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- [00:00]
A
Hey everyone, if you're looking for a meaningful gift to give for Mother's Day this year, a subscription to Wayfair could be the perfect thing. Subscribe this week and we'll send issue seven, which is all about trust, women's voices and women's experiences right away. You'll also get issue number eight, which we're working on right now this fall. These are beautiful, high quality full color magazines packed with incredible art, wisdom and thoughtful writing. These there are links to get a look inside issue 7 and to subscribe for 20% off in the show notes. Thank you so much for your support.
- [00:35]
B
Hey everybody, this is Aubrey Chavez from Faith Matters. Today, as we celebrate our mothers and motherhood, we're exploring the symbols of our divine Mother hidden throughout ancient Christianity and what it might mean for each of us, both men and women, to cultivate and integrate divine femininity into our own souls. Our guests today are Catherine and Bob Sontag, who joined us last year at RESTORE for a powerful session on ritual and wisdom and our divine mother. And today we're bringing that conversation to everyone. Together we explore where the symbol of the mother appears in ancient Christian traditions and grapple honestly with what divine femininity and divine masculinity look like when we strip away the stereotypes that can become rigid and prescriptive. Catherine says that the feminine is by its nature subtle and hidden, something that has to be cultivated with intention. And when souls or systems over develop the masculine and lose touch with feminine wisdom or vice versa, some something essential goes missing. Neither the masculine nor the feminine can truly flourish without the other. And then we spend some real time on practical integration. Bob says that ritual is the way that we translate meaning into action, the way spiritual truths become lived realities. And he says that ritual isn't reserved for temples or holy days, but is available in the texture of our ordinary lives, in hospitality, shared meals and the quiet rhythms of each day. And when we bring intention to these moments, the mundane becomes sacred and the deeper work of integration and transformation can take root. This one is for Mother's Day and for anyone who is ready to engage in this deep inner work. We hope that you enjoy this conversation with Katherine and Bob Sontag. Well, Catherine and Bob, welcome back. Thanks so much for doing this with us. We've, we've wanted to talk to you since RESTORE because you did this breakout session. We heard such great things from everybody who was there. So I'd love for, I actually love to start with Bob. And maybe we can open with the story of Mary at the temple to just kind of set the stage for the rest of this conversation?
- [02:35]
C
Definitely. So the story begins in Jerusalem. The people of Jerusalem had lived for centuries under various foreign rulers. They were living in captivity. They were required to pay a heavy tax burden. They didn't rule themselves. And the center of their world was an empty room, the holy of holies in Jerusalem, which had once contained a tree of life and an ark of the covenant. But behind that veil, it was empty. And into that state there was a child born to elderly parents named Joachim and Anna. And the child was named Mary. Joachim and Anna, knowing that they were old, would not be able to take care of Mary throughout her childhood, resolved that when she was three years old, they would give her into the care of the temple so that she would live in and serve the temple. And so at the appointed time, they brought her there. And Joachim had a request so that Mary's heart would not turn back and want to be with her parents. He said, have all of the youth light lanterns and lead the way into the temple courts. And so they did. And Mary's heart was enchanted by the lights. And she followed the lights into the temple, and her heart loved the place. And the high priest set her on the step of the altar and kissed her and embraced her. And the traditional Christian story insists that Mary even entered into the holy of holies. The vignette ends with these words which I find very touching. The child Mary danced on her feet, and all the people loved her. So, jumping ahead, Mary is now an adolescent. She's had to leave the temple. And the elders of the temple see that a new temple veil needs to be made. The old one's getting worn. So they say, we're going to cast lots and choose maidens who have been in the service of the temple to spin and weave the different colors of the temple veil, the white and the red, the purple and the blue, which represent the four colors of material creation. And they cast lots, and the lot for red fell to Mary. So Mary set about spinning the wool. And it was during that spinning that tradition holds. The angel Gabriel came to announce that Mary would give birth to Christ. So while Mary was weaving the veil of the temple, she was also within her, weaving the mortal body of the Lord. So I want to notice some things about that. Sometimes we tell a story and jump right into discussing the meaning. But the storyteller Martin Shah asks a question which I think is really valuable. First, where do you find yourself in that story as you listen to it? It's worth just asking that. Are You, Mary, are you the elders of the temple? Are you her old parents? But then two other things we can notice. One is that that story gives Mary some symbols. It puts her into action. It puts her in the Temple, it puts her dancing, it shows her weaving. And piece by piece, it gives to Mary symbols that had been given in centuries past to the Divine Mother, the maiden in the Temple, the Tree of Life, the Ark of the Covenant, there in the Holy of Holies. Because Mary was the ark that would bear the true symbol of the covenant, which is Christ Incarnate, the weaver of the Temple veil. So Mary is shown to be an image, a vision of divine femininity. The second that will add to that meeting meaning. The second thing we can consider and just notice is what did the Temple mean to ancient Israel and to the earliest Christians who passed down this story to us? The Temple was seen to be a microcosm. It was a small model of all of creation. And one of the ways that it did that is in its successive chambers, starting with the Holy of Holies at the center and radiating outward, it represented the different days and periods of creation. And the different features of the Temple represented different features of creation. The Holy of Holies itself represented Day one of creation, the point of primal unity, when all things were one. So the things that were present in the Holy of Holies are things that we can consider being in the beginning with God. So to have a vision of Mary dancing in the Temple is to have a vision of the Divine Mother in the heart of Creation in the Holy of Holies. And the fact that the Temple was ever present with Israel meant that those days of creation weren't just things that happened in the distant past, but they were ever present realities. They came before our creation. But before cannot just mean chronologically. It can mean these are the precondition for every moment that we experience. They're always there, and so they're always, ever present. In the heart of Creation is divine femininity. The Divine Mother dancing, the Divine Mother weaving. And all people are invited to turn, to look, and let their hearts love her.
- [08:40]
B
That's so beautiful. Thank you. I probably should have asked you this at the beginning, but, like, frame, where is this story coming from? And like, who holds this tradition?
- [08:50]
C
That's great. I actually like to just jump into the story first, but it's good to approach that. So the story's found in a couple of places. One is a text called the Infancy Gospel of James. That's a very early text, almost as old as the Gospels themselves. That discusses Mary's early life and then adds details around things like the Annunciation and Jesus early life. But the traditional Christians, so Catholics and Eastern Orthodox don't see their understanding of those events as reliant on that text. They say, no, this story just has been with us. This is how the early church experienced Mary. And so details from that story are woven right into Orthodox liturgy. And Mary is mentioned in hymns and prayers of devotion to her as having grown up in the Holy of Holies, having been fed by angels. So the story is found in that text, the Infancy Gospel of James. But Orthodox would object to me saying it comes from there.
- [09:56]
B
Oh, that is so interesting.
- [09:58]
A
Yeah. Catherine, maybe you could talk briefly about why that story or the ideas layered inside of it are. Are important or meaningful to you.
- [10:10]
D
Yeah, I think because of the study that I've done writing my books and seeing this connection that's really beautifully concisely made in Proverbs of the Divine woman being Wisdom personified, and then Wisdom being the Tree of Life. And so I think this story really beautifully shows how all of the symbolism is so layered and gives us this depth and richness to what femininity is and to its very sacred place in the unity of all things at the very beginning in the Garden of Eden as the Tree of Life. And so we can look first, and I've done this in my book, and so I won't go into extensive detail, but we can look at the Tree of Life and look first as what it is sort of universally as a cosmic tree. If you look at the three parts of the tree, the branches, the trunk, and the roots, they represent realms of existence and sort of contain all of the cosmic structure. And in that containing of the cosmic structure, we can also see the way that we progress as souls through realms, from the heavenly realms above to mortality, represented as the trunk and then the root zone, which is, you know, the symbolism of that space is sort of the ancestral realm or the place of deep wisdom that we have from our ancestors, and this place of sort of shadow work and recreation. And so seeing the way that that tree serves as an axis mundi is another way you could say it. It's this point, this vertical marking in space and time that connects us to Heaven. We then can look at the temple and say, okay, the Tree of Life was there in the Holy of Holies. But not only like in the Holy of Holies, which was the center of the temple, it was in the center of the Holy of Holies. So this was the connection point between Heaven and earth. This was the place where, you know, kings were ord, priests were ordained as well and sealed with the oil of the tree of life itself. So there's layers and layers of symbolism there. And this understanding that the feminine aspect of the tree, this ability to contain all and to be in relationship with everything, right, that we move through these realms symbolically in our life as we progress, as we learn, as we draw knowledge from heaven, from the branches, and learn how to incorporate that into how we are in our relationships on Earth. And then how, like the wisdom of our ancestors and those who have come before us also informs who we are and what we can become on Earth. So there's this very feminine aspect of relationality, that we are who we are, not alone, but in relationship. And, you know, if we go to the botanical nature of the tree, we see that it is so deeply connected through its root zone to the grove around it, not only to the same species, but to other species, that it communicates information through that root zone and helps the whole grove to thrive. And there's a way in which that knowledge is woven through the root zone and held as memory in the roots and transferred to future generations. So there's so many ways in which the tree can hold that feminine sensibility and also helps us define what wisdom is. If we look at just these symbols, we can see, okay, well, the tree is teaching us and showing us that relationality is key, is paramount, and that how we draw in wisdom can be from our neighbors, from those around us, but also from the ancestors and from the gods. And so bringing all of that different. All the different ways of knowing, the different kinds of knowing together is bringing things in right relationship. And so that's how I would define wisdom, through this imagery that when we are able to see, to have a vision of the tree and to have that vision sort of grow and expand, we're able to put together the ways in which things ought to be in right relationship inside of our own soul. If we see ourselves as a tree of life and the way that we're organizing ourselves on Earth, but also together in a community, perhaps a Zion community, what does that look like? To be in right relationship with others and then vertically as the axis of the tree with the divine.
- [15:01]
B
Wow. Okay. For. For a man listening to this episode, Catherine, and saying, like, oh, this is. This is for women. Like, this is divine femininity. Like, this is not for me women. Can you talk about the. I guess, maybe, like, define terms a little bit. Like, you've mentioned divine feminine, Divine femininity and men and women generally, how are those related?
- [15:23]
D
Yeah, so I would say that. And you know, this is ancient knowing, an ancient understanding that we have masculine and feminine energies and characteristics, each as men and women. So a man isn't purely masculine, a female isn't purely feminine. So I kind of want to leave gender out of. In the sense that I think it's not super. It's not contingent on any of us experiencing the divine feminine. So when we are operating from a place of wanting unity and communion and wholeness and integration, we're operating from a vantage of the feminine because the feminine archetypes hyperle is this understanding that everything is connected and that we in community truly exist. And I think that is beautifully embodied in Christ and Christ's mission of, you know, creating not only like having harmony inside of yourself as the place of the kingdom, right, that the kingdom is inside you, but that we are all the body of Christ and that together we operate in a way that allows Christ to live and to be real and to be operating. So for a man to choose in his life to make choices that help him to be more connected to his community, to his family, to do things in the world that bring goodness and beauty and light, is to be using the masculine sentiment of sort of action and progression and movement coupled with the deep desire to be in communion and to be connected to others. And I think the. The placement of the feminine inside the symbol of the tree at the center of the temple really illustrates strongly how necessary understanding the feminine aspect of each of us is to our progression and our movement through. Toward the. That holy space in the center of the temple.
- [17:37]
A
If I. If I think about what we tend to center, you know, in our. In our faith tradition in particular, you know, I come back to Jesus Christ. Obviously, there's. And I think, you know, there's been a continued emphasis on. On bringing Christ to the center over the past couple of decades in a lot of really positive ways, I think, and in many ways, Jesus and the symbol of the cross is really interesting here that Jesus is sort of this intersection. It sits at the intersection of opposites. So I'm curious, and this could be for either of you, in what ways? You maybe see Jesus as expressing an integration of the divine masculine and the divine feminine.
- [18:19]
C
Can I respond?
- [18:20]
D
Sure.
- [18:21]
C
Okay. A few years ago, I was teaching a Sunday school class and I. I presented a slide that had little vignettes lined up. It was like slices of major important images of Jesus at key points in his life, death, resurrection, and One of those was his infancy, sitting on his mother's lap. Another was Gethsemane, where Jesus was in the grove, another on the cross nailed to the wood. Another was in glory, enthroned in heaven and said, these are images of Jesus, but they are also images of his mother. Because right in every single one of those was a symbol of the mother. Jesus, so often shown on Mary's lap, anytime he's shown as a child, he's on Mary's lap. She is the throne of Christ. So when he's in glory, shown on a throne, you have to see the throne as the mother. When Jesus is nailed to the wood, the New Testament tells us he's nailed to a tree, and that in Jesus's passion, as he's pierced, a sword pierces Mary's soul. Also, that cross is a symbol of the mother. When Jesus is in Gethsemane and he's laid out on the roots of the trees, his bloody sweat falls on their roots. He's surrounded by a mother symbol. So I think the imagery associated with Jesus points us toward the fact that that femininity is always present with him and sharing in his suffering. Incarnation, glory, resurrection, all of it.
- [20:12]
D
There's also, and this is again, the mapping of Eden and the temple. When you look at the cross, if you picture it as sort of flat on the ground and you, you know, we know that the tree in Eden, the tree of life in the center of Eden, from it came the four rivers. So the fountain of life was at the foot of the tree, and those four rivers marked the four cardinal directions. So again, that really is the quintessential axis mundi, because from that center point, we map out where we are in space and time. If you look at. Across the center, at where those four pieces come together would be that sort of central space of the Holy of Holies on that cross. And I just think it's really lovely that Christ's body is sort of across that space. If you were to think of Christ's body on that cross and the location of his heart on that cross, something to. To. I don't know. It's. It's really made me pause this week and. And consider what that could mean. Yeah.
- [21:22]
B
Will you say more about the. I think it helps to. To understand divine femininity when you. When you can flesh out divine masculinity, too. And I think that's a conversation that's happening culturally right now. What does healthy masculinity look like? And so I'd love for you to Talk about it here in this context. If divine femininity looks like this deep wisdom and connection and receptivity, what does divine masculinity look like?
- [21:49]
C
Oh, I have to address this one. Yeah. I think of the two activities in archetypal terms, the two domains of reality, the masculine and the feminine, as being encompassed by the instructions given to Adam and Eve, which were kind of twofold. One was dress and keep the garden, have dominion over the earth. So, like they have, they had to set things in order, but then it was also multiply and replenish. So it was set things in order and fill it with life. That's kind of the two halves. And it's not like Adam's job was to set things in order and Eve's job was to fill with life. They both participate in both activities, but when it comes to the production of life, women preside. When it comes to creating and preserving the habitable order that allows that life to be conceived and grow and flourish, men can lead out. And that's sort of a biological necessity because of the vulnerability of pregnancy. It works best when there is somebody there to help that woman to create a space where pregnancy can happen without her fighting for her life, say, in a state of nature. So I think the intensity of that dichotomy, that practical reality, has created our experience of these archetypes. Or maybe it's opened our eyes to the existence of these two domains and the value of being able to focus on one of them at a time and being able to share the work of focusing on one at a time. Not that men only do the one and women only do the other, but I suspect that kind of is the root of our experience of divine masculinity or healthy masculinity. And so extending that, seeing the divine as sort of an amplification and glorification of just our real lives. You could say divine masculinity is the creation, cosmically, of a habitable order that is good and suitable for life. And divine femininity is leading out in filling that with life, in bringing all the things in it that are arranged in order into appropriate relationships that are lively and dynamic and healthy.
- [24:24]
B
Okay, I want to stay on this because I can. I think probably anyone growing up in a patriarchal culture has some baggage around what you just said, you know, and I think it's probably because we have a corrupted version of. Of these. Of these two divine things. But I can feel it, like, I can feel my heart racing about the idea that. That, like, that. I. I guess it's even just like an acknowledgement that there's a difference, that there is an innate vulnerability around pregnancy that's really uncomfortable. Like, it may.
- [24:59]
C
It.
- [24:59]
D
Yeah.
- [25:00]
B
Like, I can feel it in my body. And I know that you're not talking about a corrupted version, but say more about what. What it can look like to have both of these energies flowing through you as a. As a man, but also as women. Like, I. I think maybe the corrupted version becomes more and more black and white. It becomes more and more of these prescriptive roles where you have to fit or something breaks. And so I know that there's. There's. There's some kind of flow and a push and a pull, but, like, I can feel my allergy to. To the idea that at the end of the day, there's still. There's still two things. There's still two different things.
- [25:39]
C
That's. That's fair. And so I don't want to speak. I'm not. I don't want to be defensive, because I think you're right to have your hackles up. I want to be clear. I'm speaking descriptively, not prescriptively. It's just a practical reality that most of the time, children are created through the pairing of a man and a woman. And so I'm just trying to describe how our experience of that for tens of thousands of years has maybe contributed to how we see reality, but it shouldn't be seen as a straight jacket that people need to fit themselves in or feel like they don't fit. And also. So I think you alluded to something which is that dynamic, and Catherine mentioned it, too. Masculinity and femininity are each present in all of us. And so those domains of reality that we woke up to through facing some practical realities about life, we can also see them in ourselves. I have one example of. We were watching the movie Tangled a few years ago, and in that movie, a princess has been taken from the center of the city. She's no longer in the palace, and all the people are downcast and sad. And so her parents, in order to draw her back into the palace, invite all the youth of the kingdom to light lanterns so that her heart will be captivated and led back into the city, and her heart won't turn back and she won't be gone any longer. And it works. And the princess comes in and is enchanted by the lanterns, and she dances on her feet, and all the people love her. That sounds familiar. Yes. Okay. That's a story of Mary. It's also Disney's Rapunzel in the movie Tangled, which I loved. And we were watching this, and I was making that connection between Mary's story and Rapunzel. And I was openly weeping in front of my young sons. And what I realized was that's a major and serious archetype that I need to pay attention to. The maiden dancing in the center of the city and all the people loving her and joining the dance and lighting lanterns and that I needed being like a little microcosm of the holy city myself. I needed to light lanterns and bring the maiden in and. And invite her to dance. So I was seeing a piece of. That could be a piece of my soul that I had not been paying attention to. Piece of femininity.
- [28:14]
B
Wow. That. Thank you for sharing that.
- [28:15]
D
Yeah, that's.
- [28:16]
B
That is really beautiful. It feels. It feels like this is tender territory for our community, actually. I think because we're trying to do it within the walls of an existing patriarchy. So this is tricky.
- [28:30]
D
Yeah. I think I want to bring us back to Christ and to this idea that Tim brought up, that he was sort of like the perfect reconciliation of the masculine and feminine, that in him those two sides were in harmony. And I strongly believe that's why he was rejected and why he was crucified. That the state of our fallen world is such that we prize power and control over connection and integration and love. And that's just the reality we're in. And like, I think anyone who has felt the power of the spirit testify of Christ knows that that is the reality. Like his love and his promises are real. And then there is this delusion that is sort of on top of that as we move this world that we have to navigate and see past and see through, that tells us that we're alone, that there's no one caring for us, there's no one coming for us. There's no help. And that having control over your life and doing things your way, quote, unquote, will get you what you want. And so, you know, this expresses itself and shows itself in very different ways for different people. But it's something we all have to work through as we move through this life. And so I think we have to be very conscious of the fact that Christ is very directly trying to point us to the work of our lives, which is to. To look at these traits, the yin and yang, all of the archetypally feminine and masculine traits, and ask ourselves, are we honoring them? What does that look like in our family, with our friends, in our Church community and really do that introspective work and really sit with where we are in terms of what we think is feminine, what we think is masculine. And as men, how can we better honor the feminine in ourselves and in our wives and our daughters? How can we make space for it? Because it, because it is by its nature subtle and hidden in secret and needs to be sought after. And if we commit to that seeking, we also commit to the mother. We commit to what she represents and who she is in the creation, not only of the universe, but in the creation of our own souls.
- [31:29]
A
So that makes me wonder what an aim of aspiring followers of Christ might be, given the state of the world as you described it. That at least on a relative basis, the, that sort of integration and harmony expressed by Christ is, is devalued relative to sort of the power and control. Is, is a potential aim to remake the world in a more harmonious and integrated way? Or is that, is that a masculine take on like what one might do when faced with this quandary? Or is there something more subtle that we should be working on?
- [32:08]
D
Yeah, I think that's a great question, Tim. I, I think it is. And Bob can add his thoughts, but I think it may be as simple as focusing on becoming rather than doing that. Maybe we take a minute and really do that work of, you know, using the tree symbol, going down into the roots, going down into the shadow space inside of our souls and really examining what we really believe. What are, what stories are we allowing to have shape us and to form our opinions and views of the world? What traditions from our fathers and, and foremothers maybe be harmful, which ones are helpful, really looking at those, the narratives that were, that we're choosing to believe and maybe creating some space for some openings inside of our hearts for something different, for the Spirit to direct us and to really rely on a daily basis for that guidance as if it were food and water and breath, as if it really was that essential to our well being. And that is, I think the rising sort of global interest in the feminine and the divine feminine is as we come to this crux, I think, in our world and how it is right now and the ways that we see world leaders choosing to not honor integration and unity and love. We're really coming to a point where we have to choose as individuals to be the receptacles of these virtues and this light and this truth and this beauty and that. That is the most powerful thing we can do.
- [34:04]
C
People are very excited about conquering the world. And they're not excited about conquering themselves, and they're. The idea of taking a hard look inside at the principalities and powers that you've given your life to and how they might be leading you down all kinds of disintegrating paths is not exciting. The idea of fasting and praying, the idea of letting yourself die to sin, letting yourself die to those things which aren't bringing you eternal life, is not exciting. And it's not sexy, because the protest is held entirely in your heart, and you can't get a camera in there to post pictures on Instagram. But ultimately, I think that if the world will be remade in Christ's image, it will be by people who have done that, and the side effect will be that that radiates into the world outside of them.
- [35:11]
D
Yeah, I'd love for you to.
- [35:14]
B
I really want to talk about ritual, because that was one of my favorite parts about your. About what you did at Restore. But. And so maybe that would be part of the answer. But I think my question for you is, like, for me, this feels the most complicated in conflict. And I think it's probably because I can sense that power feels threatened. And so my impulse is to really exile the feminine. Like, I want to match the. And it feels like I need to do that in this masculine energy. And so what does that look like? To let feminine energy be flowing in moments where what feels threatened seems like it can't be protected by connection and receptivity? And even. Like it feels like dependence, even to me sometimes. So what does that look like in those moments? Because that's when I feel the most lost.
- [36:09]
D
That's a great question. What comes to mind? And I, you know, don't want to be prescriptive about this at all, because I think it's as variable as there are humans. But I. But I do think of the tree. I think of the. Well, I think of the tree being sort of this conduit to heaven, that truth and light and beauty passes through that tree, and that the waters spread that truth and knowledge and light to the four corners of the earth, and that it is what gives nourishment and life to the earth and sustains the eternal structure of the cosmos. And I don't think that means necessarily that a woman has to always be subdued or. Or polite or quiet or subtle. I think that there are times when the feminine aspect of yourself needs the masculine to communicate what is true, to defend what is honorable and beautiful and right. And so I think that they rely on each other in Unique and endlessly diverse ways that being direct in how you speak or in how you act or how you choose to manifest truth is a beautiful combination of that inner listening and then the doing, right, like the becoming, requires action in the world. It requires us to address, to be anxiously engaged in good causes.
- [37:53]
B
And.
- [37:53]
D
And you are the only judge of what is right for you and how that looks in your life, in your context, in your family. And I think that's part of the waking up of the world is learning how to sit with the discomfort of the feminine saying, this is not okay. The way you treat and dishonor the feminine, children, women, the earth, it's all connected is not okay. I think that's part of our jobs as disciples of Christ, who is the fruit of the mother tree. That is part of our discipleship. And in my strong and humble opinion,
- [38:36]
C
in a moment of conflict, I think the best response, like, imagine the best response, the one that makes peace, that works for people, everybody will tend to balance the masculine, which is. It is strong. It's being firm about what is right and true, but also the feminine, it's being willing to see where the other person is coming from in a real and honest way, saying things like, if I hear you right, and then try to articulate what they're saying better than they did. That's an outward reaching across the line that doesn't sacrifice your commitment to what you've experienced and understood, but it. You allow yourself to be the whole bridge between you and the other person that you're in conflict with. I mean, I want to try that someday. It might work.
- [39:34]
B
Thank you. I love both of those. Both of those answers.
- [39:38]
A
Yeah, we had a really interesting text thread going a few weeks ago in which someone posed the question what? I think they said, like, what would be different about church if women were in charge? Or something like that? And, you know, there are a lot of ideas, and I think it's. And I think it's a, you know, it's a really interesting exploration. And it. And it made me sort of like, ask the question. The church and most religious institutions, maybe all religious institutions, have a lot of masculine in them at their core, in part because in order for there to be an institution, in order for there to be order there, you know, there has to be some masculine energy involved. And so I guess the. The question that I have is, should we be aspiring to integrate more feminine into our religious institutions, or is there some other place that that can live and still be a really meaningful part of our lives?
- [40:36]
B
I'M curious about that too. Like, because an institution itself is. It is a structure by definition, so. So will it always be at odds with the feminine?
- [40:48]
D
Maybe. I'll go back again to Christ. I just find it very fascinating that so much of what he was up against was what was institutionalized by the Church. That there was a hardening and a brittleness that was constructed around doctrine because of an institution, and that they couldn't hear him or see him or know who he truly was. Or worse, they had some inkling that he was right and rebelled against it, didn't want it, refused it. I think that's a warning. I think that's definitely something that we see repeated over and over again, that when there is an imbalance, whether it's inside a soul or inside a. A structure that relies mostly on the masculine, there is, as we see, and I think DNC points to this as well, that when there's power concentrated, it's rare, that it's not abused. And I think the masculine cannot flourish and be a true manifestation of what it ought to be without the feminine, and vice versa. The feminine cannot completely flourish without the necessary balance of the masculine. And we are very out of balance. And again, I think that's partly part of the nature of the fallen world. What we're here to learn and to identify and to repent of and to sort of learn how to navigate. So I think that there is room for what we have in this fallen world to be bettered, to operate in a way that is more healthy for men and women. I think men and women are harmed by patriarchy in the way that women don't feel free to sort of express truth openly. And that also institutions are by nature products of a telestial world. I don't think they're coming with us to heaven. So I think we have to sort of have that perspective, that something that we can hardly conceive of is what the actual kingdom of God looks like. And that the masculine and feminine are equally valued and held and understood to be nothing without the other in the relationship of divine parents and the ordering of the cosmos.
- [43:35]
B
Thank you. That is such a good point. Like, we're wrestling with a very earthly thing. And I think a lot of the angst sometimes comes from this assumption that it's eternal. And we. We don't even believe that. Like, it's just. It just. It's so present for us. It's hard to. It's hard to keep this in mind. I want to ask you about ritual. So, okay, my My question really is, what is ritual meant to be? And. And are there specific practices you think that could help us sort of stay committed to. To this excavation process and bringing ourselves into right relationship with both of these energies?
- [44:11]
C
So ritual is simply the way we translate meaning into reality and action in our lives. And it encompasses the whole sphere of human life. And ultimately, I think it is really useful to see everything as ritual because then we let ourselves wake up to how every bit of our lives, every moment of it is sacramental. All of it is connected with our highest and most intimate worship. So there are moments like holding hands across an altar, or reaching through the veil and embracing God and then passing into God's presence, or taking God's flesh and blood and bringing it into our body. Right? These are high theophanic moments, moments of complete unity. Well, okay, what if every time you embraced somebody, you were committed to recognizing, inasmuch as you have done it unto the least of these, you've done it unto me. You're embracing an icon of God. So your highest rituals are now connecting to the everyday reality of relating to other people. If we're defining what is ritual, Ritual is the encompassing action of our lives. How we translate our deepest meanings into the most mundane moments. When it comes to practices, maybe we can like, re. Approach the definition of wisdom. It is. It's how we bring things into right relationship in ourselves. It's like how we organize the multiplicity inside of us and around us into. Into harmony.
- [45:55]
D
I, for me, I've written poetry since I was a child. And I think that was just an innate way that I was able to tap in to what I'm really thinking and feeling and like that inner world and to make sense of that and organize it and have it come forth as something that is a creative project or sort of an outward manifestation of the inner workings. And that taught me, I think, from a young age that introspection is not only okay, that I can handle what I find inside of myself, but that it's necessary for creation. It's necessary for creating a new path, a new way of thinking, a new way of living, a new vision of what is real and lasting. And I've found that continuing as I've explored different forms of contemplation and meditation, and I'm able to sort of just bring awareness to the actions and the way that I'm treating my children, for example, or what feels triggering, what feels restrictive in my body. Learning to just. To just notice what's happening and not being carried away by reactions Which I think is pretty natural for most of us to have a reaction and later sort of, you know, do the mental work of explaining why X, Y, and Z happened. But maybe not sitting so much with the emotion that initially arises. And I think the awareness that that is a pattern gives us so much power over the pattern that we can then begin to realize, okay, at this point, I have a choice, and to make a different choice and see what new weaving, what new pattern arises from that different way of moving through the world. And that stillness, which I think is very native to LDS culture. Right. Like, we're taught from a young age that the spirit is still and quiet. It's always present, it's always there. And it's our own inner voice. There's this turning inward that allows us to know what's true, know what's real. Like, that's a gift everyone has. We can hone that gift of discernment.
- [48:25]
C
I want to sort of highlight one of the things you said, which was, that was all beautiful. And one of the things you said was that you are actively involved in creation, the continuation of creation and the creating Poetry is one thing, but that helps hone your sense of how you continue creating in the rest of your life. And I think that's another aspect of ritual that's really important. Ritual being how we mediate between meaning and matter and action. It's how we continue the work of creation. And so one thing I've done, as I've tried to apply that, one thing I've done is wake myself up to how every day is a little microcosm of all of creation. Like, it begins together, falls apart, and then we bring it back together. Likewise, every week and every year, there's sort of this arc and rhythm to life. And so I'm trying to meditate on what does a sanctified day look like? What does a day that's glorified look like? How does a week really take on the character of the heavenly, eternal round? And one thing that it means is when we have an opportunity to invite people over for dinner or to have a family meal, how can we make it the most beautiful communion possible? And so I've been trying to develop in myself the gift of hospitality, the spirit, a spiritual gift, because that will get me in the mindset of taking care of people, of providing for people, of creating warmth, of both creating an ordered environment. But that's not strict. It's lively and helping to fill it with life that is joyful. If heaven is going to be a continuation of the sociality we have here. Then let's start having heavenly associations right now. So that's one practical step I've taken. Is I'm trying to be more hospitable at all moments in my life. And let my presence be a little tent that's warm and comfortable and hospitable.
- [50:49]
B
Thank you so much. That resonates so deeply. If that's the understanding of ritual. There's just not a way to look at these things like they're transactional. It feels like it immediately aligns you with this. With what Steve Young calls the law of love. I just love the way you put that. Thank you. Katherine, anything you want to add?
- [51:11]
D
I think that's. I really love the way Bob describes that. One thing for me, perhaps ritual that is more intentional. About connecting to that sense of unity, I think. Does this work that Rumi talks about? There's this short poem by Rumi that I really love. That I actually have had written in my scriptures since before my mission. Because it's just. It calls to me. And I feel like it is the voice of the spirit in so many ways. It says, the breeze at dawn has secrets to tell you. Don't go back to sleep. You must ask for what you really want. Don't go back to sleep. People are going back and forth across the door sill. Where the two worlds touch. The door is round and open. Don't go back to sleep. I feel like ritual does that work of pulling us into the stream of eternal implications and eternal fabric. And into this reality. This waking up of what we do. Like how deeply it matters all the things. And I think there's such wisdom in starting our days with a ritual that plugs us into. Or dips us down into this stream that's always flowing. Whether that's prayer, whether that's meditation, writing, a walk in nature. Whatever it is that you can do to start your day. To begin that orientation towards what is real. I think it's. It's so valuable. And as Rumi says, rituals are a manifestation of what you really want. So pause and think about what you're doing On a daily basis, on a weekly basis. And own that that is what you really want. Some part of you is pulling you in that direction. Whether that's the small self, the ego. The sort of the seat of our desires and our fears and our insecurities. Or if it's the deeper self, it's. If it's the divine self that is saying there's something more, there's something to wait for. There's something that will require us to feel more pain and joy, but that holds the true reward. Where are we turning as we start our day?
- [53:55]
B
Yeah. Thank you so much. This is so beautiful. And I mean, I've learned so much from you both about, about both feminine, masculine energy over the years and of course, Catherine through your book. We're just really grateful you'd both come on and. And do that with us. Thank you so much.
- [54:12]
C
Yeah, definitely.
- [54:13]
D
Thank you so much.
- [54:15]
B
All right. Thanks so much for listening. We hope that you enjoyed this conversation with Catherine and Bob Sontag. If it resonated with you, we would especially like to recommend Catherine's book the Mother Tree, which was published by Faith Matters, where she explores a lot of the themes that we get to in this conversation. And if Faith Matters is resonating with you, we would love for you to rate and review the podcast wherever you listen. Thanks again for listening.