Let's Talk About Money, with Carl Richards

Summary

Faith Matters Podcast
Episode: Let’s Talk About Money, with Carl Richards
Date: December 28, 2025

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Episode Overview

This episode of Faith Matters features Carl Richards, a renowned financial planner and author, for a deep, vulnerable exploration of money’s often hidden role in our spiritual and emotional lives. Challenging the idea that money should sit on the periphery of faith, Carl argues that our relationship to money serves as a profound mirror of our true values—and that grappling honestly with money can be a pathway to deeper authenticity, love, and meaning. The conversation covers money shame and childhood wounds, cultural and religious messaging, the value of intentional spending, and how open conversation can bring healing and connection.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

1. Why Money Sits at the Center of Our Spiritual Lives

• Money as a Mirror of Values

  • "The checkbook and the calendar never lie." ([02:26], Carl Richards)
  • Carl argues that while we may state our values, our real values are revealed by how we spend our time, energy, attention, and money.
  • "I actually think it’s the primary question of our spiritual lives." ([03:56], Carl Richards)

• Money's Natural State: Flow, Not Stagnation

  • Money should be viewed as currency—constantly flowing, a form of capital we allocate. Stagnation can create problems both practically and spiritually.

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2. Guilt, Shame, and the "Behavior Gap"

• The Emotion of Misalignment

  • Interviewer expresses guilt over misalignment between stated values and actual behavior ([04:10]).
  • Carl shares his own story: using RescueTime software, he discovers large “gaps” between his stated values (e.g., family time) and actual behaviors (time on sports/news sites), leading to shame and guilt ([04:43]–[07:16]).

• Moving From Shame to Practice

  • Embrace the gap as diagnostic, not damning. Treat realignment as a practice, “like anything we’re not good at—give ourselves grace and just practice.” ([07:17], Carl Richards)
  • Recognize and metabolize guilt, but avoid letting it solidify into shame.

  “What we have to stop doing is running from that gap. And what's an interesting question is: who do you have in your life that has permission to enter that gap with you?” ([07:49], Carl Richards)

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3. Early Money Memories and Emotional Conditioning

• How Childhood Experiences Shape Money Emotions

  • Through guided self-reflection, Tim recalls an early memory of feeling guilt about using "too much milk" at a friend's house who said her family was poor ([10:53]).
  • Carl shares: “The reason I think the feeling in the body is so important is if we can start paying attention to that, it will tell us something's going on long before our heads will catch up.” ([12:18])

• Stories Passed Down & Bodily Awareness

  • Carl reflects on his own irrational anxiety checking the mailbox, which traced back to his father's past IRS trouble—often we inherit or absorb money anxiety without recognizing it ([13:23]–[15:38]).

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4. Cultural, Religious, and Family Messaging About Money

• The Latter-day Saint Context

  • The wrestle: Scriptures that both warn against wealth (e.g., “easier for a camel…”) and promise prosperity for the faithful ([20:12]).
  • Carl’s take: "We seem to have lost the plot… If we follow what all the wisdom traditions point out, the plot is love. And so anything that gets in our way is a distraction." ([21:58], Carl Richards)

• Worth, Wealth, and Spiritual Status

  • The tension between abundance and humility in LDS culture. Wealth is often (mis)interpreted as righteousness, leading to pressure and comparison ([29:05]–[30:38], Carl Richards).
  • “My value in my community is related to my ability to make a difference, and that happens to be related to money. And if I just get my thinking right... we have this whole world of self help stuff that has really embedded that level of thinking.” ([29:13], Carl Richards)

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5. The Practice of Intentional Spending

• Redefining “World-Class” Spending

  • “The goal is you want to become the best spender on the planet… The way you'd be world class at spending is by aligning your spending with what's important to you.” ([40:24], Carl Richards)

• The “Spending Practice”

  • Take three seconds every time you spend money to simply notice it without judgment: “That’s interesting.” Not shame, not blame—just awareness.
  • Spend lavishly on what matters most; cut ruthlessly on what doesn’t ([42:59]–[43:24], Tim paraphrasing Carl).

  “Your most frequent interaction with money is spending. If every time you do, you feel bad, that’s not a relationship. So just start paying attention.” ([39:54]–[40:24], Carl Richards)
  “My favorite way of noticing is just–isn't that interesting?” ([41:22], Carl Richards)

• Spending as a Spiritual or Ethical Act

  • Citing Rabbi Stutman: every penny spent can be a religious or ethical act (e.g., supporting sustainable goods)—an expansive approach to tithing and “God’s money.” ([43:24], Tim recalls Rabbi Stutman)

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6. Abundance vs. Scarcity; The “Enough” Question

• Abundance as Perspective

  • Carl admits he’s lived in a scarcity mindset, always vigilant, and only recently has begun to unwind that anxiety ([47:34]).
  • “Abundance is a function of perspective… Maybe I should just focus on what I already have.” ([51:05], Carl Richards)
  • Warns against naïve “law of attraction” approaches; real abundance means appreciating sufficiency, not chasing ever more.

• Tithing and Gratitude

  • Tithing, at its best, becomes less a rule and more a recognition of abundance and gratitude: “If you’re going to do it, why not get full value?” ([52:30], Carl Richards)

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7. The Healing Power of Money Conversations

• Money as the “Last Taboo”

  • “Money, politics, sex, and religion—three of them we talk about way too much, but money is the last taboo.” ([53:21], Carl Richards)
  • People are more willing to discuss intimate details of their bedroom than share salary or debt numbers.

• Vulnerability Creates Connection

  • Carl’s work has revealed how deeply grateful people are for a space to talk about money, even high-profile, successful guests ([58:08]).
  • Example: Carl had never discussed his wife’s early money experiences until 27 years into marriage; discovered his long-held perceptions were inaccurate ([58:22]).

  “If you start to feel like it’s a war, get back to conversation… Your values are not at war; they’re in conversation.” ([62:05]–[65:10], Carl Richards)

• Talking About Tension, Not Seeking to “Solve” It

  • In math, tension is necessary to support bridges; in families, it’s okay to live in tension around money decisions ([65:10]–[66:05]).
  • The “timeout rule”: Give permission for clumsy conversation and space to step away and return when emotions rise ([53:21], Carl Richards).

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Memorable Quotes and Moments

• On Values and Alignment:
  • "Who do you have in your life that has permission to enter that gap with you?” ([07:49], Carl Richards)
• On Spending and Anxiety:
  • “The answer to anxiety is not always to grip tighter. Sometimes it’s to just notice and align.” ([38:56], Tim/Carl paraphrased)
• On Childhood Money Wounds:
  • “If we can just get reconnected with source of capital and how we use it, I think it would go a long ways.” ([47:15], Carl Richards)
• On Cultural Pressure:
  • "We have placed money and work as the organizing principle of our lives." ([34:17], Carl Richards)
• On Conversation:
  • "Your values are not at war; they’re in conversation." ([62:05], Carl Richards)
• On Living Abundance:
  • “If somebody followed you around and put your life on Instagram, you’d be jealous!” ([48:22], Carl’s wife)
• On Tithing:
  • “If you’re going to do it, why not get full value?” ([52:30], Carl Richards)

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Notable Timestamps

• [02:26] – Money as a central, spiritual question and the "checkbook/calendar never lie" principle
• [04:43] – Carl’s RescueTime experiment and the “behavior gap” between stated and actual values
• [10:53] – Early money memory: guilt about using milk at a friend’s house
• [13:23] – Inherited anxiety and mailbox story
• [20:12] – Latter-day Saint scriptures and tension between wealth/prosperity
• [29:05] – Cultural associations between wealth and righteousness
• [38:56] – Aligning spending with values; letting go of control as anxiety management
• [40:24] – Becoming a “world class spender” through awareness, not restriction
• [43:24] – Every financial decision as a spiritual/ethical act
• [51:05] – Abundance as practice and a shift in perspective
• [53:21] – Money as the “last taboo”—the necessity of brave conversation
• [62:05] – “Your values are not at war, they’re in conversation.” Family story about money tension

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Overall Tone

The conversation is open, warm, and often playful, but remains deeply vulnerable and honest—marked by Carl’s gentle prodding, personal admissions, and a refusal to moralize or oversimplify. Carl and the hosts model the kind of courageous, compassionate dialogue about money that they encourage listeners to pursue.

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Summary for Listeners

This episode challenges listeners to look beyond budgets and savings accounts to the meaningful, human, often spiritual questions underlying money. You’ll come away with permission to investigate your own “money stories,” practical advice for aligning spending with values, and encouragement to brave the taboo of money conversations—with an eye toward both personal wholeness and deeper connection with loved ones.

Transcript

[Aubrey Chavez]

Wayfair issue 7 is almost ready to print and we can't wait for you to read it. It's all about the concept of trust. Trust in God, in ourselves and in our communities. And it centers women's wisdom and experience with trust, especially the trust in our individual relationship with heavenly parents that allow each of us to act with power and integrity in our own lives. Become a friend of Faith Matters or become a paid subscriber to wayfair magazine by March 31st to receive this beautiful

[Tim]

issue in the mail.

[Aubrey Chavez]

Links are in the show notes. Hey everybody, this is Aubrey Chavez from Faith Matters. Today we're bringing you a conversation with Carl Richards.

[Tim]

And we think that this one might

[Aubrey Chavez]

just change the way you think and feel about money. You may know Carl as the sketch guy from his decade long New York Times column where he offered disarmingly relatable insights about money using just cardstock and a sharpie. For Carl, money isn't just about spreadsheets and savings accounts. He says it's a mirror reflecting to us what we value most deeply. And for this reason, he believes that money sits at the center of our spiritual lives. In this conversation, Carl invites us to become what he calls world class spenders, not by spending more, but by spending more intentionally in ways that align with those deepest values. Carl is a certified financial planner and the best selling author of the Behavior Gap and you'd Money. And he hosts the 50 Fires podcast where he has frank, funny and sometimes difficult conversations about money with guests from all walks of life. Carl believes that money is the last taboo, the topic that we often still avoid even with those closest to us. But he has such a gift for helping us recognize the stories and the wounds that are shaping our efforts to be good stewards now. So whether you're thinking about end of year giving or hoping for a fresh start in the new year, we hope that this conversation helps you feel more grounded in your values and more empowered to live and give from that place. And now, here's Carl Richards.

[Interviewer 1]

Carl, thank you so much for being here.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah, honored. Super excited to have this conversation.

[Interviewer 1]

We're honored as well. Yeah. You have told us that when, when we were kind of going back and forth planning for this, you said that money plays a central role in our spiritual lives. And I was kind of fascinated by that, by that statement because to me, well, there's, we're going to get way into this. But like to me it's at least on the periphery, if not like completely separate in many ways from my, from my spiritual Life other than, like, the very specific entry points, like. Like tithing, you know? So for you to make the claim that it's central is. Fascinating claim. I think I'd love for you to talk through that.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah. There's this old saying that the checkbook and the calendar never lie. Right. And what that's pointing to is I sort of care deeply about what you tell me is important to you. But I'll tell you what's important to you if I could see how you spend your time and your money. And so I think money becomes this. I mean, to be honest, I'll just start with a disclaimer. I don't care about money. Right. I care about humans and how to live a meaningful life. And money just happens to be either a mirror or a portal into what we actually care about. Right. And we can argue all day long about whether that's a good thing or a bad thing, but it's reality right now, so it is. And I also think there's all this language around money. Like, we use this word, currency, Right. And I think of that as like. And cash flow. I think money's natural state is in flow. And so watching the way it flows through our lives and how we allocate it, like, you think of all these things. What's a balance sheet? Right. Like, that's just a reflection of what you've cared about. Right. It's a reflection of what you've invested in. And then you start to think about the return you get on any investment of time. I actually think there's four sources of capital, really. Money, energy, time, and attention. And I think we should be paying attention to all those. But those are sources of capital that we've been entrusted with to decide how to allocate. Right. And how you allocate that is a massive reflection on what you care about. So that's why I think it's. I think it's. I actually think it's the primary question of our spiritual lives.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah. Can I. Okay, let me. And Aubrey, there's so much for you to get into here. I know I'm like, I don't want to steal your thunder, but, like, the. What's interesting for me is, as you say that the emotion that is arising for me is guilt. Yeah. Because I'm imagining my calendar and I'm imagining my. My checkbook or whatever. Like, if I'm imagining some review of all my transactions.

[Carl Richards]

You know what a checkbook is?

[Interviewer 1]

Like, yeah, yeah.

[Carl Richards]

Yes, we'll start out with a checkbook.

[Interviewer 1]

But I think that what I might see is a pretty serious misalignment with my stated values.

[Carl Richards]

Can I tell you a story about that? Yeah. So this, I've told this story enough that I don't cry anymore. Right? But it was, I only know one word, like horrific experience for me. I wrote something about that in the Times column about the checkbook and the calendar, never lying. And the people from Rescue Time app that you can install on your computer that will tell you how you spend your time reached out and they're like, hey, we could help you with that. And so I said, you know what, let's try a little experiment. So I said, let's install it on my computer. And then I want to forget about it. Don't tell me it's there. I want to forget about it. First I'm going to make some claims about how I spend my time. So I'll make some stated preferences and then what you're going to give me is revealed preferences, which revealed preferences have a lot more power. So I said, you know, like, look, I never check email after 5 because the kids are home. Why would I possibly do that? I don't look at it on the weekend. I care about sports, but I certainly don't spend any time in espn. I mean politics, I could care less. And I would never check the other news source, whatever the other is for you. So I made these claims, I actually wrote them down and then we did a month, 30 days and I just tried to behave as normal. And I'm sure I even forgot about it after a day or two. And then the right, the actual revealed preferences came back. And I think of this, I can't help but think of a Venn diagram of this, like your, your money and your life and you hope that they look like a circle, you know. Yeah, a circle. And. But often there's actually a gap between them. And this was a revelation of a huge gap of inauthentic behavior. Right. And you're pointing to this too around the shame of this inauthentic behavior because I was horrified by like how much time I actually spent on espn, how much time I actually spent on political sites, which I don't care about, at least apparently I do. Apparently I do. And then at the same time I remember telling my daughter, you know, my daughters, probably all of them during that 30 day period. And my son, I don't have time for that mountain bike ride right on my one page financial plan. My statement of purpose, my statement of financial purpose is time with my family, mainly outside and services in my community, that's what's most important to me. And I think anybody who knows me would tell you that's what it says. But they don't know. They didn't see this behavior. And I can tell you right now where that shame. Like, all we have to do is pull up your screen time for a minute.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah, totally.

[Carl Richards]

Right. And so. So what do we do when the. There's no overlap in the circle? Well, the first thing we do is, like, we can feel that guilt, Right. And hopefully we can move it from shame to guilt and we can metabolize it. Like, let it all come through us, like, process it all, and then practice. Like, anything we're not good at, let's just give ourselves the grace of saying, I'm not good at that. And how do you get better at something that you're not good at? You practice, and so you slowly find time. And when you see the overlap, you celebrate. And every once in a while, you'll see a perfect overlap. Like Christmas Eve, you know, you might see a. And you can say, oh, that's amazing. And the next day when you say, where did all these presents come from? And you get angry and there's a gap again, you can say, oh, yeah, but what we have to stop doing is running from that gap. Like, running from that information, running from inauthentic behavior. Because, like. And what's an interesting question to sort of think about is, who do you have. Who do you have in your life that has permission to enter that gap with you? Right. Who do you have in your life that could expose you to that inauthentic behavior quietly? Like, you know, there's a strong disincentive to not point that out to me. Right. Because it. It may hurt. Yeah. And I think we just need more of that. So the fact that you feel that way, I would just sort of. Right. Like, pay attention to that and say, okay, interesting, interesting. Not guilt or shame or blame. Just, wow, that's interesting. What could I do slightly different to get some alignment today, some alignment tomorrow. Right. That's. That's how I would approach that.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Tim]

Okay. Make that. That makes a lot of sense to me. That. Of course, that's. And. And maybe that's a really useful. That's useful. That's a. It's useful to feel guilt in the. Like, it's a. It's a signal that there's some misalignment happening there. But I'm super intrigued that in. In a lot of. Well, you've. You've written about this. And in a lot of your podcast conversations, you'll start with this question about, you know, what's the first word that comes to mind when you see a dollar sign or when you think of money? Or what's the first experience that you remember when you had this emotion around money? And it feels like for a lot of people, there's some deep history at play that is also creating a negative emotion around money. And so I'd love for you to talk about that, because that was. That's. That was very clear to me when I. The very first sketch in your book is this. Is this page that just says, money equals feelings.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah.

[Tim]

And I knew the word instantly when I.

[Carl Richards]

What was the word? It.

[Tim]

For me, actually, it was guilt. And this is interesting because Tim's wasn't. Was.

[Interviewer 1]

It was anxiety.

[Tim]

Anxiety. But guilt was mine. Like, I knew it. I knew it before I, like, finished the first sentence.

[Carl Richards]

And, well, I. I'm taking over now. I knew this. I told him. I told him.

[Tim]

He's gonna do that thing.

[Carl Richards]

Just. Just tell me a bit more about that. Like, what was the. Can you. Is there a precipitating event that came with it?

[Tim]

Well, I. Yeah, but the. The interesting thing was I didn't. It wasn't. It wasn't obvious. It was just at some point. I don't remember if it's in that chapter or if I was just doing this with your guests in. In. In the podcast, but you ask about what's the. The first experience that you remember with money? And truly, I thought these things were separate. And then it was so obvious. I don't know how. I've never connected them, but one of my very earliest memories, like, very early, was being with my very best friend, and we were in kindergarten, and I remember her telling me that her family was poor and we were eating cereal, and I remember being like, I shouldn't use all this milk.

[Carl Richards]

Stop it.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Carl Richards]

And like, that's so good.

[Tim]

That was little, you know?

[Carl Richards]

Yeah.

[Tim]

Wow.

[Carl Richards]

How old were you?

[Tim]

We were in kindergarten, so my whole

[Carl Richards]

goal was to get you to cry, and it only took five minutes.

[Tim]

I don't think I'd ever even, like, consciously brought that memory back that, like, I knew it when you. When you asked that question, and I thought, like, wow, I have found a way to justify guilt my whole life about money. And sometimes it was about not having enough. So I feel guilt about how I'm spending it. Sometimes it's about having enough and feeling guilty about how I'm spending it. Like, it's just that's been the. I fill the guilt box and I carry it with me in any context.

[Carl Richards]

Can we do one more thing like.

[Tim]

Yes.

[Carl Richards]

How, how, how back then and now? How does, what does that feel like in your body?

[Tim]

It feels like tightness everywhere, like anxious clenching. Yes. Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Carl Richards]

I just think. Well, first of all, thank you. Thank you. I've heard so many stories like that that are like the simplest little things where you're just like, I, I just yesterday I was with a friend who told me this story about. Right. He remembers sitting on the top stair, like his bedroom was upstairs, stairs go down and the stairs ended. The landing of the stairs, right there was the kitchen, sort of family room. And he remembers sitting on the top stairs and he remembers almost being so little that his feet were swinging. I'm sure that, I mean, because that's only that high, but that's the recollection he has. And there may be some sort of groundlessness to that. And he remembers sitting up there, his first memory of money is sitting there listening to his parents argue over how they're going to pay the rent. Right. And you can sort of feel. And he said the same thing, sort of like tightness. And I think if we start paying attention to the. The reason I think the feeling in the body is so important is if we can start paying attention to the feeling in the body early on, that that feeling will tell us something's going on long before our heads will catch up. Right? And so if, if. And I think what we can do is instead of trying to rewire, resist the stimulus, like I will never drink milk again. You know what I mean? Instead of trying to resist the stimulus, we can start to notice because that which you resist persists, right? Like resisting the stimulus will just make it stronger. We can start to notice the stimulus and rewire the response a bit, right? And a rewiring of that response could look like looking back at how old?

[Interviewer 1]

Five.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah. Looking back at five year old Aubrey and saying, hey, thank you. And we got it from here. Like it. Because that was a. Probably a useful. Something about that was useful and now it's become a little maladaptive. Right? And so I, I love that idea. Let me tell you just real quickly, an experience I've had and I've only uncovered this recently. I noticed for like, I didn't notice for probably a decade. And then I started to notice that for over 20 years I would walk to the mailbox and feel. And we lived, most of the time we've lived in Places where you had a little bit of a walk, you know, whatever that was, Even if It was just 100 yards. And I would notice. I actually didn't notice for more than a decade, but I noticed recently that I'd been doing that, and I would. Particularly when I'd open the mailbox, I'd feel a little clinched, and especially if there was a letter from anybody related to the tax service ira, And I had no reason for that. But anything. The bank, the bills, anything. And if it was from the irs, I just tore it open. If it's from the State of Utah, Tax Commission just tore it open. And the reason I noticed this is like, six months ago, I ripped one of those open, and it was a change of address request. I mean, like, there was super benign. And then a couple months later, I had one from the state of Utah. I opened it, and it was a. It was a refund I had forgotten about. Like, it was positive, but I was feeling all this anxiety, and I. I was telling my dad that on Father's Day, this. Father's Day, and he said, what do you mean? You don't know? Essentially, I was like, well, he's like, you don't really know the story. And then he told me about an experience he had had with a tax problem that he'd run into, you know, years ago that I. Once he told me I kind of remembered the periphery of it, but I had no context for it. And so I'm just. Now I can notice on the way to the mailbox, like, oh. And I can say, hey, like, maybe that feeling kept me safe in some weird way. I don't know. But now I don't need to worry about that. It's just male, you know, and probably positive male, at least neutral. So I think that's the first step to starting to unwind that stuff.

[Aubrey Chavez]

Yeah.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah. Okay, well, wait. Anxiety.

[Interviewer 1]

Oh, anxiety. Oh, here we go.

[Carl Richards]

Where? Where? Where? Just quickly, like, curious.

[Interviewer 1]

I was talking with Aubrey about this on the way down, I think. I don't know if it goes as, like, as far back as childhood for me necessarily. Like, we. We had enough. I never felt.

[Carl Richards]

How. How did you know that? Curious about that.

[Interviewer 1]

Actually, I'm very sort of, like, mathematical. And I remember, actually, my. My parents leaving Quicken Open on the computer at the time, and I saw their.

[Carl Richards]

You went around checking it out, checked it out?

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Carl Richards]

Like some sort of forensic account?

[Interviewer 1]

I mean, no, I wasn't, like, deep in it, but I saw the number, and I was like, yeah, it seems fine. Like, it really. I don't want to say the number, but, like, from my.

[Carl Richards]

You remember the number? I remember. I remember the order of magnitude. That's amazing.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. And, like, I think from time to time, you know, it felt a little tight, but, like, my parents were and are, you know, just very stable people. They just, you know, and very, you know, grateful for that. In a lot of ways, I had delusions of grandeur from very early ages. Like, I remember in high school, my friends and I, you know, a couple in particular, talking about how much money we were going to make and what cars we were going to drive. And so I think, well, I got back from my mission, and I think it became clear to me that the people that made tons and tons of money were entrepreneurs.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

And. And so I had this goal to, like, to be an entrepreneur. And we got married really quick, like, six months after I got home. Aubrey was a couple years ahead of me in school because I'd been on a mission. And she graduated, got a job teaching, as I was, and essentially, you know, sugar mamad me through. Through my last couple years of school, I started a business. It was not. This is in my naivete with a, you know, with a friend. We didn't really, at that point, know too much about what we were doing. And when we had. Right around the time I graduated, we had our first baby. Aubrey quit her job as a teacher to stay home with our daughter. And it was on me all of a sudden, and this. And this little business, and the business was not enough to provide for us, but I. And maybe I should. I don't really. I don't know. I don't, like, necessarily regret this, looking back, but. But it probably would have been more responsible for me to go get a job. You know, I could have, probably, but I was so. I think, again, the delusions of grandeur. Like, I just had this. I had this thing, and so it was like, push through. You know, it's going to be terrible for a while, and then we'll pull out of it, and it'll all be worth it in the end. But that produced a couple of really bad years. You know, like. Like, I think we made $10,000 one of those years. We racked up credit card debt. And like, for. For me, in that time period, money all of a sudden became a source of extreme anxiety because it also seemed like no matter how hard I worked, I wasn't seeing. And I was working very hard. You know, I wasn't seeing the return. And so I think a Lot of my money issues actually come out of that period of my life, more so than childhood.

[Carl Richards]

That's amazing. I have so many questions. I'm super curious about the word. You know, it would have been the more responsible thing to do. Oh yeah, super fascinating about that. And then, you know, I was working really hard, but wasn't getting the results. Like, it's so interesting how much we link our thinking and our effort to some external success metric.

[Interviewer 1]

Right.

[Carl Richards]

And how easy that. I mean, it's deep in our culture, right?

[Interviewer 1]

Totally it is.

[Carl Richards]

And. And even more the entrepreneur startup culture. It's deep in that culture too.

[Interviewer 1]

I think my, my Latter Day Saint ism is built into this in a lot of ways.

[Carl Richards]

Sure.

[Interviewer 1]

We have this weird tension. Like I was reviewing some of the famous scriptures about money as I was preparing for this conversation. You've. On one side you've got Jesus, you know, saying it's easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for Richmond to enter the kingdom of God, on the other hand. So I was just reading this one this morning. Alma 129. There's so much to dissect here. And now, because of the steadiness of the church, they began to be exceedingly rich, having abundance of all things whatsoever they stood in need, flocks, herds, fatlings, abundance of grain, gold, silver, precious things, silk, fine twine, linen, all manner of good homely cloth. And so like there's a lot of. In the Book of Mormon in particular, there's a lot of like, keep the commandments, prosper in the land. I feel like what we would normally do on faith matters would be like,

[Carl Richards]

it would be like, well, what does

[Interviewer 1]

prosper in the land really mean? You know, but like this verse is so explicit. It's like the stability of the church led them to all these very specific riches. And so like, what are we supposed to do with all of this? I know, that's the question. What are we supposed to do with all of this?

[Carl Richards]

Yeah, you know, let's just add one more to the mix that I've been fascinated by. And John, you remember that moment when Mary, they're anointing. Mary anoints the Savior with what? Breaks open the alabaster thing, like basically her safety deposit box, like that whole story. And one of the disciples is upset, and it was Judas. And the narrator, I'd never noticed this. The narrator, John says he. Because they say something like, wouldn't this been. What a waste? Wouldn't this been better to give this money, sell this and Give this money to the poor. And John says, Judas wasn't angry because he cared about the poor. I've never known, like, it's so explicit. Judas wasn't angry because he cared about the poor. He was a thief and he held the bag. That's the language in the. Like, he was a thief. And he. Yeah, I said the same thing. And he held the bag and I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait, wait a sec. Now, look, we don't know any of this, but this is the story I choose to tell, right? Which is either Jesus didn't know he had appointed a thief as the CFO of the whole organization, like the movement, right? Either he didn't know or he was making a point. And I kind of choose to believe the. And again, I have no basis for this, but I kind of choose to believe the latter. That he, like, the point is, you think this matters? Let me show you how little this matters, right? Like, let me. Like, you know, what matters is love.

[Interviewer 1]

Oh, man.

[Carl Richards]

All that matters is love. And again, we don't know any of this, but. But we do know he didn't care because he was. Cared about the. He wasn't angry because he cared about the poor. He was a thief and he held the bag. And so I don't know what to do with any of this stuff in terms of the conflict, except that I think it's all because we know what happens next. You know, that homely cloth turns into tinkling, whatever. Like, you know, all. And, and. And we get. We get this predictable cycle. So I don't know what to make of any of it, except that we seem to have lost the plot. And the plot, I think if we follow what all the wisdom traditions point out, but especially Jesus, the plot is love. And so anything that gets in our way is a distraction. Right?

[Interviewer 1]

And I.

[Carl Richards]

And again, I don't know. I don't know what to do with it.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah. You know, so when you.

[Carl Richards]

I would.

[Interviewer 1]

I'd imagine you've asked thousands of people at this point, what is the feeling around money? And I bet you get a lot of example answers like anxiety, stress, fear, stress, et cetera. It seems like that's an indication of having lost the plot, because we know that fear and love can't coexist. Right? And so if money is the source of fear, people, it's preventing us from living the gospel. It seems like.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah, I mean, I think we have lots of all. Again, all the wisdom traditions. I mean, what was it, Brigham? My big. My biggest fear for these people is not, you know, that they'll get run out of town or tarred or feathered. It's that they'll become rich, fat, and kick themselves out of the kingdom or whatever and on their way to hell. Yeah, it was a pretty strong quote, you know, So I. Yeah, I don't know. I know that it seems to be the crux, at least my view is that how we use this set of resources, including money, but money, energy, time, and attention is the crux of the test. Right.

[Tim]

You did this. You had this really fascinating conversation with Rabbi. Is it Stutman?

[Carl Richards]

Stuttman.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Carl Richards]

That was so fun.

[Tim]

Oh, my gosh, it was so interesting. And you brought something up. You said something about that wisdom. Traditions around the world teach this idea that there's some kind of more money, more problems. And you were moving through, and she kind of stops, and she's like. And she kind of pauses to be like, do I really believe that, actually? And what she says is, I think what I believe is more money, more possibility, less work, more problems.

[Carl Richards]

And.

[Tim]

And that there's sort of this. Like, what she was bringing to the table was just this. This piece around the idea that it just means you can do more, you can do more. There's something. You have a. You have tools. You have, like, more that you can work with. And. And it was such a weird, like, whiplash moment because I was totally on this train with you. Like, yes, there's danger here. And. And this is really not how she saw it. So I. I'm curious, like, what. I guess what you took from that conversation in particular. And is that a path forward? Because it does seem like fear becomes very restricting. I'm not sure that that fear is actually steering me in a good direction necessarily. It just. It shuts me down. Like, it closes down creativity and openness and love because I feel tight and nervous, and I'm ironically not able to use this as an asset.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah.

[Tim]

Like, I think I'm less capable of imagining ways to be God's hands because I have so much anxiety around.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah.

[Tim]

This thing. And I loved her perspective that, like, this is all about possibility.

[Carl Richards]

Me, too. I. I had the same experience. It's like, whoa. Because she said it was so kind. She said, hey, would it be okay if we investigate that a little bit? And even the word, like. She didn't say, can I push back? She didn't say, can I? She said, can we investigate that a little bit? She said, because I don't believe we have that. I believe we have more money, more possibilities. I Think they've had more years to work this out. You know, like, I think there's. And there's so much in that tradition around the use of money. Yeah, right. To the point where it's a harmful stereotype even. Right. But there's so much in that. In the Jewish tradition around. Around the appropriate use of money. And I. You know, the. The verse that we throw around a lot is like, money is the root of all evil. It's not what it says. Right. The love of money. So I think it's. Maybe this story would help. Austin Kleon, who wrote Steal like an Artist, he's one of my favorite. Yeah. Like, creative thinkers. I. When I had him on the show, I asked him this question I've been really fond of lately. Like, if money were to come in and sit with us right now, like, personified, what would you ask it? Like, what would you ask it? Right. And Austin said. He was like, whose lives have you ruined and whose lives have you made better? I was like, oh, that's fascinating. And then he cried and he said, you know what? Actually, I would ask it. Who has figured out how to handle you? And I think that's what Rabbi Stutzman's pointing to is like, money is ultimately, we all want to get to the place. Like, the most enlightened state with money is neutral. Right. It's just zeros and ones in the cloud at this point. It's just a tool. Ultimately, we want to get to that place. But we've layered all these stories about. About the use of milk when I'm five.

[Interviewer 1]

Right.

[Carl Richards]

Like, we layered, you know, like, about this level of anxiety and work and taking care of a family and all that stuff with all these stories that we've got to work through. And I think that's when it gets so messy that we. It turns into, I need more of that. I want more of that. And it can. It's pretty quick to go. It's pretty easy to go for my need and want more to love. I love money. And I think that's when it starts to get to problem. This is not like we're not talking about. I mean, sometimes people are easy to dismiss this conversation. Like, what is this, communism? So, no, that's not at all what I'm saying. What I'm saying is, like, how this. This tools has incredible power. And I think we're dealing with another one that you just had a conversation with. Like, AI has incredible power on both sides. So it's not about bad or good. It's about learning how to harness that in a way that would be for the betterment of our and other people's lives. Right. So. And I think that's what she was pointing to. Yeah, more opportunity, more money, more opportunity, more possibility.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Tim]

I still feel this snag around worth and wealth like I. That and maybe that's one of those things that goes deep. But like I think part of the tension is that it's, you do have more possibility when you, when you have more of this tool. And so it's easy to, it's easy to just link dots and pretty soon you're looking around at all of the mission leaders and thinking like what do they all have in common? And like what do all of these general authorities seem to have in common? And we're. We. It rolls off the tongue to mention the extremely successful careers that every apostle has, has had. Like and, and so I can see how you can say well this is, it's a practicality thing. They're in a position to serve because they, but, but it's, but I think what it, the way it trickles down is this understanding that we as members of the church should look like the Romneys if our, if we're living right.

[Carl Richards]

You know, I'm so glad you like it's. This has been 20 years of my work like of trying to figure that.

[Tim]

Yeah.

[Carl Richards]

Bumping up against that. And like what did prosper in the land? Like all of this stuff. And then the people we appropriately admire and sometimes inappropriately hold up and sometimes mimetically try to be like, like it's so fascinating to watch how quickly you know, a new general authority will get called and their first talk in general you'll meet if you have friends like this, they have the general authority voice within a couple of months and dressing similar. So there's and, and part of that's really, really valuable and really, really important but part of that's really dangerous. And, and the part that's dangerous is yeah they're like how do we self worth and my value in my community is related to my ability to make a difference and that happens to be related to money. And if I just get my thinking right and then you've got this whole world we have of self help stuff that has really forwarded that thing like embedded that level of thinking that if something's not going in the external, going well in the external circumstances of my life, it's just my own thinking and I don't know what to do with any of it. I'm just Saying as a culture, we seem to have gotten caught up in this idea that you are more valuable if you must be more righteous. Yeah, right. Because it says it.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah, yeah.

[Carl Richards]

You know, misinterpretation and all, like, it's just hard to get. Right.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah, yeah. As I was thinking about this too, I, I was thinking about in many ways how the church itself was born out of a context in which money mattered immensely.

[Carl Richards]

Right.

[Interviewer 1]

You know, Joseph Smith's family was very, very poor. His early, you know, his early expeditions, treasure seeking and sort of being known in those circles as somebody that maybe had the chance of finding buried treasure. Even when once he, you know, said he had the gold plates. People thought of this as like a get rich quick.

[Carl Richards]

Sure. Scheme.

[Interviewer 1]

And then a lot of, I mean, so many trials around the bank and church debt and everything. And then, you know, over the course of 200 years, we end up as arguably the most prosperous religion in, you know, in the world. And it's just like the money stuff runs deep, you know, and I wondered, I've wondered if you've ever, if you, especially given that early context of Joseph Smith and then obviously the Saints coming out here and having essentially nothing, needing to build a society from the ground up, is that somehow still infused in our Mormon, like, ethos around money?

[Carl Richards]

Yeah, I don't know. I don't know. I mean, I would imagine there's like industry.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Carl Richards]

Save rainy day frugal food storage. Like they're. There's so much about, like storing up. And back to our earlier conversation about money's natural state being in flow. Right. Like currency and cash flow and energy and all of those. There's something that, something tricky that happens when you dam up that flow. Like when you make money stagnant. There's something tricky going on. And I think that's another is so interesting. I feel like the Savior was dripping with sarcasm when he said what manner of men would build a barn, fill it up and then build another? You know, like, I think there was just a dripping. And we can point to the lilies and all that stuff and we can say, well, that was a different time. And I don't, I don't know, but I think that's letting ourselves off the hook. So I don't know what level of, of storing is appropriate and prudent and what is beyond. I mean, we have, we have some pretty strong evidence that the appropriate relationship with money is sufficient for our needs. Right.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Carl Richards]

What is sufficient? What's over sufficient? You know, I, I don't, I Don't. And I think this is one of the wonderful things that we've been given is this ability to sort this all out ourselves individually. Right. Like, because as soon as I heard sufficient, I was like, where's the formula? Like, could you please? Like, how many minutes a day you know, what is sufficient? And there's no formula. Yeah, yeah. Except your relationship with God and your own management.

[Tim]

It feels like. It feels like maybe just articulating these ideas and noticing them, like, becoming conscious of them is so much of the work. Like, I'm not sure it's. It's as complicated as I want to make it feel like recognizing that attention and time and energy are. Are also currencies, you know, Like, I think even just becoming aware sometimes is. Is what can just help you relax into this, into this piece that we can use this thing, but it doesn't. It's not attached to our world. And I think maybe some of this is American culture too. When you can step outside of that, of this pressure that it's the thing that matters most or that means the most about you, I think it's. It's easy actually to let go of. When that stops becoming the context that we're all using. It feels less. It feels less concrete, I think.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Carl Richards]

I mean, think about. And this first became evident to us. We moved to New Zealand for what was supposed to be a year, and it turned into four and that. And when I'd come back, I would. And I'm not making any statement about whether this is bad or good. I actually have a very strong opinion about it, but I'm not going to make it here. When I would come back, you'd just be like, wow. I mean, only thing I could describe it was. Was static. Wow. Stat like Landon Constant la. And then even here. And then the fast and the. I remember my kids saying, what's that big car? Like a Suburban? You know, like, it didn't take long to. And how fast everything was going in this static. And. And what I. What I. And again, that's produced some remarkable results, you know, And. And. But what I've realized is we have placed money and work as the organizing principle of our lives. Will fit the kids in. Like we will fit our health in around it will fit. Sleep. I'll sleep later. Right. Like, this time in my life is the time to make hay. Why the sun shines. Like, we've got all this cultural stuff around. Money and work is the organizing. And I realized that in New Zealand when I. The first, like six months I was there, everybody I'd meet, I'd ask, like, well, hey, what do you do? And one of my friends finally pulled me aside and was like, mate, we don't ask that question here. Like, I mean, we lived in the small town of the South Island. Like, maybe in Auckland they do, but here we asked like, what are you. What are you doing on for a holiday? Like, what did you do this weekend? How are the kids? We don't. Money and work isn't the organizing principle of our lives. And I think that's super, super, super interesting.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah. What do you say to someone who hears that and says, well, that would be nice, but, like, I'm the one, you know, late at night at the kitchen table with my partner trying to figure out how to. How to make rent, you know, like, for somebody, this really does feel tight. And it's like, I would. I wish I could have this expansive perspective and think about it differently or whatever, but it's just like, we're not figuring out how to make ends meet on a regular basis. Like, I think a lot of people are in that.

[Carl Richards]

No, it's just, like, deep empathy. I know. You know, and there's part of it that's systemic. And again, there's a reason that money and work is the organizing principle of life in America. It's because if I don't have it, I don't have health insurance. Right. And again, not making any claim on whether that's bad or good. I'm just like. This movement from collective solutions to individual solutions has produced a sense of stress and anxiety that you can't get around. And I'm not. Again, I'm not saying whether we should do it differently. I'm just saying that is reality. The reason people, A lot of people feel that way is not because their thinking is wrong. It's because the system is leading to a lot of that. And so deep empathy for that. Right. Like, and I think, okay, great, thanks for the empathy. What do I do? Well, I think you just slowly chip away. Right? Like, you slowly start to pay attention to what's really important to you. Are there ways to make changes? Can I make big? Sometimes it would require big, dramatic change. Can I. Can I find wasted money? Can I, like, can I just. And all we can do is just chip away, chip away at those things.

[Tim]

One of my very favorite sections in your book is about spending.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Chavez]

And.

[Tim]

And I also. I also noticed that's where I felt the most challenged. And it made me realize I. I think I have reflexively assumed that frugality itself is a value. But I think it was actually really coming from this fearful place. And I don't think it was actually about frugality. I think it was just. It was an answer to anxiety. That one. One way to deal with anxious feelings is just control. Like, control just spend less. That's always the. That's always the answer. And, and so it was. It really challenged me to think about the way spending reveals and. And is an expression of your values. And so I, I loved the exercises that you suggest for figuring that out. And, and it wasn't to just spend as little as possible. And, and like, that's, that's what I remember, you know, listening to Dave Ramsey just religiously and being like, oh, we just have to.

[Carl Richards]

I'm just kidding. Can we just please get through one conversation about money without Dave Ramsey? It's fine. Oh, shit.

[Tim]

It was like. And I think that was also. That also was sort of this about. It was about anxiety for me. Like, it gave me the sense of, like, there's a plan and we're just going to. I'm going to know exactly where every penny's going to go if I just

[Carl Richards]

control it and grip tighter. Yes.

[Tim]

And in some ways, I think actually it, it was. It was keeping this anxiety alive that it was always on the verge of being out of control. And so I felt this, like, real sense of freedom. When you talked about the spending practice.

[Carl Richards]

Yes.

[Tim]

Yes. Would you talk about that?

[Carl Richards]

Yeah. Let me just tell you a quick story on the way into that. I remember years ago, that gripped feeling. And I remember, like the, like when you want to spend money, the rubber band flipping thing, you physically caught, like, flip yourself to remind. Yeah. And I remember saying to my wife one day, I'm like, we gotta make this more painful. We're spending too much money. We gotta make this more pain. And she was like, gosh, that sounds fun. You know, she's like, why would we do that? And I remember this being like, yeah, that's right. Maybe this pain thing isn't the right answer. And so I. What I think about spending is like, imagine you had a friend. It was the earliest friend you'd ever had. So you met them in preschool. They're still the friend you spend the most time with. In fact, you see them three to five times a day. Right. So this is a. You're seeing this friend all the time. Imagine that's true. And then that every time you see this friend, you feel bad about yourself.

[Interviewer 1]

Right?

[Carl Richards]

Like every time. And that's spending is to money, right? Like that's the relationship we have. It's like our most off. Most of the time your first interaction with money is getting a little bit and then spending it. And then your most frequent for sure interaction with money is spending. I mean, because it happens three to 15 times a day. And so if. And that's no way to have a relationship with anybody, right. Like every time I do it, I feel bad. Or. Or we might get to the point, plenty of people listening would be the point where I don't feel bad. I just.

[Interviewer 1]

It's.

[Carl Richards]

It's apathy, right. I don't even think about it either way. Like, not thinking about the friend or feeling bad about the friend is not a good way for a relationship. So I would just maybe. I think the spending practice is this. And I think this is the best opportunity to get reps at this. Yeah, right. Just practice having a better relationship with money. And I think of this as a spiritual practice, right. Like to just start paying attention. It takes three seconds, like every time I spend money. Because the goal is you want to become the best spender on the planet, right? Like world class at spending. And the way you'd be world class at spending is by alignment, like aligning it with. Aligning your spending with what's important to you, right. And you'll slowly find that there are things you can completely ruthlessly cut. And there are other things that, like maybe that's an investment, right? Maybe it's not an expense, it's an investment that produces a return. And to the degree that I can, and to the degree that my budget would allow, I'd want to spend more like on those things and I would want to cut ruthlessly on the things over here. So the simple way to do that is just take three seconds every time you spend money and just simply say. And just notice. And my favorite way of noticing is just. Isn't that interesting? And this first happened to me because there was a period where I was way into Jimmy John unwinches. Like if I had a choice of lunch, I would just be like an unwich. Seems like a good idea. And I had like 20 of them or something over like a year. And I was walking out one day and I realized if somebody were at the door and I walked out, a little survey taker with a little clipboard and said, how much did you spend? I wouldn't have known. I knew it wasn't less than 5 and I knew it wasn't more than 20. Probably more than 15. No, 20. I'd probably say 20. Like the range was. I was like, that's fascinating. So I just started paying attention. And I would just say you just spent $9.72 on a number nine on which Jimmy John's isn't that interesting. And I would submit to you that your behavior will drive behavior change, especially if behavior change is not the goal. So don't make it the goal. It's not about. This is not about. This is shame and blame budget shame and blame free budgeting. Like for. Fine. If you like budgeting and you like Quicken, keep doing it, please. That's amazing. But for the 97% of the people listening who don't like it, just try paying attention. Just simple awareness. And I think not only does that produce some help, some help with the budgeting thing. Like, it just helps you practice paying attention. Which we could certainly talk about like the value of the. The source of capital called attention. But that's, that's the spending practice.

[Tim]

I love that so much. I think the way you put it in the book, something about like your. The goal is to spend lavishly on the things that you actually care about and then be. And then ruthlessly cut the things that you don't. And that just. Yeah, that I, I totally agree. Like there. Because it just felt like this big cloud of anxiety. I think it was more like fasting. Just like go as long as you can without eating and then like you blow up.

[Aubrey Chavez]

Yes.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah.

[Tim]

And. And this, I love this. Feels so much more aligned I that that idea. And back to this conversation with Rabbi Sussman. This one keeps coming back to me. But she said something about how every penny you spend is a, in some way is. Is like a religious decision or. I don't remember exactly how a religious act. Yeah. Which I, I think you could hear with a lot of anxiety. But the way she meant it, I thought was so beautiful. And she connected it to tithing. This like very expansive view of tithing. And, and her example was if you're gonna spend extra on, on an ethically produced piece of clothing or meat or so like you're gonna spend extra. Like that's an ethical decision that you're making. That is a, That's a spiritual values based choice. And to her that was, that was like tithing that was like she was tithing that money. It was God's money that she's. That she's using in this way that felt so aligned with her values. And I love that. I loved thinking of money in that way. Like, it just, it I think it relaxed anxiety and it also, it also just opened up the way a simple daily decision can be like soul food. Like that can be such a, that can be such a connecting experience actually to think of like I'm using this money so intentionally that I'm choosing to spend more where I really care as opposed to just like, like clenching and resisting and then, and then spending as little as, as possible where it might not even matter. Like where it might not count.

[Carl Richards]

I, I don't know, I have like a problem with fancy feelings. Like, meaning like I care deeply about what kind of bike I buy or what kind of shoe and I wish I didn't. And I have a fancy feelings budget. And sometimes my wife is like, you've blown the budget, bro. Like you can't think so deeply about what kind of rake from Home Depot you're gonna get, right? But I think I uncovered years ago for myself at least that I don't make enough money to buy cheap stuff. And what I mean by that was, and I can't remember if the examples in the book, but we bought a pair. Do you remember Moonstone? You remember the outdoor company Moonstone? This is like the predecessor to Arc', Teryx probably. They were making really, really nice clothing that was far more expensive than whatever ski pants you get. And I remember when we were first married, it was within the first year. We both skied a lot. My wife was a ski instructor at Snowbird and I ski and backcountry ski a lot. And I needed a new pair of pants. And I remember the Moonstone bibs were way more than. But I was just like, I can't buy this piece of garbage that I'm gonna have to replace. And I was like, I'm just gonna save and buy the more expensive pants. My kids are wearing them. My 28 year old daughter skis in those pants now, right? And so it was far cheaper, far cheaper than the garbage ones. Now some places, you know where this doesn't matter. Printers, I tried to make it matter. I was like, is there a German made printer that you. It doesn't like? So there are some places where that doesn't matter in other places. And I think you just have a fancy feelings budget and pay attention to it. But to your point, that's an alignment decision. I'd rather buy a pair of jeans that are gonna last a lot longer. It's both in alignment with my values. I actually, every time I touch them, I feel good. There's a sense of quality. There's a piece to me of this, that's like my great grandfather, I bet, traded or great great grandfather probably like put his life energy into making something and then he met with somebody else who put their life energy into making something and they traded it while they looked in the eyes. And I think our distance from that is causing this problem around greed and wars and resource scarcity. And I think it's like if we could just get reconnected with source of capital and how we use it, I think it would go a long ways. Wow.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Tim]

So how do you think about abundance? And I know it really affects how you actually use the dollars and cents, but do you have a way of keeping your mind in this place of abundance when it comes to something that feels like you can really measure it? Like you can measure it.

[Carl Richards]

It's really funny. I was just thinking of my kids who will all listen to this and they're my dad. Abundant. Because I've been so scarce and worried and fearful for so long. It's only the last three to five years where I've had the ability to unwind a bit of that. There's been a lion in every bush my whole life. Really hyper alert, always on guard, every rear view mirror all the time. And. And what I've learned from that is that it's just a matter of perspective. Like you can take somebody with exact. I mean, how many. It's so interesting to be like, you go to a movie together, you're sitting right next to each other, you walk out of the movie and maybe see some friends and they ask you how the movie was and you hear Aubrey describe the movie and you're like, what movie were you in? You know, or a car accident. You're standing together on a corner with somebody else and you read both police reports and I think that there is some. I want to be careful with the use of the word choice, but there's some practice that we can develop to slowly learn to see that abundance is a function of perspective. I remember President Oaks talking about a hurricane in Florida and I can't remember when this was. It's got to be 20 years ago, like a hurricane in Florida. And the newspaper article had interviewed a couple different families and he was just pointing out that one family was super angry and upset and disappointed and discouraged. And the family next to them was saying, we're just so glad that we're all alive. Now this family may have a bunch of money saved up and this family may not. I don't know the details, but it pointed to the idea that there's some ability to practice choosing to see what we already have. My wife said to me the other day, I was complaining about something, and she's very good at just being like, get over yourself. And I was complaining about something, and she said, if somebody were to follow you around and take pictures of your life and put them on Instagram, you. And you saw them, you would be jealous. And I was like, yeah, I guess that's true. And I think no matter what our situation is, maybe we can always look to find something like that and practice that. I think that's all I've got on it, because I don't know another. But that doesn't mean that there's a really bad, juvenile version of this. And it was in the book the Secret, the worst book, the most harmful book ever written about money. I just go on record because it was pointing to something. Don't send me any emails about it. I've already gotten them all. It's fine. It was. The reason it was so harmful is it was pointing to something that's true. Like the law of abundance is a correct principle. Like the law of attraction and having an abundance mindset. Yes. But it was pointing to the juvenile version of it. Right. The juvenile version of it is I'll just spend money to buy the Bentley and the universe will show up to pay for it. That's the juvenile version of it. Right. The real version of it is something much more nuanced. And it's probably more. Not about getting more of something. Exercising an abundance mindset to get more of something. It's probably about recognizing what you already have. It's probably more about that. At least. That's my. And this has been a 20 year. I remember specific road trips with my wife talking about this exact thing where she was trying to point to that, and I was like, that's not the way it worked. You know? And so I think that's a hard. It's a hard lesson for me to learn at least, is like, maybe I should just focus on what I already have. Right.

[Tim]

Is that tithing to you? Like, is that a place where this law of the tithe can be something to work with?

[Carl Richards]

Sure. Yeah. I think if we get out of the automatic habit of it and we start to recognize that, like, I almost feel like I remember having this experience once with my. My bishop. We had an amazing year, and it was right after a really hard year where we lost our house, actually. And the next year was amazing, and I couldn't make sense of it. And I remember I had a check and handing it off. I remember I physically wanted to go hand it and just say, look, look. Do you understand what this represents for us in terms of what's happened? Right. And I think if we can get closer to that connection, which is what Rabbi Stutzman was pointing to, like, much closer to the connection, then we'll realize, you. Well, realize full value is the other thing I sort of often think about, like, if I'm going to spend the money, if I'm going to tie the money, if I'm going to donate the money, why not? Like, you're going to do it anyway. Why would you do it begrudgingly? You're going to go on a trip with your. Your kids and you're going to spend the whole time. I can't believe how much money we're spending.

[Tim]

Yeah, right.

[Carl Richards]

Like you're going to do. If you're going to do it, why not get full value? And I think the same applies to any sort of donation. Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

I. One of the things that I appreciate about you, Carl, is that you're willing to get into the. The messy stuff and talk about it. And especially with money, it feels like one of one. One of the many potential problems to our relationship with it is that we're just, like, silent about it. You know, some people. I think some people, like, maybe yell about it or whatever, but I think especially in our relationship, we're much more likely to just, like, never say anything.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

You know, and in that same. It's sort of in the same way that cash, you know, should be flowing in some way. Like, it seems like you. And you even say, like, I think it's on the back of the book. Like, this book is a conversation grenade. Like, sort of like the way I feel like you live is to, like, okay, we're gonna, like, blow this up. Like, let's. Let's, like, start things moving. Is that. Is that an important part of dealing with money?

[Carl Richards]

It's really like, it's. It's so crazy to think, like, money, politics, sex and religion. Right. Like we were taught. And three of them, we've decided it's fine to talk about way too much. Yeah. Right. And money seems to be the last taboo.

[Interviewer 1]

Oh, that's interesting.

[Carl Richards]

Right? The last. Like, there's this. There's this survey they do every year on the streets of New York where they ask people, are you more willing to talk about your finances or the intimate details of your bedroom life? People are always more interested, more will. Willing to talk about the intimate details of their lives than money. And I think, here's the reason is I. I think we just get unmoored so quickly because we expect it to be a math problem. And it probably should. Like, in our most enlightened state, it's just math and neutral. But to get there, like, for almost any of us is going to be a really long schlog. And. And so we show up to these conversations expecting it to be two plus two equals four. It always does. But two plus two never equals envy, right? And so you just sort of like, I. Sometimes I think of it as, like, I made this mistake once in. My wife and I were in France, and I, you know that we were looking at the cow. We were on a mountain bike ride and we were looking at the cows with the bell, you know, that whole thing, just beautiful cows. And I was leaning up against these cables and I was like that. And I felt something on my leg. I was like, that's a little weird. And I was like. I went. And I was filming it. I was like, I wonder if that. That's. Is that an elect? And I grabbed it. It was just like. That's sometimes what I compare it to. I've got the video, if anybody like to see it. But that's what I sometimes compare it to is you go in, it's like talking about money is like touching electric fence that you didn't know was electric. And so if we can just change it and say, this is going to be electric. Right? And I think give each other permission. I've had these conversations with some of my kids recently where I'm like, look. Because they've been saying, like, I realized I hadn't had some of these conversations with them. And so recently, one of my kids on a mountain bike ride, she was home from school, said, hey, we're the wealthiest family I know. And I was ahead of her, which is very important in the story that I was ahead of my daughter on the mat because I will always be ahead. I'm just kidding. That's too close to home. So anyway, I was like. I remember feeling sort of like, wealthiest fit. What are you talking. What about the so and so's who have a jet? You know, like, we're. And she was. She was sort of like. And I said something like that. And she was a little unmoored by that. And it said something nice, like, why is that the first place you go? Or something? And we stopped, and she was like, no, no, What I mean is, it's a. I can't remember what day it was. It was a Tuesday at 11, and we're out riding our bikes. That's what I mean by wealthy. I was like, oh, okay, okay. And so that led to a conversation around, like, hey, when we're. What you're seeing happen is a person who was never taught how to talk about this. Like, this is a dad who was never taught how to be a dad. This is a dad who was never taught how to talk about money. Can we work on it together? And it's gonna be really clumsy. So if I react in a way that seems a little unmooring, know that I probably didn't mean it. It's probably just me reacting out of a place of fear or worry or fear scarcity. So I think giving ourselves permission to say, is it okay if we just try. And I'll often say, like, I'm gonna ask you a question. It's gonna be really clumsy because I don't know how to ask it. And then. And then always have a timeout rule. That's the other piece to me that's really important, and I don't always follow it. That's why the timeout. My wife instituted the timeout rule. Like. Like, she can go and just, like, she'll just point outside. Yeah. Like, go throw something heavy around or go on a run or mountain bike ride and come back. And I think that's how we approach the idea of talking about it. Because we're not going to sol unless we can talk about it.

[Interviewer 1]

Yeah.

[Tim]

This happened. So just. This happened. I hear you do this on the podcast over and over, and it's been. It's revelatory to me because I get so cringy. Like, I'm alone listening, and I'm like.

[Aubrey Chavez]

I'm.

[Tim]

I'm like cringing about, like how per. How personal it feels that, like, you're gonna go there with somebody and it.

[Aubrey Chavez]

But it's such.

[Tim]

It's been such a gift to just realize, like, well, there's definitely something here about this question that is like bringing up some emotion for me that I don't even understand because I'm by myself. I don't have to answ the question even. And. But it's. It's such a gift. And I wonder if that's what happens when we. When we are open to being a little bit vulnerable, where we feel sensitivity.

[Interviewer 1]

Like, it.

[Tim]

It. I think. I think what that holds is wisdom. Like, it can reveal a real wisdom about our own wounds. And I think it's also. It's so connecting to realize that in. In relationships that matter, it's such a gift to be able to understand those wounds together.

[Carl Richards]

You can just mention something about that. Like, that's been the most surprising thing to me about the 50 fires project, really has been how deeply grateful people are for a space to talk about it.

[Tim]

Wow.

[Carl Richards]

I've been shocked. Like, somebody like Chip Gaines. Right. Who has. Probably has people who have. People who have people taking care of the money. Right. Like, it.

[Tim]

Wow.

[Carl Richards]

How grateful. You know, Krista Tippett.

[Tim]

I was gonna bring hers up. Yeah.

[Carl Richards]

It was crazy. That was crazy to me, because I even told her. I'm like, krista, I've been listening to you since I was like, I've spent more driveway moments, you know, waiting for. In the car to. And it. And you have never talked about this. And she was like. Never talked about it. And when I asked her about enough and she said she invoked relky, she was like, I'm just gonna live with this question for a year. I asked Corey, my wife, 20. I mean, she was on the show 20 years of. 27 years of marriage. I think 27 or 28 at that point. And I'd never asked her about her first memory of money. And then I was telling her what my impression of her experience with money growing up was, and it was abundant, and it was this whole thing. And she was like, that's wrong. And I was like, I've told that story all over the world to thousands and thousands of people. And she's like, I know. And it's wrong. And so we need to create the space for one another. Yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

This sort of, like, willingness that you have is inspiring to me as someone who tends to want to float above the real and just, you know, theorize or whatever. Like, you're willing to get into the messy details.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah. Do we have time for one more story?

[Tim]

Yes, please.

[Carl Richards]

Because that, like, sort of ties us all back to what we talked about earlier. Like, who has permission to go into that authentic space with you?

[Tim]

Yes.

[Carl Richards]

Do you know what I mean? That's the inauthentic. Inauthentic, Right. When you're. When your behavior is inauthentic, who has permission? Like, that's the gritty space of like, hey, you know what? No, let's go there. Right. And we. We try to get up to the Tetons every year as a family. And we've been doing this since my. My. My. My in laws. My wife's parents had started this, and so it's a special place for us.

[Interviewer 1]

Both.

[Carl Richards]

Both sides, the Driggs and the Jackson side. And this year we were up in Driggs and we had this amazing experience and kids went different ways. And so it was just my oldest daughter and my youngest daughter. My wife and I in the car driving home. And my oldest daughter is in distressed private equity in New York and so really knows her way around money and is really good with it. And my youngest daughter is 21 and also very open and biomedical engineering, very thoughtful about everything she does and also pretty willing to have conversations. We're driving home and somehow the subject of money gets brought up. And it's about the difference between Cal Poly tuition and the University of Utah tuition. So the youngest is at Cal Poly. There's a lot of backstory, but it doesn't really matter that much. It's just. We got into a conversation around money. And I was driving and we were driving to go into the park. So we were driving over Teton Pass to go into the park, to go on a hike. And I had sunglasses on, luckily, and my hat, because the conversation got really. And I really sort of in a spot where I was super uncomfortable with it. And it was about sort of like, how much is there? You know, My daughter was being very careful about her decision. At Cal Poly. We had a deal where we'd pay for in state tuition at the University of Utah. Not at byu, but at the University of Utah. I'm just kidding. We had a deal, and if you wanted to go somewhere else, we would use that credit and then we'll help you figure the rest out. But. And so she's done this incredible job of figuring the rest out. In fact, she's over figured out. And that was kind of the thing. She was like, I think it's costing me more than the deal. You know what I mean? Like, I think I'm paying. Like, I don't think you're contributing the universe. She wasn't. She would never use those words, but that was kind of what we were trying to figure out. She's like, is there any way to release some of this stress on me because I'm contributing every penny I make over the summer to my own 529 account. And I was like, amazing, right?

[Interviewer 1]

But.

[Carl Richards]

And. And I could feel it get a little heated. And it got. I was getting. I wanted to pull out so bad. Like, I even. I felt. I felt the words coming out of my mouth. Like, I'm getting out. You guys go onto the hike. I'll walk over Teton Pass. Like, I gotta get out of this. And I. Luckily, I just kept. I, like, almost, like, kept putting him back in. And at one point, one of my daughters said, dad, this is so funny. Isn't this your job? And I was like. And she's right. Totally right. Like. Like, I'm glad she went to that spot. But it was like, and it's gonna be tension. And there's a line in the book that if I had to do the whole thing over again, right, this. Like, 10 years worth. This is 11 years since my last book. For this one line, I would. I would do it. Because what I realized what was going on was there were values. And part of this was my behavior because I had us looking at ranchland. And so we drove around a couple times, like, should we buy this? Should we buy this? And somebody said something like, this is like, dreamland. Why are you doing this? And so there was all this tension and competing values. And there's this essay in the book called When Values Collide or the Values Collision. And there's a line that says, this is my favorite line of the whole book. Your values are not at war. They're in conversation. And I realized. I was like, oh, we're not. We're not at war. Like, this feels like war to me right now. It's not war. And I asked, like, if we did this thing, would you guys. If we cut back and didn't do that trip, would you guys be disappointed I wasn't able to provide as your father? And they were like, no, we'd be proud of you for making that decision. And I was like, no way. You know what I mean? Like, I've spent my whole life thinking you were going to be disappointed. And then suddenly we're like, wow, not a war conversation. So you fast forward. We go on the hike. We end up at lunch before, at Persephone's, of course, before we drive home. And one of. I can't remember which daughter said, hey, what was the highlight of the whole trip? Trip, and we're going around the table. I was like that. Like, we'd had a magical trip, and there's a lot of highlights, but I was like that. That conversation was one of the hardest conversations I've had in my life. And I was so proud of myself and them for hanging in, right? My daughter wanted to. Both of. I'm sure everybody in the car wanted to check out. We hung in, right? And we had a conversation instead of a war and be. And. And we learned that that's what it means to live intention we will never resolve those that resolve of future, present stability, adventure, ranch land, paying down debt. Like those will never get completely resolved ever. Yeah. And tension keeps bridges up. Tension's okay. If we can just realize like it's a conversation, not a war. And if you start to feel like it's a war, get back to conversation. Yeah, yeah.

[Interviewer 1]

I think we, we especially as church members tend to think sequentially. It's like, okay, we're gonna like push our way through this and then it's gonna be just like we're gonna resolve it. We're resolving and then it's gonna be peace and it's gonna be great. That's not, I think what you're pointing to is that's not how it works. Like church, community, family.

[Carl Richards]

It is tension, it's never a result. Yeah. Jeff Birmingham pointed to the. You get to the top of the mountain, there's just a void there. Yeah. This is the most common conversation I have right now. 45 to 55 year old, Uber successful masters of the universe, they show up and say, I made it it Right. This is always a quiet, hey, can I come to Park City?

[Tim]

Wow.

[Carl Richards]

I have a question for you. And they show some evidence of making it like a balance sheet or an income statement. And then they look around and make sure no one's listening and they say, what was this all for? Is this all there is? You know, my kids don't know me, I don't have any hobbies. And so I think we. That's missing the plot. Yeah. Right. And we need to get better at that.

[Tim]

Wow, thank you so much. This is just so powerful. I, I think it's a topic I also just push away because it just feels like. I don't know. And it, it has been such an incredible experience to just realize that this is, this is a real pathway to, to understanding, I think where we, where we can all use some healing. It's like a, it's like where something that feels very abstract meets very real life. And it's such a useful place to work. Like such a useful place to work out these really human experiences. And so you a real mentor in that, in that space. So thank you so much for your work and for this conversation.

[Carl Richards]

You can cut this out if you need to, but thanks for sharing that and five year old Aubrey's okay.

[Tim]

Thank you.

[Carl Richards]

Like, we can all thank that and move forward. And 21 year old, 23 year old Tim working 72 hours a week, like it's, there's no line in the bush, you know, there's no line in the bush. Love you guys. Amazing.

[Interviewer 1]

Love you.

[Carl Richards]

Yeah.

[Aubrey Chavez]

All right, thanks so much for listening. We really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Carl Richards. It was such a meaningful one for us. And we want to Recommend his podcast, 50 Fires, which is full of honest and thought provoking conversations about money. And he always has really fascinating guests. And his new book, you, Money Reimagining wealth in 101 Simple Sketches is so smart and accessible and just genuinely fun to read. You can get it on Amazon or wherever books are sold. And if faith matters, content is resonating with you and you get the chance. We would love for you to leave us a review wherever you listen. We read all of the reviews and we really appreciate the support. Thanks again for listening.