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- [00:00]
A
When energy costs jump, everyone feels it. At the bowser on the power bill and across the economy. I'm Alan Kohler. And I'm Carrington Clark. On ABC Business Daily's fuelcast, we break down the latest in fuel energy and the forces driving prices. It's a quick, clear update on what's moving, why it matters, and what it can mean for your wallet and the wider economy. Find FuelCast in the ABC Business Daily feed on ABC. Listen or wherever you get your podcasts. This is an ABC podcast.
- [00:35]
B
Hi there, I'm Dominique Bayans. This bonus episode of the NAN UP4 is going to be a little bit different to what you've heard so far. As the podcast has been rolling out, we've had a bunch of people get in touch. So today I'm going to bring you an update of what's come to light in the past few weeks and a big one. For the first time ever, Tony Popich's family are going to talk.
- [01:02]
A
You need me sitting with this near my face?
- [01:04]
B
Yeah. So how can we angle you? Yeah. And we've had hundreds of comments on the YouTube episodes and one of them was wondering where Tony's family are. Well, I've actually been in touch sporadically with Tony's brother Joe for months, but he's been really reluctant to speak, which I totally get. They must be really hard memories to revisit.
- [01:27]
A
You know what you're doing.
- [01:28]
B
I'll let you, like maybe just bring
- [01:29]
A
yourself a little like there about there. Yeah.
- [01:32]
B
But after hearing me give an interview on the radio about the podcast, he got in touch and said he was ready to talk.
- [01:40]
A
I wrestled with the idea on and off for a lot of times and most of the time it came that I wasn't going to talk to you.
- [01:47]
B
So here is the extended chat I had with Joe about his brother Tony, the one of the Nan up four who's been the hardest to get a sense of. It's a Friday afternoon when I drive up to Perth through those forests of the south west. Joe's just knocked off work and he's wearing a black cap, metal framed reading glasses and high vis. I'm struck by how similar he looks to Tony. They could almost be twins. He's got the same olive skin, round face and piercing eyes. When Joe smiles, it's that same boyish smile I've seen in photos of Tony. I can tell he's pretty nervous to be here. Let's just to start off so we've got you in your own words. Do you just want to Introduce yourself and tell me what your connection is to Tony.
- [02:39]
A
Yeah, absolutely. Well my name's Joe obviously and I'm Tony's brother, three years younger, he's obviously three years older and yeah we lived together, worked together and yeah we just, you know, we did what brothers did, got up to some mischief and just you know, partied and you know, joked around and just did what young guys did at the time. Yeah.
- [03:03]
B
Jo starts telling me about his and Tony's childhood in Toojay, a farming town about an hour and a half drive north east of Perth on the edge of WA's wheat belt. Tony was the second oldest of four siblings and his family ran a fruit and veg shop and Joe and Tony would help unload produce from trucks, serve customers and carry their groceries to the car.
- [03:26]
A
We often talked as we got older and we looked back and we thought we were probably doing 12 hour days as 15 or 16 year old kids, you know and you look back down you think that's a pretty full on day. But we were happy to do it. It was good fun.
- [03:37]
B
How would you describe Tony's personality as a kid?
- [03:41]
A
As a kid, easy going, fun, light, very light energy, you know, like just a good fun kid to be around. As he got older he sort of progressed around, you know, a bit of painting and stuff like that. Bit arty that way. Went down that field for a little bit. He was quite talented but didn't really do much with it. He just did it as a hobby. He liked his garden. Wherever he sort of moved to he always made a bit of a garden or some pot plants or something of some sort.
- [04:07]
B
This makes me think of Tony as an adult taking on handyman jobs and working at the nursery where he sold Jody that bronze horse statue.
- [04:17]
A
We eventually moved to Northam. I think I left there in about, I think it was 92 to move into Perth. To move to Perth. Yeah. And I literally needed the roadmap to find Main street which was just over the hill.
- [04:28]
B
What about Tony, how did he adjust to city life?
- [04:31]
A
Yeah, I think he loved it.
- [04:32]
B
What was your friendship or relationship like with Tony? How would you sum that up?
- [04:38]
A
Pretty open really. You know, we didn't argue but you know we could swear at each other and call each other whatever we wanted and no one got offended. You know, you just got over it and just moved on.
- [04:48]
B
Did Tony kind of take you under his wing when I guess like going out and doing that sort of stuff as you moved into adulthood?
- [04:56]
A
No, not really. I couldn't keep up with him. You Know he was a bit cosmopolitan or more cosmopolitan than what I am and yeah, I think he thrived on the nightclub scene for a while.
- [05:07]
B
Did you ever go nightclubbing with him?
- [05:09]
A
A couple of times, yeah, it wasn't really my thing so I just stayed for a couple of drinks and then kind of went home. He was quite happy just doing his own thing and yeah, he'd be on the dance floor pretty quickly and I was probably a bit shy and I'd rather have a drink at the bar while he's out there dancing, strutting his stuff. But yeah.
- [05:25]
B
In the early 90s two clubs dominated the Perth nightclub scene. The Pinocchios and Rumours. They were opposite each other on Murray street in Perth cbd.
- [05:36]
A
He was a good dancer, he had the moves. Yeah, a lot better dancer than me, that's for sure.
- [05:40]
B
What do you remember about him when he was in his early 20s?
- [05:44]
A
He kept to himself a lot just I think at the time when we came to Perth. He made some close friends at the time and they just sort of stuck together really. It wasn't a big social network, it was just a couple of really good close friends. He was a very open person. He was non judgmental to most people or most things and very open and accepting and so in saying that he just developed a pretty carefree sort of nature towards life and lifestyle.
- [06:13]
B
In his 20s when he wasn't on the dance floor, Tony was living in a beachside suburb of Perth with a company car and a good salary, working a 9 to 5 job for a major supermarket.
- [06:25]
A
He was stable, he was focused, he was, I suppose, if you like, goal orientated and had some purpose in his life. Yeah, at that time he prided himself on his grooming. Yeah, he was very particular on his grooming and very fussy. I always used to say to him whatever you touch turns to gold.
- [06:49]
B
But when Tony was In his late twenties that all changed. As we know in 1996 Tony left a long term relationship, quit his well paying job and he also gave away a lot of his possessions.
- [07:04]
A
He had some really expensive watches and he just gave them away and just I said what happened? Your watch? He goes, I gave it away. I don't need that sort of stuff anymore. That means nothing to me. It's not like an overnight thing, it was a gradual thing and I had no, no desire for anything materialistic in any way, shape or form. Any materialism in any way, shape or form. Started to grow his hair long and all that sort of stuff and you know, wear the happy pants as I used to call them and listen to the gurus on what were CDs back then, you know.
- [07:35]
B
What did you make of that when that was all? When he I guess started to change in that way?
- [07:39]
A
He went to a few of these alternate type seminars, if you want to call them that for a better word. And I remember going with him to one because I was living with him at the time and I thought I'll go along and have a listen to see what someone's sort of trying to preach to him. You know, I remember parking there and walking in there. It might have been, I don't know, 50, 100 people there or something like that. Some so called guru spreading his words up in front of everybody. I sat there under sufferance in all truthfulness. But yeah, I don't remember much of it, just remember thinking it was load of codswallop.
- [08:14]
B
What was the kind of gist of like the theme of what they were talking about?
- [08:18]
A
Yeah, it was along the lines of, you know, get rid of all your possessions, follow what I'm going to tell you and you know, he's shining the light and follow his path basically. I think he was just looking for answers really, you know, whether they were in the right place or the wrong place, I don't know. As we left I said, you know, I gave you my opinion what I thought of the whole thing. I think he was just quite happy to, to follow something. And unfortunately what he followed led to his just a little bit of delusional state really at the end of the day and became vulnerable with his life and his lifestyle and his thoughts.
- [08:55]
B
It's hard to pin down dates with Joe, but by 1999 Tony's life became pretty nomadic. He left Perth and travelled around Australia.
- [09:05]
A
He went to Nimbin for a while, spent some time there. He spent some time in Darwin. He liked Darwin, Queensland. He travelled around there for a bit.
- [09:14]
B
In 2002 Tony was back in Perth and as we know had moved into a house in Floriot with Simon Cadwell and Chantelle McDougal. Jo vividly remembers going to check out Tony's new place and meeting Simon.
- [09:29]
A
I thought I'll go and say g', day, you know, catch up, have a beer with him or something. And I got there and he was living out the back in the backyard in a tent. It was a four bedroom home, pardon the language but I just said what the hell are you doing living in the blooming tent? You know, at the back there that time he goes, oh, you know Simon likes His space. And he was Simon this, Simon that, three bags full, Simon sort of thing. We went inside and we were just sitting on the couch having a bit of a chat about something, you know, and Simon came out and had a book in his hand. I remember Simon saying to me, oh, you know, I've got this book. I think to me he was saying, I think you're ready for it, I'll give you a copy. I remember the book because Tony had the book. It was called Service of the Divine Plan. I was a bit shy and meek and mild back then. I just sort of said to him, thanks anyway, but it's not for me and you're welcome to keep it. But certainly got bad vibes off the guy and often think that I'd really wish to turn back time to handle that situation a hell of a lot differently than what I did.
- [10:24]
B
What was their house like? Do you remember when you went inside, anything about it?
- [10:30]
A
It was neat and clean and nothing untoward, that you would go, oh, what's happening here? Apart from maybe some. What's the word? Manipulation. Coercive control, they call it now. I suppose that probably was quite rife in that household. You could feel it.
- [10:47]
B
Tell me more about that. How could you feel it?
- [10:50]
A
Oh, just with the way that Tony, I could see, was being manipulated and almost, you know, totally controlled by this guy's every whim, you know.
- [11:04]
B
And did you get the sense at that point that he was like this guru and Tony was maybe a follower of him?
- [11:11]
A
Yeah, absolutely. To this day, I don't know how they met or how they came into contact with each other or what the connection was. I really don't know and I probably should have asked the question, but he just sort of teamed up with them. Then I think Shantelle, Leila and Simon moved on somewhere. And Tammy, he did his own thing for a while, did some travelling, went back to Nunup and then they happened to be down there. And when he said he'd reconnected with them again, I kind of thought, oh, you know, this probably not a good thing. Gave my opinions at the time to him. What I thought as a brother and as a loved one, he did want a bar of it and he was quite happy just doing his thing, but he was just, I think, just losing direction more and more. You know, we all live our own lives and make our own choices. Bit by bit, I think the communication sort of became longer and longer, the distance between communications.
- [12:07]
B
In 2006, Tony bought a caravan and parked it behind the blue farmhouse. Simon and Chantelle were renting when Tony made the odd trip up to Perth to visit his brother. Joe says he'd complain about the EMFs, those electromagnetic frequencies that we heard about when the power transformer was installed next to the Blue farmhouse.
- [12:29]
A
His comment was, you know, as soon as I get to Batmandra, you know, I can feel the EMFs off the power lines and this and that. And I just say to him it was a load of bloody rubbish, you know, what are you talking about? He could sense people's dreams and all this sort of stuff. So I thought, you know, he was well and truly in a different realm of thinking.
- [12:45]
B
One person that I spoke to who had met Tony mentioned that he. He spoke about the idea of an Armageddon day or he had kind of doomsday beliefs. Was that something that he ever talked with you? About?
- [13:01]
A
A little bit. I mean, he would always say that they're here to serve and they are servers of a divine plan and something greater and all that sort of talk, but of a doomsday and an ending day? No.
- [13:17]
B
Did he struggle with depression or any other kind of.
- [13:22]
A
You know, I look back and often think that, and I don't think he did. No. I don't think he did. A lot of people would say, yeah, he must have been depressed and this and that. I don't think so. I lived with him and I know him very well. No, he's just basically just couldn't give a shit about a lot of things that we all do. You know, he got a bit. Bit paranoid. I think for a while that people were watching him and there's groups of people down there that are watching them and they know what they're up to. We're just here to do. To serve and to do what we're doing. And then I'd sort of try and put some reality and say, well, you know, how can Simon tell you that he's serving? You can't really do too much if you don't get off your backside at all, you know, and you've got other people running. What. What serving is he actually doing? You know, like. But, you know, he was quite adamant. Simon's way was the way, and whatever Simon said that was. That was gospel and that's the direction he was gonna head. I just thought, you know, he's certainly not in a good state really, you know, mentally, he's not quite right. That sounding rude or disrespectful. His thought pattern wasn't as healthy as it probably could have been A month
- [14:34]
B
before he Vanished with the others. Tony spoke to Joe about starting up a new lawn mowing business. He even outlaid precious cash to buy a ute for it. But then without explanation, he sold the ute and as we know, disappeared.
- [14:51]
A
He was all excited about it and to get it up and running and obviously they just decided to leave.
- [14:57]
B
The last time Joe spoke to Tony, he got a call from his mum just days before his brother vanished. Tony was at their house and told them he was leaving, but he wouldn't say where he was going.
- [15:09]
A
I sort of said, where are you going? He said, oh, I can't really tell you, you know. I said, when are you going? Can't tell you. He just kind of said that, you know, they're going to go away for a while.
- [15:16]
B
How did he sound? Was he excited or.
- [15:18]
A
No, pretty subdued sort of a conversation. Sounded like it was official's not the word, but it was a definite. It was like a definite that they were going. There was no doubt about it, he was going somewhere, they were going somewhere, you know. I said, yeah, that's okay. Just sort of touch base and let us know how you're going. Just give us a call or touch base with someone so we know you're okay, you know. Yeah, I might do, I might not. I said, well, you know, if you don't, you're, you know, you're a bit selfish. But sounded like he wasn't going to and he obviously never did. And that was unfortunately the last time I spoke to him.
- [15:56]
B
So he never mentioned Brazil to you?
- [15:58]
A
Not at that time. Previously he said, we may go to Brazil, there's some people there. Simon's got some people he knows there. I think that was just a big decoy for people to send them on a wild goose chase.
- [16:09]
B
Tony's last known movements are just as confusing to Jo as they are to me. One theory is that on the 15th of July 2007, Tony caught a train up to Perth under a false name and his driver's licence was used to check into a backpacker's in the inner city suburb of Northbridge. Later that evening he ordered a pizza from Kings Park, a popular tourist spot which overlooks the city. And even though Joe was living in Perth, his brother didn't contact him during that visit. But what Jo does confirm is the next day he received a package in the mail with power of attorney forms, Tony's bank statements and superannuation policy details.
- [16:56]
A
I just hung onto them because I didn't really know what to do with them, you know, I thought, well, Maybe one day he'll come back. And then time just dragged out and dragged out and dragged out. We never heard anything. It just got to the point where, you know, you haven't heard for a while and then you kind of. Your concerns kicked in and we thought, well, shit, you know, do we go to the police and report it as missing persons? I don't know how it ended up getting to the media. I don't know how that happened, but I just know I was swamped from all sorts of media in the space of about 24 hours. From people at the door to cars at the front, to the phone not stopping, and from the WHO magazine to the Women's Day to the TV stations and radio stations, everything. I just found it very overwhelming. It was like magpies flying onto a chip, you know, it was a frenzy.
- [17:59]
B
Joe doesn't know if Tony knew Simon Cadwell's true identity was actually Gary Felton, but he does believe his brother was under his control.
- [18:09]
A
To find out that Simon Cadwell was really Gary Felton and he was here on a false passport. My initial reaction to that was, well, you know, if someone's got a false passport, either they've done something bad in the past they're running away from, or they're about to do something and they're going to run away from. Why else would you have a false passport?
- [18:30]
B
One of the things that came out in the inquest was Simon had told one of his followers of plans for a suicide pact.
- [18:41]
A
How.
- [18:42]
B
How do you reconcile that
- [18:46]
A
possibly might have done? I mean, he came across from what Tony was saying as a guru of some sort. He may have well, said that to them because it seemed to have that whole vibe about it of he was the shining light, he was Jesus Christ.
- [19:06]
B
Do you feel like he was brainwashed by Simon?
- [19:08]
A
Yeah, absolutely, yeah, without a doubt.
- [19:15]
B
Is there anything you think people have got wrong about this?
- [19:19]
A
Look, everyone's going to have their opinions and their says and as I said, it's a mystery. And until you don't know, there's a million and one scenarios that could have happened. And as a family, and I speak again just for myself, but these million one scenarios still go through your head. So you don't know what's happened, we don't know the facts. It could be this and it could be that and it leads to this and it leads to that and it shows. It could be this. But again, there's no facts. Who knows? Who knows what's happened? And that's a very difficult thing to deal with.
- [19:52]
B
Jo has brought Tony to life for me in a way I haven't been able to grasp so far. Other people have also been in touch. A former employer who said he was a hard worker but never opened up about his personal life. He gave them a tree which they planted and still have. Another person got in touch saying he'd met Tony on two occasions. He remembered how handsome he was, but also that he seemed really lost. I've also had more information coming to light about Chantelle that I haven't been able to confirm until this point. Until an email from a man living in South Australia came in, saying he'd met her in person, only he'd known her as Shandy. You'll remember Simon Cookerman, the guy Shantelle dated briefly in the late 90s, who she met Simon Cadwell through. The one who turned up in Nannup claiming Cadwell wasn't who he said he was. We've actually been in touch with Kookerman, but he didn't want to do an interview. But his stepdad, Stan Harness, is able to tell me something I think is significant about what was happening for Chantelle in that time when she was travelling Australia between leaving Melbourne and arriving in Perth. I spoke to him on a video call, but the audio quality is pretty bad because Internet in country Australia. Right.
- [21:13]
A
I got to meet Chantelle, or Shandy, as I knew her.
- [21:17]
B
So I'm going to summarise most of what he said. In the late 90s, Stan was living in Adelaide with his wife Jennifer Cookerman's mum, when she received a phone call from Cookerman. He was living in Melbourne, but he wanted to know if he could come and stay and bring Chantelle with him.
- [21:33]
A
She was younger than I expected. I also thought she was perhaps a bit naive, staying with a couple of strangers on her own.
- [21:41]
B
Chantelle had brought a stack of Simon Cadwell's books with her and she spent the week in Adelaide, going around to New Age bookstores trying to sell them. Stan remembers the books. He said it seemed like there were plagiarized bits. It talked about the world ending. But as Shantell was getting ready to leave, Stan came across something else that worried him. Shantelle's bag was on the floor, sitting there unzipped, and he saw a bunch of drugs inside. Several ounces of marijuana and lsd. Stan says it was his son Paul who saw the lsd, reporting back to Stan that there were around two dozen sheets of acid. I can't verify this with Paul because he died a few years after Chantelle's visit, but that is a serious amount. With all of this, Stan figured the reason Chantelle was in Adelaide was actually not about getting the book into New Age bookshops after all, but about getting such a large quantity of drugs.
- [22:42]
A
But I was aware that she was probably in a dangerous situation. I sort of also felt there was nothing I could do about it.
- [22:52]
B
I've heard about Simon Cadwell's drug taking and how he did so much LSD in his 20s that it blew his mind. And I have heard a reference to drug use in the group before, but it's not been something I've been able to confirm. And her friends that I've spoken to say they never saw Chantelle take drugs. What Stan has told me has helped me understand a little more about what Chantelle was doing over those months of travelling when her parents, Jim and Cath, thought she'd made a break from from Cadwell. It makes me wonder if that trip across Australia was less about finding adventure and more about getting the word out about Simon's teachings. If you can keep adding to this picture, please get in touch. Also, I'm hoping next week I'll be able to bring you another bonus episode that we've been working on for a long time, an interview with the police. We reached out to them in September 2025, but they haven't sat down for an interview yet, but it sounds like they're going to. So hopefully next week I can take you inside the police investigation. Looking for the Nan Up 4 this has been a bonus episode of Expanse the Nan Up 4. I'm host Dominic Bayans. This episode was edited by Louise Milan. You've been listening to an ABC podcast.