Faith Matters Podcast — Episode Summary

Episode Title: Reading the Bible Through the Jesus Lens
Date: March 15, 2026
Host: Faith Matters Foundation (Aubrey Chavez)
Guest: Riley Risto, Director of Latter Day Saint Peace Studies

Episode Overview

This episode takes on the challenging question: How do we make sense of violence in the Bible, especially the Hebrew Bible, when we claim to follow a God of love as revealed in Jesus? Guest Riley Risto invites listeners to reconsider the way they engage scripture using a "cruciform" (cross-shaped or Christ-centered) lens, suggesting that Jesus—his life and teachings—should become the standard against which we measure all scripture, including its most troubling parts. The conversation explores topics like divine violence, the concept of scapegoating from René Girard, what it means to take the Lord’s name in vain, and how honest wrestling with tension in scripture can strengthen rather than weaken faith.

Key Discussion Points & Insights

Riley Risto’s Background and Conversion

• Raised nominally Catholic, Riley found early fascination with the Bible, especially the "red letters" of Jesus' words (03:33).
• Joined the LDS Church at age 21 after a personal mystical experience while praying about the Book of Mormon; the experience led him to follow Christ, rather than a particular institution (04:27–07:07).
• Emphasizes that his faith journey has always centered on "wrestling" and curiosity, viewing church structure and scripture as scaffolding pointing toward Christ (09:48).

  "Everything else is scaffolding. The church, prophets, all the teachings, scriptures, everything is scaffolding for Christ, to hold him up and to support him." —Riley (09:48)

Why Focus on Jesus?

• Riley’s fascination with Jesus stems from a childhood fixation on the words of Christ—the "red letters"—in the Gospels (10:32–11:30).

• Discusses the difference between speaking about Jesus constantly and actually letting his life and teachings shape action and identity (12:35–14:38).

  "If we're constantly talking about Jesus and testifying of Jesus, does the Jesus of the New Testament come through in what we're saying about him and what we're thinking about him and how we act in his name?" —Riley (13:49)

• Suggests that taking the Lord's name in vain means claiming Jesus and then acting contrary to his teaching:

  "I think what it means is don't take his name upon you and then do something that's completely antithetical to what he taught and how he lived. I think that's taking his name in vain." —Riley (14:38)

The Cruciform Lens and Tension in Scripture

• The host raises the tension between violence in the Old Testament and the radical enemy-love of Jesus (17:53).

• Riley insists that acknowledging and wrestling with this tension is not only expected but intentional:

  “We are called not to be casual observers, but participants in figuring out how to live in this world, participants in understanding who God is…” —Riley (23:50)

• Advocates a "cruciform" or Christ-centered hermeneutic:

  • Rather than reading chronologically and letting early portrayals define God, start with Jesus—God's clearest revelation (19:59–21:56).
  • Hebrews 1 is cited to show Christ as the "express image" of the Father, making Jesus the essential interpretative standard (20:04).

• Argues that viewing God through the lens of Christ “inverts” the usual pattern and brings personal agency into interpretation (23:48–25:06).

Wrestling with Violent Scripture: The Role of Scapegoating (René Girard)

• Discusses the disturbing content of stories like Noah’s Ark when not sanitized (25:06–26:08).

• Introduces René Girard’s theory:

  • Ancient myths and biblical accounts often begin with violence—a murder or scapegoating event—to create social cohesion (27:00–29:00).
  • The Judeo-Christian scriptural tradition, uniquely, increasingly identifies with the victim and moves away from ritual violence and sacrifice (29:00–31:00).

    “In the very beginning of Scripture, you'll see all these acts of violence. And then you start to see as Scripture as the Old Testament progresses towards the prophets… violence and sacrifice… starts to trail off to the point where Hosea says, ‘I desired mercy and not sacrifice…’” —Riley (31:00)

• Jesus quotes Hosea, culminating this arc; the knowledge of God is equated to lovingkindness, sophistication, and mercy (31:00–32:30).

  "That tension that we see… we deal with the tension by using Christ as the picture of God, understanding what he desires from us, and resolving the tension individually…" —Riley (33:40)

Addressing Common Pushbacks

Objection: Isn't Jesus the God of the Old Testament?

• The host raises a traditional LDS doctrinal challenge: If Jesus is Jehovah, then don't we need to integrate the violence attributed to Jehovah/Jesus into our image of Christ? (34:25)

• Riley affirms the complexity:

  • Favors using the most reliable witness—the teachings and actions of Jesus in the New Testament, especially the Sermon on the Mount and the Passion (36:07).
  • Recognizes prophetic fallibility: if actions ascribed to God contradict Jesus’ teachings, they deserve further scrutiny rather than blind acceptance (36:46–37:09).

    "What I am called to do… is participate in this disambiguation… otherwise we make God out to be somewhat of a schizophrenic, to be honest." —Riley (37:09)

Objection: What about Justice vs. Mercy?

• Another challenge suggests mature readers must integrate both divine justice and mercy and not overly favor one (39:00).
• Riley rejects the idea that biblical justice equals retributive justice:

  "I don't accept the definition of justice that equates to retribution. I don't think that's God's way. …I actually see justice and mercy as very much overlapping concepts, not opposed to each other." —Riley (39:00–40:04)

Embracing Scripture as an Ongoing, Transformative Struggle

• Tension and ambiguity are important; certainty is seductive but can be a spiritual obstacle (40:27–41:11).

  "You can give yourself easy answers and feel certain about all this stuff… but there’s nothing easy about that at all." —Riley (40:27)

• Best-case scenario in group/gospel study: Foster openness and Christ-prioritization rather than simple answers (41:28–41:43).

• Illustrates the complexity with Book of Mormon stories:

  • The slaying of Laban (Nephi) is paralleled with Caiaphas advocating Christ’s death—both rationalize scapegoating (41:43–44:45).
  • The destruction account in 3 Nephi is contrasted with the compassionate, embodied Christ who follows, asking listeners to prioritize Christ’s character and teaching (44:45–49:44).

• Encourages viewing the text as living, scandalous—meant to provoke deeper engagement (49:44–51:09):

  “Jesus Christ should scandalize the heck out of you. …this process of discipleship is not…easy. It's so difficult.” —Riley (50:29)

Guidance for Younger Readers and Seekers

• Riley’s core advice to his own children (and listeners):

  "There are no bad questions. There's no bad thoughts about this. …You just don't accept the easy answers because there aren't any. Just keep asking and we'll talk through whatever individual thing it is that they're dealing with." —Riley (51:17)

Memorable Quotes & Moments (with Timestamps)

• "Everything else is scaffolding. The church, prophets, all the teachings, scriptures, everything is scaffolding for Christ, to hold him up and to support him." —Riley (09:48)
• "If we're constantly talking about Jesus… does the Jesus of the New Testament come through in what we're saying…?" —Riley (13:49)
• "I think what it means is don't take his name upon you and then do something that's completely antithetical to what he taught and how he lived. I think that's taking his name in vain." —Riley (14:38)
• "We are called not to be casual observers, but participants in figuring out how to live in this world, participants in understanding who God is…" —Riley (23:50)
• On Girard and myth:
  "Mythology becomes ritual, and the ritual helps to bring a community together. …The difference [in the Bible] is that it takes the perspective of the victim instead of just the majority or the killer or the aggressor." (29:00)
• "I don't accept the definition of justice that equates to retribution. I don't think that's God's way. …I actually see justice and mercy as very much overlapping concepts, not opposed to each other." —Riley (39:00)
• "Jesus Christ should scandalize the heck out of you…this process of discipleship is not…easy. It's so difficult." —Riley (50:29)
• "There are no bad questions. …You just don't accept the easy answers because there aren't any." —Riley (51:17)

Notable Timestamps & Segments

• 03:33–07:07 — Riley’s faith journey & conversion
• 09:48 — On Jesus as the sole foundation of faith
• 13:49–14:38 — What it means to take the Lord’s name in vain
• 17:53–23:50 — Tension between Old Testament and New Testament God; introducing the cruciform lens
• 27:00–31:00 — Introduction to René Girard’s theory and evolution of sacrifice/violence in scripture
• 36:07–37:09 — Authority, prophetic fallibility, and the Sermon on the Mount as the “most reliable picture”
• 39:00–40:04 — Redefining justice and mercy
• 41:43–44:45 — Book of Mormon examples: Nephi & Caiaphas (scapegoating)
• 44:45–49:44 — Third Nephi destruction contrasted with Jesus' peaceful embodiment
• 50:29–51:09 — The scandal of Jesus; invitation to deeper engagement
• 51:17 — Guidance for children/readers: keep asking questions

Takeaways

• Wrestling with scripture is not a failure of faith but its refining fire; simple answers can be spiritual dead ends.
• The radical ethic and person of Jesus becomes the lens for evaluating all revelation, especially when it comes to scriptural violence and justice.
• The process—honest engaging, questioning, and prioritizing Christ—is itself what transforms both individual and collective discipleship.

This episode is a compelling call to deeper, braver, and more Christ-focused engagement with scripture—a journey where honest struggle is not weakness, but the work of faith itself.