Everything's Perfect Except... The Heart Wants What It Wants

Summary

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Everything's Perfect Except... The Heart Wants What It Wants

Everything’s Perfect Podcast with Autumn Calabrese & Donald “Nell” Stamper
Date: June 9, 2026

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Episode Overview

In this episode, Autumn and Nell dive deep into the landscape of emotional boundaries, friendships, and love—themes encapsulated by the phrase “the heart wants what it wants.” They answer listener “phone-a-friend” questions on managing platonic friendships between straight women and gay men, and unpack the dilemmas of loving someone when life circumstances (like age or future plans) stand in the way. The conversation is honest, compassionate, and sprinkled with humor as both hosts reflect on their own experiences and offer heartfelt advice.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Navigating Platonic Friendships: Female & Gay Male Dynamics

(01:52 – 22:19)

• Listener Question:
  A listener asks how to manage a close friendship with her first gay male friend. She enjoys their fun, banter, and even “flirty” remarks that would feel different in a straight friendship, and wonders about how to navigate that dynamic.

• Autumn & Nell’s Take:

  • Normalize It: Autumn says if you know your friend is gay, treat the banter like you would with a girlfriend—don’t overthink potential flirtation.

    “You receive it the same way you would receive it if you’re with a girlfriend that you’re not [attracted to] ...” —Autumn (02:41)

  • Boundaries & Clarity: Nell acknowledges he’s sometimes confused girlfriends in the past when he wasn’t fully out, stressing the importance of self-awareness and clear boundaries.

    “If someone says they’re gay ... girl, do yourself a favor and let that door shut ... you don’t want your heart to get entangled in that mess.” —Nell (15:38)

  • Gay Friends Can Shower Compliments: Gay male friends often sincerely admire and compliment women without romantic intent; for those unaccustomed, it may feel confusing at first.

    “Gay men can really appreciate a woman’s figure. Like, your gay bestie will compliment you—‘your tits look amazing’...” —Autumn (09:01)

  • Why It Feels Safe: As women, sometimes a compliment feels less threatening and easier to receive from a gay male friend, possibly leading to mixed feelings due to “safe” emotional intimacy.

    “It feels safe to let him say anything ... it’s easier to hear it and receive it and not feel like you have to be on guard.” —Autumn (24:49)

  • Communicate If Uncomfortable: Both agree, if it truly feels confusing or uncomfortable, say something:

    “If it makes you feel, question things, or makes you even take a pause ... just tell them. I don’t like that.” —Nell (18:01)

  • Create “New Neural Pathways”: Nell stresses the importance of unlearning old thinking—compliments from gay men aren’t loaded in the same way, and it’s okay to reframe how you receive them.

    “You need to create a new pathway of thinking ... when gay guys say this, it’s just like giving a nice friendly compliment, right?” —Nell (21:15)

Notable Quotes

• “Your gay bestie is like, that’s fucking perfect ... you don’t have to deal with the sexual tension.” —Autumn (10:32)
• “Let me give tough love ... you’re turning it into something that it’s not. And that’s not his fault.” —Autumn (16:36)

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2. When the Heart Wants What It Wants: Ending a Deep, Impractical Love

(26:27 – 47:47)

• Listener Question:
  A woman shares her pain about ending a nine-month, deeply loving relationship with a man 31 years her junior. He wants a family, which she (as an older woman) can’t provide. They’re both struggling, still in love, and wondering whether to stay in each other’s lives until circumstances force them apart.

• Empathy & Shared Experience:
  Autumn relates, having gravitated to older partners and knowing how connections defy social conventions and timelines.

  “We have a conventional way of living ... emotions are just emotions. Feelings are feelings, and you connect with people the way you connect with people.” —Autumn (30:33)

• Practical Reality Check:
  Both hosts advise that, as hard as it is, if your futures truly diverge, it’s kinder to part ways now rather than clinging and causing greater pain.

  “If he knows he wants children ... you have to love somebody enough to release them and it’s going to hurt and it’s going to suck.” —Autumn (31:35)

  • Time doesn’t equal importance: even shorter relationships can be emotionally overwhelming.

• Don’t “Wind Down” Together:
  Nell sharply warns against the “let’s stay together until he’s ready to move on” solution:

  “Don’t do that ... you’re just going to cause more pain ... it’s like when an addict needs a fix. They feel better in the moment, but it’s not progressing them in life.” —Nell (39:38)

• Finding Comfort & Process:

  • Lean on friends or support people completely, share your messy feelings, and don’t go through heartbreak in isolation.

    “Find a shoulder to cry on ... that’s what friends are for.” —Nell (47:41)

  • Acknowledge grief is natural and only time and connection will ease the pain.

    “There is nothing we could say that will make it hurt less ... time ... that’s what friends are for.” —Autumn (47:43)

• Advice for Everyone:

  • Have hard conversations up front about values and life goals, especially when unconventional factors (big age gap, desire for kids, etc.) are involved.

    “If you catch those feelings quickly, jump to those topics quickly ... even though it’s unsexy and not the fun part.” —Nell (34:46)

  • Don’t try to preserve an intense connection with special arrangements unless both are fully prepared for the consequences.
  • Allow time and distance to cool emotions before attempting to “just be friends” post-breakup.

Notable Quotes

• “I need you to stop calling me. Because every time my phone rings, my heart hopes it’s you. And I need to know it’s not.” —Nell (47:20)
• “Have a friend or a couple friends that you just put it all out there ... someone who will hear you and see you and not judge you.” —Nell (41:06)

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Memorable Moments

• Dance Floor Story:
  Autumn reminisces about meeting a friend on the dance floor in college, not knowing if he was gay:

  “He was a really good dancer ... I remember thinking to my girlfriend ... ‘I don’t know if he’s gay or not.’ ... And then ... he gave me like a little kiss goodbye. And I was like, okay, he’s not gay.” —Autumn (05:24-06:26)

• Nell on Coming Out:
  Nell reflects on how not owning his sexuality in youth led to confusing intimacies with female friends, emphasizing honesty now.
• Neuroplasticity Theme:
  Humorous self-awareness as both hosts discuss “creating new neural pathways” in how we process compliments and behaviors across different relationship dynamics.

  “I’ve been talking a lot about neuroplasticity because I saw a few Instagram posts. I think I’m a genius about it now.” —Nell (21:15)

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Important Timestamps

• 01:52 — Introduction of the “phone-a-friend” segment on platonic friendships
• 02:41 — Autumn explains how to receive “flirty” banter from a gay male friend
• 09:01 – 09:55 — On compliments from gay friends and boundaries
• 15:35 – 16:36 — Nell’s “tough love” on shutting the romance door
• 26:27 — Second listener’s email: age-gap relationship heartbreak
• 31:35 – 34:36 — Harsh truths about divergent futures in relationships
• 39:37 — Nell’s warning about staying together “until” circumstances change
• 41:06 — The importance of confiding in friends after a breakup
• 47:20 – 47:31 — Nell’s personal boundary story with a first love

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Tone & Style Highlights

• Conversational & Unfiltered: The hosts are unguarded, using humor, gentle cursing, and supportive banter.
• Caring but Candid: Willing to give tough love (“Let me give tough love for a second ... you’re turning it into something that it’s not” —Autumn, 16:36) balanced with empathy.
• Inclusive: Acknowledges varied life experiences, backgrounds, and validates the messy process of relationships and self-discovery.

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For listeners struggling with confusing friendships or the pain of heartbreak, this episode is an empathetic and validating listen—witty, real, and full of practical, loving advice.

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Contact:
If you have a question for Autumn and Nell, email [e-mail] with "phone a friend" in the subject line.

Social:
@everythingsperfectofficial on Instagram

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End of Summary

Transcript

[Grainger Announcer]

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When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts, and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER Click grainger.com or just stop by Granger for the ones who get it done.

[Autumn]

God. Get on your A game. My back has popped so many times this morning, it sounds like bubble wrap. I don't know what's happening. I do know what's happening. It was my workout yesterday, which was legs. Explain that to me.

[Nell]

I posted on my Instagram the other day, like I saw this guy, this video of a guy stretching his skin.

[Autumn]

Yes.

[Nell]

And it was the on the screen it said someone diagnosed my husband. And it's like so funny because I've always had that stretchy skin. And so I ditched it or whatever and pulled my skin. And everyone was like, yeah, you have a hypermobility issue. I'm like, not in the back of my legs.

[Autumn]

She's not in the back of my legs.

[Nell]

Don't ask a to touch her toes without bending her knees. But if you need a parachute up falling down, I'll just spread my face open.

[Autumn]

Okay, what are we looking for? What are we doing? Hi.

[Nell]

I found it. Okay, so someone wrote us a phone. A friend and I thought it would be a fun one for us to start with today because it is very much like it has to do with us kind of. It says, can you guys walk through how you guys manage your platonic friendship? I have a cake. Manage is an interesting word. I have a gay friend and I am straight. He's my first gay friend. We have tons of fun together, laugh, lots of dance together, and even say things to each other that would be considered flirting if it was a straight friendship, but not sure how to receive it on my end when it feels like flirting, when talking or joking about sexual things. I'd love some insight. Thanks, guys.

[Autumn]

So, well, you receive it as you're hanging out with your friend. And I'm not saying that to be a. Like, you receive it the same way you would receive it if you're with a girlfriend that you're not. You're not attracted to your girlfriend because it's your girlfriend.

[Nell]

I have a question for you. This is an off subject because I want to talk about, like, some, okay, squirrel specific experience with that, but have you ever had a guy friend that was a straight guy that turned into a relationship?

[Autumn]

Let me. Let me ask you a question about your question. Meaning, like, we started off as just friends with. No. Like, I didn't want anything else and he didn't want anything else. And it turned into a relationship because we were such good friends or we sort of knew we were attracted to each other, but we became friends first and then became a couple.

[Nell]

No friends with no issues like your friends. That's not it. And then all of a sudden, like, you see it in rom com sometimes.

[Autumn]

Yeah, like, you, like, don't see it. You're not attracted to them, and all of a sudden one day you're like, oh, I'm attracted to them. No.

[Nell]

Have you ever been friends? Did you have a lot of straight guy friends growing up? Like high school, college?

[Autumn]

High school? No, not so much. We had a big group of friends, like girls and guys. So I guess, kind of. But I had a boyfriend, so, like, college, I had a lot of gay friends. I went to a performing arts college.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

So I had my girlfriends and the guys that we hung out with, we had gay guy friends. And then we also had straight athletic friends. But that was usually like, who are you attracted to?

[Nell]

Yeah, yeah, right. Going to a performing arts college, that literally the main thing they train you is how to be friends with gay guys.

[Autumn]

What'd you learn in school? Obviously, befriend the gays and how fabulous is going to be?

[Nell]

I have.

[Autumn]

I know. But to answer your question, I've had people that I have been friends with, like, met them, started a friendship with, but been attracted to them. I did have. Okay, wait a minute. I have one friend. This is funny. If he listens. I think he listens to the podcast sometimes. Marky. Mark. What's up, buddy? He won't care. When I very first met Mark in college, I met him at a club. Like, I was on the dance floor with my girlfriends. He was on the dance floor. He was a really Good dancer, obviously. I love to dance. Dance major. So, like, he just started dancing with me and, like, we had the best time.

[Nell]

I'm picturing, by the way, like a dance off scene.

[Autumn]

Like, it wasn't a deer scene, but

[Nell]

I'm totally picturing it was like, no,

[Autumn]

it wasn't like that, but it was the early 2000s and like, swing was in at the time and he could swing dance. And so he just like grabbed me and started throwing me around the floor. And I was like, oh, this guy could dance. Like, this is fun. And so, like a circle formed around us, like, while he threw me and spots and all the things. And I think, like, we exchanged numbers. But he went to. He went to a different college. He went to college like an hour, hour and a half away. We would talk sometimes. We met up at the club a few times. And I remember thinking to my girlfriend, like, saying to my roommate, I was like, I don't know if he's gay or not. And I really, again, this is me being very young and naive. But the only thing I had to base it on was like, he was a really good dancer. We had a great time and we had hung out a couple times and he hadn't made any kind of move. So I was. I was like, not that that makes you gay, but I just wasn't sure.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

And then like, maybe it was like our second or third time at the club. We came out, everybody's like dripping sweat, two in the morning. And he gave me like a little kiss goodbye. And I was like, okay, he's not gay.

[Nell]

Oh.

[Autumn]

And we went on to. I guess I would say we were friends with benefits for years. We never really dated.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

But we were very good. But we were very good friends.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

With some benefits.

[Nell]

Okay.

[Autumn]

For a long time.

[Nell]

That.

[Autumn]

That doesn't answer the question about. Well, her question. We could talk about that.

[Nell]

No, but that's interesting. So, okay, so I feel like the. When you were like, I don't know if he's gay, was it because you were like, thought he was cute?

[Autumn]

I did think he was cute. Yeah.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

And he was really fun, really funny, outgoing. Like I said, great dancer. I'm at a performing arts college. Everybody that dances is gay. Like, you know, I'm like, yeah, little bubble where, like the guys in high school, like, they. They didn't really dance. I mean, yeah. If you were out of formal, like, would they slow dance with you? Of course. But they weren't like swing dancing, throwing you around the dance floor. So I just didn't know, like, it was like, you know, I was still.

[Nell]

You know what that shows is, like, your brain was in a place where if that, like, little kids, good night never happened. You guys. It didn't go that way. If he would have been, like, at the end of the night, like, girl, you think that guy's cute? I'm gonna go talk to him. It feels like you were at a crossroads where you would have been like, yes. And also could have been.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

Very comfortable with that because you have this. Like, if someone's gay, then they're gay. Then they're gay. It's like, not even a thing.

[Autumn]

It's not a thing.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

And I don't think every girl has that necessarily. And I think it just depends on because. So we had a mutual friend that, when I first met you, was attracted to you and thought maybe you were bi. And I was like, nope, he's as gay as the day is long.

[Nell]

I'm not a betting person, but if I'm putting money on it, if I'm putting money on it, I'm gonna get

[Autumn]

r. Yeah, I'm already. Well, he's. He's gay. There's no. Like, you are not his cup of tea. But I do think sometimes, and I want to be careful how I say this, because I don't want to. Like, I don't want to make it like I'm insulting somebody or anything, but, like, I think sometimes, like, maybe if you haven't been receiving attention from the opposite sex in a while, and then, like, a gay man is great at making a woman feel good.

[Nell]

Mm.

[Autumn]

Like, your gay bestie will compliment you. Girl, you look beautiful. And they'll say things that make might make you like, oh, my God, your tits look amazing.

[Nell]

Right.

[Autumn]

Like, and you take that as flirting or something, because gay men can really appreciate a woman's figure.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

Like, some gay guys are like, hey, look, if we got to put it down for you, we will. We don't. But, like, yeah, they're still. But they're like, I'm still gay.

[Nell]

Right.

[Autumn]

So I think it could just be misinterpreted if you're not used to it.

[Nell]

Yeah. I mean, there's a lot of. I think a lot of it has to do. It's totally about where you come from if you don't have a lot of experience with gay people, what it looks

[Autumn]

like to interact with them or, like, what. Yes. How they interact. How a gay person interacts with you.

[Nell]

You know, I think that Will and Grace did a really good. The show Did a really good job of displaying.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

Like, Grace obviously would have preferred Will to be straight.

[Autumn]

Yes.

[Nell]

And also, in a way, like I've always said, and I'll, I'll talk more about this but that like, I, I love women so much. Like, I love a show with a strong female lead. I love my girlfriends. I'm obsessed with women. I connect with women. It. If I was sexually attracted to women, I don't know if life could be much better than that. Except for I wouldn't be me.

[Autumn]

Right.

[Nell]

And that's part of what makes it so special. And there's really something to like, people talk about sometimes. They'll be like, oh, he's so amazing, but he's gay. Like, he doesn't like that means he can't be your guy. But honestly, if you don't have a gay in your life, it's like at least one. There's like, that's my boy. There. There's no relationship. Honestly.

[Autumn]

I think I'm like, sometimes I'm like, you got to embrace it. Like your gay bestie is like, that's fucking perfect. Because you don't have to deal with the sexual tension. You don't have to deal with the, like, I'm annoyed at you, you fudgeing slob. You did whatever, like. Or you didn't understand my feelings. Like, this is the person that you have all those conversations with. But you have to know. Yeah, there isn't a romantic future there.

[Nell]

Right.

[Autumn]

For me, I guess, like I've, I mean, I've had. I have so many gay friends, like so many male gay friends. It's just never. I don't know. I guess I don't know what the mechanism is, but like, you know, just like you're not attracted to like your sibling or your cousin or something.

[Nell]

Yeah. It's just like not there.

[Autumn]

It's just not. Because I, like, I can acknowledge you're a great looking guy.

[Nell]

Sure.

[Autumn]

But I'm not.

[Nell]

I'd. You.

[Autumn]

I mean, but, but also.

[Nell]

Yeah, but yeah, also.

[Autumn]

But also you're gay. So, like, it's not even a thought. Like, it's not a no.

[Nell]

I. So I have had.

[Grainger Announcer]

When you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, Filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Nell]

And I take full responsibility. I have confused a lot of my girlfriends in the past. But I'm not talking about before you

[Autumn]

were out though, right?

[Nell]

Exactly. I'm not talking about when you and I first met and. But I. It has been an interesting journey because I went from having a very hard time accepting my sexuality. And so. And then when I started like wanting to. I would say I think I'm bi. But that was. And I do want to caution if anyone because this can happen at any age. And it's really sad to me. I still sometimes. And like in my hometown or there was someone I met once when we were in Puerto Rico. I. Where it's like, I know that this person is gay and they're unable to accept that they're gay. And so they say things like, I also love pussy. And I know that's hard. I know that's. I'm not trying to be crass. Right. That's the kind of things that I would say at a young age when I didn't in fact have any interest. And that, no, thank you. It's fine if it's on the menu. I'm down for an all inclusive situation. Situation for people. But I'll pass.

[Autumn]

But that's not what I'm eating tonight.

[Nell]

Exactly. I won't be eating that tonight.

[Autumn]

But so prefers me not to eat food.

[Nell]

Yeah, exactly. So I, I just want like, if I, if I could go back in time, I would tell myself, you're really confusing a lot of other people because you're afraid to be honest about yourself. So you need to really set boundaries in this friendship. So that's the thing. It doesn't sound like that's what the

[Autumn]

person, she knows, he's gay.

[Nell]

Exactly. And then, but then there was this time where like I became like, I started with my friends. I wasn't like out online or even with all my family, but some of those Girlfriends who, by the way, part of my liberation in life was going to the clubs with and dancing and we would, like, grind on each other and get swimming, sweaty. But nothing was happening down there.

[Autumn]

Like, dead.

[Nell]

Yeah, exactly. It wasn't. It just was.

[Autumn]

But it's fun. It's being yourself.

[Nell]

Exactly. And sort of like in settings that I'd never been in, but I didn't think about at the time as I was going through that, that the. My girlfriends, I might have also really been confusing them because I was giving them all of the attention and fun and also listening and advice and stuff that they just weren't getting from straight guys that are potential partners. So then when I was like, okay, I'm gay, I had. Remember having a conversation with a friend of mine who. A straight girlfriend of mine, and she was like. And I'm still. I'm talking like 24 years old or something, like young, 25 years old. And she was like, I'm in love with you and it sucks, and I don't know what to do.

[Autumn]

But she didn't know you were gay to start. Right?

[Nell]

To start.

[Autumn]

Right.

[Nell]

And then that, like, happened. Yeah. So it was this thing.

[Autumn]

And I. Yeah.

[Nell]

And so I understand that, like, depending on where you're from and what your circumstances are, but if someone says they're gay or even if someone is wrestling with their sexuality, whether they're bi or not, girl, do yourself a favor and let that door shut. Let that, like, put that wall and boundary there because they. You don't want your heart to get entangled in that mess when someone's trying to figure out themselves like that. And, and then now when later, like, I'm gay. I tell people I'm gay. I have, I've had. Especially even as a dance teacher, like one of my students said to me one, one time, well, you're the ice cream cone that we all want to lick, but we know we can't.

[Autumn]

Oh, my God.

[Nell]

Isn't that aggressive? I was like, well, thank you.

[Autumn]

But that's what I mean, though. Like, when you know somebody's sexuality and their preference is not you.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

Whatever that is. Right. But like, in this case, you're a female straight. This person is gay male. And he's, he, you know, he's gay. He said he's gay. You've written it in the email that he is gay. You're. You're, you're taking things out of context. Like, I just, like, let me give tough love for a second. Yeah, you're. You're turning it into Something that it's not. And that's not his fault. That's really just you interpreting it in a way that is not at all the intention. He's gay. He said he's gay. He's your friend. Like, now, if you don't. If it confuses, like, I'm just speaking to her now, if it confuses you that he says funny things sexually or think then maybe you need to have a conversation and just be like, look, that confuses me. So maybe we shouldn't talk about that stuff. But I just think, like, again, this is where I say it's like. Probably comes down to, like, are you not getting attention from a male somewhere else in life? Because more than likely I feel like that's what it is. It's probably that there's not male attention coming in. And so the fact that there's so much, like, admiration coming from her gay male friend, it feels really good. And you want that to be something more than it is, but it's just not. There's.

[Nell]

Or is it, like, because there's that emotional connection there, it feels like maybe you might get. Maybe she does. She gets, quote, attention. But it's still so different when, like, someone you love, then, like, you might really need to put up a boundary. Like, I know that we're just joking about sexual things, and honestly, I know you're gay and we're pals, whatever, like, bosom buddies, but let's not joke about that, because for some reason, I don't like it. I know I want to normalize people just saying the fudgeing thing, right? Like, if it makes you feel, question things, or makes you even take a pause for a minute, just tell them. I don't like that. Like, if you are talking about. I have a friend who doesn't like to talk about certain sexual things where most of my friends, honestly, anything. Nothing's off the table. We'll talk about it. We'll put it all exactly. Autumn's not the friend that won't talk because we can talk about anything. And it. And I love talking about things that feel taboo or weird to talk about, but you're talking with your friends and you just go there without any shame. But there is a friend who I know I can't. Like, if I started talking about anal with her or something, she would be uncomfortable. And so I don't. And who is it?

[Autumn]

Let's go have the conversation. I like to watch people squirm a little.

[Nell]

And I think that it is just good. Like, good on her.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

For making her friend know that and not going there. And it's not because, you know, she feels attracted or something to me, but it's just because those kinds of conversations make her uncomfortable. So I think having a conversation and just saying, Saying this feels like flirting. And it's okay to put some boundaries. You know, there's a lot. Like when we get these. Phone a friend because of me as a gay person in my extensive list of girlfriends, in ways that I've met different people and stuff, I can think of this scenario in a thousand different ways.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

But I think the real important thing is like just setting boundaries and, and looking at what you're like, what you love about your friendship with that person and really focusing on that and not letting your mind wander to. Okay, but what if it could.

[Autumn]

Yeah, yeah.

[Grainger Announcer]

It's just not.

[Autumn]

It's a hard stop.

[Nell]

Right.

[Autumn]

The person has been very clear. So I think. Yeah. However, you need to navigate the friendship to not be confused. But it doesn't sound like he's giving her mixed signals. It's not flirting. It's just personality.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

You know, like, like, God, it would just be like having that same conversation with your girl, like I said, with your girlfriend. Like, you wouldn't take it as flirting if you were having.

[Nell]

Yeah, but I think when, I think when what, you know, like you said you went to performing arts school. You grew up around a lot of gays. A lot of women are not used to a guy being like, oh my God, girl, your tits look amazing or your ass.

[Autumn]

Right.

[Nell]

Is like your boyfriend jeans or. Exactly. Loves boobies. Boobies.

[Autumn]

He loves boobies. Nell loves movies. He's like, he's like, I just love them there. I just want to touch them. And now he doesn't touch mine. But. Yeah, but also if he did, I would be like, whatever. But I wouldn't like, you know that he's just admiring like the female body.

[Nell]

Right.

[Autumn]

In general. It's a fun thing. It's not a turn on thing. He just thinks they're cool.

[Nell]

Totally. Yeah. Right? And so just think, like, you have to. I think if people grow up. This thought just occurred to me too. You grow, we grow up. I've been talking a lot about neuroplasticity because I saw a few Instagram posts, I think I'm a genius about it now. It's about like, we grow up and we have specific ways we think about things. And so people say, oh, you have a very nice outfit. Or. But if someone crosses the line and starts saying something about your you that's flirty or sexual, you think that they have interest. Well, you need to create a new pathway of thinking, a new neuro pathway that you realize, okay, for when gay guys say this. It's just like giving a nice friendly compliment, right? But they can be really specific and to the point and be like, your boobs. You are so hot. You are so freaking hot.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

You know what I mean? And it's like, okay, I'm not used to hearing this from a man who doesn't want to fuck me, right? But it's nice because I'm creating a new neuropathway.

[Autumn]

You know what else, though? I think this could also be the thing. You know, he's gay, so it feels really safe to let him say anything. But that can get a little confusing because as women, we are very on guard. At least I know I am. I know a lot of my friends are like the world we've grown up in. Like, you know, like, even when you're out, it's almost like you have a wall up of like, don't come fucking talk to me. Yeah, no, because. Because men can be so crass and so aggressive and like, so you really gotta like, give off the energy of like, you better watch how you fucking talk to me.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

Like. Because it doesn't feel safe.

[Grainger Announcer]

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Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, Filters ready to clog. H VAC on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER. Click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Autumn]

Because there's been times where a man has complimented me like a random stranger and they are not trying to do anything other than be nice. Like it hasn't been inappropriate or anything. And honestly, like, I instantly Find myself, like. Yeah, like, protective mode. Like, why the Are you talking to me?

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

And, like, you know, so I try to find the balance between, hey, somebody's being nice. Just like. Like, it happened to me a few months ago at Erwan. Like, I was standing there in line waiting to get something at the hot. And the guy behind me was just like, you're really beautiful. And I was like, thank you. I was so uncomfortable. I couldn't get out of that line fast enough. Nice guy. He wasn't trying to. He wasn't asking for my phone number. He just gave me a compliment.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

And it was like. But so I think something wants something

[Nell]

or you just, like, have. Yeah.

[Autumn]

You're just like. You're like, okay.

[Nell]

You just feel, like, motive here.

[Autumn]

Yeah. Like, so when it's coming from a safe place, it's easier to hear it and receive it and not feel like you have to be on guard about the compliment. Like, yeah, like, oh, do I have to be careful walking to the parking lot? You know? So then maybe it confuses her a little bit.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

Because it feels safe to receive the flirting. Whereas, like, if you were out at a bar or something and a guy said it, you're like, oh, my God, is he gonna try to go home with me? I can't. Like, does he want my number? I don't want to give. You know, Like, Yeah, all those things. So it could be that. Yeah. I mean, it could be a bunch of different things, but I think it's just being aware that if he said he's gay, then you can't take it as any.

[Nell]

Right.

[Autumn]

Like, you have to. Anytime you start to think that, you have to put yourself in check because he's just being himself.

[Nell]

Yeah. And see, too. I remember when I first moved to LA and met Charlie, and it was like, my first gay friend that I met here, and I started going out with him and his friends. And it was after several weeks or a month or more of hanging out, we hung out a couple times a week. And I was like, do you guys like girls? I'm not, like, attracted to girls. I'm like, girls never hang out with us. And that's sort of something that I love about being gay. Like, where are the girls?

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

Like, let's get some girls into this party. And they were like, oh, we love them. I'm like, well, why don't they ever hang out?

[Autumn]

Where are they?

[Nell]

Yeah. So I do. I think it's just like navigating for some people who aren't used to it. A whole different.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

Dynamic.

[Autumn]

Yeah. Relationship dynamic in general.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

But speaking of relationship, we had another question come in.

[Nell]

Yes.

[Autumn]

Which I think we should hit because. Because it's about protecting your heart.

[Nell]

Right.

[Autumn]

It's about navigating relationships in general.

[Nell]

Right.

[Autumn]

This was like an interesting one.

[Nell]

Okay, I'll read.

[Autumn]

Okay.

[Nell]

I was in an age gap, 31 years relationship for nine months. I'm older, he's younger. We met at a golf outing last year and never in a million years expected to build such a connection with each other. But it happened and it's quite intense and well, and was the entire time. While my friends know him as they are the ones who were with me when we met and my grown sons knew of him, never met him, though the rest of my family and none of his knew of us. That said, holidays were not spent together, which is hard in itself, but we got through them. We decided to end it almost three months ago. And not because anything was wrong, but because eventually one day he wants a family and I am not able to give that to him. Too old. And we thought it would be easier to end it now than to stay together and keep building the connection, which would make it harder down the road to end it. However, we are both still in love with each other and are struggling to move on as neither of us have ever had such a connection with someone and the feelings are so strong. It's been an awful three months emotionally for both of us being apart. We are talking and trying to figure out how to go from here as we both want to continue on, even knowing it will have to end and eventually I have to end eventually and hearts will be broken slash devastated. Once again, we've both said that we want to be in each other's lives in some way regardless and preferably together, but not sure how to navigate that until the time comes that he will want to move on and have that family. I know neither of us have ever been in this situation, but interested to hear someone else's thoughts, perspective. And I just want to say when I read that email, I really did feel so sad for her because you know the saying, the heart wants what it wants and it's like, fuck, man.

[Autumn]

I mean, listen, I get it. I have been in it. Yeah, literally. And I. I mean, I tend to lean towards older men. My Last boyfriend was 17 years older than me and I thought that was a big age gap. But yeah, it also didn't feel like a. At all like I. And I understand like wanting to make it work and sometimes things just don't make it like, stop it from.

[Nell]

Yeah. It's like your souls are supposed to be together. It feels, but you're in the wrong.

[Autumn]

Yeah. You're like, why. Why are things lining up? I do feel for her. 31 years. That's. That is a. That's a big one. And it's only been nine months. And I don't say only because I know nine months can be so intense.

[Nell]

Like, and I mean, I had some relationships that, like, were six months and I.

[Autumn]

And they feel like years.

[Nell]

Yeah. You're just in love with that person. It's so interesting because something. I don't. Don't mean to cut you off, but something that. It almost feels like time doesn't exist in is your heart.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

Like, you can. There's sometimes you know someone forever, and you can take them or leave them, and there's sometimes someone just feels like they totally consume.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

Your heart.

[Autumn]

I think it's interesting. Like, welcome to Autumn's brain. I. You know, we have a conventional way of living. We've talked about this before, right. You can have multiple children and love all of those children the same, and nobody does. You can have multiple friends and love those friends, and that's fine. You can date for years and you can be a serial dater and there's no judgment. But then when it comes to certain things, like who you have kids with or like, oh, once you're, like, married that you can't have, you can't love anybody else. And it is this weird thing because emotions are just emotions. Feelings are feelings, and you connect with people the way you connect with people.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

And because we have this one way that everybody thinks you're supposed to do

[Nell]

it, there's not a lot of space.

[Autumn]

There's not space for like. I'm not, I'm not saying be in some, like, have like, multiple wives kind of situation. I'm not saying that. Okay. That's not what I want.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

But I'm just saying that, like, they have this huge age gap if. If he. If he knows he wants children. She's already. She has full grown children. I mean, if you do the math, 31 years. And he's got to be of age. Like, she's got to be at least in her 50s, if not 60s.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

So, yeah. You're not gonna, like. I mean, unless you want to start talking about, hey, do you guys want to adopt together? But there's. There's all sorts of things that come with that. That 31 years is 31 years more than likely, like if we just go harsh truth, harsh reality, more than likely she will pass before him. With that big of an age gap.

[Nell]

Yeah, hopefully. Honestly, like, that's right.

[Autumn]

Like how everyone involved that happen. So if you were to adopt kids like you're already of the age where you're grown kids, like you could be going into the grandmother. You're. And I'm not being, I'm not putting it down. I'm just saying if you have grown kids, your kids could be having kids, you could adopt and that could be something that you were comfortable with. And it's nobody else's life to judge how you go about that. But if it's a hard. Stop that. Like he wants biological kids. You can't give that to him. You're not okay with a surrogate or an egg donor or whatever, then you have to love somebody enough to release them and it's going to hurt and it's going to suck. And they. He might say that's not what he wants. He wants to be with you. But he has two options. He wants to be with you enough that he can let go of the dream of the family, or at least the way he's seen it, or he has to let go of you to have the dream of the family. Like there, there is there. There's no magic realm, no workaround where it goes some other way. You don't, you don't biologically reverse in age. And he doesn't speed. You know, like there's just so you could choose to love each other and be in each other's lives as friends, but if the physical is there, that's really hard to let go of. And then you have to watch each other move on to people. It's. It's not a good. It's not a fun situation.

[Nell]

I think it's like, it's hard. The practical side of it is have like those kinds of conversations early on. I have a friend right now who is like, has been talking to someone. They're long distance, which obviously I'm not anti that because Nell and I, yeah, that's how we started. But we talked about like, if a thought comes up about big subjects, Nell and I talk about it and we did that early on. And I think that, that especially when you have something like an age, that type of age gap, if you guys want to have some fun, whatever, you're two consenting adults, that's great. But when your heart starts to want more, you have to have the hard conversations and just like think and have them early. So you don't. Six months in when you're head over heels in love, like, oh, you can

[Autumn]

do all those things and still end up. Because I've had it happen. Yeah, we had all the conversations that.

[Nell]

And you think you can control.

[Autumn]

You think you can control it. You think you could just have some fun. It doesn't happen that way. I've had that happen more than once. I've had that happen in the past with a different younger guy that I dated. And he was very upfront, like, I'm not looking for a serious relationship. And I was like, cool. Me either. Like. And so we started dating and having fun and hanging out and then all of a sudden, like, we both started having feelings. But he was much better at being like, this isn't. I'm going to. I will date you, but I'm dating other people. I am being very open and honest about it and I would get my feelings hurt. And I'm like, but I can't be mad because he's being honest.

[Nell]

You're right.

[Autumn]

But so a lot of times you have those conversations and then like you said, the heart wants what it wants and it still leads to hurt feelings.

[Nell]

Yeah. You know, so, yeah, that's what. The person who wrote us is already in this situation. So yeah, you can't go back. Advice is if for anyone who I think have the big conversations early on, kids where you'd want to live what you want your life to look like. And because some people are like, that's so unsexy in the beginning. And I get it. I'm not saying first date, but if you catch those feelings quickly, jump to those topics quickly. And like, even, you know, like when

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you're a maintenance engineer in a beverage manufacturing plant, you keep production lines moving and quality on track because there is no room for slowdowns. With Grainger's vast selection of high quality motors, sensors, belts and hard to find parts, you can get what you need fast and all in one place. So nothing gets in the way of getting the job done. Call 1-800-GRAINGER clickranger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail. Filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Grainger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.

[Nell]

You both want kids, things that people don't even think about talking about.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

You know, like how you want would raise kids. Like what you think about, how you would want to feed your children. I know all that stuff seems like not a big deal, but those are things that make couples want to end up killing each other because you see things so differently. And I'm just like, get to that early. So that's the advice for anyone who meets someone, catches those feelings early on. Like, I know it's unsexy and not the fun part, but that, that and sometimes you can't control it like you said. But how those conversations. But to her, to the person who wrote us, I would, if I was in a conversation, I would ask them. I would ask her, are you able to just, even though it sucks, really hold that time? Like, look at the fun you had, the connection you felt, all the positive things and love him and love him forever and. But loving is sacrifice. No matter how you look at it, at some point loving someone requires sacrifice. And in this way, in this case, loving him requires holding that forever but sacrificing the need to continue it.

[Autumn]

Well, I also want to say something. Here's the thing. It sounds like they were living in a little bit of a bubble. It's been nine months. Immediate friends and her kids knew, but his family didn't. They didn't spend holidays together. You don't actually know. That is still the very early stages of like all the chemicals and intense and passion and sex and. And ah. And you're in this bubble where the whole world hasn't gotten to you yet and everything seems perfect and you can't imagine living without them.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

You don't actually know how it would go if you started living together, started spending those holidays together, opened it up for the world to know about. Like, we all know that in the, like people sometimes in the first year, they think, oh my God, this is the best thing ever. They get married and then three years in they're like, I hate this person.

[Nell]

Right.

[Autumn]

And I should have wa needed.

[Nell]

So no marriage starts planning to end.

[Autumn]

Right.

[Nell]

Like no relationship.

[Autumn]

Yeah. Like everybody. It's all intensity. And then you're like, oh wait, I didn't actually get to know A, B and C. So the fact that there was so many compartments of life missing from that because you weren't doing holidays, you Weren't doing the day to day. I get it. It feels intense because you just had these magical bubble moments of like, oh my God, it could like. And there's again, there's nothing you can do. It's not. They're already broken up. They've been broken up for three months. Like, I'm just saying you might, you might not have ended up feeling the same way long term.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

If you were living fully in it.

[Nell]

Right.

[Autumn]

But being where they're at now, look, if you know it's not going to be anything, you know, he's not going to change how he feels. Obviously you can't change your biological age and what you can and can't do physically provide.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

Family wise, then I get it. There's. There is no. Look, there's no good advice to give here. It's gonna suck until it doesn't suck anymore. And that's really what it is. And the only thing we all know, the only thing that makes it better is time.

[Nell]

Yeah, I was gonna say I. I have two pieces of advice. One, because the email said something about somehow being together until he's ready to do that family thing. Don't do that.

[Autumn]

Don't do that.

[Nell]

That you're just going to cause more pain. I know it feels good in the moments. I, I don't mean to downplay or degrade this experience with the other, but it's like when an addict needs a fix.

[Grainger Announcer]

Right.

[Nell]

They feel better in the moment, but it's not progressing them in life. And that's how these emotional like feelings. I know that you're in love and, and that, and it sucks that that you are right now. And. But don't do that. Don't say, okay, well maybe we can play for six more months because you don't have anyone right now that's going to have kids with you. Don't do that.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

And the second piece of advice is, you know, I think about how when someone is in recovery, how they have a sponsor. So like say if you're an AA and you really want to drink, you call that friend. It sounds like how you said, because she's in a bubble. Maybe she hasn't opened up a lot to her friends or maybe she's been vague. She hasn't given the specific details because there's also a lot of shame around falling for someone with that big of an age gap. And especially it's even way less common for an older woman.

[Autumn]

Right.

[Nell]

To be with. You know, I don't even get me my soapbox about how women are treated unfairly. Men can do that women can't do. Because I can talk about that.

[Autumn]

That's a whole other episode.

[Nell]

Episodes, new show. But I feel like have a friend or a couple friends that you just put it all out there. Like everything that you're feeling, the experiences you had, how much you're suffering and there's got to be. I hope to God you have some friends in your life who will hear you and see you and not judge you. And that as you're going through this, this inevitable, difficult, heart wrenching time, you can reach out to your friends and lean on them. Because we all need a quote sponsor sometimes we all need that. Can I talk to you about this? I'm really independent. Like I can, I have. I don't think you can think of a lot of times in our friendship that I've called you like, girl, I need.

[Autumn]

No, I don't know if ever. And I'm the one who calls you constantly and I'm like, like, just vomit all over you.

[Nell]

But there are random times where I'll call someone and also sometimes it's even like, I know I'm such a mama's boy. It's pathetic. But I'll call my mom and be like, it's like, I just need to talk out the situation. And I would just say to that person, the woman who wrote us, if you don't have someone because it was such a bubble, find that. Because having to process this love as a secret, you know, if your adult children are the only ones who know, you might not be comfortable really confiding in them about it. Find someone that you can just sort of lean on and talk to as you make the choice and boundary to that. This isn't gonna work. So you have to end it, you know?

[Autumn]

Yeah. Trying to do the. Like she said, oh, we want to stay in each other's lives until he's ready to move on. No, that's not gonna work because first of all, you're not gonna move on. And you're stopping yourself from finding somebody that maybe you could be compatible with. He's probably not going to really move on to find that person to have the family with. So you're stopping him from having something he wants.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

Or he is going to move on and then you're going to be mad about it and be like, I can't believe you did it. Like, it's just, it's messy. I get it. Like, it's not easy, it's not fun. But it. That's the reality of it. So I think again, it's. It's about time. It's about doing things, like finding things and ways to occupy your time. Yeah, really, that's what it comes down to. And I know the nights are the hardest. You go to sleep, you're thinking about the person, you miss them so much, you want to talk to them, they're your best friend. Like, that can be really hard. So having friends to hang out, out with, doing things with your kids, planning things, finding ways to get just back into the world, I think is so important.

[Nell]

Absolutely.

[Autumn]

And by the way, that has nothing to do. That's just a breakup.

[Nell]

Right.

[Autumn]

That's like a breakup in general. Like, you go through a breakup, you just lost a little piece of your life, and it's something that you thought was going to be there for a while. You have to figure out how to, well, fill that. I don't mean it in a. Like a. Like, fill that space.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

And I'm not saying that in the, like, oh, just replace the person. I'm just saying, like, there were all those moments in your day where you would share with that person, see that person, can't wait to go do something with that person, plan things with that person. Now all that time has to be filled.

[Nell]

You have to create new neuropathways.

[Autumn]

Neuroplasticity, guys.

[Nell]

But I mean, not. But to your point, like, this is a situation where an ending is inevitable. And so continuing down, the ending gets messy and one of you are resentful. And it. So even though it sucks right now, you're both in a position where because you love each other, you can acknowledge that you can't continue. And as painful as that is, that also in hindsight, if you can get through, you'll be able to look back on it and appreciate that more than all of a sudden, you said hateful things to each other.

[Autumn]

Being bitter, you kept me hanging out, or things like that. Yeah, exactly. You know, you said the ending is inevitable. The only thing I would say is it's not necessarily inevitable. If. And it really comes down to him, unfortunately, that sucks when it's out of your control. If he were to decide he was okay not having a family or not having a family in the conventional way of like, having his wife give birth and. And you guys had all those conversations of, like, we're okay with a surrogate, we're okay with adopting. He understands that he's probably going to be a single dad at some point, like, because she's older. Like, we're gonna have to explain this to kids. And our kids might be the same age as, as my grandkids. Like all those things. Not saying it can't happen, but you either need to start having those conversations or you need to continue to move on.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

So it's either like, yeah, if you're going to be in it. And by the way, if you're going to be in each other's lives and like say, okay, we're going to be friends in each other's lives, that could happen too. But that's still going to require time. You're not going to jump from passionate being in love to I could just be your friend. Yeah, that's not going to happen because you know damn well you're going to see him, he's going to see you. Heat. And all of a sudden.

[Nell]

Right. Right.

[Autumn]

Things are all spiraled back up again. So you're gonna have to allow some time to go by and you could maybe say like, look, this could sometimes use a pain. Like, let's not talk for the next four weeks. Let's put a date on the calendar in four weeks. We'll meet up, we'll have coffee or something. We'll catch up, we'll go out in public where this doesn't lead to anything.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

And then have a little catch up and then go about your way. Maybe you do that for a little while. So you, you kind of have this I'm gonna see them in this amount of time so it doesn't feel like I never talk to him again situation. But also you're giving your each other's space.

[Nell]

Yeah.

[Autumn]

To diffuse a little bit. Yeah.

[Nell]

But I told I had someone who. My first love. Actually, my first. Yeah, the first. My first gay love, which is my first love. Like that. Like this intense feeling that I have had when we realized that. And at the time it was right now, this isn't what we want. Like there was still open for the future. But I remembered having to tell him, like, because we were like, but we can still be friends and we still are today friends. But at the time I said, I need you to stop calling me.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

Because every time my phone rings, my heart hopes it's you.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

And I need to know it's not want.

[Autumn]

Yeah.

[Nell]

I need that to be out of my life.

[Autumn]

And then they stop calling you and you're like, why have you called me?

[Nell]

Sucks. But no, it's like, this is what I need, you know?

[Autumn]

I know, I get it. Yeah.

[Nell]

Yeah. So I just want to say to the person who wrote us I know it sucks and no advice is going to make it not painful.

[Autumn]

Yeah there is nothing we could say that will make it hurtless.

[Nell]

Yeah time big but and time and find find a shoulder to cry on that that's what friends are for and I really think that that could help you while you're going through it. Yeah so I have loved this has

[Autumn]

been diving into these phone yeah I know we're getting some really good ones. Yeah moved off the anal topic so

[Nell]

that's great for but you never know we might come knocking on your back

[Autumn]

door

[Nell]

and on that note, we'll see you next week. If you have a phone, a friend you want to hear our advice about something you're experiencing or dealing with with shoot us an [e-mail] and write phone a friend in the subject line if you remember to that helps us catch catch it from that helps us all

[Autumn]

the spam There's a lot you can also find us on social everything's perfect official on Instagram and we'll see you guys next week.

[Nell]

That's right. See you then.

[Autumn]

Bye.

[Grainger Announcer]

Grainger knows when you're a procurement manager for an office park, you're not managing one building, you're managing all of them. And to stay ahead, you need to see through walls and around corners. Lights about to fail, filters ready to clog H Vac on its last leg. If you wait until something breaks, you're already behind. Count on Granger for quality products, easy reordering and 24. 7 support. Call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done.