The Legacy of Clare with Sr. Margaret Carney

Summary

Podcast Summary: Everything Belongs — “The Legacy of Clare with Sr. Margaret Carney”

Podcast: Everything Belongs: Living the Teachings of Richard Rohr Forward
Host: Center for Action and Contemplation
Guests: Richard Rohr, Sr. Margaret Carney, Paul Swanson, Drew Jackson, Jenna Kuiper, Mike Petro
Date: January 24, 2025
Focus: Exploring St. Clare of Assisi’s enduring impact on contemplative Christianity, relational simplicity, and radical faithfulness, with in-depth insights from Sr. Margaret Carney.

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Overview of the Episode

This episode delves into Chapter 9 (“The Legacy of Living the Life at Depth”) of Richard Rohr’s Eager to Love: The Alternative Way of Francis of Assisi. The hosts and guests examine the overlooked yet profound spiritual legacy of St. Clare of Assisi—her radical commitment to place, simplicity, and community—and discuss how her contemplative lifestyle speaks powerfully to contemporary questions of faith, action, and belonging. The second half features Sr. Margaret Carney, a leading scholar on Clare, who brings to life Clare’s charism, the symbolism of the “mirror”, and how her model challenges and nurtures today’s seekers.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Clare’s Radical Centrality (00:47–03:32)

• Marginalized in Story, Central in Spirit:
  Drew Jackson and Paul Swanson reflect on how Clare is often treated as a side character in Franciscan narratives but, on closer examination, emerges as a central figure with her own genius and radical spirituality.
  “As you get into hearing more about Clare and her story, you realize how central she is to the whole thing.” — Drew Jackson (01:21)

• Living the Teachings Forward:
  Clare didn’t just admire Francis; she embodied his teachings, putting contemplative ideals into loving practice and modeling what Richard Rohr calls “downward mobility”—a radical embrace of poverty and simplicity as means to deep transformation.
  “There’s something about the way that Clare and the sisters embraced this downward mobility that speaks so vibrantly to us today.” — Drew Jackson (02:39)

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2. The Power of Place: Stability and Transformation (06:39–11:08, 35:08–40:19)

• Clare’s 40-Year Commitment to San Damiano:
  Hosts and Richard Rohr compare Clare’s lifelong rootedness at San Damiano to the often-mobile Francis, reflecting on the contemplative and transformative potential of deeply committing to a single place, especially in contrast to contemporary restlessness.

  • Rohr connects this to his own decades at the CAC in Albuquerque (11:08):
    “I’ve learned to love this space more and more as I’ve watched the trees grow around the house… As I reflected on [travel], I have no need to go back… But I’m sure glad I was there.” — Richard Rohr

• Stability as Resistance:
  Sr. Margaret Carney nuances this ideal, noting how the value of rootedness was culturally embedded in medieval Europe—and yet, for Clare, it was also an intentional spiritual discipline that modeled perseverance through challenges and the possibility of transformation through patience and presence.
  “We can be frivolous about the importance of place… But staying with a place and people long enough can bring a bigger life than we imagined.” — Sr. Margaret Carney (36:29)

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3. The Mirror of Clare: Contemplation and Identity (14:16–16:12, 40:19–45:06, 64:54–68:29)

• Not Polishing, But Reflecting:
  Contrary to some cultural or Buddhist interpretations, Rohr clarifies that for Clare, the mirror is not about self-improvement but about faithfully receiving and transmitting Christ’s image:
  “For Clare, it’s trusting the world of reflection, that the energy is transferred by gazing and reflecting… Allowing the reflection.” — Richard Rohr (14:33)

• Becoming Like Christ:
  Sr. Margaret Carney elaborates on Clare’s mirror metaphor:
  “Claire takes [the mirror] and asks: when I look, what do I want to be looking back at me? … She is also, in doing that, giving the sisters the winning lottery ticket of how to become more contemplative… you keep focusing on that in that mirror until, every time you look, you see it more clearly.” (40:39)

• Living as Imitation:
  The mirror metaphor, rooted in Scripture and everyday life, offers a model for transformation that arises not from striving, but from steady, loving contemplation—seeing Christ, absorbing his qualities, and reflecting them outward.

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4. Hiddenness, Vulnerability, and “Show Don’t Tell” (17:12–24:22)

• Beyond the Male Gaze:
  Richard Rohr encourages recognition of Clare’s countercultural withdrawal from public admiration, living “behind the wall” in self-chosen obscurity and dependence on God. “The women deliberately separated themselves… They really refine the process by not going there very much, almost not at all.” — Richard Rohr (17:53)

• Embodied Quiet Witness:
  Clare models a “show, don’t tell” spirituality, quietly living what Francis preached.
  “Where Francis spoke and preached about it, Claire quietly lived it.” — Jenna Kuiper (20:45)
  “She’s a real show, don’t tell.” — Mike Petro (20:54)

• Spiritual Freedom:
  The conversation frames Clare's lifestyle as one internally liberated from needing admiration, rooted in the “purity of heart” arising from clear intention and motivation.

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5. Themes of Conversion and Institutional Challenge (30:56–34:08, 49:50–60:25)

• Conversion as Lifelong Turning:
  Sr. Margaret recalls Franciscan roots in “penitents”—those always ready to turn toward God, not just once but continually. “That idea that it’s not just an initial moment… I have to be ready throughout my life to turn.” — Sr. Margaret Carney (60:25)

• Tension with Institutions:
  Both Sr. Margaret and Drew Jackson grapple with the challenge of maintaining prophetic radicalism within the inertia of large systems—ecclesial, educational, or economic. Movements often struggle to maintain their “sharp edge” as they institutionalize. “The ability to do something new, innovative, radical… depends on individuals and persons with a certain leadership charisma… And I think [Franciscans] need to create friendly incubators for men and women who want to try to develop some of these new possibilities.” — Sr. Margaret Carney (57:43)

• Poverty, Simplicity, and Power:
  The podcast explores the differences in how Franciscan ideals were lived by men and women, the pressures toward accommodation, and the enduring question of living meaningfully without accumulation of wealth or power.

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6. Living Clare’s Legacy Today: Practical Invitations (22:11–23:13, 61:01–68:29)

• Clare’s Joy in Simplicity:
  Rohr remarks on the evident joy of the Poor Clares, their “purity of heart” found in daily motivation rooted in divine love rather than external affirmation.

• Practical Imitation for Modern Listeners:
  Both Richard Rohr and Sr. Margaret Carney stress that while few are called to join a cloister, all are called to the essentials:

  • Contemplate the person of Jesus
  • Invest in community and deep relationships
  • Practice downward mobility—simplicity, service, and attentiveness to others
  • Regularly examine one’s motivations and be open to ongoing conversion
  • Embrace one’s context and commit faithfully before seeking to “move on”

• Sr. Margaret’s Word for Listeners:
  “The first word is contemplate Jesus… I’m living that out in this particular community… It’s the community that gives her every day the chance to exhibit what it is that she has learned from Christ.” (64:54)

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Notable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• Clare’s Centrality:
  “Francis spoke and preached about it, and Clare quietly lived it.” — Jenna Kuiper (20:45)

• Mirror Metaphor Explained:
  “Claire takes… the mirror… and asks, ‘When I look, what do I want to be looking back at me?’” — Sr. Margaret Carney (40:39)

• On Joy and Motivation:
  “From the moment the door opens, it’s all laughter and smiles. I would have to say the Poor Clares are much happier than the friars… by midlife, they found purity of heart.” — Richard Rohr (22:36)

• Conversion as Ongoing Turning:
  “The word penance in that time meant to be ready to turn to God… And that was the way the penitents committed to living.” — Sr. Margaret Carney (60:25)

• Counsel for Doubt and Discouragement:
  “The difference between Peter and Judas: they both betrayed Jesus. One kept hanging around with the other believers, the other went off on his own and destroyed himself. Keep hanging around with the other believers.” — Father Robert McCreary (as quoted by Sr. Margaret Carney, 33:18)

• Living the Radical Way Now:
  “How do we resist… dehumanizing forces that lead us into dehumanizing… one another? … It is hard, but it is a necessary question for all of us to keep wrestling with, to not move away from.” — Drew Jackson (69:27)

• Clare’s Contemplative Action:
  “She stays at—literally—a window, but metaphorically a window to the town. People come, they have personal problems, they need help… She’s a counselor…” — Sr. Margaret Carney (67:37)

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Important Timestamps for Segments

• 00:47–03:32: Initial conversation about Clare’s marginalization and unique genius
• 06:39–11:08: Stability of place; spiritual formation through rootedness
• 14:16–16:12 / 40:19–45:06: Clare’s mirror imagery; contemplation as reflection
• 17:12–24:22: Hiddenness vs. platform; “show don’t tell” spirituality
• 28:02–34:08: Sr. Margaret Carney’s Franciscan journey and call
• 35:08–40:19: Commitment to place in medieval and modern context
• 49:50–60:25: Challenges of institutions, radical poverty, gender dynamics
• 61:01–68:29: Conversion, imitation, and practical application of Clare’s legacy
• 69:23–73:57: Hosts reflect on key lessons and contemporary challenges

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Conclusion: Living Forward with Clare

Clare of Assisi stands not just as a supporting character but as a spiritual teacher whose radical humility, steadfast rootedness, and deep contemplation offer a path for modern seekers wrestling with complexity, distraction, and the lure of power. Her witness—fidelity to community, commitment to place, and reflective imitation of Christ—remains a wellspring of guidance for those intent on creating a world “where everything and everyone belongs.”

Invitation to Listeners:

• Reflect: What are you gazing on? Where is your place of commitment?
• Act: Practice uncluttered presence, foster vulnerability, and let contemplation of Jesus ground you in authentic love and service.

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Recommended Resource:

• The Light of Assisi: The Story of St. Clare by Sr. Margaret Carney — for a deep, accessible exploration of Clare’s life and spirituality.

Transcript

[Podcast Host Intro]

You're listening to a podcast by the center for Action and Contemplation. To learn more, visit cac.org hey, everyone.

[Paul Swanson]

Welcome to Everything Belongs where we seek to live the teachings of Richard Rohr forward.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Today we are talking about Richard's book.

[Paul Swanson]

Eager to Love the Alternative Way of Francis of Assisi. And we're focused on Chapter 9, the legacy of Living the Life at Depth.

[Jenna Kuiper]

And a lot of you are reading.

[Paul Swanson]

Along here with us, but there's no pressure to do so. If you're just absorbing these conversations, you can still get to the depth and the. The marrow of this book through listening to these conversations. And I'm so grateful here to be with Drew Jackson. Drew, how are you doing today?

[Drew Jackson]

I'm doing okay, Paul. How are you?

[Paul Swanson]

I'm good. I'm good. I love these chances for us. Talk about this work and hear how it hits us from the various angles of insight of the Franciscan tradition. I would love to know, since, you know, in the latter half of the conversation, you and I are in conversation with Sister Margaret Carney, an expert on Clara of Assisi. But how about you? When did you first come to know Claire of Assisi? Was she right there alongside Francis when you first entered the Franciscan spiritual tradition?

[Drew Jackson]

You know, I heard about Frances in seminary and heard about Claire very kind of peripherally, like it wasn't a focus, which seems to be on point with the way that Clare is introduced into this conversation with Frances as this side character in the story. Though as you get into hearing more about Clare and her story, you realize how central she is to the whole thing. But it really wasn't until reading Richard's book, Eager to Love, that Claire started to become more in focus and in view. For me, as I thought about Franciscan spirituality.

[Paul Swanson]

Yeah, I loved. I think that's the experience of so many of us where we kind of first learn of Claire. It's almost like a sidekick. And then you start to realize her own vibrant ministry and the specifics of it and her own unique genius that she brought to this movement that was happening. And there's some overlapping themes from the conversation that Mike and I have with Richard and that you and I have with Sister Margaret. And I love one of the things that you brought up later with Sister Margaret, but around the radicality. How does the radicality of Claire's lived experience and offerings speak in this moment, do you think, for understanding the Franciscan tradition and how it can speak to us today?

[Drew Jackson]

Yeah, I mean, there's so much in Claire's life that is really important. I think for us to consider in terms of how we live out this tradition in our context today. Because as Richard reflects on in his book, Claire really took the teachings of Francis and lived them, practically put them into practice. Clare and the sisters kind of brought them forward in a way that the brothers, over time, and I know Richard expounds on that. We ask Sister Margaret Carney about that. And there's really something about the way that Claire and the sisters embrace this downward mobility that speaks so much and so vibrantly to us today.

[Paul Swanson]

I love just kind of letting some of these themes, like, rewash over us as we think about how folks might be prepared to hear them. We circle some of those waters with Richard, and I think it tees up more of the radicality that we get to with Sister Margaret about how she embodies that so much in her spirit. But how Richard, part of his own calling is how does he teach the breath and expression in a way to invite people to first get a first taste of Franciscan spirituality. And then later on, I feel like Sister Margaret pushes us into the deep end of what that means in a lived experience.

[Richard Rohr]

Yeah.

[Drew Jackson]

And just the way that she wrestles with that as she tries to stay in her own life, faithful to the radicality of the tradition being in the midst of institutional life.

[Paul Swanson]

Right.

[Drew Jackson]

So that's one of the things that we ask her about, is how do you do that? How do you wrestle with that? And I think that's a question that for all of us in the various ways that we are living our lives, the jobs that we have, the places we're at, how do we wrestle with the radical call of Francis, of Jesus in the midst of these institutions and lived experiences that we have is an important one for all of us to keep wrestling with.

[Paul Swanson]

Yeah. And that's why I keep being inspired and re inspired by Francis and Claire and Jesus. Like, it's like they keep opening up these windows to what does it mean to live in this kind of radical way of love, no matter your context, to hear Sister Margaret speak of it in the how to live into that in the institutional life is compelling and challenging to think, well, what does that mean for my own location in a nonprofit, in a neighborhood with the pta, just like the little things that the different communities that we touch. So I think there's so much in this conversation to glean from and so many things to take away. So we hope everyone will enjoy this conversation that Mike and I have with Richard as we step into Richard's hermitage. And then after that, the conversation that Drew and I have with Sister Margaret.

[Mike Petro]

From the center for Action and Contemplation. I'm Mike Petro.

[Paul Swanson]

I'm Paul Swanson.

[Drew Jackson]

And I'm Drew Jackson.

[Mike Petro]

And this is everything belong.

[Richard Rohr]

Richard.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Thanks for having us back. It was a delight to talk about the integration of feminine and masculine last time. And today we're going to focus on chapter nine, the legacy of Claire. Living the life at depth and thinking about Claire. And I was thinking about the cac. You know, as the CAC is nearing its fourth decade, it's always been in this block right of Albuquerque this entire almost 40 years.

[Richard Rohr]

Next door here is where we started.

[Jenna Kuiper]

That's what I thought. I was thinking about Claire's 40 year commitment to one spot, her enclosed community, San Damiano, outside the walls of Assisi, and how that was her school of love, prayer and transformation. So as I think about you four decades in Albuquerque, how do you see the CAC in Albuquerque as a school of your love, prayer and transformation?

[Richard Rohr]

Well, I hope it is. I sometimes hope that we are a school and not just a business. And don't hear that wrongly. I don't mean in a terribly negative way, but I sometimes feel the people at a distance from Albuquerque, from the center, are more enamored with our teaching than the staff and the board are. How does that happen? Well, you know, my five man movement, monument machine museum, you can't avoid them. We're already at the monument machine level. And that allows people to buy in at that level. Which is what happened to Benedictine monasticism, which was the form of religious life until Francis. The existing monastery stood on the hilltop on the edge of town. And this defined the monk, defined what sincere Christianity was. But you know what? That's not really fair. Sincere Christianity didn't demand celibacy, didn't demand living in a big building where you shared everything in common. You know, in terms of my order disorder reorder. The first 1200 years in terms of sincere practitioners were the monastic movement. What Francis represents is disorder.

[Mike Petro]

Oh, interesting.

[Richard Rohr]

He is, is not an imperial looking for more identification with the state, with order, with ownership, with obedience to an abbot. It's not top down. He takes the top down and he makes it shoulder to shoulder. But he doesn't throw out the respect for obedience. It's a new combination, obedience, but not the idealization of obedience to another person.

[Mike Petro]

I love that when you. I think of Francis and Claire together as a dyad, the two of them. You have Francis who's always on the road, he's always walking he's, like, always going somewhere, and then you have Claire who stays in one place. And I love both of those movements together. You know, when I hear people talk about stability of place as a monastic value or a contemplative value. I'm 47. I've moved every five years, a big move. I've moved to a different region of the country every five years, the entirety of my adult life. So I don't relate to that. And lately, I crave. My favorite mythologist, Martin Shaw, talks about the difference between being from a place and of a place. I crave connection with a place and a community. You've been. How long have you been in this house, Richard?

[Richard Rohr]

This house? Yeah. 26.

[Mike Petro]

26 years in this house. 40 years in Albuquerque. Is there. And you have a little bit of Francis Sinclair because you've also traveled the world and done all this, but you've come home to this one place for four decades. Has it taught you something? The stability of just being here for so long?

[Richard Rohr]

I've learned to love this space more and more as I've watched the trees grow around the house, some of which we planted. As I've reflected on, I'll see movies of Germany or France or Italy, and I can almost always say, oh, I was there, I was there, I was there. And it's wonderful, but I have no need to go back. But I'm sure glad I was there. I wouldn't have the energy to do them again. Food was sure good.

[Mike Petro]

Well, I love having listened to you in this turn in the last few years with your focus on the practice of gazing and that idea of, you know, I love when Ram Dass says, you know, love a cat, love a tree, love anything, and let that move you to love itself.

[Richard Rohr]

That's right.

[Mike Petro]

Yeah. Your just willingness to be here and stay with one thing over time and let it teach you.

[Richard Rohr]

And yet to love one thing is to learn to love everything. It's the same process. It's the same surrender. It's the same energy.

[Mike Petro]

So I don't want to reduce. We'd be so wrong to reduce Claire to a figure in Frances story because she was a teacher in her own right, and it seems like she taught Frances quite a bit. What do you think Claire taught Frances and teaches us first?

[Richard Rohr]

Honest answer is, I don't know. There's one wonderful story, and it's now immortalized in some sculpture down in the plain below Assisi, where one of the few times she left San Damiano was to have a picnic with Francis and another Nun and another friar. But there is now four statues sitting on the ground in this area which they think it might have happened. She allowed herself to be taught by him, but he allowed himself to be taught by her. But what was it? I don't know. Not that I doubt, but certainly I do think he admired her contentment in one place, whereas he's traveling all over central and northern Italy.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Well, to keep going with Claire and thinking about Clare's spiritual genius. And, you know, it does get overlooked because Francis was such a larger than life Franciscanism. Yes.

[Richard Rohr]

We don't call it clarism. True.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Right. Thanks to authors like Sister Margaret Carney, the vitality of Clare is being shared more now than ever.

[Richard Rohr]

Yes.

[Jenna Kuiper]

And, you know, we've already touched in previous episodes about Claire's use the mirror as an image and polishing the mirror as her favorite metaphor for doing the work. To be able to reflect God and likeness.

[Mike Petro]

So good.

[Jenna Kuiper]

So thinking about how a person like that gets formed, you know, let me correct you.

[Richard Rohr]

It's not really polishing the mirror that's more Buddhism for Claire. It's trusting the world of reflection, that the energy is transferred by gazing and reflecting.

[Jenna Kuiper]

So our role rather than polishing is just allow.

[Richard Rohr]

Allowing the reflection.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Okay.

[Richard Rohr]

If you read her paragraphs, one mirror, it's always reflecting.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Okay.

[Richard Rohr]

Not getting a more perfect mirror. In fact, that would make her very different than a lot of teachers. It's not about asceticism or moral improvement in Claire, nor is it in Francis. Go ahead.

[Jenna Kuiper]

No, thank you for that. Because those details matter. Those details matter.

[Mike Petro]

Well, it feels like, Richard, you become more Claire, like as you've gotten older.

[Richard Rohr]

Well, probably, yeah. Just to accept the impression that comes your way as a gift, let it rub off on you, is the way we talk and all starting with Jesus as the impression of the Father he received. Then he turns the mirror on us and we receive. But it's not a moral asceticism. It gets us there. It's a reflection. Yeah, go ahead.

[Jenna Kuiper]

No, thank you. Thank you for that. I want to think about these three different aspects of Claire and what they might have to teach us as contemplatives in the world today. We have Claire's own personhood with this mirror image. She founded a community outside the walls of Assisi. So outside the walls of the dominant structure at the time, and adopted a radical rule of life where poverty was bringing her closer to God. What do you think? Taking this mirror, this being outside of the empire, and also adopting a radical rule of life. What do you think we have to learn from her? As contemplatives in the world today, that may be a little distinct from what we had to learn from Frances, knowing that they overlap and are enmeshed and the waves pour over each other. But what do you think we particularly have to learn from Claire? Considering those three elements, what comes to mind?

[Richard Rohr]

I'm not sure it's the best answer, but the absolute centrality of lifestyle, of situating oneself inside the mystery of vulnerability. In her case, not being structurally supported, structurally admired. You know, when you shut yourself off, you don't just shut yourself off from the economic system, but from the gaze of other people telling you how wonderful you are.

[Mike Petro]

Wow.

[Richard Rohr]

If you go to San Damiano, you'll see that the sisters all lived behind a wall. So if they had the admiration of Assisi, they didn't get to enjoy it. The men did. Who they probably needed it, but they had to seek the reflection from God alone on a daily basis to know their own value. They couldn't seek like we clergy can get it. People admire our sermon or admire our ministry, or admire our quaint brown robe or whatever. They really refine the process by not going there very much, almost not at all. When you go into the present Santa Chiara Church in upper Assisi. In the medieval period, they finally had to move out of San Damiano, up the hill, inside the walls. History had become so violent that everybody was afraid the nuns would be attacked. And so the nuns, we never forgave them for them because by night they stole the San Damiano cross and took it up there. They still have it. The cross that spoke to Francis hangs in the upper church. When you come in the Upper Church, just sit there a while and you'll hear the feminine voices from the upper choir loft, where you can't see them chanting. So you know they exist. You hear their song, but you can't see them. The women deliberately separated themselves. They had begging nuns who went out every day into Assisi. Wish I could take you all there and walk you down the hill. From the gate to San Damiano, it's about a 12 minute, 15 minute walk, rather steep walk.

[Mike Petro]

It is interesting to think about the sort of activism, cultural criticism and countercultural move to step out of the male gaze in a patriarchal culture. That's it.

[Richard Rohr]

Step out of the male gaze. We don't need your admiration.

[Jenna Kuiper]

You've touched on it so well. Where Francis spoke and preached about it. And Claire quietly lived it.

[Richard Rohr]

Quietly lived it.

[Mike Petro]

She's a real show. Don't Tell.

[Richard Rohr]

Yeah.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Which is a.

[Richard Rohr]

A real. What show? Don't tell showed. Oh, very good. Yeah, yeah.

[Jenna Kuiper]

I think in a time of A lot of telling right now, a lot of shouting from platforms. It's lovely to be reminded of the. The way of Claire of just. Just quietly doing what she does.

[Richard Rohr]

Quietly doing it and not needing. Are wanting your admiration.

[Mike Petro]

Well, I love.

[Richard Rohr]

So I have to depend totally on the admiration of God.

[Mike Petro]

Yes. You describe her as living with such depth in charity, in choosing and facing human limitation, that she created a lifestyle that made both depth and divine encounter highly possible, emotionally necessary and normally inevitable. It's a great sentence and it's a great way to live. Short of our listeners going and joining the poor Claire's, how would you invite our listeners into the potentiality of possibility that Claire created with her lifestyle, with her reflection, with her commitment to place, with her leadership.

[Richard Rohr]

It's somehow seeking purity of heart. I wish we had nearby a convent of healthy, poor Claire's. We have such a community in Cincinnati on the grounds of the minor seminary. They're out in the woods now, but from the moment the door opens, it's all laughter and smiles.

[Mike Petro]

Wow.

[Richard Rohr]

I would have to say the poor Claire's are much happier than the friars. Not that we're grumpy, but the nuns are just light hearted because I think by midlife they found purity of heart. Why am I doing this every day?

[Mike Petro]

And I have to ask, as we close, for some of our listeners, they might hear that in a different way. Purity heart and purity culture and purity notes could not be more different.

[Richard Rohr]

It has nothing to do with sex. Purity of heart has to do with motivation that has been purified. You have to have to get up each day over many days and ask yourself, why am I doing this? And unless you come up with an answer of for the love of. For the love of my wife and my children, you need, as most of America needs now, fame and money and power.

[Mike Petro]

But that commitment to a task, it reminds me of that movie that you talk about.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Oh, Perfect Days.

[Mike Petro]

Yeah.

[Richard Rohr]

Oh yeah.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Perfect Days is a beautiful movie by, directed by Vim Vendors about a man in Japan who cleans toilets. And he is. This one you're thinking about?

[Mike Petro]

Yep, 100%.

[Jenna Kuiper]

And he does it with such dedication, such joy, as a way of service. And you just watch him. The movie's mostly quiet. He barely speaks throughout the film. But you see his attention to detail, his attention to nature, his attention to those that he's serving. And to me it's one of the most contemplative movies I've ever seen.

[Richard Rohr]

Was it ever in the theater?

[Jenna Kuiper]

It was briefly. I think it was nominated for best Foreign film last year. I was just blown away by it. I know. I'll revisit it many times. And then as you see the intrusion of suffering, you see him wrestle with it, but maintain that same dedication and joy, despite circumstances, that his joy is larger than the trial.

[Richard Rohr]

You know, he's written to me.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Yes, I do. Yes.

[Richard Rohr]

Yeah.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Yeah. I think he makes remarkable films like that, that point to this day.

[Richard Rohr]

Yeah, I'll look for it.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Yeah.

[Mike Petro]

That commitment to a task or a service or a place or a tree or a cat.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Yeah, it's so.

[Mike Petro]

It's so beautiful. And what space for reflection. I. Yeah. Thanks both of you for this. This has been a really enlightening conversation.

[Paul Swanson]

It's been great.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Thank you, Richard. Thank you, Mike.

[Mike Petro]

Thank you, Claire.

[Jenna Kuiper]

And Opie.

[Mike Petro]

And Opie.

[Richard Rohr]

Who's the man in Kentucky? The farmer?

[Jenna Kuiper]

Wendell Berry.

[Richard Rohr]

Wendell Berry. He's an example of this. Who learns how to love one piece of land and talk about it so well.

[Jenna Kuiper]

I was going to bring him up earlier. He's got this great line about how maybe the gifts of marriage aren't actually available until you've been married for 50 years. And what I like about that line is just that maybe it's that long term commitment where you learn so much about yourself and how to love. Because you know, over and over again you don't know how to love.

[Richard Rohr]

Yeah. You don't know how to love.

[Jenna Kuiper]

And so after 50 years, maybe you've begun. And I just find that so humbling as somebody who's trying to figure out how to love.

[Paul Swanson]

Thanks again, Richard, for the time today.

[Richard Rohr]

Thank you.

[Mike Petro]

Wonderful. Thank you. Thank you.

[Richard Rohr]

Thank you for caring about such things. Thank you. God bless.

[Mike Petro]

Everything belongs. Will continue in a moment.

[Paul Swanson]

Today, Drew and I are in conversation with Sister Margaret Carney. Margaret Carney is a member of The Sisters of St. Francis of the Newman Communities. Her education in theology and Franciscan studies took place at Duquesne University, the Franciscan Institute of Saint Bonaventure University, and the Pontifical University Antonium in Rome, to name but a few of Sister Margaret's accolades. She was the Director of the Franciscan Institute, a founding member of the Commission on the Franciscan Intellectual Tradition, president of Saint Bonaventure University, and continues to serve as a lecturer and leader for Catholic higher education and Franciscan organizations of the United States. Sister Margaret's most recent book is the Light of Assisi, the story of St. Clair.

[Richard Rohr]

Foreign.

[Paul Swanson]

Sister Margaret, welcome to everything Belongs. We're so thrilled to have you here to talk about Chapter 9, the legacy of Claire Living the Life at Depth. When we were first talking with Father Richard about who you might want to be in conversation with on this book, your name got mentioned, and he was over the moon, and he was like, do you think we can get her? Because his respect for your writing and teaching is on the next level. And so it was really fun to hear Richard respond in that way. So we just want to say welcome, and we're thrilled to have this conversation with you. And kind of as a way to begin, we would love to know you've immersed yourself so much in Franciscan spirituality and have written so exquisitely on Claire. How did you first get introduced to Francis and Claire of Assisi?

[Sister Margaret Carney]

Well, just by way of preface, let me say that I'm very happy to be got by. Everything belongs for Father Richard. It's an honor, really. I began to be really attracted to the way of Francis as a teenager, because back in that time, which is a very long time ago, people before the age of 21 could be admitted to the secular Franciscan order. And there were a group of dynamic Capuchins here in the Pittsburgh area where I was growing up that worked with the Franciscan high schools. There were four at the time to create high school level fraternities of Franciscans. And it would begin with, you know, you'd go off to a retreat house for a day, and you'd come out like, I want to be like Francis. And so you entered into this organization. And one of the things that we did during my time, which was pretty advanced, was we set up a very intentional way of relating to the adult fraternities so that we were not just a group of teenagers moaning and complaining and talking to each other, but that we had a lot of adult friends giving us a hand to move forward. By the time I was ready to graduate, I knew, though, that I wanted to really enter the Franciscan order, which I did. And since that time, I think I have been able to stay the course because of numerous Franciscan men and women, but also men and women who aren't in the order, but who value religious life and the work that needs to be done and the life that needs to be lived. And so I'm still here in that spirit.

[Paul Swanson]

Sister Margaret, it's wonderful to hear how you were drawn into this. What was it that eventually made you decide that you wanted to enter into religious life?

[Sister Margaret Carney]

I think that I really felt I was called to it. You know, it's a mysterious thing. It Wasn't that I didn't have other attractions. I wanted to write the great American novel, to be another Emily Dickinson or to marry and have a family. But this attraction to living as Frances lived took over all of that. And I just wanted to get as close to that as I could. And I was in a high school taught by Franciscan sisters who, once they realized that I was getting serious about this, of course, gave a lot of support. And it was a time when a lot of young people still looked at religious life as an attractive option.

[Drew Jackson]

Sister Margaret I mean, there's so much about Frances life that I know personally, for me, is so compelling. Was there something specific about Frances Witness that was, like, really compelling for you and moving you toward stepping into religious life?

[Sister Margaret Carney]

I think Drew, it was the joy, the fact that he was always focused on the life of Jesus, the suffering of Jesus, all right, the suffering of the poor. But this joy bubbled up inside of him, you know, like a living spring of water. And I think it's the mystery of how do you live constantly engaged with the thought of a suffering savior, suffering all around you, and still have that inner energy from the Holy Spirit. And so I do think that that was a magnet. Like, is it possible to live that way and to discover how one maintains that balance? And it's become, I would say, even more important and more challenging with the passing years.

[Drew Jackson]

To that end, I know you've spent so much time inside of institutions, be it church, be it educational institutions, and how has that meshed or clashed with embodying that prophetic and radical Franciscan lineage?

[Sister Margaret Carney]

Drew. The way to work into those situations as a Franciscan is not one single way. So, for example, there have been times when my work has been in a totally Franciscan setting, Saint Bonaventure University. And in some ways, it's almost like a dream job, because everybody knows what we're about is a Franciscan mission. Do we keep our ideals? Do we act optimally all the time? No, we don't. But it's clear what should be and what we should all be striving for. At other times, the mission of the place or the people or the local community was a little more diffuse. A parish, a high school, et cetera. And I think what can happen, and this was happening to me in my younger years, was you become discouraged. You just feel that what your ideals are in this form, you know, whether it was a school or your own religious community or, you know, the local diocese was just so far from what you thought was the right thing that you could become, you could just, you know, chuck the whole thing. And I was always blessed to have really wise friends and mentors. And I remember one in particular, Father Robert McCreary, now deceased, who said to me, Margaret, the difference between Peter and Judas, they both betrayed Jesus. One kept hanging around with the other believers, the other went off on his own and destroyed himself. Keep hanging around with the other believers. And, and I just thought that was terrific advice. I look back now and I know it was terrific advice.

[Paul Swanson]

That line about hanging around believers and that not moving towards isolation. And it reminded me of something that I'm very interested in about Claire's Life, about her 40 year commitment to place, her enclosed community and like participating in that as the school of love, of transformation, the school of prayer. And I think about that now in our very, you know, we live in a. In a culture that quickly picks up and moves, doesn't think about place, and that is the grounds of one's ministry and service to the world. What do you think we can learn from Claire's commitment to place in today's world? What is she teaching us, do you think?

[Sister Margaret Carney]

Paul, I think you're onto something very important. First of all, let me say we look back from the vantage point of the 21st century and we think about somebody committing to stay in one place for a lifetime, and it just feels like mission impossible. However, had she not entered into a monastery, she probably still would have been in one place, which is the family palazzo. You know, she would have been part of this noble family. So the notion that one is constantly on the move is, I think, so much a part of the American experience. You know, we're always pushing westward. Of course, we've pushed westward, now we're pushing to Mars. But it's always like, let's conquer the next thing. And I think for Europeans, places, you stay rooted in a place even though it's long ceased to function. The Roman Forum, for example. But it tells you something about who you are. So I do think that we can be, shall we say, frivolous about the importance of place. And yet we have to be able to look at places as places where life and grace and really good things happen in our. Facilitated by what are the contents of the place in terms of people and environment. But at the same time, the places can become a prison and we can become either so attached or so enmeshed that we can't move out of it. But I do think we have a tendency in our culture, when something isn't working, move on, get rid of it, put it behind you. Some advice I've given to young friends, to recent college graduates. Very often your first job is not the dream job you thought you were going to get. And don't be too quick to quit that job because you don't want the first thing in your record of employment to be. You lasted six months. It's like we don't have the stick to itiveness of staying with a place and people long enough to break through, to see if maybe there is a bigger life than what we imagine or experience in the initial stage. And I think for Claire, the place, of course, was prepared by Frances for her. So it wasn't simply, you know, the people from the local realty company came down and said, claire, we have three old monasteries for you to look at. Francis had worked on this building and actually predicted that someday women would live there, which a lot of people think is very mysterious. But he knew about this movement of women to form small households of Christian life and piety. And so it's not too much to imagine that he was thinking, what am I doing this for? Well, maybe someday we'll have some women come and be part of this, you know.

[Paul Swanson]

And I appreciate the lens of extracting lessons from our context and how it would have been very different back then. And part of what I heard in that, your response as well, was that was the life of the times in Italy, in Assisi, of that time. And would you say that her commitment was more to the community or just. That was just the circumstances of the life in those times?

[Sister Margaret Carney]

I would say it was the circumstance of the life. I mean, once you entered into a religious or monastic form of life and San Damiano became more monastic within five years, because of the Church's determinations about it, you did not expect ever to leave that place unless you were sent to help found another monastery or, you know, there was a fire or a flood. In other words, you cast the anchor of your soul and that's where you would be. So it wasn't as though you're always like, gee, I wonder where I can move to next. It's not part of the mental horizon of people.

[Drew Jackson]

Sister Margaret, one of the things that comes through in Claire's work is the metaphorical image of the mirror seems to be a favorite image of hers. And I was wondering if you could just elaborate a little bit on Clare's use of the mirror and what she meant by it and what we can learn from it.

[Sister Margaret Carney]

Well, I think Richard, of course, does a wonderful job of opening this up for us. And seeing what a rich pathway it is. So let me say, first of all, we need to know that the mirrors that Claire would have known in her time are not quite the way ours are. This, you know, glass that gives you a perfect reflection. It was a polished metal. The reflection would not have been quite as photographically accurate, but it was, for all of that, a mirror. And I believe that probably mirrors were a sensation for women in particular, you know, who had to dress with, you know, very beautiful headdresses and hairstylings and things of that nature. And so Claire takes that and asks, when I look, what do I want to be looking back at Me? And she uses that to give her sisters a way of thinking about what it means to gradually become a living example of what St. Paul said. I no longer live. It is Christ who lives in me. So if I'm looking at that mirror, can I begin to see that Christ is living in me? And so she offers that idea, and then she sort of works it through very carefully. You know, look at the edges and look at the center. But she is also, in doing that, giving the sisters the winning lottery ticket of how to become more contemplative. And the winning lottery ticket is you learn who was Jesus. You learn what he said, what he did, how he responded, how he did not respond, and that you keep focusing on that in that mirror until every time you look, you see it more clearly. And so, on the one hand, it's a metaphor where it's a little, you know, the woman is looking at the mirror. She's seeing Christ. Claire is very clear. You're seeing what you have studied because you're listening to the Gospel. You're listening to the sermons of the friars or Cistercian monks who came and preached to them at San Damiano. So we're absorbing everything we can to know who Jesus was and who he is. And that becomes what you reflect out to the world.

[Drew Jackson]

That's such a beautiful image, as you say, that I keep hearing that refrain from the apostle Paul where he says, for you have died, and your life is hidden with Christ in God. And to see that reflected back to you, and then to mirror that out into the world, that's beautiful.

[Sister Margaret Carney]

I'll share one little anecdote about how powerfully that image came to play a role later in my life, after I was done with my studies for a period of time, I was the minister of my congregation, and we entered into a dramatic renovation of our chapel, which was pretty scary because the sisters loved the chapel as it was. But it really needed to be updated. And so we had a remarkable young designer and architect working with us. And we started to work on the processional cross, you know, the cross you carry in at the beginning of mass or for a big ceremony. And of course, we said we wanted to be like the San Damiano cross in the shape. And he began to talk out loud about what might happen with the figure of Jesus. And all of a sudden, I just blurted out, could there be a mirror? And everybody just looked at me like, are you kidding? I said, no, could we make it a mirror? He did. He created an orb in the middle of that cross. And when the cross moved down the aisle, all the sisters were reflected in it. So can be very meaningful.

[Paul Swanson]

What a story. And that metaphor of the mirror has been potent in my own life, learning from Claire in that way. And one of the things about Claire is. Oh, let me just say this about all the saints. Like St. Francis is such a popular saint, and, you know, there are statues everywhere, so many, you know, towns and churches named after him. And he kind of overshadows almost every other saint that I can think of. And I think there's a loss in that of, like, Claire has so much to offer. And so I want to ask you, Sister Margot, what do you think that Claire uniquely offers that you wish more people would know about her outside the shadow of Francis? Not negating the fact that they had a wonderful relationship, but what would you love for people to know more about Claire, about whether it's her. Her person or her practices?

[Sister Margaret Carney]

Well, let me say first, something about the shadow of Frances, and to say that there was a kind of inevitability, that she would be overshadowed because the male branches of the Franciscan order for eight centuries have been able to have their men educated, keep the chronicles, men who were authors, scholars. So telling the story of Francis and the order always had resources. The women's monasteries didn't have that. Every monastery was independent. Some had a library that was fabulous, some very little. So you have a big difference in the resources for managing the scholarship necessary or the learning necessary. And so only when we come into the 20th century and you start to have the rising women's movement, do people start realizing, oh, my golly, we've ignored these women. Let's start looking. And I'm happy to say the shadow of Frances is gradually moving away, and Claire is more and more emerging as a co. Equal partner in this movement's founding and flourishing. So I do think that what she represents that is different is precisely. And this goes Back to your earlier question, Paul. The stability of trying to develop the life in a stable community, in a stable place where circumstances remain somewhat predictable over time. So you learn how to govern, you learn how to manage problems, you learn where to go for help when you live in that kind of a circumstance. The friars were itinerant when they began to move away from central Italy. A they didn't know languages, they didn't understand the cultures they moved into. And they could often get into real trouble because of that. And so the ability for them to come up with forms of community, governing forms of even observing material poverty. For example, when the friars went to England, they were forbidden to beg. Why? England is an island economy. England could not afford to have a lot of begging religious going door to door. The people barely had enough. So the friars quickly had to come up with a means to be able to feed themselves that didn't depend just on baking. So we need to understand that encountering the difference in culture, in mission, in place, had a huge impact on the friars. And Claire was able to leave us an example of in a stable situation. Here are some of the ways that you grow and move together. And I would say, as the friars more and more created similarly stable situations. You know, monasteries in every town and little village and a form of governance that was able to be renewed every couple of years and so on, they too came to that. But they were an enormous international organization with very different problems and very different potential.

[Drew Jackson]

You know, one of the things that Father Richard articulates in his chapter on Clare is that is that over time, the Franciscan brothers largely got caught up in institutions and with power. And in doing so, there was a loss of their social critique. And he says Francis radical poverty was soon forgotten, deemed impossible, or quietly rejected, for it placed him in a different social class than men prefer, quite specifically the minors and not the majors. And then he goes on to say, he says only Claire and her sisters created a way for the radical life of Francis to be actually lived with freedom and joy. And so what I understand Richard to be getting at here is the difficulty that the male ego has because of its relationship to power in embracing the downward path modeled by Francis and Claire. And so I just would love to invite you to speak just what are your thoughts on this, and would you articulate it similarly or differently? How have you seen that played out?

[Sister Margaret Carney]

Well, the whole downward mobility vocation of Franciscans is certainly a big challenge. So I would offer these reflections. First of all, it is true that Claire and the sisters were able to hold onto an ideal that was very strenuous. And what we need to realize is the poverty that she wanted was that the sisters would not own vast lands of property, which monasteries typically owned and then rented out. And the tenant farmer would farm that property and bring produce or revenues back to the monastery. That's how the monasteries lived. That's how the women were fed and clothed. And Claire is saying, no, no, no, we don't want that. And church leaders are like, what do you mean, you don't want that? That's the only way. And Claire is basically saying, watch me. Give me a chance here. Just give me a chance. So Claire is trying to demonstrate that women would be capable of earning their own way at a level of poverty and simplicity, with the right circumstances, and that they don't need to own gazillions of acres or hectares of farmland or buildings or water mills, that there is a path which they can be successful. What is happening with the friars is a very different situation. And I want to say that we see the friars, and I think Richard is clear about this falling away from the ideal. And once you start to fall away, you find all kinds of ways to justify it. But I would also say that we need to really understand the structures that made living the initial ideal really difficult, if not impossible for the order once it reached a certain size. So, for example, in the early years of Francis, the numbers of men were small. They could arrive in Assisi or Bologna or Spoleto and go around knocking on doors, and there'd be enough soup for. For lunch. Once you've got 5,000 people, you're not knocking on the doors to get soup for lunch. There has to be some kind of system to provide for those large numbers. And the other thing is that once you move into these other economic realities, like going to England or going to Germany, you may have to deal with the financial system of that country. Now, Francis doesn't want anybody touching money, having money, being able to conduct any kind of commerce. It becomes impossible. And so for 800 years, I will say 700, because I think in the last hundred, there's been huge sea change. The friars have struggled with the agony of how do we live, really an impossible formula, and at the same time manage to move forward in time and in the various cultures and economic systems of which we are a part. So the friars challenges, I think, have been huge. And I would also say that size and the success of being a clerical group of men. So, in other words, it's not only there. A lot of them A lot of them are priests, which means there is regular salary. There are gifts from grateful people. There are endowments to churches and to cemeteries. So the funding that comes because of priestly ministry is an asset that the sisters don't have to deal with. They're not going to see that kind of income. So you've got two really different sets of problems. And I do think that we're now reaching a place in Franciscan history where the real question that we need to face up to is, do we have a way of first living, secondly expressing, and then legislating for a poverty. It's a very hard word in the 21st century. A poverty that speaks to the economic system of our time. And I would submit that we have not done that well at all because we're seen as always very secure, as people that always can kind of manage to get an education, to have nice houses, et cetera, et cetera. So where we see this return to a more radical evangelical poverty is usually in breakaway groups or in new foundations. And sometimes they last and sometimes they don't. But the size of the group matters enormously in terms of what you can enjoin on a group of human beings about doing without. And just let me add the health. We live in an era where the need to take care of health is enormous, and the obligation of leaders to be able to care for the health of members is enormous. And so how do you enter into that very fraught part of our lives here in North America without just throwing up your hands and saying, oh, well, you know, we just, you know, buy the most expensive of everything to take care of ourselves?

[Drew Jackson]

I mean, part of what I hear you you saying is, is that it is extremely difficult for movements that start. They're small, they're. They're grassroots in a way, right? And as they grow and become more institutionalized, to keep that same connection to the radicality that was there at the beginning of the movement, to sustain that forward and to live outside of the systems. It's an ongoing challenge. And the welcoming of wrestling with that question. I'm sitting with that as you articulate that.

[Sister Margaret Carney]

Well, Drew, you're exactly right. And the reality is that the ability to do something new, innovative, radical, first of all, it depends on individuals and persons with a certain leadership charisma. You know, it's gotta be somebody who says, I'm thinking about this in a way that someone else says, I'll join you. You know, sometimes somebody can roll out their dream, and you're thinking, good luck, buddy. Send me a Postcard, you know, if you manage to do this, but at other times, you're like, I want to be part of that. And I think one of the things the Franciscan order needs to do is find a way to create friendly incubators for men and women who want to try to develop some of these new possibilities but may need some help to do that. That's not easy to do, because in my limited experience of working with some younger Franciscans who are looking for new pathways, when you say we want to form a new intentional form of life, how many people are going to uproot their present life form in order to make that happen? And so I don't know that we'll see lots of that, but I do think we have opportunities to give help to groups that they may be founding a new religious community, or maybe not. Maybe they're just a group of Catholics, Christians, an ecumenical group that are on fire with the Franciscan ideal and are going to do what they can with it. But you also want to keep a certain level of discernment and discretion, because sometimes a group like that can go overboard, and before you know it, you're working with a group of people who are more of a cult than a creed.

[Jenna Kuiper]

Mm.

[Paul Swanson]

So I'm taking notes here as you're sharing all that, and there's a few things that jump out in relation to this. You know, you named the. The falling away from the ideal. And I think about how one of the things that Father Richard articulates in this chapter is the theme of conversion is central to Francis and Claire. And I feel like what I hear you saying is, in the here and now of our moment, how should Franciscans have a sense of conversion for their way of life in relationship to poverty, in relationship to place, in relationship to this moment in time? Can you speak a little bit more to that, that sense of conversion, that Franciscan conversion as a central theme?

[Sister Margaret Carney]

Yeah, Paul, you're singing my song. Because that initial experience of conversion, of being a penitent, is the root charism of our Third Order history. You know, the early, early, early lay people that joined Francis and didn't become nuns or friars were called the penitents. And their call, the word penance in that time meant to be ready to turn to God. And, you know, Francis summed it up with the great commandment, love of God, whole heart, whole soul, whole strength, and love of neighbor. And that was the way the penitents committed to living. But that idea that it's not just an initial moment. I go through this religious conversion and then I'm set. I have to be ready throughout my life to turn. The Hebrew word that preceded the Latin penitentia is shuval, and it means to turn. The Greek word metanoia, to be transformed. So throughout life, we're faced with different challenges about how one may give real evidence of being led by these Franciscan ideals. And so I do think that it's possible, for example, to look at, let's just say, in my own experience, I became a university president. All right? So I had many decisions that I had to make about being a university president. That is this consistent with the way I see myself trying to be an authentic Franciscan. And some of the decisions you make are not what most Franciscans would make. To have a membership in the local business club where all the top business leaders go for lunch. Well, you have that as a university president because you go there to conduct the business of your university for lunch. Nobody thinks twice about it in the larger society. But all the nuns are like, oh, you're going off to the club again, you know, good for you. So you find yourself in those circumstances, and it's easy to get used to. But as long as you keep honest about, am I getting too used to this? Maybe. And there are lots of examples along the way of, you know, the vehicle you drive, the way you vacation, et cetera, where you can decide, I'm going to be just like my peers who are laymen and women, or no, I can't be like my peers. Even though I belong in that category of people, I still have to live as a Franciscan. So there are constant decisions that you're called to make. And I would say the thing you don't want to do is become obsessed and overly scrupulous so that you don't pay attention to certain social expectations. And at the same time, you have the inner freedom to say, I need to do this because it's part of my work and it will advance the mission of my institution. And so I do think that constant ability to be honest about, do I need to turn away from this and turn to that, Is a big part of keeping you on a level playing field.

[Drew Jackson]

I think so much of what you said really leads into what I think is an appropriate last question, a place for us to land. And, you know, there's a. An awareness in Claire of modeling over speaking the life that the spirit calls her to show. Don't tell, right? There's this living, this showing. And so short of joining the poor, Claire's. What word might you offer to lean into Claire's uncluttered life example to what you write was full of such depth and charity in choosing and facing human limitation created a lifestyle that made both depth and divine encounter highly possible, emotionally necessary, and normally inevitable. What word might you offer those listening?

[Sister Margaret Carney]

Well, Drew, you're going to have to give me more than one word, all right?

[Drew Jackson]

Collection of words.

[Sister Margaret Carney]

Yeah, Give me a break here, Drew. I would say the first word is back to our reflection on the mirror. The first word is contemplate. Jesus, you know, because he is our guide, and following in his footprints, you know, as Francis taught, is the surest path forward for us. But where am I living out that following of Jesus? I'm living it out in this particular community of women and men because the friars were constantly in and out working with her. Even after the death of Francis, we see that the most loyal of the old guard, if you will, stayed in communion with her right up to her death. I call it a conspiracy of hearts. You know, they were the ones holding onto the original ideals. So as she holds onto that ideal in a community, it's the community that gives her every day the chance to exhibit what it is that she has learned from Christ. And so you feed the hungry. Is there enough food? Do we need the brother who helps us to go out and get us more bread or more oil? And we have these little vignettes of the sisters going out to beg, and the brother is helping them. Are the sisters warm enough? We have these wonderful images of her putting the blankets over the sisters and taking care of the sick. Her care for the sick was a very, very big thing. And even Francis writes and he commends the sisters who are fatigued because of the care of the sick. So that was a major piece of constantly offering love and support so that these women would not feel they had made a mistake in joining with Claire and her sisters. And she makes all kinds of allowances for the six sisters. And finally, she stays at. I'm going to use a window, literally a window, but metaphorically a window to the town. People come, they have personal problems they need help with. They have a child who is sick. They have issues, perhaps with the bishop or with the mayor. She's a counselor. I had one, poor Clare, who lived at Assisi, not at the main monastery, but at the same Margaret. There was no emergency room in Assisi. San Damiano was the emergency room. You took your sick person there because those women understood medicinal healing, and you could get help there. So, you know, she doesn't just close herself off and Sit in chapel day by day. And I think that's one of the things we can mistake, that these women have unimpeded hours of reading the Scripture. Now, we know Claire was able to sustain a trance like contemplative moment, but I think on a day to day basis, she was one hard working gal. Taking care of the sick, meeting the visitors, making sure they had enough in the kitchen. You know, is it a drought? Do we need to water the garden more? Teaching the younger sisters, she every day was building up that community in the spirit of Jesus.

[Paul Swanson]

I want to recommend anyone who's interested in diving more into Claire to read your work Light of Assisi as a way to steep in the life and work and ministry and spirituality of Claire.

[Sister Margaret Carney]

Thank you. I am pleased. I think the feedback I'm getting is that book has unveiled Claire.

[Paul Swanson]

Yes.

[Sister Margaret Carney]

To lots and lots of people who really did not know her well. Yeah.

[Paul Swanson]

Thank you so much for your time. It's a gift for us to be in conversation with you on this. I think we're walking away with full hearts and so much to think about. Drew, it's always a joy to be in conversation with you. And we just got off the horn with Sister Margaret. I'm curious, how did that conversation land for you?

[Sister Margaret Carney]

What.

[Paul Swanson]

What percolated for you in that time with Sister Margaret?

[Drew Jackson]

There's so much in that conversation I'm still sitting with. Her reflections on just the difficulty of living the radical way of Jesus that was exemplified by both Francis and Claire. Like how difficult that is as things become more institutionalized and getting caught up just in the systems of our present age. And she specifically spoke about the economic system. How do you live outside of that? Is it even possible? Like, these are the things that the questions that I'm sitting with and what does it mean to have an authentic critique of the ways that our systems are pulling us to live in ways that are oppressive, that are oppressive not just to one another, but even to our own souls. And because that's to me, is so much of what the invitation is in this way of simplicity, this downward path of poverty, is that it is a way to resist these dehumanizing forces that lead us into dehumanizing not only ourselves, but also one another. And to say, how do we resist that, it is hard. That's what I kept hearing from Sister Margaret, that it is hard, but it is necessary question for all of us to keep wrestling with, to keep sitting with, to not move away from and just kind of accept, like, oh, we can't do that?

[Paul Swanson]

Yeah, I'm right there with you. Like the proactivity around what does the radical way of Francis and Claire that they learn from Jesus? What does that look like for us now? And to not only examine our own participation in systems, but to examine systems themselves and be able to have a critique, a lens and analysis about how we show up, how we participate, and how we don't. And I think her analysis around poverty in the 21st century and what that would mean today spoke to me about this ongoing conversion and conversation with the radicality of the origins of not only, I would say, Christianity, but also of Franciscanism, that, like, there's got to be a continual renewal to keep that edge sharp about what does it mean to be a follower of Jesus in this way, in whether it's the Franciscan path or a different path, to not lose that vitality of life that comes through that downward mobility, living on the edge of the inside. And then the mirror conversation piece where she spoke about contemplating Jesus and the simplicity of that, how did that hit you in that way?

[Drew Jackson]

Yeah, I mean, that struck me right away when we asked her that, and that was her first response. What do you want to leave us with in terms of how to live this forward, contemplate Jesus? Like, there's such a simplicity in that. But there's so much. It's so profound in this invitation to consider what we are gazing at. And it really, you know, kind of takes me back into some discussions that I just remember having when I was in seminary and just learning about the idea of, you know, like, why in, like, ancient texts and the Hebrew scriptures was there's so much language around worship and idolatry, and that there was this idea that whatever you're looking at, whatever, or you're worshiping, you become like that thing. So what I hear, when I hear Sister Margaret say contemplate Jesus is. She's saying, consider what it is you're gazing on and gaze on that which is lovely and just is exemplifying that simplicity and mercy and forgiveness. Because as you gaze on that, you become what you're looking at, and you reflect that into the world. And so that's kind of what was landing for me, is that invitation to reconsider again and again. What is it I'm gazing on? What is it I'm looking at?

[Paul Swanson]

I think this is a beautiful way to end. And I know that, you know, with both of us having families and children, we think about, what are our children watching? How much screen time do they have? What are the influences in their life. And I love that. What you just shared about what are we gazing upon in our lives? Whether it's with media, but what does it mean to contemplate Jesus as that ultimate formation that is shaping how we not only see God, but see reality and our own participation in in community systems and relationships? So listeners, we invite you to consider what are you gazing upon and what would it mean for you to contemplate Jesus in this season?

[Corey Wayne]

Thanks for listening to this podcast by the center for Action and Contemplation, an educational nonprofit that introduces seekers to the contemplative Christian path of transformation. To learn more about our work, Visit [e-mail] Everything belongs is made possible thanks to the generosity of our supporters and the shared work of Mike Petro, Paul.

[Podcast Host Intro]

Swanson, Drew Jackson, Jenna Kuiper, Izzy Spitz.

[Sister Margaret Carney]

Megan Hare, Sarah Palmer, Dorothy Abrams, Brandon.

[Corey Wayne]

Strange, Vanessa Yee, and me, Corey Wayne. The music you hear is composed and provided by our friends Hammock and we'd also like to thank Sound on Studios for all of their work in post production. From the high desert of New Mexico, we wish you peace and every.

[Richard Rohr]

Sam.

[Podcast Host Intro]

Do you feel called to walk a more contemplative path? The center for Action and Contemplation is an educational nonprofit supporting the journey of inner transformation. Our programs and resources will help grow your consciousness, deepen your prayer practice, and strengthen your compassionate engagement with the world. Learn more about our resources such as publications, podcasts, email series and [e-mail].