← Extend Podcast with Darshan Shah, MD
Extend Podcast with Darshan Shah, MD
183. Rachel Lambert & Angie Noack: Why 70% Of ADHD Diagnoses Are Wrong
00:53:56
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- [00:00]
A
Before we get started with this episode, I'd like to invite all of you to the first ever next Health Longevity Summit happening in Nashville, Tennessee at the Conrad Hotel on Saturday, September 12, 2026. This is an all day summit where you're going to be hearing from some of the best speakers in longevity medicine, including Dr. Vonda Wright, Dr. Luisa Nicola, many of the podcast guests that you've heard here on the Extend podcast. And of course I'm going to be there curating the entire day. We also have incredible vendors coming so that you can try the latest technologies in health, wellness and longevity. Go to next health.com summit and buy your ticket today. We only have 400 spots and they're going quickly. That's next health.com summit. I look forward to seeing you all there. Welcome to Xtend with me, Dr. Darshan Shah, a podcast dedicated to cutting edge science, research, tools and protocols designed to help you extend your health span. Having become one of the youngest doctors in the country at the age of 21 and trained and board certified at the Mayo Clinic, I've accumulated three decades of practice as a board certified surgeon and longevity expert. Over that time, I've discovered that a mere 20% of health knowledge yields 80% of the results. When it comes to your health span, we are living in a new era where we are creating a new healthcare system no longer focused on disease management, but achieving optimal health and vitality. Join me as I interview world renowned experts on offering you a step by step guide to proactively avoid disease and most importantly, extend your health span. Today I'm gonna be talking about one of the most important and often overlooked aspects of longevity, your brain. Most of us track our heart, health, our blood work and fitness, but very few of us have ever looked at how the brain is actually functioning in real time. What if you can measure your brain activity and understand why you're struggling with things like anxiety, poor sleep, attention deficit, brain fog or chronic stress and then actually train your brain to start working better. Today's guests are Rachel Lambert and Angie Nowak. They're the founders of Brain Code Centers where they're using advanced brain mapping and neurofeedback to help people optimize their mental health, their cognitive performance and their resilience. They work with everyone from patients struggling with trauma and depression to professional athletes, executives, first responders, all looking to perform at their best. In this episode, we're gonna break down how brain mapping works, what your brain waves can reveal about your health, and how neurofeedback may Help your brain build healthier patterns over time. Let's get into it. Rachel and Angie, thanks so much for being on Xtend today. This is fantastic to have both of you finally, finally, finally.
- [02:45]
B
I'm so excited.
- [02:46]
A
It's been a long time coming. I've been such a huge fan of what you're doing at brain code centers, and I can't wait for my audience to hear about brain mapping and what it's used for and all the different use cases. But, you know, I think for a lot of people, they've never even heard of brain mapping. Right. So maybe we can just talk about, just real quick, like, what is brain mapping?
- [03:05]
B
Yeah, yeah. So a brain map is a quantitative electroencephalogram. So we're looking at brain wave activity. I think a lot of times people are like, what are you actually measuring? Is it a CT scan? Is it a spect image? We're actually just looking at brain wave activity. So the electrical current that the brain naturally produces. Brain maps show us all sorts of amazing things. Clinical patterns for adhd, anxiety, trauma, sleep issues, traumatic brain injury, all sorts of different patterns. So we can really understand root cause for where symptomology is stemming from that.
- [03:37]
A
It's so interesting because, you know, when people look at the brain, there's different ways that you can look at the brain. There's the anatomy of the brain, which a lot of times there's MRI or a CAT scan. There's blood flow to the brain as well. Right. And so I know there's clinics that also do, like, blood flow analysis of the brain. And then this. However, EEG has been around probably the longest time out of all of those.
- [03:59]
C
Right? Yeah.
- [04:00]
A
And so tell us, like, why the EEG works. Like, what is going on in the brain that the EEG is picking up on?
- [04:08]
B
Absolutely.
- [04:09]
C
So we're looking at all of the electrical neurological wave activity, but the lens of which we see it is through the lens of brain waves, as all humans have the capability of producing the same brain waves. So you have delta, deep, slow sleep, theta drifting into sleep. Alpha is kind of a receptor that helps move the brain around. Beta, clean, focused, motivational energy. And then high beta is fight or flight. And if our brain is functioning optimally for us, we're able to shift in and out of wave activity. Okay, I need to go to sleep at night. I tap into theta, go into delta. Oh, a bear is chasing me. I need high beta to tell me to get away. The problem is when we get stuck in wave activity. Right. And that's Maybe somebody who had trauma or, you know, different experiences or high stress for a long time, and then they feel like they're living in fight or flight. Hyper vigilance always. And we look at a brain map and that is the case. Right. And we see that. Yes. So it's when the brain doesn't have flexibility and as much plasticity to move around, that's really where brain mapping and neurofeedback can come in and make change.
- [05:06]
A
Yeah. And so the way this works, and these are like if for the people that are listening, we actually have on our table the device that you use to get a brain map on somebody. So it's in a little black case here. Like, looks like you can just mail this to someone's house. Right. And there's little electrodes and I guess there's a cap. There's the cap that you have. So someone can literally get this device to their home and do a brain map.
- [05:28]
B
Absolutely. Yes. We wanted to make it very user friendly. We've, we've been in the, in the industry for, gosh, 17 plus years. But we really wanted to be able to make this more accessible for individuals. Right. In a day and time where we are, we're so distracted. We're going a hundred miles per hour. People are traveling. It's hard more than ever, I believe, to just truly be disciplined, to get into a clinic and to keep coming back. And so about five years ago, we said, oh my gosh, let's try to figure out a way to make this more accessible and make it more user friendly because we want mental health and wellness to be truly just easier than ever. So, yep, we are able to ship this package out. People always get a little like, what are these electrodes? So scary. This is truly just little electrodes that allow us to pick up brainwave activity. It's completely non invasive. We're not doing anything. This is not a stress test. We're not even asking you questions. So we have our clientele, we walk them through it on a zoom. But they plug these little electrodes in the cap. We get the cap faceted on their head, kind of like a swim cap. And then we do a recording. So think about it more like an EKG of a heartbeat, ultrasound of a body part. It is simply a measuring tool so we can identify what's going on inside.
- [06:38]
A
Right. So when you're measuring electrical activity, you don't necessarily need to put electricity through the brain. You're just seeing all what the brain's electrical activity is doing. How many different Points are there for this. How many different electrodes you put on there?
- [06:50]
B
We have a few different. We have kind of a remote mini map. We have a handful of different ways to do it. We're either doing a 4 channel, 8 channel, or in our in person clinics, we're doing a 19 channel.
- [07:00]
A
Got it. And so you wear this cap for how long?
- [07:03]
B
It depends how well people can sit still and reduce muscle tension and emg. Sometimes a remote map, we can get it done in 10 minutes. Sometimes it takes 30. Just.
- [07:12]
A
Okay, so not too long. 10, 30 minutes just sitting there. And you're saying you're not like doing any testing or anything while you're doing. You just gotta sit there with this thing on.
- [07:20]
B
Yeah, correct.
- [07:20]
A
And then it tells you what are the electrical signals in your brain doing, which is incredible information. So the exposure I have, like, as a doctor to this is basically two. One is in surgery taking out tumors and doing like epilepsy surgery. And another one was like, sleep clinics would use this a lot. Right. But then you have to go to a clinic, spend the night there, and tons of wires all over the place.
- [07:43]
B
That's right.
- [07:44]
A
And it just seems so complicated. Like you have to have someone at your house, like a technician come and do this for you, but you've made it so simple that you could do it yourself.
- [07:54]
C
Yeah, no, that's exactly right. That we needed it to be so much more accessible. I have done an in office or an in hospital sleep study, and you're absolutely right at 50 wires coming off of me. So sometimes I do feel like when we talk about brain maps, people have this idea in their mind of just such a complicated and extensive process, and you're going to ask me all these questions or all these things, and we really, it. We had to break it down where it's a lot more accessible and a lot easier. Now, this is not DIY at home where you're flying solo and someone's not on zoom with you. We will get on a call with you. We're gonna get on a zoom, help walk you through that process. But it's much simpler, I think, than what people are thinking it's going to be.
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A
Yeah, yeah, exactly. And that's what I want to bring out in this podcast, is that you've really simplified the process. I think many people, probably 99.9% of people, don't have a brain map of their brain. And that's because it's way too complicated to get it. You don't even know where to. I know you guys have brain code centers in Boulder and Texas. Right. Where are the other ones?
- [08:51]
C
Denver, Tulsa and Dallas are in person centers.
- [08:54]
A
Got it. So people can actually come to those locations. But that's only three cities in the world. And now you can mail this device to people and they can do it
- [09:01]
C
at home across the world.
- [09:03]
A
That is awesome. And so say someone gets this at home, why are they getting this device? What are they suffering with? What do they want to look at? Why would you do a brain map?
- [09:14]
B
Yeah. So we're licensed professional counselors by trade and we're board certified in neurofeedback. So our heartbeat really around brain code centers is helping people with anxiety, depression, trauma, adhd, sleep issues, you name it. And so we're everybody, right. We're really like, you're more, you're. I would say more medical. Right. We're a little bit more of a therapeutic component and solutions to what's going on with your mental health and wellness now. We absolutely. It's not just for those that are suffering. I mean, we work with a lot of professional athletes and people that are really wanting to focus on longevity. How do I make my best asset, my brain just stay healthy and, and have high performance for a really long time. And so while many of our clientele are struggling and suffering, I mean, oftentimes I think people are wanting to, to keep that cognitive, cognitive edge up as they age. But yeah, those are the people that reach out to us is truly those that are typically struggling. We also work with a ton of first responders, so police and fire, ptsd, sleep performance, that's a huge focus of the population we serve, even ptsd.
- [10:15]
A
Wow. So, so some people are suffering and they're working with you. But there's other, like you said, athletes, probably CEOs, that also want to keep their brain extremely sharp and functioning well. And a device like this would help them understand kind of what is the situation going on right now. But then the device is also helping you do the therapies too. Right. So are people doing therapies with you while they're wearing the device?
- [10:37]
C
Yeah, so what we're doing. So it's not something, think about it, software versus hardware. Right. A lot of the things that we do for our brain are more like software updates on a computer. Right. Counseling, meditation, you know, all these things that are more on a cognitive level. Neurofeedback is happening on that kind of deeper down neurological level. So that's really. If we need a software update on our computer, let software update. If we have a hardware Issue going on. How can we address that? That really is the neurofeedback. So we're looking at it on that deeper down level. So no, we're not having someone, you know, while they're actually, you know, have the headset on, we're not having them do a lot of tasks. You actually have an app on your phone that you log into, you have the headset on that's really working as the amplifier. So neurofeedback is ultimately operant conditioning of the brain. It's reward based training. We're teaching the brain to create new neural pathways through reward. Think about if you're teaching a baby to walk and the baby's walking towards you and it falls over, you're not like, oh buddy, your proprioception was off. You would never, you know, give them a manual. You give them reward. Yeah, keep going. Novelty stimulus. That's what we're giving the brain is lights and sounds and action when their brain is producing the wave activity that is favorable to them.
- [11:47]
A
Got it.
- [11:47]
C
So maybe somebody with anxiety, Right. Has a lot of high beta, a lot of fight, orf flight and we need to help their brain produce more theta calming, focus, motivation. So we're pulling down on this, pushing up on this, but only rewarding the brain when it is doing what we're asking it to. So screen gets brighter, volume goes up. Essentially their brain kind of has the remote control to the system, but not with thoughts, with waves.
- [12:11]
A
Yeah. So you're actually seeing what's going on in your brain and then you're modifying your thought patterns to get those rewards that you're seeing on your device.
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C
Modifying your wave activity.
- [12:21]
A
Your wave activity.
- [12:22]
C
So kind of as a culture, I think we have focused very heavily on thoughts. Right. Where think it, be it. And that's what's really hard about something like mental health. You're feeling anxious, we'll just stop.
- [12:32]
A
Right.
- [12:32]
C
Be more positive. Right. Think better. And we're going, oh my gosh. Well, if it was that easy one, we would not be at, you know, the highest depression, anxiety and suicide rates that we've been in ever. Right. Since 2022, we have the highest suicide rates across the country than ever before. And they have stayed steady.
- [12:49]
A
Terrible.
- [12:50]
C
Yeah. So we have more access to more mental health than ever before in history, but we are sicker than we ever have been. Why is that? Because it's not something you can just cognitively overcome. Right. But similarly, we would not expect to learn a new language by power of will. I'm just going to, I'M just going to learn Spanish by tomorrow. Well, no chance. I need to study, I need repetition, I need habitry. That is what we're doing on a deep down neurological level, creating those new neural pathways. So it's not about overcoming with thoughts, it's about teaching the brain, training the brain, learning a new skill.
- [13:23]
A
So interesting. And so there's another device on this table which looks like a headband. Right. With electrodes on it as well. So this is a separate device that you use for the actual training part of this?
- [13:32]
B
Yes, yes.
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A
So explain the difference between the devices, if you don't mind.
- [13:35]
B
Absolutely. So, like Angie was describing, this is just the baseline. So think we are going to take a data driven approach to mental health, a root cause approach to mental health, and we need to access more of a quantitative normative database to understand that so we can really see. Okay, well, why are you anxious? Why aren't you able to fall asleep? This is the why. And then this is really, what are we going to do about it next? So this is the neurofeedback that Angie was describing. So what happens is our clients, you know, you come, come home from work after a long day, you put this headband on and then you're going to pull up the app. Our clinical team has set up all of your custom protocols on the back end. You as the client, don't have to think about any of that. You then pull up your app and then you're going to click on whatever video you want to watch. You're probably already watching Netflix. You maybe want to just put on the extend podcast and watch that for 20 minutes.
- [14:23]
A
Everyone's watching podcast.
- [14:25]
B
And this is the cool thing is people are already watching podcasts. Why not train your brain whilst doing that? So, so then like Angie was saying, it's almost like your brain has the remote control. If your brain is regulating its wave activity like we're challenging it to on the back end, then your podcast plays, you can hear Dr. Shah, you can see the screen big on the app. But when your brain starts to get dysregulated or fall outside of the optimal zone of thresholding the video and the sound goes away. What that does is it teaches your brain, hey, our brains don't want to see gaps in what it's watching. We never want to have, you know, that lack of stimuli. So your brain makes an autocorrection on your behalf. That video and sound starts to come back. So it's a little bit more of a subconscious learning, truly. It's not like you're having to will power your way through these 20 minute sessions. But I think people usually experience definitely being relaxed and present and mindful through it. People will say, have you ever had someone just they can't get the screen to go on? Well, no. And we have it set up so if it's too hard, we'll give your brain a second to understand it before we make the challenge level more challenging again. But yeah, it tends to be, it tends to be very relaxing. And then ultimately while you're training, the whole outcome is how is that changing your behavior outside of the training? So as your brain gets stronger and more flexible, flexible and more adaptable, you're going to experience that in real life change all of a sudden, you know, two, two nights later, oh my gosh, I was able to fall asleep at night. Oh my gosh. I'm showing up different for my family. Wow. My kiddo is not struggling with adhd. I'm not getting calls from the teacher every week. And that's really what it's all about through this training.
- [15:58]
A
Such a genius way of doing it because everyone's watching something anyway. So absolutely this gets your brain waves to modify based on what's happening on your screen for something that you're watching. And so the reward is you get to watch it.
- [16:10]
B
That's right, exactly.
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A
So simple. And so you do this for like 20 minutes a day or generally I
- [16:15]
C
would say most people are doing three to four times a week. So this isn't something that you have to do every single day. I mean, just as you don't have to work out every single day to build muscle, right. That your brain is an organ, not a muscle, but it can be flexed that way. So most people, we say three to four times a week for about six months and that's going to be about 20 minutes. And those sessions are not live with someone. So it's not, oh, Angie's only available at, you know, 2:00pm for 10 in the morning, 6:00 clock at night, whatever is most convenient for you. And again, it's repetition over time. Right. It maybe took us 30 years to create the neural pathway that we're working with right now that isn't bad, but just isn't serving us well. Well, some people might consider it bad, right, if they're dealing with really horrible insomnia or anxiety or something. So it's going to take a little bit of time to train that. But then as we train that this is not something that you should have to do forever. Right. This isn't like medication where it has a shelf life in your brain or in your body, it's teaching your brain to do it on its own.
- [17:08]
A
So interesting. So I'm 52 right now, but I'm still pushing all of my limits. I'm running long distances, I travel across many time zones to support my work, and I just want to live my life to the fullest. Staying active as I age isn't just about willpower. It's about supporting my mitochondria, the powerhouses of my cells, with the energy that they need to recharge my muscles and recharge my brain. Mitopure is a supplement that I take. It's backed by solid research showing that it can boost cellular energy, increase muscle strength, and support overall healthy aging. Personally, I take Mitopure every single day. It's helped me continue my active lifestyle, whether it's a high intensity workout or keeping up with my kids. So if you are looking to support your body and want to feel younger from the inside out, my friends at Timeline are offering you a 10% discount on your first order. Go to timeline.com drshaw to get started. That's timeline.com forward/drsh. Your future self will thank you. How often then are you doing a new brain map to send to you to see kind of like the progress?
- [18:21]
C
Great question. So we do a brain map at the beginning and sometimes we do a cue, you know, halfway through or at the end. We actually have with our first responders, we usually do a before and after. The proof of change is absolutely incredible. Right. That's why we love when we look on social media and we see before and after bodybuilding or weight loss or because you can see the change. So obviously before and after brain maps are absolutely incredible. We actually on our Instagram, we have a lot of before and after brain maps where, you know, you see somebody go from three standard deviations above the mean to normative or two standard deviations below the mean to normative. But you might be thinking like, oh, well, are you just flying blind the rest of the time? No, we're watching what your brain is producing via micro voltage on the back end every single session. Even though you have the headset at home. Our trainers are receiving all of that information. So we can see how your brain is flexing and changing as you go. So you should be experiencing that qualitative change. We're seeing the quantitative change.
- [19:15]
A
Got it, Got it. So this is actually also sending you data.
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C
That's right.
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A
As well. Okay, so this is how many channels Again, the home test is 18, you said.
- [19:24]
C
So we do have a 19 channel queue. This is a four channel queue.
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A
Four channel queue. And this is sending you four channels of data as well. Or how much, how many data?
- [19:32]
B
It depends how, it depends how our protocols are set up. So when you're doing coherence training up, so for people that are listening, that would be more like you're making your right and your left hemisphere talk to one another. It might not be you're only working on your temporal lobe on the right side or oh my gosh, I'm only going to focus on my parietal lobe. There's a lot of different intricacies we can do on the back end to set up training protocols. And that gets a little bit more into like, yeah, the, the science and how the, the clinics are, are training it. But we're doing that all basis how we see the brain map, what your outcomes are. We can get very, very finite with the more information that we have. And honestly, the more introspective our clients are. We have some really cool, like, peak performance clients where they're like, I just want to drop my handicap by, by one or I want to be this much faster. And it's so cool that you can actually look at the brain and then develop a protocol that's completely customized to them.
- [20:22]
A
So cool. Okay, so, you know, you mentioned there's all these brain waves that you're looking at and reasons people come to you for, like ADHD depression. Can you make the connection between like, the reasons people are coming to you and what those brainwaves doing? Like, for example, let's start with depression. What does that look like on a brain map?
- [20:40]
B
Oh my gosh, we love that question. So there's so much research and data when it comes to patterns and symptomology. Right. And so if as therapists, someone comes in with a DSM diagnosis of depression, right, Then we as the practitioners are asking ourselves kind of why did they get that, that diagnoses? Most people are not actually looking at the brain. Zero percent of people with an ADHD diagnoses typically have a, an actual report of their brain, which is incredible. Right. We have to be measuring the organ that we're treating.
- [21:12]
A
I mean, this is what a lot of people talk about. Like we're making all these diagnoses and putting people into these buckets.
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B
It's incredible.
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A
Not looked at the brain, right to
- [21:20]
B
this day, obviously it still is like shocking for us. But depression typically shows itself with what's called alpha asymmetry so brain waves and alpha should not be higher in power or higher in voltage in your frontal lobe and then a second, especially when that translates into left hemisphere alpha. And there's too much alpha production in the left hemisphere versus the right hemisphere. That's gonna be classic depression pattern.
- [21:45]
A
Right.
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B
However, a lot of times people will experience depressive symptoms, but they might not have the root neurological cause of why that's happening.
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C
Right.
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B
Maybe actually anxiety is the one that's driving the boat. Maybe they're overthinking, which can show us in some other patterns. Right. Of misdiagnosis of depression. And so that's, again, why it's so important to not just understand the symptoms, but understand the root cause.
- [22:05]
C
Why?
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A
Yeah. And so, like, my point there, too, was that if you do have something else that has depressive symptoms without looking at the brain, you might be treating the wrong diagnosis 100%.
- [22:18]
C
This comes down to reliability versus validity. So Thomas Insel was actually the director of the National Institute for Mental Health, and he kind of criticized the DSM 5, saying there's a lot of reliability, meaning that us as counselors see X, Y and Z symptoms, and we all reliably agree we're going to use this diagnosis, but there's actually very little validity saying that there's no underlying biological reason as to why that's happening.
- [22:40]
A
Right.
- [22:41]
C
But why wouldn't we look at that? Why wouldn't we do. If you were going to go in, you know, treat someone for surgery, you probably wouldn't say, let's find out when we get there. Let's just start cutting and, you know, see what happens. Long. Oh, my gosh. Absolutely. We would do a scan. We want to see what's going on before we actually go in. But that's not how mental health is, is treated. And that truly has to change. And that really is what we're doing with brain mapping and neurofeedback is looking at the organ that we're going to treat, creating a treatment plan based off of exactly what's happening biologically for you versus, I mean, anxiety alone can come from 50 different patterns in the brain.
- [23:12]
A
Exactly. Yeah. Anxiety is a diagnosis thrown around, and people are put on medications constantly. And, you know, and I think you guys probably believe this as well. We have this DSM book of diagnoses for psychological conditions. But it's really, in my opinion, there's such a spectrum to every single one of those diseases, and there's so many combinations of things going wrong, and we're trying to, like, pigeonhole People, these diagnoses so that they can get a medication and we're not really looking at what's going on, the why and customizing a program for them. And so, I mean it's really backwards. But with this tool now we have more vision into what's actually happening. Right. And so that's what I think. Maybe everyone that has a diagnosis on some sort of medication for adhd, depression, whatever, that they might want to consider doing a brain map and really understanding is that the right diagnosis?
- [24:02]
B
Absolutely. And how many people don't want to be reliant on medication? Right, right. Or their, their medication, they're having to up the dose or take another medication. You know, there's a time and a place for, for medication, but most people, if they really, really check in, it's like, I don't want to feel like dependent on this to be able to focus and perform and show up. So. Absolutely.
- [24:22]
A
Yeah. And so if someone has depression, let's go back to depression and they're taking an antidepressant medication like an SSRI or something. You do the map, say it really is depression. What is a treatment program that you would give them? Like how would they go through the treatment with you guys? And how often do you see people get off their medication or lower their dose?
- [24:41]
B
Oh my gosh. We have these visual forms of freedom at our in person clinics where people can come in, we'll obviously black out their names and they can put their empty medication bottles there just for other people coming in and seeing. Like, oh my gosh. Look, this is not something that I have to rely on. But as far as treatment planning goes, again we're going to do that brain map, but they're still going to be doing neurofeedback.
- [25:05]
A
Yeah.
- [25:05]
B
What's happening on the back end is really where that magic, that clinical magic is happening. So whether it's depression or there's some comorbidity going on, and we also need to work on some anxiety and you also want to get off your medication. I mean, our treatment team is incredible and our clinical team is incredible and so they'll look at all of that to develop that plan. So really neurofeedback is going to be that plan. Now we'll look at some other things too, like do they need to go get some blood work? Are we seeing some other things going on basis their brain map? And hey, probably don't start with neurofeedback first. Let's address some hormones. Let's go see Dr. Shah at next Health and Really understand your biomarkers and what other things are happening. Cause that's critically important for our success as well. And so that's why we're so big at looking at the big picture. And holistically, what's happening with both the brain but also the body.
- [25:50]
A
Yeah, that's such a great point. And I talk about this all the time whenever I'm on a podcast, is that people seem to think that the brain and the body are very separated, and they're absolutely not. I mean, if you have not gotten a standard blood test done and corrected vitamin D deficiencies, corrected iron deficiencies, looked at, you know, inflammatory markers, then what's going on up here in your brain, you're gonna have such a much harder time treating it and vice versa as well. If you're having a lot of physical symptoms and you're not looking at what's going on in the brain, it's very difficult to treat the physical symptoms as well. They're so interactive.
- [26:27]
C
They have to be. Absolutely. I mean, the gut brain connection, we know all of these things. But you're exactly right that I would say as a society, we tend to focus very heavily neck down. Right. And even if we're doing all the right things, we see people come in and are going, but I'm still suffering with X, Y and Z. What else is there? And I mean, I also can say, you know, I was talking to a woman well into her 40s the other day and said, when was the last time you did a hormone panel? Well, never. I'm going, oh, my goodness. You know, like, let's go in and. Let's go, go in and do that before we start neuro, just to make sure that everything looks good, that your hormones are functioning the way that they need to. Because with neuro, we might be bumping up against a wall at some point. If you have super dysregulated estrogen or testosterone or you know, whatnot.
- [27:07]
A
Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, I think what happens to a lot of people is they get like pigeonholed into one bucket. Like, if you have a brain problem, it's just your brain. Let's throw medications at it, let's give you therapy. And if you have a body problem, it's just a body problem. And like you said, people get really hyper focus that getting their biomarkers right, but they're not doing anything for their brain as well. So they have to go together.
- [27:29]
C
We are holistic. It is top down, literally top of your head to the bottom of your feet. We have to look at everything. And maybe you've done all of a lot of neck down work, right? That, that is a big piece of your puzzle. But maybe neuro is the last piece of your puzzle or vice versa. You have done a lot of self work and counseling and brain training, but now we have to get, you know, the body work in. So health is, is a series of puzzles. It's very rarely a silver bullet.
- [27:53]
A
Yeah, absolutely. So can we talk about attention deficit? Because I see a lot of people also that are on medications for adhd, right? Adults and kids. How do you approach that type of a person? Patient.
- [28:04]
B
So the majority of people, at least our internal metrics, truly like 70% of people that come in with an ADHD diagnosis or their self proclaimed ADHD, they don't have a neurological ADHD pattern at all.
- [28:19]
C
70% of people, if not higher.
- [28:22]
B
Now not saying that your, your Ritalin doesn't feel a little bit good. I mean, sure, people love their Ritalin, might feel great. Does your brain actually need it? So in our, in our world we're looking at something called a theta beta ratio. So how much theta production is there to your beta? ADHD is very interesting, right, because the most classic form of ADHD that would pair best with a stimulant would be that slower pattern.
- [28:46]
A
Right.
- [28:46]
B
The majority of people think that they are ADHD because they're hyperactive and they can't sit still and they're easily bored and all these things. We look at it more like you're probably going 150 miles an hour down the highway, which is why you're distracted. A true ADHD person is actually kind of swimming in their own theta. They're in this slower, more calm, more creative, more relaxed state. And so what's happening during the day is you can't be slow and tired and lethargic during the day. So your brain's trying to constantly put it into an alert state. So it produces all this little beta, but it's not sustainable. And so though that is the classic pattern, which honestly most, most people do not have, usually they have a very fast processing speed, they have a bunch of high beta, which is your stress brain wave on your motor strip, which is your cingulate. And so it's hard to sit still, but it's a completely different pattern. And so it's always just fun for us to, to make some jokes when people not, not actually, but you know, they're like, yeah, I'm adhd. I'm like, no you're not.
- [29:41]
C
No you're not.
- [29:42]
A
Do you tell them, like, that's not what your brain scan shows you.
- [29:45]
B
Depends who we're talking to.
- [29:47]
C
And again, so an ADHD diagnosis, it is a set of symptoms. I will absolutely say, hey, I totally see why you have that diagnosis. I see all of the symptoms. But here's the neurological pattern that you're showing. Similarly with kids. The amount of kids that we see come in on a stimulant who have no business being on a stimulant. And parents are going, well, yeah, they're. They have all these behavioral issues now, but I guess they're a little more focused at school. I'm going to. You're putting a stimulant into an already overstimulated brain. Right. So that, I mean, it just creates a whole different set of problems. So maybe it solves some school problems, but then creates a lot of other problems. So at that point, we're kind of chasing our tail. So it really is more about that education that. I'm not saying you don't have the symptoms that you have. I'm telling you where they're coming from.
- [30:27]
A
So I know I. My kids are young. They're 12 and nine. And a lot of the families are asking like, hey, I think my kid has adhd. Like, do I need to take him to a doctor and get him on medication? I'm like, no, first, go do the testing. Make sure they have adhd. So would. What age groups can you use this home test with?
- [30:47]
B
We've mapped kids as young as 4 and 5. I tend to like to map kids closer to, like, seven to nine, to be honest, because then they're going to be a lot easier at sitting still and going through the process. And it's not stressful. Typically, when we've done younger than that, it's someone that's really struggling or someone that's on the spectrum and their parents are just feeling really hopeless. But, yeah, I'd say the best age. I did my first brain map on my oldest son, who was 7 at the time. He's now 9. And it went great. So I feel like 7 is, like, kind of our sweet spot. But, yeah, we see. I'd say in our. In our practice, we see about 40% of kids. We see a lot of kids, a lot of young adults. Absolutely.
- [31:24]
A
Makes sense.
- [31:25]
B
They do. Incredible, right? And I think a lot of times people ask us the question, well, you know, gosh, is it way easier to train kids? And, you know, I'm. I'm 50, and my brain's kind of stuck in its ways. First off, the brain is always neuroplastic. It is always willing to change. It's always capable of learning. You just have to give it a catalyst in which to do so. However, what's great about kids is they, they haven't, you know, created these habitries and behaviors where they're a little bit more stuck in their ways, if you will. So you're not trying to work on both changing their brain but also getting them unstuck out of habitry. So that's where we pair with parents to really say your brain is just as capable as changing as your kiddo. But we might have to put in kind of some behavioral intentionalities along the way as well.
- [32:06]
A
Makes total sense. And so this treatment band as well, kids can wear this too and do the same treatment program.
- [32:12]
C
Oh, absolutely, yeah. The headset. So yeah, if you have a family of five and you're like, man, we, we all want to do neurofeedback, you don't need to buy five headsets. You can have one headset, you know, share it around the family. Everybody would have their own individual protocols. Right. That everything is individualized to them, but they can absolutely use the same equipment.
- [32:27]
A
Yeah. And kids love watching YouTube videos, so this is perfect for them.
- [32:30]
C
Your kid wants it anyways. Yeah. That we don't get a lot of pushback from kids being like, do you want 20 more minutes of screen? Yes, please.
- [32:37]
A
I Love that. Hi, Dr. Shah here. I want to take a minute to talk to you about cellular health. So in my clinics, I've actually seen 30 year old people with cells that look like they're pushing retirement. And I've also seen 60 year olds with cells that look like they're 40 years old. So what's the difference? It's really about how fast their telomeres are breaking down. Your cells you see, are like phones and they have limited cell phone battery, poor sleep, stress, processed foods. All of these things can drain that battery way faster than it should. So this is the reason why I partnered with ima. IMA powers that cellular battery. It's not just another multivitamin. It's a comprehensive 92 ingredient formula designed specifically for cellular health and longevity. I'm talking 900 milligrams of vitamin C. That's like 20 oranges worth of DNA protection, the clinical dose of CoQ10 that you need to power your cellular engine. You also get zinc, selenium, vitamin E, alpha lipoic acid. All of these work synergistically for cellular repair and protecting your telomeres so instead of taking a handful of pills every day and all these supplements, Im8 actually gives you everything that you need in one scientifically formulated system. And this isn't just a theory anymore. IMAID had partnered with Oxford University, the International Space Station San Francisco Research Institute, and they've done studies and they've gotten this NSF certified to truly power your health. Most people are aging twice as fast as they should. Unfortunately, you don't have to be one of them. Try im8. I actually have a discount secured for you if you go to drshaw.comim8 or go to imaidhealth.com discount DrShaw and you can get 20% off with my discount code. Dr. Shah, you can also find the link below. Let's talk about anxiety. So let's what kind of patterns are you seeing with anxiety? How do you work with someone that has anxiety issues?
- [34:39]
C
Honestly, I would say anxiety is one of the number one things that we treat. We are overstressed, overstimulated under slept culture. Right. That that's just kind of the hustle culture of the United States. Right. That it's a badge of honor that I work 90 hours and I sleep two hours a night and all these things. And that compounds over time. Right. So there's a ton of different patterns for I would say anxiety symptomology. It also 10 people might come in with the same symptoms. It's 10 different patterns. Right. If you've seen one brain map. You've seen one brain map.
- [35:07]
A
Yeah.
- [35:07]
C
Right. So I would say that usually we see a lot of overactivity, high beta. But if somebody with high beta in the prefrontal cortex is going to be possibly a lot more reactive, maybe a little bit more easily frustrated, a lot shorter wick somebody with high beta in the occipital area is going to have a really hard time falling asleep down, regulating feeling, a lot more physical anxiety, tummy upset, chest tightness, brain racing. So even, you know, two people having very extreme anxiety are going to experience that very differently. But again, everything's going to be tailored to that person. So every single person coming in with anxiety is going to have completely individualized protocols to them. But a lot of times we see that overstimulation kind of dysregulation in the brain with anxiety.
- [35:50]
A
Is anxiety and insomnia kind of like two sides of the same coin or very different?
- [35:55]
C
It depends. It absolutely depends. You know, we do have people come in with insomnia who they think it's a delta issue. Right. Delta is sleep, wave Activity. They actually have very nice regulated delta, but their brain is so fast. And that's where we're going to ask questions. Do you have a hard time falling asleep? Well, yeah, I can't shut my brain off at night. I need to have two whiskeys before I can even think about, you know, shutting my eyes at night. Well, yeah, because going to sleep at night is not safe for your brain. Right. Your brain is trying to solve the world's problems. Your, your alpha, you know, up regulates when it should be down regulating. So that really depends. Also, I do see people who possibly have had possibly a traumatic brain injury, a concussion history, who have a lot of extra delta, which now you might be thinking, well, if you have extra delta, do you sleep? Great. It also creates an insomnia pattern because the brain doesn't actually know when it should be asleep. So they're suffering with brain fog and, you know, lack of motivation, but also can't sleep at night. So again, it just depends. What does the brain map show us?
- [36:48]
A
So interesting. And so if someone has insomnia, they can also get a brain map. Do they do a brain map at nighttime or do they do it kind of like during the day?
- [36:56]
B
It's so interesting. People will say, you know, I've been struggling with panic attacks for years, but how are you gonna see that I have panic attacks? Right. Almost like they're worri that we're not going to find it or something. And it's more about where the brain is or isn't shifting into at that moment. Right. Just because you aren't having a panic. Now, does your brain have too much high beta in the parietal lobe and occipital lobe, then absolutely. That's probably going to give your brain the nice ability to shift into a panic. And so when it comes to insomnia, no, we don't need to be having you in a sleep state, like more of a medical sleep study for us to see. Your brain is not efficiently downshifting into sleep. And here are the two or three reasons why, at least from a neurological standpoint, why that's happening. Now, that doesn't take into consideration hormones, histamine responses, all the other things, which is why we want to look at that too, with people like yourselves. But at least from a, from a brainwave standpoint, we can see it.
- [37:48]
A
You can do the brain map at any time and still help people with insomnia.
- [37:50]
B
Anxiety 100 actually the first.
- [37:52]
C
So we work a ton with first responders in Colorado fire police, and I would say Sleep is the number one thing that they see change with. Right. With our first responders, they are trained to be upregulated, right. To keep people safe, be hyper vigilant. Also, a lot of them are doing shift work. So even, you know, hey, I have two hours to sleep. You think they're getting good restorative sleep in that. In that two hours? So truly that when we start working with first responders, the number one and the first thing that we hear is my sleep is starting to change. I've slept better than I have in the last 20 years. If you can get your sleep dialed in, a lot of other things are going to start to fall into place.
- [38:25]
B
And our first responders are always the most skeptical. They're like, what is this therapy? But then they're also the best trusted source of gossip. So if one of them starts sleeping, then you get 20 calls the next day. So, like, I don't know what wildfire headset is, but I need that.
- [38:41]
A
I love that. I love that. And so we've talked about a lot of mental health kind of issues, but also I see this being very powerful for people that are looking for optimizing their brain function. Right? So say you have like a athlete or a CEO or someone who's just, you know, just wants to make sure their brain is functioning as optimally as possible. How would you approach that person? And also, you know, there's another group of people that are looking to improve their hrv, their heart rate variability as well. I kind of look at those two things together, right? If you're functioning optimally, you have a high HRV as well. Can you kind of take us through that process?
- [39:15]
B
Yeah. So when I first started brain code, I actually found myself working with a bunch of Denver Broncos. It was super fun. I had known a neurologist that was working with them, so he started referring some of his patients over to me. And most of them are wanting to work on some concussion recovery, but obviously peak performance and timing and just ensuring that their brain was super healthy because obviously they're going to get knocked in the head a few more times. So it was really fun to not only do some concussion recovery, but also peak performance training. Right. And for them, that looks like recovery. How well do they recover on the field, off the field, but also too, a lot of professional athletes that are coming to us, they already are doing spectacular on the field. It's about what's happening afterwards. So, you know, can they shift into sleep? Are they feeling hyper vigilant? If they did get Hit on. On the field, you know, how well does their brain bounce back from that? So we do a lot of resiliency training through our neurofeedback with them as well. But then when you're talking about hrv, it makes me think of all of our professional golfers that we work with. Right. You're having to go from crushing it, you know, with your driver, and then slowing down within 15 minutes, getting into a completely different heart rate variability when you're about to make a putt. That takes an incredible amount of neurological adaptability. So when you can teach the brain to shift in and out of those different states, these guys, you know, we get great text messages after big rounds, and I'm like, thank you. Like, my brain was so dialed in, I was able to access flow state so much easier and sustain that flow state because they believe they did the training.
- [40:43]
A
Yeah, yeah. That flow state is really just a shifting into a high HRV state. Right. In a really parasympathetic state while you're still being able to perform and pay attention as well.
- [40:54]
C
So that's right.
- [40:55]
A
And this, you can train this as well. Right. Just with a few minutes a day.
- [40:59]
C
That's exactly. It's giving the brain that neurological flexibility. Sometimes we need to be in sympathetic. Right, that makes sense. Often we get stuck in sympathetic. So we have to be able to downregulate into that parasympathetic even when something stressful happens. Right. Let's say you hit that drive and it was terrible, right. That now you're walking to your next shot going, oh, my gosh. That. You know, now I have to dig myself out of the woods or I just missed that pass. But the game must go on. Are you able to, rather than immediately upregulate and stay there? You were up there for a minute, now you go back down. Right. So it's giving the brain that flexibility. That's exactly what the training is.
- [41:34]
A
I love it.
- [41:34]
B
What's crazy, too, is we see it on our end. Like, you can literally see the electricity in the brain change. And that's what I think is so cool about what we do, is it's this cause and effect. If you know you're staying in that sustained state of stress, your brainwaves are going to be really high and really fast and out of rhythm. You can literally see it. And it's either creating harmony or it's creating disruption. And so what we love to do is, through the lens of education, show people. Yes. What are your thoughts doing? Yes. What is your heart Rate, variability, doing. But ultimately, if you can then get your brain waves back in a rhythmic state, you're ultimately going to have better outcomes.
- [42:10]
A
Yeah. I kind of see, like, you guys looking at these brainwave maps and, you know, it's almost like reading music, right? Like, you can. If you can read music, then you can read music. These brainwave maps, they look like the most complicated EKG you've ever seen. But I can imagine being in your head when you look at them. You see what the brain is doing and what's going on there. Right?
- [42:28]
C
It's actually a very beautiful word. Yeah, no, that's exactly right. It is like reading music that, you know, someone else might look at it and go, this looks like chaos. And we're like, we see music notes and we see, you know, all of these different things happening. That's exactly right.
- [42:40]
A
That's so cool. That is amazing. So we covered a lot of ground here. We covered attention deficit depression, anxiety, sleep disorders, like insomnia, and also optimizing your brain and your hrv. Did we miss anything about why people would choose to get their brain mapped and go through a treatment protocol?
- [42:59]
B
You know, I'll give my story of bipolar disorder, very significant mood disorder. You know, ultimately, our bread and butter is anxiety, adhd, sleep performance. That is like. That is a huge population that we work with. But oftentimes we are getting people where they have exhausted all their options, they've tried everything. And so probably like, next health, we get a lot of really complicated cases where the people are like, this is my last hope. This is my last straw. I've tried everything. And they probably honestly are coming in pretty hopeless and wondering if this is even gonna work. And so we love those cases as well, because we've had so many stories of success. But I would say that would be more what I related to. When I was a teenager, really struggling with my mental health. I had wonderful. A wonderful family system. My parents were incredible. So it wasn't like I was growing up with a lot of stress or a lot of trauma, but my behavior was completely reckless and completely out of control. I was abusing drugs and alcohol. I had gotten arrested a number of times. I would get out of jail and then, like, go and do the exact same thing. Nothing was. Was making sense, at least for the behavior and the consequences that I was reaping. So finally my parents said, okay, we have to find a solution for our daughter. So I personally didn't want to take medication. So I was kind of stubborn even as a teenager. Like, no I don't wanna go beyond meds. So thankfully, my parents found out about brain mapping and I did a brain map. The results showed a pattern for bipolar disorder. So that. That was the first glimpse into. Okay, that actually makes sense. Cause we. Nothing else had made sense before.
- [44:31]
A
So no one diagnosed you the best bipolar before. You just thought that you had behavioral issues. And then your parents.
- [44:37]
B
Teenage rebellion.
- [44:38]
A
Yeah. That's so incredible. And so your parents took you to a brain mapping center and got a brain map.
- [44:43]
B
Absolutely.
- [44:44]
A
Found the bipolar. And then what happened?
- [44:46]
B
So then I did a series of neurofeedback. So, yeah, I trained my brain for the next. I did it more in an intensive setting. So I went almost every day, which I wouldn't always honestly recommend because it took my brain, my behavior quite a bit of. To catch up with my brain's new ability afterwards. That's a different part of the story. But ultimately I did the brain training. I did about 40 sessions within two months, did a second scan at the end of it. Not one clinical pattern for bipolar. And I specifically remember just being at those clinics and it was like the first time ever I felt calm and in control and less emotionally reactive and just like grounded. And so it lit a fire inside my soul. I was like, well, this is what I'm called to do. I'm gonna go figure out how to get some letters next to my name. And then, you know, happenstance grew one of the largest neurofeedback practices in the country. But that is truly because of the results that we've gotten. Like, when people experience relief and freedom from what they're struggling with, then they go tell, you know, they go tell other people. So it's been incredible. And I always just love people to say, like, you might have a diagnosis, you might have struggles, but your brain is so capable of change. I haven't been on meds or struggled with any DSM diagnosis of bipolar since I was a teenager.
- [46:02]
A
That's incredible. How many patients you guys have, man?
- [46:06]
B
Say over the. We've probably seen about like 25,000.
- [46:10]
A
Wow, 25,000. So you probably have one of the biggest database of brain maps in the world too.
- [46:15]
B
We'd have to see if it's like a database, but.
- [46:18]
C
And so the database that we use too is a global database.
- [46:21]
A
Oh, yeah.
- [46:21]
C
When we talk about, you know, a normative database, we're using one that, you know, everybody uses. So that's the beautiful thing. We have so much data to compare to.
- [46:29]
A
That's amazing. I had no idea. There's a Global database of brain maps that you can compare your brain maps to and get an idea of what's happening. Amazing. And then what is your story? How did you end up in this field?
- [46:39]
C
Oh, man. It is funny that I feel like, honestly, neurofeedback found me. I did not find it. I was always probably a little more neurologically based growing up. I also grew up in a really beautiful and healthy and functional family. But as, you know, a teen and as a kid, I was a little bit under motivated, kind of lazy, not doing a whole lot. And like any classic underachiever, I told myself, when I get to college, I'm gonna get it together. I'm gonna start caring, worry about my grades. I had no habitry in place in order to make that happen. So I got to college and, you know, the lack of caring continued. Then When I was 19, I was visiting my family for the summer. I went to donate blood and ended up passing out when I left. And the way in which I fell, I suffered a skull fracture and traumatic brain injury. Spent weeks in intensive care. And when I was released, I was actually released in a walker. I had significant vestibular issues and was not able to walk on my own. Just such a, you know, kind of a random, you know, situation. But honestly, even if I could go back and change it, I wouldn't because it impacted me so profoundly. My neurosurgeon, you know, kind of just said, this might be as good as it's gonna get. And fortunately, my mom was crunchy before it was called to be crunchy. And she said, we do not accept that answer. That will not be, you know, my daughter's future. So we went and found a lot of alternative forms of medicine. Vestibular therapy, vision therapy, cognitive therapy. Learned to walk on my own. And it also lit a fire in me that a brain injury does not make you smarter. But it made me driven and, you know, gave me kind of grit, and so fought back, relearned to walk. Finished my undergraduate, finished my master's degree, and I met Rachel and, you know, just absolutely one of the most incredible, profound women that I've ever met. And we just very much aligned on our mission of making the world healthy and healing brains and teaching people what they're capable of, because we knew what we were capable of.
- [48:24]
A
Yeah, I'm so glad you guys found each other, because this needs to be distributed. Like, I think in Los Angeles there may be, like, one or two brain training centers, and people just don't have access. And it's hard. It's hard to get to center every day to do the training and you know, people can't fit into their routines, especially if things are. If you're trying to just optimize. Right. And so it's so amazing that you guys got together and created a way for people to do this anywhere you are in the country. Right. And just put this on and get a map and then, then do the treatment program all on your device. It's fantastic.
- [48:57]
B
Yeah, yeah, we love it. And we do, we always find it interesting. We get a ton of calls from California.
- [49:02]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:02]
B
And people can't find clinics out here. I don't know what, I don't know what you guys are doing out here in la, but brain centers. Here we go.
- [49:08]
C
It is surprising. I had a friend in Malibu and you know, he wanted to do neurofeedback and this was seven years ago before we had rolled out our fantastic remote program. I was calling around, I think I found two people, both of which, God bless, I would not send him to. I said, you need to hold tight. You know, we're developing a, like, give, give us a minute. Because it just wasn't, it was not a good option. They weren't using what, you know, in my opinion was kind of credible equipment, things like that. So, yeah, it, it's really interesting. California, I think would be kind of prime for that. And there's not a lot of options.
- [49:39]
A
Yeah, well, I'm, I'm really looking forward to working with you guys and bringing this to Next Health. So let's make it happen and have more patients have access to this. I think it's, it's critical. You know, we're in such a bad place in our society where people get diagnoses for mental health issues and get given medications that have tons of complications and long term issues with them. And it's just so automatic now. And so people don't even know there are other options out there, such as brain training and using EEG and neurofeedback. And I think it's a very viable option. And why would you not do it? There's like no risk to it.
- [50:13]
B
It. That is the nice thing about neurofeedback is you're just creating a learned behavior so there's nothing happening to your brain. Even though people are like, is that like a shock collar? Like what are you doing with those old prongs? But truly it's non invasive and so we're able to, to make tweaks to the protocol as we go. And I mean, the Side effects typically are, like, a little bit of fatigue, maybe, maybe some irritability or maybe a slight headache early on. But just like when you're, you know, starting anything new, you're challenging your body to do some new things. Like, if you look at it as assimilation, growth, you know, all of that can be pretty well mitigated with just some pretty easy conversations with our clinical team.
- [50:51]
A
Yeah, and that's fantastic. I think a lot of these devices that people can buy online right now, you just give it a device and an app and like, go for it. And that's not real treatment. This is the real therapy. Having a human behind the data, giving you the protocols. I mean, that's what's going to make this successful. So people have tried something out there. I know there's a lot of these neurofeedback devices and it hasn't worked. It's probably because there's not a professional behind the screen like you guys have.
- [51:17]
C
Dr. Shah, that's exactly the problem. You know, we would never speak ill of another neurofeedback clinic, but you're right that when, you know, I was looking for neurofeedback in California, I'm finding people who bought equipment online and really they're not doing a brain map. They're not. The equipment that they're using is very plug and play. And when we talked about anxiety can come from 50 different patterns. You have about a 1 in 50 chance then that you're training the right patterns. If you didn't do a brain map. Right. And you might run into that with functional medicine, that, that you can slap the term functional medicine on a lot of things and then you look into it a little bit deeper and go, I don't think this is actually functional. I don't think this is wellness. I don't. So I do encourage people that we get that a lot who have gone, I've done neurofeedback and it didn't work for me. And I'm going, oh, man, that. That actually doesn't give me a lot of information. Did they do a brain map? Did they do customized protocols? Who was it? You know, so. So I truly encourage people that if, if you've done it before and it didn't work, let's have at least a conversation to decide, is it still a good fit for you? And maybe that wasn't the right time or wasn't the right place.
- [52:10]
A
Yeah, I absolutely, 100% agree. Well, I'm so excited to have met you guys and have you on the podcast. So more people can hear about the incredible work that you're doing. How can they find the program? How can they find both of you? Give us the information.
- [52:26]
B
Yeah, go follow us on Instagram. Braincode Centers. We love doing consultations, so love getting to actually meet you and talk with you and learn about your struggles and offer you hope on how we can help. So, so always take advantage of free consultations so we can really address questions and stuff like that. But yeah, I would say braincodecenters.com, schedule
- [52:45]
A
a consultation and people can either go to one of your centers, one of your three centers, or they can even order this device on that website.
- [52:51]
B
Yeah, absolutely.
- [52:52]
A
Fantastic. And we'll be linking to this on our show notes as well.
- [52:54]
B
Thank you, thank you.
- [52:55]
A
Thank you so much for being here. I look forward to having you guys back on again sometime when you have something new to talk about.
- [53:01]
B
Absolutely. We can't wait.
- [53:02]
A
Thank you.
- [53:02]
B
Thank you.
- [53:06]
A
Thank you so much for listening to the podcast today. Please remember to subscribe if you like this episode and give us a good review and share a link with your friends. It really helps to support all of our efforts. I also want to remind you that the information shared on this podcast is for educational purposes only and is not intended to replace professional medical advice, diagnosis or treatment. Please consult with your healthcare provider or physician before making any decisions or taking any action based on what you hear today, especially if you have any underlying health conditions or on any medications. Your doctor knows your personal health situation the best and it's always important to seek their guidance.