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- [00:00]
A
Hey, everybody. We're thrilled to announce that Restore tickets are on sale now. And we're so excited to tell you about the new format for this year. We're calling it Restore Connect. It's designed to make your experience more interactive, more embodied, and more communal than ever before. This year, it's September 24th through 26th at the Nordisk center at UVU. We'll have an opening social on Thursday evening with two days of smaller, more intimate sessions so that you can choose the topics that are most important to you and have lots of time to connect with other attendees. And the presenters space is limited, so you're going to want to get your tickets fast. Can go to faithmatters.org restore today. We can't wait to see you in September. Hey, everybody. This is Aubrey Chavez from Faith Matters. Today we're joined by two thoughtful therapists, teachers, peace builders, and good friends, Amanda Ford and Melissa Mason. Together with their spouses, Patrick Mason and Chad Ford, Melissa and Amanda have dedicated years to the work of building peace in families, communities, and faith spaces. But in this conversation, they are inviting us to consider what we think might be the foundation of all lasting peace. It's the quiet and really difficult work of culture cultivating peace within ourselves. Drawing from their work as therapists and educators, Amanda and Melissa offer a vision of emotional wholeness that really challenges many of the assumptions our culture rewards. Together today, we explore how striving and productivity and constant achievement may inadvertently shape our sense of worth. And we ask why so many of us find it so difficult to rest, even when we desperately need it. They ask us to become more fluent in the wisdom of our bodies and to rediscover rest, not like something that we earn, but as a spiritual practice and even a commandment. Again and again, they remind us that spiritual formation isn't a race toward perfection and that every season of our lives can become part of who we're growing into. We hope that this conversation helps you notice the ways that you may be being invited into more rest and presence and less striving. And now, here's Melissa Mason and Amanda Ford. Well, Amanda and Melissa, we're so delighted to have you on the podcast finally. So thank you so much for being here with us.
- [02:03]
B
Yeah, thanks for having us. It's nice to be on and talk to you guys.
- [02:05]
C
Yeah, I'm super excited.
- [02:07]
A
Yeah, good. We've been. You've been on our list since Restore and then Repair because all of the conversations that you were both leading were super popular, and we kept hearing all this great Feedback, and everybody wanted more. And so we thought this has to be a podcast episode too. We talk about peace building all the time. It comes up all the time on the podcast, sometimes with your husbands about this outside world peacebuilding. And I think this is the first time I really thought about the. The foundation of peacebuilding. Like, your capacity to be a peacebuilder really has to start from something that is healed and whole on the inside. So I'd love for you to just start there and talk about that connection between peacebuilding and your on the inside, your inside world and your outer world. Yeah.
- [02:52]
C
Yeah. I love the way you asked that, Aubrey. I teach peacebuilding at the university, and I feel like we want to start global. Even students come first day, they're like, wait, why are we talking about. Like, why are we meditating? Why are we talking about our hearts? They want to jump right into conflict in the world and what peace building, the big scale, looks like. It has to start here. And I think for me, realizing that is really where the heart of it is. If I can't learn. You use the word be whole, and I actually think, or healed. That's a process that takes time. You have to be really patient. It's not like all of a sudden I'm not at conflict with myself anymore, or I've arrived to this perfect Zen inner peace. It's this process so that we can do better. Bigger peace. Not better, more peace.
- [03:43]
B
I think the idea of inner peace is always intimidating to me because we talk about, like, we achieve inner peace. Like it's this thing that we got to. I'm not sure I'm ever going to achieve inner peace. There's too much going on in here. So for me, it's about accepting the messy complexity that makes me that I'm human. And so that is part of being human, right? And not fighting against it. Not being in conflict with myself, my own parts, my own mess, right? But instead really getting to know myself, really cultivating my wholeness and even the parts that are scary or I want to fight. You know, Amanda and I were joking earlier because Amanda has this warm, grounded manner. When you're around her, you just feel calm. And she's like, I'm not calm, Melissa. But she does. She has this great, like, grounded, like, I think of peace, you know, when I'm around Amanda, for me, I don't have that. Nobody's ever said that about me. For me, though, accepting that, that's, you know, that is not my manner. I, you know, I thrive on, like, energy and often rage or anger. Right. Being able to accept those things as a part of me and also use them kind of transformatively in the ways that I value creatively or, you know, as an activist or things like that. So accepting the things inside of me that make chaos, that for me, that's kind of my inner peace. And when I can do that, then I can approach other people and approach the world in a more. In a more grounded way, in my own Melissa kind of piece way.
- [05:18]
C
Yeah, yeah, it's hard. I was just gonna say it's. I love that. This idea that Melissa and I are very different, but we both can get to inner peace. And Melissa might say, like, she has this anger or rage or, like, she's so passionate. And we're just. I was just thinking about, like, sometimes I want to be more like that, and maybe she wants to be more like me, but it's more of this acceptance of, like, hey, this might. This part of me is easier, and maybe something that she is good at. I actually want or strive to be like that. And so I think both accepting your strengths and maybe your innate personality, that kind of comes with who you are, whether it's softer or more peaceful, or maybe some people are like, hey, that's really hard for me. But the joy or the. I think the goodness is that we all can work towards, like, enhancing who we are to becoming the best version of who we are.
- [06:15]
B
I like what you said, because, like, peacemaking is also about relationship, right? So we're talking about inner peace, but also this. You know, we are not humans in a vacuum. We are not in isolation. We're in relationship.
- [06:25]
A
Right.
- [06:27]
B
To accept that I don't have to be Amanda, and Amanda doesn't have to be me. I don't have to be everything and she doesn't have to be everything. I can relax into myself. Helps me to be in relationship with people better. I need Amanda in my life because she's awesome. That I need the Amanda's of the world in my life. Right? Because we are here to be in relationship. We are not here to be in isolation, to grow, to develop, to form in isolation. We do that in relationship. It's part of our, like, divine inheritance, part of our spirituality. So that means that we're not enough on our own. Like, that is built into the plan, that we need each other. We belong to each other. And so that's kind of really relaxing. I don't have to be Amanda. I can just be Melissa. I can hang out when I'm with Amanda. When I need Amanda.
- [07:12]
D
Could you, could you maybe talk about that tension a little more between acceptance and transformation? Because I think at a superficial level, potentially it's like, it is relaxing to hear you talk in some ways to be like, oh, like all this stuff that maybe I don't like so much about myself or that I've always thought it should be, should be different. Like, I don't actually have to change that necessarily. And, and like, I think at least superficially, it's easy to say, oh, actually that's a slippery slope to like not changing at all, to not transforming, which seems to be a part of the human project, you know, and definitely, definitely, I think it's fair to say in part of the religious project as, as latter day Saint. So how do you handle those two potentially competing ideas?
- [07:58]
C
I think there's this paradox in everything but trying to accept that who you are is not perfect. First of all, I think, Tim, when you guys are so great at being honest with some of your weaknesses or things that you struggle with, and I love that you guys kind of can look at those and say, hey, I'm still working on it, right? It doesn't mean I've like given up and accepted, like, okay, I'm just, this is just part of my flaw. Or, you know, it's still, and I think we use this word striving a lot where I'm like, oh, I'm striving. But that feels like I'm in control of it. If I strive and if I do enough, I'll become enough. And if we can just soften into letting go of this, like, I have to do these certain things or these check marks to become who I am and just open up to more of, like, I already am that. But I've got to like, slow down to listen to where is it in my body that I already can trust that I'm getting better at those things, or I'm noticing that, hey, I'm less controlling in this, or I'm getting better as a parent, or I'm, I'm actually more present with my partner this week. Oh, wow, look at that. I'm, I can do better. But I, I, I love the way that you're even asking that, Tim. I think it's important to ask.
- [09:08]
B
I mean, it's hard work. I feel like we're trained to not accept a lot of ourselves. Like you both use the word should. And that's something, as therapists, we always take out the things that we think we should do or should be. It almost Feels offensive to suggest that maybe there are things that, you know, we can accept that we don't want to accept. I just think humans are beautiful. Like, this is why. This is why I do the work I do. Because we are so beautiful and made up of so many different things. The things that we think are good, the things that we think are bad, but we judge those things and we decide, like, what we want to discard and what's acceptable and what's not. I think that. So one of my kind of core values where I come from is curiosity. I love to be curious. I think that there is a real sacred practice in getting curious about the things about yourself that you don't, you know, want to accept or you feel like you need to reject or. And. And thinking about, like, why is this a part of me? What is there about this that I was taught, like, I can't, you know, I shouldn't have, or I can't accept. What are ways that I can transform this in a way that aligns with what I want. So, you know, I brought up anger earlier kind of jokingly, but no, yeah, I, you know, I thrive on anger. So that's something that especially women, right. We are taught. You should not be angry. You know, don't be an angry woman. Don't get loud. Don't be aggressive. Yeah, don't be crazy. That's something like, I've kind of pushed away a lot and tried to hide. But I've been thinking a lot recently because, you know, there's different things that go on that hit us in life, right. That I am, like, not happy with or that I get upset about. But I've been thinking a lot lately about if I have that anger, if that is just something that really comes up, it's a strong part of me. How can I use that transformatively in a way that actually helps me rather than getting rid of it, rather than even maybe trying to soften it. Like, how do I transform that into something constructive rather than having, like, this inner conflict? How do I transform that into something that's helpful? Lately, you know, we've had a lot of health challenges with one of our kids. And as many parents who have gone through this know, you just have to. Sometimes you just have to buckle down and do you just have to do it right no matter how tired you are, no matter how many other things are going on? So recently I was thinking about anger in this way and how I can use that energy as fuel when I am tanked out. Now I can't do this infinitely, that's not healthy. Right. But how do I transform that energy inside of me when I read the morning news to kind of propel me to keep going when I'm like, living in a children's hospital, you know, how can I use that energy and transform it from something maybe destructive to something that helps me stay awake and keep going? There's so much about ourselves that we, off the bat, reject or feel like we shouldn't have. I think we are just gifted with so much creativity that we don't tap into, and we can use that creativity on those inner parts of ourselves.
- [12:27]
A
I thank you so much.
- [12:29]
C
I.
- [12:29]
A
That really, really resonates with me. I think I've shared this on the. In conversations before, but I think the podcast sort of revealed this tendency of mine to just kind of be like, all over the place. I feel like, that same curiosity, but it's so scattered. I just feel, like, interested in all of these things all at once. And so my story is that I feel like that makes me flaky. And I remember and this has been a kind of a new experiment for me in the last couple of years to just start trying to trust that energy. Like maybe that. That's exactly what I need to. To do this. Actually, Like, I. I feel a lot of natural curiosity, and it's okay that it's pulling me in a lot of different directions.
- [13:09]
B
Let me pause you here real quick because I just want to point out, look, what you've done with that, with what you have, like, read as flakiness has turned into all of these different topics of interest. It's so easy to dismiss yourself, right? What you see as flakiness, we are just, like, in awe of. You have transformed that scatteredness. You have transformed it. You've created something that affects people. And I think probably everyone listening is like, yeah, like, you created that, Transformed that.
- [13:38]
C
Yeah.
- [13:39]
A
I so appreciate that. Thank you. I think my question for you is that I. I recognize that a lot of the suffering that I felt about this part of myself came from resisting it. Like, I really was trying to wrangle myself into a different way of. And like something that looked a lot more type A, like, you know, scheduled and consistent and steady and. And so a lot of. I feel so much more peaceful, like, more aligned and accepting now that I'm trying to, like, work with the energy. But what I. My question for you is that I also recognize that I have a real sensitivity around this. Like, if I am having an outer conflict in a relationship or where this Part of myself is being criticized. I can totally feel that I have a. An outsized reaction, probably, because I know that it's true. Like, I know that this is. There are some ways that this can be a weakness. And so I'd love for you to just talk about when you recognize that there's a. There's. There's something here that is a gift. There is something here that is probably overused. How do you. How do you show up whole in a conflict where you're likely to overreact and defend? There's.
- [14:54]
B
So there's a couple of therapists who says that true liberation is freedom from our own automatic responses. And you feel that you're talking about, like, this automatic response that comes up. And, you know, if you were to take, like, a mindful pause and examine this, you could logic your way out and tell yourselves all these things. But those automatic reactions, they are formed from all of the experiences that we have had all of our lives. That's a lot that we're carrying.
- [15:18]
A
Right.
- [15:18]
B
And so it makes sense that that would come up. One thing Amanda is amazing at is mindfulness, which I think is, like, the starting point here.
- [15:26]
C
Yeah. I think one of my favorite acronyms that Tara Brock uses is called rain. So it kind of walks you through. And it's. For her, it's a mindfulness practice, social. Say you can do it on yourself or you can listen to, like, a guided meditation through it. But that R is to recognize, and that's what we've been talking about. So in Rain, I recognize that there's something. If it was guilt, if it was my body, like, I recognize there's a reaction to something that happened, and then that A is. I'm actually going to allow it to just be there. I'm going to be like, oh, okay. And you know that phrase, let it come, let it be, let it go. The let it be part, like, that's really hard for people. We don't want to feel like. Like that. Like. Right. Your face even. Like, I don't want to go there.
- [16:06]
B
We don't want to be uncomfortable.
- [16:07]
C
So I think if you can allow yourself to soften into that emotion. Like, where is it in my body? Am I feeling? My heart is really tight. I'm just bringing my awareness to it. So I'm aware that there's this tightness in my chest. I'm recognizing there was a reaction I had. And then the eye is to investigate where is it and go deeper, like, okay.
- [16:25]
A
In your body.
- [16:25]
C
Yeah, I. I would say, yeah. Sensate like somatically like, is it my chest? Is that investigating it here? Is it? What's happening? What did my mind do? What did my face do? Like trying to just maybe even do a quick little body scan. Like, where am I at? When I think about this thing that the email that didn't get responded to or whatever it is that somebody is triggering a reaction in you. So now I'm investigating. Okay. And then the N is my favorite part. She used to say it's a non judgment, but I had actually she shifted to just nurture. So if you just said, okay, what do, what do I need? What is my body telling me? Do I need just to place my hand on my heart and say I'm okay? Like, I'm enough, I'm okay. I hear you even talking. She does a lot of talking to your body. And I think that's really important to just say, hey, I, I hear you, I'm right here. It's okay. I, I feel my heart. I, I'm even talking to my heart. Like you're beating really fast. My face is getting really flushed. I, I'm okay. And then just start to slow down and just listen and say okay. So that rain practice, I think is really helpful.
- [17:27]
D
Yeah.
- [17:27]
A
Yeah. Thank you.
- [17:28]
D
Wow.
- [17:28]
A
Love it.
- [17:29]
D
Are there other, are there other practices? I think that's really helpful, especially in the moment when you, when you feel activated. Is there something else that is sort of like a daily go to in order to sort of live more consistently in a mode of, of inner peace?
- [17:42]
B
Yeah, I mean, I think this is where getting to know yourself is so important. Knowing what makes you you, what makes you tick, your values. Like I talked earlier about, you know, how curiosity is such a core part of myself. What are the core parts of yourself that you would not be you, you would not feel right or happy if you weren't aligned with that.
- [18:06]
C
Right.
- [18:07]
B
So I always encourage people to get curious about when you peel away all the stuff that you do and you be and you show people and everything at your core, who are you? What is important to you? Because I think then, Tim, to answer your question, like, as we go about our daily lives, we can always be asking or checking in with ourselves, like, is this aligning with my values? So if my values, my own personal values are curiosity and creativity and, you know, justice, everything I do that feels good is going to align with those things. Anytime I'm acting in a way that makes myself uncomfortable, usually I'm going to find that I'm going against those values or I'm not aligned or kind of going in or fighting myself on those. Right. That's a good daily check in for me, reminding myself of the things that make me me, because our values are good things. It's also a good affirmation practice too, to be like, I am a compassionate person, you know, but just remind yourself, like, this is what makes me me at my core. Not the things I do, not the stuff I achieve, not the checklists or, you know, what my children do.
- [19:17]
A
Right.
- [19:18]
B
This is what makes Aubry Aubry or what makes Tim Tim. Am I living in alignment? Are the decisions I'm making in alignment with that? That tends to be a pretty good guidepost kind of on the day to day to just check in with yourself
- [19:33]
A
and see how you're doing.
- [19:34]
B
And also when you feel really uncomfortable about a decision you made or a direction to go, it's also a good way to check in and be like, oh, maybe I'm just working against myself right now. Yeah.
- [19:45]
A
Would you talk about certainty and what role that plays in all of this? Because I think for me, when I feel the most, whatever the opposite of inner peace is, like when I'm just like in turmoil about a decision, like you said, when I can feel that there's some. That this conflict really has signaled that I am, I'm fighting against myself. I think what I think I want is to just know for sure that I'm doing the right thing. You know, I want the, the situation to resolve enough that I have total confidence that I'm doing whatever it is the right way. And, and I mean, we've talked a lot about ocd, and in our family, that's been a big part of our journey. And it feels like the theme to so many mental health questions is just increasing your capacity to tolerate uncertainty. So I'd love to know, like, it's
- [20:33]
B
not a fun answer, right?
- [20:35]
A
Yeah, it's the worst answer. How do you, when you recognize you have values that are in conflict or some. Something that is leaving you unsettled, how do you think about that and, and accept that you're not ever going to get that like 100% stamp of approval, know that you, you, you figured it out.
- [20:56]
C
I actually want to ask you guys, both of you, a question, thinking about what you're already doing, because I know you guys have been working on this yourself. So I'm just curious for you, Tim, like, what is working for you right now? Like, if you were to think about uncertainty, what do you do that helps with that already?
- [21:12]
D
That's A good question. I mean, I do feel like there's been, you know, a very long journey for me into comfort with uncertainty. And I, you know, this, this podcast actually is a practice in some, you know, in some ways I think being challenged in various aspects of my life as a parent, as at work, where it's sort of like shown repeatedly that I'm wrong about stuff, I think is helpful, is helpful practice as well. Just like, I don't know much as I. As I thought I did, but I would say too, if anything, I actually worry a little bit more on the other side of things now. My uncertainty is so all encompassing that I'm sort of like loosey goosey with almost everything now. It's like I'm almost trying to come back to holding on to something with a little bit more firmness. You know, that because I. And I think my certainty and my need for certainty was so strong, is sort of like that necessary pendulum swing. Just gravity takes it all the way to the other, takes it all the way to the other side. And I'm like. And so I'm like, trying to find balance with this point continuously.
- [22:24]
B
You know, uncertainty is so interesting. Like, we're so afraid of failing. Certainty tells us that we're doing what we should. It's a marker that tells us that we're on the right path. Right. We tend to think of these decisions, of our lives, of our journeys in this very linear way. Like, we're going to figure things out and we're going to go on this, like, upward trajectory, this arrow that points that way, and we're going to make decisions and we're going to hit benchmarks that tell us that we're doing good, that we're doing the right thing, and that's going to help us feel more certain. Right. I'm going to guess that life has shown you that that's not how it works. That's not how our spirits form. That's not how our own formation works. That's not how life works. Like, life is all over the place. It's not a straight line. It is chaos, tornado, right? And when that happens, when life runs into our idea of how we should be progressing, the benchmarks we should be hitting, that's when we get really scared and we think, okay, I've done something wrong, I'm failing, I'm broken. I think it helps. It helps me anyways to kind of get my mindset out of that linear path with those, you know, things that tell me if I'm doing enough, if I'M achieving enough if I'm making progress, because that's not how I grow as a person. Rather than like a straight path, I like to think of it more like three rings, right? As we grow ourselves, as we understand ourselves, as we accept ourselves, as we make the decisions that feel good and align with our values and, like, reinforce that to ourselves, we grow outward. Like a tree with rings, right? We expand outward. So it's not really a linear progression. It's more of an expansion. Right. That's a helpful way for me to think about it, because then I don't have benchmarks that are checking my worth. Because if you think about the way a tree grows, there's those forest fires and droughts and all that stuff. And then. And you can see that in the rings and the tree is growing anyways. There's things that hit and you continue expanding and you learn and you form along the way, and you're not stopping and saying, oh, I failed. Because this has happened. It's more like, oh, this has happened because it's part of nature. It's part of. It's part of life. It's part of formation. It's what transforms me into myself. So for me, shifting mindset and saying, okay, maybe it's not about certainty or uncertainty. Maybe it's about formation, about growth, about expansion, about cultivating wholeness rather than progress. That helps me at least because I struggle with some of the same things, you know, wanting to feel like I can trust myself or the world around me or God.
- [25:08]
D
Yeah, I think that makes sense. Yes. What I love about the cheering metaphor, Melissa, is I think a lot of us tend to. And I'm looking at myself only here, I guess, but, like, tend to live life as a race, you know, going forward, achieving, you know, as fast as you can. And I think this is occurring me as you speak through the tree rings. But like in the race metaphor, you're truly leaving stuff behind. You know, it's like it's not part of you anymore. It's like it's back there with the tree rings. You're. You're continuously encircling things that have always been a part of you, you know, and there's growth there too, but you're not leaving. Leaving the rest of it behind. And this is not to use myself as a. As a good example, but, you know, I'm thinking through what I just. What I just said about trying to get back some of holding on to something you can't be completely just in a, you know, ep, epistemic. Floating at all. At all times, you know, and so, like, that there was something good there, you know, maybe needed to be balanced. And that's part of my growth. But it's not like I should leave that entirely behind, is kind of the way I'm thinking about it.
- [26:06]
B
Yeah. The good thing about expanding is you start to, like, encompass things within your borders. Right. Rather than leaving them behind, they become a part of you. And also that means that they're not good or bad. They just are. They're part of your experience.
- [26:21]
A
Yeah, I think that has been the most grounding belief that I. It's just that there aren't dead ends. Richard Rohr always says that, spiritually speaking, there are no dead ends. And it just seems like that. That. I think that's true in our life. We'll never know if our decisions are all the way right or all the way wrong. And I genuinely believe God can work with whatever it is. So the true rings really work for me because I. That's how it feels that, like, yeah, you grow around whatever the decision was, whether it turns out to be to. To feel like it caused more problems or that it was smooth sailing. There's. There's growth available to us on the other side, no matter what. Um, I'd love for you to. One of you mentioned striving, and I'd love for you to talk more about that. It feels like culturally, this is something that. It's almost a. It feels like we actually consider it a value. Just this idea that productivity and maximum effort and, you know, somebody put it recently to us, they called it toiling. Just like, you're just gonna work so hard it hurts. But that. But that's a good thing. You know, it feels like we have this. We have this. This value socially and. And so then we crash. So I. I'd love for you to talk about how we. How you think about worth and striving and rest.
- [27:37]
C
I've been thinking about becoming and what God expects us to become, or I think my idea of, like, God wanting us to. And maybe when I was younger, I did believe this, that, like, if I did these things, I'm going to get baptized. I'm going to say my prayers every day. I'm going to do all of the obedience. I'm going to follow this path to get into heaven. Really. I mean, that's what I wanted. Right? And I think we all want this eternal life. These are the things that I've been told, and I believe in my heart, if I do them, I'm I'm gonna do. I'm gonna do my way to heaven. And I. I think I just. If I could let go of this idea of what I do, but more of who I am, that then my doing follows. My partner, Chad, he always uses this word. We were talking about this earlier, like, a fleshy heart and what that means. And I don't think the scriptures actually say fleshy. I think it says a heart of flesh. But if we can soften our hearts and be in relationship with God, with our heart, then the doing comes naturally. And it's because of who we are and our relationship to God and Jesus. I just think God loves us no matter what our actions are. He of course, wants us to do good and be good. But I think in the end he's going to say, hey, you're here, your heart is good. I know you, I see you. And welcome. Like, it's not this check mark of milestones.
- [28:59]
B
I think you're totally right. I think God loves us first. Right? We know that, like, he tells us that over and over, like, whether we listen or not. And it's so interesting to read the scriptures, especially the Old Testament right now. I just taught gospel doctrine yesterday and to see how, like, in places we don't expect it. Like, when he's talking to the people of Israel, how he says before anything, like, he loves us first. He has, like, he chooses his children first right before we do or are anything. So that's there. I think the striving comes from the fact that we don't trust God when he says that we don't trust that our heavenly parents love us anyway. And so we still feel like being humans in this Western capitalist productivity society, in a Western church community, we still believe that there are things that we have to do to earn love. It feels so tense. I was thinking when you were. You guys were talking about striving and achieving. It's so hard and rigid. It's the opposite of the fleshy heart, right? It is. It's tense and it's hard and it's tight. And I always think about. There's a Mary Oliver poem that I love. It's, you know, one of her most popular wild geese. And she says, you do not have to be good. You do not have to walk through the desert on your knees for 100 miles. I'm butchering it.
- [30:23]
A
No, you got it.
- [30:24]
B
Repenting the desert.
- [30:25]
A
Repenting, exactly.
- [30:26]
B
Yeah. You only have to let the soft animal of your body love what it loves. I love that poem because it is telling Us, you don't have to hold tight. You don't have to grip and punish and strive and beat yourself up. God loves you anyway. God created you anyway. So what does it mean, then? To let the soft animal of your body love what it loves? So I think the weird image that always comes into my head, do you ever make slime with your kids?
- [31:02]
A
You know, I hate slime.
- [31:03]
B
Good for Jesus.
- [31:04]
A
But I admire the mothers who make slime with their kids.
- [31:07]
B
Awesome. The ones that get roped into it, even though they don't want to. Okay, so I'm thinking about the slime that, you know, when you hold it, when you grip it, it. It stiffens up. It seizes and it gets, like, really dry. But then when you let go of it or relax your hand, it oozes into a puddle. When I try to remind myself not to strive, when I try to remind myself to soften, that's the image in my head is of the slime just kind of relaxing and going where it goes. Because then if we're talking about expansiveness, that's what it does. It expands and it explores. And in a way, it lets us come alive in a way that we can't. If we are holding tight, if we are striving, if we are so focused on walking through the desert on our knees.
- [31:52]
A
Thank you.
- [31:54]
D
Sorry, Amanda, did you have something?
- [31:55]
C
No, Go ahead, Tim.
- [31:57]
D
I. I'm thinking about this from the perspective of your clients or students or whoever's showing up and, like, wanting to make peace, you know, in the world and, you know, sort of, like, hearing. Okay, it's actually. I've got to start with me from my perspective, and this is maybe because of how. I don't know, stubborn or slow. I am in very. In various ways. Like, I. This seems like. This conversation seems like the work of a lifetime to me, where I'm never actually gonna be, like, fully there. Like, I'm never gonna process all these emotions really well. I'm never gonna cease from my striving.
- [32:33]
B
Yeah.
- [32:34]
D
And so I'm wondering, when do we actually get to work? If, you know, we're just working on ourselves forever.
- [32:39]
B
So. Okay, so, Tim, so you're thinking about again, in this linear, like, achievement, when do I achieve peace?
- [32:44]
A
Right.
- [32:45]
D
Yeah, exactly.
- [32:45]
B
But if we think about it, it's cyclical. It's something that we go through constantly, over and over and over. And every time we do it, we transform a little bit and a little bit more. It's a practice that. That we cultivate throughout our lives. So it's it's not an end goal. It's a posture. It's a way of being in ourselves and in the world, rather than, how do I do this? It's, it's practice. I mean, yeah, as a yoga practitioner, as a mindfulness practitioner, I mean, you know all about practice and how to cultivate that.
- [33:21]
C
Well, I think, I think, Tim, you asked this question earlier, and we didn't totally finish the answer, but you were looking for, like, moments of, what do I. What does mindfulness look like? Like, in my day. And I think we did end up answering. And some of it is our way of being, which I, I love that idea of, like, how I show up for people, but that you can't just all of a sudden show up mindfully. Like, it is a practice. In yoga, we use this idea of the mat as your practice. Like you're, and we call yoga your practice. Right. So if I'm doing these hard poses, I just got back from a practice this morning that was really hard, and it was trying to working on my hips and, like, poses that I just am not comfortable with and really difficult. And on the mat, I can, like, let myself be annoyed or angry or like, say, oh, I'm, like, judging myself. I catch all of that, like, on the mat and how am I responding when things are hard? And the idea is that if I can practice it in a safe, even like an exercise wave. Right. Like yoga, a lot of people think of it as an exercise. It's a physical movement. Your body is doing things that are hard. And then when I show up in life, like, oh, I, my body knows how to do this. Like, I've already practiced it, and now I can show up better for the people in my life. And I think mindfulness is the same way. You've got to start practicing it. So I would invite you and maybe think, right now, what are you already doing that's mindful? Like, where are you? Oh, yeah, I'm mindful. When I'm putting my kid into bed or reading them a story, I'm really, like, there and present. Or maybe it's at dinner time. I, you know, we put our phones away or where is it that you're already doing it? And then say, okay, how is that impacting you? And then if there's space to invite you to do it somewhere else, I always invite my students because a lot of times they're like, I nowhere. I, I, I'm at zero. So it's like, okay, if you want to start somewhere, start with brushing your teeth. Like, can I just brush my teeth today? And that's all I'm going to do. It's like, I'm not going to brush my teeth and put my earrings in and do, like, do something else. I'm only going to be present while I'm brushing my teeth. And as you start to cultivate this awareness of your body, yourself, the movements, and then I would say, move to the shower. Titanhenna is a beautiful poem about like, as I. He connects it actually to connecting to our ancestors through our body. Thinking about, wow, my, my hands and I'm washing my face. And this comes from who I, who I am, come from my ancestors. And then you can start to ripple out into other areas. And I think when you show up mindfully for yourself, you're going to notice you're better with your kids, you're better with your partner.
- [35:51]
B
So Amanda and I are social workers. And so we have the social work code of ethics. One of the greatest revelations of my life was that in our code of ethics is an imperative for self care, for rest. We cannot be effective social workers. We cannot sit with people in the work that we do, whether it's face to face or on a nonprofit or macro level. Whatever work social workers do, we cannot do it in the most healthy, effective way if we're not taking care of ourselves. Having that codified in my profession was like permission. And it made me think like, whoa, why did I wait for this permission? The funny thing is we also have a divine imperative for rest, for that unstructured time. It is built into our scriptures. It is, it's a commandment. God lays out the Sabbath. They say you need rest. And this is built into the rhythm of humanity. This is an imperative for us as humans. It's part of the structure. It's not an extra, it's not an indulgence or a break. I think like, we even tend to put productive productivity language around the Sabbath or around rest. I mean, totally, I'm going to take a day off, right? But again, that's not, it's not an achievement, it's a posture. Because when God rests, he stops and he turns his eye to us and says, it's good. So that gives me a model that gives me an example. When I rest, it really is to turn an eye to the good, to take a breath and just be like, you know, and to rest the way that God rests, not in a way that God. On the seventh day, you know, God sat down and went through a checklist of what he needs to start Doing, you know, the next day or what he could be doing. Right? Yeah, but we. We have a really good model in the Sabbath and in this commandment to rest.
- [37:57]
A
Yeah. I've never thought about the. I've never thought about that. There's no. It's not like. And God was so exhausted that he took the whole day. You know, that feels like a. An. Like a new interesting thing to consider. I feel like this will feel. This is so elementary. But I think what I'm. What I would love for you to. To talk about is how you recognize when it's needed.
- [38:23]
B
Like, when.
- [38:24]
A
Or is it something. Is it a rhythm? And so it's not. You don't. You don't feel like you need rest. It's just like something that you've planned. Because I. I think I know how to crash, you know, Like, I know when I just. Like, I have to. I'm like, I'm. I have to lay down. But I. I think it's hard for me to recognize anything before that.
- [38:45]
C
That's a really good question to think about. When is it? Like you said, I know when I've, like, hit my limit, but I think the goal would be to maybe not record. Can I actually put it into my routine so I don't crash? Right. If you're doing this as a daily practice, I really think. And I'd encourage everyone to start somewhere where you're mindful and still. Like that stillness that the Lord talks about. Like, be still. Right. He invites us to just sit and to be like. Just be like. I think that's the biggest invitation when I'm first working with students to do mindfulness and meditation in, like, freshmen in college. A lot of times they've. If they've never experienced it, it's very uncomfortable, and they're like, that was like the worst. That was not helpful. Why did we do that? And it takes about a semester till the end where they're like, oh, my gosh. And then in their reviews, so many of them will say, hey, this was the. The most helpful was when I just sat and I learned how to just be still and let my mind go so I don't have to do my to do list. One of the phrases I love to use is just be here. Let go of anything that's happened thus far. You don't have to worry about what's happening after this. But can I just be in this space? Just feel my body and just be. And that's. I like the. If we can do that with ourselves, I really Believe, especially with our young kids, you're going to show up better for them and teach them. If I would have taught or learned that at a younger age, I think I would have been better. Right. A better young mom when I didn't know what I was doing and just trying to figure life out. But if you can teach your kids young to just be, be okay with just being and that I love the idea of un carved out time. That's just like, hey, whatever comes up, let your kids be creative, let them be curious and practice that idea of non doing. You don't have to do anything. You just be here and just be together.
- [40:29]
B
Presence.
- [40:30]
C
Yeah, presence is so important.
- [40:32]
A
I love that.
- [40:33]
D
I'm wondering, just maybe as we kind of move toward wrap up here, I'm thinking about, you know, our tradition as Latter Day Saints in particular. And you know, I think we are, you know, we're very good at the, at the doing side of things. There's lots of symbols for doing, there's lots of scriptures that we can point to for doing and, and obviously the tools of therapy. And sometimes we look outside our own tradition to find the tools of, of being. You know, I'm wondering what you find in our tradition as Latter Day Saints and as Christians, you know, that, that points to this cultivation of, of inner peace.
- [41:09]
B
Mm. So I've struggled to find this in our church and so I've had to kind of seek it out. And as I do, I realize there's a lot of opportunities maybe that we're not seeing. There are mindful practices that we do in our wards that we don't realize. The repetition of the sacrament prayer, when we repeat things, it gets boring. We check out. Right. What does it mean to actually be mindful during that and thoughtful. So that's one practice that I, that I started instead of checking out, listening to the prayer, sometimes it was I'm going to focus on the words. Sometimes it's I'm going to focus on the anxiety of the kid who was trying to say the words and not mess up. You know, sometimes I'm going to focus on the presence of everyone in this room who has their eyes closed right now, communally, in this moment. Another thing, our fast and testimony meetings, so wild, like such a cool practice. We get a chance to listen to people often that we've, you know, we don't stop and talk to or have deep conversations with, but we get to listen to them, share some of the deepest parts of their soul. We, Patrick and I used to have a student group at Our house, it's on hiatus right now, but we'd have college students who came over and talk about faith and how they practice and what they struggle with. It was beautiful. And one of the students, you know, said something once about how when she was struggling and trying to be mindful and present in her church, especially struggling with some of the members in her ward during sacrament meeting, she created or made it kind of a meditation where she would really look at the person speaking as this whole person and think about who they were. And she would say something very simple like, here is a man who is really scared for his grandkids future. Here is a woman who is really anxious about if her kids are going to stay in the church. And just kind of, she would like just simplify it to this one statement. Being mindful of a person. And it was. And once she said, we all started practicing that and talked about it and it was so connecting as a ward community because then you start to love people you don't even know. It was just a. It was a beautiful connecting practice, I think, like within the Lord to, to, I don't know, to kind of explore that.
- [43:40]
A
So beautiful. We did the living school, the essentials. What's it called, Tim? The essentials.
- [43:46]
D
Essentials of engaged contemplation.
- [43:47]
B
I'm in that right now. I'm actually doing right now. Yeah. Oh, yay.
- [43:50]
A
Okay. Well, I.
- [43:51]
B
The.
- [43:52]
A
The. Probably the most useful part of that whole year long course was just that you, you kind of have this commitment to some sort of meditative practice for the, for the year. And I think what, what I under. Like what I realized was that even though for so much of the year I felt like my mind was still buzzing, but what I realized as the year went on is that something really shifted. What it felt like is that there was an openness that stayed with me during the day. And I felt like ideas were flowing into my life and, and it felt like there was a clarity that I was experiencing. Not during the meditation, almost ever, but it, but I think it was just like this exposure to stillness that was. That lingered. And I think when I'm. When my mind is buzzing, when I'm not present, it's like I can't hear anything. It's like my head is too full. And so I, I feel like I. What it taught me was there's something about presence that makes me connected to. Not just to the people around me, but to God. Like I'm receiving inspiration that I seem to not be capable of, of hearing before because I think I was just. My head was so busy, so. I love that it's built into our weekly worship.
- [45:05]
B
Yeah. And something that we can create and cultivate. And I would suggest, Audrey Aubrey, that in those moments when you are feeling that, when you are able to be still, even if it's unpleasant, even if that's not the part that you enjoyed, you're trusting yourself. You are trusting that you can sit in stillness. You're trusting that God can hold you. That's not a small thing.
- [45:28]
A
It really does feel like a muscle that, you know, when that's an everyday habit, it feels like something. Something really does shift.
- [45:36]
B
Yeah.
- [45:36]
A
Yeah. Well, thank you both so much. This is so much to think about. And it feels. It feels so useful. So we're so appreciative.
- [45:44]
B
Yeah. Thanks for having us and for your thoughts and questions.
- [45:49]
A
All right. Thanks so much for listening. We hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Melissa Mason and Amanda Ford. And if Faith Matters, content is resonating with you and you get the chance, we'd love for you to leave us a rating or review wherever you listen. It really helps us to get the word out about Faith Matters, and we appreciate the support. Thanks again for listening. And remember, you can check out more@faithmatters.org.