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- [00:00]
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- [01:21]
Moon Zappa
Foreign.
- [01:26]
Kim France
Welcome to Everything Is Fine, a podcast for women over 40. We are your hosts. I'm Kim France.
- [01:32]
Jen Romolini
And I'm Jen Romolini.
- [01:33]
Kim France
And Jen, you had a very special experience this week.
- [01:37]
Jen Romolini
I did, and it is thanks to an Everything is Fine listener who I have to shout out after our episode with Ann Powers. And I was born bemoaning the fact that I had not gotten any Joni Mitchell tickets because I couldn't get any. And then there was one that I could get that was like eighteen hundred dollars. An amazing listener named Rachel. Hi, Rachel. Reached out and said, I have an extra ticket to Joanie Mitchell. I'm coming in from out of town. The person I was going to come with is not, is not going to be there. It's, it's a, it's like in this seat, it's not even sitting next to me, but, but it's, it's available, whatever. And I was like, I don't care where, like you could sit me in the, like the janitor's off. Like, I don't care. The closet. I don't care. I just would like to be there. And anyway, it was the, like, I swear to God, this Joni Mitchell concert at the Hollywood bowl on like a Beautiful autumn night in Los Angeles. Outside the breeze is blowing the moon is coming up over the mountain. It like, it was a transformative concert experience. And I'll tell you why. It's because we rarely see somebody. Like, I've gone to see a lot of people at the end of their careers, you know, like, oh, this is the last tour for this person. And usually it's like they're playing their hits, right? And it's like, oh, it's not what it used to be, but it's like still exciting to hear them singing. This was like so carefully organized that the songs that she played she improved upon. Like, for example, the song that. I mean, I was crying throughout the whole thing. I was like, oh, this is why you come to a concert because it's like the person is singing to you. This feels so personal and intimate. But Both Sides now is not like my favorite Joni Mitchell song. Yeah, I'm just like, whatever it is now with new Joni voice with this like, depth and richness and like huskiness to her voice and all this life experience.
- [03:39]
Kim France
Well, yeah, it was one of the.
- [03:42]
Jen Romolini
Most magnificent moments I've ever experienced in art in my entire life, particularly that song, because she reinvented the song and it just meant so much, you know, just, just. I mean, anybody doesn't know that song, go back and read the lyrics and you'll understand why. But it was just like, it was a very life affirming and gorgeous moment. And it also felt like an international event. People were so excited to be there. You was like. And people were in from all over and I was sitting with the nicest boomers. Like, I felt like I had like my nurturing gay boomer dads were like, sitting with me. Like, I just, I just wound up in like the best situation. And I, like, I was perfectly, like, edible too. I was just like, I was. I was just like sitting alone, sobbing and listening to Joni Mitchell. Perfect.
- [04:38]
Kim France
You're just giving me chills talking about it. I think that I, like a person who rarely cries, would have been crying through that. I don't know how I wouldn't have been.
- [04:47]
Jen Romolini
I mean, just so many Hijira. Like, there was just the. Every song, I mean, she made. She insisted on playing a lot of deep cuts that like, nobody gives a about. But, like, they were songs that. It made sense because they were songs she could still sing really well that didn't require the, the range she had when she was younger, you know, and.
- [05:06]
Kim France
That'S why you see rock bands do like reggae versions of their hit 20 years later. Cause they can't play. They can't sing the notes anymore.
- [05:14]
Jen Romolini
Yeah, yeah, totally. It, totally. And that's why it was so great. And you could just also tell she was enjoying herself. Like, she, you know, she would just like throw like aside. She ad libbed lyrics, you know, like, she was just having a good time. Like, inexplicably, Meryl Streep was on stage and so was like Rita Wilson. Like, there were just people there to just be like, hey, we're all hanging out.
- [05:38]
Kim France
Just good vibes all around.
- [05:40]
Jen Romolini
Just good vibes. It was, it was. The vibes were immaculate, I would say. And yeah, it was really, it was really special. And it really felt like, oh, we don't have to be the same thing. We are when we're young. We get to evolve. Like, some of the songs were better, frankly. Like, like they were just. They were better than I'd ever heard them because they were sung with, with a, a level of perspective and life experience that she could not have had in her 20s and 30s.
- [06:13]
Kim France
Yeah, yeah.
- [06:15]
Jen Romolini
And so in a way, it was, the concert was a lot about what it is to get old. I know, I know, I know.
- [06:24]
Kim France
I've seen, I've seen pictures on my social media from people who were there and I'm just so in, see. And you, you and Moon, in our episode today, which was a great episode, we're talking about being tired of la, but you just described a perfect night. And I realized Joni Mitchell was a big piece of why it was the perfect night. But Los Angeles was also a reason why it was a perfect night.
- [06:46]
Jen Romolini
It was a perfect Los Angeles night. It really was. It was Los Angeles. I mean, just like New York probably rarely has those magical moments for you now, but I mean, New York still has those magical, magical moments. It's just that wherever you live, the thing is everything's evolving, right? And it's. What was so cool about this was the audience was older too. Like, I felt like young at this concert, you know? Like, I mean, it was like, it was like. I mean, I did, I did stand next to Seth Rogen for a minute. So that was a. You know, I was like, oh, yeah, we're the, we're the youngins here, sir. Yeah, it was a perfect, it was a perfect Los Angeles night in a lot of ways. But it was just also like I felt high after it. I felt like transformed after seeing it. And I was like, if she was in residency somewhere, I would, like, want to come back to this, like, every three weeks, I want this feeling again and again and again. I get that, but it doesn't. The reason it was so special is because it doesn't exist like that.
- [07:44]
Kim France
No, I mean, an evening that special. Joni Mitchell and in Los Angeles, in her city, you know, and at night and at the Hollywood bowl and at her age, you know.
- [07:56]
Jen Romolini
Yeah, no, it was. It was. It was really something. And I'm so grateful to the listener who gave me that ticket. Like, what an incredible gift she gave me. And it wound up Carmick for her. She wound up getting. She gave me this extra ticket and she had. She was in la. She has a new baby. She was in LA just for the weekend. It was her first time leaving her baby. And the first night she was in la, she has this acquaintance who was like, you know, I have box seats for the Joni Mitchell concert. So the first night she wound up sitting in box seats, which is just, like, amazing. She was like, yeah, Karma. And I was like, yes, that's amazing.
- [08:33]
Kim France
Our listeners are the best.
- [08:35]
Jen Romolini
Our listeners are the best. But this episode. Let's not take shine away from this episode. I can't believe we got to talk to Moon Zappa. I can't.
- [08:44]
Kim France
I know, like, totally.
- [08:45]
Jen Romolini
She's just old enough older than me, and by just enough that I totally, like. I went back and looked at the videos of her on mtv and I listened to Valley Girl, and she was just older than me by enough that I, like, totally was intimidated by her and kind of looked up to her. She was so cool, right?
- [09:04]
Kim France
She was super cool. And a journey. What a childhood.
- [09:09]
Jen Romolini
And she really cool.
- [09:10]
Kim France
She's still cool and she's still cool. No, she is. She was great. I loved having her on. It was as good as I hoped it would be.
- [09:17]
Jen Romolini
And everybody, you should go out and buy this book. It's a. It's a really good book about. It's a memoir about trauma. But it's. It's like. And about being a celebrity's kid. But it's also very optimistic and hopeful in some ways, I found.
- [09:30]
Moon Zappa
Yeah, it is.
- [09:31]
Jen Romolini
It is also resilience. And also you're gonna have. If you're Gen X, you're gonna have a lot of, like, real Gen X moments I was vibing out, you know, like, oh, my God, that.
- [09:41]
Kim France
That celebrity, like MTV and shit. Yeah.
- [09:45]
Jen Romolini
Yes. Yes.
- [09:46]
Kim France
Well, let's get into it. Our guest today is Moon Unit Zappa. Moon is an American actress, artist, singer, tea merchant and author. She is the daughter of the musician Frank Zappa, with whom she collaborated on the hit 1980 song Valley Girl, and more recently as the author of Earth to Moon, a fantastic and harrowing memoir of her childhood. Welcome, Moon.
- [10:12]
Moon Zappa
Thanks for having me.
- [10:13]
Jen Romolini
Thank you so much for coming on.
- [10:15]
Kim France
Yeah, I'm really glad you're here. And I have to say, I can't remember the last time a book affected me so much emotionally. Like, in the direct aftermath of reading it. You had one really crazy and difficult childhood. Your mother Gail was, as you described, pretty mean and at least occasionally abusive. And your dad was largely absent the recording in this basement studio, touring or sleeping with groupies. What was it like to relive that much trauma? Was writing this book as hard as it seems like it might have been?
- [10:45]
Moon Zappa
Oh, yes. I mean, I definitely. I feel like I should probably do a brand endorsement for Kleenex or some other puff, whatever those. The popular tissue brands are, or just switch to the classic cotton handkerchief, the vintage lace situation. Yeah, I mean, I, I didn't anticipate that I would be re. Traumatizing myself. In my head, I was just gonna lay it down and then move on and, and then it would kind of be like a, like a clogged plumbing, like a sink or something, and you just kind of plunge it and then, and then the water would run clean and easily. And that's, that's not what, what ended up happening. I definitely was not prepared for the. Yeah, the re. Traumatizing thinking about all of that stuff. And so I definitely, I had to employ a system that I could, I could rely on. So everything from just chunking, as they say, just. Just saying, okay, I'm going to just be in agony for two hours. Then I'm going to drink tea and see a friend and take a walk and then I'm going to call a therapist and you know, whatever the need of the day was. So in that way, I was learning in real time the self care and the self soothing. I didn't have the good fortune to learn growing up, so I was building the blueprint as I went.
- [12:15]
Jen Romolini
It's such an excavation. But I also, I was just telling you, I listened to the audiobook. How was that for you? Because I find sometimes speaking the words out loud is another layer of trauma on top of writing them. And I could hear what I felt was you very emotional in the audiobook. I'm wondering what that experience was like for you.
- [12:41]
Moon Zappa
Yeah. Again, thank you for that thoughtful observation because that was another thing I hadn't anticipated, which was, as you described, saying, saying something Painful out loud. And the, the upside was that the engineer, who was male, had not heard any of it or read any of it. And so I, I could use him as my, as the person I was literally telling the story to. And so that gave me a kind of a focus. And, and then the, as far as the emotion goes, I, when I would feel it was too emotional, I'd redo it and then rely on the director and the engineer to ultimately make the call of which take made the most sense. Because I had lost all objectivity. I couldn't have a sense of what the reader needed or what was better storytelling. But I was. I had to rely on other ears.
- [13:50]
Jen Romolini
You know, it's funny because people in dysfunctional homes, they usually kind of have to guess at what normal is. When did you realize your family wasn't like other families?
- [14:01]
Moon Zappa
I mean, there were indicators because early on, some of the stuff that was happening wasn't okay with me. So I, at a very early age. So whether I thought it was like other households or not, I just knew I didn't like it. And it's confusing when you're told, I love you, but it doesn't feel like I love you and you're supposed to be grateful for what you're given. That doesn't feel good to you in your own home. And so early on I had that inkling that some of this stuff was just not a great environment for a kid. A blow up sex dollar. The orgy painting. Yeah, the orgy painting. My dad moving a groupie into the basement and sleeping with her downstairs. My mother crying about it. Too many, you know, a family Ouija board, my parents not having friends, but having kind of people that were just hangers on ERs that didn't feel safe or attuned or honestly on planet Earth from time to time.
- [15:11]
Kim France
So do you feel in some ways as though you're kind of. That it took you a long time to rediscover that your family wasn't like other families? I'm thinking about the story you tell about your mom handcuffing you and your brother together and locking you in the closet and making you listen to the sound of your own crying because it was annoying. And you tell this story on a talk show and afterward the host turns to you and very gently says, you just described child abuse.
- [15:38]
Moon Zappa
Right? In the book, I describe how for years I'd been telling this story as a fun story about the unconventional parenting and how successful it was because we stopped crying and we were able to then move on and it wasn't until this woman's face after. And again then I thought, what do the other people think when I was telling those stories? How come they didn't have that same reaction? So when she had that reaction, I thought, what a gift and what a nightmare that I. It was like finding out you had spinach in your teeth for, you know, 25 years.
- [16:14]
Jen Romolini
There are so many lines in this book that really felt like gut punches to me. And one really struck me. One of the ones that really struck me is when you said of your family, none of us seem to be built for life. And I wonder how you reckoned with that. Like, as an adult, how do you feel built for life now, do you feel?
- [16:38]
Moon Zappa
I always felt like there was a handbook everybody else had and they all had the secret handshake and all the pages were missing from mine and. Or I was given a Thomas Guide when everyone was doing Google Maps. Like it just didn't. It just none of it. There was no congruency between. I mean, I just, I just always felt like I was observing others in a hyper vigilant way to kind of just get a sense of, is that how you do it? Is that, is there a better way to do this? How are other people doing this? And I guess the book, in some ways, I mean, we have the luxury now of many more, much more research done about the impact of invisible, psychological, emotional, psychic scarring. But at the time I'd be having. I'd be on crying jags and I just didn't know that I was grieving or I didn't know. I thought something was wrong with me. Instead of understanding, oh, that is the appropriate reaction to the circumstances. I just didn't know that until much, much later. So it's definitely been a weird. The image I have is of sewing and then going back and catching all the stitches that you missed. There's. It's a weird process and I think that everybody has some version of that and I think that's what's relatable in the story. It might not be the same kinds of situations. You might not be playing your horrible moments out with celebrities, for example, but everybody has some version of feeling like a fish out of water or feeling misunderstood or feeling like they don't have the words or they're confused by what's happening and they maybe blame themselves unnecessarily or take on too much responsibility and so on.
- [18:26]
Jen Romolini
And I think that the absentee father, abusive mother dynamic was fairly common for women of our generation and just that sort of desperation to get the attention of your father was highly relatable to me, whether your father was famous or not. I think that fathering was just not a thing for our, like, dads just weren't very present for the most part. You know, I think for Gen X women. And I think there were also a lot of frustrated and resentful mothers, though yours seems particularly in, you know, over the top. But I think this book is super relatable is what I. Yeah, I mean.
- [19:13]
Moon Zappa
I definitely tried to. Well, I worked it like a cold case or a very difficult sudoku puzzle. And I had a lot of empathy for Gail and for Frank because you can only give what you can give yourself. And so I always had this awareness that no matter how sad I was, Gail was likely sadder because she was. This was her husband, and I didn't appreciate how he treated her. And then she kept choosing it again and again. And so I was watching these, not just power dynamics, but these relational dynamics that were just so off putting and so normal for us and so disappointing. So we all, I feel, wanted Frank's undivided attention because he was so charismatic. When he'd shine his light on you, you were the center of the world and you just felt so seen and so heard. But it was always on his time schedule, his time frame. And so I had that jealousy of that anybody or anything that took him away from me was a threat. And so Gail had that doubled. And for whatever reason, she also felt that about the time Frank spent with us as kids, that also robbed her of time with him, and that was her wound that she just never addressed. And I understood that, again, this is not a book about blaming. This is really me trying to tell it like a police report and just say this happened, this happened, so that the reader has the experience and comes to their own conclusions.
- [20:53]
Kim France
I would say also that there's something about being in a house with a quote, unquote great man that really changes the rules.
- [21:02]
Moon Zappa
Definitely, because they're kind of not just forgiven or excused. It's. It becomes aspirational to have those perks that the quote, quote genius has access to, whether it's accolades, fans clapping, extra blowjobs, whatever the perk is. And I understood even then, of course, it's more fun to have people clapping and throwing themselves at you than to make sure kids get to school on time. But I always had to set my feelings aside because I always felt, and we were shown over and over again that he had a larger calling, a larger purpose, and his output was insane. I mean, he made 100 albums in 25 years. And that was just what he could get to do, you know what I mean? And this took me four and a half years, struggling and kicking and screaming. And so I think there was also his own creativity, had a runaway train quality that he had to grab onto also. He had to temper that and put a saddle on it. And so he was. I always imagined that he was dealing with all of that. And today he might have been seen as neurodivergent because he didn't have the ability to do anything else. So it was, I think, a combination of missing social cues, selfishness, stunted in many areas. I mean, you could not have a sincere conversation with him. You could drop as many F bombs as you wanted, but earnestness was just frowned upon. Emotions were not something to indulge or think about. I mean, he said, happiness is not a goal. And so I was just like, well, don't head towards happiness.
- [22:52]
Kim France
Just how old were you when he said that to you?
- [22:55]
Moon Zappa
So little. So little.
- [22:57]
Jen Romolini
Wow.
- [22:58]
Kim France
I mean, what are you supposed to do with that? Even as a 60 year old, it's hard to know what to do with that, right?
- [23:05]
Moon Zappa
I mean, that's just. That's such bad information, such bad wiring. I mean, maybe what he was really saying was like, it's a byproduct of doing something you enjoy. But he didn't say that. There was just a period at the end of the sentence, not an ellipses. So I was just left. In so many cases, I was left to interpret words or actions and make crazy sense out of it, do crazy math in my head. For example, if he spent time with a woman who meant nothing to him, but he didn't spend time with me, my kid brain said, well, I must be worth less than nothing. Or if Gail was sad about my father and then she didn't spend time with me, my kid brain said, I must be worse than the thing that makes her sad because she's indulging the sadness. She's putting her attention on the sadness. Or when she was overworking and very upset about it. I thought she'd rather do work she hates than be with me, so she must hate me more than the work she hates. Do you know what I mean? So I don't think they intended these outcomes, but unfortunately that's just what happens when nobody goes, okay, let me just regroup and tell you that wasn't about you. I just want to say, sorry, how you doing? Like, there was no. There was no. Like family check in or. Or they just did not have the ability to. Yeah. To look outside of themselves or to apologize.
- [24:29]
Jen Romolini
And you seemed particularly sensitive and aware. I think that, you know, there's that. That old thing of the. The dandelion and the orchid, you know, the dandelion in family structures. Dandelions who are like, very, like, robust can handle all this abuse and they come out of the childhood like a total. Than the orchid who's just like, feeling everything and is. Is really sensitive. How do you.
- [24:56]
Moon Zappa
It's so funny because I think about orchids all the time. I literally think it's the meanest gift you could give somebody because they're impossible to care for. When somebody gives me an orchid, I'm like, you hate me. Yes. And then. And then when. When they can do it so easily, like, no, just put one ice cube in it. You just live it literally. Give it something that's not nurturing or loving at all. I'm like, what? What? So I. I love this analogy because. Yes, exactly. And I'll tell you one funny story about an orchid. This is sidebar. This is one of the stories I tell my kid that he thinks is the funniest story in the whole universe, but it is that I. I had. I had. I want to say, like, this happened, I don't know, maybe my early 20s. I had gone to Chin Chin, which was a popular Chinese ish restaurant on sun on the Sunset Strip. I. It was before the lunch rush had happened, and I sat at a table that was for two people. And somebody immediately came over and said, oh, you can't sit here. We saved these seats for two people. You can't sit there as a single person. I go, what if I order enough for four people? Could I sit here? What if the two people order just iced tea? And she goes, it's policy. We had a discussion that was so unpleasant about the word policy. And I was like, just use your human brain. I'll eat fast, serve it fast.
- [26:10]
Jen Romolini
I'll eat it fast.
- [26:11]
Moon Zappa
I'll be out here before the. And it was just. She was. She just could not be less helpful. So I was so angry, I stormed off. And then to self soothe, I bought myself. Say it with me. An orchid. Inexplicably. And so I went and bought an orchid, and I was still starving. And then I went to a restaurant called Avotra Sante on La Cienega, a health food restaurant. And I walked in with my orchid because it was a hot day and I didn't want to Leave it in the car. And I was immediately told, no, no, no, you can't sell those in here. Because at the time it was very popular for people to come in with roses and try to like get you if you were having a romantic lunch. I was literally a single person with an orchid and I was told, you cannot sit here. I said, I'm. Anyway, it was just. It was, it is. My kid thinks it's so funny that I. Number one, My instinct was to go buy a plant because I was sad and then take the plant to lunch and then be told I couldn't. No shoes, no service, no shirt. You know, whatever.
- [27:08]
Jen Romolini
Orchids are nothing but a hassle. I don't understand people who keep them. I can't, it's. It's too much.
- [27:13]
Moon Zappa
Same with balloons. Balloons? The end.
- [27:15]
Jen Romolini
Oh yeah. No, no, none of them.
- [27:17]
Moon Zappa
No, no.
- [27:18]
Kim France
My mother has a windowsill of dead orchids in her kitchen that she won't get rid of. All the orchids she's been giving that. She holds out hope for that.
- [27:28]
Jen Romolini
What does that say about her psyche? I don't.
- [27:30]
Kim France
Yeah, she's hopeful maybe.
- [27:33]
Moon Zappa
That's amazing.
- [27:35]
Jen Romolini
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- [29:30]
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- [30:53]
Jen Romolini
And we're back.
- [30:57]
Kim France
But I want to ask you about motherhood since you brought up your kid, because you write one of the stories you tell is when your kid gets really, really sick and goes to the hospital and it's terrifying and I'm terrified reading the words. And you call Gail and Gail says, I just got to a holiday Christmas party. I can't leave. That would be rude. How. Like obviously that was, you know, going to inform motherhood. But how did you start with motherhood?
- [31:26]
Moon Zappa
Well, there was again going back and revisiting these, these situations. I was just like, yep, I should have had no contact with her there. I should have cut her out of my life there. I should have ended it there. I mean there were so many, so many situations. And yet I still had empathy for her because I just thought no sane, well, person says or does those things. And so I just I thought, well, you don't abandon somebody who's not well, because I wouldn't want to be abandoned if I was having a time of it. And so my. I don't know, I just always had this sense of. I think because I felt so discarded, I just could not discard another. I couldn't do the thing that was done to me, even if they were my moral enemy and more of an archetype than a parent. But in the process of becoming a parent, I then revisited these situations with even more anger because I thought, it is so easy to love somebody and say sorry. It is so easy to want somebody's dreams to come true. It is so easy to want to be on Team Kid and be a part of that and problem solve and give the person tools and not leave them stranded. And so that was a healing, but also, again, just another revisiting that deep sorrow that I didn't know wasn't normal. I mean, that's just how it was. There wasn't an alternative. I'm actually listening to Hope Edelman's book, Motherless Daughters or Motherless Mothers. I can't remember the title now, but she talks about that process. I guess her mother died when she was little. And I thought, oh, if my mother had died before she had the chance to put terrible ingredients into the pot, I would have had the ability to imagine a loving mother that would have shown up for me, that. That could have been there and that grief would have been a different kind of grief. And I don't know, I just think about the different kinds of grief that's out there now that I'm aware of grief at all. I think there's so many ways to, again, to create that blueprint when you've never received it. Like, it's a relief to hear, oh, those symptoms of anxiety or the inability to easily make a decision or a hypersensitivity to the least little thing, or a fear of constantly feeling like you're going to die or that there's. There's never going to be enough for you or whatever the, whatever the. The noise in your head is that those are symptoms of not being mothered. Well. And so that's what's weird about the book, is, yes, I set some things down, but in some ways it's opening up the chance for me to finally grieve and start to cry because I was just doing. Do the thing in front of you. Do the next thing. Do the next thing. Just get through it. Just get through it. Just get through it. And in Some ways the book also is a. A portrait of what they're calling toxic femininity, where you just pretzel and pretzel and pretzel and have no needs in order to create harmony or, I don't know, just exist without being slapped down more.
- [34:34]
Kim France
You talk a lot in the book about pleasing other people. How did you overcome that?
- [34:41]
Moon Zappa
Well, first comes the awareness when I found out that that actually is a PTSD reaction. Fawning people, pleasing fawning is a PTSD reaction. It is a coping mechanism, a strategy for not being injured further. So, yeah, it's a muscle to not do that, to even ask myself, what do I want? I don't even have a point of reference because that was just never mirrored. If I say I had an interest in a doll, it wasn't like they said, you love dolls, let's give you more dolls. Let's. What else do you love about dolls? There was not that reflection back. So I, I didn't. I. I lost the ability to even know what I like or what I'm interested in because I had to learn how to want nothing. There was a point in my life where if you had put a big bowl of, you know, dog in front of me, I would have been like, thank you so much for this meal. I, I would had gratitude and no preference for what was served to me because that's how beaten down I was in terms of the messaging. Again, probably not intentional, but those are the ingredients that went in the pot that I'm just, I'm not interested in at this point.
- [35:52]
Kim France
I mean, I think that's what, what feels so moving to me about this book is the circumstances of our childhoods were very different. But I, you know, I was, you know, upper middle class and neglected. But neglected with a upper middle class neglected trademark.
- [36:08]
Moon Zappa
Okay.
- [36:09]
Kim France
Well, because it means a different. You know, I was neglected, but my needs were taken care of. But, but, you know, I had a mean alcoholic father. And the way I felt after I read the book was very seen, even though the circumstances were very different. And I think a lot of it has to do with that. Like that little girl who doesn't know any fucking better.
- [36:29]
Jen Romolini
Yeah.
- [36:30]
Moon Zappa
I mean, again, I talk about how Brene Brown talks about when you can really articulate something so thoroughly, it's like a pressure release valve. There's something that shifts when you can really name something. Well, and books and movies and art and dance and these things, hearing percussion, these kinds of things where there's a, an embodiment that expresses something that you can't find the words for or that somebody says something in a way that you can suddenly have the words for. I mean, that's what I was hoping that the readers could say. Oh, yes, I know a version of what you're talking about. And now I can adjust it and finesse it and also let it go. I mean, that's my hope. That was my hope and that is my hope that people will. A lot of people have been coming up to me in the book readings and saying, I used to want your life. I used to idolize you. And now I'm so glad that I had my own family. And I think that like. Good, good.
- [37:35]
Kim France
Well, can I, can I say I went back because you wrote about going on Letterman, so I went on YouTube to see you on Letterman. And you write about how awkward you felt in your skin and you just look like this incredibly poised, cool, like well beyond her years. 14 year old.
- [37:52]
Moon Zappa
Yeah. And I look at that and I think, you know, I just remember my, my dad hated interviews. And. Well, you can read about it in the book. You know, the story about Valley Girl, it's so complex. That was actually some of the hardest writing I did in the book. When I turned the book in, I had no Valley Girl chapters in it. It was in a blind spot. It was so painful. It was a real blind spot spot for me. And so obviously the, my editor said, maybe you should go back and write about the stuff everyone knows you for. And I thought, oh, right.
- [38:27]
Jen Romolini
So it's, it's such an important. It's so, it's so funny because I also went back after reading the book and I listened to the song again and I watched some interviews and it's so funny. Like we all still talk like this. Like you said, like, it wasn't even weird. I was like, I still talk the way I heard in this song in 19. It was such an important song.
- [38:49]
Kim France
Oh, no.
- [38:50]
Jen Romolini
Like, I like, it really wasn't. Like when I heard it for the first time, I remember being like, what is this language? You know, I was, I was an east coast kid. It was like totally new for me. But when I heard it now, I was like, this is the way all women of my generation speak.
- [39:07]
Moon Zappa
Well, I had that same reaction that you had when you heard the song. That's how I felt when I heard it in, in person at bar and bat mitzvahs and the mall and in my, in my school, you know, courtyard. And so again, I didn't have that objectivity. I was just, just reporting What I saw, like, I was some kind of a. Again, like a weird reporter, a weird journalist. And it wasn't until recently that at a Woodstock book event, a band called Mona Freaka. I think these kids are part of the. The rock and roll. I forget what.
- [39:45]
Kim France
Yeah, the Rock Academy.
- [39:46]
Moon Zappa
Rock Academy, exactly. And they performed the song to welcome me. And this. This. The lead singer, Roxy, she just. She nailed it in such an amazing way. I mean, she. She hit every beat and she. She was really a storyteller. And it was. So I just thought, oh, this is what it must have been like to. To other people, because I was just. I was astonished by her handling of the material and her humor and her. Yeah, it was just. It was just delightful. It was just. It was really fun.
- [40:17]
Jen Romolini
No, and you were so smart. I mean, I hope that you've been able to bask in that. In looking back, like, it was such a smart. It was. It was really creative, and it was a really smart idea. Like, it really was. And, I mean, it's a song that holds up, too, so I. I hope you feel good about it.
- [40:34]
Kim France
You know, it was also Frank Zappa's biggest American hit.
- [40:39]
Moon Zappa
Right. So that was. That was a little bit awkward. He was in his 40s, and he had his first AM hit with me as a sidekick, and so. And he was. Privately, Gail told me that she was the only reason I got credit for the song. She said that Frank didn't view me as having written it because improvisation is not writing. And I never questioned what she said to be other than true. So maybe he felt that way. I don't know. But that was what I was told. And so I had the awkward task of feeling completely demoralized and that I had no creativity. I was just something to be exploited. And then I had to go out publicly and do promotion for something that privately I was kind of shamed for, or made to feel ashamed. That, again, that was some of the hardest stuff to write about because it was. There was a lot to untangle and tease out and revisit.
- [41:39]
Jen Romolini
I thought you did a really. I thought that was a very nuanced portrait of where your father was at that time in his career and how you think this probably made him feel and, you know, but. And your own grappling with success. It's. It's really beautifully done. I'm glad that you left it in. I'm glad that it came into the book because it's. It's so important to your story. But I've heard you say that you Chose not to include some of the really egregious things that happened to you. You know, I wonder why. Like, who were you protecting at this.
- [42:11]
Moon Zappa
Point, I think that I was so concerned with. First of all, I don't think I knew how to write it with equanimity. I don't think I was able to say those things and find a way to justify their actions. Some of these things, that was just too much of a hot button for me. And even now when I'm thinking about them, I'm like, there's a frog in my throat about it. I didn't want the reader, and I still don't want the reader to dislike anyone in this book. I want people to see everybody as human, everyone as flawed. Everyone has gifts. Everyone is trying to manage their own. I say their weird goody bag. Nobody picks their height or their eye color or their bone structure. You just kind of have to work with what you're working with. And so, again, I just tried to show that everybody. They were dealing with the parcel that they were handed. And that's hard enough, I find.
- [43:15]
Jen Romolini
Yeah. That. Well, I mean, it's amazing, though, that you were able to be as generous, I think, as you are. I think it comes with age. Right. Like, it's a good thing you didn't write the book probably, like, 20 years ago. You have. You have so much more experience of living and so much more perspective. And that's really. You really. That really feels that it really comes through in the writing.
- [43:39]
Moon Zappa
Thank you. Yeah, I think about that all the time. If I had written it while Gail was still alive or while my dad was alive, it would have been, doo, doo, doo, doo, doo, boop. You know, one of these little. Here are the 14 fun things about growing up in an unconventional household. And I still would have been doing the family business. You know what I mean? I still would have been. Would have been promoting the mustache.
- [44:07]
Jen Romolini
Right. It would have been an act of reclamation, which I think this is.
- [44:11]
Kim France
You know, you talk in the book about what happened when your mother died. She basically engineered divisiveness between you and your siblings by giving your two youngest siblings more control, basically, over the Zappa family trust. And you and your brother, Dweezil were given 20% each, I think.
- [44:32]
Moon Zappa
Yeah. And, you know, it wasn't that she made an unequal distribution financially. What killed me was that she basically wished two of her children well and not the other two. That she said, you and Dweezil can never have anything to do with your father's legacy. Can't make a decision about it when we all equally sacrificed and equally gave our own needs away to serve our father's needs or Gayle's needs. And divisiveness only works if you're susceptible to divisiveness. That's the thing that was so shocking as well, that I thought, who are my siblings? That they're like, I love this plan. Now, we've. I've gone through this with my siblings and we've had many. We've revisited this conversation many times and we, We. I'm making more headway with them, but they. It was a big eye opener for me to see. Oh, we were really raised differently. We have some of the same shared memories, but. But totally different experiences of those times and those events. And it's different when you're a middle child and you're a boy. It's different when you're the baby and a girl. It's different when you're. It's just everybody essentially is having a different childhood. And I just didn't see that because as the oldest, I saw us all shoulder to shoulder, moving forward as equals. And I guess in some ways they saw me as stealing more of the pieces and being another thing standing over them also and something to push back against or something that abandoned them too. And so that was eye opening to me. And I had six years of estrangement to think about that. But again, the other piece that Gail said in the will was that if anybody finds God, then they don't even get what I've given them. And that was also completely. I mean, I was just gobsmacked. I was just. She put herself above God. Like, she's basically like, to work out that puzzle of, I can't. I have to value money more than trees. I have to value money more than I value my own essence. I have to value or reject it and miss out because I care about myself. What? What now? I mean, this is such a weird spell of poison to leave behind. It's such a. And again, it made me have to get bigger than death and say somebody's final word is only their final shitty word. That's not. That's not the. I don't have to keep making their final shitty word true. I can. I can pick a different. A different thing to. To uphold and a different thing to operate from.
- [47:22]
Kim France
I feel like we've been talking about this the whole time. But Moon, I am just so overwhelmed by your ability to deal with what could just be a big ball of anger for the rest of your life.
- [47:32]
Moon Zappa
I'm not satisfied just leaving something in a giant form. I was the one that always did untangle the Christmas lights or the necklaces in the jewelry box. I just have a kind of tenacity to just see something through. I just. And I. And I'm hardwired to say, love gets to win. Reason plus feelings get to live together. And I don't know why. That's just how I'm wired. I just. I came in with a moral compass that I have a little crush on myself about. And I just. I know that everybody thinks they're right, but I think I'm extra right because in my version, everyone gets to. How is that a bad thing?
- [48:15]
Kim France
No, I was just gonna say as a little sidebar, I have a necklace tangle so bad that there's a ring. There's a ring tangled up with the necklaces. And anytime you want to come to Brooklyn and detangle it for me, honestly.
- [48:28]
Moon Zappa
I have a kind of OCD where you're describing that. Like, when people are like, please come and help me clean out my hoarder house. I'm like, I'll give me the address. I don't know why. I just. There's something satisfying about getting to the bottom of everything and the foundation and cleaning the whole thing up. And I just. I've always had a fascination with what happens if you sort it all out, what happens if you, like, really look at it. I don't know. It's just. It's something that's always been interesting to me.
- [49:00]
Jen Romolini
What do you still want to do?
- [49:02]
Moon Zappa
Well, I think I'd like to keep writing, but I think it's going to be scary to write the next thing I write, because it's really going to be the stuff I'm actually thinking about. Because I'd like to write fiction. I mean, I'll write some essays, too, I think, but I think I'd like to give fiction a try again and really try to talk about what I observe in the world through the lens of fiction. I think that'd be a lot of fun.
- [49:28]
Jen Romolini
Get away from the excavation.
- [49:30]
Moon Zappa
Exactly. Exactly. Or sneak it in. Sneak it in through a werewolf or something. But how about you? What are you gonna do? What are you thinking about doing?
- [49:42]
Jen Romolini
Well, weirdly, I just wrote a memoir, and I am working on a novel, so. Yes.
- [49:47]
Kim France
Wait, she wrote a memoir, by the way. She wrote a memoir. She's being modest about childhood trauma also.
- [49:53]
Moon Zappa
Oh, my gosh, Jen, what's it called?
- [49:55]
Jen Romolini
It's called Ambition Monster. I'm Blushing.
- [49:59]
Moon Zappa
Amazing. I wanna read it. I love memoirs and I love memoirs about people who've been through a difficult thing and are on the other side of it or just trying to get them. Get themselves through it. That's amazing.
- [50:08]
Jen Romolini
I channeled all my trauma into ambition.
- [50:11]
Moon Zappa
Amazing.
- [50:12]
Jen Romolini
Yeah. People do it in different ways, but that's what I did.
- [50:15]
Moon Zappa
Right? I did. I channeled into not wanting.
- [50:18]
Jen Romolini
Okay, yes, it's a totally different thing, but yes, I have that same itch of like, oh, I have a lot of stories to tell and I don't want to tell them about real people anymore. Like, I can't. It's just. It. It's too tangled in your mind and you're trying to protect people. Whether you're trying to protect a legacy or protect a real life person. I just don't want to go through it again because it was really painful the first time. It was really painful. It sucked.
- [50:46]
Moon Zappa
Right?
- [50:46]
Jen Romolini
Trying to be responsible. Really be responsible and fair and loving and loving and. And kind of sides while you're also writing yourself as a character in a book is just like a mind I really wouldn't wish on almost anyone.
- [51:02]
Moon Zappa
Exactly. I know. I totally agree. I would be a good book doula at this point. If somebody dares to write something, I will help you if you really want to do it. But it's just. It. Because it's so difficult. But yeah, I appreciate that you understand the desire to then write fiction because there's something about actually getting to end a workday instead of having it just loop and loop and loop in your head. Better to have your creativity looping rather than a circumstance. Or, or what should I.
- [51:29]
Jen Romolini
Could I cut? And what should I cut? And what's enough. What's enough to prove that I was abused? What's. What's enough to like, make my point here, that this was shitty? You know, like, it's. But it's. It's just, it's. I wouldn't. I wouldn't want to go through those calculations again.
- [51:47]
Moon Zappa
I know. And that in and of itself, this idea that, that, that if you come from trauma, that you're. That you still are trying to say, but. But see me, I. Yes, this is what I meant. Whose fault was it really? If I take all the responsibility now, can it be nice around it? Like, it's just there's so many. And it's so frustrating that people that have a harder load have to do twice the healing. It's so. That is like such an unfair formula.
- [52:16]
Jen Romolini
I'm so.
- [52:16]
Moon Zappa
I'm so Angry about it. And the kinds of things I think about are like, how come we don't see Sisyphus getting over that hill? Where's that image? Where is the image? Like, why do we have to keep doing the version where it just keeps rolling back down? No, let's have some new mirror neuron, amazing things to just get us through. And if we're gonna have magical thinking, let's be on our own sides about it and cheerlead for ourselves.
- [52:44]
Jen Romolini
How do you feel about getting older? Because sometimes there's something. People who come from chaotic homes, you often feel emotionally stunted. I don't feel like I came into my own. I mean, I'm 51. I think it's like the last two years, maybe, right? And I'm just like, oh, more time, more time. I just. I. I want more time now, and I want to learn more about my. I want to. I want to live more peacefully for longer now, you know?
- [53:09]
Moon Zappa
That's exactly it. That is exactly it. This is. But what I think about every single day is my relationship to time, the remaining time, how to do it well, please, can I have more of it? Please let me have a chance to start my life. I feel like it didn't even ever begin.
- [53:26]
Jen Romolini
Yes.
- [53:27]
Moon Zappa
Because none of this would be anything I would have chosen if it were up to me. And it's so hard to every day to just climb Mean Voice mountain and say, no, I'm gonna still try. Try to do again. The hardest thing is trying to figure out what I. What I even want to do. I'm. I know that I have the willingness to just have my own back, but to. To. What is worth wanting? What is.
- [53:55]
Jen Romolini
Yes.
- [53:56]
Kim France
Yeah.
- [53:56]
Moon Zappa
Yes. What is worth wanting when you value time? I don't want to make a mistake with the thing I'm gonna put my energy into.
- [54:03]
Sleep Number Ad
Right.
- [54:03]
Jen Romolini
That's what's gonna be hollow. What's gonna feel. What accomplishment is gonna feel hollow? And what is this just about my ego? Like, what do I actually want of this last, you know, third? Let's say. Let's just call it a third, because I'm hoping that I still. That there's still a full third left. You know? I think about that all the time because it's like, do you go live in a yurt or do you. You know, Or. Because I have friends who have just been like, I. I'm. I'm. I'm yurt town. I'm gonna live, you know, off the land. This world feels so dark, but that doesn't feel right. To me to disengage in that way. How does it feel for you?
- [54:43]
Moon Zappa
Go ahead, Kim. I want to hear. And I'll answer.
- [54:46]
Kim France
Well, no, I was. I can't remember. I'm sorry. Well, I'm 60 and I forget shit all the time.
- [54:54]
Moon Zappa
Did you. Have you written a memoir and are now turning to fiction?
- [54:58]
Kim France
I signed a contract to write a memoir, and I returned my book advance.
- [55:03]
Moon Zappa
What. What stopped you? What happened besides sanity?
- [55:09]
Kim France
I don't know. I think there were parts of the book I just couldn't write, and I started worrying that I was sharing more than I wanted to. Although now I've shared pretty much all of that shit on my substack. I just. I didn't want. I didn't want to write it. I don't think I even wanted to write it when I signed the contract. I just think I felt like this is the thing I need to do now.
- [55:35]
Moon Zappa
Yeah. I think I'm still operating from the Cameron Crowe model, where if you finally write it just as it happened, all doors open and you're rewarded for your honesty and your sincerity and your vulnerability. And so. And no one is playing by the same rules.
- [56:00]
Jen Romolini
No, no, that's not. That's not how it works. It's really a fine. How do you do when it comes out?
- [56:05]
Moon Zappa
I mean, how many times do you see somebody at a dog park that says, clearly, dogs on leashes, and they're like, I made a choice today and the rules don't apply, or they go through a red light, or you're like, what? No one is doing the rules we set in place and whatever. I could go.
- [56:23]
Jen Romolini
But it's also not a meritocracy either. Right? And that's the thing you really learn. You're like, oh, this isn't. You know, I don't know. I. This isn't doing what maybe I thought it would do, or it's doing something different. And now I don't know where to. Because when you work on a project for that long, it's like, where. Where. What do I do now? You know, like. Right. That's the whole thing. And it's also hard to start something when you were in the middle of something for so long.
- [56:47]
Moon Zappa
Absolutely, absolutely. And also just. Yeah. If there are no rules, then the thing I was always struggling with when I would watch my father, to me, he always answered to his own calling and amused himself, which to me seemed so masturbatory. So I always. When I would do stand up, for example, I would think, what does the audience want to See, as if I could mind reading and accommodate. And the same thing with. When I started teaching yoga, I stopped immediately because I thought, if I have somebody that's got a back injury, who's a beginner, who's pregnant, who's not flexible, what class is that? I didn't have the ability to do that. I could do it for a dinner party. Oh, you're gluten free. Oh, you. I know how to do it that way. That's easy. A bowl of fruit, some vegan cheese. Like I can accommodate things that are, that are not harmonious in those kinds of settings. And I can, I can do that, I think, with, with writing. But. But again, it's just that idea of pleasing myself, I think. Like, I think, what if I just was selfish for. I mean, I'm calling it selfish. What if I just thought of myself for a year? If I put myself first for a year? I think that would be a fun experiment. But maybe, maybe not. Not. Would that be interesting to read about? I don't know. I think a lot of people would like to also do that. So I guess, I don't know. I'm just trying to figure out do I want to please myself or do I want to give something that I'm seeing is missing in the world that needs a little bit of a scoot over the, over the hump.
- [58:22]
Jen Romolini
Yeah. And like, can it maybe be light and airy next time instead of being like, harrowing all the time?
- [58:31]
Moon Zappa
That's so true. Because I think that's the Valley girl dilemma that I had. I thought, am I allowed to be light hearted? Am I allowed to be cheerful? Am I allowed to not be crying all the time? Am I allowed to. I mean, for all the horror of the Spanish Inquisition, for the time that they weren't invading the village, it must have just been quiet. You didn't, you were just doing the stuff that you had to get done. So I think I am heading in the off grid yurt direction. But maybe it's just for a rest. Maybe it's not for forever. Maybe it's just a little reset. I don't know.
- [59:08]
Jen Romolini
I mean, we'll all, we'll all feel something different in a couple of weeks, so.
- [59:13]
Moon Zappa
I know it's so stressful. Who's sleeping now? Who's sleeping now?
- [59:16]
Kim France
I know.
- [59:16]
Jen Romolini
I don't even know where to turn. I don't even know where to look for information. I'm just like, everything feels in some way tainted. I don't even know what to look at, what to read. Who to follow, who to believe, who to believe.
- [59:34]
Kim France
Like, usually I'll find, like, one or two people who know, you know, politics, writers, who I. Who I'm like, okay, I trust this guy. I trust this woman. I'm gonna, like, read this person and know what's going on. And I don't feel that way right now.
- [59:47]
Moon Zappa
Right. And we now know everyone's gonna say whatever they need to say in order to get to the next place. I mean, it's just. It's just awful. It's just awful. It's just. Just. It's just awful.
- [59:55]
Jen Romolini
It's. It's really. It's a tough time. It's a tough time.
- [59:58]
Moon Zappa
Luckily, luckily, we're all learning it in real time together. And so no one is an authority. So that's nice. Anybody could have the solution like anybody else. And it happened in the standup world. First, it started with the stage. Then. And then people started just doing it in a coffee house where they're just. Then there was. There was no stage. And then they. They didn't even memorize anything. Just wrote a notebook in. Like, it just kept getting more and more of the people. And. And so I think that we are. Yeah, we're just figuring it out in. In real time. It really does feel like. Like a weird playground.
- [60:34]
Jen Romolini
It feels like a. A massive vibe shift. And from a. From a life that we understood well into something very new to me.
- [60:45]
Kim France
Oh, because it's fascism. It is new for us.
- [60:47]
Jen Romolini
No. But also, just the way things are distributed, the TikTok of it all, like, it just feels very different. You know, I was trying to talk to my kid today on the car ride to school about why the election is important. You know, Like, I really. My kid was like, he's not going to win. And I was like, well, what is telling you that? And they said, TikTok. And I was like, okay, maybe TikTok's right. I don't know.
- [61:14]
Moon Zappa
That would be amazing.
- [61:15]
Jen Romolini
Maybe TikTok knows something.
- [61:17]
Moon Zappa
I don't know. All the things crossed. Yes.
- [61:20]
Jen Romolini
Anyway, everybody should go out and buy your book. Earth to Moon is really, really.
- [61:24]
Moon Zappa
And yours.
- [61:27]
Jen Romolini
Definitely, definitely. I hope that they have already. Thank you so much for talking to us.
- [61:33]
Moon Zappa
Thank you so much.
- [61:34]
Jen Romolini
Pleasure.
- [61:35]
Kim France
Yeah, this has been great.
- [61:36]
Moon Zappa
Thank you so much. We're going to solve it together.
- [61:40]
Jen Romolini
Thanks for listening to Everything is Fine. We're your hosts. I'm Jen Romolini.
- [61:44]
Kim France
And I'm Kim France.
- [61:46]
Jen Romolini
If you like the show, please rate and review it across the platforms. It really helps people find the show. It makes a difference. If you want to support the production of the show, you can join our patreon@patreon.com everythingisfine. It's $3 a month. It helps us pay our editor. If you want to find Kim, you can find Kim on her substack kimfrance.substack.com if you want to find me, you can find me at jenrelmelini.substack.com the show is mixed and edited by the wonderful Natalie Rivera. Thank you, Natalie, and we'll be back next week.
- [62:25]
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