Podcast Summary: Everything Belongs — “The Legacy of Clare with Sr. Margaret Carney”

Podcast: Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward
Host: Center for Action and Contemplation
Guests: Richard Rohr, Sr. Margaret Carney, Paul Swanson, Drew Jackson, Jenna Kuiper, Mike Petro
Date: January 24, 2025
Focus: Exploring St. Clare of Assisi’s enduring impact on contemplative Christianity, relational simplicity, and radical faithfulness, with in-depth insights from Sr. Margaret Carney.

Overview of the Episode

This episode delves into Chapter 9 (“The Legacy of Living the Life at Depth”) of Richard Rohr’s Eager to Love: The Alternative Way of Francis of Assisi. The hosts and guests examine the overlooked yet profound spiritual legacy of St. Clare of Assisi—her radical commitment to place, simplicity, and community—and discuss how her contemplative lifestyle speaks powerfully to contemporary questions of faith, action, and belonging. The second half features Sr. Margaret Carney, a leading scholar on Clare, who brings to life Clare’s charism, the symbolism of the “mirror”, and how her model challenges and nurtures today’s seekers.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Clare’s Radical Centrality (00:47–03:32)

• Marginalized in Story, Central in Spirit:
  Drew Jackson and Paul Swanson reflect on how Clare is often treated as a side character in Franciscan narratives but, on closer examination, emerges as a central figure with her own genius and radical spirituality.
  “As you get into hearing more about Clare and her story, you realize how central she is to the whole thing.” — Drew Jackson (01:21)

• Living the Teachings Forward:
  Clare didn’t just admire Francis; she embodied his teachings, putting contemplative ideals into loving practice and modeling what Richard Rohr calls “downward mobility”—a radical embrace of poverty and simplicity as means to deep transformation.
  “There’s something about the way that Clare and the sisters embraced this downward mobility that speaks so vibrantly to us today.” — Drew Jackson (02:39)

2. The Power of Place: Stability and Transformation (06:39–11:08, 35:08–40:19)

• Clare’s 40-Year Commitment to San Damiano:
  Hosts and Richard Rohr compare Clare’s lifelong rootedness at San Damiano to the often-mobile Francis, reflecting on the contemplative and transformative potential of deeply committing to a single place, especially in contrast to contemporary restlessness.

  • Rohr connects this to his own decades at the CAC in Albuquerque (11:08):
    “I’ve learned to love this space more and more as I’ve watched the trees grow around the house… As I reflected on [travel], I have no need to go back… But I’m sure glad I was there.” — Richard Rohr

• Stability as Resistance:
  Sr. Margaret Carney nuances this ideal, noting how the value of rootedness was culturally embedded in medieval Europe—and yet, for Clare, it was also an intentional spiritual discipline that modeled perseverance through challenges and the possibility of transformation through patience and presence.
  “We can be frivolous about the importance of place… But staying with a place and people long enough can bring a bigger life than we imagined.” — Sr. Margaret Carney (36:29)

3. The Mirror of Clare: Contemplation and Identity (14:16–16:12, 40:19–45:06, 64:54–68:29)

• Not Polishing, But Reflecting:
  Contrary to some cultural or Buddhist interpretations, Rohr clarifies that for Clare, the mirror is not about self-improvement but about faithfully receiving and transmitting Christ’s image:
  “For Clare, it’s trusting the world of reflection, that the energy is transferred by gazing and reflecting… Allowing the reflection.” — Richard Rohr (14:33)

• Becoming Like Christ:
  Sr. Margaret Carney elaborates on Clare’s mirror metaphor:
  “Claire takes [the mirror] and asks: when I look, what do I want to be looking back at me? … She is also, in doing that, giving the sisters the winning lottery ticket of how to become more contemplative… you keep focusing on that in that mirror until, every time you look, you see it more clearly.” (40:39)

• Living as Imitation:
  The mirror metaphor, rooted in Scripture and everyday life, offers a model for transformation that arises not from striving, but from steady, loving contemplation—seeing Christ, absorbing his qualities, and reflecting them outward.

4. Hiddenness, Vulnerability, and “Show Don’t Tell” (17:12–24:22)

• Beyond the Male Gaze:
  Richard Rohr encourages recognition of Clare’s countercultural withdrawal from public admiration, living “behind the wall” in self-chosen obscurity and dependence on God. “The women deliberately separated themselves… They really refine the process by not going there very much, almost not at all.” — Richard Rohr (17:53)

• Embodied Quiet Witness:
  Clare models a “show, don’t tell” spirituality, quietly living what Francis preached.
  “Where Francis spoke and preached about it, Claire quietly lived it.” — Jenna Kuiper (20:45)
  “She’s a real show, don’t tell.” — Mike Petro (20:54)

• Spiritual Freedom:
  The conversation frames Clare's lifestyle as one internally liberated from needing admiration, rooted in the “purity of heart” arising from clear intention and motivation.

5. Themes of Conversion and Institutional Challenge (30:56–34:08, 49:50–60:25)

• Conversion as Lifelong Turning:
  Sr. Margaret recalls Franciscan roots in “penitents”—those always ready to turn toward God, not just once but continually. “That idea that it’s not just an initial moment… I have to be ready throughout my life to turn.” — Sr. Margaret Carney (60:25)

• Tension with Institutions:
  Both Sr. Margaret and Drew Jackson grapple with the challenge of maintaining prophetic radicalism within the inertia of large systems—ecclesial, educational, or economic. Movements often struggle to maintain their “sharp edge” as they institutionalize. “The ability to do something new, innovative, radical… depends on individuals and persons with a certain leadership charisma… And I think [Franciscans] need to create friendly incubators for men and women who want to try to develop some of these new possibilities.” — Sr. Margaret Carney (57:43)

• Poverty, Simplicity, and Power:
  The podcast explores the differences in how Franciscan ideals were lived by men and women, the pressures toward accommodation, and the enduring question of living meaningfully without accumulation of wealth or power.

6. Living Clare’s Legacy Today: Practical Invitations (22:11–23:13, 61:01–68:29)

• Clare’s Joy in Simplicity:
  Rohr remarks on the evident joy of the Poor Clares, their “purity of heart” found in daily motivation rooted in divine love rather than external affirmation.

• Practical Imitation for Modern Listeners:
  Both Richard Rohr and Sr. Margaret Carney stress that while few are called to join a cloister, all are called to the essentials:

  • Contemplate the person of Jesus
  • Invest in community and deep relationships
  • Practice downward mobility—simplicity, service, and attentiveness to others
  • Regularly examine one’s motivations and be open to ongoing conversion
  • Embrace one’s context and commit faithfully before seeking to “move on”

• Sr. Margaret’s Word for Listeners:
  “The first word is contemplate Jesus… I’m living that out in this particular community… It’s the community that gives her every day the chance to exhibit what it is that she has learned from Christ.” (64:54)

Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Clare’s Centrality:
  “Francis spoke and preached about it, and Clare quietly lived it.” — Jenna Kuiper (20:45)

• Mirror Metaphor Explained:
  “Claire takes… the mirror… and asks, ‘When I look, what do I want to be looking back at me?’” — Sr. Margaret Carney (40:39)

• On Joy and Motivation:
  “From the moment the door opens, it’s all laughter and smiles. I would have to say the Poor Clares are much happier than the friars… by midlife, they found purity of heart.” — Richard Rohr (22:36)

• Conversion as Ongoing Turning:
  “The word penance in that time meant to be ready to turn to God… And that was the way the penitents committed to living.” — Sr. Margaret Carney (60:25)

• Counsel for Doubt and Discouragement:
  “The difference between Peter and Judas: they both betrayed Jesus. One kept hanging around with the other believers, the other went off on his own and destroyed himself. Keep hanging around with the other believers.” — Father Robert McCreary (as quoted by Sr. Margaret Carney, 33:18)

• Living the Radical Way Now:
  “How do we resist… dehumanizing forces that lead us into dehumanizing… one another? … It is hard, but it is a necessary question for all of us to keep wrestling with, to not move away from.” — Drew Jackson (69:27)

• Clare’s Contemplative Action:
  “She stays at—literally—a window, but metaphorically a window to the town. People come, they have personal problems, they need help… She’s a counselor…” — Sr. Margaret Carney (67:37)

Important Timestamps for Segments

• 00:47–03:32: Initial conversation about Clare’s marginalization and unique genius
• 06:39–11:08: Stability of place; spiritual formation through rootedness
• 14:16–16:12 / 40:19–45:06: Clare’s mirror imagery; contemplation as reflection
• 17:12–24:22: Hiddenness vs. platform; “show don’t tell” spirituality
• 28:02–34:08: Sr. Margaret Carney’s Franciscan journey and call
• 35:08–40:19: Commitment to place in medieval and modern context
• 49:50–60:25: Challenges of institutions, radical poverty, gender dynamics
• 61:01–68:29: Conversion, imitation, and practical application of Clare’s legacy
• 69:23–73:57: Hosts reflect on key lessons and contemporary challenges

Conclusion: Living Forward with Clare

Clare of Assisi stands not just as a supporting character but as a spiritual teacher whose radical humility, steadfast rootedness, and deep contemplation offer a path for modern seekers wrestling with complexity, distraction, and the lure of power. Her witness—fidelity to community, commitment to place, and reflective imitation of Christ—remains a wellspring of guidance for those intent on creating a world “where everything and everyone belongs.”

Invitation to Listeners:

• Reflect: What are you gazing on? Where is your place of commitment?
• Act: Practice uncluttered presence, foster vulnerability, and let contemplation of Jesus ground you in authentic love and service.

Recommended Resource:

• The Light of Assisi: The Story of St. Clare by Sr. Margaret Carney — for a deep, accessible exploration of Clare’s life and spirituality.