← Extend Podcast with Darshan Shah, MD
Extend Podcast with Darshan Shah, MD
156. Dr. Judith Joseph: High-Functioning Depression, Anhedonia, and Reclaiming Joy
00:42:08
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- [00:03]
A
Welcome to Xtend with me, Dr. Darshan Shah. A podcast dedicated to cutting edge science research tools and protocols designed to help you extend your health span. Having become one of the youngest doctors in the country at the age of 21 and trained and board certified at the Mayo Clinic, I've accumulated three decades of practice as a board certified surgeon and longevity expert. Over that time, I've discovered that a mere 20% of health knowledge yields 80% of the results. When it comes to your health span, we are living in a new era where we are creating a new healthcare system no longer focused on disease management, but achieving optimal health and vitality. Join me as I interview world renowned experts offering you a step by step guide to proactively avoid disease and most importantly, extend your health span. High functioning individuals often appear successful, productive, in control, yet many are silently experiencing a loss of joy, emotional numbness and chronic internal stress. Traditional mental health models tend to focus on breakdown and dysfunction, which means this pattern can go unrecognized for years. In this episode of Xtend, I'm joined with incredible science and physician, Dr. Judith Joseph. She's a board certified psychiatrist, she's a researcher and an author of the book High Functioning who focuses on high functioning depression, anhedonia and the science of happiness. Dr. Judith Joseph combines clinical research with real world tools to help identify why so many high performers are feeling stuck, disconnected or joyless despite their external success. We're going to unpack what high functioning depression actually looks like, how anhedonia shows up in everyday life, and why busyness and pathological productivity can mask deeper emotional patterns. We also explored the biosocial model and Dr. Judith Joseph's 5VS framework to help you understand where you're losing joy and how to start rebuilding it. This conversation with Dr. Judith really resonated with me because this is exactly where I was 10 years ago. I'm reminded of the quote that external success does not mean you're internally healthy. Dr. Judith and I had a great conversation and I am so excited for you to hear it. Oh my gosh, I'm so excited to have you on the show. This is. I met you briefly. I'm like, I have to get her on the show. And this was at Jim Quick's conference, right? That's where we met.
- [02:32]
B
Yes.
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A
And yeah, your talk was incredible. A game changing talk because it resonated so personally with me and you know, my struggles through life as well. And so I'm. Thank you.
- [02:45]
B
Oh it's. Thank you for having me. A lot of doctors Come up to me and they're like, your book is about me. And I talk about that in the book. And I say, like, in medicine, we're taught to pick something that's broken, heal people, but we don't even recognize when, okay, on the outside things look great, but on the inside, people lack joy. And that's a problem. Right, right. And I think it's because a lot of us as physicians, we're just taught to power through the pain. You know, a patient passes, you power through, something bad happens, well, you pick yourself up. And so we're pathologically productive. So when we see that happening in our patients, we're like, oh, you're fine, come back when you break down. And I wanted to change that.
- [03:24]
A
Yeah, it's such a problem. And I think what happens is because we live with that mindset from the first moment we get into school. Right. All the way through finishing school, doing our residency, doing our career, and you just get desensitized to the amount of stress that you're putting yourself through. And to normalize it.
- [03:45]
B
Well, not just that, also when you ask for help and you have depression, you have to report it.
- [03:51]
A
Right.
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B
So there's a lot of disincentives to not ask for help. Right. You go to medical school, many of us accumulate a ton of debt. Many of us have life debt because our youth was spent studying and caring for others and training. And so the idea of it all being possibly threatened by then asking for help when you're struggling is just something that people don't even consider. They're like, I will never get help. So a lot of healthcare professionals are struggling.
- [04:18]
A
Right. I think just a lot of people are struggling too, because it's such a grind culture now. And to succeed seed, it's almost unlimited amount of work you can put into your business, your career now. And the incentives are to put in as many hours as possible. Right. I see a lot of my friends, I'm in a group called ypo, Young Presidents Organization. A lot of very high functioning individuals there, but I see the same. You called it toxic productivity, is that right? Pathological productivity?
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B
Yeah.
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A
Yeah. Where it's just like if you're not doing something every moment of the day there, you just feel uncomfortable. And now that becomes even more empowered by these devices that we carry around with us all the time where you can constantly be working.
- [05:05]
B
Yeah. In my study, the first peer reviewed study that I published in High Functioning Depression in the World, that's what we found. We found a high correlation to busyness and the idea is that if you don't deal with your past pain, if you don't process it, what you end up doing, if you're someone who doesn't deal with your pain, you push it down and you distract. And so one of the questions I ask is, when you're sitting still, how do you feel? Do you feel empty? Do you feel restless when you're not working? So they're humans doing, they're not human beings, right? And that emptiness, that restlessness they feel, they self soothe by using work, they self soothe by using busyness on their phone, maybe excessive shopping, sometimes substances. But there's this need to try and avoid processing the pain by doing other things. And I don't think a lot of people recognize that that's a sign of high functioning depression.
- [05:59]
A
Let's talk about high functioning depression. Could you give us like a definition of how to think about that?
- [06:04]
B
Well, in my lab, not too far from here, I do a lot of clinical studies looking at pharmaceutical medications, enrolling patients into double blind, placebo controlled studies, meaning that I don't know what they're on, My team doesn't know, they don't know what they're on. And many of the products go to market, some of them don't. But we use something called the DSM 5 and these structured type of interviews. So in the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual for Psychiatry, we're asking things like symptoms of depression. Like, you know, are you having a lack of joy or something called anhedonia where you don't enjoy the things you used to have interest and pleasure in. Are you having a low mood? Are you having changes in your sleep, your energy, your appetite, you know, are you feeling guilty? All these symptoms and at the very end of the checklist you have to either meet criteria for losing functioning or having significant impairment in functioning or be in distress or crisis. Well, what happens when people come in and we go through the checklist and those last two boxes aren't checked? What do we say? Oh, well, you don't meet criteria, so come back when you break down. And I just thought like, after seeing so many folks like this, why are we doing, you know, in, in other fields of medicine with my friends who are oncologists, if you were to tell a patient, come back when you're in stage four cancer, right? They'd be like, where did you go to medical school? Right? If you're a cardiologist and you're like, come back when you have a heart attack, right? They'd be like, are you even Licensed. Right. They don't wait for the breakdown. They're proactive, they're preventative. Right. And that's the renaissance that we're seeing in medicine.
- [07:34]
A
Yes.
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B
But in mental health, we're still in the dark ages. We still wait for those final checklists of you breaking down or you're in distress, come back, you know, when, when you're like that.
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A
Wow.
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B
So let's prevent it. And so that's why I decided to study high functioning depression.
- [07:49]
A
Right, right. And so I think probably if you're a high functioning, just individual, you, and like you said, you kind of suppress your traumas, you suppress your reaction to your life stresses, then you could potentially never check those last two boxes and you stay high functioning, but you're living in depression for decades.
- [08:08]
B
Right. Some people are high functioning and they're joyful.
- [08:11]
A
Yeah.
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B
They don't have anhedonia. They're like killing it. And they're like, I love this, I can't wait. But others, many of us, we're still showing up, we're getting the work done, we're joyless, we feel empty and we don't know what's wrong. We're like, well, everything on the outside looks good. What do I have to complain about? So a lot of those folks come to me and they're like, help me. Something's off, I don't know what it is. And then I do my anhedonia inventory and I show them that, look, there's like very little joy in your life. You know, like, do you know one of the symptoms of depression is anhedonia? You don't have to be sad, you don't have to be crying. You could be lacking joy and feeling numb. And that's a red flag. So even if you're functioning, if you're lacking joy, that could be a sign that something else is happening.
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A
So, you know, for people that don't really know what anhedonia is, could you give us some of the items that are on your checklist? So the people listening can be like, that's me.
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B
You know, it's interesting because in mental health, people often think, okay, happy is just one thing, joy is just one thing. But what we're learning is that joy is a plethora of sensations. So some of the things we'll ask is when you tasted your food, when you were eating, was it yummy? Like, were you, like, looking forward to it? When you were watching a movie and were you engaged, were you inspired by it? When you were walking in nature and you were looking at the sunset or looking at the water, did it give you that sense of awe? Right. When you were tired and you woke up from a nap, did you feel refreshed? Are you getting all this? The joyful experiences in life, when you're with your loved one, are you like into the, you know, the connection?
- [09:51]
A
Yeah.
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B
And so joy comes from all of these human experiences. And if you're feeling that joylessness, if you're feeling a lack of pleasure, lack of interest, and things feel numb and blah, that could be a sign of anhedonia.
- [10:04]
A
Got it, got it. Is there a difference between the term joy and the term happiness?
- [10:10]
B
Yes. So I have a private practice as well where I see patients for therapy, and number one thing they'll say is, Dr. Judith, I just wanna be happy. That's my therapy practice. I just wanna be happy. But then I have a research practice where we do the science of happiness, where we measure happiness using these inventories, these checklists and so forth. So in the private practice, in the therapy practice, when I ask the patients, well, you know, what does happiness mean to you? They'll say things like, well, I will be happy when I finally have that big job, or when I have the love of my life, or when I have a family, it's always something external. Happiness is this idea, this external thing that has to happen for you to feel that way. Joy, on the other hand, is what we measure in the research. And what we're measuring are things called joy points, points of joy. Some of those questions that I mentioned, like when you ate your food, was it yummy? When you were lonely and you reached out to a loved one, did you feel connected? When you were stressed, could you self soothe? When you were tired and you rested, did you wake up feeling refreshed? We're measuring these joy points and then we're adding them up and we're seeing if you're becoming happier over time. Right. So it's a huge shift because a lot of people, they're holding their breath for this external thing to happen for them to be happy, but they're missing out on the daily points of joy. They're leaving them on the table.
- [11:27]
A
So it's like joy is more what's happening on the present, on the internal. Internal. Got it, got it. So for people listening that are thinking like, you know, that describes me, I'm just making it through life. I'm doing the things I have to do. I'm getting a lot done, right? I'm being productive, but I'm not feeling joy. What are Some of the steps that get back into a place where you're feeling joy again.
- [11:53]
B
Well, I say the number one thing is first, understand the science of your happiness. And that's actually the motto of our lab, the science of your happiness. And there's a whole field called the science of happiness. But I wanted to people to realize, you know, there's only one you, and there will ever, only ever be one you ever in the future of the universe, in the history of the universe. And when you think about that, like, it always gives me chills because it's like the chances of you existing are so small. Right. So you are definitely here for a reason. But often we're looking at what makes other people happy. And then we're trying that, like, let me read this book. I'll be happy. Let me listen to this podcast, Let me do this self help thing. But then we're still stuck and we're like, why didn't it work? Well, did you understand the science of your happiness? What makes you unique? Where are you losing your joy? If you don't understand where you're losing joy in your life, then how can you add that joy back?
- [12:48]
A
Right, Right.
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B
So first you have to understand your signs. And you and I learned the biopsychosocial model early in medical school.
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A
Yes.
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B
But I felt like we write these nice evaluations and we stick that biopsychosocial in there, and no one reads it. Like, literally no one has ever been like, oh, I read my biopsychosocial Dr. Judith. Let's talk about it. So let's teach patients how to do their own. Right? So I'll literally sit with my patients and they'll draw their Venn diagram, bio, biological, you know, psycho, which is psychological, social. And you start to figure out ways that you're losing your joy. So biologically, you know, what are your medical conditions? Many people have autoimmune conditions. They're in high inflammatory states. They're losing joy there. Personally, I have a thyroid issue. If my thyroid is not in check, I know I'm cranky, I'm tired, I'm irritable. Right. So many women, they're in perimenopause or menopause. Their hormonal fluctuations impact them. Right. So where are you losing your joy biologically? And what are your risk factors? What's your family history psychologically? What are your mental health risk factors? Some of us have past trauma that's unresolved. I know personally, I came from very little. I have scarcity. Trauma came to this country with very little. So I was constantly working. Fear of running out. But for others, it could be other past traumas, you know, relationship traumas, attachment traumas, or, you know, just adhd, neurodivergence. All of these past medical histories come in for the psychological conditions. And then socially, what's happening in your day to day life? You know, who are you around? Who's draining your joy? Because you could eat all the kale in the world, but if you're with a toxic person, that's not gonna work, right? What's your work life like? You know, who are you around at work? What are you doing daily in terms of your habits? Are you drinking too much? Are you too sedentary? Are you eating foods that are highly processed? Are you smoking? All of those things are the social factors, right? So when you look at happiness as being okay, there's biological, psychological, social factors, then you start to see approaching this from a multidirectional point of view, right? There's not one line to happiness. It's like, oh, I can get a point here in the biological, I can get a point here in the psychological, social, right? Let me figure it out based on where I'm losing my joy. Let me be strategic, right, about where to add my joy back.
- [15:07]
A
Yes, that's a fantastic exercise for people to go through. Just get up on the whiteboard, make those three circles, biological, social, psychological, and write in there all the aspects where you feel you might be losing some joy. The biological piece. And I'm so glad you mentioned this because I think that this is a part of medicine and specifically psychiatry that's been ignored is the biology of psychiatry. And there's so many, like you mentioned, thyroid, the perimenopause, those hormonal issues, there's metabolic issues where you can be losing your joy and your happiness as well. There's inflammation can lead to this as well. And so really, you know, understanding what those potential factors are and also seeing a, you know, a physician or someone that can help you work through some of those as well can actually help bring back joy in some way.
- [15:58]
B
Sometimes, yeah. Even things like what you eat, a lot of my clients will come in with these odd symptoms that don't make sense. And you're like, ah, is this depression? Is this anxiety? Then you find out they're nutrition is not the greatest, they're not getting vitamins. Many people walk around with all these vitamin deficiencies and they have no idea. And had they really thought about it as a signs of your happiness, like, oh, let me just make sure it's not just psychological. Right. Then they would have all of these avenues to supporting themselves. Not that it's just one direction, but that's an area you could have supported to add more points of joy. You know, that's three points you had today that you didn't have yesterday.
- [16:37]
A
Exactly. Vitamin D levels, for example, like B12 folate. B12 folate. Getting good nutrition from whole foods can lead to more happiness psychologically. And you just getting those points racked up. There's some easy ones you could check off there.
- [16:54]
B
There, there's a, literally a whole field called nutritional psychiatry where they study putting people in these randomized studies where some people are on the standard diet, others are in on these brain health diets, and they see mental health symptoms improve based on diet alone.
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A
Wow.
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B
If we really read that and we followed that, imagine how many people would be better supported just by what they're eating.
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A
Yeah, absolutely. I look at like the metabolic causes of also psychiatric conditions. And so there's so many people, you know, 90% of Americans are metabolically unhealthy right now. And just controlling your sugar intake and your carbohydrate intake and getting your metabolism back in order with more activity, exercise and getting better sleep can also be very beneficial.
- [17:41]
B
Yeah. And highly inflamed brain is not happy. A highly inflamed brain is not getting the connections that it needs. The neurons aren't. The brain cells aren't talking to each other. They're not connected.
- [17:51]
A
Right, exactly. Let's talk a little bit more about the social aspects of this. Because one of my favorite quotes that I love to talk to my patients about is you become the average of the five day people you surround yourself with. Right. And so I really try to surround myself with positive people. People add to my joy, add to my enjoyment of life. And really, whenever I meet someone that I even suspect is going to have a negative influence in my thinking patterns, I just distance myself. And that served me really well. And that wasn't always this way. This has only happened probably in the last 15 years or so. Prior to this, I would almost be more attracted to people that were a challenge for me, you know, challenging to be around. Because I'm like, how do I fix this relationship? And then I realized that like, you know, it's getting away from those challenging relationships and finding relationships that are easier that led to happiness more in the long term. So is this something that you talk about a lot?
- [18:49]
B
I do. I have a whole chapter dedicated to that. It's focusing on like masochistic traits. Now, masochistic personality disorder was removed from the dsm, the Bible, psychiatry.
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A
Oh, it did.
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B
It was problematic because it was often like victim blaming. Like, oh, you end up in these situations that are bad for you where you're getting hurt. So it's kind of victim blaming.
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A
Got it.
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B
Versus we should be looking at the person who's actually hurting the person.
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A
Yes.
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B
But, you know, there are some elements that they kept that, I think in masochistic personality disorder that are now reframed as people pleasing. You know, and in healthcare, where we have this mentality of putting others first and sacrificing for others and never giving up on a case, not losing hope. I think we are more prone to. To being attached to people who are problematic, you know, because we're like, well, we don't want to give up on them. There's got to be a way. We like to crack the case.
- [19:42]
A
Yes.
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B
But in some cases, there's no.
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A
There's no cracking the case. Right.
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B
It is what it is.
- [19:49]
A
Well said. Exactly.
- [19:50]
B
Right. When people come to my lab, I have this big red magnet, and I've done this in talks where I have this magnet and I. And I have this, you know, this case of, like, the little black splinters of tiny magnets. And I say, you know, this is you around people who are not good for you. If you think you're unscathed. Look what happens when you're in a room with them. And then I take the magnet, the red magnet around and then lift it up and it's covered in splinters. Right. People literally can drain your life force from you. And there are studies showing that the people that you surround yourself with, they can make or break your physical health and your mental health. So you have to really be careful about who you spend your time, who you give your time, who you give your joy to.
- [20:33]
A
Yeah. It's so true, that magnet analogy. I saw you do that on stage at Quick seminar, and it was so poignant because you don't really realize that these splinters are surrounding you and becoming a part of your existence until they really pile up. Right. And then you're like, what is going on? And so I think just keeping yourself away from that as much as possible, you just get less of that energy.
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B
Yeah. The interesting thing is that that's my daughter's magnet case.
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A
Oh, it is.
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B
She's nine. She wants to be a scientist.
- [21:07]
A
Yes.
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B
So I buy her a bunch of science experiments, and I actually talk to my daughter about these type of things, like not the way that I'm talking with you, clearly, but in a way. Like, you know, when friends make you feel bad about yourself, it's usually about what they're going through. And sometimes they give off the. These waves. And I try to use words like energy that then make you feel bad. And, like, sometimes when you feel bad, then you want to go and help the friend, because maybe there's something about you, but I have to explain that it's not you. And I use these type of, like, imagery, like the one that you saw. I have a balloon to show her venting. And I thought, you know what? Why am I just teaching small children like this? Let's see if this works with, like, big brains. And people love it. They feel like they're going back to science class. You know, it's like Bill Nye meets Oprah.
- [21:54]
A
Yeah, exactly. It is. Exactly. Well, I would love for you to talk about the balloon. Cause I saw you do that, too.
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B
Yeah. So when I talk about the five Vs, to healing from, you know, a lack of joy, the five Vs, to thriving and really reclaiming your joy, I talk about validation. That's acknowledging how you feel and accepting it without judgment. Because many of us, we just push it down. We don't want to accept it. That's our coping mechanism. But if you push down the pain, you'll also push down the joy. Right. So I talk about validating and accepting your emotions. The second V is venting. This is how you express your emotions. And when people come to my lab, I'll. They'll take turns with this big red balloon trying to push it into a tank of water. And 100% of the time, that balloon pops up and makes a splash. Right. And then we take turns deflating that balloon. And then we push it down into the water. It goes without resistance.
- [22:46]
A
Yeah.
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B
And so I use that as a symbol that if you don't learn how to express your emotions and get it out, it'll pop up in your health in ways you can't control. It pops up in your relationships. You start snapping at your partner, your kids. It pops up at work.
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A
Right.
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B
In ways that are dysregulated. So really learning how to vent and express those emotions in a healthy way can help you to have more control and also better outcomes in general. And so the venting, it can be verbal, like talking to a therapist. But many of us don't a have the time or just the resources or can't find a therapist. Right. So there are ways to vent to someone who's not a therapist, but there are rules around it. There's the do's and the don'ts. When you choose someone to talk to, they should be someone who you can trust, who's not gonna tell your business, right? Someone where there's reciprocity, you go to them, they come to you. And also there should be understanding that this is not trauma dumping. This is not just me unloading, you know, onto you. This is not me gossiping. I'm coming to you with the intention of resolving something, right? There's an intentional aspect to it. Because the data shows that when you vent and you're just trauma dumping and you just vent into anyone who'll listen, you actually feel worse. You know, one of the papers said it's almost like pouring gas onto a fire. You feel worse. And also when you vent, don't pick people who are in lower positions of power. Like don't vent to your kids, right? Because they're not gonna say, oh, I don't wanna listen to you. They're gonna listen because they're designed to attach to you. They don't wanna be rejected by you and they don't wanna reject you. Don't vent to your employees. You know, these are people who are in a lesser position of power and they're not gonna say no to the boss, right? But then they'll go home and they'll vent to their families and then this is vicious cycle that happens. Right? But venting doesn't just have to be verbal. It can be through writing. A lot of my patients like to write in journals. My artistic patients like to express it in their art. Or my faith based patients like to pray. You know, just learn how to get that out in a healthy, intentional way.
- [24:44]
A
Yeah. Such great advice. Hi, Dr. Shah here. I want to take a minute to talk to you about cellular health. So in my clinics, I've actually seen 30 year old people with cells that look like they're pushing retirement. And I've also seen 60 year olds with cells that look like they're 40 years old. So what's the difference? It's really about how fast their telomeres are breaking down. Your cells you see, are like phones and they have limited cell phone battery, poor sleep, stress, processed foods. All of these things can drain that battery way faster than it should. So this is the reason why I partnered with ima. IMA powers that cellular battery. It's not just another multivitamin. It's a comprehensive 92 ingredient formula designed specifically for cellular health and longevity. I'm talking 900 milligrams of vitamin C. That's like 20 oranges worth of DNA protection. The clinical dose of CoQ10 that you need to power your cellular engine. You also get zinc, selenium, vitamin E, alpha lipoic acid. All of these work synergistically for cellular repair and protecting your telomeres. So instead of taking a handful of pills every day and all these supplements, Im8 actually gives you everything that you need in one scientifically formulated system. And this isn't just a theory anymore. IMAID had partnered with Oxford University, the International Space Station San Francisco Research Institute, and they've done studies and they've gotten this NSF certified to truly power your health. Most people are aging twice as fast as they should. Unfortunately, you don't have to be one of them. Try imate. I actually have a discount secured for you if you go to DrShaw.com IMA or go to ImaidHealth.com discount DrShaw and you can get 20% off with my discount code DrShaw. You can also find the link below. You mentioned 5Vs. We talked about venting, we talked about validation. Can you talk about the other three?
- [26:47]
B
Yeah. So values. Values is the third. Values are things that are priceless, not with price tags. And so many times, like in my office, if you come by, you'll see all of these. I have so many degrees, I can't hang them. Literally. Some of them are under my bed. I can tell you have to take care of that. But, you know, I used to chase the accolades, the achievements, and I was still joyless. It was always like that idea of happiness onto the next, well, this will make me happy. And it just wasn't. It wasn't doing that for me. The values that really bring you meaning and purpose are different than the superficial values. For me, they're things like helping my community, really being connected to my family, you know, tapping into creativity. Those are the things that I look forward to. Those are the things that my last five minutes on Earth, I'm gonna be like, I wish I had more of that.
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A
Sure.
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B
You know, not like a jd. Yeah.
- [27:39]
A
Not another paper on the wall.
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B
Right.
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A
I have the same problem. I have all these pieces of papers I've accumulated, and then you'll find this hilarious, but I actually, like, lost my medical school graduation certificate for a few years because I took it off the wall because there was no room for it. Put something else up, and it ended up behind a bookshelf somewhere and I didn't even notice it was gone.
- [28:04]
B
And that tells me and those are hard to replace.
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A
They are. They are hard to replace. But it's like, it just tells you those pieces of paper you don't even notice is gone for years sometimes. Because once you achieve it, it's done. And it's not like you're walking by and saying, you know, all the time and thinking like, oh, I'm so proud. I got that. It's always on to the next thing. Right? And so, yeah, at some point, collecting those pieces of paper becomes just, you know, you. You get no happiness from it anymore.
- [28:31]
B
I know. I. I know. You and I both know people who have, like, fellowship upon, fellowship upon. And you're like, when are you gonna stop that?
- [28:38]
A
Right, exactly.
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B
It's never enough. Right. And it's different if, you know, you have that inner curiosity and that really does light you up. But for many, it's out of scarcity. It's like, well, I have to always be on top of the. I have to be the best. I have to get this. And it's not out of a joyful experience. It's really that, like, the external idea of happiness.
- [29:00]
A
That's true. That's true. And I think, you know, now I look at it more as the joy of learning. I love learning new things just because I get joy from learning the new thing. It's not about the piece of paper anymore. Right?
- [29:11]
B
Same.
- [29:12]
A
Yeah.
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B
Yeah.
- [29:13]
A
So, okay, we talked about validation and
- [29:15]
B
the other v. So the fourth is vitals. And this is where you come in, right? Medical doctors will tell you sleep, they'll tell you make sure that you're eating the right foods, getting the movement. But I snuck in three non traditional vital signs that most doctors don't ask about. Like, when was the last time your doctor in the 15 minute visit asked you, like, if you're in a toxic relationship. Right. They just don't.
- [29:39]
A
Right.
- [29:39]
B
They don't want to go there. But your relationships, you know, the value of your relationships, the quality impacts, your physical health and mental health. Your relationship with technology is something that we're learning not just impacts children, but also adults. And there was a recent study out of one of the University of Texas schools where they took the smartphone capacity away from these adults for about four weeks, and then they measured their happiness points. After four weeks, it looked as if those who had the smartphone removed were being treated with an antidepressant. So the researchers asked them, well, what was what's going on? And what they reported was that they were sleeping better, they were on their phones, they were out in nature, they were Getting movement. They were talking to their loved ones. Right. All those points of joy that we measure in the research, they were getting more of those points. So really understand how being on devices, how being connected to technology is impacting you. Right, Right. And there's this entire center called the Stanford Zoom Fatigue center, where they study the impact of being on virtual meetings all day. And what they found is that people are just so tense on these virtual meetings because it's not natural to see my face next to your face. I'm not supposed to see my face talking to you. You know, I'm designed to talk to you. Right. And then look at your body language and see, oh, are you connecting with me? Are you safe? Not like, how did I fix my hair today? Like what I do, you know? So I think we're not really aware of how technology impacts adult brains. We are. It's all over the news about pediatric brains, but it impacts us, too. And then the third non traditional vital sign is our work life. Work life relationship. Leaving work at work and having a home life.
- [31:17]
A
Yeah. Wow. There's so many things to consider, for sure. So is it better, like, if you are going to do a zoom meeting, just to turn off the camera that's showing yourself and just only see the other person? I've not done this before, but it's. You're absolutely right. Like, this connection that we're having right now, I don't see my own face next to you. Right. So this. You feel more connected when you're focused on the other individual rather than splitting your focus between yourself and the other individual.
- [31:44]
B
Yeah. It is better, actually. It's one of their recommendations. And I just gave a talk to a large corporation and all of the employees, not one person disagreed. They were like, that is so true. Because when you're on a zoom, the moment that comes, that meeting comes up and you're ready for it, your body just gets tight. You start, like, getting all stressed out. You start performing, and then you're looking at, like, 10 faces, you know, at once. Again, not. Not natural. You know, when we're in person, face to face in meetings, there's usually a round table. You're looking this way, you're looking that way. Not everyone's, like, performing at once. So it's very unnatural. It's draining and it's. We're losing our points of joy.
- [32:22]
A
Yeah. One of the things I talk to people about when we talk about connection is I always bring up, like, I love doing podcasts because finally, after years of not feeling connected to people. I feel connected again because I'm having a conversation with someone about a topic I care about, and I'm not distracted by a device, for example. Right. And I think a lot of people are missing connection and actually feeling lonely despite having a hundred zoom meetings a day. Right. Because they're so distracted and they're not. They don't feel a connection anymore, and they've even forgotten how to connect. And I think it's a big problem in society right now.
- [33:02]
B
It is. It's a point of joy.
- [33:04]
A
Right.
- [33:04]
B
You know, feeling connected to people, that's actually a point. You know, the fifth V is vision Planning Joy. And I often use the example of my team in my lab. Right. When we finish a study, like a big study.
- [33:15]
A
Yes.
- [33:16]
B
And we wrap it up rather than just going on to the next. We celebrate. And it's important because if we just celebrated. Okay, the study's done. That was a beast. That was hard. That's a goal, an idea.
- [33:28]
A
Right.
- [33:28]
B
You know, the external, the happiness. If we just celebrated that, there's always gonna be another study. Right?
- [33:33]
A
Yeah.
- [33:33]
B
But our team won't always be the same. People go to grad school or they go have babies and get married. Right. That point of joy of connection, we lost that point if we didn't celebrate together. So we meet in our lab. We have our local bakery that we go to. Right. That we get the pastries from. But we always do something together. So it's important to celebrate that point of joy of connection, not just this idea of this goal that's so powerful.
- [33:59]
A
Yeah. I think, once again, we're always onto the next thing. And creating those celebratory moments is really powerful. I assume you're probably doing things like that with your family as well, maybe with your friends. Right. I love that.
- [34:13]
B
I used to not do that, but every day I have this practice where when I get my daughter to school on time because her school is so strict, like, even if you're a minute late, they make you wait outside. It's like the walk of shame.
- [34:23]
A
Yeah.
- [34:24]
B
But if I get her there on time, then I sit in my living room afterwards and I just, like, have this delicious cup of coffee. I got this coffee in the Caribbean, and I figured out who made it, and I've been ordering it ever since. And it's like this. It's so delicious. And I just sit there, and that's my time. And I look forward to that point of joy every day. And that's the vision. That's, like, the thing. My win. That I'm celebrating and I put it on my calendar and everybody knows it. That's my time. So carve out that joy, whatever it is for you. It could be maybe the couple of minutes you have before you get home, in between work and going home, or getting your kid going for a walk, doing something that's joyful for you.
- [35:02]
A
Yeah. That's so powerful. Going back to devices as well. I think in going all the way back to the beginning of our conversation, finding those moments of joy in your day to day life. Right. Like when you're eating a meal, for example. Did you enjoy the taste you mentioned? I think the phones also drain us of those moments because when you're eating with your phone in your hand, you don't even think about your food.
- [35:24]
B
No, you don't. You're not even tasting your food. You're literally just shoving it in. You know, you're like, I mean, sometimes if, like I'm really busy and I'm not practicing what I preach, I'll be like, what did I just eat? You know, so that just goes to show you that when you are not present, your body is so disconnected from your brain. And many people will say, like, oh, where did the time go? Right, right. So that's another indication that you need to be more present. You need to be experiencing that internal joy versus living in the future. Because you're literally missing out on your life.
- [35:58]
A
Absolutely. And same when you're having a conversation with your phone sitting next to you on the table and responding to every buzz and beep on the. And I also, one piece of advice I give to all my patients too, is charge your phone outside of your bedroom at nighttime when you're sleeping. Almost 95% of people now use their phone as their alarm clock.
- [36:18]
B
Yes.
- [36:19]
A
And it's the last thing they see at night. First thing they see in the morning.
- [36:22]
B
It is.
- [36:22]
A
And when you move the charger to a different place, whether it's in your closet, your bathroom, I actually keep my phone charger at the coffee machine where I make coffee in the morning, which is the farthest point in my house from my bedroom. And it just creates that physical separation, but more of like 10 or 15 minutes every single morning before I get a cup of coffee that I don't have my phone with me. And it's a powerful shift in your perspective.
- [36:45]
B
It is. Have you heard of the phone beds? Some people have a little bed for their phone and they put it in another room.
- [36:50]
A
Yeah, that's like Arianna Huffington's thing, I think yes. You wrote one of the first books on sleep, and that was such a great thing that she had mentioned. That's awesome. I'm really excited about reading your book. So tell me a little bit more about what people will learn from your book. High Functioning.
- [37:06]
B
I wanted people to have tools that were evidence based because, again, not everyone has access to a therapist or a psychiatrist. In some parts of the United States, there's only one psychiatrist for every 30,000 people. So I really wanted to put practical tools in there that anyone could understand. And I did it that way intentionally, because as I started to create social media content online, people were saying, I want more. I want. I need more information. And I felt like, you know, just doing short form wasn't a responsible way to do that. So I really wanted to put as much information as possible in one place. That's why I do a lot of interviews, podcast interviews, because people are getting their information digitally these days. They're not really getting it from their doctors directly. You don't have that much time with your doctor. Not everyone has access. And I was teaching doctors at a major institution how to do press interviews. That's how. Yeah, I got involved in media about. When I was in training, the director of the program said, we're opening a new wing. There are press here. Like, we need people who are actually working in the wing to talk to the press. And that was me. I was like, sure, I'll do it. And like, when I saw that article, I was like, oh, my gosh, why don't we learn how to talk to the press? Because I sound terrible. So I went to my director and I was like, I sounded so terrible. Why don't we get this training? And he was like, why don't you create the training? And I was like, oh, okay. I was like, why do I have to say something? As if I don't have enough work. But I created this course, and I'm so glad that he was Socratic in his method and made me teach myself and then others, because that led to being on air, representing several institutions on air. And then when it was Covid time, the doctors were like, we need to learn how to talk, you know, to people using social media, not just on AR interviews. So that's how I started creating this information on social media, and it just blew up. So that led me to write this book and to really put this information out there. I know people need it. They need this information.
- [39:05]
A
They absolutely do. So this is like almost like a DIY manual to get started before. If you don't have access, or before you even see a therapist, it's a great way to get started down all of your teachings around joy and happiness and living a more fulfilled life.
- [39:19]
B
Yeah, absolutely. You don't have to wait to start to heal. Healing starts literally at home. And then as you get more familiar, you educate yourself. Then you know what to ask a health professional when you're there. It's better to be prepared than to just show up and be like, fix me. Right?
- [39:35]
A
Right.
- [39:35]
B
Like, learn first.
- [39:37]
A
In, you know, in my field in functional medicine and longevity medicine, I find that my patients that have the best results of any treatment that we do have already read something, have already researched, have already done the work themselves prior to coming, because then they've already checked off a lot of the simple boxes already and we can take them to a higher level of protocols and treatments. Whereas if someone comes in like they don't know anything and I'm sitting there talking to them about how they should avoid ultra processed food, like, you're starting at a much different place. So I love it that for your work, this book kind of gives them that starting point.
- [40:14]
B
Yeah, there's actually a term for it. It's called psychoeducation. And it's the first step, you know, in therapy. Once you develop an alliance with a patient, then you start this process called psychoeducation. But you can start that psycho education at home by reading, by learning, by listening to podcasts.
- [40:32]
A
Yes. Everyone should get psychoeducated.
- [40:34]
B
Yes, for sure.
- [40:36]
A
Because you need to know about how your psychology works. This is such an important book and I'm so excited that you wrote it. And thank you so much for talking to my audience about this.
- [40:45]
B
Oh, my gosh, thank you so much. It was a joy.
- [40:49]
A
I love it. How can people find you and learn more from you? The book is called High Functioning. And people can order this now, right?
- [40:56]
B
Yes, they can order it wherever books are sold. Follow me on socials. DrJudithJoseph. And that's my website as well. DrJudithJoseph.com I love it.
- [41:05]
A
You're so eloquent. You have so much incredible knowledge and I really applaud you for doing the research and moving the field forward.
- [41:12]
B
Oh, thank you so much.
- [41:14]
A
We'll talk soon again.
- [41:14]
B
Okay, bye.
- [41:18]
A
Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Please remember to subscribe if you like this episode and give us a good review and share a link with your friends. It really helps to support all of our efforts. I also want to remind you that the information shared on this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended to replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Please consult with your healthcare provider or physician before making any decisions or taking any action based on what you hear today, especially if you have any underlying health conditions or on any medications. Your doctor knows your personal health situation the best, and it's always important to seek their guidance.