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Faith Matters
“Yes, And”: Creativity as a Spiritual Practice, with Lisa Valentine Clark and James Rees
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- [00:00]
A
Wayfair issue 7 is almost ready to print, and we can't wait for you to read it. It's all about the concept of trust. Trust in God, in ourselves, and in our communities. And it centers women's wisdom and experience with trust, especially the trust in our individual relationship with heavenly parents that allow each of us to act with power and integrity in our own lives. Become a friend of Faith Matters or become a paid subscriber to wayfair magazine by March 31st to receive this beautiful issue in the mail. Links are in the show notes. Hey, everybody. This is Aubrey Chavez from Faith Matters. In today's conversation, we're exploring creativity as a spiritual practice, not something reserved for artists, but as a way of living. Our guests today are Lisa Valentine Clark, comedian, actor, and host of the Lisa show, and James Reese, artist, educator, researcher, and passionate advocate for the arts. Both Lisa and James have spent their lives creating in front of audiences, on stages, in studios and classrooms. They've come to see that creativity does sacred work inside us. It gives form to what we're wrestling with and helps us clarify what we're thinking and feeling. It helps us metabolize the unexpected and draws us into deeper presence. For Lisa, these insights became intensely practical. She shares the foundational rule of improv. Yes. And where we accept what's given and we build from it. This principle became a discipline that helped carry her through the hardest season of her life. And throughout the episode, we return again and again to the role of vulnerability, the courage to begin before you feel ready, to quiet the inner critic and to let something take shape before you judge. It's this openness that makes growth possible. We hope this conversation expands the way you think about creativity and moves you to notice the ways that you're already being invited into it. And now here's Lisa Valentine Clark and James Reese.
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B
All right, well, welcome, Lisa and James. We're so, so delighted to have you on the podcast. Thanks so much for being here. It really is just an honor to get to be with you. So thank you for having me to do this.
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C
Thank you. We really appreciate the work you do.
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A
Oh, thank you.
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B
Well, likewise. And we're excited because we've wanted to
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A
do this topic for a long time
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B
about creativity and connection and how creativity connects us to God. And both of you are doing this in your own spheres in really different ways. And I know that you've worn a lot of hats and you've experienced a lot of different seasons in your life, and so I. It feels like you're experts in this Topic in. In your own way. So I'd love for you to just start and talk about the way creativity is alive in your life right now with whatever hat you're wearing, whatever season you're in. What does it look like right now for each of you?
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D
Wow. What a question. I feel like creativity is the only way to sort of explain my life. You know, I've had lots of great intentions, amazing plans, nothing that has gone according to plan. And so I feel like I understand my life best in creative terms. So, you know, I think my. My main creative outlet, that or, you know, way of seeing the world as improvisation and improvisational acting, the whole yes and yes way. And that has also helped me understand my life. And right now I. I produce and host some podcasts, the Lisa show and Council of Moms, and I'm a mother, and. And I just love talking about creativity. And I feel like, personally, I've had to create my life. I feel like I've had an accidental career as an educator and an actress and a producer and lots of other things. So, yeah, I just feel like, in creative terms, in and out of collaboration in personal and professional realms, creativity has been honed down. It's the only way I can explain anything.
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B
Thank you.
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D
Yeah.
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B
James.
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C
Well, my. My creative. There's like two worlds that collide. My teaching and my art making, and the intersection of those in between is where I'm driven by inquiry into research. And so creativity lives in all those areas, and they inform each other, and then they also spill over into my life. I try to see myself as a creative, that the way I move through life and the way I interact with others is creative, and that's being open to possibilities kind of in an improv way, and. And seeing how we're. We're navigating. And like Lisa, I have had unexpected things in my life that you have to know, okay, now what do I do with this? And how can I make this a good thing? Even though sometimes on the surface it doesn't look so good. And I think that's a creative thing that we all can do is how do I respond to these unexpected things in our lives? And so that's what I've tried to do, is be creatively like, okay, this is not something I planned. Let me make it something beautiful.
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D
Yeah.
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E
Love that you're both people of faith. I'm curious, you know, how. How you think about your faith in relation to. In relation to your creativity, especially because, like, I guess when I think of my own creative pursuits, like, there's a part of me that wants to think, oh, that was me. That's, you know, truly unique in some ways. And yet, you know, we believe that God influences us and the Spirit speaks to us, and there is such a thing as revelation. So I'm curious how you both think of that relationship, that relationship between your own creativity and what, you know, how. How God is influencing you or how. How the Spirit is speaking to you.
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D
Oh, absolutely. That's a huge question. But I appreciate it because I feel like that's how I was raised and. And how I've seen the world. My mother is a painter. Her mother was a painter. And there was a lot of creativity in my home growing up. And so the. The way to see it was very natural in growing up. And I really believe that. That we complicate unnecessari what creativity is and that everyone is creative. And I feel like it's a divine birthright. I feel like there's so many ways to describe God, right, And our relationship to him and, and who he is. And. And I feel like he is the Creator and ultimately created and that we were created to create and can really understand these things in creative terms. And so I feel like, because that is the way that I view God, that I feel like that is the language that modeled in. In the natural world, in our. Our lives. And. And in creative terms, I feel like anything really, in the gospel, I see it through a creative lens in the sense of, like, when we're asked to follow the Spirit or come to Christ with a broken heart and a contrite spirit, or gather Israel or become a Zion people. These are all creative pursuits. Bringing into existence something that has never existed before is what we're literally doing with our lives, which is literally creativity.
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E
Love that.
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C
Well, and I had a similar background. My father was a writer, my older brother was in the music industry. And my younger brother is a photographer. And my mother in college was a dancer. So I really had an environment which kind of elicited that kind of response to find creativity as a natural way to articulate my life experience. And I think the spiritual thing, the religious part of my life is similar, is that intersection of leaning into the unknown and trusting. Trusting that God is there. And there's a lot of overlap between creativity and revelation, where it really relies on being open, keeping my spiritual channel open, that I could be receptive to things. I mean, like I do in the studio. It's. I have to be willing to take prompts and be open to possibilities that I haven't imagined and I think the spirit directs me in a similar way in my life. I've never really, I've always had goals, but I've always been prompted to sometimes deviate from those goals. And I think that's kind of how I've seen my spiritual path is responding to those unexpected things.
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D
Wow.
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B
Yeah, that's so beautiful. I think I've learned about non resistance and equanimity from this Buddhism perspective and that's really been a challenge like just letting go of these things that you think are best for you. And so I like the idea of creativity being a spiritual practice where you're, where you really are committed to receiving and to, to just like a trust in what is happening. And it kind, it kind of feels like another way to have that, to, to practice that same sort of non resistance creativity to me can feel a little bit more playful where you know, and maybe it's a, maybe it's like a, it's in a, a context where the stakes feel a little bit lower, where I'm, I'm practicing in an artistic way even. And so I, I think it's interesting to imagine that, that this could be a spiritual practice. But that's so foreign to like my, the way that I worship is almost pure consumption. Like I'm taking things in, I'm reading and listening and watching and like I'm trying to absorb. And so it's really flipping this around to imagine that a spiritual that, that worship even could be like a putting out. It could be, it could be creating something new. And that feels like so resonant. I love that idea. But I wondered from both of your perspectives how you think about that relationship. Like it, can creativity be a spiritual practice by itself? And like is it just because it's helping you refine that non resistance or like, or is it that it's aligning you with something that is so godlike, like that it's so inherent. And what is it you think that can, can really mature a spirituality?
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C
Well, I know in my, my practice I think it's a really reflect good reflective tool. It helps me figure out what's going on inside me and helps me understand what's going on around me. And I do that, work that out. I really, in my sketchbook practice especially just tap into my subconscious. Sometimes it's hard to articulate what's going on within you. And that's true emotionally, but also it's true spiritually. It's like what's going on? How am I feeling about this? And so if you look at my sketchbook, you'll sometimes go, whoa, what's going on there? And it's me trying to work things out. And so I think the creative process is a great way for people to figure things out and then share that journey with others when they, you know, that's how Lisa and I connect a little bit. She bought some of my work. But is because we connected in a similar wavelength about dealing with challenges in our, in our family life.
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D
Yeah. And being able to look at that and see and have something resonate with you. You know, your question about, you know, what is it and how do you do. I, I really do feel like spirituality is creative. It's the creative process. You know, when you're doing something, whether it's writing or, or, or painting or for me, like improvisation, you get lost in it. You lost in that creative flow. And a lot of social scientists have mapped that to what is this? And, and what is it? When you feel that sort of tapped into it. I, I feel like the, the spirit speaks to all of us in different ways and that that is it that there's so many creative practices or arts, like innumerable ways that, that speak to us and that that's one of the ways that the spirit speaks to me. And, And I do feel that a lot of times we need to re. Examine what we think we know. Like your, I, Your idea about that consumption work where we're reading other things, we're. We're pondering them, we're. We're consuming them, we're taking them in. And I really feel like there's a process to that that we almost want it to be instant. Like, tell me what that scripture means. Tell me what the answer to that prayer is. Give it to me right now. And I think we do that sort of unconsciously. And I think creativity slows it down. You don't really know what you believe and what you really think until you can express it, until you can write it down or you can create a painting like James. Paintings like, speak to me of like, oh, that's, that's how I feel about this. I have one of his paintings in my home that really spoke to me at a very difficult time. And I look at that and I think. And I know what I think spiritually and what my beliefs are by looking at that image. Yeah. And it's cool that we can talk about it, but it wasn't necessary to talk about it for, for me to understand that. And I feel like that's sort of what it's been for me of I. You don't know what you really think about something until you do it, until you write it down, until you paint. And I think that's what we get wrong a lot about. We think creativity is separate from. Spirituality is separate from our lives. And these are all flows that are connected to each other. How do we know how to repent until we know how to talk? How do we know how to. What we believe and, and how we can connect with God and have faith and do all these important spiritual soul stretching practices unless we express it in some way? And I think we can all do it. I think a lot of times we think it's all confined to, you know, writing, painting, music, dance, you know, and, and, but there are lots of ways in having a conversation, in the way that we live our lives, in the way even that we have a, like a morning ritual. Lots of little things can be creative and an. Of who we are or who we, or what we value and who we are to God.
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E
Yeah. I'm curious if you. Oh, sorry, did you just. If you distinguish between your spiritual lives and your religious lives, I'm curious if you see one or the other as inherently more nourishing to your creativity. Because the reason I ask is like, I think a critic might look at a latter day Saint religious life and say, oh, well, that's actually very regimented. Like we have, you know, sort of like these blocks that we go to church and there's a lot of structure and agendas. There's kind of the way that we do, you know, our liturgies and rituals are very similar, you know, one week to the next. Or you know, our ordinances, you know, look very similar. There's actually a very prescribed right way to do things which, you know, could be considered somewhat, you know, counter to creativity. And yet it's interesting if you look at the beginnings of the church. You know, Joseph Smith obviously was an important, incredibly creative individual. Tried all kinds of things, not all of which worked all the time, but I think that, you know, that sort of like 1830-1844 period was just like incredibly creative for those early, those early church members. And so I'm curious how you, how you see this. Like, do you separate your creativity from your religious lives specifically? Or are they in.
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D
Maybe I used to when I was younger, but I, I don't now. You know, I understand that there's a framework, right, that we all have to have a common language, we have a common belief, we have common rituals, scriptures. And I understand that. And I kind of look at it as a sort of a framework for like, maybe a creative pursuit. For me, I might think of it in terms of improvisation, right? There are certain rules to improvisation, but they're not. But, but it's just a framework so that you can all come together and commune and create something together. So there's. Yes, and you take, accept whatever offering you can, and you add to it. You listen, you don't negate, and then pretty much you just, Just keep adding and. And it creates something. So we have things that, you know, this sacrament is said a certain way, right? We. But. But we know and we've seen the, the way that we go to church, even from three hours to two hours, what we do. And in the temple ceremony and the things like that, those things sometimes change. And so I see it as a. Here are ways and an invitation that you can connect with Christ, right? We're told, here are all these opportunities. What will you do? And some people, you know, that have, oh, I start my day and I do this. Some people, oh, I do this with my family. I just look at the temple, right? All the creative arts, we've got stained glass, we've got visuals, we've got art, we have music, we have acting, we have hair and makeup, we have film. I mean, no, but I'm being totally serious. We have. All of the creative arts are in our temple worship. And yet we miss repeatedly the importance of creativity and of. Take this. And then what? You know, it reminds me of, like, how we talk about, like, here are the steps of repentance. First you do this, then you do that. But that's not like, how do you really have a repentant heart? Man, that is a, That's a, That's a creative process, right? You know that in the way that you express it. You know it when you do it, when you're engaged in it. And so, so, so to me, that creative aspect, like, I can't, I can't separate it from the rituals because I think, well, what does it mean? Yeah, like, who cares? Like, you know, you read. If you read the scriptures every day. Well, okay, you, you got like, I'm a mom, you know, we've gone through. You read a scripture and you ask the kids, what does that mean? How do you feel? And they're fighting and you're crawling all over. You know the difference between you read a scripture and you're like, I am changed forever. That changed my heart. That changed my mind about something. I see something like, there's A difference. And so to really connect or come unto Christ, which is the ultimate call of any Christian, that is a creative pursuit.
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E
Love that.
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C
Well. And I think a little bit about my practice. An artist, it's very common to have creative constraints, things that you push against. And maybe the vessel of the church is something that we have to consider. And I know sometimes I've made the mistake in past. And I talked to Lisa about this last week, that sometimes I, when I was. I was called as a high counselor once, and I felt like I was kind of like David Byrne in Talking Heads with that suit, you know, it like, didn't quite fit.
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D
Super cool, but it's just as a fit.
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C
Yeah, it is a cool image. But I was thinking that I was trying, I wasn't fitting in the way. And then later on, I was called as a bishop of Ysa Ward, and this stake president said, you have been called. You change it in any way that you feel you need to. And there's the call for creativity right within a spiritual call to be who you are. And. And I think sometimes looking back at the first calling where I felt awkward, I think that was on me, that I wasn't expressing my individuality and I wasn't being true to myself, my spiritual journey, and I was letting other people's, you know, perception of what was the way a high counselor should act, that I was trying to conform to that. So I think sometimes we may fall prey to that. And so I learned a big lesson there, that I did them a disservice by not just being myself in that first calling. And the second time, I wholeheartedly just dived in and was creatively, you know, being myself and hopefully blessing other people's lives.
- [18:24]
D
So, yeah, I think this brings up a really good point, too. I love this point that sometimes we tell ourselves stories and we're not even conscious of it, that of the, well, we have to be like this, or the church is like this, or this is. This is why God isn't answering this question, or this is why he's silent. We. We fill in the blanks with stories that may or may not be true. And if we can open up our minds to the possibility of something that might be true that we hadn't even considered, I think it can bring us to a deeper spiritual, like, connection with God. Something that's real.
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B
Yeah, I love that. It also is making me think about that. This is kind of what you. You just mentioned, Lisa. And I, I read something so similar from Richard Rohrt this morning. About how when. When we attempt to describe the divine, we realize that all language, language is an approximation. And like, we have to be mystics and poets because you can't. It's just. It's. We're too constrained by language. And so I wonder, and, And I agree. This is what, James, what your work is for me, like, it. It is capturing any, like, an internal experience that I have tried to describe and articulate in lots of different ways. And sometimes it zings a little bit. I'm like, I got something. I'm getting there. Like, that's almost the whole. That's almost the picture, but not quite. And. And this just feels like one more language to help describe something that is true, that feels indescribable, you know? So I. I'd love for you to talk about that. Like, is that what you. You know, when you're wrestling with something complex or heavy? Like, is it just that you're. Are you sketching what feels like truth? Are you sketching a message? Like, what are you hoping to express?
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C
Well, that's a great question. The reality is I. I really try to tap into my subconscious and I'm working things out for myself. And then I bring other people along with that journey. And oddly enough, that people can resonate with some of the challenges I've had. I think it's. It's. As we tap into our subconscious, we're also tapping into the spiritual side. We're opening ourselves up to new possibilities and not knowing, you know, being vulnerable and being. Keeping that spiritual channel open also opens up the creative channel where we can start to take things in ways that we hadn't imagined before. It really becomes a conversation between you and the medium. And so that's what I try to do. And I'm glad when it connects with others and you can see it. When I'm in art shows or galleries, I can see when people are drawn in because they feel something. And I think that's important. We intuitively figure things out in art before we can cognitively kind of figure things out. What that might mean and why we might think that. And I think that's important. I think the same is in the temple, right? We're really not told what to think specifically. We're opened up to these variety of arts within a context that we all know it's a special place because of the arts. And then we're. We're just sit in that uncomfortable space and try to figure it out. We have to feel and think about what we're feeling and why and how it might tap into who we are and why we're there in the first place.
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D
Yeah.
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B
Does the expression give you clarity? Like, as you're working it out, do you feel like you're refining what the experience is?
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C
Absolutely. I mean, I. I will sometimes. I'm an early riser, much the sugar in my wife, but I will sometimes have something, an answer come to me that I've been wrestling with. And I go to the studio and I start working out sometimes early. Early in the morning, like three in the morning sometimes, which might be late for some of you, but. But I really. Through the processing, it's the. You know, God speaks to everyone differently. Right. Spiritually and creatively. And. And I'm working things out in a creative way through the medium of art making. And I'm making meaning through that process and making sense of what I'm trying to figure out in my life. Now, if I share that with someone else, they may not like what you got, what from what. But for me, God's speaking in a way that is unique, and he understands each of his children. He speaks to us in a language we'll get. And so I have figured things out while I'm making images, you know, this whole series of the Weight We Carry came about because I was drawing for years in my sketchbook. My wife said, you know, you may want to make those into something to share that. And I'm glad I did because I've made more connections with that series, you know, as I'm working and things out in my own life and through the studio process. And then I'm connecting to others, which is another beautiful things. Right. Art is really a way to connect with yourself and your emotions and your spiritual perspective, but also, then you get to connect with others, and they share the journey with you.
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B
I want to ask you both about that, because improv and acting and, you know, where you have an actual audience that's watching you, there's something about the witnessing that also feels like part of this process.
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D
Well, I love the collaborative element of creativity, and those are the mediums that I'm drawn to. Okay. So, like, you know, live theater, when you create, whether it's improvisation or a play, even that has a script or watching live music, you know, and going to a concert, like, those are my. I mean, there. That is an experience. And a lot of people will joke. I'm very serious. These. These are spiritual experiences, 100%, because there is that energy. Each performance is different. It exists for a moment.
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B
And yes, it's a Moment in time.
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D
Even if you record it, it's not the same as watching. We don't watch. I mean, I do because I'm a weirdo. But like. Like plays or concerts, like back on video. But that's a different. A different medium. Like a movie or. Or TV and stuff is a different medium. But that collaborative process, it changes both people. And there is something special about feeding off of somebody's energy. You can tell when an audience is with you. You can tell it when they're. When they're not. And you have to win them over. It changes the performance, it changes the experience for everyone. And if you've ever done dinner theater, you can attest to that. Because when you're distracted and you're not in the moment and you're doing something else and trying to do, it's an entirely different experience than if somebody has, like, bought these tickets and saved and. And is waiting and with anticipation. And then they come out and you're already excited and you're excited for them to do it, then you are there and present. Which I think reveals an important part of creativity, is that it's experienced. It's joy experienced in the present. And you have to be fully present to be able to have that experience and to be there if you are distracted or you're not fully in it. It is not the same experience. And I think that there's something deeply connecting and spiritual about that, you know, to go back and talk about, like our experiences in the temple or experiences at sacrament, meaning or experience and having a conversation with a friend. All of these experiences can change your life, but you have to be present in order to do it. That's also where you unlock, I think, the creative flow, where you get lost in it and lost in time and. And. And it becomes a little bit more of a spiritual experience. You know, there's a difference. There's a reason why, like, we don't like watching a. Yeah. A concert video or a basketball game on somebody's phone. Like, look at this. I'm always like, put your phone down and just be in the moment. Watch the game, you know, listen to the concert, you know, or you be there in the play instead of taking video of it. Because even if you watch it back, yeah, it might give you a good, you know, experience, but it's. Or memory, but it's not the same thing as. As that collaborative transformation that. And I do feel like our loving heavenly parents gave us this. This gift of saying, this is how I want you to experience the world, to Connect together. And I think that those are the experiences that. That have the most impact on us.
- [25:57]
E
Yeah, I'm curious what other, you know, what other barriers there might be to either creativity, I guess, or experiencing a creative, you know, spiritual moment. You mentioned distraction. I've been. I. I've been practicing pottery for two or three years now, and I have a lot of enneagram one in me. I don't know if you guys have done enneagram stuff at all, but it's, like, very perfectionistic. And I will find myself. I'll be like, you know, forming a bowl or whatever, and it's a little bit wonky, or it's not as tall as I want it to be or whatever. And you just keep working those walls until it gets so thin that the whole thing collapses, you know? And I think our very first pottery teacher, she. She'd like to say that art has a finish line. So it's like, don't, you know, at some point just, like, let the thing be? And that doesn't come very natural, naturally to me. So I'm curious, either in your own creative pursuits or what you've seen from others that have been trying to practice some type of creative pursuit. What. What do you see that comes up that prevents people from, you know, either either creating something or fully experiencing the moment of creation?
- [26:58]
C
I.
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D
No, please.
- [27:00]
C
I think, you know, we have to reframe failure, I think both in our creative effort, because it's really experience. Right. I think of paintings I've done, I've had to layer over. They've just been horrible. But I wouldn't have gotten to the good surface had I not done the work and made the mistakes behind that. That's end result. And so I think that's important that we frame that. I think there's spiritual parallels to that, right?
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D
Oh, yeah.
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C
We wouldn't intentionally go back in time and make the same mistakes. We change it. But we are saying that now from where we're at, because we had made those mistakes and learned from them. And so I think the same as the creative process is, you have to have to make mistakes. That's the only way that we really. I think that's part of the reason, you know, that God knows everything. I've always thought about this. He knows how we're gonna act. But we have to go through the physical exercise of making mistakes to learn. Because there's something about learning here. And then, like, in the arts, it's all about really intentionally, intensely learning through experience.
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D
Oh, yeah. I think that's the big one. Right. And I think that there's a lot of barriers for us to being creative. I think looking stupid people don'. Like to look bad. Embarrassing yourself, being cringy, chewy, whatever you want to call it, whatever the kids are calling it or whatever. Like, I think the people who stay with it and, and who don't are the ones that don't care if they look ridiculous or done. And that's. It's really, really hard. Especially now, I think, you know, with social media has, has, you know, people who would have never thought of themselves as a brand or anything, like, are suddenly worried about their image and in a weird way that, that we all kind of are melding into like looking the same and it's. It. So I think that's a, that's another barrier. I think sometimes it's also hard when our taste. Your taste level hasn't reached your ability yet. And the space in between that keeps me from painting, quite honestly. Like, I love to do it. Why can't I just do it?
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C
Yes.
- [28:57]
D
And do it mediocrely. Like, why can't I get over myself? Right, Totally. And giving yourself permission to not be good, to make mistakes. I think, and I also think, think that there are systematic barriers that we don't see or talk about a lot that keep us from being creative. I did a series, a limited series on the my podcast, the Lisa show of Creep about creativity and talked to a lot of creativity researchers and a lot of businesses will say, well, we want your creative thoughts. You come to us with your, you know, craziest ideas and. But they, but the data shows that they really don't want your crazy thoughts and that those who think outside of the box are not promoted as much. Much. There's a lot of research to say that although we may talk very wonderfully to each other about and give lip service about creativity. So not so great for you. How fun for you. We don't have the systems that, that require. We have a society that's structured very much on just, just do the thing we asked you to do or just really or don't look different than your neighbors or this is what we do. We want to systematize it because it's, it's easier, it's harder and more uncomfortable to think creatively. And personally, I think that can be very spiritually damning, you know, and it really can we do that to ourselves and to our others because we say, hey, I did the steps XYZ and I didn't get the result. And And I. And I. And. And I feel like there's a million ways, there's an infinite way to live a good creative, a good covenanted life. And there's not just one way, but we want to say, are we doing it right? Are we doing it right? We look at our neighbors and we say, this is the right way to go. And then we limit everybody else unconsciously by saying, oh, no. There's lots of different creative ways to express a good life, to follow Christ, to live a covenanted life, but we're not sure. So we don't do anything risky.
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B
Yeah, it feels risky.
- [30:52]
C
Yeah. And I think another thing I've seen, because I teach teachers how to teach art now, and I see that we do a process where we sometimes critique ourselves before we even are in the process of making. Right. I don't know if you've experienced that. Your mind can jump ahead and say, that's garbage. I'm not going to do that. And then you really. So I always say, make, and then you can sit back and critique it after. And I think that's something. That's an important thing. But it doesn't come especially for people that are thinkers. You have. You overthink it. It.
- [31:23]
E
And anyway, let me ask you a specific about this. We could even edit this. This is just. Like, I really need to know.
- [31:28]
B
Tim needs advice.
- [31:29]
E
I do need advice. Okay, so what about when you get over that particular moment and you make something and then it sucks, and you know, it sucks, but you don't know what to do about it.
- [31:39]
D
Oh, you just, you. You say, oh, I. I have the answer for you.
- [31:42]
C
Oh, good.
- [31:42]
D
Because I am like, improv is the worst, right? Because you're just like, there's just so many ways to fail. Like, it's just. It's just practicing failure. Yeah. And so Amy Poehler, in her book yes, Please, has this great way of explaining it. When I read it, I was like, oh, that's what I've been doing. That's what I think. And I didn't even know. And she put it to words, but she says, like, there's this voice in your head that's like, this is stupid. Who do you think you are that you think you can do this? This is going to be dumb. And it's that imposter syndrome. Right? Like, don't you. Like, why are you even trying? Like, this is, like, so dumb. You know, we've learned this. And I always feel that way ever since any time, like before an improv show, like, where I think really who do I think I am that I'm gonna. I don't even know what I'm gon. And these people are. What. What are you people are going to watch you like, what do you. Why. Why don't you just stay at home in bed where it's safe? And. And what you. She does. What I do is you say, yes, I acknowledge you. I see you there. You're probably right. I will talk to you later. But will you just to sit over there for just a second? I gotta go do a thing. And then I will get right back to you. And I used to do that before improv shows. And then I would drive home on my way, and I'd be like, oh, my gosh, why did I say that? I can't believe I did that in front of people. I, you know, I should have said this instead of this. And then on the way home, I will allow that process because it. That voice then trusts me that I'll get back to it. And then I'm like, but as soon as we get home, it's done.
- [33:01]
E
Oh, interesting.
- [33:02]
D
We're done. We're not. You know, as soon as I get in and I pull into my driveway, okay, we're done with that. At least I did it. Doing the thing is always better than thinking about doing the thing or talking about the thing, because there's a world full of people who talk about doing it and talk about what they're going to do. But there's a very few people who are going to say, yeah, I'll do it. And at least I tried. Yeah, that's what I want on my headstone. Even though I have his headstone and
- [33:25]
C
something that I do, I, I. If I, for example, I have. If I need to come up with a specific image, I'll do three of them because it allows me some latitude to explore different possibilities. And sometimes they all work, but sometimes only one works. And then I'm prepared. And then also I have a drawer in my studio that I stick things. They're like, I don't know what to do with that, but I'll come back to you. And so it's just part. I think it's through volume. The more you do, the better.
- [33:50]
B
Okay.
- [33:51]
C
And you just have to do the amount of time it takes to get that skill level where you. You feel comfortable about articulating what you're wanting to say.
- [33:59]
D
Yeah.
- [34:00]
C
So I think everyone does that.
- [34:01]
D
And I will say too, one thing that I do think is helpful is collaboration. Again, because I'm super into like talking to other artists. Talking to other. Even if they're not of the same medium of you of saying, I make. Let me tell you how bad I bombed.
- [34:15]
E
Yeah.
- [34:15]
D
On this show that I did. Let me. I'm gonna tell you the whole thing. And they laugh and they tell you the worst. And you've created then something else. You've created a good story, you've created a laugh, you've created a connection, a funny story out of your failure that's helped it. So I. If I were you, I would take a collection of my pottery that you just think is the worst thing, and I would make a collection and be like, you guys, look what I mean, this is what I was trying to make, and this is what I actually. And you just keep making because you're still doing it. You're creating something else out of something that you fear. So you're making fun of it, which you should. You should make fun of how. Not limiting what we create. Like, the worst things that have happened to me, the worst things. I'm like, with a little bit of time, this is going to be a funny story. And I don't say that lightly. You know? You know what I mean? Like, there's some things I'm like, I will never laugh about this. And a great writer, comedian Eric D. Snyder, told me, like, you can joke or laugh about anything. And I'm like, I don't know if that's true. I think there's a couple of things that are not appropriate to laugh about. He's like, well, no, if it's the right joke, you just haven't thought of the right joke for it. And. And I think we could treat it more playfully. Creativity, a little bit more playfully and not take everything so seriously. Like, this pot has to represent my worth as a creator on the earth. No, it's. That's me having fun. You're playing. And this is. You know, when we're kids, we don't ask anyone's permission to do any of these things that we're talking about.
- [35:42]
E
Yeah.
- [35:43]
D
We don't ask any. We don't say, why is it so hard? Why wouldn't I do it? We just play. We get lost in the moment. We give ourselves permission. We know that play is part of human development, that when kids don't play, they. Their growth is stunted. We know this. We know as educators that. That. That real education is by doing if they can do it and if they can play in the present and get lost in it. And yet as adults, we just think oh, the parameters have to be right.
- [36:11]
E
Yes, totally.
- [36:12]
D
Yeah. But that, that I think is a shield for like I'm scared.
- [36:15]
E
Yeah, totally.
- [36:16]
B
Yeah. I feel like I have to justify it. Like there has to be some sort of value based reason why I'm going to do this creative thing or the product. The result has to be also something valuable. It's like got to be one of
- [36:26]
D
the other and you have to monetize it or you have to justify it or something like that for it to be. This is why I think everyone should bring back like doing something mediocre, you know, like mediocre, like play the piano even if you're not very good.
- [36:38]
C
Well, if you think what you were saying about the Hooverman. Andrew Hooverman defines creativity.
- [36:42]
D
Yes.
- [36:43]
C
As two phases divergent, which the wider you explore things, the better. Nothing's wrong there you are exploring everything and then the convergence when you look at it and go, not all this is great, you know, and editing out, but you don't get to the one without having volume and mistakes and figuring it out. I think it's important to keep open to possibilities at least early on. And I think that's true with spiritual things as well. I think about prayer and if I go with a preconceived notion what my answer should be, a limited range that I want God to answer me, then I'm not sometimes get anything. But if I'm really truly open and humble to receive anything and take it anywhere, then things will start to happen and miraculous things that I didn't even know were on the table. And the same is true with creativity. Right. The wider you're open to options, interesting things happen.
- [37:39]
D
That's so true. Rick Rubin said the art is not in the tools and the materials we use, but it's how we see the world, how we see things that would otherwise be hidden, that are right in front of us, that we wouldn't, that we see in a new way. That's. That's what art is. Yeah.
- [37:57]
B
Sometimes you'll have that experience of like something is lighting you up from the inside and your feet are moving before you can even your brain can catch up. But I all and, and that is very close to the feeling of being nervous about something. It's still like this very high energy experience for me. And, and I was thinking about you, Lisa, on the the Thrilling Nurse. Do you, do you trust that, that feeling of anxious energy that maybe this is a good, this is good energy moving you to some, to like the edge of your, you know, where you're growing or I don't know when are you just like, this is not my thing because I'm so nervous?
- [38:28]
D
No, that's a really good question because I think we go through seasons of life, right? And you're asking me about my feelings. Am I feeling like I'm really good at feelings? I feel all the things all the time. I'm super good at it. And it, and it can be a lot, right? And, and I think like self doubt, like imposter syndrome, like a lot of things in my life, I recognize it and I, I go, oh, this. And if I can name it and, and say it and, and, and name it with my other collab, like the other thrilling errors or the other actors that I'm doing it, I'd be like, oh, I'm weirdly nervous about that and share that. Then it just kind of, it floats away a little bit. More often than not. I think sometimes when you have that feeling, you need to push through it and do it anyway. And I think one of the ways that I have practiced doing that is through habits and things like that of saying, oh, I'm really nervous. I could be at home in my bed watching TV and instead I'm here on a stage and I am nervous and I've got to make up something that I don't know and that can add pressure. But if I'm on the stage and I'm thinking I'm with my friends and I love doing this and we're going to play and we all want to have a good time here, the audience, we do. So we're going to have a good time together. This is such a gift and a moment in time because coordinating all of that doesn't come easy and it doesn't happen very often and, and doing it, it usually takes me two or three seconds just to get like right, right into it. And then afterwards I go, you know, you can get nervous or things like that. But I do think that there is something great in the habit of it and acknowledging it. Because sometimes, you know, some creative pursuits are outward facing and some are in solitude. And I don't think that one is necessarily better than the other. I just think they're sort of different, but I think they have that same element of you show up and do it right. Like you have, you practice, you, you do your sc. Your practices. There's a lot of things that I practice for. To be ready to let it all fly out the window, to do improv of things and games and ways to, to, to practice and get my brain into answering things in the moment or being used to doing things with friends or listening skills. You know, there are things to any art form that you can, you know, practice to feel a little confidence on that. But there's always going to be that threshold. I don't care what, what creative art it is. And. And I think that the same thing can be said in spirituality and communion with God too. You know, I love that exp. That example that you gave about, like prayer. How many times do we go and say, okay, I need these things? And instead of saying, I'm coming to commune with you. What. What have I not even thought about that? You want to. Can we have a conversation? Can we have an experience together? This is how I'm feeling. I mean, prayer can be. And that kind of communion with God can be so many things in and out of the temple. Personally. Yeah, we limit ourselves when we say it. It's going to be like this. It actually is a freeing thing when you're like, I don't know what this experience is going to be like. Yeah, yeah. Humbling experience.
- [41:30]
C
You're like a little kid just being vulnerable. I. I know that's. I. I don't experience quite the performance anxiety because I'm usually in my studio, but I had a similar experience recently. I used to draw from the figure a lot. I was really good at it at some time. Been some time since I've done that. And so I went to J. Kirk Richards studio and thought, I've got to get back. You know, I've lost some of that skill set. But I remember it initially I was kind of a little self conscious. I was around younger artists and it's like, it's been a while and anyway. But I had to focus while I was there and forget myself and realize I'm there to improve and to connect with something I once did well. And so I think it's a lot of times it's ego that you're worried to look back.
- [42:14]
D
Yeah.
- [42:14]
C
Looking bad in front of other people. And so I. I try to think it's about having the experience. And it doesn't matter how good I'm at the. The skill I once had, I think.
- [42:26]
E
I mean, what's. I don't know if Kirk, hopefully he'd be okay if we said this, but we once saw him install a painting and he walked in with this painting. It was absolutely gorgeous.
- [42:35]
B
Like, everybody's jaw was on the floor.
- [42:37]
D
I'm sure, you know, he's just incredible.
- [42:40]
E
And he walks in and says, I'm not done yet. It, like, as if we were all looking at it and, you know, judging it, and it's. It's the most beautiful thing I've ever seen, you know?
- [42:47]
A
Yeah.
- [42:48]
D
I don't know anybody who does it professionally who doesn't.
- [42:50]
C
Yeah, yeah. No, you're always looking at things and that, you know.
- [42:55]
E
Yeah.
- [42:55]
A
Yeah.
- [42:56]
B
And this is one more way it feels like creativity is. Can be an avenue into a deeper spirituality. Like, it is. It's just like the. The. It forces you to really challenge your ego and practice having exposure is just letting it go and. And having that experience of real vulnerability. And. And, I mean, I. I think that that's what we're go. That's what we're hoping to create in our spiritual lives. And this is an avenue to do that again and again and again. Every experience is gonna. Is gonna involve some sort of vulnerability and a choice to just To. To let your ego feel so exposed and. And be okay.
- [43:32]
D
Oh, totally. And I feel like in my personal life, when I found myself in a situation where I was literally having to recreate every aspect of my life and, like, kind of build a new life again, I was so surprised by how closely it mirrored, like, what I had learned in improvisation of all things, really, to give me the language and the courage to say, oh, no, you can do this, because you practiced this before. And it was like. It was a very deeply spiritual, really, like, connecting experience for me. And this is still. Because God is speaking to me in a way that I can understand, using experiences that I. That I have to see it that way. And I was really surprised by that, but in a. In a beautiful way.
- [44:26]
B
Like, you've practiced the yes. You practice just like, the yes. And then we're gonna.
- [44:30]
D
Like. I always say, you accept whatever offering comes to you, even if it's the worst offering in the world, and you add something to it because you don't know. You don't know if it's the worst offering. Like, it stops the moment of it. And so when I was given the worst offering in the world, and after my, you know, husband died and. And my children and I are depressed, and the. The life and the future that we had sacrificed and built for doesn't exist at all, and there's no plan, then what? And it was like, well, what's the next thing? Here's your offering. Now what one? And I was just like, oh, this is just like in Prague.
- [45:02]
B
Yes.
- [45:02]
C
That makes me think of the Torrance Creativity Test, which is a test that evaluates creativity in others. And the one thing they graded on is delaying closure. And I think we often rush to close things out, like your story's ended now, you know, or this happened literally. And so delaying closure and keeping it open and the possibilities. And I think we often do that spiritually and in our life. We tell a narrative that. That's short. And I've had to think, okay, this. You know, I've had similar family situations. Not similar, but I. We can relate that we've had some challenges in our family life. And. And when those things happen, you have a choice to keep it open and say, okay, and now what? How can I make this work? How can I make this a balanced, beautiful thing that's not expected? And we. We have to keep it open. It's not over yet. And. And so.
- [46:00]
D
Yeah, and. And that's admitting all the things that you don't know. And I used to think admitting what you don't know or not having a plan or not having a structure meant that things weren't true or working. And it can mean lots of things. Yeah. It can mean that God trusts you. It can mean that there's a different. That you need to. To change everything in a different way, and you just. You don't know what it. It means until you're experiencing it.
- [46:25]
B
Yeah.
- [46:25]
D
Yeah. That immediacy. I really appreciate that.
- [46:27]
B
That. Will you talk, James, about the point and the line?
- [46:31]
C
Yeah. So there's a book by Wasley Kandinsky. It's probably 100 years ago. We're not contemporaries, but he had a book called Point to Line to Plane. And I was thinking about this and having a conversation with other artists of how I think about. It's interesting. He's talking about the formal properties of drawing, that it starts with a point and then you push it and it moves and it creates a line. And from that, line becomes a. A shape, and then the shape becomes a form. And I was thinking about how that may parallel in my mind. It made me think about kneeling. And that's a point of contact, if we allow it, where we start to commune with God and we're open. And a lot of my prayers happen after I get up off my knees. And the answers come as I move through the day, forming that line and connecting with others and starting to form meaning and. And wider dimensions by acting in. Through the day that God. God gives me the answers I'm looking for. In fact, rarely do I have my answers just delivered like it's downloaded, you know, it's. It's an interactive Thing that I have to be engaged in the world. And that line needs to be pushed. And that means a little bit that I don't know what's gonna happen today. But I have confidence that God will direct me, that answers will come, being positive that it will come in his time. And I'm open. And that's the other thing. When I was younger, I thought. Thought I'm not getting off my knees until I get an answer. Like, well, I can't coerce. I'm going to get the answer now, or I'm not going anywhere. But I found that's just not the way it works for, at least for me, that I need to move through the day, and the answer will come when I'm ready to receive them.
- [48:05]
D
Yeah. Yeah.
- [48:05]
B
That's so beautiful. Thank you. I would love to just hear if there is a practice that you would love to invite people into as they're sort of imagining, expanding their own creative gifts or. Or. Or exploring the way that God maybe be ready to connect with them through a new language. Is there something that maybe it's a practice or. Or just something that has been fruitful for either of you in your. In both your spiritual lives and your creative lives?
- [48:29]
C
Yeah, I. I'm teaching a lot now about visual journaling, and I. I taught a creative aging class on individuals 55 or older about visual journaling. And I love that because it's a safe space. You close it up, but you really can work things out and you can chronicle your life. I was talking to an artist last week that they draw every meal they have that they really think is fantastic. You know, you have to see this in a restaurant, but it can be a very personal space to figure things out. And also as a diary that, you know, chronicles whatever you want to focus on. And so I think that's a great place. It's safe. No one else sees it unless you want them to. And I think it will be a great mirror about what you're feeling and thinking. And I have spiritual things in there. I have emotional things in there. I have travels. Really can be anything you want. Is it very adaptable to everyone's skill level?
- [49:18]
B
Yeah, I love that idea.
- [49:20]
D
Mine is kind of. This is similar because I think everybody can write. And, you know, a lot of people talk about morning pages. You just write free writing just as fast as you can. I have found that I've been called into remembrance of things and understood them through a gratitude journal and during a very difficult time of my life. And I would. I write five Things at the end of the day that I was very grateful for and I would never repeat anything. And I wanted to get as specific as possible. And a lot of perspective changed for me. And I found myself, like, writing things in a different way and more description and. And smells and tastes. I mean, a lot of the entries were about food and.
- [49:58]
E
But.
- [49:59]
D
But it has been a beautiful way to sort of chronicle the things. And then. And then the second thing that I would say too, is Del Close, who was a great improviser and a teacher and, you know, Bill Murray and all these great people, talked about the idea of leveling up. That. And. And again, this is the language that of creativity that. That speaks to me about how if you see in a scene partner that you want to give them the best experience instead of being in competition with them, that you want to listen and set them up for success, then what you create together, you level up. You say, hey, I'm going here. You. You meet me here. And then they. They raise it, and onward and onward, and you both raise it together. And so I've tried that, too. That's a great practice when you're having a conversation with a friend. When you create relationships or you're trying to help somebody, you're thinking, how can I show up for you and be the best scene partner to you, whether that's your spouse or your friend or a stranger or colleague, in listening and what you offer, great things can be created out of that, almost like an endless thing. And. And so that's a. That's a great framework or practice of, of being a good listener and, and scene partner in that and creating anything.
- [51:14]
B
So beautiful. Thank you so much. I just. I feel excited about the way these are. These are so immediately useful in our. In a regular life. It just feels like such fruitful ground to feel connected. So thank you both for all of your work and your wisdom.
- [51:29]
D
Thanks for having me.
- [51:30]
C
Wonderful.
- [51:32]
A
All right, thanks so much for listening. We really hope that you enjoyed this conversation with James Reese and Lisa Valentine Clark. If you'd like to see James's art, you can visit his website@jamesreeseart.com and you can hear more from Lisa on her podcast, the Lisa Show. Wherever you listen to podcasts, and if this episode resonated with you, we would be so grateful if you would rate and review the podcast. It really helps other people find out about these conversations. And as always, you can check out more@faithmatters.org.