Job and the Truth About Suffering: Mike Petrow

Summary

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Faith Matters Podcast: "Job and the Truth About Suffering"

Guest: Dr. Mike Petrow
Date: August 9, 2026
Host(s): Aubrey Chavez, Tim, and others from Faith Matters Foundation

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Overview

This episode delves deep into the Book of Job, exploring its themes of suffering, doubt, grief, and the sacredness of honest questioning. Dr. Mike Petrow—psychologist, mythologist, spiritual director, and grief counselor—guides listeners through the ancient story, unpacks its poetic and mythic context, and draws connections to universal human experiences of heartbreak and faith crisis. The discussion candidly addresses the tension between tidy theological "answers" and the messy realities of suffering, ultimately advocating for a faith that embraces questions as sacred practice and spiritual growth.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. What is the Book of Job? (03:38–06:40)

• The Book's Place in Scripture:

  • The Book of Job is described as perhaps the most "human" text in the Bible; “the small print in God's covenant with Israel” (03:49).
  • Job’s story is universal, reflected in many cultures, and possibly the oldest written story in the Bible.
  • Reading Job as poetry and myth—not literal history—liberates readers from problematic theology and opens space for deeper meaning.

• Quote (05:53, Mike Petrow):

  • “What we're seeing here—and how we're counseled to read it—is not to think about this as something that literally happened... but to treat it as poetry.”

2. Wrestling with Suffering, Doubt, and the Problem of Evil (06:40–10:36)

• Facing the "Problem of Evil":

  • The troubling image of God and Satan wagering over Job is best read symbolically; it mirrors experiences of suffering that feel random or targeted.
  • Reading Job as myth means thinking about how the story “lives inside our soul” rather than worrying over historical accuracy.

• Personal Story (10:36–16:38):

  • Mike shares a series of profound personal losses (his brother’s suicide and his mother’s sudden illness and death) that brought him into the same anguished questioning and sense of cosmic targeting as Job.
  • Quote (15:22, Mike Petrow):
    • “I prayed the most honest prayer of my life... I could not believe that you could do this to me. And also, I cannot do this without you.”

3. Job and the Stages of Grief (17:24–28:36)

• Job as Grief in Action:

  • The five stages of grief (denial/overwhelm, anger, bargaining, sadness, acceptance) are present in Job’s story.
  • Bargaining, often misunderstood, is the process of trying on different narratives to make sense of suffering.
  • Quote (23:51, Mike Petrow):
    • “I think a lot of what we think of as denial is actually overwhelm... if something is beyond your capacity, you genuinely can't hold it.”

• Faith Crisis as Legitimate Grief:

  • Losing faith, community, or a cherished belief fits these stages; such experiences call for compassion and reflection, not minimization.

4. From Accusation, to Interrogation, to Imagination (28:36–32:05)

• Stages Beyond Classic Grief:
  • Mike expands on his model: devastation → accusation (seeking to blame) → interrogation (asking the real questions) → imagination (new possibilities, acceptance).
  • Accusation ("I need a culprit, even if it’s me") is often a defense mechanism; moving through interrogation leads to growth and creative reimagining of faith and self.

5. The Role of Questions vs. Answers in Faith (32:05–35:51)

• Faith Lives in the Questions:

  • The podcast explores whether faith thrives on answers or questions, with Mike insisting that faith is more real and expansive in the presence of questions.
  • Quote (33:53, quoting Richard Rohr):
    • “A lot of people think that doubt is the opposite of faith, and that in point of fact, certainty is the opposite of faith. If you have certainty, you don't need faith.”

• The Sacredness of Asking:

  • Curiosity is seen as divinely implanted; Jesus himself models constant questioning and seeking.

6. The Book of Job’s Theological Heart: Theodicy vs. Theophany (35:51–41:43)

• The Only "Answer" is Presence:

  • The only response to Job’s suffering isn’t an explanation (theodicy)—it’s God’s presence (theophany).
  • God arrives not to answer directly, but to meet Job in his pain, validating his questions.
  • Quote (41:21, Mike Petrow):
    • “When we see someone who's suffering... God is actually on the side of the suffering person in their honest questions.”

• God’s Response as Invitation to Wonder:

  • God’s speech to Job—“Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundations?”—is not a putdown but an expansion, inviting Job (and the reader) to awe and humility.

7. How to Move Through Anger and Grief (43:08–46:15)

• Processing Anger:
  • Anger isn’t sin; it is information and can be a signal for change or a boundary violation. Suppressing anger is what’s dangerous.
  • Quote (44:03, Mike Petrow):
    • “Don’t let your anger become unconscious. Don’t let it escape the light of awareness... There is no more dangerous anger than suppressed and denied anger.”

8. Personal Theophany: Mike’s Experiences (46:19–51:58)

• Moments of Grace Amid Loss:

  • Mike recounts mystical moments sitting with his unconscious mother, juxtaposed with holding his newborn niece, experiencing the cycles of life and death intertwined.
  • Quote (50:50, Mike Petrow):
    • “I talked about things I didn’t know about, but now my eyes have seen. And so I put my hand over my mouth, and I say nothing.”

• Grief as the Price of Love:

  • The deepest realization is that grief is the price of deep love; “it’s a price worth paying.”

9. Sacred Questions as Spiritual Practice (52:11–61:08)

• Cultivating Sacred Curiosity:

  • Make time for sacred questions (journal them, reflect on what’s being asked of you).
  • Viktor Frankl and Rilke are referenced as sages who champion embracing life’s questions rather than searching for ready answers.
  • Quote (54:58, Viktor Frankl via Mike Petrow):
    • “It didn’t really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us... We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life daily and hourly.”

• Questions as Family/Vocational Legacy:

  • Citing Carl Jung: some questions are generational, and it is our work to face what our ancestors left unresolved.

10. How to Support Others in Grief and Spiritual Struggle (61:18–62:17)

• Being Present, Not Fixing:
  • When someone is grieving or doubting, the best response is presence and validation, not answers or arguments.
  • Quote (61:18, Mike Petrow):
    • “When someone is in the devastation of deep loss and wrestling with hard questions, the best thing we can do is just to be with them and validate their honest experience and not feel that we need to give them an answer.”

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Notable Quotes & Memorable Moments

• On treating Job as a mythic, poetic story:

  “It is far more important that we're reading a story that can live inside our soul and that our soul can live inside of, than we are reading a story that can live inside of history.” (10:36, Mike Petrow)

• On honest questioning:

  “God is actually on the side of the suffering person in their honest questions.” (41:21, Mike Petrow)

• On anger during grief:

  “There is no more dangerous anger than suppressed and denied anger... Give full voice to it, give full vent to it in a way that is ideally not harming others... Anger is fuel for change.” (44:03, Mike Petrow)

• On the outcome of spiritual questioning:

  “I think the quest is in the questions. Once a week, I sit down for an hour or two with a journal and I ask myself, what are the questions that are being asked in my life this week? And then I ask myself, and what are those questions asking of me?” (53:10, Mike Petrow)

• On faith and certainty:

  “Certainty is the opposite of faith. If you have certainty, you don't need faith.” (33:53, quoting Richard Rohr via Mike Petrow)

• On inherited questions (Carl Jung):

  “It often seems as if there were an impersonal karma within a family which is passed on from parents to children... It has always seemed to me that I had to answer questions which fate had posed to my forefathers, which had not yet been answered...” (58:23, Mike Petrow quoting Carl Jung)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• 00:00–02:09: Intro and announcements
• 02:09–03:38: Framing Job as a study in suffering and questioning
• 03:38–06:40: Is Job history, myth, or poetry? How should we read it?
• 06:40–10:36: Wrestling with suffering and the “problem of evil”
• 10:36–16:38: Mike’s personal story of loss; how Job’s story comes alive
• 17:24–28:36: Job as an exploration of grief: anger, bargaining, and meaning-making
• 28:36–32:05: From accusation to interrogation to imagination
• 32:05–35:51: Where does faith live—in questions or answers?
• 35:51–41:43: Job’s narrative arc: honest questioning, friends’ failure, God’s theophany
• 43:08–46:15: How to work with anger and not minimize the grief process
• 46:19–51:58: Theophany in Mike’s life: moments of grace and meaning
• 52:11–61:08: Sacred questions as spiritual path, generational “family karma,” growing faith
• 61:18–62:17: How to support others in sorrow: be present, don’t give answers

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Takeaways

• The spiritual life is not about “solving” suffering but being present to it and letting it transform us through honest engagement.
• Sacred stories like Job help us “live inside” the universal human experience of heartbreak, making space for honest questions.
• Faith isn’t about having airtight answers, but trusting in the process of questioning, grieving, and ultimately, re-imagining what’s possible with God.
• Supporting ourselves and others in grief and faith crisis requires presence and validation—not fixing, minimizing, or pushing answers.
• The quest for meaning is inherited, lived, and handed on; our honest spiritual wrestling forms the heart of an evolving faith tradition.

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Recommended for: Anyone wrestling with suffering, doubt, faith transition, or supporting others through grief—especially those in the Latter-day Saint tradition seeking a more expansive, compassionate, and deeply human engagement with scripture and spirituality.

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Transcript

[A]

Hey everybody. We're thrilled to announce that Restore tickets are on sale now, and we're so excited to tell you about the new format for this year. We're calling it Restore Connect. It's designed to make your experience more interactive, more embodied and more communal than ever before. This year it's September 24th through 26th at the Nordisk center at UVU. We'll have an opening social on Thursday evening with two days of smaller, more intimate sessions so that you can choose the topics that are most important to you and have lots of time to connect with other attendees. And the presenters space is limited, so you're going to want to get your tickets fast. You can go to faithmatters.org restore today. We can't wait to see you in September. Hey everybody, this is Aubrey Chavez from Faith Matters. Job is probably one of the most difficult and haunting books in scripture, and this summer, as we study it together, we wanted a guide. So we've invited Mike Petro back to join us. With doctoral degrees in psychology and mythological studies, Mike helps us understand Job as an ancient text and as a story that continues to speak in our own lives today. Mike takes us straight into one of the most striking turns in the story. Job's friends show up in deep suffering, and one by one they try to defend God with tidy theology. They debate him out of his grief and ultimately accuse him of bringing his suffering on himself. But then God shows up and finally speaks, rebuking the friends and declaring that it's Job, the one who questioned, lamented and wrestled, who has spoken truthfully. Mike unpacks what that reversal means for anyone who has felt like their questions made them the problem. And then there's Job himself, a good man who loses everything. Mike walks us through what this ancient story has to teach us about our own doubt and grief and the sacred work of asking the questions, showing again how honest questioning can be the threshold of rich spiritual imagination and deeper faith. Dr. Mike Petro is the host of the Healer with a Thousand Faces podcast and one of the lead hosts on the Everything Belongs podcast with Father Richard Rohr. He's the manager of formation for the center for Action and Contemplation, a Union spiritual director and certified grief and trauma counselor. And we are so thrilled to share that he'll be joining us live at Restore Connect this year. We hope that this conversation is nourishing and that it sparks lots of new insights for you as you study the Book of Job this month. And now here's Mike Petro.

[B]

All right, well, Mike, welcome Back to the podcast. We're always so excited to get to talk with you, and this is a topic that we've been really interested in. So thanks so much for joining us again.

[C]

Yeah, always. Always good to get to hang out with the two of you. It's. It's been a minute, and just y' all are some of my favorite conversation partners, so it is an honor to be here.

[A]

Thank you.

[D]

Thanks, Mike.

[B]

We're. We've been thinking a lot about our last conversation with you, where we really wrestled with this path of descent, and I think we. Job came in and out of that conversation, of course. But this summer, we're going to be studying Job as a community, and it just felt like, oh, we've got to have you back to really dig into this story with us. And so in this conversation, I imagine it will be more of the subtext, like, this is something we'll all be reading this week when the podcast is released. But I would love to get specific for a minute. And he. I'm wondering if you could tell us a little bit about the context of Job's time. Because for me, one of the most problematic things about the story is just getting oriented right out of the gate. Like, what even are we reading? Like, is this a journal entry? Is this. Is this a poem? Like, what? And. And in our Come Follow Me manual this year, there's a specific reference to poetry, which I think is the first time I've ever seen the church approach this story that way, at least explicitly in a manual. And so I'd love for you to just help us, like, orient around what we're reading in the Book of Job.

[C]

Yeah. Okay. So. So scholars abound, right? So on a scale, first of all, let's start here. On a scale of 1 to 10, how nerdy do you want to get here? Because I can get real nerdy about this one.

[B]

Nerdy.

[C]

All right. Maximum nerdy. All right, listeners, apologies. We're going to get a little bit nerdy to begin with. So there is a scholar. I don't remember who it is. It might have been Harold Bloom, who is a famous literary scholar, and he. Something like, don't quote me on this research, nerds. Don't attack me if I get it wrong, but he said something like, all the books of Western literature orbit around the Bible, and all the books of the Bible orbit around Job, like planets orbiting around the sun. And he says it's. It's the most important book in the book of the Bible. I have always said that the Book of Job is the small print in God's covenant with Israel. And I also think, honestly, it's one of the most human books. It is a gift to every single person who has ever experienced doubt, grief, or hard questions that this book exists in scripture. I have returned to it often. It breaks my heart and it touches my broken heart every single time I read it. And it gives me a lot. So I am personally, I got to say, very, very grateful that we have the book of Job. The book of Job itself, in its kind of history is. It is a bit of a puzzle. There are some scholars who think that it might be the oldest written down story in all of scripture. Right. And I'm not even saying that it takes place before the book of Genesis in the chronology of the story that we're being told, but it's probably the first story written down. There are stories that sound like Job that show up in a lot of different cultures. So I think in and of itself, it's touching into something that's relatively universal and shared across different people groups. And it's interesting. I looked at. Help me out here, because I don't know the terminology, but I looked at the landing page that's guiding folks into reading it together.

[B]

And just like the. Come follow me, man. Like lesson 100.

[C]

Yeah, absolutely. And one of the things that I found really, really interesting is, you know, the book of Job starts with absolutely fascinating story, which is that God is in. In the court with the heavenly hosts and a character named Satan shows up to talk to God and they have a conversation. And from there the story gets really wild, very intense. But y' all were. Were counseled to read this as poetry, right. And not something that literally happened. Am I getting that correct?

[B]

So let me find. Yeah, it said. And this is the part I was referencing too. It says the opening chapters of Job emphasize in a po way, Satan's role

[A]

as our adversary or accuser.

[B]

They don't describe an actual interaction between God and Satan. Yeah, that's the quote.

[C]

Yeah, yeah. And so what happens in this story is we. We encounter a very good, very righteous person. Right. The story tells us he's blameless and devastating things happen to him. And he asks some really, really hard questions that feel like he's losing his faith in God, in his friends, in the religious tradition he's a part of. And then other friends show up and they try to comfort him and they end up getting in a big argument with him about it. But it all starts with this scene in the heavens where God is there. And Satan, which means the accuser, shows up and God says, have you noticed my servant Job? There's really no one like him. He's pretty great. And Satan character says, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, but, but he's only that way because you bless him and you protect him. He only really loves you and serves you because he's getting something out of it. If you took that away, he'd curse you to your face. And then God and Satan enter a wager and God says, I actually think you're wrong about that. Satan says, all right, we'll take your blessing away and let's test him and let's see what happens. And it goes from there. And what, what we're seeing here and how we're counseled to read it is not to think about this as something that literally happened as a conversation between God and Job, because that's really hard theology to wrestle with, but to treat it as poetry. So I'm going to pause so I don't get lost in the sauce and say, I'm going to ask the two of you, what does that evoke in you to read this as poetry and not, let's say not read it as something that literally happened? How's that land?

[B]

I mean, I think I just feel way less resistance. It's like, okay, then there's something here that is useful and I'm not totally distracted by this awful idea that some sort of all loving God could do something so flippant and cause so much suffering to be right. It just, it is in conflict with everything I believe about God.

[D]

Yeah, yeah, I agree with that. I think the, you know, the conversation as it's presented between God and Satan is particularly disturbing if you were to, if you were to take that literally. So like, removing that pressure is, is definitely helpful. However, I would say that the rest, the, the way the rest of the story unfolds still echoes real life in the sense that, you know, very bad things do tend to happen. Yeah. To everyone, sort of, regardless of their levels of personal righteousness. In other words, I'm still left facing the problem of evil. And Job really illustrates that for me. Yeah, you know, I, it's unclear to me again, this is just like, this is just the problem, you know, but like, why an all powerful, all loving and good God could allow for deep, deep suffering. Yeah. And I will say too, in our tradition we grapple with that often by saying, well, it's all about agency. Like agency is foundational to Mormonism or rather to Latter Day Saint ism. And yet There are many. You know, there is a lot of suffering that doesn't seem to have its root in personal agency. That seems to be, you know, there are so many examples. I don't even need to. To list them, you know, but especially thinking about, you know, children suffering, you know, diseases and tragedies of various kinds that seem to be accidental or happenstance, it's like, why, you know, why. Why would God let this happen? I, I. Reading it as poetry doesn't quite help me yet there.

[C]

It's an interesting thing. So you, you, you, y' all know this. I'm. I am not a theologian. I am what's called a mythologist. My, My. My doctoral degrees are in depth psychology and, and mythological studies. And so what that means is when I read a sacred story, I read it through a mythological lens more than anything. And, and this, this language trips a lot of people up. Because when you talk about, like, reading the Bible as a myth, what a lot of people think you're saying is, oh, you're reading it is something that's not true, and that is the popular version of what a myth is. A myth is an untruth. But, but the actual meaning of myth is it's a shared, collective sacred story. And one of the things that I believe, and a lot of the folks who trained me believe, is that when we look at something like scripture, a guiding sacred story, right, that is there to show us how to live our lives, to bring us closer to God. And again, as. As a person who lives inside, you know, a very Christian universe, a big universe nonetheless, but a very Christian universe, this is especially sacred to me when I read the Bible. But when you look at a story in that way, the first thing you need to remember is when we look at a sacred story, it is far more important that we're reading a story that can live inside our soul and that our soul can live inside of, then we are reading a story that can live inside of history. Okay? And so kind of, Tim, you said it. When we think about this, this is a story that lives inside our soul and then invites our soul to live inside of us. When we read Job, it's the quintessential example of a story that is more true than something that happened one historical time to one historical person. And I'm not saying that it couldn't have happened historically, but I'm saying it's bigger than one historical moment. And for anyone who has pushback on that, I just want to pause for a second and say, I think it takes more Faith. And a bigger faith to believe in it this way than it does to believe that this happened to one person, one time, and we wrote it down, which. Which again, it might have. So as soon as we. As soon as we worry less about the historical accuracy of the story, right, the literalism, and then we start to think about how does this story live inside of us and how do we live inside it? Let's start here. Has something ever happened to you, Tim and Aubry, or anyone listening that felt so cruel, so targeted, or so chaotic that it felt like God or the gods were playing with you? If you are honest, deep down, and I know a lot of us are like, oh, God, I would never think that because of my great faith. But look, y' all know my story, right? Like, I. I suffered a series of losses, including part of my faith, my spiritual community. While I was recovering and exploring and interrogating those losses, I lost my brother to suicide. And on the six month anniversary of losing my brother, I lost my mom to a brain tumor. I've talked about it a lot, but I was five and a half months into grieving my brother when I got a call that my mom had a headache. And three weeks later, she was gone. That is a moment in time that feels like the gods are playing with you, right? I felt like a plaything of the divine. And I remember saying to God when I walked into my mom's hospital room and I saw her and I talked to her like a few days before and she was fine. And I walked into her hospital room and they'd shaved her head and she had a tube in her skull to drain fluid because they were trying to keep her alive and they were trying to keep her conscious long enough to say goodbye to us, right? And I walked into the room, I'd gotten The call around 6:00am, I think, in the morning. And it took me longer than I wanted it to because I was living far away to get to her. And so by the time I got there, she was barely conscious

[D]

and she

[C]

was fighting to keep her eyes open. And we had our last conversation as I walked in the room and I said, I love you, Mom. And she fought to get the words out and she said, I love you, Mike. And I said, I'm glad you're my mom. And she fought to get the words out and she said, I'm glad you're my son.

[B]

Right?

[C]

It's the last conversation we ever had because she immediately lost consciousness. And then we were there for three weeks to take care of her. And in that moment, I prayed the most honest prayer of my life. And I was kind of going through a whole faith thing, so God and I were in a very particular relationship at the time. And I said, you know what, God? I'm about to lose my mother five months after I lost my brother. I don't have a thing to say to you right now. Could not believe that you could do this to me. And also, I cannot do this without you. And I'm gonna need your help, even though I'm so mad. That is the energy of the Book of Job. And so if reading that story of God and the devil having that conversation offends you, great. If reading that story fascinates you, great. If reading that story confounds you, great. It's doing its job because it's bringing you inside of what that moment feels like. And it's bigger than a simple story or a simple theology. Sorry, that's a big answer. But I'm telling you how the story lives inside of me and how I live inside of this story. How's that land?

[B]

I mean, this is. That just, like, hits straight in the heart. Yeah. Can we talk about. You said something really interesting about the five stages of grief.

[A]

And.

[B]

And I feel that with you. Like, imagining you with your mom in this, like, already tender season after losing your brother. And I know that feeling of anger.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

But I would love for you to talk about bargaining specifically, because that's something that comes up in Job, and it's the one I kind of skip over because I'm not sure I've ever. I'm not sure I've ever really been able to see deeply what that looks like. I like. It feels like the one that's a little bit fuzzy. So I move on. I know what anger feels like.

[C]

Yeah.

[B]

And I know what sadness feels like. I know what denial feels like. But bargaining, it feels a little bit tricky.

[C]

Yeah. So, okay, so let's. Let's. Let's set the table on Job and the five stages of grief. And then. And then we'll go into it and talk about it. So first and foremost, folks, I'm sure everybody listening has read the story. But for those of you who haven't, God and the devil engaged this bargain. God. Let me. Let me not say the devil. Let me say God and the accuser, because that's really, really important. It's God and Satan. And Satan literally means the accuser. And we'll come back to this. The energy of accusation drives this entire story. And we're going to come back to that in a minute. Then what happens is Job systematically loses everything. In one of the most devastating passages in Scripture, someone runs in to tell Job. And I'm going to get the details wrong, but this is the gist of it. Like, oh, my God, we were out shepherding your flocks, and raiders came in and they killed everyone, and they stole all the sheep. And I alone escaped to tell you. And then it says, while he was still speaking, someone else ran in and says, we were hurting your camels. And raiders came in and they murdered everyone and stole all the camels. And I alone escaped to tell you. And then someone says, while he was still speaking, someone else runs in and says, your children were having a party. All your children were in one place celebrating together. Let's assume they were having a birthday party and a wind and an earthquake came in and the house collapsed and killed everyone. And I alone escaped to tell you. And Job collapses, right? Job is devastated, and he tears his clothes. And you absolutely should read the story because it's amazing. Job doesn't curse God, but. But is absolutely devastated. And the story goes on. Read it. It's great. In the end, it results in Job. Job's body breaks out in boils and sores, right? And there's. And there's God and the devil play a part in that. But I'm also a certified grief and trauma counselor. And the one thing I know is when we experience extreme loss, our bodies react to that, right? In all kinds of crazy ways. So this makes so much sense. And within just a short amount of time, Job is sitting in the dust and the ashes, devastated over everything that's happened. And it tells us that three of Job's friends hear about it, and they come to comfort Job. And as they approach him, they look at him, and they don't even recognize him because he's covered in sores. And this friend that they knew, who was wealthy but kind and generous and influential and a teacher and a leader among his community, is there, shattered, in grief, wracked with disease. They don't even recognize him. And they tear their clothes and they wail. And then they sit down together. And for days, no one says a word because they're just there in grief. That's how they set the table for this story. And again, the thing about that story, it's so big. Some people have experienced that. I've heard stories, and I live stories of people who just. So many things go wrong at the same time. It feels like the universe is out to get you, right? And it shakes our faith and we struggle with it. Other people, like, we all know loss. So if you haven't had that kind of devastating, targeted moment, perhaps you've lost a relationship or you've lost faith or you've lost connection to something that's life giving. That's still your way into that story, and that's that story's way into you. And when that happens, what we find ourselves in is in profound grief, Right? Whether we've lost our family, a relationship, a cherished pet, a cherished friend, or our faith, we are going into deep, deep grief. Pause right there and I'll tell you about the five stages of grief in a moment. But that's a lot of talking for me. How's that land for the two of you? And then we'll talk about the five stages of grief and how they can help us navigate that.

[D]

I love that. I mean, you're including all kinds of things in. In the definition of grief. Even, you know, even people sometimes question the legitimacy of a faith crisis. But for many people, it can feel like a crisis. It can feel. And I love that you're sort of validating that. That feeling, you know, of a faith deconstruction. It can lead to real. Lead to real grief.

[C]

100. We talked about this in our last episode. You know, I always say we don't get into heavily this right now, but like, in the way that our psychology is structured, you know, our personal gps, our guidance system is our ideas about God, our ideas about people, and our ideas about ourself. And if any one of those takes a hit, all three suffer together. If I lose faith in myself, it's going to change the way I think about God and people. If I lose faith in God or the people who speak for God. Right. It is going to change the way I think about myself and so on and so forth.

[D]

Oh, gps. I see.

[C]

Yeah, yeah.

[D]

Did you come up with that?

[C]

Yes, I did. Oh, my gosh. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So, so. And there's so many ways that we experience grief. Anybody who wants to read more about this should check out the book the Wild Edge of Sorrow, I think by Francis Weller. It's just absolutely awesome. But he talks about five gates of grief. I'm not going to remember what they are, but it's something like, obviously the death of a loved one, the realization that everything we love, at some point we're going to lose the idea that, you know, certain dreams and things we hope for are not going to happen. Right. Our unlived lives require A lot of grief on our part, the hurt of the world, the pain and the suffering around us, and so on and so forth. We experience this in so many different ways, and all of it, all of it asks us to reassess our guidance system, our faith, the principles and the practices that help us navigate this world. So one of the great experts in how we Grieve is Dr. Elizabeth Kubler Ross. And she came up with what. What is commonly known as the five stages of grief, and they are denial or overwhelm. Right. Anger.

[B]

Wow. Are you saying those are the same?

[C]

For me, I think so. I think a lot of what we think of as denial is actually overwhelm.

[B]

Yes.

[C]

Right. So. So denial and dissociation in our culture get a bad rap because we always assume it's like, I'm just not going to deal with this. But the truth is, if something is beyond your capacity, you genuinely can't hold it or can't handle it. And we are not a culture that is taught how to grief, how to grieve. Grief is the hard work of keeping our hearts open so that we can continue to love. Right? That is what grief is. Grief is the hard work of keeping our hearts open. And it's really, really hard. And I think even when we think about how we're sometimes immune to the suffering of the people right around us, our neighbors and folks in front of us, folks that we see on the news, we are kind of in denial about their suffering. For a lot of folks, it's because they genuinely don't have the capacity to handle that, to deal with the grief. And so. So that's the first stage is denial or overwhelm. We just can't even deal with it. So we don't. From there, she said a lot of people move into anger that it's happening. And this makes sense. So many of us have been there, something bad happens, and you get angry. And then she said, we then move into bargaining, from bargaining to depression or sadness or deep sorrow, and then finally to acceptance. It's important to clarify that when Dr. Kubler Ross first identified these stages, she was working with people who were dying. So these were first stages identified for people who were dealing with their own upcoming death. So at first, I can't even deal with this. It's too big. Then I'm so angry that this is happening to me. And then I get into bargaining. And bargaining is when I imagine all the scenarios where it could be different. So I'm like, well, what if. What if I just eat really, really Healthy. And I try this alternative treatment. And again, that's great. Sometimes that stuff works. What if I pray really, really hard, you know, and I just tell God, you know what? I'm going to go to church every single day for the rest of my life if you let me not die, and so on and so forth. That's where bargaining is. And what I think bargaining often is, is it's. It's trying on a story, it's trying on strategies and stories to cope with things. Then you go into deep sadness, and then you go into. Eventually you get to acceptance. And again, folks, it's not always this linear. And point of fact, it's often not. But these are still five really helpful ways to think about how we grieve. The five stages of grief then got adapted usefully to everyone who's suffered a loss. We're like, oh, it's not just people who are facing death. It's also people who are dealing with the death of a loved one or the loss of something precious to them, like a job or a community or a belief system. Same thing. Initially, it's overwhelm or denial. Then we get into anger, remember that we're going to come back to that one. Then we get into bargaining. And bargaining, to me, is in a situation. How could this have been differently? Right? How could this have gone differently? Oh, my gosh, what if. What if my mom had gotten CAT scans every month, right? What if we hadn't thought that the headaches that she was having were just deep grief over having lost a son? What if my mom left, you know, ate less artificial sweetener, she might not have gotten cancer. The crazy ideas that you go to try to make sense of something. For me, bargaining is trying to find a story that we can live inside of. It's trying on different ideas and different scenarios to try to make sense and make meaning. And then we get into deep sadness and eventually acceptance, which is. Which is what lets us move forward. The thing about the Book of Job is the Book of Job is a lot of what happens right there inside the bargaining stage. Honestly, for those of you who are theological nerds, do you all know the term theodicy? Very.

[B]

I think it's come up a few times on the podcast, but I would explain.

[C]

Sure. Theodicy is the theological question of if God is good, why do bad things happen? It's that simple. Why would God let bad things happen? I think most Christian theodicy is just the bargaining stage of grief. Were just like, why is this happening? Give me a story That I can live with. Yeah, right.

[D]

Yep.

[C]

That gives me a sense of safety or control. And so now we're going to get into, like, going past Kubler Ross to, like, my personal bias is that in that bargaining stage, when we've lost something, a person, a community, a belief, we initially, there's a strong sense of devastation. We see this in Job when he is just sitting there, he can't even say anything. Right. I believe I definitely see this in Job. And I think what happens to a lot of us is we move from devastation to accusation. And accusation is when that energy of anger comes in and we need someone or something to blame. When I am in the energy of accusation, I'm going to blame God. I'm going to blame myself. I'm going to blame the church that failed me or didn't give me enough to work with, the theology that was too weak to meet my lived experience. I'm going to blame anyone or anything I can. But I need there to be a responsible party, and I need there to be a culprit, even if it's me. That's the energy of accusation. We need there to be a reason, and we need there to be someone who's responsible. It's a way that we protect ourselves from suffering and the fear of it. If we stay with that, we move, I think, from accusation into interrogation. And that is when we. We step a little bit out of the anger and we're willing to go, okay, what's really happening here? Like, what. What is actually going on? And we interrogate our accusation, too. Like, okay, is this. Is this reasonable? Is this realistic? What is happening? Why is this happening? What is happening inside me? What is happening inside the world, y'? All. I think sacred questions are one of the most profound spiritual practices that are available to us. And I do think this is sacred work. When we get into the interrogation, what are my real questions? What am I asking of God and the universe and myself so that I can deal with this? And whenever you ask a sacred question, you then have to go, and what is being asked of me? And we can talk about these three stages if you want, or we can move on. And then the last one is eventually, if you stay with interrogation, you get to imagination, accusation, to interrogation, to imagination. And imagination is when you are suddenly open to new possibilities. So if interrogate, you know, I'm in accusation. I'm like, oh, my God. My faith system is terrible. It doesn't actually meet the realities of suffering. And then an interrogation, you're like, all right, well, Is that true? And is. Do I. Do I need bigger systems? Is this inefficient? Is the reason that I've been given for suffering just not good enough and not helpful? And then finally you get into imagination, where it's like, what new place could this take me to? What new possibilities does this open? How can I live more expansively? And I think that then. Then, you know, moves us towards kind of acceptance. And you see that in job. Right. Especially, you know, it starts with that accusation. That's a lot of words for me. Again, so I'm going to pause. What do you think? Let me.

[D]

Yeah. Thank you. That's. That's so good. I think the. The thing that's occurring to me is about the dichotomy between questions and answers. So, like, we have interrogation and we have imagination, we have bargaining and we have acceptance. Do acceptance and imagination imply that you've gotten the answers to your sacred questions? And this comes up. This comes up a lot. I think Faith Matters over the years has presented a lot more questions that we have than we have answers. And I think that has. That's not always very satisfying to people. And actually there was a very recent YouTube comment that I saw that it's been sort of, like, echoing in my head on one of our videos that sort of, like, explained, you know, about our organization and those things, and it says, I pulled this up. Questions are good, but not endlessly after the answer has been clearly given. And so there's a. There's a. There's a revealing of a worldview, There's. In which questions exist in service of answers, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

And I want to. I want to ask you about that.

[C]

You know, I mean, your show's called Faith Matters, Right. So a playful question I could ask the two of you is, do you think faith lives in the realm of questions or answers?

[D]

That's been my. Yeah, that's been. That's been my transition, you know.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

For a long time, for me, it was faith and answers were really almost one in the same.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, that's. Our shared teacher, Father Richard Rohr, says that a lot of people think that doubt is the opposite of faith and that in point of fact, certainty is the opposite of faith. If you have certainty, you don't need faith. Right.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah,

[C]

it's a good question. You know, I. My great teacher, Origin of Alexandria, says that when we hit to the. We hit the deepest matters of the spiritual life, they call for discussion, not definition. And I say exploration, not explanation. I think there is a point that we reach in the spiritual life where the quest really is in the questions, you know, and I, and I think this is a very Christian idea. For what it's worth. Jesus asks a lot of questions. He tells us to ask and keep on asking, seek and keep on seeking, knock and keep on knocking. Right. And so

[A]

for.

[C]

Well, I'll say this. In my experience, very often the answer to a deep question is a better question, you know, so. And again, origin. My great teacher says that curiosity is, is a gift from God that's implanted in our heart. He describes it as a form of love, a form of being in love with our experience, is engaging it with curiosity. And, and it's also, it's also an aspect of grieving when, when things are hard and difficult. So yeah, I.

[D]

Think, let me just, let me just add a little bit to the question. What might the book of Job have to say about, about this? I mean much of the book really exists in those, in those questions. Does Job, and maybe we could like close the loop on this, on the story a little bit here. But like, does Job get answers? You know, God eventually does, does speak to Job.

[C]

Yeah. So first let me, let's do some theological razzle dazzle in the book of Job to use a, some more nerd, nerd talk. The only answer to the Odyssey is theophany. Theodicy is, is $5 theological language for wrestling with the question, if God is good, why do bad things happen? Theophany is $5 theological, theological language for the fact, for the description of God shows up. And so in the biblical book of Job, the only answer given to Job's suffering is that God shows up and meets Job in Job's suffering. Suffering. So I just talked about, for me, I like the roadmap of, you know, devastation leads to accusation, which leads to interrogation, which leads to imagination. Let's walk through that quickly. In the story, Job's friends come and sit with Job for days. It's the best thing they do in the story is they just sit there in the deep silence of grief together. And after, I like the better part of a week of no one talking, right. Job opens his mouth and the first thing he says is, if we could blot out the day that I was born, it would be better if I was never alive than to experience this. Why would God let us exist only to suffer so much? Right? That's a very honest question. Job asks a very, very honest question. What happens is Job's three friends, one at a time, instead of offering him comfort or Validating the fact that he feels this way. They start to debate him. And you've got like a great cast of characters. You've got like the one guy who's very woo woo and philosophical and he's like, Job, don't lose your faith. I'm going to tell you something that a spirit came and told me. And like, God's got a plan and it's mystery. We just need to trust it. And then Job basically says, no, not good enough. I need more than that. Like, my suffering is so great. And in folks who you're reading this together, kindly, the reader doesn't have you going into all these vicious accusations that are, that are sort of leveled against Job. But it is worth going and reading them at some point because there are things that sound familiar for those of us who've spent a long time in religious community. You know, then you have another character who's like, Job, you just need to trust, you know, the wisdom of the ages, which is like, you just need to trust the scripture and have faith. And then the third character is a, is a real jerk. He gets really, really mean. He's very dogmatic and he's very vicious. And. And then they get around to being like, Job, if this happens, somebody send. And it was probably your kids and it might have been you. And you better get right with God and you better pray for help, you better pray for forgiveness or something worse is going to happen. And they viciously, viciously blame him because they cannot handle his doubt, suffering, grief, and the very hard questions that he keeps asking. And he's like, why God? Why? And then a fourth character shows up and they're all just preaching and you're like, God, this is what religious people sound like. We do love to hear ourselves preach. And then God shows up at the end of the story and was, you know, something that's really fun is several of the characters refer to Job as a wind bag. Or they're like, your words are just like a endless wind that whips around. And then because God has a sense of humor when God shows up. God appears as a whirlwind and speaks to them from the whirlwind, which is a great way to mock the way that they were mocking Job. And. And then God gives Job this profound revelation of nature and he. And, and you know, there's this, this language. Where were you when I created the world? Where were you? You know, I'm, I'm riffing here, but like, where were you when I hung the stars in the heavens? Do you see how mountain goats climb to the top or eagles lay their nests. And a lot of people read that as God giving Job this giant smackdown where he's like, who are you to question me? I don't read it that way. I think God is showing Job a bigger world. He's showing him the beauty of the natural world. And the number one thing that God is doing is showing up. And so what you see in that is a few really interesting things. For years I wrestled with the story and I'm like, why does God not answer Job right away? And then one day I realized, oh, my God, God is the only character in the story who shuts up long enough to let Job get all his pain out and say everything that he needs to say, which is actually very kind. God shows up and. And after this, says to Job's friends, like, hey, I'm very disappointed in you. You didn't speak the truth like my servant Job did. And God says that Job, who asked all these hard questions, is the only character that told the truth. So let's just pause for a minute and remember that when we see someone who's suffering and seeming to be losing their faith and we feel like it's our job to defend God or defend scripture or defend the church, that God is actually on the side of the suffering person in their honest questions, which is something a lot of us don't always think about.

[B]

Can I, can we. Don't forget what you're going to say, but can I, can we? I asked you a little bit about that because this has been. This keeps coming up these last few minutes for me when we've talked about faith development before. I feel like there is sort of this assumption that, like, the best, the. The best way to do every stage is just like, thoroughly, like, do it. Like, don't resist it. Just like, get whatever that, whatever that season is asking of you. Like, let it just, like, live completely. And don't resist realizing that's not. I. I'm realizing I have questions about that when it comes to grief. Like, I want to get out of the anger stage, like the accusation stage. And I want, and I want. I can feel how I minimize that self, that in myself. And I definitely feel an impulse to minimize it for other people. And it might have a pretty face. Like, it might look like, you know, optimism or, or gratitude and. But I think in some ways I'm, like, trying to hotwire this or like, jump start myself in a new, more comfortable place.

[D]

Yeah.

[B]

So I'm. And I'm not really sure. What. What you would say here. Like, do you need to do anger? Like, big anger all the way? And. And like, how do you know when Is it just natural that then you start moving into something that looks more like interrogation, you know, Because I'm afraid, and so I stay on the surface, and it just feels like spinning. I'm afraid to go all the way down, and so I'm kind of stuck.

[C]

Yeah. You know, I'll start with a. With a answer that comes from Christian scripture. Right. Somewhere it says, be angry and sin not. And so for folks who this language is helpful, if scripture can tell you to be angry and sin not, it means that anger is not a sin. So let's remember that. The second thing is there's a great. There's a really profound bit of wisdom in the passage that says, never let the sun set on your wrath. And what I hear a lot of people do with that one is they're like, don't go to bed angry. And my favorite version of that, like, you two are. Are married, you know, is like, you. You have a fight, and then it's like 11:30 at night, and you're like, we can't go to bed angry. So you're still fighting because you're gonna fix it before you go to sleep

[D]

while you're like the absolute worst version

[C]

of yourselves and you're exhausted. You should just take a nap. Right.

[A]

Right.

[C]

Don't let the sun go down on your wrath means don't let your anger become unconscious. Don't let it escape the light of awareness. There is no more dangerous anger than suppressed and denied anger. Wow. Be honest about your anger. If. If you don't have it in front of you, it's going to sneak up behind you. Right. The point is to feel your anger and do it responsibly, you know, and safely. Give full voice to it, give full vent to it in a way that is ideally not harming others. And listen to it. Anger is fuel for change. Okay, Anger, the. The great depth psychologist James Hillman says, you know, what is it? Something like if. If we're enraged, it's a sure sign that at least our soul is awake. And. And our teacher James Finley says anger is. Is a sign that a boundary has been crossed. Like, anger is always. It's information and it's fuel. So feel the anger. Let it take you somewhere, and then interrogate the anger. Be willing to not approach it with shame, but have an honest conversation with it. Like, what is this anger asking of me? What is it asking Me to see. What is it asking me to do? Why is it here? What old wounds is it connected to? We could unpack it a lot, but the short version is, yeah, feel the anger. And the paradox is I don't think Job ever gets an answer. And. But God shows up. God shows up, and God validates Job's questions and Job speaking. And for me, I think a lot of times in life, if we stay faithful to the deep questions, we shift from finding an answer to recognizing that those questions are also asking things of us.

[D]

Mike, can I ask you sort of on a personal level and feel free to decline.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

But, you know, you shared sort of the first part of your story, you know, your own personal theodicy.

[C]

Yeah.

[D]

Was that followed in some way for you and your story by some type of theophany?

[C]

Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. A series of them. My mom lost consciousness on the 11th of September, and I sat with her for three weeks till she passed in her hospital room. And

[D]

I.

[C]

My brother had died on the. Was it the 4th of April, I think. And when my brother died, his wife was pregnant. And so did I tell. Have I told this story?

[B]

Okay, you've told me, but I haven't heard this. Okay.

[D]

So,

[C]

yeah, I was. I remember very, very distinctly I was sitting with my mom in her hospital room, and I was. I was praying the Jesus prayer. That's a whole other conversation we could have some time about. I didn't know what to do. And I had run across this practice, and they're like, this is the oldest contemplative practice in the Christian world, and it's like 1800 years old, maybe. And I was like, all right, I gotta. I gotta do something Christian at this point to.

[D]

To.

[C]

To be with my mom and also, you know, navigate this. And. And God and I were having this rolling conversation where I was like, I can't believe you right now, and I can't do this without you. And so I'm sitting there in this one particular day, and I'm sitting next to my mom, and she's not conscious. She can't talk, but her eyes are a little bit open. And I have my hand tucked into her hand, and she was squeezing it, you know, and. And I was trying to make eye contact with her because her eyes were just open a little bit. And every now and then I'd catch her eyes, and we would. We would lock in together. And I. And I. She couldn't respond. But I kept telling myself, she knows I'm here. She can see me. She knows I'M her son. She knows that I love her. She knows that I'm going to stay with her through this. And then. And then at one point, she started to cough or something, and the machine started to beep, and a nurse ran over, was, like, bending over her to make sure that she was okay. And it was just this very visceral moment. And not long after that, we got a phone call. And so I kissed her, and I was like, I love you. I'm going to be back. And my sister and I jumped in a car, and we. We left this hospital that we'd been staying in for days and days. We drove across town to another hospital, went upstairs, and there's my brother's widow, and she's holding this newborn baby, which is my brother's daughter. And I remember I, like, leaned over, and you know that, like, the crystal clear depth of a newborn baby's eyes, right? Like, you can see the cosmos in them. And I remember I was, like, looking her in the eye, and I was like, oh, my God. And I put my finger in her hand, and her tiny little hand closed on my finger just the way my mom's hand had closed around my hand. And I said, she knows it's me, and even though her dad's not here, she knows I'm her Uncle Mike, and I love her so much, and she's gonna be surrounded by love. And she, like, sneezed or something. And there was a nurse right there, and the nurse bent over her to do something, make sure she was. I don't. Make sure she was okay in the same way that the nurse had bent over my mom like an hour before. And I don't know what to tell you, but, like, the cosmos cracked open. There was something about the wheel of life and death and all of it happen, and I don't know what to say about it, except what Job said in the story when he says, I talked about things I didn't know about, but now my eyes have seen. And so I put my hand over my mouth, and I say nothing. And if you read that story not knowing it, you're like, wow, God just gave Job a beat down. And he's like, all right, I'll stop talking. If you read that story from the experience, you know, he has just received something like, that's the greatest sign of mystical enlightenment. When you're like, I'm just gonna stop talking. Yeah. And. And that was the first of many ongoing theophanies where I don't. I don't. I think the best answer that I've been given is that grief is the price of love. And it's a price worth paying. Right. I think that's what Jesus taught me on the cross is grief is worth. It's a price worth paying for love, and it's worth staying faithful to the question, which, again, is still a question. The first time Richard Rohr and I had a deep conversation, I was like, I believe you that everything belongs. But if everything belongs, why has it got to hurt so bad that I'd like to know that? So sometimes a good question, you know, it lives inside of us, and then we live inside the question.

[B]

Yeah.

[C]

Sacred question, sacred story. And, and staying faithful to that question often guides our life path. To say it. Anyway, I digress. That's a lot. Thank you.

[B]

Well, I. I'd actually love to go there. I mean, I think that for a long time, questions felt so threatening. I've been converted to this idea that there I can feel the way they expand me, you know, and lead me to whatever the next thing is, and so they don't feel threatening. But I love this idea that sacred questions could be part of a more intentional spiritual practice. So I'd love for you to. To. To start wrapping up there. Like, what. What does that look like for you? What could it look like for us?

[C]

Yeah, you know, I love a good question. And, and I'll say this. You know, my great teacher Origin said, curiosity is a gift given to us by God. I. I have. I really do believe, like, you know, my whole healer with a thousand faces thing, I think. I think our wounds very often set us out on our wandering, and they give us our life path if we are faithful to them, even our hardships. And I think they give us our wondering. I think they give us the questions that stay with us.

[D]

So.

[C]

And I think the quest is in the questions. Once a week, I sit down for an hour or two with a journal and I ask myself, what are the questions that are being asked in my life this week? Right. And I write it out and, and then I ask myself, and what are those questions asking of me? I think everybody at least once in their life should read the book Man's Search for Meaning by Viktor Frankl. He was a psychologist who survived the Holocaust. And he has this quote that haunts me. And I think about it, when I think about sacred questions. He says he talks about people in the concentration camp. You want to talk about a theodicy, right? Folks whose life has been stripped away from them and they've been sent somewhere for their extermination. And Frankl quotes Nietzsche and says, if you've got a why to live for, you can deal with any how, because the last of the great human freedoms is getting to choose how you face the circumstances that show up. But then he says this thing that really hits me deeply. He says, it didn't really matter what we expected from life, but rather what life expected from us. We needed to stop asking about the meaning of life and instead to think of ourselves as those who were being questioned by life daily and hourly. Our answer must consist then, not in talk and meditation, but in right action and right conduct. Right. Show up for your life and the questions that it has for you. Life ultimately means taking responsibility to find the right answer to its problems and it fulfill the tasks which it constantly sets for each individual. Yeah, it's sacred work to wrestle with a question. And so when you find yourself grieving a loss and questions emerge from that, when you find yourself let down by a belief system or a faith tradition, inside of that, there are questions that don't have answers. When you see those questions as an invitation, move from accusation to interrogation. Embrace the questions. Let there be a quest in the questions. Let them take you somewhere. We don't have time to unpack this, but in the early Christian teaching on seasons of the spiritual life, going through a season where you asked hard questions and stayed faithful to those questions and let them move you into a more flexible and expansive of faith was one of the highest forms of growth. It wasn't a loss of faith, it was a deepening of faith. And y' all have explored this very well and in depth in your podcast. But being faithful to the question is a great way to live your life and let it take you where it's going to go. And everybody, everybody loves to quote the, you know, the Rilco want, like live the questions. Rilke says, right, I'd love to beg you as well as I can to have patience with everything unresolved in your heart and try to love the questions themselves as if they were locked rooms or books written in a very foreign language. Don't search for the answers which could not be given to you now because you would not yet be able to live them. The point is to live everything, live the questions now. Perhaps then someday far in the future, you will gradually, without even noticing it, live your way into the answer. Perhaps you do carry within you the possibility of creating informing as an especially blessed and pure way of living. Train yourself for that. But take whatever comes with great trust and as Long as it comes out of your will, out of some need of your innermost self, then take it upon yourself. But live the questions. It's so interesting to me. In the book of Job, God doesn't ever defend God's self, right? Like, not God doesn't need to be defended. If God is real, God's gonna be fine, right? We're so afraid of our questions and we're more afraid of other people's questioning. But what if questioning is the great quest? What if that's what the spiritual life is? What. What if encountering your faith, tradition and being faithful to the questions it brings you to are not betraying the tradition, but actually letting it do its real work on you?

[B]

Wow, there was a quote you've shared with us before. Maybe, maybe it was in a previous episode from Young about, like, family karma and the questions, like, getting past. Like, I love the idea that it could also be our responsibility to. To answer the next question that maybe our parents handed us or our forefathers and mothers.

[C]

Here's. Here's one of my favorites, Carl Jung. I feel very strongly that I'm under the influence of things or questions which were left incomplete and unanswered by my parents and grandparents and more distant ancestors. It often seems as if there were an impersonal karma within a family which is passed on from parents to children. It has always seemed to me that I had to answer questions which fate had posed to my forefathers, which had not yet been answered, or as if I had to complete or perhaps continue things which previous ages had left unfinished friends. You know, what's crazy to me is when we are in the Christian imagination, we are so scared of questions that open us up to imagine new possibilities. And yet we're given a tradition where you have Job, who has this interaction with God in a particular way, who then in the timeline is followed by Abraham, who has a different interaction that then gets passed on and develops and changes and changes and evolves and evolves and evolves until we get to Jesus, who then passes it on to the apostles, who pass it on to the. To the teachers in the early church, right? Latter Day Saints. You then have a further revelation which is pointing back to older things. It is constantly outgrowing what came before. Why are we so afraid to be faithful to the questions, even the hard questions that feel like doubt and loss, that ask us to imagine new possibilities and step into new containers and expressions? A friend of mine once told me that everything that is incomplete in our teachers and in our traditions is our work to do in the world.

[B]

Wow.

[C]

So when you are wrestling with all the ways that what you have been given in a faith tradition or a scripture or sacred story or whatever is. Cannot actually meet the lived experience of your life, fine. Live the accusation of being angry and disappointed. But get to interrogation and ask, what is this asking of me? Me? Where does this want me to go? Where can I take this? Where can I dream this forward? And be willing to step into imagination because, you know, not. Not to make light of what it is to struggle with a crisis of faith, but, you know, then the adventure begins.

[D]

So good.

[B]

Thank you so much. Yeah, I. I feel this way after every conversation, but this was especially resonant. Thank you so much for doing this.

[C]

Well, let me give you one. Let me give you one piece before I sign off. And I. Because I want to be faithful to what I see happening in the book of Job. I do think the goal is to get to imagination and open our heart to new possibilities and to recognize that God meets us there. But I would never want to be one of Job's comforters. When someone is in the devastation of deep loss and wrestling with hard questions that are breaking their heart, the best thing that we can do for that person is just to be with them and to validate their honest experience and not feel that we need to give them an answer. When we are going through that ourselves, it starts with being faithful to our experience and our questions and not judging ourselves. Right. We don't need to get to an answer. We need to stay faithful to our awakened heart, as Jim Finley says. Anyway, thanks. Always a gift to get to do this with y'.

[D]

All.

[B]

Love that so much.

[D]

Beautiful.

[B]

Thank you so much, Mike.

[D]

Thank you, Mike.

[C]

Yeah, yeah, my pleasure.

[A]

All right, thanks so much for listening. We really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Mike Petro. If you'd like to hear more from him, be sure to check out his podcast, the Healer with a Thousand Faces, wherever you listen to podcasts. And if you'd like to continue the conversation in person, Mike will be joining us this September at Restore Connect. You can get [e-mail] restore and learn more about this year's new format. There's no main stage this year, so you'll be able to build your own experience, choosing from a variety of more intimate and interactive conversations. And we would love to see you there. Thanks again for listening.