Loading summary
Transcript61 lines
- [00:00]
A
Hey, everybody.
- [00:01]
B
The third annual Wayfarer Summer Festival is coming up on July 11th, and you are not going to want to miss this. We're bringing in some amazing speakers like Thomas McConkie, Christine Hogland, and Katherine Sontag to talk about spiritual attention in the age of AI, the history and future of Mormon utopianism, and what a Latter Day Saint cultural renaissance might look like. Plus, just lots of amazing time to connect with friends old and new. And we've got catered lunches, poetry readings, musical performances, breakout sessions, an art gallery, and everything taking place in the gorgeous Heber Valley. Space for this is extremely limited, so you won't want to delay. You can get tickets@wayfairmagazine.org or look for the link in the show notes. Hey, everybody. This is Aubrey Chavez from Faith Matters. Today we're delighted to share a conversation with Robyn Rich about her brand new book, using Friction to Stories of Strength and Resilience. Many of us spend our lives trying to avoid friction. We want our faith to feel clear, our communities to feel supportive, and our spiritual lives to move forward without too much tension or uncertainty. But today, Robin's asking, what if our deepest growth comes not in spite of friction, but because of it? And that's at the heart of her book. Through interviews with a remarkable generation of Latter Day Saint women, many old enough now to be grandmothers, Robyn uncovers stories of faith, resilience and spiritual maturity that feel so relevant today. These women face difficult questions and competing loyalties and real tension between their deepest convictions and the world around them. Yet rather than allowing that friction to diminish their faith, they used it to deepen their relationship with God and expand their capacity to serve. Robyn herself has spent a career building and leading transformative organizations at Microsoft intel, and most recently as president and publisher of Deseret News Publishing Company. But this book grew out of a lifelong fascination with women's spiritual lives and the wisdom that can be found in their stories. So whether you're currently navigating friction in your own faith journey or simply looking for examples of courage and grace, we think that this conversation will be both reassuring and inspiring. And with that, we'll jump right into our conversation with Robyn Rich.
- [02:03]
A
All right, well, Robin, welcome to the podcast. We're so excited. Have you. And we're so excited about this book. So thanks so much for being here with us.
- [02:10]
C
Thanks for letting me come. It's so fun.
- [02:12]
A
Yeah, I was captivated by the title of your book, and I think that it was exactly what I hoped, but this is about A generation of women that I, even though they're so close to us, I really didn't know very much about. And so I'd love for you to just start right there with the title and also give us a little bit of a framing for the kind of friction that these women that you were interviewing were experiencing.
- [02:35]
C
Yeah, I'd love to. So the title of the book is Using Friction to Grow strength and resilience. LDS case studies of women from 1968 to 1974, which is kind of a weird time frame to pick. The reason I picked it is because I'm looking. Was looking at women that were LDs that made their career choices, like, am I going to go have a career? What am I doing between 1968 and 1974? And the reason was, is during those time periods, first of all, those women would be our grandmother's generation now. So, like 80.
- [03:06]
A
So.
- [03:07]
C
So if there's something. And it turns out when I was interviewing all the women, I interviewed a bunch of women, most of them said who impacted them in their life was their grandmothers. So there's something really cool and really precious. They're one generation removed from us around grandmothers. And so I wanted to interview these women that were struggling with two huge things during that time period. So just a short refresher for those of us that were not around during that time period. That was the time when there was the Vietnam War. There was civil. Civil rights movement was through the late 60s. Right at the end of the civil rights movement came the female movement. So women at that time couldn't have a checking account, couldn't have a mortgage, couldn't get financial aid for college. You couldn't actually go to all the colleges. They couldn't do whatever major they wanted. They weren't able to. You could be fired for being pregnant or getting married. So this. That's what's happening in the United States at the time for those women. And then, then at the same time in the church, there was kind of a push for correlation. So they collapsed everything into that. So that was going on in the church. So at the, at the time, why I thought it was so interesting is one, they're our grandmother's generation, but also two, they had two huge social issues that they had to deal with. They had blacks in the priesthood, and then they had. Right in the early 70s, the church really, as the women's movement started to get rolling, the church really came out and was like, women should only be in the home. That's where. That's where they're needed. That's where they need to be. They should be doing public service. They shouldn't be doing any of these things in the home only. And so that was a huge social tension for, for those women as well because they were trying to decide what do I do? Am I working? And I also think what's super interesting that happened at the time is they positioned it as it was, or you were either doing this like having a career or you were being at home and it wasn't positioned as an and like that. You can do both or you can do both at different times. But it was definitely, if you're toeing the line and you're doing an ideal life, it looks this certain way for women. Yeah.
- [05:12]
D
So the thesis of the book, you know, we can, as members of the church, use friction to grow. Did that grow out of your study of this time period or did you look for the time period because you already had a thesis?
- [05:22]
C
No, great question. No, I had no thesis. I was out to lunch with Christine Durham. She was the first Chief justice of the Supreme Court of Utah. And we were out to lunch. She was explaining what went on in the 70s for her and how she was very involved in. Always has been very involved in marginalized communities. Sadly, women were marginalized. And she was talking about some of things that kind of went down. And I was shocked and also dismayed would be the other word. And the question I said to her was like, I don't understand how you stayed in the church when there was some direct attacks on you. And she actually said, well, we knew our grandmother's stories. And so we just did what they were doing. And it just felt like a light bulb moment. I've had very few of those in my life. But this was one where I was like, oh, we don't have these women's stories. We don't have these women's stories. And they're also not going to be around for that much longer to have their stories. So I went and interviewed and wrote the book in like two and a half months. I just went like hardcore. And I found out after the fact that that's fast to write a book. But I felt like it was very God directed so that I didn't. If I felt like the time period chose me because I didn't know about it and because this is really recent history that this went on. And I felt like it so much correlates to our day of there's still social issues and there's still like a narrative sometimes around what Looks ideal and nobody fits into. Yeah, I'm not sure what that's all about, but, you know, and so we still have that going on.
- [06:54]
A
Yeah, I, I think that I'm probably not alone in this fantasy of living a frictionless life that like, you know, endlessly seeking some version of life where there just isn't any conflict or stress or friction. And, and it's clear from every, every story is really different. And there, there's. I feel like every woman had some period where they were deciding, you know, what, what. Where they felt called. But I feel like you are also approach as a, as the storyteller. You're also bringing to it your own experience with friction growing up in the church. So I'd love to hear if you would just give us a little bit of context for where you were coming from.
- [07:27]
C
Yeah. So I grew up in Seattle, Washington, so not a ton of LDS people, and my dad was Catholic and my mom was lds, and so I, I felt like it was such a gift, frankly. I got grow up, grew up going one week to Catholic church and one week to church. And because of that, I, I actually kind of was able to have this viewpoint of holding two truths in my brain, which was like, there's good over here and there's good over here, and I'm just going to take what I like and mesh it together. I had an experience why I ended up joining the LDS Church with the Book of Mormon. And so I'm like, oh, well, this is the thing, so I'm going to do this. But so I think having that and also growing up in a place where, um, it's a little bit more free thinking. Seattle is like the least religious city in the United States. So it, it was, it was an interesting place to grow up and be able to form my own. Hey, what, what do I really think this is? What. How do. What is. How does this really fit for me? And so I always thought I was able to. I always thought because of the way I grew up with my Catholic dad and a LDS mom, that my job was to like, sift through and pick it myself when I wanted. So I never really. It wasn't until later I went to BYU and that I was like, oh, I care. Apparently there's a really stringent way that lots of people get things, and I just never really did.
- [08:44]
A
There's this line, you're telling a story growing up, and I can't remember the exact context, but you say something like, you learn to trust that the revolt in your body was your was the way that you could gauge truth.
- [08:55]
C
Yeah.
- [08:56]
A
And we just had this conversation with Deidre Green, who named that. She calls it epistemic confidence. And that to me was a thread through this entire book that I think literally every single woman you interview has some version of how she learns to trust that she has access to truth and. And that she can tell for herself what's right or wrong.
- [09:16]
C
Yeah.
- [09:16]
A
And so I'd love for you to just talk about that. I don't know if it's from examples from the women you spoke with or your own experience, but what does developing or strengthening that muscle look like for someone who. That's not necessarily coming naturally to.
- [09:31]
C
I did. I listened to the episode you're talking about. It was it. I was so happy to hear a word. I didn't know what, that that was an actual word. But I. I think one of the things that struck me about, of the women was the first thing that they hit almost for all of them was blacks in the priesthood. So. Yes. And all of them, the ones I'm talking about, all of them had real huge issues with the church's policy. And they would do different things to go try and figure it out. Like, go talk to this mission president, go talk to a mission, you know, a temple president. Go talk to their institute leader. Go. Like, they tried and searched it out as much as they could. All of em kind of went through a process of like, I need more information. How do I approach this? And then ultimately prayed, prayed, prayed, prayed, and sometimes even like with their significant others or spouses. But they learned, I feel like they learned how on that issue to get an answer. I mean, all of them got an answer, was like, yeah, they're just as valued as you are. So they got that answer before that was. That's the other reason I chose that time period is because I cut it off before blacks in the priesthood ended. So that there were two big social issues. But I feel like they learned early on the process for them of how to get the answer, even though the answer wasn't mainstream then. And so I think it's just a process of realizing, hey, I do know how he talks to me, and then being okay with that. And I think very much, many, many of the women, and this is probably true of every woman or man in the church. Many, many of the women had amazing experiences with priesthood leaders. And many of the women had, I would say, not amazing experiences with priesthood leaders. And so I think they would all kind of be able to articulate. They'd get the answer. And then there would always be somebody that would let them know that that was the wrong answer. And learning they, and they learned how to say okay, but that go back, get the answer or just be able to, you know, with more experience. I feel like it was a muscle for them. And for me it's a muscle too. It's like, no, when I hear something that I'm like, no, that's not right. I'm aware of it. So I think they just really learned the process for them and then stuck to it and didn't expect that everyone was going to be like, hey, yeah, good job. Yeah. Because that was not the case.
- [11:50]
D
Could you talk about this? So obviously one of the main, and it's right there in the title, the main idea is that friction is a good thing, you know, in many ways for, for all of us. I think that like, biologically we're always looking for more comfort, you know, so it's like that's, it's not intuitive in that way. And spiritually we have a lot of foundation that we've laid scripturally, et cetera, that kind of says, oh, you know, the fruits of the spirit are love, joy, peace. And when you hear those things, it's not like, oh, friction, that's a fruit of the spirit. Like, that's what I need to lean into. And so we have a lot of just built up stuff inside us that says run away from friction. So how do you deal with, especially on the spiritual side, like, how can you embrace this idea that friction is in fact good for our growth?
- [12:32]
C
It's a really great question. I think, I think you're right. I think we over index a lot of times on the happy joy. It's a, it's great and, and those are the great things. But I think we don't get there unless we have friction. So just even from a physical law perspective, I mean, friction means that you're going to slow down, it's going to cause you to slow down. And, and from like if you're a rock, it's going to rough off those red edges and then you're going to be able eventually to go faster. Right. And also friction can slow you all the way down to a stop. And I think that's a lot of times that does happen spiritually sometimes. And you have to examine do I need to go on or is this too much friction? And there's some other option for me. But I think from a spiritual perspective, what I've always gone back to is we do believe there's opposition in all things. That's foundational. Right? I mean, that we. We said, yeah, I want agency, which means you have to be able to choose. So there has to be opposition. And I think sometimes we think in the church there should be no opposition all things. And it's by design that it is. It is not going to ever go away. And the reason why that's the title is because I wanted to reframe the idea of, like, it's not comfortable here. Like, I feel alone, or they. They have a different policy than I think, or that. That I. Or I had a different answer of who God really is. And what they just said doesn't make sense. I think from a spiritual perspective, if you step back and look at your life and think, when is the time I've been able to know who God is more? It's when you're in the friction because it slows you down and you're like, wait, something doesn't match here. And in those moments, you're able to get to the place of like, yeah, what I think I know about God looks different than what's going on here. And so you can add to your knowledge. I think the only way that happens is by friction, because it makes you stop and slow down and be like, yeah, this isn't working. So then what is it? And then who is he? The other thing I'd say is, I mean, and we've all been in this boat probably where you think this could go a little bit better here at this ward mine, you know, like little things, and you just think this. And again, we're all volunteers and we're not using our skill sets to the best because we're just doing volunteer work. And we've all been in those boats. And so there is a kind of a tension between, when you think about the church piece of it versus your own spiritual friction. How can I lessen some of that friction? Because sometimes it's too much for some people, that friction. You just think, we don't need all that friction. And I think that's the reality. Tension point. We need friction. But how do I improve some people's experience so that they don't go all the way to a stop?
- [15:11]
D
Yeah, yeah, that makes sense. Is there any, I don't know, worry in your mind about, like, taking it a little bit too, like, taking that understanding a little bit too far and sort of becoming complacent? It's like, oh, actually, I, like, I feel like I've slipped into this in some cases, actually, where it's like friction's the point. And so, like, I'm not really gonna do anything about this thing because friction, it turns out, is good. And so like, I'm just gonna keep sort of like trudging along in the friction. But in your framework, the way I understand it, it is actually very action oriented at the same time.
- [15:38]
C
Yeah, it's a really good question. So there was a couple women specifically I can think of, when they were telling their stories, where they were saying they saw things that potentially really could use a change. And they spent a lot of years hoping for that change, but at the same time advocating. So I would say one of the things that these women did that was very unique from some, maybe that were in the same situation were in, but ended up leaving their faith community was that they saw the need to be articulate on their sphere of influence, to be an educator in their sphere of influence, and to really be impactful. So be proactive and say, I know how to get an answer and this is what it looks like and be influential. And a lot of these women had really big spheres of influence because of what they did in their lives. And they use those to not trying to advocate for something, but really advocating for the process for go get your own answer. I think all of them, all of them were like, yep, the prophet said something. And so then my job is to go figure out what that looks like in my life, what's the application? And I think that was the process that they really advocated for. The other thing I would say, because I wanted to know why they stayed in. One of you guys pointed this out already. They're all very unique, which was so surprising because I thought, well, they're going to have all these characteristics similar. And that's why they went through this, this, and they did this. And that was not the case. They all were very unique, which also struck me very strongly. Why would did we think we could put all women in a little box? So I do think that they were all about the process being very educating other people. And then one of them, you know, worked as a church historian. She said, you know, we there, there needs to be push from the outside. When you're talking about church moving, then that's different than spirituality. I want to be clear. There's your own spirituality and then there's this vehicle that helps us become more spiritual and connected. Those two things are separate. In my mind, she was saying, hey, we have to push for women and as a church historian, like, move things along in the organization. So when you're in your ward or whatever, whatever. Move things along to a better place for people to have better experiences with their savior. And then she said, and then outside, there needs to be a little bit of pushing as well. And I think that's really true of when you think about women's stories. Pretty much, if we ever talk about women in the modern church, from 1830 on, we say, Eliza Snow and Emma, those are 200 years old. It's insane when you think about it for a minute and how much we need women's stories so that we recognize we're all very different. We all have these unique talents that we can bless people's lives with.
- [18:24]
A
I think my genuine question then is how they were handling that tension between external authority and inner authority, because it feels like they're. They're. That connection to inner authority that we were talking about is what gave them this capacity to make space for themselves. And so I think what would. What likely makes people nervous is like, okay, then what's the point of an external spiritual authority? Like, what is the point of operating within an institutional framework? So I'd love. I don't know what comes to mind. Like, what. How were they doing that? Well, why was it valuable?
- [18:55]
C
You know? So one of the women said she was. She was really funny. She just was like, oh, yeah. I mean, I don't like to go to Relief Society because crazy stuff gets said there. She was like. And I was like, oh, okay. And then. But she said, you know, I could just go hiking and do yoga and get in tune with. With. With spirituality. And she's like, but that's not enough. And I think that's where all of these women landed, which is. That's not enough. You can do all this stuff for internal. But the vehicle that we have is the church. And I think the church is divine in its design, not this whole thing where we always go, oh, it's perfect, except for imperfect people. I actually think it is divinely designed to give us friction. And. And even. So, Kathleen Flake was one of the women I interviewed, and she's an expert on organizations and religion. And her whole point was all organizations. So any organization has boundaries and also ideology. So boundaries of like, and who can go in and who can go out. So because of those boundaries, you're always going to have friction. So it's always. It's set up as an organization to give you friction. And why we think that's good is because that friction makes us a better person and makes us more like God. And I Think all of the women saw the benefit of the rituals. So we never really talk about us rituals, but there's a reason we have them. There's something that about us that's divine and eternal and somehow those rituals tap into that. I think that's one of the things I miss about Catholic churches. I love Palm Sunday and now we have it in our church. But there is something about those rituals. It's a recent. But there is something about, you know, the rituals, the rhythm. The rhythm and they reminds us of the eternity somehow. And so all these women saw the benefit also. They saw the benefit of serving in an area where you're put together with people that are not necessarily like you, that have different beliefs systems potentially on different things, and being able to learn how to love them, which that's huge. So I think it's really the ordinances, the rituals and, and the ordinances are real. So I think they all saw the benefit as additive on top of their own. I think it's how you look at it. If you think it's. This is the thing, then it's going to be rough because it's going to give you friction. But if you look at it and think, there's me, I'm unique. My job is to love God and to love our fellow men. And what fellow men looks like is giving them light. So how do I give light to as many people as I can? And then you go to God and figure out your path. That's what those women. That's how those women looked at it. So that's how they looked at it is I'm going to loving God and man looks like giving light to other people. I can do that in various ways. I'm choosing and I'm getting directed to do it through this career path plus a family. So they looked at it that way and then they looked at the church as additive to helping them serve other people and get to know God and know who he is. So I think if you look at his additive versus the thing.
- [21:46]
A
Yeah.
- [21:46]
C
Then it's. It's a little bit easier.
- [21:48]
A
I think it's Kathleen Flake that said, this is one of my favorite lines of the book that we have to make. We have to make people safer institutions, not institutions, safer people. That is the most freeing idea. It's just a. It's just like a little shift in perspective so that we're working on the right problem. And, and it feels like if people are safer institutions, then then we actually are able to improve the institution. But I, I know the feeling of being of. It just feels like powerlessness when you, when it feels like the institution is the problem because it feels like there's just nothing. There's. It's out, it's outside of your sphere of influence. And so you feel like kind of a victim to whatever you're noticing that feels misaligned. And I love the idea that we can create this resilience that actually empowers us to, to help the institution in a. In a healthy way. And I just thought that was such a, such a freeing idea when she said that.
- [22:40]
C
I. I know. I remember exactly where I was sitting because I felt like a light bulb hit me because I thought I was like, wait. Because I was thinking, we're trying to fix this thing. I was the. I thought that was kind of it, The. The job. And then the job became. You have to be able to reframe what the organization is for.
- [22:55]
A
It's not meant to be perfect.
- [22:56]
C
No. Because it's gonna always have boundaries and give you friction. So like, that's never going away. And this whole idea that if we just solve this social issue and got the church in line and this one, then it would be perfect. Never gonna be perfect. It's never so that having. Knowing that it makes it's. I. It's freer. It's always going to be a thing. And I'm always gonna. By design because then I'm always gonna have to step back and go, okay, what, what, what do I think happens divinely here? What is, what is God trying to tell me here? How am I trying to learn what worldview or thing that I have brought to this? Am I now having to shape off so that I can have more of a Christ worldview? Because, you know, we all have our.
- [23:32]
D
All the stuff you mentioned, that one, sort of like framing that you saw, you know, throughout all these interviews was that, you know, you could take prophetic counsel and then sort of like the, the personal revelation that you receive is sort of like how I apply it. And I like that. I think it' in the vast majority of cases because there's a lot of agency involved and I'm learning how to receive and participate in my own revelation. But I wonder too about the people that may be listening to this and thinking, well, my personal revelation is actually in conflict. It's not just that there's a sort of personal application, but these two things just don't seem to jive. What would you say to someone that's
- [24:11]
C
thinking that, well, I think every single one of those Women hath that experience. And I would assume a lot of people have that experience. Because I think one of the things that is easier in life and by easier, I don't think it's easy. But getting your own personal revelation, we can struggle it out. It might take a decade to get that revelation. I've had that experience. But we can get it just for ourselves. How does it apply to me? I think sometimes organizational revelation can take a lot longer. Just the process and where it's at and number of perspectives that have been put in or have not put in yet. And so I think sometimes all those women that I interviewed were ahead potentially of where eventually the organization came out with revelation. Blacks in the priesthood is a perfect example. Every single one of them were like, I already had this experience. I don't think this is the right thing. But at the same time, they have that experience where it's like, this is the not right thing. They also got the experience of God saying, but this is still the right place for you. And I'm aware of you and I know you. So those three things all came together. And I think that. I think it's a personal thing that you have, how you have to handle that conflict. But I do think one of the things I'll say, nobody said it this way, but I kept hearing it when they were talking. One woman did say similar, and I thought she actually had a really rough experience with the priesthood leader. Sorry for. For just rolled my eyes. Because I don't know what else to do with that other than roll my eyes.
- [25:43]
D
Most people are listening.
- [25:47]
C
But she said, very bad experience. And she was driving around for a couple hours after this experience, and she said she just heard a voice that said, whose church is this? And she felt the answer. And through her whole body of like, it's mine, it's the Savior, and don't worry about this guy. I've got you. And like. And for me, when she was saying that to me, somehow I heard. And it's not my job to fix it either. Back to your question, Tim. Like of a.
- [26:17]
A
But.
- [26:17]
C
But I do think I have a responsibility. So I don't know how to tell this metaphor, but I had a friend of mine, he read the book and he. He said it's really hard. This is a mixed metaphor, but it's really hard. You have to think about, you know, there's that studying the ark in the Old Testament of like, they all got in trouble. Cause they tried to study the ark because. But there's also the ark, Noah's ark. And he's like, we're all living in the ark, and there's lots of. Of stuff that comes out of people, and we've got to get rid of it. So, like, we're animals. Yeah, we're animals, so we got to get rid of it. So we've got to clean the ark. And so I do think there is a challenge for us to figure out what is right for me and how do I be authentic to myself and what is the positive way to clean that arc in my sphere of influence. And I. I think that's where the tension is, because I. I don't. I know that. But most of us at some point will get an answer from God that's like, I know who you are. I love you, and I know who you are. And that kind of makes you feel like, I can do this, but it doesn't necessarily give you all the 10 steps of what that looks like going forward. And I think sometimes we think it does, but it definitely doesn't.
- [27:22]
A
Yeah, it feels like that's a. It's a perspective that a lot of these women shared, that the. That the church itself, as an institution is the vehicle for their connection with their community that is creating a lot of good growth. And it's. And it's a vehicle for connecting with God. And so maybe that creates inherent flexibility in what the thing is. But I. I liked that that meant in most of your conversations, it led to this inevitable question about how you stay. So, like, if you're. If you're beyond whether you should stay, which it felt like all of these women had arrived at for one reason or another, like, this is where they're invested and they're going to commit, not because it's perfect, but because it's their vehicle for growth. Then how do you make it work? Like, how do you metabolize this tension in a place where you want to be nourished? And I'd love for you to talk about Judy Dushku, because her answer was my very favorite. And she just said, speak up. Actually, she said, speak up. Speak up, Speak up. How many times? Four times, I think.
- [28:17]
C
What's her whole point? Because she actually said, you people around you are thinking and feeling alone and thinking the same thing as you. And speak up and have those connections and help people also know there's other perspectives. And I do think there's something about when you speak up. I don't know. For me, when I speak up, I feel so much better, like a weight has lifted. And I think that's part of. I think you have to think of this as my job is to give light to other people. That might mean speaking up and like, giving a truth that maybe doesn't apply to half the room right now, but it applies to one in the room that might help them. And I can think of a bajillion times in my life that's not actually a number, but I can think of so many where somebody has said something around me. It's not even at church, but it's where. But a lot of times it's at church. And I think, oh, oh, that's a thing. I need to go figure that out, or that helps me, or that gives me peace today, or that gives me peace for a week. And I think we don't know what. We don't know what other people are doing. And I think speaking up is a big deal. And I. All of those women were so articulate in their sphere of influence. Not a one didn't shy away from saying, no. I'm having this big, huge career. I'm solving the problem with transplant for organs and discovering that and raising my kids. I'm. I'm doing those. And this is what. And God's fine with that.
- [29:35]
A
Yeah, I think that's. Speaking up can feel overwhelming, I think, sometimes to my nervous system. But I have been in rooms where women, especially in Relief Society, have raised their hand and said something that I felt like the room disagreed with. But they've said it. They. Even though it's different, it feels like you can. It's almost like the air becomes electric. And it's just. It's like this connecting experience that is so magic because there are so few places where someone gets to be that vulnerable and disagree. You know, it's just. It's one of the few places where we're opting into. Into conversation with people who might completely see an important issue in a different way. And we're. We just are in the middle of reading Ryan Verge's book about the vanishing church, and he feels like this is one of the most important functions that churches have, that, like, it brings people into the same just so that you can keep getting reps, keep getting exposures to people who just see things differently. And even if that's the only productive thing that happens, like, he's making the case that that all by itself is so valuable. And I have felt that. Like, I have felt my heart open to people that I would. I would prefer to villainize because it would keep my world, really. It would keep things really simple.
- [30:49]
C
Yeah.
- [30:49]
B
And.
- [30:49]
A
And so it just felt like a good reminder that maybe speaking up isn't even about create. Like changing something like that might not be really possible but, but what could be opening up is, is just these opportunities for connection and that is doing its own work. But I'd love for. I feel like this comes naturally to you. Like you feel. I feel like I'm getting the vibe that like you can speak up easily. How do you do it in a room where it feels like there's a lot of tension already in the air and it, it feels like there's too much pressure.
- [31:18]
C
It's so interesting because is. I've had so many people over the years ask because so my career, I always, I, I was in tech. I just always just my personality. So I like everybody has a different personality. So what works for one person isn't going to work for another. And as before you were talking, I was thinking about how that whole speak up thing, I was actually thinking like
- [31:39]
A
from.
- [31:40]
C
For a women's perspective in the church, there are actually not that many places to speak up. I mean if in the actual church organization. And so you're limited. But then I think I don't, I, I can't tell you how many times, I mean I'm in a book club, I. How many times I go on a walk with somebody and you speak up and say some truth to them that helps somebody else.
- [32:02]
A
And I.
- [32:03]
C
So I think. But I. Back to your community thing. So I think one of the biggest things that our society is really missing is the community piece. Right. Like we don't have communities. It's one of the best ways God has for us to bring us together and to learn and have friction. And if we don't have that, where do we have it? Right. We just don't have it. And so I think that's what all those women recognized. I don't. On the speaking up thing for women, I. People always ask me that and I'm like, I just have the personality. Sorry, I just have the personality. But I do think there's other ways that I've noticed people speak up. People speak up through art and through music and through all these different avenues that bring peace and the spirit. This goes back to my whole premise, which is, is everybody is unique. And luckily God actually knows where all your skill sets are. And he also knows your job is to bring light to other people. And so if you go in partnership with him, he's going to lead you to places where you can share your light to his children. And I feel like that's what all those women did. They like, they partnered with God and were like, okay, I'm going to go be a surgeon or whatever. And. And God led them down that path because it was going to be the people they met and the people they were able to share light with. And I think that's kind of. That's my whole. Ended up being. My thesis, frankly, was we're all unique, but there's a God and heavenly parents that know us and are like, if you come to me and partner with me, I'm going to lead you into this huge, expansive way that you can impact all my children. And so I think it's going to be unique for every person.
- [33:37]
A
I love that.
- [33:37]
D
Yeah, you also, you wrote that none of the women in these biographical sketches that you did let the friction in their lives become all consuming. And I found that very interesting in part because there have been times in my life, at least, where church for me was essentially 100% friction. And I realized that at those times and I wasn't always good at doing it, but I needed another source of spiritual nourishment of some kind. So maybe you could give some examples or just how you've thought about this when church is very frictionful for you.
- [34:08]
C
Yeah, I think it's. It's really interesting because, well, there's a couple things. One is they never let the. It completely stop them, but I would say they probably had moments where they were stopped, meaning they stopped all the way, but they kept going. They kept. They decided to move forward. And I think we all have potentially those issues or those times. I would say one of the things I did say in the book was there's like this old wives tale about if you look at the universe through a straw, you see hardly any of it. It. And I think what all these women did was they did have time periods where it. It almost made them stop, or maybe they stopped it, then they kept going. And what they did is they reframed the conversation, which was instead of looking through a straw and only focusing on, are you kidding me? That that guy said that to me and what in the world, you know, Instead they were like, okay, whatever, it's not his church. And I am going to look for the beauty of this church and what it brings me. And not to be a selfish perspective, but it kind of, you have to do the selfish perspect, which is, what good is this bringing me? And one of the ones is community, one is rituals, one is again being with people that are going to cause friction for you and then you get to grow and it. So I feel like they always ended up reframing. Was the reframing instantaneous? No, it was not instantaneous for anybody. Right. And that's not true. There was a couple experiences I did share in the book where they pretty much had a direct answer that was like, no, no, no, go this way. Come on, get it together. And, and I think we do get those sometimes, but sometimes we don't. Sometimes we get decades where we're like, really? That's a thing.
- [35:45]
A
I think one thing that I noticed in myself that I could see in contrast with a lot of these stories is that I think I, there are a lot of ways I limit myself. Like, I, I, I sort of like, create these rigid rules. And Claudia Bushman is famous for, for saying, she, for saying always, like, make a list of what you would do if you had the priesthood and do those things anyway. And I remember the first time I heard her say that and it was so provocative. And then when I really started thinking about it, I realized, like, she's right that I put so many limits. Like, I, it's almost, it, almost, it becomes an excuse for inaction. And I appreciate that. Like, she didn't slow down because she just refused to be limited by these outside things. And I think probably more often than not, she's right that, like, we can just move in the world the way we feel inspired to move. And so I, to me, that was another answer. Like, it's hard for it to be all consuming if you just, just don't believe you have these, these limits that are slowing you down. So I, I'd love for you to talk about, though I think that can be, I think it can be hard to get, get those blinders off. Like, it's, if that's how it feels, if that's all you can see, it's hard to just, like, it's hard to see anything else. So. Especially right now for women who are maybe just graduating high school, like, they're kind of new into these conversations, I'd love for you to talk about how you can, how you can see your place in the church that in, in a way that's genuinely empowering and honest.
- [37:16]
C
It's a great question. I think one of the things that is hard is back to your, what you were talking about with Claudia. You know, at the end of the day, she had friction, but it's how she used the friction, meaning she looked at it and said, okay, well, now I'm going to actually spend a minute and think what's right for me. Like, she ended up. That's what. That's that reframing. She did the. Hey, wait a minute. How does this apply to me? I'm getting friction. How does this apply? Go to God, figure it out, and then move forward. And I think having. I think we have to name. I think one of the things that's been. Sorry, I'm all over the place. But one of the things that has been really interesting after this book just came out is so many people have read it and reached out to me. And one of the things that really strikes them is that at the end of the day, this is not a perfect church. It's never going to be. A lot of times we pretend it is and we are like, oh, it's perfect. Just get in line, read your scriptures and do this. It's perfect. It's not. And that's back to that statement of we're going to. The organization's going to be perfect. But we actually need to make what that means to have somebody, a person, okay for the organization mean. Means they have reframed it and no friction's gonna come and it's gonna be part of the organization. So once you realize that, then your next question is, it's like, oh, here's friction. Okay, well then is this too much friction? What is this? Actually, what can I learn from. How can I go to God and figure out who he is in this moment? And back to your worldview thing. Cause you were talking about a little bit about worldview of. I'm limiting myself. Well, there's so many things we've taken on that we heard in young women's. Did I since had to go, wait, is that really real? Like, that's not. And, and, and those moments when you step back and say, okay, the friction. This is too much. Then you get to know, hey, it's. This isn't right. And that's okay. And then I could. That has made me grow and learn more who God is in my life and who I am. Right. That's the goal. So what I would say is, I think at the end of the day, we're looking for perfect organizations. And so when they're not perfect, we're like, well, I can't be in that this. Like, I can't be part of this. And you see that on many levels. Like, I don't want to work at this job because they actually make me spend time doing grubby work that I don't want to do. Right. Like, it's everywhere. But I think if you reframed and recognize this vehicle that we have and what God gave us to have in an additive to hiking and doing yoga is this organization that is going to give you friction, give you ordinances, and let you learn and grow and know who I am. And so by expecting. So, you have to see that there's an additive piece to it that you need to stay in that you can't get there just on your own, going hiking. And the piece that you're. One of the things you brought up was the community. I mean, it's pretty hard to be in the mix with people that you're like, I hate this calling, and I hate who I'm working with in this calling. And, yeah, I'm going to do it every week and figure out how to grow and how I can fix myself. So I think it's always going to be reframing to know it's not gonna be perfect. It's never gonna be perfect. So what does it bring me? And that's. And I think we don't. As a society, we're not necessarily. And I mean, this Western society, we are looking for more comfort. If it's uncomfortable, then I'm opting out. And I think that's just kind of opposite of the gospel plan. I mean, sadly, we said, no, we'll take the plan where it's gonna be uncomfortable. And then we got down here, and we're like, please give me comfort.
- [40:44]
A
Yeah, totally.
- [40:45]
C
No, I am all the time, like, why? Why is this happening?
- [40:47]
A
Why is it so hard?
- [40:49]
D
Maybe as we sort of, like, move toward the finish here, would you talk about the metaphor of the redwoods and why it's maybe. And maybe in the framing of, like, the Rising Generation, why it's important to look, you know, to some of these inspirations from past generations.
- [41:03]
C
Yeah. So I started out the book. I had just been kayaking in the redwoods. And the thing that's amazing about the redwoods is they're, like, super, super tall. They're super, super old. They have a network where they can talk. They talk to each other, like the trees do, and let the trees know, hey, a fire's coming, or there's bu. And they put out more of their. The little stuff that keeps the bugs away. Anyway, when you're in the forest and you look up, you also notice there's, like, new trees growing on the old trees. That's how they do it. And what struck me was this ground has already been hoed. When it comes to this question of like, what? Why is this so uncomfortable in this church? It's already been done, like nothing. It's ne. It's never going to be new. It's always going to be uncomfortable. I mean, not always, but there is going to be always be uncomfortable elements. You might have a whole month or two of greatness and then move on. You know, I don't know, maybe you have a couple years or whatever it is. But at the end of the day, it's not new. The problems that were faced by women and men, everybody has friction and knowing. And knowing that they've already been through it for us. Like those redwoods, we can grow on them. We can stand on the shoulders of giants. That's what I actually wanted the book to be called. But that's not what it's called. But because I thought it was so important to recognize. I don't need to figure this out for myself. They already had these questions. They already felt uncomfortable and they already figured out how to work with God and figure out who they were. And I just. I just need to learn from them. It's been really fun because since I interviewed them, I've been able to, like, I go to lunch with some of them every once in a while. And these women are amazing. They are. It is so cool to sit down with someone that's in their 80s and they look back on their life and I'm sure it felt really hard when they were going through it, but they just have this grace and this. I don't know how to describe it, but they just are there. They're just these people that are amazing and yet available and relatable and understand already what's gone on. And I just. We need those people's stories. We need to look to the giants that we can build on and know they've already done this work. Let's learn from them and keep moving forward. One of the things that's interesting, I will say Christine Durham. I had her come speak somewhere that I was talking and she said something really interesting. Someone had asked her, well, what did you think was going to happen after you guys did all this stuff and you fought kind of for, hey, let's have women have all these rights. One of the things ERA was. I'm going to talk about it, but era was going on as part of the trial that was early 70s and. And that's why there was so much friction around women working from the church. The church was against the Equal Rights Amendment. Christine Durham. Because it didn't pass Christine Durham as her capacity that she was in, went through line by line in the Utah. She, you know, she was in the state of Utah code and changed every single code that was not equal for women. So there were. So speaking of, she wrote the pamphlet for Mormons for ERA that did not go through. And she then went and did the code. So like here she was fixing and moving things forward. I think at the end of the day, we also have to remember the prophet is going to get revelation, similar to how we all get revelation, which is, here's an idea, it's a paragraph. It's not a paragraph, it's an idea. And then through our own worldview, including the prophets, they implement, they do implementation. And that is where man made human peace comes in. And so a lot of times the implementation ends up being the thing that's problematic. And you can think about it in your own lives where you've had an answer. It's like, hey, you should go do this. And so then you come up with an entire story as to why you're going to do this. You just can't not. You're just like, I gotta come up with this whole story that makes it all make sense, sense. And it's never that, right? It's just never that. And so I think that's some of the times you have to remember that's what's happening. Even at the prophetic level of, I just got a little thing that I'm going to implement it. And I think sometimes that's the case. And in the whole thing that went on with the era, I think at the end of the day, it might have been a flawed law the way it was written, I don't know. But they probably got an answer that was, it's not going to work out. Right? And. And so then from there it was like, okay, that means that all the women need to stay in their houses. So that might have been the flaw. Not flawed, but just human implementation. I don't believe that the question ever should have been work, not work. Women are multifaceted, so are men. And so having it be just two facets just. It doesn't make sense. So that's one of the things I would say that came out in the book was just really this idea of. Of knowing that the prophets do get revelation. And it's usually on a topic. So then the question is, how does that topic really apply to me?
- [45:57]
A
Yeah, thank you so much. I. This book is infused with a strength that feels contagious because it's just so resonant for for our our time and our our tension and the friction that we're experiencing right now and it really was such a gift to just see that this is an old problem and that it's going to always be a something that we're navigating as members of the church no matter and also just wherever we are like friction is going to always be part of our evolution and it really was a gift to just get familiar with the wisdom of these grandmothers. So we're really grateful that you have put this all together and just grateful for the conversation.
- [46:34]
C
Thanks for having me so much. Thanks Robin.
- [46:38]
A
All right.
- [46:38]
B
Thanks so much for listening. We hope that you enjoyed this conversation we with Robin Rich. You can find her new book Using Friction to Grow anywhere books are sold and if faith matters content is resonating with you. We would love for you to rate and review the podcast wherever you listen. Thanks again for listening.