← Extend Podcast with Darshan Shah, MD
Extend Podcast with Darshan Shah, MD
137. Ariana Thacker: Mold Toxicity, Treatment Protocols + Genetic Susceptibility
00:46:26
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- [00:03]
A
Welcome to xtend with me, Dr. Darshan Shah. A podcast dedicated to cutting edge science research tools and protocols designed to help you extend your health span. Having become one of the youngest doctors in the country at the age of 21 and trained and board certified at the Mayo Clinic, I've accumulated three decades of practice as a board certified surgeon and longevity expert. Over that time, I've discovered that a mere 20% of health knowledge yields 80% of the results. When it comes to your health span, we are living in a new era where we are creating a new healthcare system no longer focused on disease management, but achieving optimal health and vitality. Join me as I interview world renowned experts offering you a step by step guide to proactively avoid disease and most importantly, extend your health span. In today's episode, I'm sitting down with Arianna Thacker. She's a chemical engineer, she's a venture capitalist and the founder and CEO of a new company called Moltco. We're going to explore mold toxicity. It's one of the most overlooked drivers of chronic illness and why so many patients are struggling for years without clear answers or any help from the traditional medical establishment. After Founding Conscience vc, an early stage firm investing in science driven startups, Ariana's own health crisis caused by toxic mold exposure led her to build moldco. It's a platform dedicated to identifying and treating mold toxicity. Her journey reveals how environmental illness disrupt mitochondrial energy and immune signaling, gut health, hormones and neurologic function all at once, and why these patterns are so often missed by conventional care. We're going to dive into why mold illness rarely shows up in standard lab work. And how genetics determine who gets sick even in the same household. And why healing only works when medical treatment and environmental remediation happen together at the same time. You're going to learn so much about mold and this really important aspect of our health that's been ignored for way too long. Welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much for joining us.
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B
Thank you Dr. Shah, for drawing attention to such an important issue.
- [02:15]
A
Yeah, it's really, it's really an important issue and I'm really glad that you're here to talk about this very important topic. And you know, before when I was in a traditional medicine, whenever someone came in with all of these vague symptoms all the time, they basically were ignored. I mean, we didn't know what to do with them. There was not really a pill that we could prescribe them. The lab work didn't tell us anything of use, you know, and so we just Kind of said it's probably all in your head and, or it's something we can't do anything about, you know, wait it out. So is that kind of what happened to you?
- [02:49]
B
Pretty close. And I, I, I could say that I don't, I don't blame standard medical practice for that approach. Right. Without the right tools to figure out what the issue is, it's hard to come up with the treatment plan. Um, essentially my story was being ping ponged to different specialists. And like you said earlier in, in the podcast, most of the lab showed up largely normal. So it was even more confusing what, what was going on.
- [03:12]
A
Right. And so then how, what was like the breakthrough moment for you, Arianna, where you, you figured out your symptoms were due to something else besides what traditional medicine had to diagnose and offer?
- [03:22]
B
Yeah. So I'm an engineer and a numbers person, so I like data. And after a lot of dead ends, going to different specialists and doing labs and imaging tests, I had my light bulb moment when a home inspector came and there were highly toxic levels of mold found in my home in Miami. Close to 35,000 spores per meter cubed.
- [03:42]
A
Wow. Okay. So I don't think many people know what is the dangerous levels of that, but we'll get into that in a little bit because I really think before we talk about mold as a diagnosis or how to treat it, I'd love to hear from you kind of the symptoms that you were suffering and that, you know, I'm sure you're talking to a lot of people with mold, kind of. What are the things that people are suffering with that lead you to maybe look into mold as a potential diagnosis?
- [04:09]
B
Yeah, absolutely. So you touched on this briefly, but mold related illness shows up as a multi system illness in the body. So it's not just one acute symptom, but for example, persistent migraine. But it shows up as several symptoms across several systems in the body. So that includes brain fog, fatigue, gastrointestinal issues, frequent urination that's touching across different parts of the body, not just one symptom. So that's just one of the signs biologically and then in your environment too. So some of the telltale signs includes visible mold, of course, but also an earthy, musty odor, history of leaks, water damage and flooding. And some of the less obvious signs also includes peeling paint, warped floors and cracking walls. So these are just some of the signs in your built environment and in your body to look for?
- [04:59]
A
Yeah, and I think a lot of people, you know, they're looking at Their first of all, their symptoms in their body, and they don't know what they're due to. So I see a lot of women that come to our clinic and they're in their mid-30s or 40s, and they're experiencing like perimenopausal types of symptoms. And I think a lot of times it gets discounted to maybe perimenopause or hormone deficiencies, nutrient deficiencies as well. And you know, you mentioned frequent urination is also a symptom.
- [05:28]
B
Yeah. So frequent urination to the point where you're getting up in the middle of the night to use the bathroom. So that's, that's one of the telltale signs and 100% on the women's health issues. Dr. Scott McMahon, our medical director, has seen that across his patient population. He has estimates roughly two thirds of his female patients experience multiple miscarriages, missed periods, painful periods, heavy periods, as well as other hormonal disruptions too.
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A
Yeah. And so is there also a relationship with infertility?
- [06:02]
B
That is our guess based on what we're seeing so far. And we've also seen anecdotes too, of once individuals are out of the mold environment and after treatment, they do end up being able to have children. So it's still very early to make that claim, but we're already seeing some promising signs.
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A
Amazing. And you mentioned gut health as well, kind of. What are some of the symptoms people experience with their gut?
- [06:25]
B
Yeah, it shows up as IBS type symptoms, so alternating constipation, diarrhea, as well as food sensitivities. A portion of our patients also have elevated anti gliadin antibodies too, so they have a sensitivity to gluten. It's often recommended that we cut out gluten from our diet for some of our patients. So these are just some of the GI issues. There's often as well, abdominal pain too.
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A
Yeah. And then I think some of the more kind of obvious symptoms, or maybe not so obvious, are upper respiratory symptoms and asthma, inability to breathe, runny nose. Can you talk about that a little bit?
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B
Yeah. There is a study that attributed 21% of asthma cases to mold and dampness. So mold related illness is a different animal from the respiratory illnesses that we see, such as asthma and fungal infections too. So there's also allergies when you have mold exposure. So mold related illness is more so the inflammatory response to mold in your environment. So your first line of defense, your immune system goes haywire, and then you experience this ongoing, even sometimes chronic inflammation in the body due to Mold in your environment too. But there are some patients that have overlap with respiratory illnesses as well as mold related illness.
- [07:46]
A
Got it. And you know, I think there's basically two different ways mold can affect you. And the way I look at it is actual colonization with the mold in your upper respiratory system. So the actual mold organism, but then there's also the toxins from the mold as well. Right. Can you talk about the difference between the two?
- [08:04]
B
Yeah. The analogy I use to explain how the toxins impact the body is so your, your body's a castle. You have all these defense systems and you have guards in your castle. So that's your immune system. And when you have these microbial invaders, it's not just mold. When you have water damage, there's also bacteria too, and particulate matter and VOCs and mycotoxins and fragments of the cell wall. So there's this microbial soup in the air when you breathe the air in, in a water damaged building. So your body tends to respond to that in a number of ways. So for, there's a, there's a stat that 24% of the population has a genetic susceptibility to where these defenders can't really fight off those mold those, the microbial exposure. So how that shows up is your body can't distinguish friend versus foe. So you have these invaders coming in and it looks a lot like your own security system. So the alarms are going off because it can tell that something's off, but it's just not sure what. So that's what happens when you're exposed to toxins, invaders come in, the immune system gets confused and dysregulated, and then there's a state of ongoing inflammation. So the alarm system not turning off.
- [09:18]
A
Yeah, absolutely. And then you get this almost chronic inflammatory response that's continuing for long periods of time. And people, when they experience chronic inflammation, can show up in all sorts of different symptoms throughout the body. And not to mention, it can also lead to long term chronic diseases as well. So it's so important that to keep insisting that you go down the rabbit hole of trying to figure out what's going on if you're experiencing these symptoms.
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B
Absolutely.
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A
Yeah. So, you know, one of the things that I think a lot of people have questions about is in the same household, you have maybe three, four or five people living. Right. And one person can be severely affected by the mold and the other people in the house are like, what's wrong with you? Why are you sick all the time? And why is there a difference between why some people get affected and some people have no effect from the mold that's growing in their homes.
- [10:05]
B
Yeah. Thank you for highlighting this. It's a. It's a common misconception around the health impacts of mold, that it would impact everyone the same in the household. That is not quite the case for quite a few reasons. They call this the canary effect. So the canary in the coal mine. And the reason for that is one, that earlier genetic susceptibility, stat. So the 24% of the US population that can't really effectively tag and detox the toxins that they're exposed to, that's one layer. If you're immunocompromised, you're just a lot more susceptible to your environment. And three, everyone's health status is quite different, and that's tied to the food we eat, whether we have movement and exercise or not, as well as our own other biological factors that get baked into that. There could also be a scenario where one room has more acute exposure than the other rooms, or a certain individual spending a lot more time in the household than the other. So there's just so many different factors that go into that recipe.
- [10:59]
A
Yeah, you're absolutely right. And it could be something as simple as if there's one person in the family that is traveling more than the others, maybe for work, or, you know, if people are working in two different environments, they could have a double exposure from their work environment, also their home environment. It's just. So there's so many different factors that play into your resistance to the symptoms of mold. And one of the things that I talk about a lot too, is if there's one person in the family that's been diagnosed with mold toxicity, we usually end up testing the whole family, because even though they might not be experiencing symptoms, they're still developing that inflammatory state.
- [11:34]
B
Exactly. And thank you for touching on travel, too. Exposure can also happen in airports and hotels and often do. And testing the whole family is very smart as well, because that genetic susceptibility, one part comes from mom, one part comes from dad. So testing the parents, also very important. And the siblings in the household.
- [11:54]
A
Yeah. I remember a few months ago, I was traveling to do a talk in Key west and outside of Florida, and I walked into the hotel room. I'm like, I cannot stay here. Like, I could tell immediately I started sneezing and blowing my nose and it smelled like mold. And I had to find another hotel. And so glad I did, because, you know, the. The exposure, the amount of time you're exposed, it builds up pretty rapidly, especially with the, with the number of spores in the environment.
- [12:23]
B
Yeah, Florida's very tough for traveling. I usually don't look forward to my Florida trips.
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A
You don't live in Florida anymore?
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B
No, I had to get out. I did a lot of home hopping to try to find a clean environment. It's extremely tough in Florida.
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A
Yeah. Can you talk a little bit more about what are the areas in the United States that are more likely to have mold in the home environments or the work environments? And why is that?
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B
Yeah, beyond just whether you're in a tropical area with high humidity or in a coastal region, other factors to pay attention to is frequent flooding. Besides having a natural event happening to your home, there's also leaks, pipe bursts that can happen common during the winter, winter time. And it could also you can also have water intrusion through something as innocuous as heavy rainfall or a loose nail head on your roof. So I wouldn't filter it so much as, oh, I'm in the coast or not in the coast or I'm in the desert or not. There's just so many different factors to consider and there's large studies done. One study which I cite often, 12,800 plus homes surveyed, roughly half of those homes had mold, dampness or high humidity in the home or water damage that can cause mold. I've seen stats as high as 70% of homes have mold alone. That felt a little high, but in that range is likely the level of impact.
- [13:53]
A
So, you know, one of the things I hear a lot from naysayers of the mold toxicity hypothesis is that humans have been living around molds since, you know, we lived in caves. And I just would wonder what is your response to people that say that?
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B
Yeah, I mean, it's cited in the Bible and the Bible even has a mold remediation plan in Leviticus. So yeah, I would say that a lot of the research in the last 30 years has better defined the problem. But it's not a new problem. It's a problem that's been around for a while.
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A
Yeah. And I think, you know, the people that say that are like, well, humans are meant to live around mold. And I always say, well, it's in the Bible. Like they say to burn your house.
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B
Down if you can't get.
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A
So this has been a problem for a while in, in human history.
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B
Yeah, that's. Yeah, that's an interesting way to. Exactly.
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A
Just because we've been around it for a long time doesn't mean it's not a Problem. Humans have always been suffering from too much mold exposure. So moving on to like testing for mold. Not in a human, not in the house yet. Were you tested for mold when you were having your symptoms?
- [15:02]
B
Not initially. It wasn't until I was treated by a Shoemaker certified physician that we looked into the key biomarkers, which I'm sure you're very familiar with, the inflammatory and immune markers that are commonly dysregulated. Some of those include MSH, MMP9, VEGF, C4, A, TGF beta 1. So these are the classical shoemaker labs that I was tested for eventually. Initially, no. I remember having over 100 plus different markers tested and it didn't include any of those labs.
- [15:36]
A
Yeah, and I think that's what's important. All the lab markers that you just mentioned are not standard laboratory measurements that doctors are doing. And most doctors don't even know that these, some of these measurements exist. And so you really have to go to someone that's used to looking for mold. And Shoemaker is a big fan of these inflammatory biomarkers in the blood. There's also urine tests available for mold toxins as well. And I know there's controversy around some of these. What are your feeling about, like urine laboratories for mold toxins?
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B
Yeah. So Dr. Shoemaker and Dr. Scott's take on the urinary mycotoxin test is that you're not able to distinguish ingested versus inhaled mycotoxins. So it's not really giving you a clear signal. And just because the test is high doesn't mean that's necessarily a bad sign. It could mean that your body's just effectively detoxing what's in your gut. So it's not really giving you a clear signal. And it answers a question that exposure happened. But a more interesting question to answer is what are the health impacts from that exposure? So that's what these other markers help answer more effectively.
- [16:42]
A
Yeah, and the way I look at it is, is that you need to paint a picture around the patient about, you know, from the history, what's going on with their symptoms, does it fit a mold related pattern? Is there reasons to suspect exposure at the home or the work or the travel environment combined with what are the systemic effects from blood markers and are there urinary, urinary signs or metabolites of mold toxins as well? And so we just paint a picture and there's not just one test. And that's what's really difficult about mold and why so many people don't end up Getting diagnosed for a long time. There's not one test that says you have mold toxicity. It has to be a picture that you're painting. And what I always tell people is, is that we can paint the picture, but at the end of the day, we have to test your environment and we have to do see what happens when you're not in that environment and see if you get better. Right. And so that's kind of where we end up usually.
- [17:37]
B
Yeah, it's more of a checklist process to, to your point, the labs give you one layer, the symptoms give you the other, and then whether exposure happened or not gives you that, that last layer on the cake. So there's other illnesses too, where it's more of a checklist process. So this is just one of those illnesses.
- [17:53]
A
Right. And there's. You mentioned genetic risks a few times. What, what are some of the genetic risks for mold? And I know you guys have a genetic test for these, these markers as well. Can you talk about those a little bit?
- [18:04]
B
Yeah, it's tied to HLA haplotypes on chromosome 6. That's a lot of jargon, but essentially there's certain types of patients that take these tests and it gives you a result three different alleles. One of those outcomes would be like 11352B, for example. So that's one of the mold susceptible HLA types. And what we've seen in the research that roughly. And this is Dr. Shoemakers and Dr. Scott's research that roughly 90% of patients that get quite sick. So patients that develop SIRS ends up having one of these HLA haplotypes.
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A
SIRS is Chronic Inflammatory Response syndrome.
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B
Yes.
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A
Right. And those, you also test for those that syndrome as well. Right. So that's where you're testing for like TGF beta 1 and MMP9 and some of these markers that tell you if you have that chronic inflammatory kind of response. Right.
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B
So we have a SIRS panel. We also have a complete panel. To technically get the SIRS diagnosis. You do need that checklist with a provider, but that provides the labs piece of that recipe.
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A
Can you talk about the checklist?
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B
Yeah, absolutely. So one having dysregulated labs. So our source panel does a great job for building that out. And a dysregulated lab could also include that genetic susceptibility too, to meeting the symptom clusters is what it's called. So there are several different symptoms associated with chronic inflammatory response syndrome. It's called the symptom clusters. But having eight of those boxes checked if you're an adult, six if you're a child, so under the age of 18. And then the last piece is having that environmental exposure. So that makes up a SIRS diagnosis. And that definition has evolved over time. But that's the latest way that it's being assessed in the field, Right?
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A
Exactly. And that symptom cluster questionnaire, is that something that anyone can take or how does someone take that? Answer those questions.
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B
Yeah, it's. It's pretty easy to do without having to even see a doctor. You can just pull up a symptom clusters chart and see how many of the symptoms map to your experience. Usually you want to select symptoms that have been around for at least 30 days. Like if you're just feeling off for that week and it could be the flu, that doesn't really count. But really trying to find these symptoms that have been sticky that stuck around for a while. And a single symptom, just a rule. A single symptom in the box counts as that box. So you don't need to have every. Every single symptom in that box checked to then select that box.
- [20:41]
A
Right, Right. And people can find these symptom cluster questionnaires online and they can take them themselves. And that's something that people can do for free and see if they at least have the symptoms. And that can then lead them to then getting the blood test done. And I think you have the blood test. These are. These can be ordered directly through moldco. Right. And do you send them to their home or do they have to go to a lab to get these, or how does it work?
- [21:05]
B
Some of our labs are sent directly to the patient, and then the other set of labs are done at LabCorp. So super easy. There's around 2,000 LabCorps in the country, and the labs are also fairly affordable. We offer the starter panel at round cost. We even lose a little bit of money on that. So it's only a $99 panel for patients.
- [21:25]
A
Yeah. And that's a really good way to kind of get the next set, the next item that they need in this diagnostic pathway. And then the last piece you mentioned is actually getting your home environment tested. Right. So can you talk about that and how that works? Because I know there's a lot of ways to do that. And some people, if you talk to them, they, like, you have to have a professional come out for thousands of dollars to do it. Can you. Can you take us through kind of your pathway on testing your home from old.
- [21:53]
B
Yeah, my. My favorite approach is dust testing. And that's something done by, I would say the far majority of shoemaker certified physicians too. So the way that works is you get a Swiffer pad in the mail, you wipe down different surfaces in the home, you try to keep it to a single Swiffer pad per room. So you don't want to wipe down your entire home with a single pad. And it's then sent to a lab where Ms. QPCR or a PCR method specific for mold is the analysis done. And you get a report with the molds that are present and how prevalent those molds are. And also included in that report is whether that score is low, medium or high. And the way that that data was collected was across a thousand different homes. So that's what's informing that score. And I love that so much for so many reasons. One, it's very low cost, you can do it yourself. It doesn't take much time and it gives you a clear read on whether exposure is happening in the home or not. The downside of that test though is that it's a historic fingerprint of what's been going on in that room. So if you've had remediation since that test was done, it's not going to give you an accurate signal.
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A
I see. Got it. So if you already have remediation, how long do you have to wait before retesting?
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B
It's more so that historic mold could be settled in the dye. So if there wasn't a well done cleaning job after the remediation, it won't give a clear signal. So if, if everything was like very tidy after the remediation and all the dust was clean, then I think that would be a clear signal. But if not, then you run that risk.
- [23:33]
A
Got it. Got it. And so what can people do in general for their home environment to, to prevent the mold colonization in home? Like what are some of the things that people can do Just preventatively assuming, say they do a test and there's no mold in their home, but they want to make sure they don't get mold. What are some of the things they can do?
- [23:53]
B
Yeah, some of the easy ones are high indoor humidity monitoring for that, keeping that below 70%. Ideally something else you can do as well as run air purifiers just to maintain clear, clear air in the home. Something else that can be done is being aware of leaks or water damage and addressing those issues fairly rapidly before the water gets to sit there beyond 24 to 48 hours. So just responding very Quickly to water damage events in the home.
- [24:23]
A
Right, right. And then say we have, say you notice mold on a wall. Right. Can someone clean that themselves? Does it need to be removed with a, with a professional mold remediator? What are your thoughts around that?
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B
Yeah, it depends on how extensive the damage is. We're a little bit more cautious with our patients just because they're coming to us. Quite so. So we prefer if a certified inspector, ideally with like NORMIE or IICRC or AACC certification comes in and assesses the issue. So we would just prefer a professional to check it out. Typically though, we don't recommend the use of chemicals or biocides for the removal. Our preference is to cut out the material and replace the material.
- [25:13]
A
Got it. Yeah. I mean, I think one of the reasons that I think a lot of people don't get their home checked for mold is it's expensive. Right. And so it's expensive both for. To get someone in there to test for it. It's also expensive to do the remediation. I think people are fearful of that, of discovering something they don't want to deal with. Right. And so.
- [25:32]
B
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I think that's where there's a lot of opportunity for entrepreneurs to come in and just help innovate the space. Like it is a fairly ancient industry. That's very. Yeah. So there's just so much opportunity to improve all that for patients and I'm excited to see some of the new companies coming out to address that problem.
- [25:55]
A
I agree it shouldn't be as expensive as it is and I think that definitely there's room for innovation and getting your home cleaned properly from old, if you have it there. So, hi, Dr. Shah here. I want to take a minute to talk to you about cellular health. So in my clinics I've actually seen 30 year old people with cells that look like they're pushing retirement. And I've also seen 60 year olds with cells that look like they're 40 years old. So what's the difference? It's really about how fast their telomeres are breaking down. Your cells, you see, are like phones and they have limited cell phone battery, poor sleep, stress, processed foods. All of these things can drain that battery way faster than it should. So this is the reason why I partnered with ima. IMA powers that cellular battery. It's not just another multivitamin. It's a comprehensive 92 ingredient formula designed specifically for cellular health and longevity. I'm talking 900 milligrams of vitamin C. That's like 20 oranges worth of DNA protection, the clinical dose of CoQ10 that you need to power your cellular engine. You also get zinc, selenium, vitamin E, alpha lipoic acid. All of these work synergistically for cellular repair and protecting your telomeres. So instead of taking a handful of pills every day and all these supplements, Im8 actually gives you everything that you need in one scientifically formulated system. And this isn't just a theory anymore. Im8 had partnered with Oxford University, the International Space Station San Francisco Research Institute and they've done studies and they've gotten this NSF certified to truly power your health. Most people are aging twice as fast as they should. Unfortunately, you don't have to be one of them. Try Im8. I actually have a discount secured for you if you go to DrShaw.com IM8 or go to ImaidHealth.com discount DrShaw and you can get 20% off with my discount code DrShaw. You can also find the link below. Anything else on the home testing front that you want to mention? You know, you mentioned a couple of organizations there. Can you talk about those and what they are, why they're important to know about?
- [28:12]
B
Yeah, those are standard training programs for inspectors and remediators. There are certain codes to follow and certain training that should be done. Important things to look for is someone that is actually trained in mold. You wouldn't, you'd be surprised how many folks kind of just enter the field without formal training or without that being their specialization. So it's just a way to filter out the right inspector and remediator for you?
- [28:39]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So say you're, you do your blood tests, we get a mold code blood test, it shows that there are signs of mold toxicity. You know, you fill out a questionnaire, there's definitely a symptom cluster. What's the next step?
- [28:55]
B
Yeah, great question. So we take patients through the care journey. We have our own clinical team. We assess patients even more deeply to confirm that they have the signs of mold related illness or mold toxicity. We look deeply at their symptoms, their environmental exposure, their medical history. We also have a concierge care model too, so patients can message us at any time and we deliver the medications to patient stores. And that's a personalized and programmatic journey that we take patients on. It's a few different steps for treatment and it's typically done over the span of several months. We see symptoms, improvement in resolution, typically in the first three months though. But we really encourage patients to go through the whole protocol because all the steps are important.
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A
Yeah. And you have doctors guiding people through the protocol.
- [29:45]
B
Yes. Yeah, exactly. We have nurse practitioners licensed in the state, and then we have our medical director.
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A
Great.
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B
Who's one of the world experts helping oversee the patient cases.
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A
And that's. And that's through telemedicine.
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B
Yeah. It's all virtual care. And we're currently in 16 states for care. We'll be in all 50 states by the summer of this year.
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A
That's fantastic. Is making this type of care so much more accessible. People have such a hard time finding care for mold.
- [30:12]
B
Yeah. It's definitely a unique challenge. And what gets me excited is the affordability piece. So creating something that's a tenth or even a hundredth the cost of what patients who do end up finding the right solutions pay through their journey.
- [30:28]
A
Yeah, no, I love that. And you're also providing medications, you said. Can you talk a little bit about the medical treatment of mold exposure?
- [30:36]
B
Yeah. So the medications that we offer are a prescription binder. Everything has a medical professional overseeing and prescribing every step, by the way. We also have a nasal spray that helps clear some of the problematic bacteria and biofilm in the nasal passages. And we also have a peptide, which is part of the Shoemaker protocol, vasointestinal polypeptide, or VIP included. So all three steps are shipped directly to the patient stores.
- [31:02]
A
Ah, that's amazing. So you're clearing the biofilm, which is the colonization of the mold in the upper respiratory pathways. That's a nasal spray. Right. What's the name of that nasal spray?
- [31:12]
B
It's our. It's our own formulation. It's called Moldco Clear.
- [31:16]
A
Oh, cool. Very cool. And then. And then you're using binders as well?
- [31:22]
B
Yeah, we're using prescription binders. So what you may see online is the use of natural binders like charcoal. We haven't seen success with those binders. We see just a lot more success in symptoms resolution with the prescription binders.
- [31:39]
A
Got it. And what are the prescription binders that you're using?
- [31:41]
B
We use Colacevolam. Another common one is cholestyramine.
- [31:45]
A
Yes, exactly. Great. And then VIP is part of the Shoemaker protocol. And can you talk about Dr. Shoemaker and who he is? We've mentioned him a couple times.
- [31:53]
B
The.
- [31:53]
A
For the audience's benefit.
- [31:55]
B
Yeah. I'm a huge. Obviously a huge fan of Dr. Shoemaker. I attribute feeling like myself again to. To him. So credit him with. With a lot of appreciation. So he's. He's the. He's our Founding Physician one. And he coined the term chronic inflammatory response syndrome. He led the research in the space. So he's the pioneer, defined this illness, defined the biomarkers, defined the treatment. And he's personally treated over 14,000 himself. And his story is just so unique. It started over 30 years ago now in this space. And he spilled, I would say, a cottage industry. Like he's helped spin up multiple companies and train providers and provide a tremendous amount of educational resources for patients. So I just think he's absolutely incredible.
- [32:46]
A
Yeah, he's really been a lifeline for people that have been suffering from mold and nowhere to go. I know a lot of functional physicians get trained in the Shoemaker protocols as well. And so it's really, really important to keep spreading the message, but it just can't spread fast enough. And so your company really provides access and also I would say access at a more affordable price range than what's typically available. Sometimes People spend thousands and thousands every year getting treated for mold.
- [33:13]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [33:14]
A
Is that kind of what led you to developing moldco is just democratizing the care. What's the mission of moldcore?
- [33:22]
B
Yeah, our mission is to address the biggest medical blind spots. Mold is a big one. Next up, we want to address Lyme and then after that, Long Covid. So these illnesses across the biotoxin illness pathway, which is currently almost unaddressed or very minimally addressed in standard medical practice.
- [33:42]
A
So exciting to hear that you're doing this, especially around Long Covid. It's such a huge problem. We see it all the time.
- [33:50]
B
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
- [33:51]
A
And people are suffering and they don't know what to do next. And there's not a lot of good treatment protocols available. But I see a massive opportunity there and hopefully it's something that you can launch here pretty soon.
- [34:04]
B
Yeah. And we've been tracking a lot of, you know, I say our research extends beyond Dr. Shoemaker's initial work. So we've amassed the world's largest data set for the mold health connection. So thousands of biospecimens, close to 10,000 patient history forms. We're tracking the research of other groups too. So we're just looking for the best in class biomarkers and treatment approach to help bring that to patients very efficiently and affordably. So I'm just really excited about some of the promising research coming out by groups even outside of our company too.
- [34:40]
A
No, that's fantastic. Is Dr. Shoemaker involved with your company as well?
- [34:44]
B
Yeah, so he's our founding physician.
- [34:47]
A
Amazing. Yeah, very cool, Very cool. And you also Have a couple of other physicians that you're working with that are deep in the field as well.
- [34:55]
B
Yeah. So we brought on the world experts in this space, and not just on the clinical side, on the scientific side too. The vision is to expand the R and D within this field. It's so needed. And I really hope that mainstream medicine does adopt mold care. It should be part of the annual screening visit. Right. We should be screening for mold exposure in the home. We should be screening for the common signs and symptoms because it's such a preventable illness. If it's just flagged early on and communicated to patients.
- [35:25]
A
Absolutely. Yeah. And you hit on the top three there. Mold, Lyme and long Covid. I think those three are such blind spots in medicine right now. And people get so frustrated when they can't get anyone to first of all even acknowledge that they have a problem. There's a lot of gaslighting involved, a lot of blaming it on psychological issues when there really is a problem there, and then finding treatments even harder.
- [35:50]
B
Yeah. Or it's a misdiagnosis. They're getting treatment for something just totally different to what their root problem is.
- [35:58]
A
Yeah. You know, you mentioned research. Are you guys conducting research on mold and the patients that are being treated as well and kind of, you know, I know you're using evidence based approaches to your care, but are those evolving? Is that research evolving your care of mold?
- [36:14]
B
Yeah. We are constantly keeping our ear to the ground of what's new in this space. The group of Shoemaker certified physicians are conducting their own R and D separate from what we're doing too. And we've started sequencing our biobank to better understand the impact of mold on human health. So this is the first of its kind analysis and we'll be publishing those results soon. But it's really something we want to double down on later this year after we've expanded to all 50 states and continue to delight our patients. It's really more our secondary goal. The primary goal is serving patients today and then after that we can serve patients tomorrow.
- [36:56]
A
I love that. I'm so excited about your company and really democratizing Dr. Shoemaker's protocols and just the whole system. I think it's such a simple system, the way you've set up moldco to understand diagnostics, home testing, clinical access, and then providing the treatment. And it makes total sense.
- [37:16]
B
Oh, thank you. I appreciate that.
- [37:19]
A
Do you guys also provide resources for remediation of mold in the home?
- [37:23]
B
Yeah. So in our concierge care portal, we have our preferred Inspectors and remediators. So when patients ask us for resources or when they mention they're looking into inspectors or remediators, we give them our top pick. I think it is something we do want to publish and make accessible to even our non members too. So that's something we're discussing internally.
- [37:43]
A
Great. And then is there a way to even provide pricing and what people should expect to pay? And even is there a way to like, you know, because what I find is a lot of times when you call one mold remediator, it costs X thousands of dollars and you call another one as X minus Y thousands of dollars. And the pricing just seems to be all over the place. And be great to have some level of transparency about what things should cost as well.
- [38:07]
B
I would love that pricing transparency too. I'm like bewildered by how different these prices are. To your point. I had one of our patients get quoted at 1200 as their lowest quote and 9000 as their highest quote for a simple inspection. And it seemed like roughly the same report at the end of the day. So I'm just a little confused by the pricing there too.
- [38:31]
A
Exactly. Ariana, how long did it take for you to feel better and feel like yourself again after first getting started with treatment?
- [38:40]
B
Yeah, it was a process. I would say I felt like I got my brain back earlier in the process and then the energy levels and ability to exercise came later. So it took, I would say it took roughly two years to get back to feeling like myself again. But within the first two months, I felt like I had an incredible symptoms relief too. So it was more of this, like, process over time where I had some, some layer of the symptoms relieved and then later on more of the symptoms relieved. So. And we see that with our, with our patients as well.
- [39:18]
A
Yeah, I agree. That's pretty much been my experience. It takes a few months and then once the symptoms go away, people just start feeling so much happier because it's kind of like that emotional weight of just feeling like there's nothing you can do about this. You have to live like this. Forever kind of goes away.
- [39:32]
B
Yeah. And you're able to go outside again, see friends again, exercise. Do your hobbies have more space and energy in the day? You're not just at a few functional hours in the day. So showing up in that way every day just compounds over time.
- [39:47]
A
Agreed. Agreed. What do you want people out there to know that are trying to advocate for themselves in this whole field of mold? And they know they have mold exposure. They're trying to figure it out like, what's some advice you can give to them?
- [40:03]
B
I would love to just validate their experience. It's something that many of these patients rarely receive. And your symptoms are real. Mold does cause health issues. The labs show up in a fairly repeatable way. If you want to verify that and you're not crazy, don't believe the gaslighting and stay persistent to advocate for yourself and your health because there's a path to better health.
- [40:30]
A
Absolutely. And I think you've put a lot of the power back into the patient's hands by. First of all, people can just look up online how to take a symptom questionnaire and show that, look, I have these symptoms based on this questionnaire. And secondly, now they can get, for $99 a test on your website that shows the biomarkers of mold as well. They can test their home as well. How much does that home test cost, by the way? The wipe test that you talked about?
- [40:56]
B
Yeah. It's less than 200 bucks. It's so much more affordable than an inspector. And we really try to make it not a heroic journey because that's what it's felt like today. You have to be almost superhuman, reading all the publications and all the online forums and essentially getting your mini MD to try to treat yourself and try to find doctors to believe you and even prescribe the medications and give you the lab. So it's just too much. So removing all of those hurdles and having it not be such a harrowing journey for patients is something we're excited to deliver on.
- [41:33]
A
Yeah, it's a really exciting product that you put together and I really applaud you for it and thank you for doing it. Because more people need to know that this is now doesn't need to be a big enigma out there to them. Whether or not they have mold, they can easily find out for themselves if it's affecting their biology, if they have it in their home and they can do something about it now.
- [41:54]
B
Yeah. Thank you.
- [41:55]
A
How can people find out more about the products and you?
- [42:00]
B
Yeah. So moldcode.com has pretty much everything you need. If you have questions beyond what's on our website, we also have support. So that's the email address. I read a lot of those emails, by the way. I even sometimes jump in and respond to those emails. So you can send us an email there. We're also on Instagram, too. We get quite a few DMs and, and comments there. So that's at the mold company for our handle. And yeah, those are a few ways you can, you can reach out Arianna.
- [42:30]
A
Thank you so much for coming on the podcast on Xtend, and I look forward to continuing the conversation with you. And maybe next we'll be talking about Limeco or long Covid company or whatever you decide to name it.
- [42:44]
B
Thank you, Dr. Shah. I really enjoyed the conversation.
- [42:47]
A
Thank you. Here are my top five takeaways from this awesome episode on Mold with Ariana. Number one Mold toxicity is a systemic illness, not just a single symptom. Mold exposure doesn't show up in just one organ or one lab marker. It's disrupting you at a cellular level, affecting mitochondrial energy production, immune signaling, neurological function, gut health, and even your hormones all at the same time, making it kind of an invisible diagnosis. And conventional medicine is really hard at diagnosing mold exposure because of this. Number two genetics determine susceptibility, not just exposure alone. Roughly 24% of the population has a genetic vulnerability in their HLA genes that impair their ability to clear mold toxins. This explains why one person in a household can become severely ill while others remain seemingly unaffected. Number three Standard medical testing misses mold almost entirely. Most physicians don't test mold specific markers, meaning patients are often told that they're fine despite having real symptoms. Accurate diagnosis actually requires a triangulation of what's called symptom clusters, usually found by questionnaires, targeted labs and environmental testing. Number four Healing requires treating the body and the environment. Unlike many other diseases out there, no protocol works if the exposure continues. Treatment has to pair with medical interventions. So binders, nasal spray, therapies, immune support, all of that's going to work only if environmental remediation and prevention strategies are done simultaneously. Number five Patients must advocate for themselves and they're not wrong. Many mold patients are dismissed or misdiagnosed for years. There's so much gaslighting that happens when someone has all of these symptoms. This episode reinforced a critical truth. Symptoms are real. Mold causes testable physiological damage, and accessible tools now exist to help patients take control of their health. I invited Ariana to be on this podcast when I found out about her company, moldco, she did not pay me to be on the podcast. I was just so inspired by what they did. Finally, for mold, where people have access to testing, to good advice, to medical specialists, and to treatments all under one roof and at a much more affordable price point than molds previously available. If you think you might be suffering from mold, moldco is a great place to start. And you can also come to one of our clinics at NexHealth and we can help you through it. Thank you. Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Please remember to subscribe if you like this episode and give us a good review and share a link with your friends. It really helps to support all of our efforts. I also want to remind you that the information shared on this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended to replace professional medical advice, diagnosis, or treatment. Please consult with your healthcare provider or physician before making any decisions or taking any action based on what you hear today, especially if you have any underlying health conditions or on any medications. Your doctor knows your personal personal health situation the best. It is always important to seek their guidance.