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Faith Matters
123. Behind the Scenes at Faith Matters — Bill Turnbull, Aubrey Chaves, Tim Chaves, and Zach Davis
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- [00:00]
A
Hi, this is Sarah Perkins Sabie, one of the authors of the Bible Storybook. We're so excited to have partnered with Faith Matters to bring you beautifully told Scripture stories as a podcast that you can listen to with your kids and share with your friends and family. We're making half of the stories available completely free is a podcast called Scripture Stories for Little Saints, and the other half are available to donors and friends of Faith Matters as a thank you for your financial support that makes this collaboration possible. If you have trouble accessing them, you can email faith matters@infoaithmatters.org and they'll be happy to help. Thank you so much for your generous and ongoing support. We're so excited to share these stories with you and can't wait for you to hear them. Now onto the podcast. Hey everybody, this is Aubrey Chavez from Faith Matters. For today's episode, we're doing something a little bit different. With all of the exciting things happening at Faith Matters, we thought that it would be a good time to take a step back and take stock of what we've done and share more about where we're going. We've. We also take some time to discuss the questions about Faith Matters that we hear most often and share more about our purpose and approach. Tim and I were joined by one of Faith Matters founders, Bill Turnbull, as well as Faith Matters new Executive director, Zach Davis, who will be a voice that you'll continue to hear on the podcast. We want to send all of you a huge thank you as always for listening and for supporting us. And with that, we'll jump right in.
- [01:18]
B
All right, well, I am sitting here with a group of remarkable people. Aubrey, my wife. Good to see you. And also Bill Turnbull and Zach Davis. Hey guys.
- [01:30]
C
Hey, Tim.
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D
Hi, Tim.
- [01:31]
B
Aubrey, it's good to be with all of you. Today. We're going to have a conversation that should be a lot of fun. It's going to be maybe more free flowing than usual. You as listeners, you may notice that we don't have. Everyone here is part of the Faith Matters team. This is the first time that we've done this and we thought that we would take advantage of this, this moment that we're all together to talk about where Faith Matters has come from and what we're doing and, and where it's going. That sound good to everybody?
- [02:04]
C
That sounds fun.
- [02:05]
B
Yeah, I think it should be. I. We think that a good place to start maybe Bill is, is actually with you. You were among the original group of Faith Matters founders. That. And that can't be said about anybody else around this. Around this table. And we were noting, interestingly, that neither Aubrey nor I, despite our involvement over the past several years, have heard the real origin story of where faith matters came to be. So could you give us a little bit of that? Just background for our own enlightenment?
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C
Yeah, maybe it's, you know, since COVID we all have a different sense of chronology now.
- [02:36]
B
Time is mostly meaningless at this point.
- [02:38]
C
Yeah. Space and time are just constructs, so we're going to flow into something. Well, let me. I would say that I've always wished so if I go back far enough when I was like, I don't know, Zach's age and just. Well, actually, during my college experience, I had been so well served by the church in my life. I encountered God in powerful ways in my youth and was led to serve a mission and marry an amazing person. And all in this. The vision that my faith created for me was, like, really, really helpful. And. And so I have a very, very strong commitment, as you guys know, because we've spent a lot of time. A lot of time hanging out and talking. But I think, you know, how my. How deep my commitment to the faith goes, and I feel like it's like, continues to transform me and. And fuel that transformation. I also am aware that when I reached a certain point, and it was really during my college years, my university years at byu, my faith and the worldview that it provided me began feeling a little small. I was encountering a much broader world, even on my mission. You know, as you're a missionary, I'm in Italy, and I love my mission there. But you. You encounter people in a certain way, and you're not really opening yourself up. You're not really taught to open yourself up, to experience their world maybe the way they do, and to really look at where our face. What our face. Place in the world is. So, you know, as I began to study, gosh, world history, I was interested in everything. And my. So my. My university days were full of. I was just curious about everything. And I just got to a point where I was wondering how my faith, my worldview, could really accommodate what I was seeing in the world. Does that sound familiar to all of you guys?
- [04:45]
B
Yes. Now, I'm wondering, though, like, what's sort of coming up for me is specifically what. Well, no, it's more like, are you sort of euphemizing what we would, in this last decade would call faith crisis? Or is that not what you're. Is that not what you're saying?
- [04:58]
C
I mean, I think eventually it led to some questions about, you know, what truth claims and historical theme, things that I had to deal with in a different way. Right. And those. I think right now, in. At this point of time in the church right now, we are in a very difficult and disruptive period. Yes, there's no doubt about that. We're seeing it. And so I experienced, like, maybe the leading edge of that when I was very young. Right. And so I, you know, I. So two things happened. I. First thing I was. I became very nourished in. In ways by people outside of our tradition. You know, people practices, ideas. So the excitement that I maybe was beginning to lose for my own faith, I was beginning to find in other places, which was really, I mean, kind of an expansive experience for me. It made me. It helped me identify much to a much greater extent with people outside of our tradition and people in other cultures and people look at the world different in different ways. But it also, like, at the cost maybe of, like, maybe a full. I was never disengaged with the church I loved. I always loved the church and what it did for my life. But, you know, I'm. Well, I'm very familiar with that experience when you're sitting in church and like, is anybody asking the same questions or like, are we. Are we still going to just kind of repeat these same formulas and keep doing that? And so.
- [06:36]
B
Yeah, well, because potentially the church back then was even. Well, the way I imagine, you know, this is sort of an era where, you know, Bruce R. McConkey is at the height of his powers. Like, I imagine that church that I didn't really experience.
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C
How do you think I am?
- [06:51]
B
Okay. Sorry.
- [06:52]
C
No, but, like, not far from it. Like, I had a. I had a copy of Mormon Doctrine, like, on my mission. And when I have to say, though, that I got to a point in my life where that book became distasteful to me because the thing about Mormon doctrine, the thing about the project of the church, we were doing a lot of telling people what to think. And in that book, Bruce McConkey tells you about what to think about every single thing. And there's a good reason why we jettisoned that book and it's not in print anymore. It was not a healthy thing to do, but he was also feeding, like, something that people. There was a demand for that kind of thing. Right. And I come from that era when there was a demand for that kind of thing.
- [07:36]
B
Yes. Which I imagine to be a very sort of constrictive environment and potentially that if you were public in any way with this type of thinking that you might have received significant pushback or is that not right?
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C
Yeah, yeah, sure. I mean, everybody experiences that. Like, you asked that question. Like, it. It feels like you've stepped over some boundary somewhere.
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D
Yeah.
- [07:57]
C
So I had an experience. Can I just share this? When I was. I think this was in around 1990, we. This was a formative experience for me. So we moved into a new ward, and this was in Idaho. And straight. We had this, like, really interesting mix of people in this ward. Some. Some real, like, genuine intellectuals, even today, some of the brightest people that I've. That I've known. And they had caused a little bit of a tumult in the ward because they were like. They wanted to talk about things that the ward was not comfortable talking about. Right. And so it was like one of those. We moved in this ward and this dynamic already existed, and they had actually. The bishop had actually disinvited them to participate in Sunday school.
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D
Oh, whoa.
- [08:45]
C
In, like, in. In gospel doctrine. Right. So that was like, they were, you know, they were sort of made pariahs in their ward. And about this time that bishop got released and, you know, he was just, like, dealing with pushback from members. He didn't know really how to deal with this. So he says, could you. Would you guys just mind just, like, not coming to Sunday school? Because just caught. I'm. I'm having to deal with too much. And I, you know, like, I. I sympathize with him, but. But that's not the right way to handle it. So the next bishop happened to be my attorney. He was called to be bishop, and he came to me. And we didn't know each other that well, but he'd helped me set up some businesses. He said he knew enough. I guess he sensed. He said, would you like to teach a Sunday school class for these people? That was. So what we did is, like, we created this Sunday school class that was. And all we talked about is the fundamental principles of the gospel, but in really rich ways. But we also said, like, any question, you can bring any question, but let's all be sensitive to the, like, what spirit that question brings. Like, sometimes we need to be disrupted. And it's like, it's uncomfortable, but it's uncomfortable in a good way. And sometimes it's coming out of anger or something like that. And, like, can well just be sensitive to that. So we had this, like, really rich experience. And eventually the crafts class class grew. We had defectors from the other gospel doctrine Class. We just given this, like, this one classroom, the standard LDS meeting house classroom, and it kind of was bursting at the seams at some point. But I think that taught me that there is a way to honestly approach real questions in a real faithful way. So I always had my eyes out for maybe some. Somebody that was doing that. Right. The. The church needs to accommodate the, you know, the, the believer that's just joined and just needs to like, become a disciple and learn those. Those steps and like, you know, so. So the, the church can't really like, create what we created in that Sunday school class. And so. So, so who's going to do that? The fact is we, like, we don't live. Everything comes from the top down. Right? There's conversations happening everywhere. I wanted to create a space. My vision was like, to create a space that I would have loved to have when I was your age. You know, that was like the broad intention where you can like, really explore the power of our faith and also talk about, like to like, ask hard questions and not like, shy away from. And then just kind of realize that they're hard, you know, and. And maybe there's. That's where we're supposed to be transforming, you know, that. So I guess I. You use this term, David Brooks term, like the edge of inside. Right. I know you like. So I'm just. Can I get you to share your thoughts about that?
- [11:51]
B
Yeah, well, I can say that I think it's that. And maybe this is an appropriate time for Aubrey and I to talk a little bit about how we got involved. But what drew us to Faith Matters was very much the vision that you just painted. I mean, we were searching for space, the same type of space that you were searching for. I think our faith crisis was more the stereotypical faith crisis that was brought on by the Internet and, you know, just new information that we felt like we had never experienced, you know, and that's sort of like throwing us for a. For a loop, you know.
- [12:28]
C
Yeah.
- [12:30]
B
Coming across the work of Terrell Gibbons was instrumental in sort of helping us, you know, stick around at least long enough to feel like we could figure something out. I think until we encountered. Encountered faith matters, what we were searching for really was certainty. Like, I felt like we were going to stay in long enough to know if, quote, unquote, the church was true or it was not true. And then, you know, if we, if we found out once and for all that it was true, then we would stay. And if we found out once and for all that it wasn't True. And I'm for listeners, I'm air quoting a lot here. Then we would leave. And I think Faith Matters reframed that entire paradigm for us. It gave us. It gave us values in faith and even in religion outside of. Outside of belief and knowledge. It sort of reoriented us in terms of real connection to the divine and to our fellow human beings, but sort of necessarily that placed us not in the center of the church anymore, you know, because that, I think at the center of the church there is. I mean, there are really valid and honorable values that are there, like belief and like loyalty and duty. But with the paradigm that we sort of took on in those, in those years, we were sort of by default, not in that center, center anymore. And this idea of the edge of inside started to really resonate with us. Maybe I should read a paragraph here from David Brooks. This was published in 2016, and he credits Richard Rohr for the original idea. Both of those articles are easily Googleable, but he says a person at the edge of inside can be the strongest reformer. This person has the loyalty of a faithful insider, but the judgment of the critical outsider. Martin. Martin Luther King Jr. Had an authentic inner experience of what it meant to be an American. This love allowed him to critique America from the values he learned from America. He could be utterly relentless in bringing America back closer to herself precisely because his devotion to American ideals was so fervent.
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D
Hmm.
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B
Aubrey, I feel like you need to check in.
- [14:52]
A
Well, I just. This is super interesting, Bill, because I really haven't ever heard the how this all started. And, and what you're describing is exactly the thing that not. We weren't just searching for, like we were desperate for. Like, when you talk about the classroom bursting at the scenes, like we were bursting at the seams, like our, our. I know a lot of people don't resonate with the term faith crisis, but for us, that was the word. Like our world was falling apart. And so Terryl is the first person that I ever heard who just who had a real peace about these, about the uncertainty and it. And we were just so hungry to hear more people model this. This way of being in the world, this way of having faith without and not certainty. Because up until that point, I really. I use those words interchangeably, like. Or I use certainty and faith interchangeably like the stronger your faith, the more certain you were. And so it was really destabilizing to start being honest with myself about questions because it felt like what it meant is I didn't have faith and so there was so much shame that I would go to church in just so much pain because I felt. It felt very inauthentic. I felt like we were hiding this secret, which was that we didn't have a testimony. Like, we did not have testimonies. And it was terrifying. And that was the only way I could describe the experience that I was having. And even though I think the whole experience happened because we had the best of intentions, like, we. We were so committed that it was in an effort to learn more and to understand more and to be. You know, I. I read, like, really got into church history out of the most honest belief that I could desensitize myself to, like, the pain of it all. Like, if I could just get. If I could read everything I could find about polygamy, it wouldn't hurt so much. And then I would be able to see God's hand. And, like, the opposite happened. Like, everything fell apart. And so hearing Terrell and Richard Bushman was another of those very first few voices in Fiona that they knew all of the hardest parts of the history, and they were still. They were staying and they were growing and finding value. And it didn't come from this place of absolutely knowing that the church was true in the way that I had always believed. I was supposed to know they were there and finding value because of the hard things, because they were wrestling with all of the hard things. And so out of desperation, we were reaching for this, for what faith matters became. And Thomas, in a really recent conversation, said that there's a way that sincere seeking will. Let's see, how did he put it? There's a way that way leads to way if there's real sincere searching. And that is exactly what it felt like. It was out of desperation that we sort of found ourselves in these circles over and over again with the same people who kept. Who kept resonating with that energy of just like wrestling being a good thing and not a shameful thing. And that's something that I hadn't ever heard articulated or experienced before. And it was just. It was such a different kind of relief up until that point. I think we were reaching for apologetics and. Or anything that would. That would dispel the dissonance. And so a lot of times that looks like, just give me an easy answer because then I'll stop having to feel how uncomfortable this is. And this was a new kind of peace. It was a. It was a piece inside all of the dissonance. And I'd never experienced that before. And so it felt like, it felt like the first place that we could really rest inside all of our questions.
- [18:28]
B
And can I just say, like, what you just said really resonates with what David Brooks said here. Like, this love allowed him to critique America from the values he learned from America. And like, I feel like you're describing, like, struggling with what you're encountering, encountering within, quote, unquote, Mormonism because of the values that you learn from Mormonism and a very healthy, you know, first half of life that said, honesty is important, equality is important, love is important. And you were. The distance that you're describing is saying, wait a second, I'm learning things that don't look like those values that I have deeply embedded in me because of my religious upbringing and how do I deal with that?
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D
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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C
I think there's. And by the way, you mentioned, like, there are apologetics organizations that, like, basically their job is to play defense. And I think they serve an admirable role, probably a necessary role. It's not what we do, though. That's not the enterprise that I'm interested in. We, like, I think, I feel like we play offense at Faith Matters. We're confident enough in the truths that the gospel affords us that we can also look at, like, that we can take those to the world. And we can also look at, like, what, what work we still have to do. And, and so we have something at Faith Matters that we call the Gottman Ratio. That, that's, and that comes, that derives from John and Julie Gottman, the, the really outstanding marriage and family researchers. And they. I, I read a book and he, he has this, he had this ratio. He says, if you want to be in. They, they found in all of their clinical work that if they were sitting across the table from a couple and in their interactions, they weren't saying five positive things for each critical thing. At least five. Right. That was like, there's a breaking point below five. The marriage was probably, that relationship was probably going to end, you know, well, so as an act of love, actually to affirm and to be positive toward your community of faith. I, I consider, like, my relationship with the church a relationship like. And so I think, why wouldn't those same. Why wouldn't those same principles apply? And so we broadly sort of try to apply this Gottman Ratio and Faith Matters. We better, we better see if we're not saying at least five positive things for every negative thing, we're probably entering into a toxic relationship. Even though you don't know it, it's really, really easy to scan what you see in, in, you know, in your activity or experience in the church and scan for negative things and you can come up with all kinds of them. So we, like, what are we. But we can also train ourselves to scan for, you know, things that are really enriching and helpful.
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B
Yeah.
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C
So we try to, like, we try to do that. But that said, they're still at one, like five to one. Right. It's not five to nothing. And so like, if that's called denial. Right. So one is a loving relationship and another is like living in denial or. And so we try to strike that balance as best we can. We're probably not perfect.
- [21:35]
B
Okay. I have an interesting idea. Zach.
- [21:37]
D
Well, I was going to say, could.
- [21:38]
B
You give us some really honest feedback on if we're doing that? As someone that was external to Faith Matters until a few months ago, I'm curious. And who went through the painstaking, I will say, work of listening to every single Faith Matters podcast. And I apologize just for so many things. Um, but thank you for doing that. So I'd be curious, like, having recently done that, like, are we, are we sticking to the Gottman ratio or what's been, what was your sort of perspective going through that catalog work?
- [22:08]
D
Yeah, to me it was that forward looking spirit that I felt about Faith Matters that drew me so much. I also, in my 20s, went through a faith crisis, very painful and I don't know why, but I did find within myself reasons to stay. I started to think of faith more like a commitment than an internal assertion of belief. But about a year ago or more, I though I was active. I wouldn't say I was growing spiritually. I didn't feel like I was moving forward. I felt like I'd found equilibrium, I'd found a way to endure, but it wasn't growing spiritually. But I started to feel that hunger for this. And one of the things that I had found so inspiring is that I was living in Boston and there's a historian there named Laurel Thatcher Ulrich, and she and I had been hosting these monthly conversations and we called them Second Sunday. And the idea was that they could be maybe a little bit like your, your Sunday school, a space to explore any question with depth, with curiosity. And one of the things that's extraordinary.
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C
Conversation partner, you managed to look at, you might, you might tell, like how that. So you were maybe a little bit more about why you were in Boston, a tiny bit about your background because it's super interesting.
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D
Yeah, I moved to Boston in 2012. And I was really interested in using new technologies to teach people about the humanities, books and culture and philosophy and art. So I got involved at Harvard making online courses in the humanities. And the first course that I got assigned in this new job was with someone I'd never heard of, Laurel Ulrich.
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B
Oh, really? I didn't know that.
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D
And they assigned her to me because they'd heard I was Mormon and they knew she was Mormon. So like, oh, obviously you guys should fit together. And so she was in my ward and we started to get to know each other. And while we were waiting for a video shoot it in the, in the summer sun, we started thinking about having this conversation series at her house in Cambridge. So we started doing this. And one of the lessons that she would teach in her responses and in her, in her conversation was that all of us as members are responsible for the church. And she really resisted this idea that you just wait for somebody else to make the church the way you want it. And so over and over, she and I ended up developing this kind of critique of a franchise model where somebody just prints out the same thing and rather that all of us are involved in this. And Clayton Christensen was also a mentor and somebody that all of us in New England look to. And he also would talk about how, you know, primary and relief site and all these different programs, they came from the membership and they were answering God's call for us to make the restoration not a one time event, but an unfolding event. So, you know, about a year ago though, I was just feeling this stronger desire to grow spiritually and not just be static. And I met with Spencer Fluman and he says, you really need to learn about Bill Turnbull and what Faith Matters is doing. And so I started listening and I mean, right off the bat, the conversations that had been occurring with Tom Christofferson and Thomas McConkie and Terrell and Patrick Mason, it was so different than what I really encountered before. And it had a very joyful and positive forward looking spirit.
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C
You, you said in there in your comments, like Laurel said something about making the church the way you want it. And I think so what I. That could be heard, you could hear that a couple of different ways.
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B
Right.
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C
I think we have gotten into a really bad habit of looking at the church as this institution headquartered at, you know, whatever that address is of the church office building, you know, and we have begun to, I don't think Joseph Smith in his day, in the early days of the church, they didn't think of the church that way. I think they literally thought of the church as this thing that they were building together, and it was like this relationship that they enjoyed together. Right. That was the church. Now we look at it, like, as an institution with a particular message. I. I love. I think we need to get. We're at that point where we need to start looking at the church as us again.
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B
Right.
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C
Which does not mean that I get to make the church the way I want it, but it does mean I can express it in a particular way and live it in a particular way. And I. I'm not insisting, like, I don't. I'm not saying that my way is the way I don't think it is. I think Faith Matters is going to appeal to, like, it has a particular flavor to it and a spirit to it that's going to appeal to. What we do is going to appeal to a certain segment of people, and it won't appeal to some others. Right. And I'm fine with that. Like, I'm absolutely 100% fine with that. And we don't have, like, this goal of reforming the church. Some people wonder if, like, we're this progressive organization and you guys. Would you guys call me progressive? I don't know.
- [28:17]
A
No, I know you would.
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B
I know you'd get very mad at me if I called you progressive.
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C
I'm just, you know, to me. To me, progressive means those are people who know they're already there and they're just waiting for everybody to catch up to them. Right. Like, you know where this is going to go. Right. And I genuinely, like, in a lot of these questions, I genuinely don't know, but I do know we need to struggle through some of these things and figure it out, and we all need to be involved in this. I mean, if we are involved as a community in addressing some of these most difficult things, but then we will, ultimately, we will resolve it, but we have to take, like, the moral responsibility to do that. So I'm sorry, that was just like, when I heard that, I thought. I think it's really important that we change our language around what we mean by church.
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B
Yeah.
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C
The church. Okay. And. Which is not to disrespect leadership of the church, which I'm, you guys know, I have a very high regard for. And, but. But we also, We. We need to think of what is our responsibility. We. We need to start thinking of the church as the body of Christ, as a community of believers, and. And quit making the church an object outside of us.
- [29:32]
A
Yeah.
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C
It's not an object outside of us, like, we have to be this thing. We have to be the church.
- [29:38]
B
Yeah.
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A
That seems really important.
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B
Well, and when you say this, too, it seems like a good time to bring up that you've always insisted and I have adopted, I think, based on your mentorship, that the word we're looking for is expansive. And that's meant a lot to me. And to me, and it may mean something different to me than it means to everyone at this table, but to me, you know, expansive means embracing ideas that are good and true and beautiful, sort of regardless of where they come from. And sometimes they may align with traditionally conservative values or they may align with some traditionally progressive values, but I think, and I think, I hope more often they represent maybe a third way that doesn't fit into any particular ideological rut, and that through honest exploration with other people of good faith, we can unify around something that's a little bit different but that is truly resonant. That's what I sort of take to mean as expansive. And I hope faith matters is that rather than, like you said, rather than conservative or progressive, like, I would love for it to be sort of outside that ideological frames.
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C
Yeah.
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A
Something that you voice, challenge us to do in conversation is, is ask ourselves if, if the, if the conversation is opening up onto something else or if it's constricting. And that has been the most dependable litmus test for me because, you know, there's something about having the singular right answer that does feel like it closes something. Even if you are positive that you have the only right answer, it feels smaller and it feels divisive. And there is something that really resonates and, you know, gives you that soul swelling and sprouting and growing feeling when it opens up. And I think expansive is the word for that. And that's something we're always looking for for every, every difficult conversation that we have. That's like, that's the energy we're trying to find and, and the guests. And maybe we can talk about the advisory board right now for a second. But we, we are constantly searching for people who are doing that in their field. And I think that's. They have so much to do with why faith matters is what it is.
- [31:48]
C
Yeah, I'm, I, I see that in you guys. I see that the fruits of that in your lives. And I think you. We feel like teaching each other on this journey. Right. But, but if there are two more like, you embody that idea of expansiveness in this beautiful way. I mean, the fact that we met, you and that Zach has now come into our orbit. By the way, I should say this is my part of the story. If I talk to the other co founders, which my wife's not here. Well, there's the only ones here. And I'm, like, representing my brother David and Kristen, his wife. We've all been. David and Kristen and Susan and I have been on this journey for a long time.
- [32:29]
B
Right.
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C
We've been confidants and. And we've had lots of. Lots of late night conversations over the years. So this is. They're very much partners in what we're doing here, so I'll try to reflect them as well as I can, but I. Their story is slightly different than mine too, you know, so.
- [32:45]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's a good point.
- [32:47]
C
Absolutely.
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D
Aubrey, I love your point about staying open to truths that can bless your life. And there's a phrase that I often keep in mind that with the truth that we're committed to, we should be wholehearted, but half sure.
- [33:02]
A
Oh, I love that. I love that.
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D
And I don't think it has to mean, you know, you're uncertain about everything in life, but it's keeping yourself a little open to evolving or growing everything that you think you understand about the world.
- [33:16]
B
Yeah, that's beautiful. I just pulled up the Faith Matters about page, which I think this is sort of evolving. Like, this has had little tweaks to it here and there over the years, but I think it does a pretty good job expressing what we're about. Maybe at least we could read a few segments here. But the very first thing you'll see in bold is Faith Matters foundation aims to create a space in which an expansive, radiant approach to the restored gospel can be considered and discussed. I think that is what I feel like this is all about, you know, and we haven't even talked about that phrase, creating a space. But I will say, like, some of the most meaningful feedback that I feel like we've gotten in, you know, in podcast reviews or in, you know, personal messages or whatever. And by the way, just shout out, thank you, everyone that has ever written a review on the podcast or left a rating. I know that's like our call out every single time we finish a podcast, but it really does. I mean, a. From a practical perspective, it definitely helps just more people know about it and know what we're about, but also it keeps us going, like, in a lot of ways. So thank you.
- [34:24]
C
You're really, really super rewarding to read those. I mean, like, maybe we'll get to that, but the effect really, like, there's. The effect that we're having is what's really important. Right. So ultimately, what effect is this having on the community of believers, on the world? So maybe we'll come back to that. But.
- [34:43]
B
Yeah, and just what I was going to say is that it is really meaningful to me. And I've. I've read several that have said that they have felt like we've helped create a space. You know, there are, for whatever reason, and we've felt this way, too. But like people at various times in their life, it's very easy to feel marginalized or squeezed culturally or whatever and feel like there's not space. And to the extent Faith Matters can help with that, that's something that is really meaningful to me. The other part of this page, that man, is really awesome, is this BH Roberts quote. Do you think we should.
- [35:17]
C
Yeah, let's read that.
- [35:18]
B
I love it.
- [35:19]
C
Yeah. This has been part of our mission.
- [35:22]
B
Statement from day one, and every time we read it, it's just like, that's it right there. Okay. So he said, I believe Mormonism, and that's in quotes, affords opportunity for thoughtful disciples who will not be content with merely repeating some of its truths, but will develop its truths. The prophet planted the germ truths of the great dispensation of the fullness of times. The disciples of Mormonism, growing discontented with the necessarily primitive methods which have hitherto prevailed in sustaining the doctrine, will yet take profounder and broader views of the great doctrines committed to the church and departing from mere repetition, will cast them in new formulas until they help to give to the truths received a more forceful expression and carry it beyond to the earlier and crude, cruder stages of its development.
- [36:07]
C
Yeah, I love that. And so what we really did, I think, at Faith Matters, in, In. In starting Faith Matters, we went out, We. We were aware. We'd become aware of these voices that were doing exactly that. Right. And so we thought, why don't we. Can we bring them together, like almost collaboratively and create something together? Right. So we. We created an advisory board, which. It's like, it's a remarkable group of people. I mean, maybe you want to.
- [36:37]
A
I don't know, let's run through them really quick.
- [36:39]
B
Yeah. Tom Kristofferson, Fiona Givens, Steve Young, Darius Gray, Melissa Inouy, Terrell Givens, Patrick Mason, Phil Barlow, Thomas McConkey, Jody Moore, Mali Bonner, MacArthur Krishna. Thomas Griffith, Jacob Hess, Charles Randall, Paul Jay Griffith, Rosalind Welch.
- [37:02]
C
Yeah. And we since added, like, Bethany Spalding, just A remarkable group of people who are doing that exact kind of work. And so we said, let's. Let's bring these together and see what we can create together. And so, you know, thank you to them for. Because we're in. We just finished a retreat with them and it was amazing. Like, we.
- [37:23]
B
You get all those people in a room together and good stuff happens.
- [37:25]
C
Yeah, it's a lot of fun. And, yeah, you get to see another side of them, you know, that you may not have seen before. Terrell was interesting. So the very first person that we talked to was Phil Barlow. And Phil, for those of you don't know Phil and his work, he's a very quiet, amazingly wise and good soul. And he published some things that were really, really helpful to me when I was, like, in your situation. And he was at Harvard, too, when he. When he was publishing most of that stuff. But he now, he. He became the head of. The Head of Mormon Studies at Utah State and is now at the Maxwell Institute at byu. But love. Love Phil, but.
- [38:09]
D
So, yeah, when I was a student at Harvard Divinity School, I was there for three years.
- [38:13]
C
Okay.
- [38:14]
D
And on the stairwell to go up to my classes, almost every time, there's a picture of Phil Barlow.
- [38:21]
B
Oh, really?
- [38:22]
C
Really.
- [38:22]
D
When he was about 25, 26, standing kind of in a snow with a coat on. And I would pass by Phil like, ah, that's the Latter Day Saint that preceded me.
- [38:31]
B
That's amazing.
- [38:33]
C
Yeah. Yeah. I love Phil. Terrell Givens. Terrell and Fiona become really good friends. We spend a lot of time together. And Terry has a particular. Like, you might get a particular impression of Terrell, you know, from this public appearance or his riding, but he's really funny and he's like, a lot of fun and the best storyteller I've ever been around. Someday just get a couple of Diet Cokes in him and wind him up and have him tell stories. Yeah. So, yeah, I think the community of people we've put together around this has been remarkable and really, really helpful. I mean, that's a great group of people.
- [39:14]
A
And they disagree.
- [39:15]
C
Oh, yeah.
- [39:16]
A
That was the thing that was so interesting to me. Like, you get them all in the room and everybody has a wildly different opinion us. And that's okay. Like, they. I feel like I've learned so much from seeing them really hash something out together and be really open to changing their minds. And that's why I love just like, coming back to this idea that the church is community, that we are the church. Because when you think of the Church as a singular person or a singular hierarchy, then the question about whether you are already in a toxic relationship is a really big deal. Like, that might be the only question that you have the bandwidth to.
- [39:50]
B
To.
- [39:50]
A
To deal with. And if, if the church is community, then you have all of these other hard questions that you get to wrestle with and that are going to stretch and grow you. And, And I feel like being with these people and asking them our hardest questions has really helped us to learn how to do that, learn how to. Instead of handing our agency over to someone who's in charge, we. When you think of the church as your community, you're. You're. You really have to wrestle with every single hard question in a way that feels like it must be the purpose of life. Because what could be more important than the way that hurts and the way that you have to stretch and reach and trust? It's a totally different and very complex kind of faith.
- [40:36]
C
I think that we're going to see the gifts that, the unique gifts that the church offers. The world that our church offers the world may not be as important as. As apparent now as I think they will be. And one of the things that, that one of our gifts is exactly what you just pointed out, like the ability to coexist and find brotherhood and transcend the kinds of differences that are fracturing our country right now. Like, it's, it's like a discipline, right? We're, We're. We show up every week and like, or, or even more often to do just this kind of work with people that we, that we're around. And it's really. It may not have been so obvious why that's important, but it's becoming more obvious now, isn't it?
- [41:22]
B
Absolutely.
- [41:23]
D
Yeah.
- [41:24]
C
And I really appreciate that the church has given me that, like, discipline and exercise. When we moved to Midway, when Susan and I moved to Midway, I may have shared this story with you, but in one of the very first high priest group back then, but like, you know, Elders Quorum, we'd call it Elders Quorum now. I sat down with this new group of members and I was just like, kind of feeling out the room and seeing like, like, who's in here? And there's one fellow that, that made a comment. And like, I, I heard his comment and immediately thought, okay, well, he and I are probably not ever going to be like, great friends. Like, his worldview is different than mine. And, and, and then this is what the church does, right? So at the end it's like, oh, yeah, by the way, we have four cannery assignments to fulfill this week. And. And of course, this guy's hand shot up. It was his first hand. And I'm like, okay, well, then I'm in too.
- [42:20]
B
Right?
- [42:21]
C
So that meant that we. And I knew as soon as I raised my hand, that means we ride down together down to the valley, and then we work together and let's see what happens. So, you know, I found. So, like, this is such a dear person. And he and I will never agree probably on politics and certain things, but we're like forever friends. I love this guy. And we need to. And that's like, taught me to. It's almost like when somebody has a certain flag up, you know, Instead of, like, letting me feel like that comes between me and them, I want to actually go talk to that person. And I want to, like. Because my experience is, like, when you can actually have a conversation, you can transcend these differences, the ones that we've created these differences, and they're dividing us more and more. I mean, it's one way of many ways that I think that the church is going to really bless. What we're doing is really going to bless the world.
- [43:19]
B
Yeah.
- [43:20]
C
So I think that's what we try to do, like, even in our advisory board, like, lots of different philosophies and opinions come together, and it's just like. It's fascinating. I love it.
- [43:29]
A
And I think some of the most meaningful episodes have been when we've been talking about topics that are me. May easily be really divisive. They're the ones that feel like we're tiptoeing and they're really hard to talk about. I think those end up being the most meaningful even if we're wrong. Like, even if we miss the mark. I think it's so. It feels so good to. And so hard to just get in the mess of the conversation and say something, you know, without having. Without coming down on a. On a. With a. With an opinion that you're gonna defend till you die. You know, it's hard. It's hard to have a conversation when you haven't formed an opinion yet. And you're trying to understand like, that that's. That's hard to do out loud because you're gonna. You're gonna do it wrong. And I. And we have so many advisors and. And guests who've been willing to do that to. To come on and say the thing they're thinking about but aren't sure about and be willing to just talk about it and think about it. More and. And open and open up instead of really, you know, dig in and defend the thing that they have decided.
- [44:32]
C
Yeah.
- [44:33]
D
I think that's one reason why we've had such a positive response, especially with you two as hosts. I think we have a lot of people who listen to every episode, even if they're not interested in that episode's topic, but because they feel a spirit of love and curiosity and honest exploration that feels very, very. Not only safe, but empowering of each person to explore truth for themselves.
- [45:04]
A
That's so kind. I hope that when, you know, we left off talking about how faith matters, is trying to create this space like that. That, to me is the space that I was so hungry for. It was that. That was like the special, the Sunday school class that's much smaller, where you can. Where it's really okay to open up and ask a question that's really on your mind.
- [45:25]
D
Yeah.
- [45:25]
A
You know.
- [45:26]
B
Sorry.
- [45:27]
A
That's it. Like that. That. That's what I hope we are.
- [45:29]
B
I think there comes a time in most people's lives at some point where they're tired of hearing answers, you know, and just like having. Having whatever it is handed to them on a silver platter. And exploration. Yeah.
- [45:42]
C
I don't think that's why we're here.
- [45:43]
B
Yeah. Exploration becomes much more interesting.
- [45:45]
D
Yeah.
- [45:45]
B
And I hope people get that sense from us, too, that we're not coming into this space thinking that we have the answers and we're going to show people that consume the content or we're going to show the church or anybody the way to do it. It is an exploration. It does come from a true place of curiosity.
- [46:04]
C
And I love that we're engaging people outside of our tradition, too. One of our founding principles is that this is. Back when we wrote this, this was okay to say this. Mormonism is not about Mormonism. Right. It's. That's not what. But we can really make it. That we can spend all of our time thinking about who we are and dissecting it. And, like, it was never about that. It's always been about transformation. And if it's not, like, right now, if. If the four of us didn't feel like we were being transformed by our experience in this, like, with Faith Matters and with the faith itself, would we still be doing it? Like, I feel like it's. And the thing about our faith is it's not just about personal transformation. It's about, like, this communal transformation, the really hard thing.
- [46:53]
D
Right.
- [46:54]
C
And, yeah, I think that we really can reach out. We're At a point in the history of the world now where we can reach out and learn things. Not just like. Not just engage things, but actually learn from other traditions and other people is like this really rich thing. This is part of our needs to be part of our DNA. But if we're always focused in on Mormonism, as Mormonism, we'll never get that. And so I think this is what you guys do beautifully. I love that. I love the way you do it. I love that. And it's an earnest enterprise, right? So we're more and more, we are engaging people from outside our faith. Zach being in Boston, that, like, opens up a whole new world is really fun. And. And we've already had some great results from that. It's going to be fun to see. Zach's going to stay in Boston. We need an east coast presence. I think the other thing about Faith Matters is, like, really important. It's not just. There are a lot. There are different ways of knowing things, and somehow we privilege. You notice, we privilege, like, smart people. We privilege rational discourse over. But our faith has never done that. Right?
- [48:02]
B
Yeah.
- [48:02]
C
There's, like, there's this balance between intellectual kind of rational engagement and intuitive spiritual engagement that, like, I think we're trying to strike at Faith Matters, too. It's really. We started this. One of the very. One of our very earliest engagements was with Thomas McConkey. And Thomas became my teacher. He taught me meditation. And he has a great deal to say about, you know, how we develop as human beings and even institutions. But that. That component of learning how to contemplate, how to. How to meditate, like, became really nourishing for me. Really, really helpful. And so one of the things that. One of the many things that we're trying to do is, like, we need to give space for a contemplative tradition to emerge in our faith.
- [48:54]
B
Right.
- [48:54]
C
And so we've tried to do that. Like, that's been one of the things that we do. I don't know. Is anybody else doing that? Like, that is one of the things we do.
- [49:01]
A
And.
- [49:01]
C
And I think the world needs that. Like, right now, we. We need that as a people. If there was ever a time when we needed to get out of our heads. So we need to be careful, like, as a Faith Matters team, not to get. Not to be in our heads too much. Isn't that, like, that was this always been my problem? That's always been my issue.
- [49:21]
D
I don't know.
- [49:21]
C
How about you? I know you guys, but, like, that's it. Yeah. And we have like this really rich embodied theology and why are we getting lost in our heads and everyone is like, this is the scourge of our, of our generation.
- [49:35]
B
Well, and like, with, like, I think like with anything else, it's not a matter of leaving your head behind either. It's the, it's the non dualistic approach. Because I think the danger in any organization if you leave your head behind totally is, you know, the end result of that is probably a cult.
- [49:50]
C
Yeah, yeah.
- [49:51]
B
Like you need, you need to bring. I mean, and I think Thomas would say it's, it's mind and heart and body. Of course, you know, I don't. And I, I'm not necessarily the best to even describe what the difference between heart and body are, you know, but I know that there, I have felt deeply in this work that there is something far beyond the rational, the rational mind. That's a very important way of knowing. But at the same time, we, we don't try to leave the mind behind.
- [50:14]
C
Yeah, but how many times have you accused yourself of, gosh, I'm too lost in my heart right now.
- [50:18]
B
Right.
- [50:20]
C
Very seldom happens.
- [50:24]
A
I think something that really emerged early on in this crisis of faith was just this, like, the idea of faith development became really important because I just didn't even have language for the experience. And I think there's a stage where you kind of. The pendulum swings so far, and the only thing that you will count is, is what comes from your mind. You get, you. You start only believing experiences that you can, you can prove. And, and there's this. I think over time you sort of start reintegrating that part of yourself. And, and I think there's a stage where you really do kind of have to dig in and you deal with the messy facts and you, you kind of lose that part of yourself for a little bit. But. But then there's this really beautiful reintegration, and I hope that's what we, what we're. What we're modeling, that, that it. All of those, all of those pieces are part of you, and all of those pieces bring you to God. But I think it's. I think it's developmental. Like there are definitely stages where it just. Some of those things seemed valueless and I couldn't see it any other way, but you grow through that. And I feel like these, these guests have really helped show me how to do that.
- [51:33]
D
Yeah, I found that really helpful too. Aubrey, you hear it often with people going through a faith crisis, and I think I felt the same thing too, that you wish you could go back to believing the way you used to go back to that sense of certainty.
- [51:54]
A
Yeah.
- [51:55]
D
But I think faith matters. A lot of faith matters conversations have shown me and made it more clear, just like with you, that you want to go forward. You want to go forward to growth, forward to more love, more joy, more understanding, more life. And I. So I think that that framework has been really helpful, and I. I see that as part of our role is providing resources for people who understand that faith is a journey. It is not an either or thing.
- [52:33]
C
Tell me what you think of this. I also think that we're sort of. We're reaching the end of a secular age where secularism meant. It was like. It was the standard by which you.
- [52:46]
D
The new atheists are no longer new.
- [52:48]
C
Isn't it funny? I was thinking of the new atheists, like, a couple of them are dead. Well, you got. You got like. But you've got. So, yeah, you got Hitchens. Is. Is Dennis still around? He's still around, yeah. Okay, so. So nobody's listening to Dawkins anymore. He's like, you know, like, he's just.
- [53:06]
D
Complaining on Twitter, right?
- [53:08]
C
Yeah, that's like the rest of us, like. And then you got. They get. Sam Harris has now become a spiritual guru, right? He's founded a whole, like. What is it called? I'm actually a subscriber, so I should.
- [53:19]
D
Waking up.
- [53:19]
C
Yeah, waking up. The whole waking up thing. And so he's like. He's finding spirituality and, like, basically admitting the secular. Like, the secular enterprise ends up in death. It ends up in this flat world. And we, like, we actually need an enchanted world. Like, even. Even science tells us the world is much stranger fundamentally than we can imagine that it is. Like, we think that this. This interface that we enjoy of space, time, you know, the way that our brains perceive the world, we think that's reality. And, like, scientists already know that's not reality. We're only seeing a small section of it. So we. Why can't we imagine that things are much stranger than we. Why can't we realize that much things are stranger than we imagine? That's why I was so fascinated. When you're interviewing Noah Feldman, you and Terrell, and there's like, if there's anyone, like, he's the most brilliant of the brilliant, right? Even Harvard. He's like, you know, he's. He's a step above, and he's kind of come to that same place in his life. You can feel that. Right. And he's. He was raised a modern orthodox Jew. And he's like. And he's. And as we're exploring, like, what does our faith. He's very familiar with Mormonism. What does our faith offer? And he's like, well, like an enchanted worldview, for one thing. You know, there are more people that believe in angels now in the world than ever before. So secularity has already turned the corner. Right. We, we. I love that about our faith. I love that that we believe actually things that are hard to believe. Right. And, and, and they've produced these fruits. And you're like, okay, there's. So I'm, I'm just, I'm fascinated by that. And I love that, that we're trying to strike that balance. Yeah, yeah.
- [55:05]
B
Should we move into sort of, from a very practical perspective, where faith matters is going from here? You know, people, if they're listening to this, obviously you know about the podcast. We published four books, which is exciting. More and more to come. A couple that I'm. I think all of us are very excited about. We published a course, long awaited, the.
- [55:24]
C
Long awaited Thomas McConaughey book, which is fantastic. And then Jennifer Finlays and Fife's writing one as we speak. And yes, on a super interesting subject. So, yeah, totally.
- [55:33]
B
We've published one course as well. Transformations of Faith with more. With also with more to come.
- [55:38]
D
Yeah, literally more to come.
- [55:41]
B
Yeah.
- [55:41]
C
Which. Which, by the way, like, I happen to think is like one of the greatest things we've done.
- [55:47]
B
Transformations.
- [55:47]
C
Transformations. That course is remarkable. But a lot of time I've, I've, I've spent, like silent retreats using that material. It's transformational. I love, I love what we've done there. Yeah.
- [55:58]
B
Proud of that.
- [55:59]
D
Well, for me, reading Patrick Mason's Restoration book was one of the big pieces that this is a remarkable organization. This book is so short and so powerful.
- [56:10]
C
Yeah, totally. Terry Fiona's book, All Things New, basically, you know, examining our vocabulary and say what we need to enrich. That's what B.H. roberts is saying here. Let's take these ideas and develop them. And that's what they did in that book is our publishing efforts. It's kind of funny. People just assume that if we publish it, it must be our view.
- [56:31]
D
Right.
- [56:32]
C
Which is not necessarily the case. I think the ideas, the core ideas behind the books that we published are really important to throw into the discussion are super important. The latest book, Katherine Sontag's book, for example, she's. And you know, she lays out this in this very beautiful, almost poetic way, like this very provocative idea about our Divine Mother and how we can experience that in our lives. But they're also, they're also meant to be disruptive like these books are. They're not meant to make us comfortable like a religion. I love the who, who, as I said, like religion exists to comfort the afflicted and to afflict the comfortable. And we, like, I think there will always be something in we do that challenges us. Right. So we don't expect everybody to agree with, you know, with what's written these books, but we feel like they're really important topics to throw into the, into the universe. So I'm really proud of everything we've done on that front. Yeah. And they've done well. They've been so well received. Exciting.
- [57:37]
D
This, this raises a point that we spoke about earlier, but there's a danger in being a centrist organization, which is that you don't ever make your own choices. You just calibrate yourself between the poles.
- [57:52]
A
Right.
- [57:53]
D
And some people have asked me, oh, you guys are pretty centrist. And I said, well, it depends. And I think on some topics there's been an admirable boldness and audacity that I've seen. There's been an admirable boldness in the willingness to press forward on some topics. So I think with Heavenly Mother, Faith Matters has been so, you know, supportive of making sure that we all do develop a mother tongue. And I think that shows that we are not just trying to be comfortable and safe. We're, we're going forward in the ways that we think are important.
- [58:30]
C
Yeah. Occasionally we get feedback that, like, a particular guest is, like, why did you have them on your show? Like, like, like there's some orthodoxy test that a guest needs to meet to like, to, to be, to come into conversation with us. We don't have those if they have an important perspective, like we're going to engage that topic.
- [58:50]
A
One interesting thing too is that on the most potentially divisive conversations, we almost always get criticized for the same thing from opposite sides, which is interesting because that's very uncomfortable for me, but it's in some ways kind of reassuring. We're in the middle of something that's really hard. And so there are people who will feel up in arms for the same reason that someone on the other side of the aisle will feel up in arms. And usually it happens in the same conversations. And so I, I, I know that's the, that's what we're accepting is going to happen when we, when we get in the middle of these things. But I, I, like, I think it's important to challenge ourselves to be. To being open to someone sitting across the table from you and saying something that you really disagree with and trying to figure out why. Because over and over and over again, we've left feeling like we understand each other in a way that I can completely respect. Like, even if there's still, like, real disagreement, I feel like I totally respect where they're coming from. And I think it's helpful to have this imaginary audience watching a conversation because you, you listen to yourself and you think about, you know, how you're responding and if you're actually listening or are you talking over the person, and that's a temptation. So it's helpful to have this, to know that, you know, someone is going to hear how you're actually listening and digesting and, and like, conversing with someone that is saying something challenging. But, but it's, it's been such a beautiful practice to realize that, like, almost every time you leave with just so much respect and, and with, with this realization that you, you really have the same values, like, they're showing up differently, but, like, you are rooted in the same values and you can. There's nothing, you don't need any qualifiers about respecting that.
- [60:40]
C
Yeah. And you have, you two have a gift for having those kinds of conversations. And I, like, Can I just say, like, I'm so thrilled that you. That the three of you are very much a part of everything we do. Actually, you do almost all of it. And I don't know about that. Yeah, we have a good, we have a really good team. But I just figure, like, if we can't, if, if our religion can't continue to engage people like you, who I consider the best and the brightest, and I mean best in ways, like, you're just deeply good people and brightest, not only intellectually, but, like, the spirit that comes from you. Like, if we can't, like, keep people like you engaged, then we, you know, we, we have a problem.
- [61:30]
D
So.
- [61:31]
C
But yeah, it's just, I mean, just associating with you and getting to, like, we, we send each other lots of texts and why do we have lots of conversations? It's just, it's just really fun. And we want to create that. We want to create that community, like, on a large scale because it feels great, which is like, one of the reasons why it's going to be nice to be able to gather one of the things we've always wanted to do. In fact, the very first thing that we, the faith Matters did. Is at Utah State University. We did this conference. We sponsored this conference on translation. Right. It was like this word of translation, which we think we've always thought meant this. It actually could mean this. And hundreds of people showed up, like 5, 600 people.
- [62:13]
B
And.
- [62:13]
C
And we had, like, yeah, we had Richard Bushman and we had Terrell Givens and Patrick and. And Rosalind Welch and. Can't remember, like, we had this. Like, this great. This great group of people to come together around that and if so, gathering. Like, it felt good to be able to talk in that. To talk that way. So. And then that. That got disrupted with COVID and we weren't able to execute on that portion of what we wanted to do. So we're excited to start doing that.
- [62:47]
D
Yeah.
- [62:47]
B
Zach, do you want to fill in some details maybe on the most exciting gathering that we have coming up?
- [62:54]
A
I think.
- [62:55]
D
Should we go there? You should talk about Restore, Bill.
- [62:58]
C
I should have a nice. I think I've spoken plenty. Yeah, this is. Yeah, we. We're going to have. We're gonna have an event on October 7th and 8th, and we hope everybody can come and bring their friends, family, everyone, because this is going to be, like, a community experience. We're going to be asking, like, some of the most interesting questions and bringing some of the best minds together to discuss those questions. Some of them will be challenging. A lot of it will just be inspiring. We're gonna have a lot of music. And by the way, it's not like, don't envision a panel discussion and a bunch of scholars discussing. It will be much more conversational. And you'll get to meet some of the. I think, some of the greatest minds and souls that our community has and then just meet other people that are super interesting. So we've been wanting to do this for a long time, and we're going to have it in Salt Lake City on October 7th and 8th. Do you want to talk about some of the people who are going to be involved?
- [64:07]
D
Yeah. I mean, incredibly exciting. Some of the. I think Everybody's favorites. Thomas McConkey is gonna speak to us and lead us in a guided meditation.
- [64:16]
A
Brian McLaren.
- [64:18]
C
Brian McLaren.
- [64:19]
A
Yeah.
- [64:19]
C
Yes.
- [64:19]
B
He's coming in.
- [64:20]
D
Terrell and Fiona Patrick. All the.
- [64:25]
A
I mean, most of our favorites. Not all. Not everybody, but just about all the favorites.
- [64:29]
D
And Carolyn Pearson, too.
- [64:31]
B
Yeah. Mali Bonner.
- [64:33]
C
Molly's going to be a big part of it. And he's bringing his. His whole family to sing. The Bonner family.
- [64:40]
B
The Unity Gospel Choir.
- [64:42]
C
Unity Gospel Choir, yeah. Yeah. So we're gonna have some like this. This is going to be your break from Protestant. Sit on your hands him hymns. We get plenty of that every week. So we're gonna, like, mix it up a little bit.
- [64:55]
D
Yeah. And I would just say we. We love our listeners. You are what sustain us. And the chance to be in the same building with you is incredibly exciting for us.
- [65:06]
B
Yeah.
- [65:07]
A
I think maybe one of the things that Tim and I at least hear more than anything else is people will reach out often and just say they feel really isolated in their ward or whatever their community looks like. They feel like they're the only one asking these questions. And I don't think that's true, but I know that it feels. I know how that feels. And I mean, we feel that way. I love hearing from listeners because it's. It's really rejuvenating to feel connected with someone who's resonating with your same questions. And so I. I hope that gathering will actually really just be. It just bring. I think it brings a lot of peace to just literally be sitting in the same room with people who are thinking about and talking about the things that feel most important to you. So I. I'm excited for that.
- [65:49]
B
Yeah.
- [65:50]
A
For that part. Like, it. It gives you such a sense of belonging to just be with someone.
- [65:55]
C
Yeah.
- [65:56]
D
So you can learn more and register by going to faith matters website faithmatters.org restore I think I also really like to share one more initiative. It's exciting, and that is that Faith Matters is going to be launching a publication where we can have writing and art from writers that can inspire and nourish. It's going to be called Radiant, and we're also going to launch it at Restore at the conference in October. But you can go ahead and sign up and learn a little bit more@radiantmagazine.org Awesome.
- [66:35]
C
I think I've been just very encouraged by the response that we've been getting from people. And we get a lot of responses, and I don't think we've yet to get one that says, thanks to you, I'm disengaging with my relationship with Christ and the gospel and the church. You know, what we get is, like, almost entirely the opposite and lots of messages. I don't know if, like, maybe we actually compiled a bunch of them. And I was reading through. I'm like, man, this is really having a powerful and positive effect. And if it's not, we're like, we're not hearing about it, so maybe. But it's like, super rewarding. I feel like if we weren't getting that kind of response from people and then, yeah, then I would rather be playing more golf. Cause I don't golf a lot.
- [67:29]
A
And something in this last interview that we had with Thomas McConkey, he said a lot of people, and we hear this a lot too, they come to him with this idea that, you know, you were born into this, into this tradition, and so you have a responsibility to get out there and see what else you're missing. Anybody who just showed, you know, who, who, who didn't choose Mormonism, you got to go figure out what you're missing. And he, he said, you know, what if we entertained the opposite truth? Like, what if you have a responsibility to this tradition because you were born into it, because you're the power of, of, of your own ancestry is, is flowing through you and it, it is your native tongue. And so if you're not going to help it become its best self and help this restoration forward, then who else will? And that felt to me like a religious experience when he said that. I really feel that, like we're here because it is our mother tongue and like that that's, it's okay for that to be the reason all by itself. Sometimes, like, this is just where I was planted.
- [68:27]
C
And we're not the only project God has going on in the world. Like, God is doing amazing things elsewhere. Did you see the Webb Telescope the other day? Sending back images, like, unbelievable, like we're seeing 13 billion years, like these amazing pictures of 13 billion years back in time. And like that whole project, that's God's project too, right? Like we have like our spec, like a project that I think is super important. But it's not God's only project we really need to partner. When we talk about like searched fixed foot and searching foot, like, let's expand that not only in what we can learn from other people, but how we can partner with people. We have big problems in the world and it sometimes can be a little despairing and we can't even come close to doing any of it ourselves. So. Yeah, but I, I, I just, I love the way you, you express that for sure.
- [69:22]
A
And I, I think that part of that responsibility looks like talking about our own little problems too. Because when you feel defensive, you can't, you can't even look outside. Like you're too defensive to take any good from outside of your own community because you're, you're, you feel like you, what you have might be taken away. And so I think once You, Once you acclimate to the idea that, like, you can have your own problems and there are beautiful things here, it doesn't, it doesn't have to always be either or. Because that's, I think, what it feels like in the beginning that, like, you might have to give it all away if this isn't as perfect as you thought it was. Once you get used to this idea that, like, there's ugly stuff and there are good fruits and we can pick out what's beautiful and makes, and make something more beautiful out of that, then, then it just, you lower the drawbridge, like Patrick says, and you start letting in all the beautiful things from outside of your tradition, it's okay to, like, widen that searching foot.
- [70:11]
B
And sometimes acknowledging the problems that you're experiencing in your own, in your own community can actually unite you in a weird way with others. Because, like with Brian McLaren, for example, when he came on and shared his experience about what's sort of what life is like these days in evangelical Christianity, it's like, man, like, these are human, these are human issues.
- [70:29]
C
Absolutely.
- [70:30]
B
You know, and we have our own expressions of them within each, within each tradition. But like, everyone that's at least within, within the specific topic, you know, everyone that's living a life of faith to some extent, is experiencing the same things we're experiencing in, in the Latter Day Saint tradition.
- [70:48]
C
Yeah. And, and I, I, I see, like, I see God's fingerprints and. Human fingerprints. Yes, about an equal proportion, sometimes a little more of the, you know, one than the other shot through everything that, that, that, that we've, you know, everything about our religion and everything about our tradition, it's that, that's the way it's supposed to be. I actually embrace that. Like, we've made big mistakes, you know, and we'll probably make more, but we're doing something like we're builders, you know, we take risks and we have faith and we, yeah, we, we kind of think about these things that seem unreasonable. We believe these things that are unreasonable and act in, in the world and try to, you know, like, I, I love that about, about faith in general.
- [71:37]
D
We build temples on swamps.
- [71:39]
B
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, go ahead, Bill.
- [71:45]
C
I mean, I like being builders. Like, I love, I love building something. Hopefully we're building something here that's really useful and.
- [71:54]
D
Oh, go ahead.
- [71:55]
C
I mean, sitting back and, and, you know, being critics, that's like the easy way out, you know, and so.
- [72:00]
A
Yeah, yeah, that's exactly.
- [72:03]
D
I really liked what you were saying, Aubry, about becoming whole enough to Then be open. And what draws me so much to our mission and our work is, is the calling to help heal people, that Jesus heals people. And we need to help extend Jesus's love and healing power. And I, I think it's important that through the work that we do, we help heal people in their relationship with, with God and with the church, and then they can be agents of healing.
- [72:36]
A
And I, I love that because I. There was a review recently that meant something so much to me and it said it was very kind, but there was one part that said there's no stone throwing here. And that means a lot because I think healing, part of healing is diagnosing a problem. You have to be honest about an infection, you have to be honest about what's going on. But it's so much easier to just point out all of the problems and move on. And I hope that what we're doing goes beyond that.
- [73:05]
C
Can I just read that? Because you actually texted it to me. This little review says.
- [73:09]
A
Really like this review.
- [73:09]
C
Yeah, it's a great one. Well, it's the most recent one, I think, so it just happens to be. But he says, you know, yeah, Faith Matters is the standard that sets the standard. So that's a little overstatement. No other podcast does more to engage questions surrounding the LDS faith with nuance, rigor, compassion, and love. The hosts have jumped into virtually every difficult and controversial issue. And critically, they refuse to accept easy answers when such answers do not present themselves on somebody. They do it all with grace, humor, and kindness. They allow just as much space for church leaders as they do for other guests. No stone throwing here. This is instead the very best of us. Wrestling hard ideas and accepting when they are hard. That's a pretty good.
- [73:54]
B
Wow.
- [73:55]
C
Yeah, that's pretty good.
- [73:56]
B
That's cool.
- [73:57]
A
I appreciated that.
- [73:57]
B
And again, just like everyone that's written those kind things to us. Thank you so much. We read every single one.
- [74:05]
A
This is a passion project. Not a, not a, not a paid gig.
- [74:10]
B
Yes. This has been all, all volunteer effort from everybody on the board. Zach, excitingly, is our very first full time hire. And so, I mean, not only that.
- [74:21]
C
But everyone sitting at this table is given substantial resources of this effort. So not only time, but like many. So, yeah, so just like, thank you, Tim and Aubrey for doing what you're doing and becoming like, so good at it. And Zach, our first, like, it's time to professionalize this organization.
- [74:42]
D
Hard to imagine it being any more than it already is.
- [74:45]
B
No, we're so excited to have Zach the background that he brings, both philosophically but also the expertise that you have in media. It just was a perfect fit. And when you first came to our board meeting and just sat down with us, I think there was an immediate sort of unanimity, like, we need to get Zach involved. And we're. We couldn't be more excited to have.
- [75:05]
C
You and happened at exactly the right time and. Which seems to happen. Right.
- [75:10]
B
So, yeah.
- [75:12]
C
Welcome. Welcome aboard, man.
- [75:14]
D
So happy, so, so joyful to be a part of this wonderful mission.
- [75:18]
B
Yeah. And maybe I'll just say to close. When I was in business school, Mitt Romney came to. Came to one of my classes and I was, like, really struggling, trying to. Trying to figure out what my career was going to look like. It was getting close to graduation, and I actually got the chance to ask him, like, what do you. What do you think? And he said he's always guided his career on two things. Make sure you. And number one was make sure you're working on something interesting and do it with. And number two was do it with people you like. And I definitely think we're meeting those two. So I just want to say love you guys, Aubrey, love you the most. Love you guys, too. It's been a lot of fun.
- [75:56]
C
Yeah, it's a lot of fun. I mean, it's going to be fun to see what comes out of this.
- [76:03]
A
All right, thanks so much to each of you for tuning into this conversation. We hope that it was helpful. And as always, we want to thank you for your support of Faith Matters. Registration for the RESTORE conference is now open, like we mentioned in the episode, so head to faithmatters.org restore to purchase tickets and please feel free to share it with your friends and family. We think that this gathering will be really special, and we would love to have as many people participating pay as possible. Thanks as always for listening and remember that you can check out more at faithmatters. Org.