← Faith Matters
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- [00:00]
Host 1
Hey everyone. If you're looking for a meaningful gift to give for Mother's Day this year, a subscription to Wayfair could be the perfect thing. Subscribe this week and we'll send issue seven, which is all about trust, women's voices, and women's experiences right away. You'll also get issue number eight, which we're working on right now this fall. These are beautiful, high quality, full color magazines packed with incredible art, wisdom and thoughtful writing. These there are links to get a look inside issue 7 and to subscribe for 20% off in the show notes. Thank you so much for your support.
- [00:35]
Host 2
Hey everybody.
- [00:35]
Narrator/Intro Host
This is Aubrey Chavez from Faith Matters. Today we are so honored to share a conversation with Father James Martin, a Jesuit priest, New York Times best selling author, and the founder of Outreach, a ministry for LGBTQ Catholics. His new memoir is called Work in Progress, Confessions of a Busboy, Dishwasher, Caddy Usher, Factory worker, Bank teller, corporate tool, and Priest. And yes, he held every one of these job before he found his calling. But beneath the laughs, this book is really about the slow, unglamorous, often uncomfortable work of transformation. In our conversation today, Father Jim talks about growing up desperate to be liked and what it has looked like to become someone willing to speak up and make waves when it matters. We talk about the difference between kindness and people pleasing, about staying connected to religious institutions that can both nourish and wound us and why he believes doubt is a natural part of a living, growing faith. In a moment when so many public voices feel reactive and divisive, Father Jim stands in conviction without losing compassion, offering a steady, grounded wisdom that feels deeply needed right now. We're so grateful for this conversation and we are so excited to share it with you. Now, here's Father James Martin.
- [01:42]
Host 1
All right, well, Father James Martin, thank you so much for being here. It's a true, true honor to have you on.
- [01:47]
Father James Martin
My pleasure. It's an honor to be on.
- [01:50]
Host 1
Thank you. We. Well, I think a good place to start. We have so much that we'd like to talk to you about, but a place that might be good is that throughout. So your new book, really fun. Just love to hearing about your, your early life. And there was a thread throughout the book where I think it's fair to say that you, you know, you wanted to be liked. You sort of like tended to apologize maybe for things that you didn't really need to apologize for. And there was this, and in some cases that led to, you know, lack of a, lack of boundaries or even being a doormat. In some ways, I think that was. I think those are your. Your words. I'm not sure.
- [02:22]
Father James Martin
Yeah, that's right.
- [02:23]
Host 1
That's what. Words in your mouth.
- [02:24]
Father James Martin
That's accurate.
- [02:24]
Host 1
I'm curious, though. Now it seems like you're so well known in some ways for speaking up, you know, for having moral courage in, in places where, you know, you're not going to please everybody. How has that transformation looked. Looked for you over the course of your life?
- [02:40]
Father James Martin
I really like the way you said that. Speaking up in places where, you know, not everyone's going to approve of you. That's exactly right. That was kind of a long journey, basically. And I think, you know, the book Work in Progress is about, you know, growing up in the 60s and 70s and 80s and finding work through all these summer jobs and as you say, you know, finding God eventually. I tend to think that most teenagers suffer from that, you know, the desire. The sort of overwhelming desire to be liked, you know, to be in the in crowd, to be cool, to be popular, basically. And so, you know, I think that dogged me through young adulthood. And I really didn't start to let go of it until I realized that, you know, it's not the most insightful insight, but that, you know, not everybody's going to like or like you or love you or approve of you. And if you, you know, sort of hold yourself hostage to that, you're kind of paralyzed. Right. And when we look at, you know, the example of Jesus, I mean, I always say if Jesus waited for people to like him, he would have never left Nazareth. Right? He would be still sawing wood in Nazareth. And so that's, that's the model, of course, but it's this freedom from the need to be liked, loved, or approved of that I was really kind of freeing for me and my. My sort of spiritual life.
- [03:57]
Host 2
I'd love to ask you too, and this feels related to me, but there was also. There were lots of times where you talked about just this aversion to being a beginner, like, to. To. For people to realize that you didn't know what you were doing. And that was so familiar. Like, that feeling to me is still, you know, know, so deep. I'd rather hide or, or avoid the situation that will reveal that I don't know what I'm talking about. And, and this seems like a. Like something you just kept going back and learning again and again, learning to. To ask for help, learning really to just be. Be new at something. It almost felt like a spiritual practice or like a spiritual practice. That would be useful to just be. Maybe it's a humility thing to just genuinely be vulnerable enough to say, I need help with this thing. So I was very curious how that's followed you into your adult life.
- [04:44]
Father James Martin
It's a humility thing. And, you know, you guys are recording in Utah, Is that right?
- [04:50]
Host 1
That's right.
- [04:51]
Father James Martin
Right. So, for example, I know there's a lot of skiing in Utah. Right. So I've. I've only been skiing maybe once or twice in my life. So as I was thinking about Utah and your question, I was thinking if I ever went to Utah. Utah and was skiing, I'd have to ask, like, I don't know how to put on skis, and I don't know, you know, the right way to ski down the hill and all that kind of stuff. You know, I don't know. Are you guys skiers by any chance, or.
- [05:14]
Host 2
I took. I literally took lessons this year.
- [05:17]
Father James Martin
Okay, there you go. But so, you know, the. The experience of sort of feeling a little uncomfortable and unsure and a little embarrassed, and I think that was really a part of my life growing up. And I had this kind of visceral reaction, almost like I was being humiliated or shamed. Right. Of course, that's. You know, that's about being a boy in the 60s and 70s. Maybe it's being an adolescent even today. But that certainly was the case back then. So I had to get over that, because eventually you do have to ask for people for their help, because when you're working as a bus boy or dishwasher, a teller or a caddy, you have to ask. And so part of the book is my experiences of being forced to ask and realizing that that's not so bad. Right? It's not so bad to say. I thought it's very freeing to say, I don't know, you know, And I think it's sort of. It's. It's just very. It's true. I'll tell you a funny story. I was on a podcast a few days ago, and the host. I won't say who it is, very nice host, was also a comedian. He's also a comedian. And he was making jokes about things. Not. Not in any mean way, but jokes. And I actually said to him, I don't know what you're talking about. You know, like, I don't understand that joke, and I don't understand the. The sort of framework and, you know, kind of current stuff. I think that's very freeing. And it. And, you know, he just explained it and put Me at my ease. So you're right. Part of it is humility, and I think that's a real important part of the spiritual life.
- [06:41]
Host 1
I. If we could go back for one second to this, to the question of. Of being liked, I. You also wrote at the very end of the book, this is one of my favorite lines. I think that. I think you said 90 Christianity isn't all about kindness, but it's about 90% of it. And that, like, really, really resonated for me. And I wonder if sometimes there's a tension between discerning what's true kindness and what is just wanting to be liked, you know, not like rocking the boat.
- [07:09]
Father James Martin
How have you.
- [07:09]
Host 1
How have you managed that, that tension? These are all.
- [07:13]
Father James Martin
These are all great questions. I think that. What a great question. I think that when you apologize for something, it should be apologizing for something you actually did wrong. Right. I mean, and I think there's this, a concept I. I came across recently, I don't know where I was reading it, called sort of new fawning, if you heard of this sort of. Yeah. So fawning is. Is, as I understand it, kind of almost abasing yourself, oh, I'm sorry about this, or praising someone in a sort of a unrealistic or dishonest way just to kind of curry favorite. And I think that was part of what I was doing when I was growing up. I tell the story of delivering newspapers, and they were sort of free papers that people could pay for if they wanted to or not. And I would always apologize when I was collecting for the papers. I'm sorry, I'm sorry. And my dad said, what are you apologizing for? You haven't done anything wrong. And so I think that's the key. You know, if you've certainly. If you've done something wrong or if you've harmed someone or offended someone, obviously apologizing is. Is part of the, you know, the way of life, the moral way of life, you know, not to mention the Christian way of life. But apologizing for something that you didn't do or that's just, you know, you're sort of. You're being you, I think is a sort of a way of fawning. And I think there is that very good tension there between you want to be kind and you want to be thoughtful and charitable and ask for forgiveness, but you also don't want to be a doormat. You know, I don't think that's. That's just healthy. But, yeah, it's a tension I think we Jesuits talk about discerning. You have to discern what's the right thing to do in each sit.
- [08:49]
Host 1
Yeah, that totally makes sense. I. That part of the book really resonated with me. So my very first job after I served my LDS mission, so I was, you know, 21 and I had. I got this like, temp job and I became known as the guy that always said sorry. And I was. So as. As I heard you talking about that, I was like, oh, we, we definitely share something there. And I. Looking back on it, it was, as you write, sort of like a. It was not true in a lot of ways. Like, I knew I had nothing to be sorry for, but it was a way to like, yes, myself and curry favor, which it's a hard thing to. And it works. You know, people really like you when you, when you do that.
- [09:28]
Father James Martin
And yes. Yeah, that's a really great experience. I mean, sometimes they do, sometimes they don't. Sometimes they sort of start thinking of you as someone who is kind of apologizing, just like for being alive, you know.
- [09:41]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [09:41]
Father James Martin
And that was exactly my experience too, you know, and you eventually have to say to yourself, as I'm sure you did, it sounds like, what am I apologizing for?
- [09:49]
Host 1
Yeah, right.
- [09:50]
Father James Martin
Because it also does something interior to you. It makes you feel like less than everybody else. Right. But, yeah, so that, but, but that tension you said is really well stated, which is between being kind and wanting to ask for forgiveness and being a doormat and being fawning. Yeah, yeah. So that was my experience too.
- [10:08]
Host 1
Yeah. Let me just ask one more follow up and then you've got. But like this, this is something that's very interior for me. So it, yeah, it's helpful to hear this. I. So we, I think we've established, you know, kindness and, you know, false apology or even just niceness are really not the same thing. And kindness can often entail standing up for yourself or speaking. Speaking truth, you know, in a, In a genuine way. And there's this contingent, or I would say there's this idea that I've seen become more prominent in recent years that, you know, the, like, that kindness and niceness are very different. And, you know, Jesus flipped tables and so what we need to do, and I often have seen this in groups that are sort of like the protectors of orthodoxy. Like, we need to be bold, we need to speak the truth. We're not going to apologize for it. And I feel like sometimes that kindness isn't niceness. Like, Jesus was fierce. Jesus Flipped tables, gets sort of like swings, this. The pendulum all the way into. And we actually are not being you know, protectors of. Of relationship and protectors of connection and. And love. Do you have you. I don't know if you've seen that. Absolutely. Tension on the other side, you know.
- [11:23]
Father James Martin
Absolutely. And then this whole thing about that sort of moves into. And then even empathy and compassion are like a weakness.
- [11:30]
Host 1
That's exactly right.
- [11:32]
Father James Martin
You know, it's funny. I mean, a lot is not to get too. Too philosophical, but, you know, I studied some philosophy as a Jesuit, and a lot of this is Friedrich Nietzsche. And Nietzsche was saying, as I'm sure you know, Nietzsche was saying, that Christianity is like a religion for losers. Because what's really important is kind of, you know, strength and boldness and, you know, kind of do it on your own. And the Superman and Superwoman, I guess. And I think that kind of, like, moves into that kind of territory. Look, I think, you know, Jesus, you know. Yes, Jesus flips over the tables, right? And he kind of scolds the apostles sometimes. But a couple observations. One, he doesn't do it a lot. And when he's on the cross, he's on the cross. And after the resurrection, he comes back and says, peace be with you. Not now. I'm gonna, you know, take, you know, like, take my vengeance on you. Right. So the predominant sort of stance of Jesus is one of love and mercy and compassion and listening and being with people. Also, Jesus's anger is always on behalf of something or someone else, right? So the temple or someone who's poor or something like that or, you know, God's holy name or something. And usually in other circles, it's about. I'm getting angry because about. It's about me. Someone's. Someone's getting angry at me. But no, I have heard this. Like, we have to be bold. You can be bold and be charitable and be loving and don't have to condemn people. I think you're right. And I think oftentimes it's just an excuse for being mean. Right. Or being sarcastic or being arrogant or judgmental. So, look, I mean, maybe I also say maybe if you're the sinless son of God, you can do that, you know, but for the rest of us, I think it's. It's. It's easy to be kind and sort of be bold at the same time. It's about not attacking people. It's about giving people the benefit of the doubt. And there are plenty of examples we see just in history of not Just Christian history or LDS history or, you know, but, you know, a history of people who are kind and can speak truth to power and, you know, like someone like Helen Keller. Let's look at Helen Keller. I mean, Helen Keller spoke truth and, you know, challenged people and challenge people to look at people with disabilities. And, you know, she was, she wasn't like, shouting at people or she wasn't doing it in a violent way. So, yeah, you can do both. You can be kind and you can be bold. Yeah.
- [13:57]
Host 1
One thing that I, if I can just pay you a brief compliment. I think one of the things that I've noticed about the way you do it is that you're never sarcastic. You never, like in your, in your tweets, for example, when you're saying something with, you know, with boldness or being straightforward, you always do it in that very straightforward way. Your sentences end in periods, you know, and it just sort of like, is what it is, as opposed to a, more, more of a mockery of the other side.
- [14:22]
Father James Martin
Yeah, well, we have this. Well, first of all, it's just a Christian thing to do. I mean, to, to, to really treat people with charity. And second of all, we have this tradition in the Jesuits, my religious order, which is basically giving people the benefit of the doubt. Right. And, and also I, I, I, I, I see so much of it on social media, and you say, you know, what kind of an example you're giving people. You know, myself as a Jesuit and a Catholic priest. I mean, I want, I need to give people a good example. So never to be sarcastic, never to be ad hominem on the person, never to be mean. And I just, I don't, I don't think I could live with myself. I also think the message gets better. Yeah, right. I mean, you know, you think about Jesus in the Gospels, and when he's asked, you know, who is my neighbor? He doesn't say, you know, you idiot. Let me tell you, These are the 10 points of a neighbor. He tells the story of the Good Samaritan, right? So, and then people say, well, but Jesus called Herod a fox. And I go back and I say, well, again, if you're Jesus, maybe you can do that, but the rest of us are not. So better to be kind.
- [15:28]
Host 2
Yeah. You had a guest recently on your podcast, James Smith, who's an Augustinian scholar. And there was something you guys talked about in that conversation that I thought was so fascinating. It's, it's this idea of disordered affections, which I understand is, it's basically Idolatry of putting something you love out of its order. And I have thought about the ways that shows up in these. In these conversations right now in our political climate, like how discerning what are. What are. What's really just idolatry. Maybe it's. It's to keep ourselves feeling like we're set apart from something that we. We really do want to reject. Or maybe it's. Maybe it's. It's our political party that we're sort of worshiping. I feel like we just mask our. Our really natural impulses to maybe protect ourselves. And I wondered how often that's really just idolatry with a pretty face.
- [16:19]
Father James Martin
Yeah, well, that's. What a great question again. So disordered affections is something also that St. Ignatius talked about, the founder of the Jesuits. And the idea is that you might have a sort of. We'll take it out of the realm of kind of social media and commentary. You might be concerned about your health, which is health. That's good. Right? We should go to the doctor. We should eat well and sleep well and all that and take care of ourselves. So that's a, that's something that's ordered correctly. That's a. That's an affection. You know, if you are so concerned about your health that you never visit anyone in the hospital, like I'm going to say some crazy example, like even a relative when they're sick, because you're afraid of getting sick. That's disordered. So that's the idea. The idea of taking care of your health is good, but when it becomes disordered and ordered towards something else, which is, you know, it's kind of selfishness. It's. It needs to be looked at. I think your question is really interesting because I think one of the disordered affections could be like my own need to be. Right, right. Or my own need to be. Have the last word. Right. So that. That I think is. Is a disorder. Right. Or I have to kind of trounce this person to make them feel little, you know, so I can be big. But the, the kinds of things that I think about when I'm trying to engage people, number one, again, always give them the benefit of the doubt. Never say you're a bad Catholic or a bad Christian or a bad person. Just be. You know, people are trying their best. Never try to put them down in any way. Not ad hominem, but the other thing I was talking to, not to drop a name, but a cardinal the other day who said to me, he reminded me of Something I. I think I'm curious to know what you guys would think about this. When you're speaking or when you're saying something, you know, certainly publicly on social media, for example, you have to ask, is it true? Okay. Is it helpful? Something might be true. You might say, like, you know. You know, I. I always say, you know, I don't like the way your hair looks or something. It might be true, but it's not helpful. Right? Is it true? Is it helpful? Does it need to be said? Does it need to be said by me? And does it need to be saved by me now? Which is really. Isn't that cool? It's really helpful. And I. I think sometimes I have to say to myself, all right, now, sometimes I feel like I am the one that needs to say it. I think it's a good thing to say now. I think it's good. I think it's true. I do think it's helpful. But some things are not helpful. Right. That's so. So that's how I try to discern those things. And also, look, from a religious point of view, is it going to build up the reign of God? Is it going to help people? Is it going to help people grow in love and faith and charity? Because just attacking people is just not going to help. And let me say, within the Catholic Church, there's quite a bit of, you know, division over different things. And our joke is, in the Catholic Church, sometimes it seems like, see how they shove one another instead of see how they love one another. Yeah, yeah. So anyway. Yeah.
- [19:23]
Host 1
Oh, I really like that. I. And actually, I've been going through this sort of, like, interesting exercise, at least for me, where I've been trying to be. Get a little bit more explicit about, like, what my. What my values are and just like. So I can sort of just. I don't know, maybe I'm just too rational a thinker. But I've, like, been sort of, like, making a prioritized list, you know, and I realized honesty. So that first one, Is it true? You know, honesty is a. Is a very strong value of mine, but it's not the top of the list in the sense that it takes precedence over everything else in the sense that just because this thing is true, do I need to. Do I need to say it? And, you know, there's a very, very famous philosopher, Immanuel Kant, who had this, what he called a category, categorical imperative.
- [20:00]
Father James Martin
I know it well, I'm sure.
- [20:02]
Host 1
And basically, honesty was the very, very top of the list for him. And to the extent that it. I can't remember exactly what his example was, but in the book that I read by Michael Sandel about this, it was sort of like to the point where, you know, if the Nazis show up at the front door and ask if you're hiding a Jew. For Kant, you needed to be honest. And so I like that. That framing, that there are several competing values when you're deciding how to speak, how to speak out. And it. And I think it requires some spiritual maturity because you have to acknowledge that there are. There are tensions among good things, among virtues at times that you need to weigh.
- [20:37]
Father James Martin
Absolutely. Virtue ethics. And. Yeah, I love Kant. That's funny you should bring him up. But, you know, let's say. I was just thinking, let's say you're at someone's house for dinner and they serve you something and you say, this is awful. I mean, you don't have. It's true.
- [20:52]
Host 1
Yes.
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Father James Martin
You don't have to say it. And so some things, I think we, as we say in the Jesuits, we pass over these in silence, you know.
- [20:58]
Host 2
So I. I wanted to ask you about this tension between institutional authority and your own discernment. And is there ever tension there? Because I think this is something that we experience in our own community with the centralized and hierarchical leadership. And so I love, you, to me, seem like someone who has really pushed from the inside. You. You have this LGBTQ ministry for. For years and years, and I can't imagine that hasn't come without a lot of pushback from. Even from within your own tradition and with people that you respect and. And love and even people who maybe, you know, have more authority. So I just would love to hear how you think about that. Like, how are you ordering institutional authority?
- [21:45]
Father James Martin
Yeah, well put. That's a very well put question. So one thing that maybe some LDS people might not know is that we also take. This may seem strange. So Jesuits and members of religious orders like Pope Leo and Pope Francis, we take vows of poverty. Some people get that, okay, live simply. You give everything to the community. Chastity. They get that you're not married. You're, you know, you're sort of available to a lot of people now. The one they don't get is we take a vow of obedience. Okay. And the idea is that specifically to the Pope, but, you know, to him, through. Through him to Jesus, you know, we hope. But the idea is basically that people at a higher level understand the larger needs better. So how does it really work in the judge? What's. How it really works is the obedience is we want you to do this kind of work.
- [22:32]
Host 1
That's.
- [22:33]
Father James Martin
That's basically how it works. Like, we'd like you to. Yeah. Like, you go here, you go there. That. That's mainly how it works. But, you know, in my work with LGBT people, I have to ask permission. Right. And it's almost always granted, but it's very important for you. So that. That's the basis of this. And it's very important for me to work from within the church for a couple of reasons. Number one, I'm a Catholic priest. Number two, this is just who I am, and, you know, how I'm. I'm living. But also, you know, what I do affects other Jesuits and other Catholic priests. So if I said something crazy or did something crazy, yeah, it might affect me, but it also affects other Jesuit priests who are working all over the country and all over the world. Not because I'm, you know, a big deal, but because bishops and other Catholics will say, oh, look at those Jesuits. They're. They're saying this and they're saying that. But I also think it's just the way I like to work is from within, and I really think that's important. And I think that, frankly, I think more change comes when you work from within quietly and bringing people along. That's not everybody's way. I know that there are a lot of different ways of doing that, but that's the way I'm comfortable with, and that's the way I've chosen. So the ministry that we're doing right now is within the church. It's part of the church. And, you know, even that is tough. You know, so we are very much coloring within the lines. And, yeah, I'll be honest with you, most times, it's not a problem. It's just not. And one of the good things about that is that that makes it sort of more powerful is this. So everything I do in this ministry, you know, from, you know, writing a book about it to, you know, giving conferences to starting a ministry called Outreach, has been done with the permission of my superiors. And eventually, I met with Pope Francis, and a couple months ago met with Pope Leo, you know, both of whom were very encouraging. So here's the point. If anyone calls one of my Jesuit superiors and says, I can't believe Jim Martin did this, they're going to say, yeah, well, we know we gave him permission to do it, you know, rather than putting them into. Into difficult situation. So there is some tension, but, you know, not as. Not. Not A lot, because I'm really careful, and I always ask for permission.
- [24:42]
Host 2
Wow.
- [24:42]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [24:44]
Host 2
And can I ask one more? I. I guess I. I also feel like. I could imagine that that creates tension just for you in community with lay members of the church who. Who fundamentally disagree with you on these issues. It feels like that could really be. I think that that can just be hard.
- [25:02]
Father James Martin
It can at times. But, you know, here. Here's the thing. For the most part, in general, at least in the United States, most Catholics feel there should be some place for LGBT people in the church in general. So in general, people are supportive. Some people are super supportive and, you know, just kind of over the top and, you know, you're doing such great work and blah, blah, blah. Now, that's not the case. Everywhere in the world. You know, Sub Saharan Africa, Eastern Europe. There's quite a bit of resistance, but I don't get a whole lot of pushback. I do get, you know, sometimes there's protests and talks canceled and things like that. But I think, you know, I have to say, I think because people know by now that I am doing it from within the church, they're more comfortable with me. Right. And they know that I'm asking for permission, and they might not, you know, agree with all that, but they know that, you know, I'm a faithful Catholic, and I'm a Christian, and I believe in the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. And so I'm not sort of speaking against anything that's, you know, that fundamental, you know, in the faith. And so I think people by now have kind of, you know, in a sense, given me the benefit of the doubt. But really, it's not a problem. Like, you know, I. I celebrate Mass on Sundays at the local church, and, you know, people are like, nice homily. I mean, they're not. They're not focused on that as much. So. But sometimes it can be a problem. Sometimes. And this is where I go back to. Not everybody can, like, love or approve of you. You know, you really have to be free of that because. And I really believe that the ministry we're doing is really, you know, along the lines of what I think Jesus would want us to do, which is reaching out to people in the margins. So it's. Yeah. So for the most part, it's not a problem.
- [26:41]
Host 1
I'm curious either, you know, examples maybe from your own life or potentially when you're engaging in spiritual direction, how you respond to people who look at the institution and see what they consider to be issues. You know, um, either and, you know, it could be, you know, issues that happen in history, and it's like, oh, could God really ordained the way that this. That this unfolded? Or maybe in some cases, more modern social issues. Like, I don't agree with, you know, a general stance of the church on a. On a particular thing. And they feel like, even though they've been, you know, a part of the. A part of the institution in some cases for their whole lives, and obviously, I'm speaking from our tradition where this happens very, very regularly, that they feel like for morally reasons, they may need to separate themselves and. Yeah, I'll just, like, I'll just pause there.
- [27:29]
Father James Martin
No, no, no, it's great. And I'm sure, you know, I would probably answer this that the same way you would, which is basically, look, this is divinely instituted, but it's a human organization. And I. Look, I. When people feel, you know, in particular, I mean, the. The most serious, you know, crimes would be sex abuse in the Catholic Church, right? And it's in lots of different churches and organizations. The Boy Scouts, you know, everywhere, women's ordination, LGBTQ issues. Those kinds of. Those are the kinds of things that distance people. Sometimes political things, but not as much. It's more theological stuff. And one of the things I do in spiritual direction is you have to really accompany these people and take what they're saying seriously. Right? Like, I can no longer in good conscience be a member of this church. And, you know, I'm going to say, like, if that's in good conscience, you know, I'm not going to sort of go against that. But for people who ask advice, right. And want my opinion, I often say, look, the church has been full of sinners since day one. And I don't mean Jesus. But, you know, you look at St. Peter, St. Peter denies knowing Jesus three times. Okay, Judas, let's not even talk about him. You know, he was one of the original 12. James and John. What are they all about? They're all about, I want the best seat in the house, in the kingdom of God. There. The other disciples are indignant about them. There must have been tons of, like, disagreements. Peter and Paul have arguments, right? So the church has always been full of sinless, of sinful people. Now, that is not an excuse. Like, therefore, we should excuse sinfulness or sex abuse or misogyny or homophobia, racism or something like that. But it is to put this in perspective and to say, you know, the search for a religious organization that is sinless is a search without end. You're never going to find an organization. And I, I say to people, yes, you can distance yourself from the church, but you are kind of cutting yourself off from something else, which is community, which is the wisdom of the community, and which is something. I'll tell you something funny. I thought this was ascribed to the founder of the Paulists, which is a Catholic religious order, but someone said, no, he never said that. I don't know where I got it from that, that religion helps you. Tell me what you guys think about this. I really like this. Connect and correct. So connect. You connect with the community. We're social beings. We want to sort of be together. Right. When we worship God and Correct. You're not always going to be right. And there's part of the community that pushes you to do things that you might not want to do, like, for example, care for the poor, reach out to those in the margins, or forgive 7 times 70. So I really like that. And I do think that as understandable as it is, when people distance themselves, they are also cutting themselves off from the community. So it's, it's a tension there.
- [30:22]
Host 1
It makes sense. I do really like that. Connecting and correct. Yeah. It is. My only addendum to that, I think would be in some. So have you heard the phrase that the church exists to comfort the afflicted and afflict the comfortable?
- [30:34]
Father James Martin
Yes. I love that.
- [30:35]
Host 1
I think that's my. Like, I think in many cases I have been the person who has needed correction, and at other times I'm the person that's needed comfort, you know, and my hope has been that that's. That my religious community is somewhere I can go for either one of those things, you know, depending on the circumstance that I find myself.
- [30:51]
Father James Martin
Yeah. And when you exempt yourself for. Again, for good reason, some people really find it difficult. You do cut yourself off from that. You cut yourself off from that pushing. I mean, I think, you know, one of the difficult things, probably the, the difficult thing for Christians would be things like caring for the poor, caring for the sick, but also kind of personal things like forgiving people and praying for your enemies. And that. That's kind of hard. And I think if it's just you and God, then you can often sort of escape that, that kind of being afflicted, as you were saying, but also being comforted. That's. That's a good point too. Yeah.
- [31:31]
Host 2
I'd love to ask you about another thing that I think often becomes a wedge between your faith community. And I think that it's doubt. It's like this as, as beliefs Change and evolve or you lose certainty. I know that can be such a destabilizing experience. And so I've been so curious how you think about literal, specific beliefs and what role those, you think those need to play in, in a, in a life of faith.
- [31:56]
Father James Martin
Well, I, first of all, I think that doubt is just part of the life of the believer. It just is.
- [32:01]
Host 2
Really?
- [32:02]
Father James Martin
Yeah. Just because, you know, you look at, like, St. Thomas. I mean, the poor guy, we were talking about this the other day at lunch, you know, he has one moment of doubt, and for the rest of his life doubting Thomas. Imagine, you know, imagine like you trip once and then you're the guy who trips.
- [32:19]
Host 1
Right.
- [32:21]
Father James Martin
So I think it's natural because. Why is it natural? Well, we're human beings, and we don't have the benefit of physically seeing Jesus Christ, and I mean literally, bodily, as the disciples did. But I often say to people, you know, you got to give yourself a break, because I always think this is so funny. The disciples had doubts, and Jesus was right in front of them, which is just amazing to me. Like, they have seen all these miracles, you know, walking on the water, whatever your favorite one is, the multiplication of loaves and the fishes, healing people, raising people from the dead, they still doubt. It's just amazing to me. So we have to forgive ourselves who don't have the benefit of the kind of experience that the disciples had. I do think, though, that fundamentally we are called to believe in a God, you know, who we really can't understand, like, eventually. I mean, we can't, you know, as far as your ways are above, you know, the, the earth and whatever the, the psalm quote is, you know, why is there suffering? You know, why is this happening in my life? I mean, we really have to be comfortable with the fact that we're not going to fully comprehend who God is and how God works. That's harder for some people. But I think a certain amount of doubt is just part of life. You know, look, I mean, God forbid, you know, someone in your family gets sick or, you know, my mom died about a month and a half ago, and I watched her on her deathbed. I know that sounds really dramatic, but it really was. And I was, you know, praying and praying and praying and praying, and, you know, she was still agitated, and I, I, I can't say God is causing this, but, you know, doubt is natural in those kinds of situations. Now, I didn't understand. I still felt that God was with us, and I believe that God was with me and with my mom. But I didn't understand what was happening at the moment, you know, But I could understand how a person would say, you know, I don't believe in God, who could do this. Right. I just think it's natural. But again, it is that it is kind of active humility to say it's okay for me not to understand this, you know?
- [34:23]
Host 2
And do you find that the. The sacraments, that. That is a. I mean, I feel like, for me, that has kind of provided some structure that has been like a bridge through really deep seasons of doubt. But at the same time, I'm. It. I question even deeper, you know, like, what if these are meaningless and what if it's nothing? Like what? And so it's been hard to sort of justify doing the things if the feeling is gone. And so I'd love your perspective about the way just liturgy and, like, spiritual habits that we have with our community and. And ritual. How. How can those things nourish you in these seasons if you're. If they're part of what you're questioning?
- [35:05]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [35:05]
Father James Martin
Oh, also. Wow. Great. Wow. That's. That's really pretty deep, I think, to. Let me think about this for a second. I don't think that the sacraments are always going to have that feeling, you know, attached to them. You know, every time you participate in one of the sacraments, you're not going to be overwhelmed and moved and cry and things like that. But the times that you do, you have to take that seriously. Right. As a way of God sort of working within you. And I also think it is a sense of kind of trust in God that God is there. I mean, to use it with an example, with, like, a relationship. I always think it's helpful to think about a relationship to God or a relationship with God as similar to a relationship with a friend. You're not. When you're with a friend or, you know, a husband or a wife or whatever, you're not always going to feel this feeling, right. Of, like, honeymoon feeling. But you trust that the other person still loves you and is still caring for you, and you do things even if you don't feel like doing them right. And I think that's part of the relationship. So, you know, not every time I am celebrating Mass am I kind of overwhelmed with tears, but sometimes I am. Right? And I have to say that's probably more on me than it is on God. You know, how. How open I am. So I. I think we do these things even though we might not feel them right, because we. We believe right so in other words, I guess what I'm saying is belief is not simply about feeling. I have another. A friend of mine says this, you'll love this line. It's really great about like, not, not experiencing God. If you don't feel God's. If you don't feel that God is near, guess who moved. Yeah, so, so, but it's not, it can't always be about feel. It's like saying, I don't feel like take. I don't feel like taking care of my child today, you know, so I'm not going to do it. I'm not going to change his diaper or drive him to school or, you know what I mean? You know, you do it anyway out of love, but sometimes you feel it, you know, and that, that's okay.
- [37:13]
Host 1
Yeah, I think I'm, I thought about that quote. You mentioned that in your book as well. And I wonder, I mean, I, I think that tracks for my own life, like when I feel somewhat distant from God, I can almost always trace it to, you know, just like a lack of, you know, time spent on my part or, or whatever it is. And yet I think of saints like Mother Teresa, you know, I use that
- [37:37]
Father James Martin
term sort of, I knew you were going to.
- [37:39]
Host 1
You knew I was going there or, or, you know, or St. John of the Cross, you know, who experienced these in some cases, very long lasting dark nights of the soul. How do you, how do you think about those instances?
- [37:48]
Father James Martin
You're right. Yeah. Right. Because that doesn't track with them. They're not, it's not like they moved out of the way. I think, again, it's very mysterious. So in both those cases, for listeners who don't know, both Mother Teresa and John of the Cross had these extended periods of feeling God's absence, not that God, you know, was absent. And for Mother Teresa, you know, it lasted from like, to the end of her life, according to her biographer. And we even have Jesus on the cross and we can discuss what Psalm 22 means. But, you know, saying, my God, my God, why have you abandoned me? Right. At least feeling like God has abandoned them. And I think the answer, again, is we don't know. You know, for Mother Teresa, she eventually saw it as a way of identifying with the poor who felt abandoned. Right. By the same token, I would say, you know, John of the Cross and Mother Teresa also had really intense mystical experiences. So it wasn't as if, and I know you're not saying this, it wasn't as if they had nothing, you know. Yeah, I think that the idea is sort of they're being asked to be faithful based on their experiences. So it's about fidelity. I often think about Mary. So, you know, in the Gospels, the angel comes to Mary and, you know, she has this incredible experience. Right. Whether or not it was literally like that, we don't know. But she certainly had this profound spiritual experience. Right. With the angel. But then, you know, does she have anything? And then she finds Jesus in the temple with Joseph, you know, at age 12. But then the first miracle is the wedding feast at Cana in John. Traditionally, does she have anything? I mean, we imagine she's praying and whatnot. But does she have anything that's kind of overpowering like that, like the Annunciation? Maybe not. And so she, too, had to kind of go on those experiences. And that's why I think in spiritual direction, often it's helpful to get people to look back when they're struggling, like to say, where has God been? And trust that that same God is with you now.
- [39:53]
Host 1
Yeah.
- [39:53]
Host 2
You had a really interesting conversation on your podcast recently, or maybe a couple months ago with Father Richard. Ro and I would. I loved this part. You started talking about together, about personal righteousness. And I'm not sure that's something I've examined deeply because it seems inherent in a life of faith. Like, of course, that's the goal. Like, be. How can you just keep improving and be better and be more righteous? And I sort of oscillate between shame and feeling relief that, you know, I check the box and I think it's. I think there may be another way to think about this. Is it the path or is it sometimes the distraction?
- [40:34]
Father James Martin
Yeah, I. I think that's. I. I think it's a tension. I mean, obviously we want to do the right thing. Obviously we want to do the right thing. Like, we want to live well and follow the. The Gospels and do what Jesus asks us to, or at least that, you know, love, mercy, compassion, forgiveness, all that kind of stuff. Definitely. But I think his point was that it can't just be about sort of my own personal sanctification. Like, I am going to make myself into this, you know, perfect person, perfectly righteous, because it has to be about a relationship with other people, which can be very complicated. And really it's about a relationship with God. Right. So I think it's a tension, because I think sometimes the focus on personal righteousness can just become too much navel gazing. Right. And. And we're never going to be perfectly righteous. I mean, I think until we get to Heaven. Right. And then even then, who knows how that's going to work?
- [41:29]
Host 1
But.
- [41:29]
Father James Martin
Right. Because we're all. We're all sort of, you know, works in progress, to quote the title of my book. So I think it's a tension. I think that what you said is really revelatory, which is. I think sometimes it leads to shame. Right. It leads. And. And shame. Shame is. I am a bad person versus guilt. You know, I did a bad thing. And I think that's where people get kind of trapped. And it can be kind of. A little bit of. It can be. Not all the time. Can be kind of navel gazing versus kind of going out. Right. I mean, sort of going out to be with people and to, you know, try to live out that faith. So it's. It's a tension as. As most things in the spiritual life are.
- [42:07]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [42:08]
Host 1
I think, based on my understanding, I think Richard Orr would agree with you that those things that Jesus taught, love, compassion, mercy, are. I don't know if imperatives is the right word, but they're certainly. There's certainly commandments, you know, that Jesus gave in a very real way. And I think the question arises for the person trying to live a spiritual life is what are those things in service of. And there's one paradigm in which they're in service of. Of salvation. Meaning. Like you're in this paradigm of sort of judgment and. And the tension is between sin and salvation. Or you're in a paradigm where the tension is between sort of like brokenness and healing. And one side of that equation, sin and salvation is. Is largely. It's just natur on ourselves. When you think of it as these things are in service of healing, you're often focused on. On other people.
- [42:54]
Father James Martin
Yeah. And that's Richard Rohr's way of looking at it. Yeah, yeah. Brokenness and healing and, you know, which I think is kind of gentler for people. The other thing, it's funny, I thought you were going to say also sometimes it's on like, literal personal salvation. Like, I am doing these things in order that I may get to heaven. Like, I'm just going to kind of check these boxes then, you know, do good things, you know, versus an understanding of ourselves in community. That I'm doing these things not only for my own. I mean, look, I want to get to heaven too. Right. And I'm doing these things not only for my own personal righteousness, sanctification, salvation, but also because I really do believe that the other person is valuable. Right. Is to be reverenced as a child of God, deserves our attention. So if I see a homeless person, I'm going to give that person $5 or $10 or if I'm, you know, feeling generous, $20. Not only so I can check the box and say, oh, see God, you know, I'm going to heaven, but because I feel that that person is my brother and sister. Right. And it is, in fact, as Matthew 25 says, is in fact Jesus. So it's a, it's, it's also a communal thing too. So. Yeah, I mean, although I think we all agree, and I think we'd agree with Richard Ward, it's kind of the tension between these things.
- [44:05]
Host 1
Yeah, love that. I, I, I want to ask you about this, and hopefully this is, this is okay. The, the church, the Catholic Church has been, you know, very prominently in the news, maybe more so than in the past several years. Yes, in the past, in the past couple of weeks. I think one of the most fascinating, maybe this is an entry point for a brief conversation, but one of the most fascinating quotes was from the Vice President of the United States who said that the Pope should stick to matters of morality. And that is, there is some, there are some layers to dissect in just that quote. But maybe I'll start by sort of asking you the question to you, what is the responsibility of, at least without making it an overly broad based question, what is the responsibility of Catholic Church leaders, at least in this tradition that you're most familiar with, when it comes to world affairs or things beyond, again, the matters of sin and salvation? Sure.
- [44:58]
Father James Martin
Well, it's funny you should say that. The basic mission is to proclaim the gospel. That's, that's the mission, to proclaim the gospel, to bring people into relationship with Jesus Christ, you know, to help them understand the love of God, to let them know the Holy Spirit is with them.
- [45:14]
Host 2
Yeah.
- [45:14]
Father James Martin
So it's the gospel, basically. And the Pope would say that, too. That's the mission of the church and that's the mission of the Pope. You know, the Pope is speaking out on moral issues. It was funny that the Vice President said that because, you know, he said the Pope should tick to moral issues while he's speaking about war and peace and poverty. And I'm sorry, those are moral issues.
- [45:34]
Host 1
Yes.
- [45:35]
Father James Martin
I think he may have meant, I don't know what he meant. I'm not the Vice President. I don't know. And maybe he thought they meant like personal morality issues like forgiveness and whatever, but war, and, you know, whatever you think of the current war is a moral issue. The, the role of the church is to proclaim the gospel in season and out. And so you notice that when Pope Leo responds to these things, he'll almost never use someone's name or mention a country he'll talk about as he did in this prayer for peace a couple days ago. Peace. Blessed are the peacemakers. You know, Jesus asks us to reconcile that kind of thing. Only when asked specifically what do you think about this politician or that politician or that country or this country, will he say, okay, now that you've asked me, you know, here you go, xyz. So I think he's doing great. And I think the key is, you know, you preach the gospel and if it has political implications, so be it. So if the Pope stands up and says, we must care for the poor, the marginalized, the stranger, and people say, oh my gosh, well, that means X, Y and Z politically, well, so be it. He's not trying to be political, he's trying to be a religious leader. And I think he's doing a good job. So that's, that's, it's basically proclaimed the gospel. I heard a really interesting comment from Cardinal Michael Czerny, who's a friend of mine, who's a Jesuit, who said, actually, we are always engaged in politics because it's about living in society, but we're not supposed to be partisan. That's the other thing. Don't say, vote Democrat, vote Republican. Don't vote for him, vote for him. And I think the Pope's doing a good job, frankly, because he's focusing it on Jesus. He's focusing it on the message, love, mercy, compassion, peace, unity. And if that has political implications, then kind of so be it.
- [47:24]
Host 1
Yeah, I, I agree with you. I've been really, I've been really inspired by, by the Pope especially, I mean, both, both Pope Francis and Pope Leo I've always found very inspirational and especially in the past, in the past few weeks, I'll tell you also. Go ahead, please.
- [47:36]
Father James Martin
I knew them, I knew Pope Francis and had met with them a couple times. And I, I'll take. Can I tell you a funny story?
- [47:43]
Host 1
Please.
- [47:43]
Father James Martin
So there was a meeting of about 350 Catholic representatives over the last two years called the Synod, the Synod of Bishops. And I was chosen as a delegate. And I was very honored to go. And we sat around these round tables for a month and talked about issues in the church. And they were cardinals and archbishops and priests and lay people. And, you know, it's very exciting. So in October 2023, and in October 2024, and one of the people at my table for two weeks was Cardinal Robert Prevost from Chicago. He was sitting, literally sitting across the table.
- [48:17]
Host 1
Wow.
- [48:18]
Father James Martin
Yeah. And so I got to know him a little bit. You know, I'm not his best friend. So here's the funny story. So I was helping out ABC News during the Conclave, and. And, you know, it's not true to say that he was on nobody's list. He was on a lot of people's list. He was like the second tier, basically. Nonetheless, when he came out on the balcony, I mean, you know, I. I knew this guy, and there he is dressed up like the Pope. So here's the funny story. So I, I, you. I get back to the Jesuit community, where I was staying, which was right near St. Peter's Square, and I was so excited. You know, everyone was so excited, particularly an American Pope. And I said to some of the Jesuits, I said, I can't believe it. He was at my table. And they said, no, you were at his table.
- [49:04]
Host 1
I guess that's how it works.
- [49:06]
Father James Martin
That's right. So great. Just the other thing I wanted to say is he's a great guy. He is a great guy. Just kind and good listener. And I was talking to some of his Augustinian brothers. He's a member of the Augustinian religious order. I thought this was really interesting. And this kind of plays into what we were talking about. I ran into an Augustinian, and I said to him, this was right after the election. We're down. Down in St. Peter's Square, more or less near their headquarters, and I run into this American guy. And I said, are you an Augustinian? He goes, yeah. And I said, so do you know him? And he said, who, Bob? And I said, yeah. He said, I've known him for 40 years. So I was talking to him, and I said, what's he like? And he said, he's. He's very kind. He's super smart, he's a great listener, but he's no pushover. And I think we can kind of
- [49:53]
Host 1
see that what we were talking about.
- [49:54]
Father James Martin
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So. So that's, again, that's that tension between being kind and being so bold.
- [50:00]
Host 1
Yeah, absolutely. Could you talk briefly about the concept of a. Of a just war under Catholic theology? Yeah.
- [50:09]
Father James Martin
I'm not a theologian, so I might be a little out of my depth, but this comes from St. Augustine and Thomas Aquinas. And the idea, again, I'm going to probably mess this up, but this idea That a just war, one that is just. Is one that is about defense and is also proportionate. Right. In its response and doesn't target civilians. So you could. I think listeners could probably go online to find all of the kind of sort of categories. But, you know, recently, you know, popes have been really just focusing on peace all the way back to John Paul II who said, war is always a defeat for humanity. Right. And. And Benedict and Francis and now Leo who's saying, enough of war. The, the sort of stance of the church is always for peace, Right. Like. Like Jesus's stance was. But there is this tradition of the just war that people use.
- [51:00]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah, I know. We need to let you go. I'd love to just ask you one more thing. You. You write in your Building a Bridge book that the church should be a sign of unity. And that line has stayed with me. And I, I've thought about it a lot in these last few months, and I think that's my question for you. You know, how do Christians show up and create unity in a. In a time where there are such big moral questions at play?
- [51:30]
Father James Martin
I think, first of all, by again, giving people the benefit of the doubt and assuming they're doing their best and they're trying their best to be good Christians. Right. The second thing is not by tearing them down and attacking. I mean, really trying to build up. But I think one of the easiest ways is to focus on the essentials, right, in this time of division, to focus on Jesus, to focus on the saints, to focus on the sacraments. I think that really helps. You know, when I was at the synod this, this meeting for two years, you know, there are a lot of people that had lots of different disagreements, but we all came together in prayer in the morning and at Mass, and we were able. We were all able to sort of break bread around the table. And so I think it's. I think it's really helpful. And again, it is supposed to be assigned to the world. Again, it's supposed to be see how they love one another, not see how they shove one another, because otherwise, you know, we're just another secular organization. And also, who would want to join a group of people that are always, you know, kind of fighting with each other? I think Leo, his. His motto, his papal motto is in the one, we are one, in the one capital O, in God or in Jesus, we are one. And I really like that. And I think he's really trying to, at least on the Catholic side, bring us all together.
- [52:43]
Host 1
Yeah. Well, Father Jen, thank you so much for your time today. We've been followers and admirers of your work from afar for a long time. So hopefully, you know that this is a special moment for us to be able to. To talk with you, and you've shared so many insights. I just want to express sincere gratitude.
- [53:00]
Father James Martin
Well, it's a special moment for me, and I really appreciate it, you know, coming from a slightly different tradition than I come, to be able to kind of talk about this thing and these things and show unity and just be together and, you know, just keep me in your prayers.
- [53:11]
Host 2
Yeah, yeah.
- [53:12]
Host 1
Likewise. Thank you.
- [53:13]
Host 2
Thank you.
- [53:14]
Father James Martin
All right, guys. God bless.
- [53:16]
Host 2
All right.
- [53:16]
Narrator/Intro Host
Thanks so much for listening. We really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Father James Martin. You can find his new memoir, work in progress wherever books are sold. He also has a podcast that we would love to recommend called the Spiritual Life. This is well worth adding to your queue and one of our favorites. And if faith matters content is resonating with you. We would love for you to rate and review the podcast wherever you listen. Thanks again for listening.