: warriorship, competition, patriarchal religion.
• Francis broke these molds: Disillusioned with violence, he chose radical vulnerability (embracing lepers), simplicity, inclusivity, and friendship with women (Clare, Lady Jacoba).
• Quote: “Yearning for a new way will not produce it. Only ending the old way can do that… You must make room for it.” —Neil Donald Walsh, read by Mike Petro (19:33)
• Francis’s way is described as poetry, not legalistic prose; relationship and mutuality, not rigid order.

4. Defining Masculine and Feminine Principles (26:48–28:46)

• Feminine Principle (as Rohr describes): Inner, formless, intuitive, relational, harmonic, lunar, diffusive awareness.
• Masculine Principle: Outer, mental, distinct, focused, solar, agentic, ascendant, literal.
• Richard: “Carl Jung calls it a more diffused awareness both for good and evil.” (27:42)
• Both energies are essential and present in everyone, but “the last idol to fall is the idol of sexuality… Reality is more subtle than that.” (28:56)

5. Integration & The Radical Genius of Francis (28:46–37:45)

• Francis incarnated these archetypes: radical receptivity, connection with the marginalized, and refusal of institutional scripts without antagonism.
• Francis wrote the first Italian poem, the Canticle of Brother Sun—his spirituality was artistic, inclusive. (30:23)
• Difference from Benedictine and Jesuit models (focused, rule-based): “There’s that diffused awareness instead of focused awareness.” —Richard Rohr (31:04)
• The feminine principle is seen as generative, capable of including the masculine; patriarchal order (even post-Reformation Church) collapses back into rigidity and control.
• Paul links contemplative openness and practical social change: “How do we keep moving in that direction?”
• Advice from Richard: “Don’t speak from your woundedness, speak out of your healed wounds. That allows a much smaller group of people to speak.” (38:09)

6. The Practice of Mystery: A Conversation with Jennifer Abe & Doug Christie (40:02–81:54)

Personal Stories of Encountering the Franciscan Tradition (43:10–48:45)

• Jennifer: Raised in a Japanese American, Baptist tradition, she encountered St. Francis through John Michael Talbot’s music—an entry point highlighting “the sense of worship and intimacy with the divine that I really found drawn to.” (45:43)
• Doug: Found the Franciscan tradition through parish life in East Oakland, inspired by Franciscan commitment to peacemaking, simplicity, and radical inclusion.

Living Beyond Binaries—Both/And Spirituality (49:24–53:37)

• Jennifer: Early faith provided secure categories, but life’s ambiguity and struggle forced a journey toward “being very rooted and very open at the same time.” (51:45)
• Doug: The “canticle of the creatures” revealed the necessity of expressing faith “through the beauty and vitality and mystery of this world… a knitting of the whole we desperately need in this moment of fragmentation.” (52:04)

Embodying the Marian Yes and Leadership in Feminine Mode (55:02–67:45)

• Jennifer shares her deepening appreciation for Mary: “Radical receptivity… a young woman who said yes at great risk to herself … This continual dialogue with your sense of God, of who you are to be in the world, that model and example of Mary becomes very relevant and powerful for all of us, or can be.” (55:02–57:46)
• Her journey as a psychologist grew from realizing the need to connect inner work with social justice, inspired by liberation psychologist Ignacio Martín-Baró: “Individual well-being as connected to social justice.” (58:00–63:20)
• Jennifer’s current work is an “underground, faithful, collaborative, nourishing” leadership—fostering wholeness in others and the institution through quiet, consistent presence.

The Creosote Plant: Embodied Wisdom from the Desert (67:45–77:46)

• Jennifer describes learning from the creosote—the strength of its deep, unseen taproots, its outward growth, its release of fragrance when wounded, and its communal, interconnected life:
  • “We did this kind of communal prayer together, where we connected with our deepest values… The branches extending outwards, ever outwards, that we held hands, that we circled and remembered that we are connected to each other, we are connected to the natural world…” (71:13–77:46)
• The creosote dance becomes a living image of feminine/masculine integration, rootedness and generativity, especially as an antidote to individualism and rigid categorization.

Practical Invitations for Listeners (79:01–81:02)

• Jennifer: “Learning to embrace in an almost fearless way. Not uncritically accepting what has been given to us, but… translating it. What does it mean for our lives and in whatever season we’re in to say yes, to live fully, to contribute to the humanization of yourself and of others…” (79:01)
• Openness to mystery, inclusion, ordinary acts of love—are the heart of lived integration.

Notable Quotes & Timestamps

• “It’s like trying to talk about God or love. It’s this sacred thing that’s always too small for the container that you pour it into.”
  —Mike Petro, 01:26

• “The feminine principle… is more identified with lunar subtlety and not the over differentiating light of the masculine sun god or the literalism and linearity of the left brain.”
  —Richard Rohr (reading from his book), 26:48

• “Carl Jung calls it a more diffused awareness both for good and evil.”
  —Richard Rohr, 27:42

• “The last idol to fall is the idol of sexuality. They like the division… Reality is more subtle than that.”
  —Richard Rohr, 28:56

• “Francis is poetry, not prose… He wrote the first piece of recorded Italian poetry, the Canticle of Brother Sun… breaking with focused, masculine religious order into an artistic, inclusive, diffused religious life.”
  —Richard Rohr, 30:23

• “Don’t speak from your woundedness, speak out of your healed wounds.”
  —Richard Rohr, 38:09

• “Learning to embrace in an almost fearless way…to grow further into a practice of love that is very ordinary and concrete and unconditional, that we don’t negate anybody, that no one gets excluded in that circle.”
  —Jennifer Abe, 79:01

• “When it is wounded, [creosote] offers up its fragrance and it grows outwards… We did this communal prayer together…remembered that we are connected to each other, we are connected to the natural world and that we can never forget our connectedness.”
  —Jennifer Abe, 71:13–77:46

Timestamps for Key Segments

| Segment | Timestamp | |----------------------------------------------------|--------------| | Opening Theme and Humility on Topic | 00:08–03:26 | | Richard’s Early Formation: Gender & Archetypes | 03:48–17:37 | | On St. Francis Breaking Scripts | 17:37–24:36 | | Defining Masculine & Feminine (Rohr Quotation) | 26:48–28:46 | | Integration, Order/Disorder, Franciscan Genius | 28:46–37:45 | | Richard’s Closing Advice | 38:09 | | Introduction to Jennifer Abe & Doug Christie | 40:02–43:10 | | Jennifer and Doug’s Spiritual Formation | 43:10–48:45 | | Both/And Spirituality Beyond Binaries | 49:24–53:37 | | Marian Yes, Leadership, Social Liberation | 55:02–67:45 | | Desert, Creosote Dance as Integration Metaphor | 67:45–77:46 | | Practical Invitations for Listeners | 79:01–81:02 | | Final Reflective Close | 81:02–84:46 |

Flow & Tone

The episode maintains a humble, exploratory, and inclusive tone—continually returning to the importance of wrestling with mystery and refusing to settle for pat answers or fixed categories. The practical wisdom of Francis (poetry, compassion, integration), the deepening understanding of Mary, and the creosote’s embodied metaphor for generativity and hidden strength all animate the episode’s central message: Wholeness comes by living beyond binary scripts, integrating energies, and embracing spacious, relational, and incarnational love—where “everything and everyone belongs.”

Listener Takeaways

• Masculine and feminine, as spiritual energies, exist within all, inviting us beyond gendered scripts.
• Francis of Assisi modeled the courage to break cultural and religious binaries, moving toward relationality and inclusivity.
• Integrational wholeness arises from love, receptivity, healed vulnerability, and openness to mystery.
• Embodying these teachings may look like letting go of outcomes, saying “yes” in the face of uncertainty, rooting deeply in values, and investing in relationships.
• The invitation: Reflect on where your own life has been divided by scripts, cultivate both focused (masculine) and diffused (feminine) awareness, and participate in a more loving, holistic world.

Memorable Moment

Jennifer Abe describing the creosote “dance” in the desert as an embodied prayer for wholeness and connectedness:

“The roots help you locate yourself in the world… The branches extending outwards, ever outwards, that we held hands, that we circled and remembered we are connected to each other, we are connected to the natural world… It’s a manifestation and expression drawn from the inspiration of the desert plant… that we could draw from to gain strength for our own lives.” (71:13–77:46)

This episode invites listeners to claim their own unique “yes” to mystery, integration, and generative presence—living forward the contemplative legacy of the Franciscan tradition.