← Everything Iconic with Danny Pellegrino
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- [00:00]
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- [02:23]
Dani Pellegrino
Hello, everyone, and welcome to everything iconic with me, Dani Pellegrino. I'm here with Dan Bukatinsky, one of the producers and stars of my all time favorite show. Listeners know that I talk about the Comeback all the time. Dan, how are you?
- [02:36]
Dan Bucatinsky
I'm good. I'm so good. Thanks for having me.
- [02:38]
Dani Pellegrino
I'm so honored and so excited to talk to you. Truly, more than any other piece of media in the history of media, like, the Comeback is, to me, the greatest piece of art that's ever been made.
- [02:48]
Dan Bucatinsky
Wow. Well, that's high praise.
- [02:50]
Dani Pellegrino
And I was nervous about season three because season two kind of wrapped up so perfectly.
- [02:57]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yes. As were we. I mean, you know, season two. We didn't end season two with this notion that there'd be a third season. Just like season one ended with where we thought we were gonna make a season two, a very different season two.
- [03:11]
Dani Pellegrino
What was the season two that was originally planned? Like, if you guys did get. Do you remember if you picked them?
- [03:17]
Dan Bucatinsky
I don't rem. It was. Gosh, that's a really good question. There was a lot of talk about where we would go from there. We end season with her leaving Leno, having thought that she was the laughingstock, having thought that the Comeback had really ruined Valerie. And in fact, it became a vi. You know, at the time, there wasn't a lot of social media, so there was no such thing as sort of a viral moment, but in fact, that. That Jay Leno was, for all intents and purposes, a viral moment for Valerie. And she steps outside and she's signing autographs. And so we were gonna pick up with how room and board is impacted. And then, of course, how much resentment from Paulie G. Would have happened as a result of that, how much more power Valerie and leverage Valerie would have as a result of that Jay Leno moment. So I think we were thinking along those lines of how to write the next season of that show as well as the return of the Comeback. But the Comeback didn't come back, and we didn't think about a second season until we had the opportunity to make one.
- [04:27]
Dani Pellegrino
So in between seasons over the years, I mean, we talked about sort of the Chicago moment, which is in the third season premiere. But you almost have had so many times working in this industry that you're like, oh, that would be perfect for Valerie. I need Valerie to do that. Are there any things that weren't sort of woven into the series that you're like, oh, maybe if Valerie ever comes back again, like, she should do that. Or.
- [04:52]
Dan Bucatinsky
I mean, there's always these moments. One of the things I loved about season two was that Lisa and Michael together had crafted a way of catching the audience up to what she has been doing. And you see this indie horror film that she was in and you see her on the set of a procedural medical show and you see her selling housewives and. Yeah. Trying to extricate herself from. Or explain why the housewives situation didn't work out for her. And then of course, that great. One of my favorite things we ever shot was her selling, her seeing, you know, her red.
- [05:32]
Dani Pellegrino
Her hair.
- [05:32]
Dan Bucatinsky
Caroline. Her hair. Caroline Cherish youh Hair with Mickey Dean. It just was such a fun infomercial to shoot. Those things are like great moments to shoot. And we will often think about, like, oh, wouldn't it be funny if she. The notion of Valerie on Broadway has come up many, many times over the years. And as Lisa and Michael put it, that it's a great moment to shoot, but it doesn't sustain a season. And it really, you know, you really need a big dramatic event that's happening in the entertainment business or in our world or in her marriage in order for that to sustain eight to ten episodes. Which is why season two was all about the making of this premium cable show that is about the life of Pauly G. Post heroin addiction. And season three, this moment when Lisa and Michael came together and one of them was like, what if she gets hired? What if she literally gets offered the first AI written sitcom? And it was like, oh, my God, that's gotta be it.
- [06:35]
Dani Pellegrino
And how quickly from that idea of AI and Valerie Cherish were you guys in production? Because.
- [06:42]
Dan Bucatinsky
Oh, I was at a Christmas party at the home of one of the other original writers from the Comeback from season one, a very dear friend of ours, Amy Harris. And we were at our Christmas party, I think, in 2024, where I was pulled aside very quietly by Michael and Lisa. And they were like, listen, don't say a word about this to anybody on the planet. But we sort of landed on an idea and I was like, oh, my God, how exciting. And they just whispered the notion, the one line pitch. But, you know, so there you go. We're talking in December 2024. We're on the air in March.
- [07:20]
Dani Pellegrino
And I mean, even. I mean I even since then, seems so much more present in the industry.
- [07:26]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yes. I mean, the truth is that there was no. You know, they both, Lisa and Michael were busy, so they didn't get into it quite right away, but there was A moment where Michael was able to sort of pitch this concept to HBO and Casey Bloys was like, yeah, if you're gonna do it, you have to do it right now. And it's true. There's no better moment than right this second for this story. Just given how fast AI is sort of becoming sort of relevant. And there's stories about it. We were literally at south by Southwest last week reading about an AI version of Andy Cohen that is gonna be, like, promoing or on the app or something on the app. So we're right there.
- [08:06]
Dani Pellegrino
Yeah, yeah. It felt to me like it. It seems so current, and I'm like, how did they get this show made? And it's on at this time? Because it just feels we're sort of at the height of it. But I suppose AI is just going to keep sort of being present in the industry.
- [08:21]
Dan Bucatinsky
It will be. And how we sort of push back against when it's taking over too much creativity or when it. You know, how we navigate with it. I was talking yesterday about there's some things that. About technology that are just realities that we will come to learn to live with. And, you know, think about the touchscreen. There was a time where you weren't getting your tickets to movies and going to the movie, to the airport, and pulling everything you needed from a touchscreen that just seemed like Jetsons. Right. Well, we're a decade past that now. And in a decade, AI will sort of be integrated into our lives of entertainment. Right.
- [09:01]
Dani Pellegrino
Your character, Billy, has had so many great moments throughout the series. I love that he sort of is one of the people embracing AI he's excited about this opportunity for Valerie to do this AI sitcom and for him to produce it. And so I like that he sort of represented that of like, oh, this is a great opportunity. And what I found so fascinating in the new season, without sort of spoiling any of it, I know this will air after the first episode airs, but I found that even within the first episode, there's a lot of people within the industry who are sort of where Valerie was in season one and two, where they're looking for work, they're trying to do anything. The casting director, Sharon, she's like, please, Valerie, consider me for work. And I thought that was such a brilliant sort of shift that now everyone in the industry has got a little Valerie in them more so than, I think, even in the earlier season.
- [09:53]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah. I do think that to some degree, one of the benefits of. Again, it's inadvertent. Cause this wasn't the original plan. But one of the gifts of being able to put a decade between each of the seasons is that the changes in our industry and the changes in the way people are able to find work, look for work, what people are dreaming of and wanting to do and how they go about doing that have changed. I mean, of course, the casting director doesn't know the secret, the big secret, the big AI secret. At the time you talked about Billy. I mean, really, the Billy this season, too. Billy this season is. He's not off the rails, but kind of what you said, though, was that he's so excited by this opportunity. Billy is excited by any opportunity. I don't think Billy has given two thoughts to the AI of it all. What it means, what it means politically, whether the unions would like it or not. He's like, guess what? You've been offered an opportunity that potentially could make me an executive producer. That's all he sees stars in his eyes. I let's go for it. No matter who it. No matter who falls as a result. And so it's kind of funny that you sort of watch somebody who is just, as you said, almost like the Valerie of season one. Billy starts to emerge. And Lisa said it in an interview recently that everybody has become Valerie Cherish. You know, season one, she had to have a reality crew that was produced that was willing to follow her around in her life. It's 20 years later. We all have our phones.
- [11:30]
Dani Pellegrino
Yeah, yeah. Well. And I remember that very first episode of the Comeback where we have people like Kim Fields and Mary Lou Henner. Kim went on to do the Real Housewives.
- [11:37]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yes.
- [11:38]
Dani Pellegrino
But it was like, even at that time, people like that who had been in television were looking down at reality tv. And now you can see, you know, some of the biggest stars are doing or trying to do reality tv, of course. And that's fascinating to me. What was it like? Billy also has. One of my favorite sort of runners is Billy's wardrobe throughout season three. It's like, so fucking funny.
- [11:58]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah. Billy is feeling his moment. I'm sort of winking to Billy today in my Tom Brown sweater, which is,
- [12:07]
Dani Pellegrino
oh, Tom Brown is so good.
- [12:10]
Dan Bucatinsky
You know what? I saw it in the script. It was totally Michael Patrick King's sort of notion that Billy winds up in head to toe Tom Brown, the kilt, skirt, the whole thing. And Tom Brown sort of made that famous four or five years ago. By the way, one of the things that made me laugh so hard is that Billy thinks he's cutting edge by wearing a Tom Brown outfit, which he thinks he looks real snatch in. And it's not from this season.
- [12:37]
Dani Pellegrino
Yeah. And every time we sort of see Billy there, it's sort of. He's. He's. There's an evolution to even just his wardrobe, which I thought was so brilliant.
- [12:45]
Dan Bucatinsky
I also wanted Billy's hair to represent sort of. We're getting higher and higher, everybody. We're getting bigger and bigger. This is a moment now that he wants to sort of grab and he's not going to let it go. He white knuckles it all the way through the season.
- [13:00]
Dani Pellegrino
Was it fun getting back in the shoes of Billy? Like, did you have a.
- [13:03]
Dan Bucatinsky
It was, it was. I mean, listen, I am. I love playing Billy from the, from the first season. The idea that this publicist who loves Valerie and wants this opportunity, but also has this hidden fervor, this impulse control problem, this anger management problem, clearly in season one, and to see that then develop into season two where he's so threatened by anybody else who steps on his toes and is willing to quit if it's not gonna go exactly his way. And he's pissed at all the people like Eva Longoria who fired him in the past. It's like, sure, just when everybody starts to move, they leave me behind. You start to see a little bit of that fervor and. And social climbing and desperation in Billy. And I kind of loved the idea that we're now going to see the, you know, 20 years later. He loves Valerie, he's devoted to her, but he's devoted to somebody even more important to him now. So it really was fun. Nothing is like sitting across from Lisa when she's.
- [14:07]
Dani Pellegrino
How do you do it? Like, even in season two, there's that beautiful scene where Billy has his freak out in the trailer. And Valerie, I believe in that scene is dressed in the green screen.
- [14:18]
Dan Bucatinsky
Head to toe, green screen scene.
- [14:20]
Dani Pellegrino
Like I. I mean, the first time and still every time I watch that, it's like tears rolling down my face because it's such a ridiculous look. It is like, how do you. I don't even know how you get through scenes like that.
- [14:32]
Dan Bucatinsky
Well, that scene was so.
- [14:33]
Dani Pellegrino
Laugh a lot.
- [14:34]
Dan Bucatinsky
We do laugh a lot. That scene was so brilliantly written. It's one of my favorite scenes I think I've done in any show. And one of the things I loved about it and what I think is so brilliant about when Michael and Lisa collaborate, the juxtaposition. Like in season one, the juxtaposition of Valerie doing her first video blog in the bathroom.
- [14:56]
Dani Pellegrino
Oh, My God.
- [14:57]
Dan Bucatinsky
With such self. Well, the bathtub scene and the candles. But I'm talking about her first one. I think it's in episode one where she's. Where literally her husband is defecating in the bathroom. And she's being really self important and thoughtful and philosophical and talking to camera and you just hear the sounds behind the juxtaposition. And then he comes out of the bathroom and he gives her a kiss on the cheek and says, you'll be great no matter what you do. There's intimacy, there's love there. He's farting in the background. She's being like the juxtaposition of Billy throwing the phone in her trailer while she looks like Kermit the Frog. It's so. It's sort of our show. It's always like that.
- [15:40]
Dani Pellegrino
And you guys have done such a great job of incorporating that sort of blue humor in such a brilliant way. Because, you know, even there was a scene with Brad Gretzky where he sort of like the toilet explodes in season two. Yeah.
- [15:53]
Dan Bucatinsky
And it's the finale.
- [15:55]
Dani Pellegrino
You know, there's like poop humor in it, which I think everybody finds funny, of course, but oftentimes I think people sort of steer away from it. Cause they're like, no, we're too high brow for that. But I love that the comeback just is like, no, we have the highbrow. We have the drama too. We have the. We're also gonna do some poop hum because people like it.
- [16:11]
Dan Bucatinsky
And there's themes that we. There are themes through the three seasons that whether they were deliberate or not, you know, in season one, there's a leak. There's a leak going through her wall that sort of damages her it wall and the water pressure in the house becomes important. And then in season two, she's going to the Emmys and there's a leak of sewage coming through the garage. And poor Brad is in a white tux jacket and lands face down on the result of that sewage leak. And it's all part of a very emotional episode. I mean, it's all interwoven. And in season three, there is a water, there's a leak, There's a different kind of leak, which I won't give away, but people will find.
- [16:55]
Dani Pellegrino
You know, I'm going back to season one. I watched it when it aired, and I've always loved Lisa, of course, from Friends, and I just was obsessed with her. Romy Michel, you know, a million things. But I remember watching it as it aired, and I would tell anyone who would Listen. And I was like, you have to watch the show. And then the DVD came out, and I'm like, please watch this. I was watching the special features on it and cheering with absolutely any. Anyone that would listen. I was like, you have to watch this show. And I noticed back then some people got it, and then other people found it a little too uncomfortable.
- [17:28]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yes.
- [17:28]
Dani Pellegrino
And I think I sort of noticed, and I'm sure you guys have noticed, too. It seemed like gay people sort of got it.
- [17:34]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yes, yes.
- [17:35]
Dani Pellegrino
In a way that a lot of other people didn't. And I would share with girlfriends, and sometimes they say, oh, a little too much for me.
- [17:40]
Dan Bucatinsky
Too hard.
- [17:41]
Dani Pellegrino
Now, I think if you go back and watch season one, I don't think it's too hard because we're a little more accustomed.
- [17:45]
Dan Bucatinsky
We are.
- [17:46]
Dani Pellegrino
But can you talk about, like, maybe why. Why do you think gay people were able to get it?
- [17:53]
Dan Bucatinsky
Well, there's a couple of things at play here. I think part of it has to do with the experience of feeling a little bit on the outside, the notion of growing up in your skin and feeling like that you're not necessarily being seen and you want to be seen not being heard authentically and wanting to be heard authentically. And Valerie, in a very transparent way, in a very visible way, almost too much so, in a very naked way, is really out there trying to be seen and heard in a very big way. And I think that those who have felt. I always say that. And Lisa Kudrow in general, as an actress, has a kind of satellite dish, an ability to play characters whose parts of them that might feel like there's the small cracks in the ego of characters. She's able to play with so much pathos without, you know, it's a natural gift. And I think the gay community understands Valerie Cherish in a very big way. The other thing I have to say has to do with misogyny. We live a society that you know, and we all know that that which is feminine and female, and there is an inability to look at a woman who is facing, whether it's an embarrassment or a setback or a humiliation at that time was really difficult. It wasn't hard to see Larry David doing it, but it's hard to see a woman doing it. And it was before there were Housewives, and it was before exploitation or the raw conflict and embarrassments of women in Beverly Hills and Orange county and Atlanta was just a commonplace entertainment. And once that became something that we felt comfortable with, suddenly it was okay to see Valerie Cherish in that light. So I think we were a little bit ahead of the curve in that way.
- [19:58]
Dani Pellegrino
Yeah. You know, I think of the drama of the show, too. And there's a moment in season one where she's talking about her scoliosis, I believe, in the mirror. And it's such beautiful. I would encourage anyone who's just. Even just a fan of acting or. I think it's one of the most brilliantly acted scenes of anything in television.
- [20:14]
Dan Bucatinsky
I couldn't agree with you more.
- [20:16]
Dani Pellegrino
And the way she's, you know, you mentioned how she's able to kind of tap into that and she's doing a lot without saying a lot. And it's. I think it's a masterclass. So much of the series is a masterclass. But that scene in particular, that's episode.
- [20:27]
Dan Bucatinsky
That's season one, episode nine. And it's the very iconic episode where the. She has to wear a cupcake suit and there's a double vomit. It's like a really iconic moment in the show, except right before it. She's just telling the story about being on the field hockey team, and it overcomes her, the memory of being on that team. It's heartbreaking. And she plays it perfectly. That's one of the gifts. I mean, listen, I love Lisa, but her ability to bounce back and forth from the sort of very bold, self aware looking at the camera and trying to control her narrative and the moments where Valerie is overcome by thoughts and feelings that we see that she didn't expect or can't control. And that dance happens all the time.
- [21:18]
Dani Pellegrino
I mean, I hope that this season I've gotten a chance to see this season. And I hope that. I know Emmys aren't like, you know, everything, but I do hope the Emmys come through for the comeback this year because there's just so much brilliance. And to not recognize the show is a disservice to everything.
- [21:36]
Dan Bucatinsky
I appreciate that. From your mouth to God's ears.
- [21:39]
Dani Pellegrino
Talk to me a little bit about Mickey. Obviously, we all love Mickey in the series, and I think you handle his loss so incredibly beautifully in season three. But it must have been sort of nerve wracking to not have that presence in the show in season three.
- [21:56]
Dan Bucatinsky
Well, it's a real loss, for sure. I mean, Robert Michael Morris was a real find. He had been an acting teacher of Michael Patrick King's. He wasn't even pursuing acting as a professional. But Michael, when he and Lisa were writing the character of Mickey, I think Michael had in his head, I know this guy. I Know who this is. And it wound up being that human being who wound up becoming Mickey and being such an advocate for Valerie, really needed that voice and that energy and that lovely positive spirit around her. And Michael got sick, and he was struggling, and.
- [22:37]
Dani Pellegrino
And this was happening during the filming
- [22:39]
Dan Bucatinsky
of season two of season two. Robert Michael Morris. Yeah. We approached him and said, look, we have this opportunity to make a season two. How do you feel about. Are you strong enough to do it? And he really wanted to do it. And I. And it really. It was a real gift to him to be able to make. And we sort of built. And we did. We built his illness or his weakness into season two. And Valerie's protection of him in season two was very evident and kind of touching.
- [23:06]
Dani Pellegrino
And really the emotional engine, I think, of season two last episode, which is one of the most brilliant finales of all time.
- [23:13]
Dan Bucatinsky
Correct. The finale of season two was so important. It's what I call Pinocchio becoming a boy. It's this moment where Valerie leaves the Emmys against everything that you could ever imagine someone like her would ever do. And she steps out into that lobby, and we finally see Valerie with no cameras. Obviously, we're watching her film, an objective camera, but it becomes, you know, nine minutes of a film of seeing Valerie without being able to address a camera or control her narrative as she goes to see her friend and sort of really embraces what's important in her life, which is her friend and her husband. And it's a beautiful ending. It's a perfect finale. I agree with you. And there was no thought necessarily of ever making another season after that, but you never know.
- [24:03]
Dani Pellegrino
But I feel like his presence is also so there in season three as well. And it's handled just so perfectly.
- [24:09]
Dan Bucatinsky
We really wanted that. We wanted to honor Robert Michael Morris, and we wanted to honor Mickey, and we wanted Valerie to honor Mickey. And it's such a beautiful episode. It's the third episode of the season, and I cried every time I read the script. And then there'd be another draft of the script, and I would be in tears, and then I would watch the cut while we were on set watching it happen. It was so moving. And I have to tell you, I've not told anybody this before, but while we were shooting episode three, and we shot out of order, so there were scenes from episode three that we shot throughout the whole time, but there was a member of our crew who is a doppelganger of Robert Michael Morris and I. It was like seeing a ghost. We're like Honoring him. In this episode, literally there was a scene of holding an urn or something. And I went to Lisa and I was like, will you come with me? Will you? That grip. And she was like, oh my God. It was unbelievable. We took pictures of her with. We were trying to figure out a way to work it into the narrative. And it just was too. It was almost too off putting. It was, he looks exactly like him. And I feel like we were visited by Robert Michael Morris in such a beautiful way even while we were shooting.
- [25:22]
Dani Pellegrino
Yeah, I love how you guys handled it. There were so many great people that were in season one that kind of circle back in season two and season three. Was there anyone maybe that you could share? I know I'm asking you so many behind the scenes questions, but anything you could share about, like, was anyone. Did you try to get anyone back for like a little cameo but you couldn't figure out a way to maybe work it into the narrative?
- [25:46]
Dan Bucatinsky
I wasn't. You know, Lisa and Michael wrote every episode of the show. So I don't know when the two of them spent three months sort of beating out the season. I know that they were figuring out in what ways might we need or not need Paulie G. Or in what ways might we run into or not run into Juna, played by Malin Akerman? I do know that they paid a lot of attention to. In what ways will the characters of the past serve our story or not serve our story? So that was thought of a lot. I. I don't have any specific. There weren't any specific characters that were discussed or people that they reached out to that weren't available. That has never happened. Anytime somebody gets the call, of course it's like drop everything.
- [26:37]
Dani Pellegrino
I remember in season two, I was. I did Groundlings here in Los Angeles and right when I had sort of. They can cut you from the program at a certain point. Like you. It's very cutthroat. And right when I had been sort of cut, the episode aired where Valerie takes a Groundlings class. And I saw so many friends who were in that. I remember it was just so devastating to me.
- [26:57]
Dan Bucatinsky
God, that was one of your Valerie Cherish moments.
- [27:00]
Dani Pellegrino
It was truly like the most. I mean, I can viscerally remember it. Cause it's my favorite show. And I remember being like so excited to watch it. And I was like, ah, they were at the Groundlings. And I was like, it was very triggering, very traumatic.
- [27:11]
Dan Bucatinsky
We take so many hits. This is a business. I say this all the time, no matter what level you're at, there is never an end to the ways in which you can be disappointed.
- [27:20]
Dani Pellegrino
And I have to tell you, you're involved in one of mine. Recently, I was hosting the Elton John red carpet event. And so, you know, those things are,
- [27:27]
Dan Bucatinsky
by the way, not invited this year. First time ever. Not invited.
- [27:31]
Dani Pellegrino
I thought you were there, because I'm hosting and I'm interviewing, and everything's sort of moving fast. You know, you're talking to someone, then there's someone in your ear saying, somebody else is coming. They're tapping or whatever. And I swear, I thought I saw you, like, walk past, and I knew you were coming over, and I was, like, so excited to meet you and say hello. And I'm like, in between, they're bringing me another guest, and in between, I'm like, dan. Dan. You know, like, shouting at someone from who's behind now?
- [27:55]
Dan Bucatinsky
And I kept shouting, I hope it was Ryan Gosling.
- [27:58]
Dani Pellegrino
Very handsome man.
- [27:59]
Dan Bucatinsky
Oh, thank you.
- [27:59]
Dani Pellegrino
Very handsome man. But I didn't. I only saw. I saw, like, the glasses, and I saw him walk, and then his wife or girlfriend or someone was like, his name's not Dan. And then he turned around, and it wasn't me. So embarrassed. Like, it wasn't, you know, it wasn't you. It was like, her husband or whatever.
- [28:14]
Dan Bucatinsky
I often go to that. This year, I didn't make the cut, but this is sort of. Well, I appreciate it. I would have loved to talk to you on that carpet. And we were at south by Southwest during the Oscars anyway. But the. But that's what I was saying. I'm saying, no matter what level you're at, if at the beginning or in the middle of your career or at any point, there's no end to the kind of disappointments that can come. And I love. I think Valerie Cherish is such an inspirational character because she always lands on her feet, and she always finds a way to spin the narrative in a way that benefits her. And it's what adapting is all about, you know?
- [28:54]
Dani Pellegrino
And you mentioned at any point in your career, too, I do think even sort of the biggest stars have these types of moments, too. Like, I don't know. I've sort of. You can see different when you are working a carpet or something like that. You can see these moments happening with the biggest names in the world.
- [29:08]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yes, look, Season one of the comeback. It was only two years after Friends was over. Lisa Kudrow, you know, has made this new series, and she's a. It was a big disappointment to make season One and get canceled. And the fact that we were a canceled show that has turned this into a big, Beautiful Trilogy after 22 years is a total gift. That doesn't usually happen when your show gets canceled. So we certainly are grateful for the opportunity. But that was a moment that was a real kick. It really. It hurt.
- [29:41]
Dani Pellegrino
I'm sure now you're all billing this as the final season, but there has to be some sort of. Do you feel like it's the end?
- [29:50]
Dan Bucatinsky
It's been 10 years. It feels like, you know, the way we ended the season, it was written as the first, final moment for this trilogy. So it is. This is the final season, I think.
- [30:02]
Dani Pellegrino
I hope there'll be more, though, right?
- [30:05]
Dan Bucatinsky
I don't believe there will be another season of the Comeback. Whether this is the end, whether this is the last time you ever see Valerie Cherish or not, no one can say.
- [30:14]
Dani Pellegrino
Talk to me about meeting Lisa. You guys have been producing partners, and you've also done so many brilliant things together. Web Therapy, I loved.
- [30:20]
Dan Bucatinsky
No, thank you. Thank you.
- [30:21]
Dani Pellegrino
More Web Therapy.
- [30:23]
Dan Bucatinsky
We didn't. We always want to. We always want to make more, and there's always people who want to. You know, we've had such an incredible cast over four seasons that we. That we.
- [30:32]
Dani Pellegrino
You guys had Meryl Streep.
- [30:33]
Dan Bucatinsky
We had Meryl Streep on. And Meg Ryan and Conan o' Brien and Steve Carell and Julia Louis Dreyfus. Like, the list is endless. And it was so fun to make. It was improvised. Show that.
- [30:43]
Dani Pellegrino
Also very ahead of its time.
- [30:45]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah. I mean, the notion of doing therapy in Bites online was before COVID It was. It was 10 years before COVID so we were inadvertently ahead of our time. But that was a very satisfying show to make because I did it with my husband, Don Roos. And Lisa, Brilliant husband. Thank you. And the three of us would cook that up together and would improvise and write outlines for these shows. And we were sort of a studio in and of ourselves. We didn't have to take notes from anybody. So it was a very satisfying project. But Lisa and I met on the set of my husband Don's movie the Opposite of Sex, which is a really great movie. And as it turns out, 10 years earlier, we were at college at the same time. We just weren't friends. But from the point that we met on Don's movie, we got along. And Don and Lisa and myself and Lisa's husband Michelle would socialize together. And I made this movie called all over the Guy, a little gay romantic comedy that Lisa had a cameo in and by 2003 we partnered up in a company at Warner Brothers and produced television together for over 15 years, including who do youo Think youk are? Which were 10 seasons of that show. We're really proud of and we still produce this game show, 25 words or less, which is in season eight. So Lisa and I have remained really close friends and we produced television together for 15 years and we no longer have our company, but she remains one of the most important people in my life.
- [32:15]
Dani Pellegrino
I love it. I love the work you two do together. I feel like everything sort of has
- [32:21]
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Dani Pellegrino
Nah, I'm just kidding.
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- [35:02]
Dani Pellegrino
the humor and then also the gravitas. I mean you mentioned who do youo Think youk Are? And that show is also so beautifully done.
- [35:08]
Dan Bucatinsky
Well, it was created by Alex Graham in the uk. It was a huge hit for the BBC and Lisa was really passionate about bringing it to American audiences. And you know, she and I and the team at Shed meet, you know, at Shed and Alex Graham really tried to stick to the the bones of who do you think you are? And that's a show we would never stop making if we could. So we still pursue that.
- [35:34]
Dani Pellegrino
I saw a clip of you on Jesse Tyler Ferguson's podcast and talking about you auditioned for I think Mitch and Cam, A Modern Family and then also Will and Grace.
- [35:43]
Dan Bucatinsky
I auditioned for yes, yes. And I auditioned to play Chandler too on Friends.
- [35:46]
Dani Pellegrino
Oh wow.
- [35:46]
Dan Bucatinsky
I mean I have a whole string of parts.
- [35:49]
Dani Pellegrino
I did not know you appeared on those shows.
- [35:51]
Dan Bucatinsky
I appeared on Friends. I appeared on Will and Grace. I didn't. I never appeared on Modern Family, but I would have liked to.
- [35:57]
Dani Pellegrino
You know, I'm curious, as a gay actor, what have you seen sort of the changes? Cause I think back at that time and although sort of in the mid to late 90s, it seemed like there was more representation happening on screen, it often sort of felt like it was still if you were an out gay actor, maybe not as well received as, you know, they were hiring straight actors. I'm curious, what do you think about sort of the.
- [36:21]
Dan Bucatinsky
Well, you know, I came to LA in 92 and I was closeted, you know, not in my personal life but certainly professionally and for a very long time. I mean, I think it took me 10 years. I mean I thought I was closeted. I think anybody who was, you know, gifted with sight, sight and hearing, you know, knew knew differently. But, but it really stood and I worked and I and I became a writer and I started to finally write. I wrote all over the Guy as a gay romantic comedy. But even while I was writing all over the Guy, I was sort of closeted about how I wanted the world to perceive Dan but Katinski differently from the character. I was so delusional about whether I thought people would perceive me one way or the other because I was worried that if people knew I would not work. And at that time it was what I call igh insert gay here. That people would write scripts where the gay is the. The character would lead with the gayness. That rather than a story where the person, what I would call the just happens to be story, a story about a character that is fully fleshed out and just happens to be gay was very rare. And so that rom com that I made all over the Guy was really about two people who just happened to be gay and their best friends were a straight couple who fixed them up. It was very rare back then that a character who is gay and and out was not leading with that as the only real defining characteristic. So your wardrobe would be a lavender sweater wrapped around you. You know, I did that. I auditioned for those parts for an entire decade. If you're gay, that's the only thing interesting about you. And you walk in and you say something quippy and you snap your fingers
- [38:04]
Dani Pellegrino
and you leave the assistant. I notice even now, you know, when I get an audition come through, it's always the gay assistant or a realtor. Well, like those are the two.
- [38:14]
Dan Bucatinsky
We're still, you know, and this is a thing about sort of being pigeonholed in whatever area. And now of course there's a lot more emphasis put on casting the authenticity of a real gay out actor to play a gay character. I'm not as focused on that any, you know, I think if you're an actor you should be able to play all different kinds of people but write well rounded humans that either just happen to be gay or just happen to be Latino, but they can be your lawyer or they can be your husband or they can be the killer as opposed to just typecasting. So I've seen a real change. The biggest thing though for me was that I didn't really start working in a way that was part of what I had dreamt of for 20 years after. You know, it took me 20 years of living in LA before I was able to really come out. Talk about my personal life in a very public way. I wrote my book does this Baby make me Look Straight? As a way of really embracing this is the truth of who I am. This is my husband. I now am a parent of two kids and believe it or not, that's what led me to meet Shonda Rhimes. That's what led, I think, her to connect with me. We both adopted our kids and I think it played some role in the kind of part I got to play on Scandal, which changed my life.
- [39:32]
Dani Pellegrino
And I told you off camera, your book was so important to me because at the time 2012, I think the book came out and even still to this day, there isn't a whole lot of representation for gay, gay parents, gay families. And so I remember reading your book, reading Dan Savage as the kid, seeing interviews with people like Neil Patrick Harris. We're talking about family and it was so influential to me. So first of all, I just want to say thank you because it really meant the world. And now I have a 9 month old son and I don't think I would have been able to see that future or that or my current without people like you being so open about it, showing that there was a path. So I really just wanna thank you and your book is so good. It's so funny and warm and a million different things. But I'm curious, were you nervous at all? Even me, now I've been pretty open about our journey with starting a family publicly, but there is sort of like a little. You wanna protect it.
- [40:29]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah.
- [40:30]
Dani Pellegrino
But then also there is that sort of other side of like, well, I also wanna be able to show other gay kids or gay people that like there's a possible path to a family.
- [40:39]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah.
- [40:40]
Dani Pellegrino
Were you nervous?
- [40:41]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yes, I was nervous. It was very scary writing that book. There were chapters that I was, that were very, very revealing that I was worried about. And I knew that every time I was really, really scared to write a chapter, that was probably the indication that I needed to do it. My husband wasn't thrilled about me doing it. And I got some criticism from fellow gay parents who were like, you know, this is your kid's story to tell, this isn't your story to tell. And I really grappled with that. I very deliberately was writing about a period of time when My son was 2 and my daughter was maybe 5, as no older than 5, where really the story I was telling was mine. It was how I became a dad, why I became a dad, how bad I was at it, how much I was struggling through moments of parenthood that are universal, that really were from my point of view. It really wasn't about exploiting the story of being them. Certainly if I were to do it again now, and my kids are now 21 and 18, you know, again, I think I could tell the story of being a parent without exploiting their personal lives.
- [41:52]
Dani Pellegrino
I would almost love to see a follow up about sort of now that you said 18 and 21.
- [41:58]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yes.
- [41:58]
Dani Pellegrino
Like, that's actually kind of.
- [42:00]
Dan Bucatinsky
There's a lot to say about it. And I've had. It's been quite a journey. And every day is another little, you know, a few more steps on that journey. You never know where it's gonna turn. It's so much trickier now because they're adults. And I would never want to expose the trials, tribulations, and victories of my children on paper without their, you know, without their consent. But I certainly can talk about. With other parents and talk generally about the raising of, you know, of kids once they become adults and how important it is to embrace how powerless we actually are over who they become. We think it's such. It is such an illusion. We think that we control their path. We think that we control their destiny. We think that if we remove sugar from our cabinets that they will never have sugar, and that if we put them in soccer and piano and all these classes, that they will. These are things that are illusions that make us feel powerful, but none of them actually are true.
- [43:07]
Dani Pellegrino
Well, this might have answered my question, but is there any advice to any gay dads out there? Myself that you would give sort of at the beginning of the journey?
- [43:14]
Dan Bucatinsky
I would. I would emphasize the importance of looking. Letting them see you see them with delight and love in your eyes, and let them see you and your partner look at each other in that same way. There's nothing better than modeling kindness and love in your eyes. I wish I had done it more. I mean, I. Going back, I put so much emphasis on what they put in their bodies and what. How much sunscreen I put on them and what classes I put them in and what experiences I would give them and what school I could get them in and all these things that I felt were going to. To control the path that I wanted for them. And they are human beings from JUMP that have their own path and their own guiding GPS that will lead them where they're going to go. And so much of it is nature and so little of it is nurture. But I will say that I have experienced this kind of letting go of this notion that what we say and what we think about who they will become is in fact, the path that they need to take and seeing them as fully as full human beings, even when they're small and they're infants and they're babies, that watching them sort of have the reactions and feelings that are natural to them is a very hard thing to do. And it's the only advice I would give. Looking backwards, it's interesting.
- [44:39]
Dani Pellegrino
I'm already, he's nine months old, my son, and I'm, I'm starting to notice his personality coming through and it's like so fascinating even at that age to
- [44:48]
Dan Bucatinsky
see him being him, it's great. And to embrace seeing him become him and gravitate towards a thing or a color or a desire to want something or to want to put a certain food in his mouth or to not want to put other foods in his mouth. Like these are the natural impulses. And I wish I had gotten the advice that I know now that I'm certainly trying to live on a day to day basis when they were much younger.
- [45:15]
Dani Pellegrino
I'm working on my next book and it's all about parenting and I'm kind of going through a similar thing like of what you were talking about, of trying to find the line of what to share and how much to share and I don't know. It's interesting.
- [45:26]
Dan Bucatinsky
Well, the number one thing is we think we know what's best for our kids. We think we know. We don't know. We think we know.
- [45:34]
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- [45:36]
Dani Pellegrino
pressure, especially as someone who's talked about parenthood or written a book about it?
- [45:42]
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- [46:27]
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- [47:00]
Dani Pellegrino
There is. Do you feel an extra pressure to be a perfect gay dad because there isn't a lot of people?
- [47:05]
Dan Bucatinsky
Oh yeah. Oh yeah. And I think that to some degree one of the reasons I wrote the book was to sort of show the stumble and the insecurity. It's a fairly self deprecating book only because I wanted other parents to connect with like there's no perfect way. But yes, you want to be a good role model as a gay dad or as any parent really. And it's hard. I will say that also at the time that Don and I adopted, we were the outliers. Like every gay couple I knew were using surrogacy, which I think is great. However way you find a way to become a family is great. But we were looked down upon by groups of other gay dads because we didn't. Because the kids weren't necessarily biologically ours. So there was a stigma to that. And so I became a big advocate for, for adoption and talked a lot with other parents just about that process. And you know, there's different paths.
- [47:59]
Dani Pellegrino
What about any gay people out there who, I don't know, is there something you would say to them if they're sort of interested in starting a family? Maybe it's words of encouragement or.
- [48:09]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah, I mean, listen, I think that waiting is not necessarily the best thing if you know that you want to be a parent. I think whatever path towards creating a family, you should start when you feel the impulse because we get a while. Yeah, it takes a while. And we're only getting older. And I became a dad at 40. In hindsight, it might have all felt different on my knees and my back and my spirit if I had been a few years younger. Sure.
- [48:41]
Dani Pellegrino
Okay, switching gears a bit, I just have a few more questions. Do you have any favorite gay films or what are sort of your gay touchstones?
- [48:49]
Dan Bucatinsky
Wow. Well, my Beautiful Lingerie was one. I'm going real, real far back, you know, because that was, you know, object of my affection was another one that I really loved. And oh God, what was the AIDS movie with Dermot Mulroney and that took place in Fire. Oh God, I can't remember. There were Certain movies that I'm terrible with remembering titles. There's another one called Beautiful, which is a British film, which I thought was just so touching that I got a lot of inspiration from. Again, the stories that are told where the characters happen to be gay as opposed to being coming out stories or AIDS stories. Not that we didn't need those narratives as well. We did and we do, but. But I always gravitated towards those.
- [49:43]
Dani Pellegrino
Could we get you writing another gay movie?
- [49:46]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah, I mean, I think that it's. There's one in me a little later in life, maybe. Love Story, I think would be really fun. For a while there, I was really focused on writing the sequel to all over the Guy, where the characters meet up again where they had not been together, but they meet up again 10 years later or 20 years later.
- [50:06]
Dani Pellegrino
Yeah. Can we get that?
- [50:07]
Dan Bucatinsky
Well, I haven't written it, but. But. But this is the 20. This year is the 25th anniversary of all over the Guy, so hopefully we'll get to have some kind of celebratory screening of it, and hopefully that will inspire me to either write some version of a sequel to that movie or if not a one like it.
- [50:26]
Dani Pellegrino
You must have heard from so many gay men about that movie over the years and what it's meant to them.
- [50:31]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah. There is something really satisfying about having somebody come up to me and be like, I was only singing. But that movie really made me feel like romance was possible. And there's nothing more satisfying to me than. Than when that movie has touched somebody.
- [50:46]
Dani Pellegrino
Was that 2000?
- [50:48]
Dan Bucatinsky
It came out in 2001.
- [50:49]
Dani Pellegrino
Okay. So I. Yes. I was trying to think of. When did I see it? I remember renting it from the local video store and being a closeted teen at the time. And. Yeah, it was movies like that. Or I remember something. Trick.
- [51:01]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah, Trick was another one. Same.
- [51:02]
Dani Pellegrino
In the same year, I think these movies that.
- [51:04]
Dan Bucatinsky
Billy's Hollywood Screen Kiss, which was Sean Hayes's, which I auditioned for as well, by the way.
- [51:10]
Dani Pellegrino
Oh, my gosh. Broken Hearts Club.
- [51:12]
Dan Bucatinsky
Broken Hearts Club. Right around the same time.
- [51:14]
Dani Pellegrino
And that was.
- [51:15]
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- [51:16]
Dan Bucatinsky
It was Greg Berlanti.
- [51:17]
Dani Pellegrino
Met him last night at the premiere.
- [51:18]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah, yeah.
- [51:19]
Dani Pellegrino
And those movies were so. I mean, they showed me that this was the path, I mean, aside from your parenting. But like, it was like those movies being able to kind of sneak those rentals because I wasn't out at the time.
- [51:30]
Dan Bucatinsky
Those movies were considered these gay films that would get theatrical release at companies like Lionsgate and Paramount Classics and Sony Classics would Release a certain number of these gay, lesbian, and gay rom coms and dramas every year. And they would be in all the festivals and they would be in movie theaters. And my husband wrote the Opposite of Sex, which was a very innovative gay film in 90 97. I think it out came out in 1998. Lisa Kudrow and Christina Ricci, just brilliant in that movie. But it was a time when those kinds of movies were the indie films and festival favorites. And it's harder now because those movies, well, they wind up on our streamers and all over. The guy now is, I think, out there on one of the streaming platforms. So I'm glad that we made them now. It would be great to tell stories where characters, like even the new version of Four Seasons, you know, where.
- [52:32]
Dani Pellegrino
With Steve Carell. The Tina Fey.
- [52:34]
Dan Bucatinsky
The Tina Fey, yeah. Which is sort of a remake of that movie, that Alan Alda film from the past. But there's a gay couple in the group, and they just happen to be a gay couple who are dealing with the same marital issues that every fam. You know, it's great when these stories can still be told. And. And Modern Family was really very new in showing a gay couple having a baby and just being a married gay couple with a. Where you could either see similarities in your own life, which I think those things really bring people together.
- [53:06]
Dani Pellegrino
I'm curious what the impact of something like heated rivalry will be. Because although it's a little more titillating. Or is that the right word?
- [53:14]
Dan Bucatinsky
Titillating?
- [53:14]
Dani Pellegrino
Titillating, yeah. But I'm curious what. It seems like it's kind of got this real cultural moment, and I'm curious if it's just gonna make audiences more accepting of even just gay sex on screen.
- [53:26]
Dan Bucatinsky
I think inadvertently it will. I think that the Sex in the House show is certainly titillating and certainly fun to watch, but I think what's actually really made women. I mean, and the key to a hit. Everyone knows this in our business, the key to any hit are women. What's made women fall in love with heated rivalry and make it the phenomenon that it is. Which happens, what, once a decade. Right. Is the love affair is the absolute heated love. The way those two men look at each other, the way that. The power that. That love has is something that I think is what women are responding to, because any show or any TV show or any porn can just show sex. But to actually depict two people falling in love and the heat and the passion of that is very hard to get. Right. And I think you Know whether they're getting the hockey right, I would have no way of knowing. But the idea of it being sort of a hidden is really, really compelling.
- [54:30]
Dani Pellegrino
Yeah. You know, I love asking other actors this when they come on the show. Is there a role. Of course, we didn't even really get to talk about your iconic role on Scandal, but is there a role that you would say to people out there, go back and watch. That maybe was a little missed of mine?
- [54:45]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah.
- [54:46]
Dani Pellegrino
Like, is there something that you'd say, oh, I loved that performance I gave there. But maybe it wasn't like, you know, a huge Scandal moment.
- [54:54]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah. I mean, Scandal changed my life because I got to play scenes that felt like every. Every script that James had a scene with his husband Cyrus felt like a one act play. And so I was very lucky to get to do those things. I have to say, like the Billy, you know, Billy season two and the scene that we were talking about was something I was really proud of. Cause it was unexpected. I like playing characters that are unexpected. I loved the character I played in 24 Legacy. We thought 24 was gonna come back for season. Many, many seasons. That was another one that just did one season. It was a reboot of 24 that I did in 2017. And I played a character who just happened to be gay, but was sort of the very important figure at CTU who had such a big job and such an important job and loved the roles I've gotten to play where while it may, I may or may not have been a gay character, that wasn't what led who the person was. So I've always, I'm always seeking those kinds of things out. I would love to play a detective or of chief of medicine on, On, On. On staff at a hospital.
- [56:14]
Dani Pellegrino
Talk about a role or something.
- [56:16]
Dan Bucatinsky
Yeah, I mean, I would have loved to even play in. In. In Brilliant Minds, you know, where. Where Zach Quinto is playing a gay lead doctor. And that kind of thing I think would be. Is hopefully in my future.
- [56:29]
Dani Pellegrino
Who were the people when you were coming up that you were always auditioning with?
- [56:34]
Dan Bucatinsky
Well, I clearly was chasing Sean Hayes the entire time from Billy's Hollywood screen kiss. Right. To Will and Grace. He's a dear friend of mine and also so talented. So talented. And that.
- [56:46]
Dani Pellegrino
That show is so important to me
- [56:48]
Dan Bucatinsky
and so many others. Yeah. I mean, there, over the years, depending on the part, there was always those of us who would run into each other at auditions. Other gay actors, you know, Tim Bagley and Sam Pancake and all the guys who are in my age group that are gay and in comedy, we would all be chasing each other either wind up. And Tim Bagley is so brilliant on the. On the Comeback. We had him in season two and then he comes back in a really fun way in season three.
- [57:19]
Dani Pellegrino
I know. I loved. He was such a small sort of role, but I love the way he comes back in season two.
- [57:23]
Dan Bucatinsky
He does. And he has a real well rounded character. I mean, Michael and Lisa, really good about creating very well rounded characters, even if you only see them for one or two episodes.
- [57:36]
Dani Pellegrino
Last two questions I ask all of my guests. If you were choosing for People magazine Sexiest Man Alive, who would you choose? And also your favorite, Mariah Carey's song.
- [57:44]
Dan Bucatinsky
Oh, no, you're kidding me.
- [57:46]
Dani Pellegrino
I know. Sorry,
- [57:49]
Dan Bucatinsky
I'm so. I'm gonna be so cliche. Sexiest man Alive. I mean, I'm a real Ryan Gosling fan.
- [57:58]
Dani Pellegrino
Oh, interesting. I get that.
- [57:59]
Dan Bucatinsky
And I, I just, I'm. I find him incredibly compelling. What he wears, how effortless he seems, it, everything he does.
- [58:08]
Dani Pellegrino
Who was your sort of gay awakening cross?
- [58:11]
Dan Bucatinsky
Oh, Larry Hagman. Major Nelson in I Dream of Jeannie.
- [58:14]
Dani Pellegrino
Love it.
- [58:15]
Dan Bucatinsky
That was a classic example of being completely confused sexually. Where I wanted to be, I wanted to be Genie because I could have him as my master. I wanted to dress as Jeannie. I wanted to braid her hair in her fun little bottle. But I also wanted to sleep with Larry.
- [58:31]
Dani Pellegrino
Sure.
- [58:31]
Dan Bucatinsky
Not Larry. Major Nelson.
- [58:33]
Dani Pellegrino
Okay. Mariah Carey song.
- [58:35]
Dan Bucatinsky
I mean, it's the Christmas. Her Christmas song, All I Want for Christmas. It's a classic and I mean, she's so talented, but that one is just. You can't ever hear it enough.
- [58:46]
Dani Pellegrino
Right? Dan, it's such a pleasure and an honor to talk to you. I'm such a huge fan of your work.
- [58:50]
Dan Bucatinsky
Thank you.
- [58:50]
Dani Pellegrino
The Comeback Season 3 is brilliant. And I was probably more nervous than anyone to see it because I love it so much and I thought there's no way that we can top season one and two. And you guys did it.
- [59:02]
Dan Bucatinsky
I'm so glad I've gotten a chance
- [59:03]
Dani Pellegrino
to see all of the episodes and I just want to encourage everyone.
- [59:05]
T-Mobile Advertiser
It.
- [59:06]
Dani Pellegrino
I feel like the first episode is so funny and seeing it with a crowd was just crying, laughing at the premiere. But I think the show just keeps getting better throughout the run of season three and the finale. It's all so perfect. I can't truly. Perfect.
- [59:21]
Dan Bucatinsky
We're so relieved. Thank you for saying that. Because you were nervous. We were really nervous that we would deliver.
- [59:27]
Dani Pellegrino
I don't even know how you guys did it. It's like, what the fuck? I don't know how you guys were able to make it so good. It kind of blows my mind.
- [59:33]
Dan Bucatinsky
Lisa Cudjo, Michael Patrick.
- [59:35]
Dani Pellegrino
I feel like I trust with Lysa. I just trust her instincts for everything. I was seeing her talk about Romy Michelle sequel, and I'm like, I'm not worried about it. If she's gonna do it, I feel like it must be good.
- [59:50]
Dan Bucatinsky
I agree.
- [59:50]
Dani Pellegrino
She just has great. I mean, too. But just, it's phenomenal to watch such a hilarious. And I think we need to laugh. So anyway, thank you so much.
- [59:58]
Dan Bucatinsky
Thank you. Thank you for having me. This is so fun.
- [60:03]
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