"This is a blitz!" — with Karen Walrond

Summary

Podcast Title: Everything is Fine
Episode: "This is a blitz!" — with Karen Walrond
Hosts: Jennifer Romolini and Kim France
Release Date: February 10, 2025

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Overview

In the poignant episode titled "This is a blitz!" of Everything is Fine, hosts Jennifer Romolini and Kim France engage in a deep and meaningful conversation with Karen Walrond, a multifaceted writer, photographer, lawyer, leadership coach, and long-time activist. The episode delves into the complexities of maintaining joy and resilience while navigating the turbulent socio-political landscape, especially for women over 40. Karen shares her insights on balancing activism with self-care, the distinction between happiness and joy, and the importance of aligning one's actions with core values to prevent burnout.

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Introduction to Karen Walrond and the Episode’s Theme

The episode opens with the hosts expressing their admiration for Karen's ability to remain positive without succumbing to toxic positivity. They highlight her book, The Light Maker: How to Work for Change Without Losing Your Joy, commended by Glennon Doyle as "essential reading."

Notable Quote:
Karen Walrond emphasizes, “Joy is not an act of complacency; it’s an intentional stance in the face of chaos” (12:44).

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Distinguishing Happiness from Joy

Karen begins by elucidating the fundamental differences between happiness and joy. She describes happiness as fleeting and often dependent on external circumstances—such as receiving a compliment or enjoying a perfect latte. In contrast, joy is portrayed as a deeper, more sustained sense of fulfillment derived from meaningful work and purposeful actions.

Notable Quote:
“When I think of joy, it feels more substantial and enduring than happiness, which can be momentary and surface-level” (13:40).

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Harnessing Anger for Purposeful Action

The conversation shifts to the role of anger in activism. Karen argues that anger can be a powerful catalyst for change when channeled constructively. However, she cautions against allowing anger to become the sole driving force, as it can lead to dehumanization and counterproductive behavior if not tempered with self-awareness and compassion.

Notable Quote:
“Anger is a wonderful spark to action, but if left unchecked, it can turn us into what we despise” (16:56).

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Broadening the Definition of Activism

Karen challenges the traditional stereotype of activism as solely protest marches or street demonstrations. She advocates for a broader understanding that includes any purposeful action aimed at making the world a better place. This could range from organizing community events to leveraging one's unique skills for advocacy.

Notable Quote:
“Activism is any purposeful action you take to make the world brighter for others, not just the loud protests you see on the streets” (23:06).

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Aligning Activism with Personal Strengths

A significant portion of the discussion focuses on integrating one's inherent talents and passions into their activism. Karen advises listeners to identify what they love to do and find ways to incorporate those activities into their advocacy efforts. This alignment ensures sustainability and joy in their activism journey.

Notable Quote:
“If you throw great cocktail parties, imagine hosting events that also serve a cause you care deeply about” (24:28).

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The Essential Role of Self-Care

Karen passionately speaks about self-care as not merely an indulgence but a cornerstone of effective activism. She highlights the importance of regular self-compassion practices to maintain mental and emotional health, thereby preventing burnout and ensuring long-term commitment to one's causes.

Notable Quote:
“Self-care is a cornerstone of activism; it's one of the legs of the stool that keeps the work balanced and sustainable” (34:34).

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Building and Sustaining Community

The hosts and Karen explore the significance of community in fostering resilience and sustaining activism. Karen shares personal anecdotes about creating supportive environments, such as organized happy hours where activists can bond and strategize together, thereby reinforcing their shared commitment and preventing feelings of isolation.

Notable Quote:
“Creating community spaces where activists can connect and support each other is where the true magic of change happens” (44:02).

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Navigating Digital and In-Person Activism

The conversation also touches upon the nuances of digital versus in-person activism. While acknowledging the role of social media in spreading awareness, Karen stresses the importance of genuine, offline actions to complement online efforts. She cautions against performative activism and advocates for authenticity and depth in one’s advocacy.

Notable Quote:
“Online activism can be a powerful tool, but it must be backed by meaningful offline actions to truly make a difference” (50:32).

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Personal Stories and Reflections

Karen shares heartfelt personal experiences that underscore her points, including witnessing her father's confrontation post-election and the emotional impact of community gatherings. These stories highlight the real-world implications of activism and the emotional toll it can take, reinforcing the need for self-care and community support.

Notable Quote:
“Seeing my father confronted for simply enjoying life has heightened my focus on ensuring the safety and well-being of my loved ones” (56:01).

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Conclusion and Final Thoughts

As the episode wraps up, Karen reiterates the importance of aligning activism with personal strengths and maintaining a cycle of self-care and purposeful action. She encourages listeners to find their unique paths in activism that resonate with their values and passions, ensuring that their efforts are both impactful and sustainable.

Notable Quote:
“Choose to activate in a way that feels most authentic and aligned with your integrity, and don’t apologize for how you choose to make the world brighter” (58:43).

Karen concludes by sharing her mission to be a "porch light," a symbol of safety and home for others, embodying the essence of joy and resilience in her activism.

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Key Takeaways

1. Understand the Difference Between Happiness and Joy: Focus on deeper fulfillment derived from meaningful actions rather than transient pleasures.
2. Channel Anger Constructively: Use anger as a motivating force while avoiding its potential to dehumanize others.
3. Broaden Your Definition of Activism: Recognize that activism encompasses a wide range of purposeful actions beyond traditional protests.
4. Align Activism with Personal Strengths: Integrate your unique talents and passions into your advocacy efforts to sustain joy and prevent burnout.
5. Prioritize Self-Care: Regular self-compassion and self-care are essential to maintain the energy and resilience required for effective activism.
6. Build and Sustain Community: Foster supportive environments that provide emotional and strategic support for activists.
7. Balance Digital and In-Person Efforts: Complement online activism with genuine offline actions to ensure authenticity and depth in advocacy.

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About Karen Walrond

Karen Walrond is a renowned writer, photographer, lawyer, leadership coach, and activist. She is the author of several influential books, including The Beauty of Different, Radiant Reclaim Aging Practice, Joy, Raise a Little Hell, and the upcoming In Defense of Dabbling: The Brilliance of Being a Total Amateur. Her work focuses on empowering individuals to find joy and purpose in advocacy while maintaining personal well-being.

Connect with Karen:

• Website: karenwalren.com
• Social Media: Active across various platforms
• Books Available At: Major book retailers and online stores

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Final Thoughts

"This is a blitz!" serves as an empowering episode that encourages women over 40 to engage in activism without sacrificing their joy and well-being. By sharing her personal experiences and practical strategies, Karen Walrond provides listeners with the tools to navigate challenging times with resilience, purpose, and happiness.

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Note: This summary intentionally omits advertisements, introductory segments, and concluding remarks not related to the core content of the discussion to focus solely on the meaningful exchange between the hosts and their guest.

Transcript

[Jen Romolini]

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[Kim France]

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[Karen Walren]

That sounds like a threat.

[Kim France]

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[Jen Romolini]

Okay.

[Kim France]

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[Jen Romolini]

Forever.

[Kim France]

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[Karen Walren]

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[Podcast Intro]

Hi and welcome to Everything Is Fine, a podcast for women over 40. We are your hosts. I'm Kim France.

[Jen Romolini]

And I'm Jen Romellini. Just sipping on some bone broth in my bone broth cup that they sent me. It's like you're such a sucker that you got a bone broth subscription. We'll give you a fucking mug.

[Podcast Intro]

Wow. I'm kind of jealous of the mug, though. It's cute.

[Jen Romolini]

It's a perfect size mug for bone broth. Hi. So you're actually on vacation this week? This is a cheat of the system.

[Podcast Intro]

It's a cheat of the system. I'm popping in and then popping back out.

[Jen Romolini]

Popping in and popping back out. I will be. We don't even know yet what the interview's gonna be like, but we are gonna have our friend of the podcast Karen Walren on to talk about how we can stay joyful while also being resistant in these difficult times. Cause she literally wrote the book on that. And also she's weirdly the most positive person I've ever met without having like, toxic positivity.

[Podcast Intro]

No, it's not. Because she has a little. I wouldn't say edge, but sort of, you know, it's like she kind of has the edge that is not present in people who are very toxically positive.

[Jen Romolini]

Exactly, exactly. But the thing, while I have you here that I want to talk to you about that is not fucking positive in any way is I have seen some photographs of myself. Let me just preface this by saying I have pretty good self esteem. I'm like, I think I look great for 51. I'm like, you know, my face looks good, my skin looks good, I feel good. I gained a bunch of weight. I have a big right now, but I've still been feeling mostly good. Okay. I saw some candid photographs of myself. We have these friends, they have Thanksgiving dinner every year. And then after the. It's like a big Thanksgiving party. And then afterwards, somebody compiles a bunch of photographs of the party and turns them into a book. So the book is now like, it's a document, like forever. Okay.

[Podcast Intro]

Yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

And my friend Christy was like, girl, I have to show you. We have. So there's just like so many. Dude, just be a Jen Romolini in these pictures. And these pictures of me being Jen Romolini are a horrifying monster.

[Podcast Intro]

Oh, no.

[Jen Romolini]

Amorphous, like chin. Like basically like the chin just connecting to like the collarbone. Just like a. Just like a blob in between. Like fucked up looking teeth, like wrinkles. Like I look like a fucking. If this is. If this is what I look like, if this is so Jen Romolini, like I. I want a new. I want a whole makeover. The whole thing.

[Podcast Intro]

I totally understand because I've had people say the same thing to me about photos. One photo, my friend Michelle, I was the witness at her wedding and there was one photo that she kept saying, you just look so dear in it. I don't want to look dear.

[Jen Romolini]

I don't want to look dear. I want to look fucking hot. I want to look hot. Well, anyway, this was. And also just like, why did I think you could put a turtleneck under. Like, this is a trick that I've seen stylists do all the time. I had like a turtleneck under a silk dress. I looked like a school marm. Like I Have to start dressing sexier. Like, what am I doing? I think these glasses are too big. Like, the whole. I really just had, like, a total, like, looks crisis. And I was also, like, it should be illegal for somebody to take a candid photograph of you without love. Right? Put it in without love. Put it in a book without your permission. Or put it on social media without your permission. Like, it should just be illegal.

[Podcast Intro]

It should be illegal. But I'm going to suggest that maybe there's something in those photos that is, like, representative of the essence of you.

[Jen Romolini]

There is. I'm fucking cocky. Roning. I got my hands going. I'm like, I look like an Italian fucking old lady monster.

[Podcast Intro]

I know.

[Kim France]

But.

[Jen Romolini]

But.

[Podcast Intro]

But the people who said they, like those photos were actually coming from a warm place. That's what I'm suggesting.

[Jen Romolini]

A hundred percent. One hundred percent. I just thought I was hotter.

[Podcast Intro]

Okay. Maybe I'm overthinking it.

[Jen Romolini]

Like, it's just, like, reverse body dysmorphia. That's all it is. It's just. It's like you think you're fine, and then, like, someone you don't know that well snaps a candid, and you're like, oh, actually, I have a gullet. And, like, whatever.

[Podcast Intro]

No, I know. I've had people, you know, look at pictures of me and say, this is a great picture of you. And I'm like, if that's a great picture of me, I give up. I give up.

[Jen Romolini]

No. And we've talked about this for years. This was, like, an initial topic of the show, which is like, that it takes 100 selfies to get a good one.

[Podcast Intro]

Yes.

[Jen Romolini]

It used to be like, oh, I'm just cute. But now it's like, okay, this has to write. Has to be, like, risen from, like, the Lord. The angle. The light has to be, like, glowing right on your face. Like.

[Podcast Intro]

No, it's really true.

[Kim France]

Oh, God.

[Jen Romolini]

Also, I'm like, may I should cut this sister wife hair, too? Like, my hair is, like, down to my tits right now. Like, I just. I haven't been paying attention.

[Podcast Intro]

You kept your eye off the ball.

[Jen Romolini]

I did.

[Podcast Intro]

Well, you've had other things going on. I would suggest 100%, but do you.

[Jen Romolini]

Ever have that where you're just like, wait, what happened to me?

[Podcast Intro]

Yes. This morning.

[Jen Romolini]

It's so stupid. Getting old is so stupid.

[Podcast Intro]

It really is.

[Jen Romolini]

It's so stupid. Anyway, I'm gonna miss you this week.

[Podcast Intro]

I'm gonna miss you, too. It's gonna be fun to be away, but I'm gonna miss You.

[Jen Romolini]

What are you most looking forward to on vacation? Like, what is the thing that, like, your. Your brain is already there?

[Podcast Intro]

The plunge pool.

[Jen Romolini]

The plunge pool.

[Podcast Intro]

I'm really excited about the plunge pool. It better be pretty great.

[Jen Romolini]

I bet that's it. Because if it's going to be in this disappointment, I'm.

[Podcast Intro]

I'm like, I'm looking forward to. Because every morning lately, you know, I do the. I do the morning dog walk duty. So that means every morning when the day is at. It's very coldest, I get up and put on 50 layers just to walk outside. And I just am so excited to not have to put on 50 layers just to walk outside.

[Jen Romolini]

That is nice. That really is nice. That's a real, like, bonus to your day. I always love bundling up, but actually the hassle of having to do it before you can go out is a lot.

[Podcast Intro]

Yeah, no, like, we're gonna go for a walk after we're done here, and I've gotta go upstairs and put on long johns before we can go out.

[Jen Romolini]

Has it been that cold?

[Podcast Intro]

Yes. I mean, for me, if it's below 35, I will put on long johns. Yeah, I just, like. I don't understand why people would want their legs to be that cold.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah, it's true. It's true. It's true. And that's an easy fix. So are you overwinter yet?

[Podcast Intro]

I'm over it. Like, I'm over it. So fucking over it. Cause it came hard.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Podcast Intro]

It just started really hard. And it hasn't let up.

[Jen Romolini]

You know, nothing's really let up. It really just. Nothing's let up. It just keeps coming. Everything keeps coming. Every unpleasant thing keeps coming.

[Podcast Intro]

And it's so hard. I'm trying to do my Friday post, you know, which is always links and stuff I wanted to read and whatever things I'm watching. And I'm just trying to make it kind of a refuge from everything that's going on. But there was this piece in the times about RFK Jr. And how he thinks that, like, fucking SSRIs cause school shootings and I want to kill somebody himself.

[Jen Romolini]

I know, I know. And I keep saying this, like, I have a shocking amount of people I know who are Mahas. They really are just like, you know, the government is trying to kill us and our food is poison, and he's. He's the only one out here. He's the hero. And. And he's just so obviously full of shit. Now, granted, like, some of the things he's saying like, you know, what's it. A broken clock is right twice a day. Some of the things he's saying about like dyes that cause cancer, like we should be banned. Like there are so many chemicals in our food that are not allowed in other countries. Like that's fair. But what happens is because he's right about a couple of things, then it's like, well, he must be right about every fucking thing. And he's not. The shit he's talking about has totally been debunked. But it's the way that these magas have like built a larger coalition is by bringing in these like hippie wellness people, which I'm, I'm a. Wellness influencers. Like it's, they're, they're all, they're all like borderline crazy.

[Podcast Intro]

Yep, yep.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah. Anyway, I'm hoping that my conversation with Karen will just bring everything that you and I cannot bring.

[Podcast Intro]

Me too. I'm really hoping for that for, for all of us.

[Jen Romolini]

But we will miss you and. All right, let's get into the episode. I hope you have a great vacation.

[Podcast Intro]

Thank you.

[Jen Romolini]

Our guest today is Karen Walren. Karen is a writer, photographer, lawyer, leadership coach and a long time activist. She's the author of the books the Beauty of different Radiant Reclaim Aging Practice, Joy, Raise a Little hell and the upcoming In Defense of Dabbling, the brilliance of being a total amateur, which you can pre order now. Glennon Doyle called Karen's 2021 book the Light Maker's how to work for change without losing your joy, which we're going to talk about a lot today, Essential reading. Welcome. Karen. Hi.

[Kim France]

Oh, sweet friend. It's so good to be here. Thank you for having me.

[Jen Romolini]

It's so good to have you here. And so first of all, how are you doing?

[Kim France]

Fine. How are any of us doing? How are any of us doing?

[Jen Romolini]

I know, man.

[Kim France]

Just.

[Jen Romolini]

Wow. Fascism.

[Kim France]

Who'd have thunk it? I mean, can I just say it's worse than I thought it was going to be. Like, I expected bad, but it feels even darker, which is saying something.

[Jen Romolini]

I know, I know. So here's the thing. Kim and I keep getting asked questions by listeners. They keep asking like, how should we handle these times? What can people, what can we do? We all feel so helpless. And honestly, you were the first person I thought of to help answer some of these questions.

[Kim France]

Oh God, you're in a really bad way, aren't you?

[Jen Romolini]

Yes. Yes. No. Because you are a person who reframes things in a way. You are not a toxically positive person. Which I was not interested at all. But you are a person who tends to look for and find and reframe things so that you can find joy. So first thing I want to do is I want to. To talk about. You've talked about the difference a lot about happiness and joy. Can you define that for me a little bit?

[Kim France]

Yeah. So they are very different. And I want to be really clear because I do talk about the difference a lot, but I don't know that I make this point, which is that even though joy for me feels bigger than happiness, for reasons I'll get into, I think happiness is important. Right. Right. When I wrote the book how to Work or Change Without Losing youg Joy, I was talking about the deeper. How to tap into meaning and purpose and sort of the feelings that you get, the positive feelings you get when you are doing purposeful work and when you are doing something meaningful, which I distinguish from happiness as something that's sort of fleeting and externally inspired. So somebody remembers your birthday or the. You get a great latte order and it's perfectly done or what you know, those are. They're fleeting and it's great. But it's not what I'm talking about in the book. Right. The book is really about that knowing that deep knowing that you're doing something that helps make the world brighter and help makes the world lighter. And that when you think of it that way, activism doesn't seem that hard to access. Right. Because activism, by its definition, means doing something purposeful or meaningful or tethered to your own integrity or values. So it's not as you know how to work for change without losing your joy feels like a sort of disconnect. Like, how can that. How is that possible? It actually makes a lot of sense that you could work for change and still stay tethered to joy. And I think that you have to remember that. But happiness is big, too. And I'm very pro happiness. And I think when things get as difficult as they feel right now, I think, you know, making sure happiness in however you can access it and however you can find it also makes some sense. Right. Like it makes some sense to be able to. You know what? We're gonna double down on, you know, family Sunday lunches, because that's something I've always found joy in and I found happiness in. And we're going to double down on making sure we have that because the rest of the week is so difficult, and we need to make sure that we're still hanging on to happiness as well.

[Jen Romolini]

Right. Right. No, I hear that. I hear that entirely. You've said activism, by definition doesn't occur when things are all great. We don't become activists because life is perfect and everyone has equal rights and we all have healthcare. We do it because something has pissed us off.

[Kim France]

Right.

[Jen Romolini]

We do this because something is wrong. We do this because we see something that needs to be changed. So I want you to take me from that pissed off. Cause I. I feel like being pissed off in some ways can. Can, you know, be activating and can be useful, but it can also be paralyzing. Right? So how do we make that bridge from just pure anger, which can paralyze, right. To feeling a sense of purpose? Because, honestly, imagining activism as joy just seems so radical to me at this point. And in this is, how do we avoid feeling helpless and cynical?

[Kim France]

Yeah, I don't know. You tell me.

[Jen Romolini]

Okay. I guess you might not have answers. We just might be talking about this shit.

[Kim France]

No, I mean, I laugh about that because I wanna be really clear that I definitely have spells where I am really feeling hopeless and I feel really cynical. And I'm like, why? You know, why even try? It's ridiculous. The bad guys always win. And, you know, like, it's really, really easy to get into that. But that's not helpful. The other thing is, I am very pro anger, like, to your point. Like, I think that anger is a wonderful spark to action. I think we need anger. And I think anger is also very clarifying. Right. Like, it sort of, to me, when you get to the point where you're angry, it's starting to feel personal, right. It's not an academic. This is right or this is wrong. Like, it's starting to feel really personal for you. And so I am very 100% pro anger. The problem is that if all we do is react in anger is that one, we can end up doing the same kinds of things that the people who are pissing us off. Right. Like, we can fall into the same sort of trap of being. Of dehumanizing, for example, of dehumanizing the people who are pissing us off or whatever else. And so it's very dangerous to move in anger. So, you know, and I talk about this in the book a lot, like, I'm a big journaler. I think expressing anger, whether or not it's with a friend or with colleagues or just putting it on a piece of paper can help exorcise. Right. Exorcise some of the heat. Right. Some of the fear in the heat with that act. And can help you start going, okay, what's my next step? What do I do next? Right, that's great. I'm angry, I'm pissed off. And now I've kind of released some of that heat. Now how do I. What's the next thing I can do? And so, and it's funny because I literally, this morning, I'm in the process of writing an article about being in that heat right now, right? Because I feel like I've been in that heat and also that hopelessness of. For me, I mean, I'll speak freely. I feel like all of last year I was doing everything right? I was making the calls and I was organizing, and still things didn't work out. So why bother, right? Yeah, why bother? And things are worse and things feel bigger. And so for me, what that means is once the heat has sort of been, you know, that scorch has sort of been taken off a little bit, the next thing is like, what can I do? What can I focus on in my immediate circle, right? Like, because I think sometimes if we think too globally, too nationally, too big, that's when we start to feel that overwhelm. And that's when we start to feel like, what can I do? I'm just one person, how can I? Right? But then if you start to think of, okay, you know, I'm really angry at this sort of all out assault on the LGBTQ community, what can I do as an ally? Maybe what you need to do is, you know what, let me just start by checking in with friends of mine who are gay or trans, right? Like, just checking, like, something that I can actually control, that I can actually do. And then once you start doing that, then you can start going bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger and bigger. Because, let's face it, if there's enough of us, critical mass that are doing things for our own communities, that counts, right? That counts. So I think that's, you know, first you have to get rid of the heat, and then you have to be like, what is actually within my control and do something. Because I think forward movement also is motivating, right? Yes, yes, that makes sense.

[Jen Romolini]

It does make sense. And that really taps into what I want to talk about. Because I think most all of the themes of the Lightmakers manifesto, aligning activism, work with your core values, cultivating community, are all things most of the people would say. Most people, at least that listen to this podcast, would say that they. They want in their lives, they want to feel more active, they want to feel more involved, but they Truly do not know where to begin.

[Kim France]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

They, they don't know, like, step one, what, what do I do to get involved and feel like I'm making some kind of difference? So how would you, how would you guide somebody in that position just to start? What's a first couple of steps?

[Kim France]

Okay, so there are maybe three things I would think about doing. One of the first things is to get really clear about what you want to be activated around. Okay. And what I mean by that is pick something. Pick something. So if I look at everything that's like, like just ticking me off. Let's just start with that. Right? Like, I'm, I'm. I get really angry around racism. I get really angry about any kind of bigotry. I get really angry about what's happening in the environment. I'm getting you, like, like there's all these different things that you can, that you can pick, right? Like, that are. But if I'm honest and if I get really, really, like, honest with myself, my thing, the thing that will just send me into the freaking ceiling is any kind of discrimination. Like, that's the thing that gets me. It's not that I don't care about the environment, of course I care about the environment, but the thing that just sends me into the freaking stratosphere is discrimination. And so I would suggest that you get clear about what's your thing that you want to work on, because it's very easy to be distracted by other people or very easy to think, well, if I'm not working on this other thing, then am I a good person? Right. And you just have to trust that there's somebody else for which the environment is the thing that sends them into the universe. And they're working on that. Right?

[Jen Romolini]

Right.

[Kim France]

So getting really, really clear on that. Because without that, that can be really overwhelming. Right. The second thing I think is broaden your idea on what activism looks like. Right? Because I think we all have this sort of stereotypical knee jerk. Activism is protesting. Activism is marching in the streets. Marching in the streets. Activism is being willing to, like, get beaten or get police dog set on you or, you know, like, that's activism. And broaden your idea. Activism is any purposeful action you do on the hope of making the world brighter for others. Any action you do to make the world brighter for others. And when it's that broad, now you can just focus on what can I do to make the world brighter for the people who are affected by whatever that thing I'm activated within. Right? So now You've got those two things, and then the next thing I think is, what do you do that you love to do already anyway? What are you doing? Whatever that is, it might be making art, it might be creating communities, it might be hosting parties. Whatever it is the thing that you love to do that you're gonna do anyway, that you would do if you didn't get paid for it. It's just fun. It's what you do. It's what you. And figure out, how can I use that thing and do it in service? Right?

[Jen Romolini]

Yes. Yes.

[Kim France]

So if I'm a person that throws great cocktail parties, maybe I need to figure out how to do a cocktail party that somehow is doing something in service. If I'm a craftsperson, what can I do to. Maybe I'm teaching a thing and everybody pays something. I'm gonna teach the way to watercolor. Cause watercolor's my thing. And I'm gonna teach people to do watercolors. And they all have to pay me money. And all that money goes toward a cause. Right, Right. Like, just figure out what can you do to do what you already love to do in service of that thing that you are really activated around that counts as activism.

[Jen Romolini]

Yes.

[Kim France]

Yeah. So I think the other thing that, again, it's tied to that sort of broad definition of activism is the sort of giving yourself grace to let your activism look different from whatever that stereotype is in your head. For some people, they are really good at, and they really love organizing a march or, you know, that's great. And I think it's great. And I'm not suggesting that you don't participate in that if you're moved to do so. But I think when you talk about your own path of activism, like doing it in line with what you're already wired to do and how you're already wired, that is how you can feel. You can stay tethered to joy, you can stay tethered to meaning and not burn out. Right. Because that's the other thing is, like, it's so easy to burn out. And the fastest way to burn out is doing things you don't like to do anyway.

[Jen Romolini]

Yes. Right. Right. Exactly. I really like this idea of marrying your gifts to your activism, which is a big part of this book, right?

[Kim France]

Yeah, For a hundred percent. Yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

Right. So if you're a writer, how can you be writing if you are whatever it is? I really love that. There's also. In this book, which I really recommend. Everybody pick up also, your voice is so beautiful, and you narrate it. And I listened to the audiobook and it was fantastic. But there's loads of good advice for daily practices like journaling, daily intention setting and mindful self compassion. Why are these things important to activism?

[Kim France]

Well, I mean, I think that again, doing things that you are not already wired to do and doing things that exhaust you, which a lot of these things will do anyway, even if you love doing it, right. Doing things that exhaust you without having a cadence of self compassion, without having a cadence of rest, without having like literally building a cadence of ensuring your own health and well being. Right. Like that's how you burn out. Right. Like that's how you burn out. And I think one of the things that I talk about a lot because this book has been out now for it's coming up on four years, right?

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah.

[Kim France]

And I do a lot of public speaking as my work, right. Like I probably do. That's how I make most of my living, is doing keynotes and that kind of thing. And I would say 70%, despite the fact that I've written other books, maybe 70% of the speaking I do is related to the Light Baker's manifesto. And I would say 90% of that 70% is on. They're like, can you really talk about self compassion? Could you talk about self care? Right. Okay. People are really, really, really, really wanting to know more about that. And I always say when I do this talk is in the Lightmakers, the self care and the self compassion part is at the end of the book. And I think if I were to rewrite the book, I might have put it near the front. Because I think what we do when we think about self care and self compassion, most of us think of it as the thing we do once we're exhausted, right. Like you get tired and you get burnt out and then you practice self care and self compassion. And I think if I were to rewrite it, I mean I wouldn't actually rewrite it this way, but I think in a lot of ways, at least as how we think about activism is I would front load it, right? Like I think the self care and the self compassion is something that you do to gather energy to go in. It's not something to recuperate. I mean, it is, but thinking about it as a front loaded thing and what I usually tell people in the sort of woo woo part of my talk is if you think about just nature, right. If you think about everything is very cyclical, right. Like the tides rise and fall, the waves come in and out, the moon waxes and wanes. Everything is on a cycle. Seasons come and go. And how arrogant is it of us to not consider ourselves nature, right? Like we are nature as well. That's how we work, is we do. So it's not just you think about self care when you're exhausted. It's actual built in a cadence of self care and self compassion in your life because that's how you have longevity in the work. That is how you keep the cycle going. That's how you keep moving, right?

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah, yeah.

[Kim France]

And just like when you think, if you even think of like our own bodies, like we inhale and exhale, right? But we don't inhale after we've expelled all the air out of our lungs and are gasping and then pull it in. It's a cycle, right? We don't even think about it. We exhale, we inhale, we're never, you know, it's never when we're spent, it's never when we're exhausted. So that really is important to build that cadence of am I resting, am I taking care of myself, am I doing all that? That is how you build longevity in the work. That's the only way you can can do it.

[Jen Romolini]

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[Jen Romolini]

And we're back. I think that part of the strategy of these people is to exhaust us.

[Kim France]

A hundred percent, right?

[Jen Romolini]

So that we are too tired and we are too stressed out and we just become complacent because of it. Because we just can't. Our nervous systems just can't handle it anymore. I mean, this is a blitz, right? This is, it's like non stop and it has to be intentional. That also they want us to be looking over here while they're doing something over here. And this is happening and this is happening. And if you are exhausted, which it's so easy to become fatigued so quick, just by a flip through the news, I feel exhausted. So I think that self care is not at this moment indulgent the way you might think, but absolutely a necessity.

[Kim France]

It's a cornerstone of activism. It is literally a cornerstone. If you think of it as a stool, it is one of the legs that keeps activism working. Like you have to do it. The other thing I think is what you're right, it's a blitz. And that's why getting clear on what your activism is and how you're going to do it, because that keeps. So that when you're bombarded by all of this that's coming at you, you can be like, this is the lane that I'm in, and this is what I'm doing. And yes, of course, I've heard people say, well, I want to turn off the news, but I feel like that's such a symbol of my privilege that I can turn off the lose when other. Like, no, turn off the damn news. Like, literally, like, you're not going to turn it off forever. You're not saying, I will never, ever be aware of what's going on again. You're just saying, I need to take a breath. Right? Yes, that. That's. I just want to take a breath. I just want to inhale. Or, you know what? I'm not going to look at the news till noon every day. You're still gonna find the news, but just take a minute, right? Like, take a minute to do that thing. And I think that's really. That's also sort of a trick of activism. It's like, if you're not activating 100% of the time, then are you really committed? Right? Are you really? Of course you are. And again, if you are committed to the rest, it helps you be committed when you're not resting, you have to be committed to all of it. It is a cycle, and you have to be very intentional of making that cycle happen.

[Jen Romolini]

You have to, because what's happening is we are in a collective trauma, and hyper vigilance is a trauma response. And when you are activated in that part of your brain, your brain is not working in your full capacity as an adult who can actually get a lot of shit done.

[Kim France]

Right, exactly right. Exactly right. And when you're. You can't get to. If you're like, oh, my gosh, everything's going. How are you supposed to know what your next move is? Like, you have to be able to pause and take the break, even when in your own trauma. Like, we were talking before we got on about, you know, the fires in Los Angeles, and of course, I've been through a hurricane. Like, the only way you know what to do in the next is to stop, right? Like, you have to, like, you get safe, first of all. You get safe, right? Like, you get out of harm's way, and then when you're out of harm's way, you can't be, oh, my God, can you believe that just happened? Like, you can't stay in that. You have to go to the point like, okay, I'm safe. What is the next step? That's how you do it. You've got to get to the point of calm. And that's, again, that cycle is so important because you have to build in that calm to know what the next step is every single time.

[Jen Romolini]

I think that also this sort of leads us into something that I really love about the book, which is talking about whispers. Right. And one of your interviews. I mean, whispers come up a lot in the interviews, but in one of the interviews in the book, someone, I think it's a pastor says, we spend so much time listening to the loudest things and the loudest voices. What we need to listen to are the whispers to really tune in, to hear. Need to hear pain, to hear a whisper of what we're supposed to do, where we're supposed to be. What has your experience been with this in real life? How do you help guide people to tune into this? Because it feels to me almost. I don't want to get godlike here, but it feels to me almost spiritual tuning into that whisper, that call.

[Kim France]

Yeah, well, it is spiritual. I mean, regardless of whether you're religious or not, it is a spiritual act. And, you know, I mean, I've said it so many times already since we've been talking, journaling is the way I can do it, right? Because if I just, like, I try meditating, sometimes it works. Most of the time it doesn't. Right. Like, it's really hard to keep sort of monkey brain from going nuts. When I can do it, it's great, but it's not something that comes easily to me. But writing. And I'm not saying this because I am a writer, because I'm not talking about authoring. Like, I'm not talking about creating beautiful prose, right? Like, I'm talking about. Actually the exact opposite. If you are trying to create prose, you're doing it wrong. I'm talking about brain dumping on a piece of paper.

[Jen Romolini]

Yep.

[Kim France]

Right. And for me, I mean, one of the. You know, one of the greats that talks about this is Julia Cameron from the Artist's Way. She talks about something called Morning Pages, where you write stream of consciousness for. She says three pages. I say 15 minutes. Right? Just stream of consciousness writing. And of course, at first, you're gonna write gibberish. You're gonna say things like, oh, my gosh, I forgot to get eggs. I should go buy eggs today. But suddenly, if you are committed to just. I'm gonna stay on the page and see what comes up suddenly. Things will start to come up. And in a logic that you didn't realize you had in you, of the way I like to think about it is, you know how I think this is true for everybody, that friends will tell you, oh, my gosh, you give such great advice. And I always love coming to look for you advice. And you're like, great, why can't I give myself advice? Right? Like, why is my heart like my life? My life? When you sit and you just write and you write and you write and you write often, it's a way to kind of take you out of your own head. And suddenly, like, even if you write, I really don't know what I want to be activated around, and then just wait for the next thing to come up. Like, maybe it's like, I know that the environment and that animal rights and that women's rights and that food insecurity, those are all really things important. But as you're writing this, suddenly you're gonna feel something that's like, oh, food's insecurity. Like, I felt something really, really big there. And so you're right. You know, it's really weird. As I wrote food insecure, I felt something. What's that about? And like, suddenly things start to come up where you're like, oh, this is kind of the thing that's the whisper, right? Like that. That's the thing that, as you're writing is so for me, writing is a huge, huge part of it.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah.

[Kim France]

But the other thing is just, like, just stay curious, right? Like, you find out that somebody's doing something. A friend of yours is, like, really involved in that, and you're like, yay, can I come with you? Let me just see what that's about. And it's not about, oh, I'm definitely going to be all about creating community gardens anymore. It's about, well, let me just see. And is there any part of that? And you go to the garden and you're like, okay, gardening is clearly not my gift, but I am a photographer, and maybe I can use photography to take pictures of these gardens that are happening and sort of amplify all this work that's happening. Like, there's all kinds of things that just may come up from the experiment or. Right. So that's the other thing is, like, I think one of the people that I interviewed, it might be who you were thinking of, says that something about practicing spirituality, like activism is an accident, and practicing things sort of makes you accident prone. And I think that that's really, really true. Is like, that's amazing. You start like just being curious about things and trying things and like, oh, that sounds like fun. Let me see what that's like. That makes you accident prone. And the happy accident is you find out what you're activated around. And I think, what is that whisper trying to tell you? And it opens up the opportunities for that to happen.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah. And as you're talking, like, I can feel myself calming down as we're having this conversation, because where it's leading me is into places of usefulness and helpfulness and peacefulness.

[Kim France]

Sure.

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Right.

[Kim France]

Because maybe even joy.

[Jen Romolini]

Yes, exactly. Well, right. Yeah, yeah, exactly. No, I mean, yes, because living your values and disrupting your routine a little bit, I think that that's also. When you said curiosity, I thought, yeah, you have to be like, I'm going to not start watching TV at 7 tonight. I'm going to go to my community board meeting.

[Kim France]

Yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

I'm going to disrupt things a little bit. And in doing so, I'm going to feel active. And in feeling active, I'm going to be leading myself away from this helplessness.

[Kim France]

Right, right, right, absolutely.

[Jen Romolini]

I'm going to feel useful just by attending that meeting, just by helping. You know, I contribute a lot to mutual aid in la. I follow a lot of mutual aid groups. And just by picking up the water and picking up the supplies a couple times a month, I feel good, it feels important. It feels like I'm not just sitting back and doing nothing.

[Kim France]

Right, right, right, absolutely.

[Jen Romolini]

And those opportunities are everywhere. And it's a virtuous circle because you're feeling so angry and frustrated and helpless and you start to do just a small thing or two and that takes you out of your own head into something else. It's helpful for the world. And then you just keep going around like that, Right?

[Kim France]

Absolutely, absolutely. And I think what you just said, you just said something that I think is also really important. And it's something, honestly, I forget about a lot because I'm such an introvert. Right?

[Jen Romolini]

Yes.

[Kim France]

But the idea of doing things in community, I think is really, really important. I have a great friend of mine who is in Portland and she organized this huge, sort of just a group of active of women activists after actually the first Trump election. And one of the things I remember her telling me that they do is they had like a monthly happy hour. And what they would do is they'd all get together at a bar, like these women at a. And yeah, they were drinking and having a great time, but they're also writing letters to their representatives. And so, like, because I hear, you know, you're a lot of people going, like, and I was one of them. I can't call my representative. What would I say? And I'll be all sweaty and nervous and blah, you know. But then the idea of, well, let's just get in community, we can all talk about how we do this. It's fun, right? Like you're all getting together, doing something fun. And then also you have now created like 500 letters that are going out to this one, right? So the idea of also doing things that are in community, that are fun anyway, that you get together with, you know, you develop a group of friends that all have this something in common that you're passionate around. Like, that's all part of it, right? That's all part of it. It's all activism.

[Jen Romolini]

It is. And just because this is a show for people who are middle aged and older, I do think that there is this thing. Like, this is totally a side note, but I'm just gonna tell this story. So I go to this social skills class with my kid. My kid is on the spectrum and they don't pick up social skills. So we started this social skills class and it's a 14 week class and it's separated. The parents have to be in one group and the kids are in another group. And you learn the same lessons. And then during the week you bring those lessons together. And every time I have to go to the social skills class, I'm like, oh, fuck. 6:30 at night. Jesus fucking Christ.

[Kim France]

Right?

[Jen Romolini]

I can't believe it. I don't want to do this. And last night, like, sometimes, you know, the dad swaps in for the mom, the mom, whatever, whoever the partners are, the different parents swap in. And last night a dad who had never been there before showed up and I had, I had gone kicking and screaming to this, right? And this dad, his kid's having a really hard time. Kids would, you know, neurodiversity have a really hard time. All different. His kids are having a really hard time. And we were telling this, this going through this rote exercise. And all of a sudden this man who had not meant to be doing this, just burst into tears about his kid. And it was such a profound moment of a shared experience with other people. And it was a feeling of community. This, you know, what he had, the situation he had described, most of the people in the room had been through. And it meant, I think, so much to everybody in that room. And I left feeling not elation, it's not that, but the joy of connection. And I hate leaving the house after dark.

[Kim France]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[Jen Romolini]

You know, but the more I do it in these intentional ways. And also, my kid left saying, that was a great class. I had such a great time, you know, and my kid's learning compassion too. Cause there are kids who are struggling, you know, struggling more than they are. And so they're learning a lot of compassion out of this situation. And it's so meaningful to show up, is what I'm saying. And I just came to mind because I think that we really can get. Not only do we feel helpless, but also we're just stuck. We're like, what am I? What am I? I don't drive after dark. You know what I mean?

[Kim France]

Right, right, right, right. But I mean, let's take that even a step further, right? Like, I love. This is. This is a beautiful story. So if we take it a step further, right? So you went kicking and screaming. You went there. You had this moment of real connection. You had this moment of empathy, of. Of. Of compassion, of common humanity, Right? Of being a part of something bigger. Right? Of being a part of something that. And then what happens when that happens? You walk away and you're more energized to do more.

[Jen Romolini]

That's right.

[Kim France]

Right.

[Jen Romolini]

That's right.

[Kim France]

Not only did all of that happen and in the moment, was it really great. Now you've got evidence for yourself about, this is why it's important.

[Jen Romolini]

That's right.

[Kim France]

This is why it's important. And that, to me, that is the secret sauce with activism, right? Is you do this thing and then you have those moments. And let's be clear. One of the things that keeps us from. From being tethered to joy is we forget those moments where amazing breakthroughs happen, Right? That's right. Like that dad went back home and realized he's not alone, right? That's right. Everybody in that room realized they're not alone for when they get frustrated or get sad or get like that. So taking the moment to go, that was an amazing moment. Not just glossing it over and moving on to the next thing, but taking that moment. That's where the secret sauce is. That's when you're like, oh, we gotta keep going. Like, that's it. There's the evidence that there's something really good happening here and that we can do good. So stop. And really. And I talk about in the book, like, celebrate the good, celebrate the breakthroughs. Celebrate, take the moment. Because that is where we get the Fuel and the fire to just keep going and going and going when we're hit with a barrage of we don't like anybody who's different from us. So all the people who have physical differences, emotional differences, like love differently, express their gender differently. Right. Like all of those things when you've got that barrage. But then in this small community you have and you're like, no, no, no, no. I have just found the evidence that that is bullshit. Right. That's where the power is. That's where the magic is. That's where the light is, is being able to keep doing those things.

[Jen Romolini]

Exactly. And I think too, it's also a lot of this. It doesn't have to be, but it's so good when it's in person. Right. Because I think this like so much is happening on social media and like, of course a lot of information is distributed in social media and it's good for some connecting. But there is this like public versus private work issue. Right? There's like. So like I saw this Onion headline which was girl who posts joy is an act of resistance. It doesn't, doesn't have any other acts of resistance.

[Kim France]

Right, right, right, right, right.

[Jen Romolini]

And I do think that even when well intentioned, you know, activism can be performative or feel like, well, we're this obligation like to show especially among my fellow white women, a lot of times on social media can be very. Virtue is signaling. It's not actually harming, but it's not really helping, you know, And I, I don't, I don't know where I'm going with this. It's just I, I'm, I'm trying to think of. It feels like. And you and I have had this conversation a bunch of times because, full disclosure, we're friends and I, I, we've had this conversation where you just need to get on the board. Like where people think they just need to get on the board on social media. Like, look, I'm doing something and I want to kind of discourage people from that, like public activism because it's not as necessary, I think. And I wonder what you think about this as the quieter private activism.

[Kim France]

Yeah, I think this is such a great question. This is such a great question. And I'm, I'm struggling with how to express as a person who does a lot of joys and active resistance posts myself. Right. Because that's what I write about. That's what I write about. So I think. And so I'm trying to figure out why would it be okay for me to do that, Right.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah.

[Kim France]

Well, and then somebody else. Well, but I mean, for real, though, right? I'm on social media. I'm on social media because I consider that being on social media is part of my work as an author. Right? Like, I have to be able to. I have books to sell. I have things like that. So I have to be visible. Right. And social media is the easiest way to be visible. So why is it okay for me to say joy is the ultimate act of resistance and have a post about that and somebody else? It feels disingenuous or it feels like, well, that's that box ticked. Right. And so I don't have to do anything else. Right. And so. So it's a. It's an interesting question for me because I don't know if. Or maybe I do know. I suspect that a lot of it has to do with. With intent behind it. Right. And I think if it is merely checking a box, people can see right through it. Right. Like, people can. Like, I think the reason that it feel. It doesn't feel as weird coming from me is because I wrote an entire book about it. Right. Like, I have. I have a little bit of. I have some chops behind it. Right. I have some credibility behind the concept. I have the research behind the concept, Right. So that it is a deep part of my work. Right?

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah.

[Kim France]

And so it doesn't come across nearly as disingenuous as it might be. Somebody who is just normally, I don't know, writing about food or fashion or something suddenly coming out.

[Jen Romolini]

This is about the pumpkin spice of activism. Okay?

[Kim France]

Right. And I think that's true. So I think. So one of the things that I talk about a lot when I speak, and it's the part of the book that most people bring up, is I talk about asking yourself three questions every day and putting the answers on your to do list. And the three questions are, how can I feel connected today? How can I feel purposeful today? And how can I feel healthy today? And the answers are going to change depending on the day. Right. Sometimes people feeling healthy today will be like an hour and a half at the gym. Sometimes it'll be like, I don't have time for that. I'm just going to drink extra water. Right?

[Jen Romolini]

Right.

[Kim France]

Sometimes being purposeful will be, I'm going to put joy is an active resistance on my Instagram. But on another day, it's going to be like, oh, no, no, no, no. I'm going to create a community of joy offline for people who I know are activated around this Cause that I'm also activated around, and I'm gonna sit there to feel like I'm gonna create a community of care for these people so that I can live. That post that I did the other day. Right. So the idea of what is your intention around anything that you're doing? And if it is not deeply rooted in work that you're doing offline, then it comes across as performative online. And I think that's really. That's the thing. It's, you know, what you said the Onion article doesn't have any other racks of resistance. I think that's right. I think, like, if all you're doing is, like, I'm gonna post a black square, well, you know, that's cute, but come off it. Right. Oh, I'm going to wear a safety pin. Like, okay, fine. Right. But if what you're doing is. No, I'm going to really find a way to be. And remember, again, as I said at the top of this, your activism doesn't necessarily have to look like marching or anything else. Right. But if I'm not doing something that is meaningfully tied to what I am already gifted at around the thing I'm activated around, if I'm doing that, then you can certainly be forgiven. Writing the joyful little happy post. Like, I think. I think that's the thing. It's all about what's happening offline that supports what you're putting online, I think is the thing.

[Jen Romolini]

Totally. And I think that there's so many, like, in this book, you talk a lot about integrity, empathy, kindness, values, intention, and curiosity. Like, those are the words that really came out for me, and I. I feel like that's basically the activist starter pack of words.

[Kim France]

I love that. Yes, absolutely. It absolutely is.

[Jen Romolini]

Yeah. And I wonder, like, what does it look like for you in a daily practice? What does activism look like for you these days?

[Kim France]

Yeah, that is such a great question, because I will tell you that, personally, I've been really struggling since the inauguration. Right. Like, I've been really sort of, like, what can I possibly do at this point? Now, one of the things I will say for me, this is Karen talking. This is not Karen lecturing other people. Right? Right. I'm a black immigrant woman in an interracial relationship with family members who are members of the LGBTQ community. Right. For me, right now, I am far more motivated to making sure we're safe. That's my thing right now. Right. Somebody who I really genuinely admire. I won't mention her name, but really genuinely admire. Posted recently about how dare anybody talk about leaving the country. This is now when you get down and fight, that's lazy. And I thought that is very easy to say if you are a white cisgender, you know, straight person in this country and you're talking to other people who are white cisgender, straight people, right? But there are people who are literally fighting for their own safety. I shared a story recently of my dad, within 48 hours of the election being attacked by a young white man on his bike ride, right? My 85 year old father was body checked, right. By a cyclist who he was. My father's in great shape and he was cycling and this cyclist came up and just body checked him and just went, going, right? So like, literally, I am concerned about the safety of my family, right? And so for me, I'm like, that's my priority right now is in this world, how can I make sure that my daughter's safe, that my partner's safe, that my family's safe? What does that look like? What does that mean? And I don't know the answers to those questions yet, but that's really what I'm focusing on, right? But that also said, as far as what my activism looks like, I wrote something recently about because everything that I do always uses light as a metaphor. I was like, you know what? I want to be sort of a porch light. I want to act like that signal that you're home, you're safe, that if you're with me, whoever you are, wherever you are, wherever you come from, that if you're coming to my online spaces or you're interacting with me personally, that you feel like you're safe, you're home. And whatever I do this year, that's how I want my activism to look like. I want it to be like, you can find respite here.

[Jen Romolini]

Yes, yes.

[Kim France]

For me, that's what it is. There are other years that I am like, no, I'm going to get up in people's faces, know that politicians better just get, they're gonna get sick of me, right? I'm gonna get loud this year. I can't. I don't, I just don't have it in me to do, to do anything. But that is to worry about the safety of the people I love. And then for the people who I don't know when they're in my space, when they're in my thing, like when I go speak, when I go do everything, if I'm talking to somebody, you feel like you can exhale here right before you go out in the world, that's what I wanna do. But for other people, it's gonna feel different. And for other people it might be like, nah, hell no, I'm done. And I'm gonna be loud and I'm gonna be this and I'm gonna do like. And you have to decide that for yourself. I think thinking, like, with all the good intentions of people going, now is when you fight and you've got to go out there. Like, everybody's circumstances is different. It's always different. I think you should do something to make the world brighter because, you know, that's what I'm taught. But how that looks and how you approach it and how only you can really be the person who makes that decision. And you shouldn't feel like you have to apologize for the way that you are choosing to activate. I think you choose to activate in a way that feels most authentic and most rooted in your integrity.

[Jen Romolini]

I think that's amazing and I think that's a good place to end. Thank you so much for this conversation. As usual, you are a light in the world and I'm grateful for you.

[Kim France]

And you are too, my friend. Absolutely you are.

[Jen Romolini]

And where can people find you in your work?

[Kim France]

Oh, well, my name is Karen Walren. K A R E N W A L R O N D and you can find me by just googling that name. It's an unusual name, but karenwaldren.com will get you there and you will find me everywhere. I'm all over the Internet and anywhere fine books are sold.

[Jen Romolini]

Thank you so much for being here, Karen.

[Kim France]

Oh, it's absolutely my honor. Thank you.

[Jen Romolini]

Thanks for listening to Everything is Fine. We are your hosts. I'm Jen Romolini.

[Podcast Intro]

And I'm Kim France.

[Jen Romolini]

If you like the show, please rate and review it across the platforms, especially Apple podcasts. Leave us a review. It helps people find the show. It makes a difference. If you want to support the production of the show and help us pay our editor, you can join our [e-mail] everythingisfine. It's $3 a month. You can find Kim on her substack kim france.substack.com you can find me at generalmelini.substack.com you can Find both of us on Instagram if podcast which is where we promote episodes of the show. If you want to join the Everything is Fine Facebook community, we are on Facebook with a free and robust and private Facebook group. The show is mixed and edited every week week by Natalie Rivera we are so lucky to have you and we will be back next week. The new Boost Mobile network is offering.

[Kim France]

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[Karen Walren]

That sounds like a threat.

[Kim France]

Then how do you think we should say it? Unlimited talk, text and data for just $25 a month for the rest of your life? I don't know. Until your ultimate demise. What if we just say forever? Okay, $25 a month.

[Jen Romolini]

Forever.

[Kim France]

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