A (2:11)

I thought you said I found out I was gay officially because I was.

B (2:14)

Like, you know, after all the years, all the dicks. Dick sticks. Just not sure.

A (2:22)

One more, One more. Let me try one more.

B (2:23)

Yeah, maybe I decided and now. Now with. Now I'm like, yep, this one's sticking. I'm definite gay.

A (2:35)

Okay. But I can. I can't imagine really what that whole experience would be like. And I've heard so many different people say, like, oh, I knew when I was really young. Like, I knew when I was in kindergarten or something like that. Did you know when you were really young, like, that you were gay? I mean, maybe not that word. Like, maybe you didn't realize it was that. But did you know you were attracted to boys?

B (3:01)

No. Even though I was, like. And as a little boy, I always identified more, like, with girly things and. But I just. As I got older, I sort of grew out of a lot of that. Like, when you stopped playing with toys, who cares if you like to play with Barbies? Because. You know what I mean? So. Or dress up.

A (3:26)

Give me the Barbies.

B (3:28)

Yeah. Like a house. I was like, I want to be the mom. But so it wasn't like. So that was obviously, like. I. I identified more, you know, like, on. With my feminine side.

A (3:43)

Okay.

B (3:45)

But I didn't realize that I was attracted. I thought that, like, experimentation and stuff. A lot of little kids have little things here or there with their friends. Like, I'll show you mine if you show me yours type situation. I just thought that was curiosity. I didn't think it was anything to do with sexual desire. But it's important to note that I grew up very, very religious, so I didn't have space in my mind to even think it was a possibility to be gay.

A (4:17)

Okay.

B (4:17)

And also, being gay was bad. When I was a kid. Like, there was a house in our neighborhood that was, like, always really decorated. They really went all out for Christmas or Halloween and all these things. And I didn't know these people. What I did know is my parents, who have since changed but would say, like, be careful when you walk by that house. They're gay. Like, it was something to be afraid of. Those people, they were so lost. So I didn't know in my childhood at all. Even though in hindsight I can be like, okay, I didn't know I was gay, but there were signs.

A (4:53)

But there was. But mom should have.

B (4:55)

Yeah, mom sure should.

A (4:58)

So when did you start to maybe realize then that, like, you were gay or that you were having attraction? Was it high school? Was it middle school? Was it. Not until, like, college years. Like, when was that?

B (5:12)

I felt I. It was late, like, after I was, like, 19 years old, when I really started to feel that kind of attraction. Before that, I just. The thing is, I love women.

A (5:32)

Okay?

B (5:32)

Yeah. So. So before that, I liked women, and so I had, like, some girl crushes, but it was all, you know, everything you see, all the shows I watched on tv, all of my friends. It's like, the guys get with these girls, and you're, like, cute couples and that. And I liked that. I liked the attention. I liked when, like, we were in youth group because I was homeschooled my whole life. But the church I went to, had the youth group, had like 200 kids in it. So it was a big. Still a lot of social interaction. So, like, coupling up and stuff at 16, 17 was fun, but I really didn't have any sexual attraction towards any girl like that. And I thought I was nervous. I was planning to save sex till marriage because of the church I was at, all the stuff. So plans definitely went awry there, but. So, yeah, I didn't really know. But when I turned 19, I got a job at this restaurant. It was the. The. It was the first place I. In Ohio at the time. It might be like this all over the country, but you couldn't drink till you were 21, but you could serve alcohol when you turned 19. So I stopped working at Bob Evans that didn't serve alcohol because I want to make more money. And I got a job at this place. And they said, let's go to this gay bar. And I was like, oh, my God. I was like, I don't know what that's going to be like. But there was part of me that was really excited about it in hindsight. And so they took me. It was called Celebrities. And it was, you know, this is. I'm just turned 40, and so this is 21 years ago. And Celebrities closed a few years after we went.

A (7:06)

Okay.

B (7:06)

But it was like, you know, a gay bar that had been around for 15 years before that, so since like the early 90s. So.

A (7:14)

So was this a dive?

B (7:16)

So it was like just. It's sort of. It felt like a disco.

A (7:19)

Okay.

B (7:19)

And anyways, this guy who was my age, so also not drinking, but old enough to be in the bar, was like, oh, my God, you're so cute. And started giving me attention. And obviously immediately was like, I'm straight. But I loved the attention. Like, I felt really. It felt really good.

A (7:38)

Okay.

B (7:39)

So I think that was the first moment where I was like, but we can be friends. And probably deep down in the back of, like, there was a piece of me that was like, I'm finally gonna get to be who I am. You know what I mean?

A (7:53)

So was it. It was in the back of your mind maybe a little bit, or. No, it was still like more of a subconscious thing.

B (7:59)

It was total. I didn't have any thought, any fear, any question like, what if I'm gay? That was just not present.

A (8:09)

So. But when did that start? Like, okay, so you go to Celebrities. That kind of started. So then what happens? Like, are you. At what point do you realize, like.

B (8:17)

Well, so the problem is, I Started doubling down on not being gay because I. Because you like friends with a gay person. I started going like we went to celebrities, so I was wearing. And then a new gay bar opened in my town club called Mask. And everyone really did go there because it was a really cool club. So a lot of straight people went there, but it was still fully gay club. And so me and my friends would go there. And so because of being in those spaces, I was even more building the narrative that I was not gay, that I was straight and. And then I was.

A (8:50)

So in those spaces you're building the narrative. So you're in the space and you're like, no, I'm not gay.

B (8:55)

Yeah.

A (8:56)

Okay.

B (8:56)

It's like really a mind fucking.

A (8:58)

It really kind of does sound like.

B (8:59)

It because you're like, I love this, but this can't be who I am. And so you find excuses in ways that it works. Like I just love everybody as friends and. And the music's great and people are friendly here at straight clubs. People are. You know what I mean? Like you just start telling stories and stories. So even though I was in more gay spaces, which felt really good, I was having to say more than ever that I wasn't gay. So it started this. Like I think I. And I think internally that's when I started having little feelings. Like I. I'm sure I was seeing guys and feeling attracted to them and. But it's like I had to keep up this Persona of being straight. So it was really weird. So that went on for a few years. So probably around my.

A (9:48)

Don't skip over that.

B (9:49)

Okay.

A (9:50)

So he's. And that goes on for a few years. Well, what, you're 19. Like people at this point having sex. You're not.

B (9:58)

Nope.

A (9:58)

Did you ever have sex with a girl?

B (10:00)

One time. That doesn't really count. It was a. It was with a friend, like. Cuz I had a girlfriend and. But we never slept together, made out and stuff and stuff. But I had a friend and it, it was a few years later, I think I was probably 22 or 23.

A (10:20)

Okay.

B (10:20)

And it was one of those. Like we drank a whole bunch and one thing led to another and it's like. And were you finally like, am I in? Like, what's that?

A (10:33)

You're like, I don't know how I feel about this.

B (10:35)

But it was very like, Like I was like, that's really too. When I was like, what am I doing?

A (10:42)

So that was my question. So after that, were you like, I don't know. That wasn't what everybody says it's supposed to be.

B (10:50)

Yeah. But that was complicated too, because it was a friend. So I was like, maybe I just feel bad because it complicated our friendship. It took me a long time to let go of, to, to just accept that I was gay.

A (11:06)

Okay, so 19, you're at the gay bars, doubling down. You're not gay. That goes on for several years.

B (11:13)

Several.

A (11:14)

And you're, you're in your mind. You're still. You're not gay.

B (11:16)

It. Well, okay, it goes. So I turned 21. We were at the gay bar. I never drank before I was 20, so 21. So adding alcohol, I still, when I drank, I wasn't like getting trashed all the time, but I was started drinking because it was fun. It was something I never did before. And I was like, wow. And then I met someone randomly. My. We're friends now, but Todrick was on tour of the Beauty and the Beast Broadway tour. It was exciting for him. I didn't know him before meeting him, but that was his first Broadway gig.

A (11:57)

Okay.

B (11:58)

And that's what he got, his Equity card and all that. And he was like. So people were infatuated with him because he was like in town as one of the performers and he just really would light up a room. And some people felt the same about me. And so we were like, kind of started just talking, like, oh, like you would talk to any stranger at a bar. And we ended up going to get food after and just had a really, like, really connected. And he was in Dayton for two weeks. And in those two weeks, I went through an emotional roller coaster. And I did get drunk one night and he drove my car back. And he was. Because I, I. It would have not been good for me to drive. And we went to his. Not just he and I, like, he, me and him and our friend Shay went to his hotel.

A (13:02)

Okay.

B (13:02)

And just like to go to sleep. But we kissed. And it was the thing where the next day, because I had been drinking, I didn't even read immediately think of it. And I, like, leave. And I was like, oh, my gosh, I drank so much last night. And then all of a sudden I remembered the kiss and I was like. And I was like, Donald. And it was this sense of, you're slipping. You're letting go of control of your identity, of what people know about you, of what people think about you. And I literally, then at the end of his trip was like, I think that just happened because I like, made a story of I didn't get enough male attention in My life. So he was a. So I said, I think that because you're gay and you. And I liked the attention I was getting from you. I didn't kiss you because I wanted to kiss you. I think I kissed you because I wanted to. To show up for you in a way that would be meaningful. I totally gaslit him because the truth is, I wanted to kiss him, but I'm like, no, that wasn't for me. I just did that because I'm insecure.

A (14:16)

And so if you want to know, Donald will just make out with you if you need it.

B (14:20)

Yeah, I'll meet you where you're at. So. So that was the first. That's when I was like. And then he left and he had a tour and.

A (14:32)

Wait, I have to ask, what was his response? That. Because I don't really know what Todrick's coming out story was or like. So was he just like, all right, cool, bro, or was he like, call me in a week when you.

B (14:43)

He was really nice about that because I think he wanted us to stay. He. He had feelings for me, and I obviously had feelings for him.

A (14:53)

Guys ever talk about it? Just looking back, was he like, no, man. I knew you were gay, but I was just giving you your space to figure it out.

B (14:59)

Yeah. So this story continues. So he left Dayton. And I felt like in the movies when, like the. The, you know, the person's at the train station, the train's going, and they just want to run along the train. I literally. It felt such a connection. And I think it's because it was the first time that I let myself fall into that.

A (15:23)

Okay.

B (15:24)

And also, this is really complicated. And I. I'm not saying this is right, but just to be. Keep it 100. I had a girlfriend at the time, and I love, loved her. I love her. She was just in the wrong. She was playing the wrong role in my life. And I didn't want that to be her role. I wanted it to be real. I had such strong feelings for her, but it was just like. Like, I have strong feelings for you.

A (15:49)

Right.

B (15:49)

You know what I mean? So anyways, I had convinced myself that that was a drunken moment where I like getting male attention because I missed it from. As a child and then because he is gay. That's why I showed up that way. But it was for him, not me. And that was not going to happen again anyways. All I could think about was him when he left. And we actually talked a lot. Like every night on the phone. He would finish his show and whatever city he's in. And they were going to Hershey, Pennsylvania, like two and a half months or so after that, maybe three months after. And he was like, you should come. And I was like, I'll come.

A (16:31)

And he say, less, I'm already ready.

B (16:35)

Yeah. And he was like, oh. And I literally borrowed acquaintance's car because it was like an, I think it was a nine hour drive and I had never driven. I didn't think my car would be good to drive that far.

A (16:51)

Okay.

B (16:52)

And you know, it was. This is 2007. So I burned a couple good CDs for the road trip. And I totally, as a friend, quote, drove to see him. But I also lied. And this is the thing about, I'm really understanding or empathetic when people like create these stories because they're afraid of just being honest with who they are. And as much as I regret lying, it was me just protecting myself.

A (17:24)

Yeah.

B (17:25)

In that way. But I told people that I was going, that I, I was also at this time in my life, part of this talent agency. And I told someone I met someone at a thing with his talent agency. And I'm so embarrassed to admit this. Someone had like passed and I was going to the service. That's why I had to drive that far.

A (17:51)

Oh my God.

B (17:52)

I know. Because I was.

A (17:54)

Wait a minute, you didn't even tell. First of all, we're re recording this episode audio didn't record last time we did this. So I'm kind of glad that was the universe.

B (18:02)

It was like, you ain't gonna give just a little bread. Yeah.

A (18:05)

First of all, I was like, we got all the emotional stuff last time, but I didn't get any of the.

B (18:08)

The dirt.

A (18:09)

The dirt.

B (18:10)

Yeah.

A (18:10)

Okay.

B (18:11)

So I told people I was going to a funeral when I was actually going to see Todrick because no one was going to be like, why? Because if I was like, I'm going to anything else for a nine hour drive, borrowing a car. And if I was like, I'm going to meet this guy. Which my, my mom knew who Todrick was because she got him. I mean, he got her free tickets to Beauty and the Beast. Well, like he, he was a friend as far as everyone knew.

A (18:36)

But you didn't feel comfortable saying, I'm going to see my friend.

B (18:39)

Yeah.

A (18:40)

Which is so funny because again, red flag, mom. Seeing the same sex friend, no big deal.

B (18:49)

Right?

A (18:50)

Seeing the opposite sex friend. Usually you're like, oh. But in, but it's funny that in your mind, because he was gay even though he's Still a guy. You're a guy. People know you as straight. You were like, I have to lie.

B (19:03)

Yeah.

A (19:04)

About where I'm going.

B (19:05)

Terrified of people. And I was. And people expected now that I was. I was doubling down on my story.

A (19:11)

Was anybody asking you if you were gay or was anybody, like, questioning. Talking about.

B (19:15)

So my friends all defended me. Donald is not gay. He's just literally, I mean, what I.

A (19:24)

Listen, that's what you do for your friends until they say otherwise. That is their. That is their story and their truth to find on their own.

B (19:30)

So, yeah. So anyways, drive to Hershey. But so as we're going, you know, so his tour set up everything for the. Like, their rooms and stuff. And he was like. He was like, do you want me to ask them for two beds? Like, I always get one bed because he got his own room. But he was like, do you want me to ask for two beds? I was like, no. I mean, it doesn't matter. It's okay. You don't have to go out of your way. It's like, obviously gay as hell, like, wanting to sleep in the same bed as him.

A (20:00)

Right. He's offering you to have a second bed in the room. No big deal.

B (20:05)

Yeah.

A (20:05)

That's too much of a hassle. Like, they have to wheel the bed in or something.

B (20:08)

Yeah. And so it ended up being like, obviously. Well, he was like, yeah, I'm sure he was talking to his friends like this straight guy was. Yeah. And so I went. And. And it was really fun. It was. It was really cool. And it. And it was. It was gay. More. I was going to say.

A (20:31)

Over.

B (20:31)

Yeah, no, like, we definitely. You know what I really appreciate about that time, and I. I'm a spiritual person, so I always say, like, I'm thankful because I feel like the universe or God really put me in a lot of safe spaces because I could have driven that far to meet up with someone who I knew for two weeks in a really vulnerable position and sort of pressured to do things I wasn't ready to do. And nothing like that happened. But it was a very sweet. To me, it felt romantic and appropriate, like, in ways that I was comfortable exploring that.

A (21:11)

Okay, so you get there whenever the second kiss happens. Are you like. Or you're still like, I'm just showing up for him?

B (21:24)

I.

A (21:24)

No, I mean, if I.

B (21:26)

Then it turned out, I don't know, like, I have feelings. It sort of turned into. And so it's really not about. It's really about what I was going through at that time. Todrick just happens to be the person at that time in my life.

A (21:40)

I'm just saying. Were you?

B (21:40)

Yeah.

A (21:41)

Like, so that.

B (21:42)

Well, I said to him, it's just, I just have these feelings for you, but I can't be gay.

A (21:48)

Okay, so you're like, you're understanding that now you have feelings for this person. Yes, but I still am not identifying as that.

B (21:56)

Yeah. And we can't be together because he was like, okay, you know, we were young twenties, where you. Where if you have feelings for someone, you're like, this is going to be my person forever. And I was thinking that and feeling that, but I couldn't accept it.

A (22:10)

Got it.

B (22:11)

So I was like, you know, and then. But for years, he. And I kind of had that just. I guess I can speak for myself. For years I really had strong feelings for him and would take trips or go places for extended periods of time to be around him. And it was really difficult because I didn't. I lacked the emotional maturity to understand what I was feeling. So it was all about him in my mind. And so that's, that's when I was like, okay, I'm started to realize I'm. I'm. I would say I'm bi. Or I would say in the religious circle I came from, I would say I have same sex attraction. Because that also is like acknowledging something you feel without making it a declaration of who you are.

A (23:06)

Okay.

B (23:07)

And I wasn't ready at that time to be like, I'm gay.

A (23:09)

So if you were, if you were saying to somebody, I have same sex attraction, what were. What. What would that response be? Well, like with somebody like, boo you gay.

B (23:19)

Well, that's how. What a normal person. But in my church, it would be, well, let's pray for God to heal that. Oh, to take it away.

A (23:27)

Okay.

B (23:28)

Yeah, like, we.

A (23:29)

That's intense.

B (23:30)

Yeah. Like, they didn't say, oh, this person's gay, because they didn't believe anyone was gay.

A (23:35)

Right.

B (23:36)

They would say, everyone, they're struggling. They're struggling with sex attraction because of whatever happened to them, not because they were born that way. It always was because something that happened in their life. Yeah.

A (23:47)

So, okay, so that leads me to another question then. So do you start then searching your mind for, like, what happened to me to make me have same sex attraction?

B (23:55)

Totally. I did. I kind of even made. Made. I didn't make up stories, but my parents had me so young that I was like, you know, I didn't get. I didn't get. Like, my dad wasn't as present for me you know, now I just turned 40. I was thinking of me being born. My dad's 20. He was very present, but he was also still growing.

A (24:24)

Right.

B (24:24)

And so there's just different things. And also now I obviously believe I was born gay. And I think you just. When you have expectation to connect with like a father, son, throwing a ball and doing these things. And when you don't get that, you're like, that's what turned me gay. When you actually didn't get that. Because I don't give a. About throwing a ball.

A (24:42)

Right.

B (24:43)

You know what I mean? Brush this Barbie's goddamn hair with me or keep it moving. Dad.

A (24:51)

It's not how you braid.

B (24:54)

Right. I said French braid.

A (24:57)

Skirt doesn't match.

B (24:58)

What's wrong with you? Jesus. But I did.

A (25:02)

Okay, okay, so now you're dealing. So what age are we still at? 21.

B (25:08)

At this point we're like. That was like 21 to 23. I was sort of wrapped up in. I was lying about my feelings for Todrick, but I had an on and off thing with him and then some other guys in between because, you know, we'd be like, get in a fight and then I would just go out and talk to somebody else and sort of. But it was never. It was. And it was so unhealthy because in my mind it was so like momentary, sort of like. I can't speak to this, but I imagine when someone has an addiction toward to really hard drugs.

A (25:42)

Okay.

B (25:43)

They just need a fix. That's how I was treating these gay experiences. Like a little fix so that then I can get by my ordinary life. And it makes a lot of sense. I even heard being gay is different than being a trans person. But I heard about before. It just makes me think of this before Caitlyn, when. When Brute, when Bruce Jenner before.

A (26:04)

Right.

B (26:05)

Became Caitlyn Jenner.

A (26:06)

Okay.

B (26:06)

I still don't know exactly if I should always refer to that person as Caitlyn now, but would back in the day, like, take trips and dress up like a woman and walk through places just. Just to like, get that right.

A (26:19)

Just to feel it.

B (26:19)

Yeah. And I think that that's what I was experiencing. But still in my church and with my friends and with my family and people closest to me, I couldn't be honest. And so it was a really lonely.

A (26:31)

I was gonna say. So you're keeping this all to yourself. You're hiding it from everybody. You're probably having to lie more.

B (26:36)

Yeah.

A (26:37)

At this point of like, where you're going or who you're with and.

B (26:39)

Yeah.

A (26:40)

And were you still living at home with your parents?

B (26:42)

So I lived at home. The thing about. Early on in that 21 to 23 time frame, I left. I. I did things for several months at a time with Todrick, whether they would be like, show projects, one of his musicals.

A (26:59)

Like, you would work on them.

B (27:00)

Yeah. And that would take me out of. Out of my hometown.

A (27:04)

Okay.

B (27:05)

But then it would. Those times would often end, like, with me not being able to stay because I get too wrapped up emotionally. Because in my mind, it's not about me being gay. It's about this person is just the love of my life. And it's so heavy and confusing at that time. Okay, so.

A (27:27)

So. So we're 23 now. I didn't realize it was this long for you. Yeah, I guess because by the time I met you, you. Well, by the time I met you, I knew you were gay. When I met you.

B (27:40)

Yeah.

A (27:41)

My sister wasn't sure if you were gay. I was like, really?

B (27:46)

You're like, really? Are we talking about the same person?

A (27:48)

I'm pretty sure he is. But you seemed you definitely by the time I met you, which was, I think, like 32. You were about 32 when I met you. You were comfortable in it, so obviously, like, at what point? So 23. So when do you finally go, I'm gay, I'm gay?

B (28:12)

You know, like, being able to say I'm gay really didn't start until my 30s.

A (28:18)

Really?

B (28:19)

Yeah. Like, I would, I would. I would be like, oh, I like him. It's because of how I was programmed and how I was raised. I couldn't.

A (28:26)

You. Right.

B (28:27)

But I. But I did.

A (28:30)

You, like, 20 years without being able to say it. You were like nine or not 2010.

B (28:36)

Yeah. Without saying I'm gay. Like, I came out to my mom when I was. So.

A (28:42)

Okay, I want to get to that.

B (28:44)

Yeah.

A (28:45)

But. But okay. So I guess the question is, is from the time you realized it, how long was it until you told somebody, be it your mom or a friend or whoever, that you realize you're gay?

B (28:58)

I started telling people. I start. I do. I wouldn't talk about it in that way. I would say to my close, some of my close friends, a few of them, like, I like every. Like, I would say things like, if the lights are off, who's going to turn them on to check? Like, I would turn really vulgar. But it's because that felt more acceptable than, like, saying I was gay.

A (29:20)

Okay.

B (29:21)

And so. Or being like, I. I like everybody. I'm equal opportunity, I would start saying things like that. Which also was not true.

A (29:29)

Right.

B (29:30)

And it still was also causing pain because there were some females in my life that I would lead on just because I wanted. I couldn't let go of. I couldn't accept the fact that I was not going to be with a woman.

A (29:46)

Right.

B (29:47)

Which is crazy now. So it was around 23, 24 years old. I probably started opening up some friends about it. But if someone would ask if I was gay, I would never say yes. I'd be like, oh, you know, it's weird. I. I, in my mind at the time, just. I just couldn't say I was gay.

A (30:12)

So you would just sort of avoid the question or you would just.

B (30:14)

I think I would always talk about a circumstance. I'd be like. I don't think I'd say I'm bi, but I'd be like, well, it depends on who's asking. You know what I mean?

A (30:24)

Like a joke.

B (30:25)

Exactly.

A (30:25)

So where nobody would really quite be able to tell. Is he just being funny?

B (30:29)

Kind of like. Yeah. And people could kind of tell too. It's like, okay, he's not about to actually have a conversation about that.

A (30:35)

Okay, so shut it down.

B (30:37)

Yeah, Playfully shut it down.

A (30:39)

So five years already.

B (30:41)

Yeah.

A (30:41)

That you're having all the feelings but are not willing to accept the feelings.

B (30:48)

Yeah.

A (30:49)

So was there like a moment or a person. I don't know, was it Todrick or somebody that made you go just like, realize, like, okay, this is me and I'm gonna have to start accepting it?

B (30:57)

Well, I think Todrick was the start of it. And then as things started happening more, I just started realizing, like, I'm constantly drawn to this. So then I told myself, when I move, I'll be able to. And I didn't mean out of my parents. I meant out of Ohio. I can be honest with every. All of these people I love because I'll be far enough away that. Because I didn't know how I could live in the space with people who, A, had religious and spiritual beliefs against being gay and B, I'd been lying to.

A (31:33)

Right.

B (31:34)

And they over and they defended me.

A (31:37)

Right.

B (31:37)

I mean, my cousin Sarah, she came to my birthday party. She.

A (31:41)

She was like, sarah's the makeup artist.

B (31:43)

She. No, that's Maggie. I'll show you a picture. Yeah. A lot of people were at that party, so they. But Sarah got me my first job at Bob Evans, and some guy actually, like, wrote me a note and said I was cute and stuff, and it made me very uncomfortable. Because I was just 16 at that time and I in no way had accepted that. And it felt like when you're a kid, like when I was little and someone would be like, are you a girl or a boy? Like I felt so identity.

A (32:12)

People would ask you that when you were young.

B (32:14)

It's probably because, you know, I was limp wristed and like high voiced and doing some kind of dance in a dress. Yeah. I don't know what could have confused anyone but like full contour beat face. But she literally punched him in the face. My family, there's some scrappers.

A (32:34)

Okay. I'm here for it.

B (32:36)

Yeah. And so she literally walked up and popped him in the face and said, you don't talk to my cousin like that. Because I was so. We were. It was so. It was like, how am I going to come out to a world of people who have defended me this way?

A (32:47)

Okay.

B (32:48)

So that's what I told myself.

A (32:50)

So you knew you wanted to move out of Ohio, obviously.

B (32:52)

Yes.

A (32:53)

And was any of that feeling of wanting to move out of Ohio because of everything you were experiencing or you just obviously wanted? I mean, it's Ohio. No offense to Ohio. We're running raised. But offensive.

B (33:03)

Yeah. I think I wanted to move because I liked the idea of like being in a bigger city and stuff, even though I hadn't really traveled much before that. But also I think subconsciously, like the part of me that I wasn't really letting speak or make decisions was like, let me go someplace where I can.

A (33:24)

So you decided to go to Nashville, to the Bible Belt.

B (33:26)

So, yeah. Great decision.

A (33:29)

Story gets better by the minute. Okay.

B (33:31)

Yeah. So I. So anyways, I todrick thing kind of fizzled out. Like I said, we're still friends. So now today. So it fizzled out in a way. It's like I started having other experiences with other people or feelings or crushes. And it was like, okay, this is me. Not just something that he, like, I.

A (33:53)

Have that he triggered.

B (33:54)

Exactly.

A (33:55)

Okay.

B (33:55)

And I started to know, but like not share. And it was just a lot of lying.

A (34:02)

Okay.

B (34:03)

And when I got the opportunity to go on a tour with my brother's band, Anthem Lights, they're a Christian band. And the tour was in a lot of churches, a couple like high school football fields and we had one arena, but all the other places were like these big churches. And that's the first time I came out to a family member. I talked to my brother because.

A (34:34)

So your brother was the first one to know.

B (34:36)

I think he was the first family immediate family member. To know.

A (34:39)

Okay.

B (34:40)

Because I was like, I can't go on this tour because I was going on as a guest singer with his band and I was like, if this comes out somehow or, you know, like, whatever, he. I don't want him to be blindsided.

A (34:56)

Right.

B (34:57)

So I took him to sushi and I was like. Like, we were just, you know, shooting the. Eating sushi and I was like, I want to talk to you about something. I was like, okay. And so it got really emotional and it's. You know when you have years of lying and hiding and being a secret and then you start to let that come out. The physical feeling you have, it's like you can't speak. I mean, that's how you feel. Like, right? I've always wanted to say it's like, oh, my God. And. But I finally got it out. We're both crying.

A (35:29)

So you're sitting at sushi at Sushi.

B (35:31)

In the middle of this half off sushi place in, in Dayton, Ohio. It's like, how fresh can this half off sushi be? But. And it was just a really beautiful conversation. He told me he loved me and he couldn't imagine how hard that would be and he really appreciated me telling him. And, and did you do the tour? I did the tour.

A (35:53)

Okay. And he was okay with it? He wasn't like, yes, but we didn't.

B (35:57)

I didn't tell anyone else I wasn't out.

A (35:59)

Right.

B (36:00)

I just told him.

A (36:00)

You just told him, like, which, God.

B (36:02)

Forbid, a closeted Christian music artist, like, trust me, the industry is flooded with them.

A (36:09)

Just outed everybody.

B (36:10)

Yeah, I got a list.

A (36:12)

If you're doubting it, reach out to your friends. I've smacked my face on this microphone three times and we don't have our headphones. Headphones maybe keep me further back from it, but now that I'm not tied to the headphones, I'm like, so funny. Okay. So.

B (36:32)

So I came out.

A (36:32)

Some friends know now your brother knows, but you're still not comfortable.

B (36:38)

Well, and you know, the, the another note, like when I came back from one of my trips early on that I went to with Todrick, I went to a church. And I was actually employed at this church as the worship leader and the pastor at the time, who, who's my friend also is gay, but was closeted female. She was, she was not out.

A (37:01)

Okay.

B (37:01)

And I didn't know she was gay because. And it's so weird. You'd think like Game would recognize game, but we were both just like lying to ourselves and everybody else and each other. And we could have been there to support each other, but it just wasn't in the realm of possibility for us. And she sat me down and she started sobbing, like, almost shaking, telling me that after I went on that trip, I was acting more gay and the way I was walking was different. And I know it's terrible, but, but, but hear me out. It was very, very painful for me to hear, but she was crying and shaking while she was saying it. And what that was was her, of course, seeing like someone else who's in the same position of her starting to loosen the reins, starting to lose control of. Of the narrative. Of what? Of everything being okay. And we're the two most visible people in the church. She was giving the sermons, I was leading the worship. I mean, we. Obviously there's worship teams, other people on stage, but I was like, I'm not gay. I'm not gay. Like, it's okay. So it was just so layered.

A (38:08)

Was she asking you if you were gay or was she like, warning you.

B (38:11)

Like, you can't be gay. You can't be gay. You just can't. We can't have a gay worship leader. You can't. That's what she was saying.

A (38:17)

And really, she was just saying it about herself.

B (38:19)

Totally.

A (38:19)

Obviously.

B (38:20)

Totally.

A (38:21)

Yeah. Okay.

B (38:22)

And we're very good friends now. Like, yes. Like family and. And neither of us work in the church currently. So anyway, so, okay, so.

A (38:33)

You moved in at. You're in Nashville at this point.

B (38:36)

So when I did that tour with my brother, it was in 2013. I. It was the end of 2012, beginning of 2013, that's when I moved to Nashville. It was based out of Nashville. And I was like, I, I'm ready for a move. And I just, just leap of faith. I literally didn't even have a thousand dollars to my name. I found I had a friend who was like, you can sleep on my couch until you find a place. I stayed with her for like three weeks. And then someone else needed a roommate back our. Our rent. Like, my portion of it was like 420amonth.

A (39:10)

Oh, I know. When I lived in St. Louis, I literally paid like 300 for like.

B (39:14)

And I was like, I hope I can do it.

A (39:16)

My half of a two bedroom.

B (39:17)

Right.

A (39:18)

When I moved to LA and paid 600 for a studio and was like, I'm not gonna be able to live.

B (39:22)

Exactly.

A (39:23)

But okay, yeah.

B (39:26)

So I was in Nashville and I started. I was no longer working at the church of the story I just told, but I was singing at A much larger church. I wasn't the worship leader, but they paid us to sing. And they had five services a weekend. And they still had me come back from Nashville to Ohio to sing every once in a while. And I was driving back one weekend to sing. So this is early part of 2013. And I was how old? So I would have been, like, 27. I would have turned 28 that year.

A (40:05)

Okay.

B (40:05)

So I was 27. And it was in February, actually. I remember because it was the same week the. The nec. The coming week was going to be Valentine's Day. And my. I was driving back to Ohio to sing at the church, and I just felt emotional. And I was like, you said when you moved, you were going to be honest. And I'd opened up to my brother, one of my brothers. I opened up to a lot of my friends. Never used the words I was gay.

A (40:34)

Okay.

B (40:35)

But I would, like, share my feelings. I would share truths about, like, what happened with Todrick because they all knew him as my friend. I was, like, lying about all these different things.

A (40:44)

Yeah.

B (40:45)

So that's when I was like. I went and I. I got in, I think on a Friday. I sang two services on Saturday, three services on Sunday, and by the last service on Sunday, I could barely get through the songs. And I was singing, like, in a microphone, leading. And I was so emotional. I called my mom. I knew I had to tell her.

A (41:09)

You're like. You're like, it's here, it's got. It's boiling. It's overload.

B (41:12)

I couldn't have survived.

A (41:13)

It was time.

B (41:14)

So I went and as she was, like, cooking in the kitchen, and she was the only person there, and I checked to make sure, because I didn't want to have a shared conversation with her because I love her and my dad, but our relationships are different. And I just wanted to have that moment with her. And so I was like. I wanted to talk to you about something. She was like, okay. And I was like. All of a sudden, that same feeling when I was talking to my brother, like, there was a. There was something in my throat. There was an elephant sitting on my chest. I was like. And she was like, you can tell me anything. She could tell. I was really struggling with what trying to say something. And I was like, well, I just want to say before I do, I can't have you respond like, this is my time to share. And I can. I can barely hold my feelings. I don't have room to hold yours.

A (42:12)

So that's pretty impressive to even think to say that.

B (42:15)

Yeah. So. So she just listened. She looked at me, and I could tell with a heartfelt. Was listening. And I was like, you know how I've always had friends with. Been friends with. With gay people? And I mentioned my friend Gina because she came out since we met her, and I mentioned Todrick, and I mentioned some other people. And I was like, well, I always made it, and I'm saying it calmly right now, but I was crying. Of course. I was like, I always have. Have talked about them. Like, I care about them and God loves them, and, like, I stand up for them, but I actually identify with them. Like, that's how I said it. I spoke into the words. I was gay. I didn't. I didn't say I'm gay. And she was like, okay. And I was like, I'm really sorry. I just always wanted to make you proud. But I was like, I realized I can't control these feelings, but I can control being a liar. And I feel like not telling you. Started to feel like lying. And you're the last person that I would want to lie to.

A (43:29)

Oh.

B (43:29)

And she was like, I love you. Nothing would make me not feel. Feel proud of you. And because of the narrative we heard, I said, don't blame dad.

A (43:45)

Why would you say don't blame dad?

B (43:47)

Because I think.

A (43:47)

Because again, the male attention.

B (43:48)

Yeah, male attention. Showing up, not throwing a ball with me, all those silly stories that you're taught in the church world that we grew up in. And. And her initial response was, why? And I said, because it's not his fault, Mom. And she was really struggling. And I said, I'm gonna go. And you were the. I was. So I was like, keeping a force field around you finding out. So I was like, if you need to call your prayer chain and tell them what I've told you, your friends, you can literally talk to anyone. This isn't a secret anymore. I said, and if you feel that it's wrong and that I need to change, talk to God about it, but don't talk to me. Because if I feel that you start to try to manipulate me or change me in our conversations, it will affect our relationship and how close we are.

A (44:49)

Wow.

B (44:50)

And she was like, okay. And I left.

A (44:55)

And then I left.

B (44:56)

I was like, bye. Good luck.

A (44:59)

You can find me at the club.

B (45:00)

Yeah. And I have a go, go dancing shift. So. I'm just kidding. I'm gonna go shake ass. No.

A (45:08)

Okay.

B (45:08)

That's a joke.

A (45:09)

Yeah.

B (45:11)

I always said God never let me have the body I really wanted because he Knew I'd be some, like, a hard, lifelong stripper. I would retire on that box anyway.

A (45:22)

Don't be so sure.

B (45:23)

Yeah.

A (45:26)

But if we have to, it's getting dangerously close this day, Right? Okay. So you have that conversation with your mom.

B (45:37)

Yep.

A (45:39)

First of all, I just want to acknowledge, like, you're talking about, again, almost 10 years from the time you start to have feelings to the time you actually tell your mom and acknowledge it for yourself, kind of. You haven't even fully acknowledged it for yourself. I just think it's so important because, I mean, we're in California, we're in Los Angeles, where it's so accepted everywhere that you just don't even stop to think that people might have. Be going through these struggles. Obviously. I mean, I've. I have had, have had and have so many friends that are a part of the lgbtq. And I know there's. Yes. Other letters that have been added. You know, I was a dancer, so I grew up in the world, so it was never really, like. But I was in Ohio, so it wasn't ever. As a kid. I didn't have. No, we did. There was one. There was a photographer, Monroe, that might, like, that was friends with my dad, so it was just never talked about. But I remember seeing the first time when I got to college, college was the first time I ever saw two guys kiss. Like, I remember walking out of my door and seeing two guys kiss. So I'm just saying it's. It's while. While we're so used to it now. I think for people listening, it's so important to understand how hard this experience could be for somebody. Like, I never realized it was that long for you.

B (46:57)

And it doesn't need to be that hard. Like, we can and I love. And now, like, my mom is so committed to making. Helping people know that there's safe space and helping other parents who are from conservative religious backgrounds know that, like, their beliefs could. You could sort of take a second look, ask yourself, is this real? Like. Or is it doing more damage? Is it worth what's law. Like, what you could lose with your family? And I just want to say, too, after I came out, I started realizing, even sitting here when I was young, like, I. Like, someone was throwing away all these bodybuilding magazines, and I kept them and hid them because of the guys. Like, I have. Okay, so I had attraction. But when you. When you people, like, when you grow up in the type of borderline cult religious background that I grew up in, there was no room for me to actually Think, am I gay?

A (47:52)

Right.

B (47:52)

It was just this like wild instinctual attraction that I would turn my mind off to when it wasn't happening.

A (47:59)

Yeah. What I was going to say about that was it's so interesting to me though that you would hide it because a boy looking at a bodybuilding magazine isn't a big deal. Because that's like, I just like. Right. Like women looking at fitness magazines like that. But to you, because you weren't looking at it, thinking, I want to be a bodybuilder. Like you knew in your mind that it needed to be hidden. Yeah, but it's like if your parents would have found a bodybuilding magazine, they probably wouldn't thought twice about it. Right. Like they find a Playboy, they're going to be upset.

B (48:31)

Yeah.

A (48:31)

But they're not going to think, my son has a bodybuilding magazine. That's a problem.

B (48:35)

Well, I learned about correcting my behavior very young because I wanted to play dress up and boys don't do that. That or I wanted to play with Barbies and they're like, well, here, play with GI Joes instead.

A (48:46)

Okay.

B (48:46)

Or I wanted to watch, you know, Little Mermaid and they'd be like, well, why don't we watch this instead? It's like them at their very young age and the place they grew up in, just you learn about having to correct your. What you want and your behavior to try and be how you're, quote, supposed to be.

A (49:08)

Did your mom, like I'm talking about now, since obviously you've come out and everything, did your mom ever end up saying, like, well, looking back, I sort of knew?

B (49:17)

No, but it would be really interesting, like to, to have this conversation with her because even like me, like, I'm just remembering things like the, those magazines or when we first got Internet. I was a. Had a teen behind my name. I think I was younger than 16. I would like or see things online, you know, and. And my dad one time was like, I saw what you guys were looking at online and I'm just gonna say I wanted to stop. And I don't know if he's talking to my brothers. Was it me?

A (49:50)

Were you looking at porn?

B (49:51)

It was like, it wasn't porn, but it was like gay erotic. Oh, it wasn't like hardcore porn.

A (49:57)

Okay.

B (49:57)

But it was like guys in Speedos and stuff like that, like normal. Yeah, it's normal, but it felt so unnormal. There wasn't room for it to be normal. And also when I was a teenager and young adult, I became aware of my mom's cousin who had passed away. His name was Jimmy, and he was gay and in a life partnership. And he died of aids.

A (50:20)

Oh, wow.

B (50:21)

And the family, like, talked about him fondly, but also blamed his homosexuality as if it killed him. Except for my grandmother, who I was very close to, and I never came out to her. And she died shortly after we wrapped filming 80 Day Obsession. But she did say to me, you know, Donald, my. Because that would have been her nephew. My nephew Jimmy. I loved him. And he came over and he used to say, aunt Bunky. They all called her Aunt Bunky. Aunt Bunky, I'm really trying to change. I went to the priest and asked him to pray for me. And she said. I told him, jimmy, your Aunt Bunky doesn't care about what you do. I just don't need to know the details about. She said, I don't care if you do it in the kitchen, in the living room and your bedroom. And I want you to have fun and be safe. I don't have to know the details, and neither does anyone else, but I just love you. And I feel like when my grandma told me that she was telling you, she was telling me, I love you. And that's how I hold that conversation.

A (51:22)

That's crazy, though, that you. Your grandma passed at the end of filming of 80 Day Obsession, and you never came out to her. You're, like, on TV, gay. No question by the end of 80 day, if you were gay.

B (51:39)

Well, you know what's so funny? Even, like, in 2016, 17, like, my first boyfriend, I introduced my parents to, like, official boyfriend. His name is Chad. He lives in Nashville, and he's still a friend of the family. But I still was very nervous, even though my. Both my parents knew I was gay.

A (52:01)

Right.

B (52:01)

I was so nervous about being honest about having a boyfriend, like, because that made it real, and they'd have to see it. I carried shame for so long. Longer than I had to.

A (52:11)

Wow. I didn't. Gosh, I did not know that. Like, honestly, like, I. I watched your personality change a little bit. Not a lot, but I did watch you become more comfortable with yourself the longer you were here. Like, from when you left Nashville to when you got here, and then the longer you've been here.

B (52:29)

Yeah.

A (52:30)

But I did not realize that. Geez, when you moved here, you were still very experiencing it. What. What was your dad's reaction?

B (52:37)

So my dad. I didn't end up telling him. I just was so emotionally drained. And I was like. I told my mom. I was like, I'm not going to be able to tell dad, But I will tell him if you don't. Just not right now. But if you feel that you need to share with him, you totally can. I didn't feel like it was like I needed that conversation with my mom. I didn't need it with anyone else that way. And so the reason I said I remembered it was Valentine's Day is because I think it was Thursday that week after the weekend was Valentine's Day. And I got a text from my dad on that day that said, I love you, dawn, and if you need to talk, I'm here for you. Oh, yeah. And I was like, it meant a lot. I mean, I got several texts like that over. Over the next couple months from aunts and uncle and people just saying things like, I talked to your mom. And I can't imagine how hard it's been to carry that secret.

A (53:33)

And I'm glad, though, that they were so.

B (53:36)

Just so empathetic.

A (53:37)

Yeah. That it wasn't being the way you grew up. That it wasn't a.

B (53:42)

Well, I. I have an aunt now who has literally, like, unfriended me and even I think. Think last year, so as recent as last year, sent me a message like, it's not too late to turn from my wicked ways. What?

A (53:56)

You never told me this.

B (53:57)

Yeah, she's on my. She's on my dad's side. And I'm. I'm closer to my mom's side of the family just because we grew up more around them. I love my dad's side of the family, but this particular aunt, bless her, is probably until the day she dies, just going to be like the Bible thumping. Being gay is wrong voice and it. It is hurtful. But you know the nice thing about waiting, because that would be really. That would be really hard to get those messages if I came out when I was 21, like, right. Let's say the day I kissed Todrick, the next day I was like, guys, some went down. I think I'm gay now. When I see that, I really just feel bad for her.

A (54:38)

Right.

B (54:38)

And I feel a responsibility to share my story because people like her speak loudly.

A (54:44)

Yes.

B (54:45)

And we need to speak just as loud of acceptance and love and because in secret is where people find themselves in dangerous positions. So. Yeah. But I am thankful that I got all those texts. And my dad also showed my mom another picture. She told me this later and showed me the picture he saw online, a picture that he was like, I think God showed me this because it helped me with Donald and It was a picture of a blue collar, working class man, very, very much same demographic as my dad. And he was holding. The picture was black and white, and he was holding a sign that said, I fix machines all day for a living, but I can't fix my gay son. And then there was another picture of him in color and he was holding a sign that said, because he's not broken. And even right now when I say that, it makes me, like, get a little teary eyed because something so simple can speak volumes to someone. And I think about, like a dad, like my dad not knowing how to connect with a gay. Like, to not knowing how there's no, there's no textbook to be a parent as it is. And when you come from that world and all of a sudden you have a gay son and you come. You have a sister who's. You know what I mean?

A (56:02)

Yeah.

B (56:05)

I just thought that was so cool and such a profound thing. And for him to say, make that statement like, donald's not broken. He's how he's supposed to be.

A (56:14)

Right.

B (56:15)

So they were on board before I was. It was great because I struggled a lot after I came out with them. I felt exposed and I went through a little bit of a. Depressed, like, now I'm being honest, but I've let go of every, like, the reputation I was trying to hold, making people proud. So I felt like I get to be honest. But now I'm a disappointment. And my parents get my brothers and they get to have wives and kids in normal lives and my parents get to talk about them and be proud.

A (56:42)

And so you didn't feel like, even though they were totally accepting, I believe they were ashamed. Okay. So you just felt like, okay, they love me, but really, like, there's. You're a disappointment that you love me.

B (56:56)

But they wished I was different. That's what I thought, but that's not true, of course. And. And it just took time and healing for me to realize that.

A (57:03)

You had you mentioned before you told me that your mom. Actually, you didn't know it at first, but your mom stopped. I don't. I don't know how you said it, like praying to God or talking to God or.

B (57:16)

Yeah. So. So shortly. So I was in that depressed phase. And then there was this church in Nashville, and this is a really good, good place to like, put a cap on my coming out story. It really meant a lot. This pastor of the. A huge church, a lot of celebrities went. Carrie Underwood went. Was like feeling really conflicted because he hadn't made an affirmation statement for gay people in his church, and he just felt like he was riding a line, and that was not right. He is straight, and I. There's. I love straight, white male ally. Like someone who. It doesn't matter to him to speak out for gays personally, but he just feels this conviction to do what's right. So, anyways, he did make this statement, and then the church really took a huge dive in attendance because of it. Like, went from, like, 2000, 2500 people to, like, 300 people. But he was never regretted it. And he's. His name's Stan Mitchell. And if. If anyone is interested in seeing some really amazing posts and support for families and people of the LGBTQ community, check him out on Facebook. Anyways, he did a midweek service talking about the Bible and why it was important for him to become affirming of gays. And so a lot of churches are accepting, but they won't marry you.

A (58:46)

Right.

B (58:47)

They won't let you work with children.

A (58:48)

Right.

B (58:48)

They won't employ you. And he was like, it is no different. That's what affirming means. Like, whether you're gay or straight, you are a child of God, and you can serve in this place as anyone else can. Obviously still do background checks if you're working. Working with kids and stuff like that. Yeah. So I sent it, the video to my mom, and this is, like, two years after I came out to her.

A (59:12)

Okay.

B (59:12)

And she was like. I was like, how did you feel about that video? And she said, I feel like I can read my Bible again. I was like, what are you talking about? Because, you know, I grew up homeschooled, and my mom, every morning when I got up, was listening to worship music and reading her Bible. And she said, when you came out to me, I felt like I had to choose everything I thought I knew and understood about God or you. And she was like, and I'll choose you every time. And she literally. She said, I closed my Bible and put it down.

A (59:42)

Yes.

B (59:43)

And she said, I just felt like if there wasn't room for you, then I didn't want to be a part of it. And when she saw that sermon, she was like, I. I feel like I get to now be. Have that thing that I loved again and love you. So it was really cool, and it meant a lot to me because she could have done that and told me, but she really respected when I said, I can't hold your journey and your feelings, like, I'm dealing with mine. Do you talk and she actually told me she went to a therapist because she was so mad at God because how could God not love me? So it wasn't even like.

A (60:18)

So she wasn't mad at God that you were the way you were. She was mad at God for being like.

B (60:23)

She was like, what's your problem? If I want a relationship with God, Donald is amazing. And if Donald can't be accepted, then I don't want to be accepted.

A (60:30)

Right.

B (60:30)

And even her therapist was like, do you really think all knowing, all loving, all powerful God doesn't accept Donald? You don't think there's a fault in that thinking. And so it's just, it's so. Anyways, it was really beautiful and that began a really special just openness and journey. And now my whole family, like it feels so good to be. To bring Nell, my boyfriend now the, the love of my life, to my parents house and play with the kids and it just be like family because it's something that, you know, years ago I didn't think could ever happen. So.

A (61:10)

Yeah, listen, I think it's amazing. I. This has been so interesting and like eye opening for me to hear this side of your story because in eight years I think you've given me little pieces of it. But I'm kind of understanding now why I had no idea that even the first year you were here, like I remember we went to New York, we went and saw Todrick, we went and saw him in kinky boots, we went to his apartment, we hung out. Like, I had no idea you were still carrying a lot of those feelings.

B (61:42)

Like even on my Instagram stories. Then I, I spoke differently because that's. You learn to correct your behavior when you just don't know if the world will accept you. So I would talk a lot more. It's so cringe now. Like if I see an old video, I'm like, Jesus Christ, who were you being if anything? It's like I should have been canceled for some kind of appropriation. I'm like, what the. Who am I talking? Like, and it feels really good just to be really happy and for the, like I can say now today. And I never thought I would say this. If I could have whole different life and be straight, I wouldn't want to. I love who I am. I love who I am and that's just really special.

A (62:23)

I love that you're there and I love honestly that you have one, that you're sharing it on our podcast. But also people have like watched you now obviously like in the body realm, in the world like background cast. And I just think it's like another deeper understanding of you and honestly appreciating all the personality that you brought to those sets. Even in those moments, I guess, where you were still struggling a little bit. Yeah, you still, I do feel like though looking back, like you still showed up as Donald. But again, I was, I actually did an 80 day obsession workout today because I could only do resistance band work right now. So I did booty. And it is funny because when I look at you then and I'm like, this barely looks like Donald. And it's not your appearance. I think it's. I do think it's the way you carried yourself. Not that you carried yourself in a bad way, but I can see the difference from then 2018 or 2017, really when we filmed that to 2025 and how much you've grown into Donald Samper.

B (63:26)

Well, just a note on that. The, the Body beachbody Body community and being in those programs is a huge part of what made me being comfortable with myself because of the messages of people being like, when you were struggling, I got that. Or when you said that or when that face. And it just, all those little messages were reminders like I'm not supposed to be anybody else in this world except for myself. And that helps people.

A (63:51)

Yes.

B (63:51)

And so it's been amazing.

A (63:54)

Well, I think speaking of helping people, we should drop some.

B (64:00)

Resources.

A (64:01)

Thank you. I literally, the word went out of my brain. I was like, we should drop some resources because I think your story is really powerful. I think that people are going to listen that might be struggling with a family member or a friend, loved one or may, you know, trying to help them or trying to understand it for themselves. So we will drop some resources in the show notes.

B (64:22)

Absolutely. And I would like to say too, if you're a mother and you're struggling how to show up for your child, please feel free to reach out to my mom. She really does believe that that's part of her purpose. Now. Her name's Jeannie Stamper and you can find her on socials or hit me up. But if, just specifically, if you' a mom in that position and you need, you don't know anyone else who's been through it. She would love to.

A (64:46)

You can always email us@everythingsperfectpodcast gmail.com as always, like, subscribe, comment, leave a review. We always appreciate that and we will see you guys for the next one.

B (64:58)

See you next time.