Faith Matters Podcast, Episode 13
A New Story of Creation – A Conversation with Scholars George Handley and Jani Radebaugh
Date: March 3, 2019

Episode Overview

This episode brings together planetary scientist Jani Radebaugh and environmental humanities professor George Handley to explore the intersection of scientific discovery, faith, and environmental stewardship from a Latter-day Saint perspective. The discussion responds to Carl Sagan’s challenge for religions to embrace the awe-inspiring scope of the universe revealed by modern science and delves into how our expanding understanding of creation can enrich spiritual life, deepen our sense of responsibility to the Earth, and prompt us to create “a new story” of our relationship with the world.

Key Discussion Points and Insights

1. The Cosmic Context and Science as Revelation (08:53–14:44)

• Carl Sagan’s Challenge

  • The episode begins with Carl Sagan’s quote questioning why religions focus on a “little God” instead of embracing the grandeur of the universe revealed by science, suggesting that a faith which celebrates this magnificence might tap into “reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by conventional faiths.” (08:07–08:53)
  • Jani: “I really love this quote. I think there’s so much to it... Something that is really special about being a scientist is that you get to see a lot of these things unfold in front of you...” (08:53)

• Mind-Blowing Scale of the Universe

  • Jani gives a thrilling tour of recent cosmic discoveries, including possible giant planets on the fringes of our solar system, the vast distances to other stars (e.g., Proxima Centauri), and the staggering number of galaxies and stars in the observable universe.
  • Jani explains the universe’s age (14 billion years) and the challenges this poses for some religious narratives. She concludes: “We can’t really comprehend the vastness… now we’re worried about a constraint on them. So it’s a very interesting kind of conundrum.” (13:00)

2. The Value of Cosmic Disorientation and Scriptural Parallels (14:44–20:33)

• Humility and Awe

  • George: Finds value in the “disorientation” caused by contemplating the universe’s scale. References Moses’ and Job’s scriptural encounters with the grandeur of creation, emphasizing their humbling and spiritually edifying effects.
    • “In the scriptures, we have…accounts of cosmological encounters that are intended to be spiritually edifying…Moses collapses and says, ‘now I know that man is nothing, which thing I never had supposed.’” (14:44–17:06)
  • Discusses William Brown’s idea that humans are not simply “knowers” (Homo sapiens), but “wonderers” (Homo admirans): “What makes us uniquely human is our capacity for awe and wonder.” (17:23)

• Wonder as Spiritual Practice

  • George and Jani celebrate the ability to experience awe as a core of spiritual growth. For George, the desire to seek out experiences and places that compel awe and humility is central: “I’m more aware of what I’m doing on this planet, what it means to be in a body, what a gift it is to be alive.” (19:12)

3. Challenging and Expanding Faith Narratives (20:33–28:30)

• Personal Faith Journeys

  • Bill shares a moment of cognitive dissonance as a returned missionary learning about dinosaur fossils and Earth’s antiquity, realizing, “My God’s too small. I’ve got to make room in my world for things like dinosaurs and very old Earth.” (22:46)
  • Discuss how our stories about God and the world must expand as our knowledge grows.

• Scripture and Science: Complementary Stories

  • Jani: “A lot of that is happening for us because we’re learning so much about the world in general…the truths of the physical world…there are places that have never seen a human before, but they exist.” (23:41)
  • George invokes William Brown’s “Seven Pillars of Creation,” highlighting that scripture need not conflict with science if we read with curiosity, humility, and a willingness to ask new questions: “Belief in God is not the same thing as unshakable belief in oneself…His thoughts are not our thoughts...” (27:10)

4. Creation, Community, and Ethical Imagination (28:30–31:13)

• Limits of Human Community

  • George connects our expanding understanding of the universe with the need to expand our ethical and communal imagination, referencing the Book of Mormon’s teaching about “other sheep” left out of the Jerusalem disciples’ worldview: “They didn’t have the imagination to contemplate the possibility that the world was much larger than they thought…” (25:32–27:05)

• Maintaining Hope

  • Growth comes when we marry humility with hope—holding both our smallness in the universe and our significance as children of God: “When he says, now I know that man is nothing, it’s not the same thing as saying, and now I know that man is insignificant… for growth to happen… we grow when we have hope…” (29:23–30:23)

5. Nature as Spiritual Practice and Healer (31:24–39:02)

• Nature as Home and Calling

  • Jani: Describes a personal “calling” towards wild, untouched places (Antarctica, Titan), feeling ownership/love for them. “This is also creation and this is beauty…I feel an ownership and a love for those places and love of God through those places.” (32:56–34:33)

• Nature, Loss, and Healing

  • George shares a moving account of how loss (his brother’s suicide) and time in nature became intertwined, with his love of the natural world growing out of mourning and a desire for healing. “There was a relationship between suffering and sorrow and loss and the healing that nature provided…something that would de-center me.” (34:33–38:38)
  • Notable quote: “When you write about nature, it’s even more evident [the pain] even though you’re not even talking about it.” (36:21)

6. Why Does Nature Move Us? (39:02–45:43)

• Material & Spiritual Kinship

  • The hosts and guests reflect on the profound sense of connection people feel in nature—whether because of shared biology, spiritual kinship, or lessons inherent in earthly cycles of life and death.

• The Meaning of Wildness

  • Jani argues the spiritual significance of seeking untouched places: “Everything before that has been a human construct…but the minute you walk out into nature…that is really the creation of God.” (40:40–42:34)

7. Stewardship, Responsibility, & Faith (45:43–54:11)

• A Doctrine of Stewardship

  • George names Latter-day Saint scripture as “the most fully developed ethic of stewardship in the Judeo-Christian tradition,” referencing explicit commands for resourcefulness, consideration of the poor and future generations, and condemnation of waste. (51:45)
  • “God takes pleasure in our pleasure…wants us to experience the glory and the wonder of the world with Him.” (45:43)

• Reluctance to Face Mortality & Consequence

  • Discuss the modern tendency to avoid reminders of mortality and the natural cycle, which can result in environmental neglect and spiritual complacency.

8. Practical Steps for Personal & Community Stewardship (54:29–62:00)

• From Global Crisis to Local Action

  • Jani recommends group and community dialogue, and, above all, emotional connection: “If everyone can feel that [amazement], then that’s where we start from… There’s an ownership that comes from feeling that.” (55:44–57:18)

• Ecological Literacy and Lived Commitments

  • George encourages “reconnaissance”: learn your local ecosystem, understand your impacts, and make small, sustainable lifestyle changes (walking/biking, reducing energy use, etc.).

    • “Learning more about the earth, learning about where I live as a non-scientist has just tripled the pleasure I have in living where I live and the sense of responsibility I have.” (60:02)

  • He also underscores the importance of civic engagement and depoliticizing environmental stewardship: “Conservatives should be conservationists—it has the same root word!” (57:43–62:01)

9. The Power of Story: Crafting a New Narrative (62:20–67:10)

• A New, Inclusive Creation Story

  • Bill: “What story are we going to tell our children about the Earth? …our faith actually teaches us that…we’re very connected to this world and are to be eternally. This is our eternal home.” (62:20–64:29)

  • George and Jani emphasize that creating a new story is not about discarding tradition, but renewing it through the lens of current knowledge and renewed questioning:

    • “We have inherited something that can be made more alive…because we bring new questions to it. In that sense, it’s new, but it’s also…made new again for us for new purposes.” (65:24)

Notable Quotes and Moments

• Carl Sagan via Kate (08:07):
  “A religion…that stressed the magnificence of the universe as revealed by modern science might be able to draw forth reserves of reverence and awe hardly tapped by the conventional faiths.”

• Jani (13:29):
  “We have to say, well, what happened before? There’s no before because that’s where time started. There’s no outside of because that’s where space ends… We forget these numbers are so big we can’t even really comprehend them.”

• George (17:23):
  “We probably should be more properly identified as Homo admirans—wondering man…our capacity for awe and wonder.”

• Bill (22:46):
  “My God’s too small. I’ve got to make room in my world for things like dinosaurs and very old Earth.”

• George (27:10):
  “Belief in God is not the same thing as unshakable belief in oneself…His thoughts are not our thoughts, his ways are not our ways.”

• Jani (32:56):
  “I feel an ownership and I feel a love for those places and love of God through those places.”

• George (43:56):
  “Nature reminds us that we’re mortal…that’s part of the reason why we’re making such ruin of things.”

• George (51:45):
  “The Restored Gospel has what I believe to be the most fully developed ethic of stewardship in the Judeo-Christian tradition.”

• Jani (57:18):
  “If everyone can feel that [connection to a place], that’s where we start from.”

• George (60:02):
  “That I think…feeling called to life is really, really important. And it’s a different niche for each of us. But we all are called to live responsibly and deliberately.”

• George (65:24):
  “It is a new story, but it’s not…it doesn’t...what needs to happen is…we have inherited something that can be made more alive and more relevant and more exciting precisely because we bring new questions to it. And in that sense, it’s new, but it’s also…made new again.”

Timestamps for Important Segments

• [08:07]: Carl Sagan quote and framing the episode
• [08:53–13:00]: Jani’s cosmic context and scientific awe
• [14:44–17:23]: George on scriptural awe and Homo admirans
• [22:46]: Bill’s story of expanding his theology to embrace science
• [23:41]: Jani on the expanding physical and spiritual narrative
• [29:23]: George on hope, significance, and the story of Moses
• [32:56]: Jani on her calling to wild places
• [34:33]: George’s nature writing and processing grief
• [51:45]: George on the Latter-day Saint ethic of stewardship
• [55:44–57:18]: Jani on local connection and empowerment
• [60:02]: George on “feeling called to life” and deliberate living
• [64:29]: Bill & group on creating a new narrative of creation

Conclusion

The episode invites listeners to confront awe and humility sparked by both science and scripture, to renew spiritual stories with what we now know about the universe, and to adopt a conscious, loving stewardship for the world. Faith, the hosts and guests argue, becomes more relevant, vibrant, and ethical when it is awake to both the vastness of creation and our unique role within it.

Memorable Takeaway:
“We have inherited something that can be made more alive and more relevant and more exciting precisely because we bring new questions to it…in that sense, it’s new, but it’s also made new again for us.” (George, 65:24)

(Summarized for listeners seeking a deep, thoughtful synthesis of the full episode. Timestamps and speaker attributions included for further exploration.)