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- [00:00]
Nicole
Welcome, welcome, welcome to the Fantasy Fangirls podcast where two sisters dive deep into beloved fantasy lore, character themes, theories and more.
- [00:10]
Lexi
I'm Lexi.
- [00:11]
Nicole
I'm Nicole.
- [00:12]
Lexi
And this episode takes all of our Mass Verse Madness segments from our 2024 ACOTAR series deep Dive, putting them all in one place for you to easily access. Huzzah.
- [00:22]
Nicole
This episode is for all of you who had to skip over our Mass versus Madness parts at the end of every Acotar episode. We did. But now you've read all of SJM's books, you're ready to catch up on this part of our Deep dive. So by popular demand, here you go. Now you do not need to go through every single episode and scroll to find where Mass versus Madness is. It is all right here in one happy place for you. We also have a YouTube playlist that compiles all of the Mass vs Madness segments from each book. So if you prefer to watch these Mass versus Madness parts of each episode per book verse all together like it will be for the entire Acotar series here, then check out the link in our show notes.
- [01:03]
Lexi
So first things first. Spoiler warning for the entire Mass verse. This includes all eight of the Throne of Glass books and all three Crescent City books, as well as of course the five Acadar books too that we covered during all of this Deep dive.
- [01:17]
Nicole
So with all of that said, if you have not finished the Mass verse, this is your cue to leave. Three, two, one, one. Okay, so if you don't know that Aylin shoots across the sky on Starfall, if you don't know that Bryce drops her butt into Prythian, if you don't know that we get the Celine download tying it all together, then please go finish the mask first. We'll be here when you're done.
- [01:44]
Lexi
Told you there were spoilers. Next up, we have Fantasy Fangirls are adults who say adult things about adult books. In other words, friends, this podcast is.
- [01:52]
Nicole
Rated R. We do talk about Chapter 55, believe it or not, in the Mass First Madness compilation, so please be mindful of those little listening ears.
- [02:01]
Lexi
We're also pulling in content that we did back in February so we don't remember. So just blanket R rated warning it's us.
- [02:09]
Nicole
And now it is time to dive into all the Mass Verse connections and theories that we Discuss during our 11 month ACOTAR series coverage. Let's start with the Throne of Glass through Air of Fire reference first word markings. So on the cottage for Feyre's family, we get quote faded ward markings Etched around the threshold. Well, it doesn't really do anything for Timmy Tam. It does not do anything to help keep him out. But many people believe that this is a nod to word marks, or even actual word marks from the Throne of Glass series. And this is not the last word marks nod we will get. In the Acotar World, we also get a mention of iron. And something I find really interesting is the difference of iron in the Acotar World versus the Throne of Glassworld. In Acotar, iron doesn't do diddly squat against these fairies, but it's a big rumor among humans that iron will defend against them. Like Lexi said, both Elain and Nesta have iron on their person when they go into town. Isaac has an iron cuff. Elain will eventually have an iron engagement ring. Yikes. But we later learn from Tamlin and Lucien that iron doesn't do anything against fairies. Which is odd because in Throne of Glass, we learned that iron diminishes the fairy magic. But we know from Crescent City that the Tog Fey and the Acotar Fae are two different types of Fae. So if perhaps the iron only works for that one type. But then it brings into the conversation, do we believe that someone from the Throne of Glass World is a worldwalker and brought the rumor about iron working against fairies into the Acotar Human lands, thinking that it was the same type of fairy? We don't know, but that's my guess. Nesta is described as a queen without a throne in these opening chapters. In Crescent City 3, when Bryce leaves Prythian for the last time, she gives Nesta the sword star sword, or Guidian as it's familiar in our Acotar World, saying, basically, go figure out why the fucking eight pointed star was tattooed on your back. While it's theorized that Elain will become High lady of the Spring Court, just like Feyre is the High lady of the Night Court, it's also theorized that Nesta will become the High lady of the resurrected Dusk Court, which we know the Dusk Court was on the same land that the prison is now on. The prison had an eight pointed star on the floor when Nesta went to go and get the harp, which is one of the dread trove items. So. So it would make sense that if Nesta had this tattoo and Bryce was like, wink, wink, hint, hint. It sounds like you have some kind of connection to this Dusk Court nonsense. It might make sense that her and Cassian go off to resurrect this Dust Court. First one is as Feyre is walking around looking for Lucian. She feels like two someones are watching her quote. A faint sniff and a quiet giggle issued from far too close. The shimmering in the corner of my eye grew larger, separating into two small figures no taller than my waist. Some people believe that these are the little folk or fairies from the throne of Glassworld who are the smaller cousins to the human like Fae. While their forms do vary, there are very specific ones who regularly watch Celaena in the forest when she is on her way to the Glass Castle and even leave her gifts later on in the series. It's not a direct one to one comparison, however, they are described as full of mischief in Tog and curious and wanting to play in Acotar. So it is possible that these are two different types of species, but it's fun to think that they are the same ones just in different universes.
- [05:34]
Lexi
Also, Tamlin inquires to Feyre, do you speak to mercenaries often? After last episode, a lot of people pointed out to us that the mercenary is a similar description to Fury Xtar from Crescent City. This is not the only mention to someone who could be Fury as we get into the Acotar books, but we are saving a big deep dive on Fury's potential presence in this world for later episode before we get into the pool of Starlight theories, I want to point out the small symbols that Feyre notices in the mural. They're part of the contents poured out from the cauldron, and she notes that perhaps there's some ancient fairy language we learn from House of Flame and Shadow. I'm pausing real quick in case you need to jump off. Okay, spoilers incoming. That Midgard and Prythian share the same ancient old Fae language. When Bryce speaks it, Amren confirms it hasn't been heard in 15,000 years. I'm guessing this must be the ancient Fae language from way back when in this world.
- [06:25]
Nicole
One thing I do want to say on that note though is there are a lot of crossover theories thinking that word marks and this same Mingard and Prythian ancient Fey language are all the same ancient Fae language.
- [06:40]
Lexi
Okay, we're going to summarize several Starlight crossover references and theories. Please do understand that we are only scratching the surface here because there are some deep rabbit holes. Let's look at Crescent City theories first. Number one, this liquid starlight is a form of First, Crescent City's Autumn King was researching a very similar liquid to the description we get of starlight. He was studying an iridescent liquid for quote how light moves for the world how it can be shaped.
- [07:08]
Nicole
We do get confirmation that the Daglan in the Acotar world are indeed the Asteri. In the Crescent City world, the Asteri fed off of First Light. And we know that the Daglan drank liquid magic, like wine. Put two and two together, the Daglan drank First Light, AKA what we call the Pool of Starlight here. So this Pool of Starlight, for lack of a better word, is left over from 15,000 thousand years ago, when the Daglin ruled. Or if we know that this starlight is First Light, and we know that the High Lord's magic comes from the Earth, does that mean on Calamite they're producing First Light? Quite possibly. Or shedding a tiny bit of it. Obviously it's not like the drop at all, but Kalamai could be their way of giving a little First Light, AKA starlight, back into the Earth to keep the magic of the land flourishing. Now, theory number two, connecting the Crescent City world. We're going back to the explanation of Tamlin and Rhys's s mates. Remember, the Night Court and the Supreme Court are enemies, and they fought on opposite ends of the war. If Tamlin and Rhys's sister were mates, this alliance would have been seen as a threat because this would have been joining two rival courts. Very Romeo and Juliet. Side note, last episode, we speculated why Tamlin doesn't use his shape shifting to make wings. This might be one of the reasons why. Because he was so pained by losing his mate. It would also make sense that Tamlin already had a mate. Why? He never mentioned him and Feyre having a mating bond. He never said that their mating bo would happen for them. And in fact, it's always Feyre who is wanting it to click into place or wondering when it'll click into place. Little does she know back to him and Rhys's sister being mates, though, as a mating present, like Lexi said earlier, Tamlin could have received the Pool of Starlight from Rhys's sister. Or also like Lexi mentioned earlier, Tamlin could have burned the wings here and that's how the Pool of Starlight emerged. But Nicole, what does this have to do with CC spoilers? Well, because in CC3, when Selene appears in the prison, Azrael says, quote, she looks like Rhysand's sister. Now, Selene wouldn't be Rhysand's sister per se. Those timelines definitely wouldn't match up. But Selene could definitely be a direct descendant. And Selene was a member of what family line? Yep, the Starborn Fae. So it could make sense that this direct descendant of the starborn Fae was tied to this pool of starlight. Whether it was a gift of her mate or her wings being burned on that site number three. Some wonder if the pool of starlight consists seep into the ground and charge certain magical paths. Lexi mentioned earlier how it could be a portal, but let's tie it to both Throne of Glass and for Crescent City. For instance, the magical ley lines of Crescent City or Silva's tomb in the Torre Chesme from Tog would be of similar instances here, but in a court of silver flames. Amren says about the Bog of Urid, quote, they say the water there flows to under the mountain. And the creatures who live in the bog have long used its underground waterways to travel through the middle, even into the mountains of surrounding courts. So these waterways do exist in Prythian. But this type of source almost you know, that first light esque and feeding into the ground for the Daglan and the Asteri. It could have also been traveling under the waterways to the Hewn City, to whatever is under Ramiel. Or to under the prison where one of the Asteris was waiting for 15,000 years. AKA the remnants of the Duskourt.
- [10:24]
Lexi
And to keep it going here with Throne of Glass, there is a river in Empire of Storms where Aelin and the crew are on a boat and the caves were, quote, filled with starlight. There could be very similar magic at play here. Maybe not directly connected, but again, those same types of magic, same types of things in these different universes. There's also just the full blown possibility that the Pool of Starlight is a word gate and portal into these other realms too. Not just a portal between Perythean, but to these other realms as a whole.
- [10:54]
Nicole
Well, let us not forget that in Kingdom of Ash, Aelin is shooting across the night sky across many different portals. And she is supposedly one of the spirits on Starfall. So Starfall, Pool of Starlight. She might have used that as a word. There could all be connected there, I don't know. So Feyre in her Goodbye to Nesta says, quote, There is a better world, Nesta. There's a better world out there waiting for you to find it. Oh, I'm getting chills. I couldn't help but read this and think of Nesta in chapter a Hundred of Jesus Christ. It's a lot of chapters of Crescent City. Three in one of the most.
- [11:31]
Lexi
I'm so glad we're not doing Crescent City.
- [11:32]
Nicole
Oh my God, so many chapters in One of the most heart wrenching chapters of CC3. There's not a lot, so the bar is kind of low, but this one at least. Ember tells Nesta, quote, you'll find your way. This feels so reminiscent of Feyre's goodbye to Nesta here in book one of Acotar, telling her there's a better world out there waiting for for you to find it. But there's that extra element of quote waiting for you to find it. Let us not forget that Bryce's parting words to Nesta are quote, I think that eight pointed star was tattooed on you for a reason. Take that sword and go figure out why there is a better world out there for Nesta to discover Prythian, her mate. But what if this also includes the Dusk Court? Speaking of Nesta and the Dusk Court, we get a possible foreshadowing moment for her being a high lady or some element of power. Quote, There were no limit to what Nesta might do, what she might make for herself when she found a place to call her own. I prayed I would be lucky enough to see it someday. Don't like that foreshadowing with knowing her and Rhys's bond that they make at the end of Acowar. But this right here is just a blatant neon sign that yes, she's going to make a place. She's going to find a family to call her own. You know, the found family trope is everywhere in silver flames, but a place to call her own might be a court to call her own.
- [12:56]
Lexi
There's a theory that Amarantha is vogue, and we'll explore this more in future books as we dissect the King of Hybern also being a possible vlog too. But of course we got to talk about Amarantha right here. While Amarantha is very powerful, I'd assume she would be a vog princess and not a queen. Princesses are not as powerful as queens. I imagine the King of Hybern would be a Vulg king in comparison. If you need a quick reminder, Volg are demons from another realm in the Throne of Glass series. They are powerful and malicious and can possess people by going inside the host bodies to control them. Valg princes, or princesses in this case, are especially cold and calculating. They delight in both emotional pain as well as physical torture. Hey, that sounds like our girl Amarantha compared to the regular Vog, which are more like vog royalties, I'll say. Henchmen. The Attar, speaking of henchmen, is A very similar description as the Ilkin, which are huge demonic creatures with large wings and venomous claws. They are cronies of the Valg. So this would definitely fit for the Adder to be like an Ilkin, if Amarantha or Hybern are Vog.
- [14:01]
Nicole
So Adders do live in the Irelia world.
- [14:06]
Lexi
I have not finished the series and I do not know that.
- [14:10]
Nicole
Well, there you go.
- [14:11]
Lexi
Hybrid's book does seem to be a wordmark book. So Amarantha may be using the Throne of Glass Universe magic because, well, hey, they're crossovers. Amarantha, this is one of the biggest emphasis of why people think that she is Evolg. She has black eyes, which is the signature trait of a Vog inside someone. So Amarantha may be Vogue, specifically a princess, because of how powerful she is.
- [14:35]
Nicole
Now, here's one thing I do want to say is that Amarantha's blood in the next stretch is not described as black. And that would be something definitely described. However, Maeve, who is a Vog queen, did convince did trick Rowan and the fellow cadre into believing that she was not Vog and she was just totally normal by glamouring, for lack of a better term, glamouring her blood to appear normal. So this is not out of the question that that magic does exist and Amarantha could have done that, but what a time to do that is like, oh my God, my throat's being ripped out by man bear pig. But glamour.
- [15:13]
Lexi
Speaking of which, Amarantha isn't necessarily beheaded, which is one of the surefire ways to kill Evolg. Plus fire is another way, but her throat is literally ripped out by Tamlin. So I guess close enough. I will say this, I don't think Amarantha has enough of her own power to inflict onto others the way that the Vulg easily can. She more so seems to use the high phase trapped powers against them to protect herself from them. But hey, I love this theory. I think it's fun and possible, especially with the whole like her red blood having to be glamored there. If she is a Vogue though, I'm going to go with no on the Tamlin is her mate theory. I don't think that both of them would be true. If either one of them are true, having Tamlin's mate be a vulg, that would be a real tough look for him and I don't think that fits.
- [16:03]
Nicole
I will go more with she is using the magic of word marks and is not Vogue.
- [16:08]
Lexi
Yes, me too.
- [16:09]
Nicole
Yeah, that I think that would be more what I'd lean towards an old name from one of our earlier dialects. What earlier dialects? Could this be a Prythian version of the old language? Or could this be the language that Amaran mentions in the Book of Breathings like I mentioned earlier AKA the language of Bryce's tattoo, AKA K, AKA word marks? I doubt it. Just because word marks are so unique and like how they're described and how like especially with the Book of Breathings like it's possible. But I doubt doubt it. I think it's more likely that this old language is closer to Rowan's tattoo, which is in a script of an old language specifically not stated as wordmarks.
- [16:51]
Lexi
I agree with that, especially with saying earlier dialects. I don't think that is the old Fae language that hasn't been spoken in 15,000 years like that shocked Amren. So I don't think that this would be just casually tossed around in this way. So I do think that it is more so just one of their older dialects and it plays a lot more into Feyre's heritage versus the multiverse there.
- [17:13]
Nicole
Agreed. I do love the idea that that it's in the same or similar language as Rowan's tattoos. I want to learn.
- [17:18]
Lexi
I hadn't thought about it that way. I love that so much.
- [17:21]
Nicole
Yes, yes you Rowan. You beautiful silver haired man. Lady of Autumn. We gotta talk about her. So it is interesting that we never learn the lady of Autumn's name like I mentioned in the Deep Dive. But like most questions I went to Reddit and Kara Auden had an interesting post about this. Wondering if after we learned about her affair with Hel Baron pulled some Tog magic using a similar spell that was put on the King of Otterlin AKA Dorian the First and made to forget their name and identity. Personally I am leaning away from this theory because of how she is still so connected emotionally to Lucian and wanting to save him. And we saw what happened to Daddy Odorian. He didn't give a flying about Baby Dorian. But on this thread Nate Translates had a different take wondering if her name is instead more of a connection to the Autumn King rune Dannon's line since we know his line of Fae is from the Prythian world, this would not be out of the question if they are related Now Ruhn looking just like Rhys is where I have some raised eyebrows on that, but I just found it interesting the idea that lady of Autumn's name could be connected to these other worlds as well. Next the Midden Guard Wyrm Being from Midgard, question mark. Question mark. Because of the portals in these worlds, it is not out of the question that the Midgard Wyrm is from Crescent City Midgard.
- [18:47]
Lexi
Bryce even asks if they came from her world originally. And I quote, horrific as the creature was, to have another being from her world here was oddly comforting. That's a Bryce reaction, to say the least.
- [19:00]
Nicole
That's a Bryce Crescent City 3 reaction.
- [19:03]
Lexi
To say the least. Then Nesta goes on to be like, I don't know. Like, how would I know? She doesn't even know that Bryce's world existed a week ago. Of course she doesn't know. And I love how Nesta goes on to confirm that the Midden Guard worms aren't common, but mentions how Feyre defeated one. I absolutely loved seeing this on the page when I was reading House of Flame and Shadow. Tying us right back to this first book and Feyre's first task. Going up against one and Nesta is like, dang. I thought she exaggerated the painting, but nope, that thing is as terrifying as she depicted. What a sisterly reaction right there. But just in general, we get a Midden Guard Wyrm in both books. Granted, it's in the same world that they occur, but it was nice to see the Alaskan bullworm again in House of Flame and Shadow. Shadow.
- [19:48]
Nicole
And just a quick note to kind of more even more so separate these. Midgard in Norse in Old Norse means Middle Earth and Midden, as in the first part of Midden. Guard Worm in Old Norse means manure pile. And in Norse, dragons are typically depicted as worms and stated as such, but it's typically spelled W O R M. So if we're really translating this word for like, basically word for word in Old Norse, Midgard Wurm means manure pile dragons. So I do not think that they are connected.
- [20:20]
Lexi
This next crossover callout is actually in reference to our under the Mountain surreal segment after highlighting the sacred mountain in the middle. While under the Mountain, Feyre notices carvings on the walls that depicted fairies and High Fae and animals in various environments and states of movement. They're described as stories of Parthian. You know where else we've seen these stories of a land? Let's go back to House of Flame and Shadow with Vesperus, one of the Daglan and the only one left behind after the rest were defeated and forced to flee Perythean. This is the one Bryce stupidly frees and Nesta has to kill. I know. Nicole's like, don't you dare get on this high horse right now. We don't have time for that. Go listen to our CC3 Reactions video.
- [21:00]
Nicole
Or our interview with Daniel where he just goes off on this book.
- [21:04]
Lexi
Vesperus and the rest of the Daglan had hidden a pool of their magic under quote every sacred mountain. Amaranthus Court under the mountain is literally under one of Prythian's sacred mountains. So we can infer that the Daglan hid one of their magical pools in this sacred mountain. We see more of these kind of carvings in the caves in Part one of House of Flame and Shadow when Azriel, Bryce and Nesta are heading towards the prison and encounter Vespers. The carvings show warnings of booby traps and tell stories of great fate, battles, lovemaking and childbirth. A masked queen and a crown on her head, bearing instruments in her hand. Hello dread troves. They are also in a sacred mountain at the time. And then there are also of these carvings in Avalon's caves called the Cave of Princes or Helena's Cave. Remember that Avalon is considered a thin place which makes it ideal for traveling between or communicating with other worlds. It is where Peleus, the first starborn prince who originated from Perithean and his descendants rested. This is a whole other rabbit hole to go down. I'm going to stop here and simply stick to pointing out these story carvings and how they all tie together in our stories. Makes you wonder if there's more to these sacred mountains than we already know, and I definitely see us exploring more of their meanings and how these worlds are further connected with Nesta on her quest to see why she was chosen for the eight Pointed star.
- [22:30]
Nicole
This episode is brought to you by Dutch Bros. Get stoked for all the holly jolly vibes this season at Dutch Bros. Stay cozy with returning winter faves. Hazelnut Truffle Mocha and Candy cane mocha. Plus the new Winter Shimmer Rebel energy.
- [22:44]
Lexi
Drink blends up sweet cream and blue.
- [22:47]
Nicole
Blue razz flavor with soft top and shimmer springs to keep those spirits energized all winter long. Download the Dutch Bros app to find your nearest shop. Order ahead and start earning rewards.
- [22:58]
Lexi
We are now going to enter our Mass Verse Madness segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. It's a short one for today and just to be conservative, we are giving a blanket spoiler for all of Throat of Glass as well as all of Crescent city, especially Crescent City 3. I will really plug that in here. Okay, so if want spoilers for these books we are lovingly saying goodbye and we will see you again soon.
- [23:23]
Nicole
The priestesses, now that we have them in our story, I want to call out the priestesses. In the three worlds of the Mass verse, they're occasionally mentioned in the Throne of Glass. More of just like a part of the world, a part of the society. But there is an important moment when Aelin, she's going by Celaena at the time in Era Fire, realizes where the third word key is. Quote, it had been around her neck the night that she fell into the river and around the neck of every one of her ancestors going back to Br Brannon himself when he stopped at the Sun Goddess's temple to take the medallion from Mala High Priestess and then destroyed the entire site to prevent anyone from tracing his steps. Priestesses are also mentioned in Assassin's Blade during the short story of when Celaena is heading to the desert to train as a punishment from Arabin. There's mentioned a white haired priestess in this stretch who worshiped Lonnie, the goddess of dreams. White haired. I automatically relate up to Rowan, so I have some questions there. But that's for throwing a Glass deep dive. That's for an Assassin's Blade deep dive. Some noticeable priestesses in the Crescent City world are obviously Jesiba Roga. She was the priestess of the Great Library of Parthos, and she was present when the Library was attacked 15,000 years prior to the beginning of our story. This is when she takes all the books, she hops on a ship, and then for 15,000 years she's just basically the garter of knowledge and a awesome bitch. I love Jessica. RIP my girl. You shouldn't have died.
- [24:49]
Lexi
I'm pissed about it.
- [24:50]
Nicole
Separately from our High Priestesses though, Tamlin mentions how there's never been a High lady, but that's technically actually not true. During our download with Selene from Crescent City three under the prison, she mentions how the High Lord of the Night Court at the time was wanting her Selene to become High lady of the Night Court, but she refused. However, it stated as quote he wanted me to be High lady as the other lords mates were, but I refused. So technically there were High ladies, just like 15,000 years ago.
- [25:21]
Lexi
Interesting. Speaking of Tamlin, we get another connection between Tamlin and a stag. So let's pull out the significant stags in the other universes. Every mention of a stag in the entire Acotar series, but one is in reference to Tamlin in so I really do think of Tamlin very closely connected to the stags in Throne of Glass, the Lord of the north appears as a huge white stag with flaming antlers and an immortal glow. He is the symbol of Terrasen and lives in the oak walled forest and is considered a beacon of hope. What does Tamlin have to hunt and kill on? Calami, a great white stag. And then Tamlin, he's also a shapeshifter. And Lydia from Crescent City shifts into a deer. While we're talking about shapeshifters, we have to give Lysandra from Throne of Glass a huge shout out there. She is also a very rare shapeshifter. I believe that the stag connection between these worlds plus Tamlin's shape shifting power, it's a small link to a much greater interconnection. And I'm so excited to dive more into that later on.
- [26:25]
Nicole
There are some people who wonder if Tamlin is from the Throne of Glass world. However, the iron is what makes me think, no, he's not. Because in Throne of Glass, the Fae who are all shape shifters. Yes. But they all have one animal form that they transform into. Like for instance, AEN had. Her animal form is a human. Rowan's animal is a bird form. You know, Fenris, we have a dog. It is a. Is it a hawk? I know. She just calls him Fluffy or feathers or whatever it is, it's perfect. Ruffled or something like that. God, I love their connection. But because Tamlin is able to shapeshift into anything much more Lysandra, I would say that he's much more connected to the Lysandra form of magic. But because of the iron thing, I don't think that he's from that world necessarily.
- [27:10]
Lexi
I don't think he's. He personally is from that world. But I could definitely see. Well, no, because. Well, now we're getting really crazy here because there's the tog phase and then there are the Acotar phase and then Crescent City is where they all come together.
- [27:25]
Nicole
Yes.
- [27:25]
Lexi
So let's pull ourselves out of that rabbit hole right now. So I don't think that there is a. I'll say a direct correlation or a direct connection between him specifically and any of these other world. But I do think that there is some symbolism here that does link all of those together. And his shape shifting as well as the stag are among those.
- [27:48]
Nicole
Absolutely.
- [27:48]
Lexi
Today's Mask Verse madness does include spoilers for all of the MAS verse. So if you have not finished the Throne of Glass series and Crescent City, we will see you next week.
- [27:59]
Nicole
We learn how winnowing works in the stretch of chapters and the Description of quote two different points on a piece of cloth. Sounds familiar. It's because it should sound familiar. It is almost identical language to CC2. When Cormac is describing how to teleport quote, you have to picture where you want to go, then simply allow yourself to take that step as if you were folding two points on a piece of paper so that the two points can meet. We do know that in the Acotar world it is extremely rare to winnow, and in CC it's even more so. Bryce can only do it if she's charged up. But I believe she actually only knows two other people who can do it. Don't quote me on that number. But in Throne of Glass, Fenris and Connell are the only two known characters who have this power. I tried to search for if there was ever a description of their version of this power and I couldn't find it. So I don't know if it is similar to the Sisi and the Acotar language.
- [28:55]
Lexi
The Tithe fairies quote as the next fairy, a goat legged fawn bearing what looked to be a basket of mushrooms. Hello, Juniper, race of fairy. That's awesome to see her. Not her specifically, but a similar races her.
- [29:09]
Nicole
So it is important to know that when the Daglan moved to being the Asteri in Midgard, she is the race of Faerie that came from the Acotar world rather than the throne of Glass world. We can assume based on this description. But speaking of the tithe, there is also another tithe when the Daglan ruled Prythian. Selene mentions how there was a once a year tithe which is offering up the kernels of power as tribute. Obviously they did not have a drop in the Daglan rule of Prythian, so this was their version of the drop. In order to feed read the Asteri.
- [29:41]
Lexi
Today's segment is going to focus on all three Crescent City books and up to Empire of Storms.
- [29:47]
Nicole
First up, is it possible that Cormac is also a shadow singer? Because in House of Flame and Shadow, Bryce is observing Asriel and quote could have sworn shadows wreathed him like runes, yet wilder the way Cormacs have been. When Cormac appears in Crescent City two rune Dannon knew three things and number one is is quote, he wasn't looking into a portal of hell after all. Shadows swirled there instead familiar whispering shadows. Also, it is repeatedly mentioned throughout the book that Cormac's shadows are trailing up and down his arms wrapping around him. Unlike runes that are closer to Rhys's Power of Night Shadow Esque. If Cormac is a Shadow Singer, odds are that he is a very unpracticed or untrained one, considering that we never really learned about these abilities beyond little hints here and there. And Boy is dead now, so we're probably not ever going to learn.
- [30:42]
Lexi
Those in Avalon have the parasite too though, right? So he was infected with it, which limited his powers. I wonder, if he had been at full power, would his Shadow Singing power be stronger and possibly more refined?
- [30:57]
Nicole
Yes, yes. Shall we get into some Amren theories?
- [31:00]
Lexi
Oh, let's let's just start scraping the surface. By the way, friends, like there's so many Mass Verse references as we continue on with Acotar series, we're going to do our best, but these are not the bulk of the episodes, so we're going to just tease them out episode by episode.
- [31:14]
Nicole
And also keep in mind we still have all of Acowor and all of Silver Flames, which are heavy mass verse crossovers and everything. So we're like Lexi said, we're really just scraping the surface here. When we meet Amren, we get mention of how Amren's eyes are silver and unearthly. I was curious about other silver eyes in the mass verse and I could only find one which was Arabin. I definitely do not think they're connected by any lineage way for a multitude of reasons, but it is interesting that we don't hear mention of his silver eyes until Queen of Shadows, which SJM released Queen of Shadows September 2015 and Acomaf came out eight months later. So she would have been working on them either simultaneously if not back to back. So maybe she just, you know, was digging silver eyes that year. But they're about 114,653 revolving around Amrit and there is no way for us to go through all of them right now. But let's bring up just a few. The first one is the Malachi theory. This is from a post by El Brunska on Reddit when Rigelus was giving his bad due speech at the end of Crescent City 2. He mentions how the Asteri bred a few versions of the angels until they had the Malachi. Who are the angels we now know in the Crescent City universe? The Malachi, spelled differently in Hebrew, means angels or Mesopotamia. Side note, when Cassian asks Amren in Acawor what she is, what does she say? A messenger. Amren mentions how she was bred not to feel emotion. Bread is a really interesting word choice here, especially when she goes on to say that the Lord and her father was a wrathful God who ruled over a young world. Rigelus the Asteri. We don't know, but I'm really curious to find more out about that. We'll go much more into this particular theory at a later date because on the same Reddit article Emmy Ego, who I'm pretty sure we quoted in our Empyrean coverage with a signet theory. Basically, Emmy Ego, you are on another plane of intelligence. Thank you. Emmy Ego mentions the Seraphim theory the Seraphim are a type of Old Testament angel. There's pulling it back to what Lexi was saying earlier, but they are also known as fire angels. But the Seraphim are also thought to be dragons. What does Rhys compare Amren to earlier? A fire drake, AKA the German Lord dragon who hoards their possessions. As Amren emerges from the cauldron in Acawor, she is, quote, light and fire. Feyre goes on to think, quote and I could have sworn I saw great burning wings, each feather in a similar ember spread wide. I could have sworn a crown of incandescent light floated just above her flaming hair. Emmy Ego also had pointed out that on the House of Sky and Breath book cover it is supposed to be hunt, AKA someone who's an angel. What's on the center of his chest? A dragon. We bow to you, Emmy Ego.
- [34:07]
Lexi
When describing the Demati, we learn that they are rare and only appear as Mother wills it. We do know about another Demotti in the mass verse Runedannan. In the Crescent City world, it's a limited form of telepathy known as mind speaking, so they're able to talk into each other's minds, but they can't read minds or control minds in the same way that Rhys and Farah can. Here it is considered, like I said, a very rare gift. Ruhn inherited this from his mother, and it is an ability among Avalon Fae which his mother is descended from, though her family defected from Avalon's court. But Lydia can also speak to others like Ruhn with this mind connection.
- [34:48]
Nicole
Let's move on to Azriel's dagger, AKA Truth Teller. Again, another one we are just scraping the surface of today. I have a very short question about Azriel's Emotional Support Dagger. And that is it is described as quote, it's dark scabbard embossed with a line of silver runes I never seen before. Silver runes gave me some pause. Feyre later calls it Illyrian runes, but I do wonder if it's another form of Wordmarks. We do know that the Book of Breathings is in wordmarks, so I'm leaning towards no. But anytime runes come up, I'm like word marks.
- [35:22]
Lexi
I think that it is that ancient Fae language. Remember back in the mural in Acotar and the Cauldron is pouring its contents out and it's like this ancient Fae language that we were initially talking about being that ancient Fae language. That's what I assumed here.
- [35:36]
Nicole
But would it be Illyrian?
- [35:37]
Lexi
That's only what Farah thinks.
- [35:39]
Nicole
True. That's true.
- [35:40]
Lexi
I think that is our unreliable narrator telling us that when really? Let me just get into the story here about Truth Teller. Truth Teller is the twin to guide in and they called to each other made together with the Cauldron's powers. So they were literally made not necessarily specifically by the Cauldron, but with the Cauldron's powers when they are near each other. Truth Teller glows with Dark light in response to guidance. White Light Guideian is also known as the Star Sword and was taken to Midgard. So these two twin weapons were separated by worlds, one in the Acotar world and the other other in Crescent City. Which is how Bryce ended up with the Star Sword. And then when she traveled to the Acotar world, she brought it with her and then she borrowed Slash Stole as his Truth Teller so she could keep these two weapons together. Because together. Well, hold on here. Because together they have the power to help defeat and overthrow the Daglan. AKA the Staring. You know what else?
- [36:37]
Nicole
Nesta? You know who killed a Dagon right in front of her. Nesta, it's fine.
- [36:41]
Lexi
Everyone please go listen to our CC3 reactions for the full rant. This first mention of AZ's emotional support dagger, which again is a joke from our CC3 review and rant it will end up helping destroy the Big Bad in Crescent City 3. I just love that like here we are in Mist and Fury and we get a little nugget that is going to play a huge role in the book that came out years later. And I just love how all this is starting to really tie in together. Anyway, there's so much more I could say on all of this, but we are going to put a pin in this Truth Teller and Guidian discussion for now and keep on moving. Now the mists. I love this stuff so much. When Farah arrives at the height to the prison, she mentions there's mist around her and around this area. We'll talk about the 8th court and the prison a lot next episode. But Mist.
- [37:32]
Nicole
Hello.
- [37:33]
Lexi
Leyline's hint from Chapter 60 of Crafty Crescent City 3, when Aidas, Prince of the Fifth Level of Hell, is talking about Avalon. The mists are a result of the ley line's power. They're an indication of a thin place. Thin places are where it is easier to world walk and create portals. Which makes sense that the 8th court where Theia, Selene and Helaena left the world to Midgard. Again, from Aidas. There are ley lines across the whole of the universe. The Asteri have long chosen worlds that are on the Leyline lines for that exact purpose. It made it easier to move between them, to colonize these planets. It will be this misty island where the prison is that Thea and Pelias gather, their people willing to conquer and colonize and open the door to Midgard.
- [38:21]
Nicole
Last one is from Throne of Glass, with a reference to Lorkhan being in Valeris. A perfectly done TikTok by a court of thorns. And Rosie. We'll put it in the show Notes posted this theory in chapter 43 of Empire of Storms. Quote. Lorcan had seen a kingdom, perhaps 300 years ago, that relied on barges to sail its good from one end to another. Its name eluded him, lost to the catacombs of his memory. Lorcan wondered if it still existed, tucked away between two mountain ranges on the other side of the world. What are the mountain ranges described as? In Valaris, there's two different mountain ranges and a river, and boats that I'm assuming are barges to sail. Lorcan could not remember this name because of the magic of valor Polaris. Now, both Acomaf and Empire of Storms came out in the same year, April and September of 2016. So she was working on Acomaf, and then probably right after that was Empire of Storms. Yes, it went Queen of Shadows. Acomaf. Empire of Storms. So it was most likely, you know, very heavily on her mind with Phalaris. And I love this idea of her, you know, just like, dropping a hint of like, oh, I just wrote about this city. Let's put that aside there. So my headcanon is. Yes, Lorcan was in Velaris, but he.
- [39:39]
Lexi
Would have had to somehow world walk in that way, though, because it wasn't just on the other side of their world. It's on the other side of a world.
- [39:48]
Nicole
Who was he serving? Maeve, you haven't finished the book, so.
- [39:53]
Lexi
No, I have not. So I don't know what that's like. I promised. Let's kick it off. With the surreal. Tea Time Part two About the prison. If you don't mind learning about some Acotar related lore that is told in House of Flame and Shadow, please continue. There are no plot spoilers here for House of Flame and Shadow, just lots of lore information as it specifically relates to the Acotar world. I know, it's confusing. The prison used to be a royal territory. Queen Thea claimed this island for herself after they defeated the Daglan. It is a naturally defensive location because the mists keep it veiled from the others. And. Hey. Hey. This was indeed the eighth court, the Dusk Court. We get that confirmation. But it was before the courts were divided up and ruled by the High Lords. The island had a soul that blossomed under Queen Theia's care, nurtured by the Dusk Court she built there. But then Theia and her people left to Midgard. And when Celene returned their home, the island, the Duskort, had been left empty. Since they vanished. The other Fae of Pyrithian thought it was cursed after the Dusk Fae left. So Selene made it truly cursed. She damned it all so only the dungeons remained. Far beneath the mountain. She started hunting the monsters, the remaining pets of the Daglan. Until her once beautiful home became a prison. Until even the lands were disgusted by the evil she'd gathered. That the islands shriveled and the earth became barren. I have to wonder if she personally put Amren in the prison. Although the timeline, it doesn't quite line up because Amren entered the prison prison before High King Theon and his Queen Theia ruled. And the prison didn't actually exist until after he was long gone. But we're just going to keep moving past that here. Selene went on to wed the heir to the High Lord of the Night Court. And once he inherited the title and they had their first son, she brought him to the prison and keyed the wards into his blood. She told him the secret of the records she left for him, so that he would know about the buried weapon kneeled against the dagger that was located beneath the prison. That secret weapon is indeed the harp. But the secret was supposed to be passed down in the generations of the High Lords of the Night Court. But hey, it didn't happen. And somehow along the way, this information got lost and forgotten. This here is the reason Rhys's family has the blood key to the prison. It's because they are ancestors of Selene, who specifically made their blood the key to the prison where the secret information would be held. Secret. I'm not entirely sure how Mora's family ruling the Night Court ties into this timeline, since she does not possess the same attributes or appearance as Selene and Rhys. But they are related. So another thing we're not going to touch on here right now. And that, my friends, is the full story about the prison.
- [42:37]
Nicole
Yay, Lexi.
- [42:39]
Lexi
Okay, that concludes part two of today's Surreal Topic. The next part of this mass verse madness is still House of Flame and Shadow Shadow. But there is going to be a plot spoiler in the mix of this. So I'm saying all of this to be super, super safe. Okay, I'm now diving in. The Bone Carver mentions that the Cauldron fell into the wrong hands and great and horrible things were done with it. Things were forged with it. Wicked things. And the Cauldron was stolen back at great cost. We already talked about how the Dread Trove, Guidian, Narbonne and Truth Teller were forged from it. But let's discuss those wrong hands it fell into in Selene's big download in House of Flame and Shadow. She says that upon arriving to their world, the Daglan, AKA the Asteri, captured it and used their powers to warp it. They turned it from what had been into something even deadlier. It was no longer just a tool of creation. Remember, the Cauldron created this world, but also of destruction. The Daglan, AKA the Ascendant Mysteri. They produced the Dread Troves with the Cauldron. And somehow Fion and Thea had made these weapons. And that is why these weapons answered to their power. It does differ from Acotar's version, in which the High Priestess dipped the sword into the Cauldron and gave it to Fion. I'm sorry everyone, I. I don't know exactly who made it. It's a little bit unclear. Anyway, the Fae fought the Daglin, aka the Asteri, using the Asteris own weapons. And they 1. And these are going to be the same weapons that Bryce will use to defeat the Asteri once and for all.
- [44:13]
Nicole
Someone sent us a DM the other day. Being like, I feel like you guys are Gonna have a PhD in mass verse by the end of these books. And you know what? I agree.
- [44:22]
Lexi
So funny because like, we're really learning as we go. We did not have all this information beforehand. Like we knew kind of like the general ties and then we just. I'll say nowhere to look and we still don't get all of it, but man, it is a PhD. It really is.
- [44:35]
Nicole
Let's Just put it this way, thank God for the ebook function Search oh my gosh.
- [44:40]
Lexi
Yes.
- [44:41]
Nicole
Truly. All right, now let's move into our Throne of Glass discussion, which is just gonna be a blanket for the whole Throne of Glass series mass verse crossovers.
- [44:50]
Lexi
So who is the Weaver? There is a theory outlined by the random Phantom Gal that the Weaver is the three faced Goddess that is in both Crescent City and Throne of of Glass. A few supporting points include the three faced Goddess is Mother, Maiden and Crone, which does kind of describe the Weaver with her young supple body, voice sweet and beautiful and skin that's wrinkled and sagging and dry. The three faced Goddess also had a loom, which duh, the Weaver does too. The ancient Fae actually did think that the Weaver was a God and they worshiped her, so there's that literal sense as well. When the Bone Carver talks about himself and his siblings, including the Weaver, he draws three overlapping interlocked circles. This is the same symbol as the eye of Elena, a witch symbol of the three faced Goddess. Which by the way, if she's not the three faced goddess, she could be a witch as well.
- [45:45]
Nicole
Well, on that same note, there is another theory that the Weaver is Vog, but it also would work if the Weaver was a witch, considering Manon is also part vog and along with the other witches, when Feyre throws the chimney brick down on the Weaver, black blood sprays. Alarm alarm alarm. Moment. Book nerd Brie made a comment on a Reddit post that we know the Weaver like her sibs are the Gods of death and Maeve is also a descendant from a God. Could Maeve be a very long distance from the Weaver? Possibly. I don't want to think about what that means for AEN and Rowan though, because Maeve, Mab, Aen's ancestor on her mom's side, and Mora, Rowan's ancestor, were all three sisters. Or heck, completely separate. The Weaver could just be one of the OG Valk. The Volk hail from an unnamed home dimension. Some people think that this might be from Hell in cc, but Black Blood is really sus, especially given the fact that SJM was working on Mist and Fury in between Queen of Shadows and Empire of Storms, which are serious, seriously packed with a whole bunch of Vogue shit going down. I'm leaning more towards this rather than the Weaver being related to Maeve just because of what that means for Mav and Mora. But I love the idea of the Weaver being one of the OG Vog. Now would this mean that the Bone Carver and Coast J are Also Vog. Possibly, probably. But also if Maeve is Vog and Mav and Morrow weren't, it doesn't necessarily mean that because one sibling is Vog, the others are too, just depending on what magic you do. We're not going down that rabbit hole. That's way too much lore. We've already done enough. But I love this idea about the Weaver being one of the Og Vog. I love this idea about the three faced Goddess. Could it be one in the same?
- [47:33]
Lexi
Yes, absolutely love that. Yep, it could be. While we're talking about who's who, there is speculation that the bone carver is the God of Truth based on the Throne of Glass World. Or at least they are symbolically parallel. Parallel. Maureen's wife on Tumblr outlines the similarities among them are In Queen of Shadow, Aedion reflects that the God of Truth seemed more like a sin eater and people were supposed to write their horrible sins on the bones of other sinners. It's not unlike the way the bone carver collects bones and carves people's deaths in them. This God of Truth from Queen of Shadow is the figure that the Temple of Bone is dedicated to, where people come to confess their awful truths upon the bones of other sinners. Well, Feyre comes and confesses some of her painful truths to the bone carver. So very cool similarities. I don't think that he specifically is that same God of Truth, but I love again that symbolism between the two.
- [48:29]
Nicole
Well, and again the timelines. She was working on Queen of Shadows and then immediately went into Mist and Fury if not working on them a little overlapped while she was doing edits for Queen of of Shadows. This is why she's a brilliant woman. Like how do you keep all of this shit in your head? Does she just have a major wall or her Bible for the mass verse must just be insane.
- [48:51]
Lexi
Talk about needing the E search functionality.
- [48:55]
Nicole
What I wouldn't give to get my hands on that. Do you know how much easier these outlines would be if we had our hands on that Bible? Oh my God.
- [49:03]
Lexi
Well, we're going to put a pin in all of that right now. Again, remember friends, friends, we are only on episode four of acomaf. We have a whole lot more to go and we are just starting to scrape the surface of all the mass verse madness stuff today is featuring the entire mass verse. So spoilers for all of Throne of Glass and Crescent City books.
- [49:21]
Nicole
Let us dive into our second popular theory around more is more a witch. OK scientist69nice posted on Reddit. There are a number of similarities between Mor and the way that the witches of the Tog series are described. Red in Throne of Glass is associated with that of the Kraken witches. Red, as we discussed earlier, is a color that Mor wears regularly. Moore's power also manifested at her first period, similar to our witches Quality Garbage X these are perfect names. I love it.
- [49:56]
Lexi
The Reddit usernames are my favorite.
- [49:59]
Nicole
It's quality humor. Commented on the same Reddit post about how in mythology the Morgan is often considered a triple goddess. Who do the witches in the Tog universe worship? The three faced goddess. Most witches also cannot wield magic. That is until they do the yielding. Maybe this is why we haven't seen Morris Powers on full display outside of like healing and winnowing. However, I will say the Kraken witches are the exception. More on this in a moment. Guava Fox on the same Reddit post also commented that more was also marked on her belly just as Asturin was, which is a sad comparison. And last but on this Reddit article, see Girl pulled the quote More is who I call in when the armies fail and Cassian and Azriel are both dead. Could this be because she is capable of the yielding which we see to devastating lengths in Kingdom of Ash? I will not say more because Lexi has not read that book yet.
- [50:54]
Lexi
I still need to read this damn book.
- [50:56]
Nicole
I need you to read it quite fully talk about it because that is something I will not, I will not spoil for you. I refuse. Still on this subject though, I want to move back to the Kraken witches connection because for this I had to call in reinforcements. And I mean literally call. So thank you Lauren from Book huddle who spent 30 minutes on the phone with me and then another two days sending articles back and forth to pull this together legitimately. Most of these are her findings. She's a genius. We love Lauren on this podcast. 500 years ago when the Witch wars happened, the Kraken witches were thus scattered across the continent and they search for the one Kraken witch who could reverse the curse placed on the witch kingdom. The curse was placed on the Witch kingdom by the last Kraken Queen 500 years ago. This 500 year timeline really stood out. What if Mor's mother was the Kraken queen Rhiannon? Kraken the first Rhiannon. The name translates to Divine Queen Morgan. The name translates to Family Phantom Queen in a Court of Frost and Starlight. When Moore is greeted by Kier, she thinks quote the sneering tone she could still hear the hissed insults behind it. Whispered long ago in her family's private suite. Whispered at every meeting and gathering when her cousin was not present. Her cousin meaning Rhys. Half breed monstrosity, A disgrace to the bloodline. We of course assume that they're talking about Rhys. Yes, but could they also be talking about Mor as a half breed monstrosity of a witch and a High Fae? At the end of this book, the Kingdom of Hybern says to Mor what a mighty queen you are. And Mor slowly backs away at these words that could tie back into her power and her name, literally meaning Phantom Queen. Or it could tie into her blood lineage through the Kraken line if her mother was the last Kraken queen. Other notes on the Kraken they are known to be peaceful and beautiful, taking much more after their Fae ancestors rather than their Volg because they take after their Fae ancestors. This also means that they are able to use more magic. For example Rion and Kraken. Kraken II who Manon kills. She inherited magical abilities unique to the Krakens, one of which being able to glamour. But what if other magical abilities unique to the Krakens include truth? Rhiannon Kraken, the first in the Witch Mirror flashback is described as looking just like Manon, of course tying us into what happens to Manon in Kingdom of Ash. But she Rhiannon Kraken I has a crown of superior stars in this flashback, a symbol we highly associate with the Night Court. This is only part one of this crack theory and will be continued when we get to the Veritas Orb because Lauren sent me something that quite literally blew my mind. I will tell you off air Lex and here are my personal thoughts on this theory. I love this. I think it would be a really powerful way of tying the Tog world and the Acotar world especially. There might be some things that we find especially as we go through Acowar and stuff like that, and especially for a character like Mor who is more mysterious. And I think that it would be just so cool if it ties those two worlds together.
- [53:58]
Lexi
So now a few more quick Throne of Glass and Crescent City three things. Feyre notes how Valeris is misty now. You might be like, well that's just the weather. How hold on. We've discussed the mist around the prison, but the mist and Velaris is very important given that it's one of the first things Bryce notices when she arrives. And we have to wonder why does Bryce arrive in Velaris in the first place instead of one of the other nearby thin places like the prison. We learn in CC3 that mist equals thin places that are easier to travel to. So while we have never gotten a direct comparison about Velaris being a thin place, this is something to really and truly be on the lookout for because there are a lot of little pieces that are falling into place here.
- [54:39]
Nicole
In Rhys's darkness is what you make of it speech, he says that there is the darkness of assassins. I love this subtle nod to Celaena Sardothian and her morally grace nature as a protagonist. As our crew frequents Rita's, you also cannot help but think of Azriel loving most of Bryce's music. From the bonus chapter of CC3, Azriel is described as being on board with the, quote, pulsing thumping of club music. He's asking her again to play the, quote, pleasure hall music. It does make me wonder what kind of music they play at Rita's, because if the pulsing club music that Bryce shows him is something he's like, oh, ooh, this is fun and interesting. But like, what do they play at Rita's?
- [55:20]
Lexi
The piano version of the Unsu. Unsu. I don't know.
- [55:25]
Nicole
It's the violin version of Get Low actually. Friends.
- [55:29]
Lexi
All right, friends, we need to stop this right now. We are getting delirious.
- [55:33]
Nicole
Today we are discussing Crescent City and Throne of Glass lore.
- [55:38]
Lexi
So if you've only read Acotar before you leave, next episode we will be covering chapters three, 38 through 43. And of course, if you want more fantasy fangirls, please do join the Patreon party. It is so helpful. You can also follow us on Instagram and Tik tok at Fantasy Fangirls Pod.
- [55:55]
Nicole
Side note, yes, next episode is the throne scene and I'm so excited I cannot wait. You can also rate and review the podcast. This is one of the best things that you can do for any and all podcasts that you listen to. And it takes two seconds. And the most important thing, the cream of the crop. If you will, please share this episode with your fellow Acotar and ACOMAF friends.
- [56:19]
Lexi
All right, we are now entering our mass first Madness segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today includes spoilers for both series Crescent City and Throne of Glass. So if you have not finished those series, we will see you next week.
- [56:36]
Nicole
Lead being the tomb of the Asteri we mentioned earlier this quote lead to keep the full force in to preserve it. They used to line the sarcophagi of the great rulers with it because they thought one day they'd awaken immediately. If you're like me, you thought of the Asteri who Bryce found in Crescent City at the bottom of the prison in Prythian. But alas, that tomb, I guess, is a good word for it was not made of lead. It was instead made of crystal. So I don't know if Amren's talking about a great ruler, a different great ruler like Lexi mentioned earlier, or if this is just a forgotten lore point in the mask verse, which, honestly, either is possible.
- [57:12]
Lexi
I. That was exact. I was like, oh, my gosh. I bet it was the hysterian. I bet she was in a lead tomb. And then I went down to the mass verse madness and was like, nope, you already looked up and it was crystal. And I was like, oh, right. I was like, I thought it was going to be a different answer.
- [57:24]
Nicole
It's going to be the same thing, but it'll glass. Nope, it was crystal.
- [57:27]
Lexi
Here's just a tiny one. In one of the summer court troves, Feyre sees dresses woven of cobwebs and starlight leaned against one another. These dresses of cobwebs immediately made me think of spider silk in the tog universe. I have no idea if that's right, but that's what it made me think of.
- [57:42]
Nicole
I was thinking the exact same thing. And that was my moment of, oh, my God, I bet this is the spider silk. And I went down to the master's madness. And you had already put that in there, so I love it.
- [57:50]
Lexi
So same thing.
- [57:51]
Nicole
We're.
- [57:51]
Lexi
We both literally wore Hawaiian shirts today without talking to each other about it.
- [57:57]
Nicole
I love it. Last but not least, the whirls on the door into the temple, on both of the doors into the chamber for the Book of Breathings, there are carved whirls along the door. Feyre activates both of the doors using her Tarquin fingerprint magic. But after the doors close and all hell breaks loose, Amren is the one who heats the metal and, quote, swirls and whirls radiating out through it as if they were a language all her own. So are these word marks. However, we also get another mystery language in this episode with the Book of Breathings that I was under the impression were word marks. However, we know these two symbolic languages are not the same, because when Amren sees the symbols on the door, she's, like, unfazed, not surprised. But when she sees the language in the Book of Breathings, she goes holy still. At the Lashan Hakodesh, AKA the Holy Tongue. This is also the same language that is tattooed on Bryce's back with Through Love all is possible, which many people believed were wordmarks. However, none of that is confirmed canon. So which of these. The door and the Book of Breathings. Which of these are word marks? If either of them even are to answer this. I went to our Mass Verse Madness master list channel on our Discord. Yes, it exists and it's probably one of my favorite channels on there. So huge shout out to the hive mind of people who helped me with this. I love you all. Thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you. Here is what we know. Amren said the Lashan Hakodesh is no language of this world. The Daglan Asteri created this language, which we learned from rigelis in chapter 96 of A House of Flame and Shadow. This was created from their home world. So Amren says that it's not of the Prythian world, and Rigelus says it's of their home world. So we can assume that this is the Tog world of Aurelia, which is the Asteris home world world, which I thought it is. I thought it was Prythian. So I was like, wait, what?
- [59:49]
Lexi
That's only if I didn't think it was Prythian either. I thought they had a whole other world of their own and then they went and infiltrated these other two Fate worlds.
- [59:56]
Nicole
So it could be. It's not confirmed that it's from Aurelia. I assumed that because we're working with three different worlds here. If it's not from the first two, then it would be from the third one, but it could be from a totally different one. Maybe the main point of Twilight of the Gods. We have no idea. We also know from the Under King in CC3 that when Ithan is talking to him about the shifter world which his line of Fae hailed from, quote, this is. Oh my God, this gave me chills. Quote, the cauldron of life brimming with the language of creation. Erd, they call her here, the bastardization version of her true name. Word we called her in that old world. So word equals erd equals cauldron slash. The Mother, which I didn't know until.
- [60:40]
Lexi
This episode of the Deep Dive, which.
- [60:42]
Nicole
I'm a little ashamed to say because that's like a huge mass verse moment. So these are obviously two different languages, like I mentioned earlier. And if the Mother Eard word created word marks, which based on the name alone, word marks from word, that makes sense. Which would mean that the Book of Breathings is not in wordmarks because the Daglan Asteri created the language that the Book of Breathings is written in. So because of that, I'm inclined to think that the swirls and whirls on the doors that Amren activates with Heat Press magic, basically, that is wordmarks in here. In our Acotar world. Also, they're described as swirls and whirls, which is how Celaena describes them in the first talk book. But while we're on this whole Book of Breathing situation, and I hope you're still with me, this is not the only series that the Book of Breathings is mentioned in. In Crescent City one, right before Micah does his big old evil villain monologue and then gets vacuumed up by Bryce. Amazing. Bryce's inner monologue says, quote Micah loomed over her. She stretched her arm out towards the shelf. Her tingling fingers brushed over the titles on the divine number. The Walking Dead, the Book of Breathings, the Queen of Many Faces. How did the Book of Breathings end up in Jesiba's library in Crescent City one? We will discuss that at a later date because, yes, we have some theories. But also, side note, yes, the Walking Dead is from Throne of Glass, also in Jesiba's library.
- [62:09]
Lexi
Wow. All right, we are now entering our Mass First Madness segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references or discuss theories. It's like Nicole said, a short one for today with spoilers for the Throne of Glass series.
- [62:24]
Nicole
It is time to extend my is more a witch theory. In case you missed it, I, along with our friend Lauren from Book Huddle, went down a rabbit hole around the possibility of Mor being a witch from Tog. Specifically a Kraken witch from Tog. If you want to listen to the entire deep dive of the theory, we have it in episode five's Mass verse Madness section. But it is time to extend that theory with the Veritas orb. This is full credit to Lauren because she's incredible and she caught this and she texted it to me and I My mouth just dropped open. Morse says, quote, this is the Veritas, the gift of my first ancestor to our bloodline. This line, the gift of my first ancestor to our bloodline implies that the ancestor is different from their current bloodline. Could this be a gift from a Kraken witch bloodline like we mentioned in episode five? So the foundation of this Veritas orb is. Could this be a witch mirror? Witch mirrors have immense power in the Throne of Glass world and have various uses depending on the mirror in question. Some can see the future, some can see the past, some can see the present. But all witch mirrors are made out of a rare silver, the Veritas Orb, also made out of silver. So was Morse family gifted the Veritas Orb from her possible witch bloodline? Maybe. The more and more I look into it I'm like please God let this be true. I love this theory so much because I think it would clear up so much of the question marks around more. But that's it. Short and sweet friends, we're done. Let's get to them finding out their mates. I'm so excited.
- [64:00]
Lexi
We are going to call out series crossover references and discuss theories here in the Maspers Madness segment. It's a fairly short one for today with spoilers from the entire Throne of Glass and Crescent City series.
- [64:13]
Nicole
We have to discuss Starfall and why it disturbs Amren. On a Reddit post by yanni77 future under future underscore, Kotara mentioned an idea we know that in Kingdom of Ash, Aen leaps through the word gate and starts falling between worlds. One of the worlds she falls through is Valeris on Starfall as if she was a star quote I'm quoting the whole damn thing because it like gave me chills. I screamed in the car when I was reading this quote. She passed through the world of snow capped mountains under shining stars. Passed over one of those mountains where a winged male stood beside a heavily pregnant female gazing at those very stars. In the scene, Aen flings her hand out in a plea to help slow her down because she's like zooming by all of these worlds and Rhys snaps his head up to look at her and blasts night slowing power in her direction. Also, fun note. As Aelin is falling, she also sees Lunatheon. Quote she passed through a world where a great city had been built along the curve of a river, the buildings impossibly tall and glimmering with lights. SJM has confirmed that is Lunatheon. So back to Amren. What if Amren fell through worlds just like Aelin had, likely with the same lack of control and that's why it disturbs her? That could very well be the thing. However, Amren is at Starfall in a court of frost and starlight, which is a starfall that Aelin falls through Because Feyre is pregnant. We can assume that that's the one. Unless Feyre has another pregnancy, so we don't know. But why this date specific? Is this a time manipulation thing? Like people are falling through the worlds all the time but it always just happens. Happens to be on Starfall in Prythian. I don't really know how that would work. I don't know how to even explain it into a microphone without confusing myself. Also, why did Aelin appear on Starfall falling through a gate but Bryce didn't when she fell through a gate when traveling to Prythian? I have no idea. I have 0.0% idea. But I do think that maybe one of the reasons Amren Distastes has distaste for Starfall is because she had a very similar experience to Aelin. While we're still on Tog, there is a Bloodbane parallel when Rhys is poisoned and the Suriel says to Feyre the poison was Bloodbane. That is the same poison that Caltain slips into Celaena's wine at the final fight against Cain in the first Throne of Glass book. This is also the drug she missed on her poison test.
- [66:39]
Lexi
That's a really fun fact.
- [66:40]
Nicole
There I was. Brett and I are listening to Tog right now because he's making his way through that series and we were in the final scene with Kane and it said Bloodbane. And I literally dropped everything and ran to my laptop and wrote this down. I was very excited.
- [66:55]
Lexi
When Feyre is experimenting with her powers and melding them to work together, she describes, quote, they had come from the same dark origin, the same eternal well of power. Once long ago, before language was invented and the world was new. This. This well, language immediately reminded me of the descriptions in the Tog world. With the deep power within oneself. It is frequently used as Aelin discovers just how deep her well of magic goes, understanding that these fae come from different worlds, but within the same universe. I love how there are those little ties into how magic as a whole does indeed work similarly.
- [67:31]
Nicole
And friends, that is it for today's episode.
- [67:36]
Lexi
All right, we are now officially entering our Mass Verse Madness segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today, we are discussing concepts that give spoilers from the last books in both Throne of Glass and Crescent City.
- [67:51]
Nicole
I have a quick one before I get into the one I have. I'm literally shaking to get to. I'm so excited. The first one is Mor in the cabin when she is joining Feyre in painting. She paints three stick figures on the wall that look, quote, just like her. The Morrigan in Celtic mythology represents three sisters, but here, more in the cabin, she's also painting, you know, three similar looking women on the wall who do the witches in Tog worship the Three faced goddess. So I do wonder if that is more of a witch parallel with Morgan or if it's more of a nod to Morgan in Celtic mythology and her roots there. But I like to think it's a witch nod because I'm so sold on that theory I can't even tell you. Now we need to talk about mating bonds. In the other Mass Verse series, we have learned all about mating bonds in the Prythian world. But what about the other two worlds? In Throne of Glass, when Aelin and Rowan I'll call it, solidify their mating bond, there is a moment where they bite each other's neck. And given that these Fae in Irelia are so much more primal, more animalistic than our Prythian Fae, it. It does make sense. In Kingdom of Ash, quote from Aelin's perspective, mate. The word still sounded like a surprise. What they had done in that forest pool had been accumulation of those months and an unleashing the mating marks on her neck and on Rowan's proved it. She would not be returning to Terison alone when autumn arrived. So we can assume that the mating bond snapping into place is more of like I should say is more emotional, just like it is with recent Feyre. But I'm assuming that the mating mark on their necks is more of the soup in the Prythian world. It's more symbolic of like I claim you. We also have in their Karenon bond scene, that could have also been where their bond snaps into place. They could tap into each other's powers, which we'll talk about more in a second. And in that scene in Heir of Fire, Rowan says, quote I claim you too. Ailing out Athenius. It's very much along that your mine language. So their mating bond might have actually snapped into place in Era Fire without either of them knowing. For obvious reasons, we as the reader don't learn until the end of Empire Storms. But in the end of Empire Storms, when Maeve is doing her huge download of you know, I made Rowan believe that this other woman was this mate, but it was actually you all along. Aen thinks how she's actually known since Rowan got hurt in Queen of Shadows and she goes absolutely feral. Very similar to how fellow Feyre acts when Rhys is hurt now. But again, it's not the mating bond snapping into place. It's when she realizes, oh my God. This man who's already had a mate is actually my mate. What the hell? And then obviously we learn everything at the end of Empire of Storms.
- [70:31]
Lexi
So now let's look at the Crescent City world and how mating bonds work there. It's a little bit like we're mates in in all seriousness though, it is not quite as primal or soul binding as the other two Mass worlds.
- [70:44]
Nicole
Now they do have their laying in bed. I don't know, maybe we're mates conversation while we're discussing mating bonds. In all of the mass verse on the boat, Bryce and Hunt consummating the mating bond is when it officially they don't use this language, but it's when it officially clicks. I'll say. Quote they filled with iridescent light, he filled with light. They both fill with light of the Starborn Fae. Which got me thinking. Actually not thinking. I legit gasped reading this part of the book. So much so that Brett was in the kitchen and I was at the counter and he turned around like he needed to fight a bear for me. Like he was so afraid that something happened. In chapter 55 of a court of Mist and Fury, Feyre glows, quote, warm white like. Like the sun. Like a star. And Rhys is a descendant of Theia, the Star Starborn Fae line. Could this glow technically be a gift from Rhys? The like a star language is so interesting here. From Celine's download in House of Flame and Shadow, she had a son with the High Lord of the Night Court, AKA her mate, and she bound that son to the Dusk Court Prison. Quote from Celine, no one knew that infant who sometimes glowed with starlight had inherited it from me and that it was the light of the Evening Star, the Dusk Star. When Feyre asks Rhys if her glow was from the Day Court, he says, quote I don't care now. It's not like I don't care. It's like I don't care. I'm so in love with you right now. That's not on my mind. He doesn't confirm it. So when Feyre says about Helion and Acowor, quote, his powers that made me glow whenever Rhys and I were tangled with each other and every heartbeat ached with mirth. This also just might be her assumption because later in chapter 55, Feyre thinks, quote I think the light pouring out of me might have been starlight. I think these are Rhys's powers. I don't think these are heliums.
- [72:38]
Lexi
I'm so excited as we are introduced to Helion because I honestly just can't remember if he does have that glowing possibility. I know that he does like emanate sunlight and all of that, but I'm going to be so curious about the language because I love. You're so right about that starlight language there and how she's glowing like a star and the starborn Fae and Yep, yep.
- [72:58]
Nicole
The thing that locked this into place for me is the Selene download. The no one knew the infant that sometimes glowed like a star with starlight. Literally. Feyre says the powers within me might have been starlife. Like it's the same word.
- [73:13]
Lexi
Today we've got spoilers for the entire mass verse, including all of Throne of Glass and Crescent City books.
- [73:20]
Nicole
I want to start with talking about the symphony music. So the music at the symphony that Cassian and Feyre go to had music that was strange end quote. Written at a time when humans had not even walked this earth. I could not help but think about the music that Celaena sings when she is looking up at the sky after Nehemiah's death and she sings in a ancient Fae language the songs that people of Terrasen used to sing. Only nobility of Teresin used to sing when someone died. I do not think it's the same song, I should note, but given the description from K's point of view, it's very similar. So I wonder if this music necessarily came from the Fae in the Tog world versus Prythian.
- [74:03]
Lexi
I like that.
- [74:04]
Nicole
I do too. This is really not a spoiler, this is more of a clarification. I didn't know this until I got the ebooks of Throne of Glass because I've always been listening to the audiobook books which are phenomenal. Elizabeth Evans, you're incredible. But several times in Throne of Glass it is mentioned quote mean as an attor. Atter is spelled a D D E r versus our A T T O R in Prythian. So Atter is not the Attor like the bat like creature in in our world an Atter a D D E R is actually a venomous type of snake. I did not know that until this week. So which brings up the question though. If an Attor in the Tog world is a version of the Ilkin, they're described really similar. However, Ilken do have black blood and are half human, half according to Lorcan, whatever Erewhon did to them. And the Adders in Prythian have silver blood and they are a type of Fae, so I think it is safe to say that they are two different things.
- [75:10]
Lexi
Let's go back to Amren's warning about putting the two halves of the Book of Breathings together and how that would draw enemies far older and more wretched things that have long been asleep and should remain so. I mentioned already that maybe she's talking of the Daglin, AKA the Asteri. And while they were overthrown in this world, we know that they did not all leave that at least under the prison for 15,000 years there has indeed, indeed been a sleeping Asteri encased in a crystal coffin. Vesperus in particular was trapped by Theia under the prison, but it's possible that she is not the only one still lurking underground in all of Prythian. Now she did say that they have pockets of power hidden beneath the sacred mountains in Prythian. That's not creatures or enemies, but there are definitely Asteri related mysteries under these mountains Lanes dormant All right, we are now officially entering our Mass Verse Madness segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today we are discussing concepts that give spoilers for all three Crescent City books, so please only continue listening if you've.
- [76:17]
Nicole
Read that series Feyre describes humans in this stretch as, quote, laced with earth and marrow and rot mortality. Tell us how you really feel, Feyre. You cannot help but but think about this as a little nudge to Earth and Blood, AKA one of the houses in Crescent City. And it's also the house that humans reside in. Not to mention, this is not the first mention of Earth and Blood when it comes to humans. From ACOTAR Book 1, when Feyre is back in the human realm, she describes the human servants as, quote, unfinished, graceless creatures. Jesus of Earth and Blood. There it is.
- [76:53]
Lexi
She was even a human back then too, jackass.
- [76:58]
Nicole
And then during the summer solstice. Here we go. Feyre does her little glowing trick and again, it's described as starlight. SJM is just fucking with me at this point, I swear to God. In case you do not know what I'm talking about. Back in our coverage of Acomaf, I mentioned how I do not think these glowy powers of Pharaohs are from the Day Court, or at least not entirely from the Date Court, but instead. Instead they are from Rhys, who is a starborn Fae descendant from the Selene Download in a house of flame and shadow. She had a son with the High Lord of the Night Court, which was her mate, and she bound her son to the Dusk Court prison. Quote, no one knew that infant who sometimes glowed with starlight had inherited it from me, that it was the light of the Evening Star, the Dusk Star. So she technically has powers from from all eight courts, we should say, because technically this is a Dusk Court power. Several Times In Acomaf chapter 55, Feyre thinks about her glowing quote. I think the light pouring out of me might have been Starlight. And here in this chapter stretch, we get another instance of her calling it Starlight. Super powerful, Starborn, curse breaker, favorite archeron. And then we have Nesta, who had the eight pointed star tattooed on her back from her bargain with Cassian, where it's like, who knows what she's about to go off to. But then her sister has the powers of the Descent. Like what, what if.
- [78:23]
Lexi
What if Feyre uses that power? Kind of like how people use it to. For Bryce to like, you know, charge her up. And Farah has that ability to do that for her sister. Wait, wait, wait. But Nesta doesn't have that tattoo anymore.
- [78:36]
Nicole
No, it went away when she and Cassian.
- [78:37]
Lexi
That's right. Oh man, I thought I was on to something there. So good today is spoilers for Crescent City. We can't bring up the Autumn Court in this episode without talking about the Autumn King from the Crescent City series. During Selene's mega download in House of Flame and Shadow, she explained how her mother wanted to open a portal from the Acotar world and conquer a new world to bring the Fae to new heights, new wealth and prestige. But most people in her court refused because they just defeated the Daglan, AKA the Asteri, and were like, we're good here. No more conquering. Except quote, there were enough Fae throughout her lands, along with some of the fire wielders from the south who supported the idea. In one of the holograph visuals, Bryce sees red haired Fae that look alarmingly like her father, the Autumn King, being greeted in Midgard by the Asteri. So from this we understand the Autumn Court Fae, or at least some of them, traveled through realms with Thea from. From the Dust Court to Midgard. So there is that obvious connection between the Autumn Court and the Autumn King's lineage. There are a lot of questions about who exactly the Autumn King is. Based on the timelines, I don't think it's possible for Baron to be the Autumn King, as some theorize. Bryce lives In a world 15,000 years in the future. So Beren being here alive right now, his ancestors, he would have had to travel there 15,000 years ago. So this, I really think it's more of just a subtle nod versus a crazy theory about the Autumn King being someone we know from this world. Just to continue a little bit further on that there is a theory that Eris is the Autumn King. However, Timelines aside the fact that the Autumn King tortures Ruhn just like Baron has done to Eris. I like to think that Eris is a better person than turning into his father when he's trying not to be in the series. The Autumn King is also obsessed with planets in the universe as he searches for patterns to lead him to finding and traveling to their Fae homeworld. This world in Acotar. So I just found that very interesting there. And that's all I got there for mass verse today.
- [80:44]
Nicole
I am curious how Bryce got the starborn Fae powers.
- [80:49]
Lexi
I started going down that rabbit hole and I pulled out because that's a whole other topic. There is actually a theory though that she did get it from Ember. And Ember is a distant lineage from Theia. Because the bone carver says that there is mortals who have that Fae lineage there. So instead of it being the Archerons like we've been assuming, it could actually be Ember in a different world.
- [81:15]
Nicole
Okay, I like. But then how would Ruhn also have the starborn Fae?
- [81:19]
Lexi
He would get it from his mother who is on the Avalon side. We do know that he did get it from his mother because their father specifically is not Starborn. So he would have had to get that from his mother. So that's where the question is where? How did. How did Bryce get it?
- [81:33]
Nicole
That's for a different day.
- [81:36]
Lexi
Today we are discussing concepts that give spoilers from Crescent City. So please only continue listening if you've read these three books.
- [81:44]
Nicole
We should also note that we are talking about a world building topic in Throne of Glass. So my first one is really actually more of a theory. I'm going to call it. When Amren says to Nesta quote When you erupt girl, make sure it is felt across worlds. I'm sorry, is that plural worlds? Do you think that this is foreshadowing? Like considering that we know that Nessa's story is not done. She had the eight pointed star on her back. Bryce is like go figure out what that means. Do you think that she's going to have a sacrifice of some sort to erupt? Do you think that this is a yielding of monumental destruction? Because especially if the Archerons do have have some witch blood in their veins, they could perform the yielding. Let's move on to the humans with magic download because. Wow wow wow. I'm getting more and more convinced that Feyre is starborn Fae descendant. Because what if she is somehow in Thea's descendant line? But she was half Fae, half like her ancestor was half Fae, half mortal. But that's how she has her starborn powers now. She also could have gotten them from Rhys. But now we have so much more insight on how the humans from Throne of Glass, but like humans can have magic and throwing a glass. So like we do know that there's now more of a connection between the humans in these two worlds. But then also like some of the humans in Midgard probably have magic, but the fucking parasite is just diminishing their magic. But Rhys says in this.
- [83:07]
Lexi
Well, the humans and Midgard were already there when all of the fae and stuff came over. So those humans could be like us humans.
- [83:16]
Nicole
Or they could be like Tog and Slash, or maybe the Acotar Humans and have magic, but they can't use it because of the parasite.
- [83:24]
Lexi
But the other worlds, those humans would have had to come over from those worlds. But the CC humans were already there.
- [83:32]
Nicole
But if some humans came over from Tog. We don't know about any that came over from Acotar. But if some humans came over from Tog, then they would have magic and maybe they bred with the other humans. So now there's just a bunch of diluted magic.
- [83:45]
Lexi
That's absolutely possible. But we do know that no humans came over from the Acotar world.
- [83:50]
Nicole
That is true. We do. That is accurate. Rhys says in this library download though, he says, quote, some of those spells don't require magic from the wielder, only the right words or use of ingredients not said here. Wordmarks, I believe.
- [84:03]
Lexi
Yeah, which is exactly how humans can use magic in the talk world.
- [84:06]
Nicole
Exactly.
- [84:07]
Lexi
And then last thing here again, we will get a lot more into this when we go through silver flames. But that fourth Dread Trove item that we were talking about, that has the age worn bone that Nesta can see from what Lanthus projects. It's the horn, folks. It's the horn that is currently in Midgard and that Danika had and then she essentially entrusted to to Bryce.
- [84:27]
Nicole
And she tattooed it on her back is what she did.
- [84:31]
Lexi
Yeah, the same thing. Entrusted it it to Bryce, you know, against her will.
- [84:34]
Nicole
Entrusted it to her.
- [84:36]
Lexi
Just sneaky, sneaky, sneaky. And then also we're just going to save our mass first library theories for another time. There is so much that we could talk about with the libraries. And I'm just going to be honest with you. We just came back from Leakycon. It has been quite the week for us. We kind of lost a day. And we will talk about that at a different time when I have more brain power. All Right. We are now officially, officially entering our Mass verse madness segment of the episode. Nicole's literally stretching as she prepares for this, honestly, where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today, we are rolling up our sleeves and talking about the entire mass verse, so please only continue listening if you've read all of Throne of Glass and the Crescent City series. All right, let's continue our discussion about the Old Gods. Are the Old Gods connected to the Daglan, who we know are the Asteri and maybe the Vaal? I know that's a little bit questionable there. The Daglin would drink magic like fine wine, like I mentioned earlier, and the Asteri require first light during the drop, so that would equate to them feeding off life forces like these death gods.
- [85:41]
Nicole
There's also the Asteri having the second light from people who are in the bone quarter and, like, move on, basically. So they have first light and second.
- [85:50]
Lexi
Light, and that could equate to them feeding off life forces in a similar fashion as these death Gods. There are also different levels of vulg, so I wonder if the Asteri are, I'll call it the most powerful vulg or an evolved version of the vulg, and the Old Gods are more like their minions, kind of like the lesser levels of the Vog there. I. I don't know if that makes any sense, but.
- [86:14]
Nicole
No, it does. It does. And I love the idea of them, the Asteria and the Daglan, being evolved versions of the vog, which we'll get into the supporting evidence for that in a second. But when you say, like, the Old Gods are almost like their minions, I imagine them, the Old Gods, being much more powerful than, like, a Vogue prince, for instance. Assuming that they are vog, or even vog adjacent, I will say this. It is very sus, because Kostj has a black box that is, like, super precious, like my precious to him. Is this some kind of vog black ring, black collar situation, but just in box fox form that he has potential.
- [86:54]
Lexi
Well, let's get into some of our supporting evidence about how the Old Gods are connected to the Daglin and the Asteri and possibly the Vog, Lanthus and the Weaver bleed black blood there.
- [87:05]
Nicole
There.
- [87:07]
Lexi
The Vulg and the Asteri have black blood too. Remember that the one Asteri who was killed in the prison, she bleeds black blood. So the fact that Lanthus and the Weaver also do, I feel like that means that it's a dead giveaway that they are all connected.
- [87:20]
Nicole
Which? Side note, I thought of this earlier and I couldn't say it. When Nesta kills Vesperus in the prison in Crescent City. 3. We mentioned earlier how Nesta is almost like a monalgamation of Gwydian. Like a Gwydian esque sword. Like the power of the Cauldron and the power of an old God. She puts her power into Ataraxia, which then kills Vesperus. So there is another instance of Nesta having the power of the Cauldron to be able to kill the Asteri, Daglan, Plat slash. Maybe Valg.
- [87:50]
Lexi
Yes, because she is almost like the bridge between the Cauldron and creating these weapons. Because she has that same Cauldron power essence that then she transmits into these made objects. Exactly. Another point again talking about Lanthus, is that he looks a lot like Erewhon when he was conjured in a human form. Not saying they're the same individual whatsoever, but I gotta love these similar appearances that they conform into.
- [88:16]
Nicole
We should note, not when he was Parrington, but when he's like Erewhon 2.0.
- [88:21]
Lexi
Yes, definitely blonde man. Exactly. Yes. And another point. The bone carver wants the Oroboros mirror. And that had belonged to his sister, the weaver. Maeve told Aelin that her kind had taught witches to use mirrors. So there's another possible connection. Connection?
- [88:39]
Nicole
Well, and I 100% believe that the Ouroboros is some kind of witch mirror from the Tog wiki. Quote, witch mirrors are mirrors with immense power that have various uses depending on the type of mirror in question. Sounds about right. Now there is that moment where the bone carver is like, my sister was once a queen. Could he be referring to a Vogue queen? Right.
- [89:04]
Lexi
Ah.
- [89:05]
Nicole
Now, would that be Maeve or someone else? Else? I don't. I don't.
- [89:08]
Lexi
I don't think it's the exact same characters. I. I think that as we talk about the multiverse, there aren't so many of the exact same characters as the same types of characters and such.
- [89:18]
Nicole
Agreed.
- [89:19]
Lexi
Let's continue another discussion about who the ancient Fae female warrior is. The bone carver describes her as, quote, clever, that Fae warrior. Her bloodline is long gone now, though a trace still runs through some human line. No one remembers her name, but I do. She would have been my salvation had I not made my choice long before she walked this earth. So we already speculated in today's Acotar coverage who this warrior was. But I'm going to build on it being Thea. Who is Fion's Queen. Her name is never said in Acotar. So here we are saying it here it's Thea. She was one of the High Fae who defeated the Daglin. Now I will say part of the Bone Carver's Destroyer description doesn't fit for her because he says no one remembers her. And her bloodline definitely continues through the High Lord of the Night Court.
- [90:06]
Nicole
I do wonder if he's referring to how the bloodline maybe at one point split and he's referring to the split half of the bloodline that went to the human side. So if at one point it did split and go to the human side. I do have something to build off of that though is because in Selene's download she mentions they a quote, being blessed by the gods themselves. If I texted this to you and I was like, holy shit, like I freaked out. If the bloodline is like, let's say for instance through the Archerons, this would be a huge clue to their power boosters. That I'll say. But also this means that Rhys, as a descendant of Theia who was blessed by the gods themselves, would also, you know, explain why he is super powerful. I'm just saying. Coincidence. I don't think so. Yes, I do think that with this meaning, all of them stem from there. That does mean that Rhys and Feyre are distantly related. If Rowan and Aelin can do it, so can fucking Rhys and Feyre. I like it's distant enough. It's fine.
- [91:05]
Lexi
Well, and according to the timeline we have, it couldn't be Celine either. Although she was the one who rounded up the Daglan's pets and trapped them in the prison. Technically, Amren went to the prison before it was actually a prison, since she went in before hiking Fion's reign, when the Dust Court flourished, which is what the prison used to be. And we know that the bone carver went into the prison before Amren. So technically the bone carver and Amren were in the prison, not yet a prison before Fion was defeated, before Thea took her people to Midgard, and before Selene came back to a Perthian with high lords. And she proceeded to trap the monsters and create the prison.
- [91:43]
Nicole
We need a timeline. A visual timeline. I've. I feel like this is crazy.
- [91:48]
Lexi
Well, well, that's what I'm saying is that there are inconsistencies in the timeline. Like I would love to create one, but I think I would actually go crazy because there are these inconsistencies here. Anyway, there's also speculation that this ancient Fae female Warrior was Aelin, which I love this theory.
- [92:07]
Nicole
However, I don't think they're talking about Aen because they mentioned how she was on this world. So I definitely do think they're talking about Thea. Now he is saying that the ancient female warriors bloodline is running through a human line. While not technically human, he could be referring to Lydia in Midgard. And Aelin's bloodline is running through her, but she's technically a shifter. So I don't know if that might be a bit of a stretch. Another Crescent City option for this human bloodline though is actually if this is not the Archeron. This is. This is my number two theory. If the human.
- [92:44]
Lexi
Yeah, I do think that it is Archeron, and I don't think it is somebody that we actually know. But come on, we got a theory.
- [92:50]
Nicole
Oh, you don't think it's someone we actually. I think it's. I think it's Thea. And then the. And then the Archerons.
- [92:55]
Lexi
Oh, but how nobody remembers her bloodline. That's.
- [93:00]
Nicole
He said how nobody remembers her bloodline, but I do.
- [93:03]
Lexi
Correct, correct. And Thea's bloodline goes through the High.
- [93:07]
Nicole
Lords, but I think he's referring to the split bloodline where it splits into the humans.
- [93:14]
Lexi
Okay, that's actually a really good point.
- [93:16]
Nicole
Now here's just to throw a new wrench in it, like taking the Archerons completely off the board. Could he be referring to Bryce's mother's human bloodline? The Quinlan bloodline? Since we know that Ruhn got his starborn Fae ness from his mother, not the Autumn King. That would have to mean that Bryce got starborn powers through Ember. If Thea is indeed this Fae warrior, that would mean that the Quinlan bloodline could be the distant Fae, you know, running through it. Yes. Or hell, it could be both. Which means that it would be Feyre, Archeron, Elaine, Nesta and Bryce all being distantly related to the starborn Fae bloodline.
- [94:00]
Lexi
Which would make total sense because of the eight pointed star. Oh my God. I have choice. I think we just figured it out.
- [94:05]
Nicole
Like.
- [94:05]
Lexi
Okay, that's canon to me now.
- [94:06]
Nicole
Yep. Yep. All right, let's go into the bone carver. Because there is many a theory wondering if he is not Nyx, who this bone carver could possibly be with the crushing blue eyes and the raven black hair. And there are people wondering if this could be Ruhn or Dorian. I'm going to talk about Run because that seems to be the more popular one. Especially since Bryce mentions in at the end of Crescent City 2 how when Rhys walks in, she's like, oh my God, it's Ruhn. And then she realizes it's not Ruhn. I love this idea. I think it would be so cool if we've actually been seeing Ruhn this entire time. However, Feyre sees her own mouth or her father's mouth in the boy. So unless there's like, oh, wild plot twist where Feyre is like, you know, where time is being warped and ruin is actually Feyre and Rhys's son, I think we can confidently say that it is not ruin. Please do not make it ruin. That would hurt my head so badly. I love it. I love the idea. But if Feyre and Rhys are actually Ruhn's parents, that would be wild considering rune's like 84. Anyway, so if we're looking at the bone carver as a whole, I want to back up a little bit because Sarah Kane reads has an incredible video on TikTok and we'll link it in the show notes this theory was brought about because the bone carver has some different motives than his two out for blood siblings. In Sarah's video, she notes how with each interaction with him, our crew has to offer up a bone and then they get to ask him all the questions they want. Except for sometimes. But there is one rule. Never lie to the bone carver. In each interaction, they will share basically a truth for a truth. Unless you're Feyre and reason acomaf and you're still owed two more truths. It's fine. I'm clearly over it. What if the bone carver is actually a God of truth, AKA the Sin Eater from Throne of Glass, As Sarah Kane reads points out on TikTok in Queen of Shadows, the Sin Eater's temple is filled with bones of confessions written on them. We know that the Sin Eater was a godlike being. So is this the bone carver or are they similar in some way? Again, not saying that they're the same person, but they're almost adjacent titles. But Sarah adds to this theory because the bone carver explains that his home world is no more than dust drifting across a plane. Then he draws three interlocking circles in the dirt. And if you're like, huh, that sounds familiar, it's because. Because it is the same design as the Arkesian amulet that Bryce gets from Jesiba. So in House of Sky and Breath, Apollyon, AKA the Prince of the Pit, takes Bryce in a dream to a quote, vast dusty plain. Which is exactly how the bone carver describes his home world. But Apollyon takes her to not what he calls the Homeworld. He calls it Parthos. Or at least what remains remains of Parthos. Which, yes, that is where Jesiba took all of the books from before it fell. Which in Parthos, the Arkesian Amulets. Those three interlocking circles are what the priestesses wore. It is described exactly the same as how the bone carver draws on the floor. So is the bone carver's homeworld Parthos. Now, I do want to point out that if this ancient fey warriors blow bloodline is indeed the Quinlan bloodline. The bone carver is literally drawing Bryce's necklace as he talks about this Fae warrior's bloodline running through humans. So this could be a massive hint towards it being Bryce.
- [97:39]
Lexi
Wow. I can't keep all this stuff straight.
- [97:43]
Nicole
Wow. I tell you, I had 16 books opened up on my laptop last night. This is why now we do know for a fact fact that this is not the same thing as the Eye of Elena. There's very similar descriptions, but it is different because the Eye of Elena is described as two circles within a bigger circle, whereas these are three intertwined, separate circles. Almost like a three circle version of the Olympic sign.
- [98:08]
Lexi
And yes, and it's the Eye of Elena symbol. The one of two circles within a larger circle. That is a same as Manon and their witch symbols. So they are very slightly different.
- [98:21]
Nicole
Okay, yep. So maybe like these three circles, like this Arkesian amulet symbol is like an evolved version of the Eye of Elena. Possibly, if Tog is in a past timeline. But we're not touching that right now because we have way too much. Let's talk about Thanatos, because. Oh my God. I have been waiting to talk about this since we started. Acotar as a Kir is leaving the council chamber. He says, quote, lord Thanatos is having difficulties with his daughter. Again, he requires my assistance and then he leaves. I'm screaming because I was on TikTok one day and I saw a video by Shannon Taylor. Yes, we will link it in the show notes because Thanatos probably sounds mighty familiar since he is the Prince of the ravine, AKA one of the princes of Hell in Crescent City. He also, in Greek mythology, is known as the personification of death and is the son of Nyx, the goddess of night. But who is his daughter, you ask? Her name is Enris. Okay, things are looking fine so far, but until you look up. What does Endrys mean? Are you ready for this? Sexy?
- [99:28]
Lexi
I'm ready.
- [99:29]
Nicole
Enris means fury. Fury. We know from House of Sky and Breath that Danika used her bloodhound tracing powers on Fury to learn what Fury's lineage wedge and it was big hush, hush. They like, had a secret on each other. Yeah. Is Fury the daughter of the Prince of the fourth level of Hell? And Sarah J. Maas just happened to drop it in a different series for reference. Acowar came out in May 2017 and CC1 came out in March 2020. But she started writing CC1 in 2018, so it would have been very close. I am convinced that Fury is the Prince of the Vervine's daughter.
- [100:18]
Lexi
Now, to be clear, though, when they're talking about this lord in the Court of Nightmares, it is not or it is that same Prince of Hel.
- [100:28]
Nicole
It is Lord Thanatos, which is the same prince name as the Prince of the Ravine in It's Thanatos in Crescent City. It is the exact same name.
- [100:38]
Lexi
But are you saying that it's the exact same person or it's a hint to it?
- [100:43]
Nicole
If they have the same name, I would have to say same person. Now, how does Kier have access to the fourth level of Hell? I don't know, but maybe it's crazy. Now this also would mean if Thanatos is indeed Fury's father, that means that Thanatos had. Had is kind of a stretch, but created. I'll say both Fury and Hunt, which means there could be Hunt's father. Oh, man, this is brilliant. If this is actually accurate, Like, I'm stunned. All right, I have one more Mass versus Madness thing because in the scene with the bone carver, he mentions multiple times wind and its connections to Nesta. He says, quote, how the wind moans her name and quote, I can smell the wind on you talking to Cassian. Could this be a witch clue for the Archeron family? I know we spent a whole long time going through how they're Fae descendants and the descendant of the Fae Warrior and yada yada. So we're just gonna again put that off to the side for a moment and wonder if this is actually a clue for the Mama Archeron being connected to witches. Because in Throne of Glass, witches are often called to the wind. There are so many mentions of Tog witches and wind. So could this be a hint? Especially since Nesta several times jokes about being a witch with the Illyrians and that scares the shit out of them. The more and more we do these kinds of theories, the more I think SJM actually might have put like multiple Easter eggs in and then she could just decide later which bloodline line she wants to go down. But I Mean, it could be both. Maybe the fae line is actually through Papa Archeron, and again, that's how he has access to Adrianna and Valaris. And then maybe the witch bloodline is actually through Marma Archeron. I don't know, but it made my head go scratch.
- [102:35]
Lexi
Today we are discussing spoilers from both the Throne of Glass and Crescent City series, so please only continue listening if you've read both series. Series.
- [102:44]
Nicole
I want to start with Draken's people, the Seraphim, because they are basically angels, which what we know from the Malachim angels in Crescent City, they were created by the Asteri. Were the Seraphim then created by the Daglin? Now that doesn't make them bad because not all the angels in Crescent City are bad. But in Crescent City, some of the angels powers, including Micah's, they include wind, which wind and air are the Seraphim's powers.
- [103:11]
Lexi
We do know that the Illyrians were bred by the Dag Daglin, so I bet that they were.
- [103:17]
Nicole
I think you're right. So if the. If Coast J is Daglin. I'm not saying he is, but just in case he is, does that mean that he's actually attempting to make a new breed of angels? Or like fire angels, just like the Asteri created archangels in Crescent City.
- [103:34]
Lexi
Interesting.
- [103:36]
Nicole
Is that a fun theory or is that an interesting.
- [103:38]
Lexi
I mean, that's me getting a little technical with her being a fire bird versus with wings. But I like where your head is at. I also just don't think that he is a Daglin.
- [103:48]
Nicole
That's true. I definitely think the Seraphim were created by, oh, 100.
- [103:53]
Lexi
Especially because the Illyrians were.
- [103:54]
Nicole
Yes, yes. Ah, so good. Okay, I've been foaming at the mouth to talk about this since we started this episode. Let's talk about seers in the Maspers, because they exist, and nine times out of ten, it is a witch. Which got me thinking, because in the scene where Azriel says seer, Elaine turned to Moore, who was now gaping at my sister from her spot beside her on the couch. Elaine says, is that what this is? Why is she asking more specifically, I.
- [104:26]
Lexi
Know where you're going with this.
- [104:28]
Nicole
Then quote more at last blinked, mouth parting like that magic of hers had at last solved some puzzle. Slowly. Clearly, she nodded. Why would Elaine be asking more for confirmation if she's a Seer? Especially if Seer magic is known to being tied to witches in the Mas verse. Now, several options here. This could be a huge Neon sign that the Archerons are actually deciding descendants from witches instead. Which actually got me thinking during your surreal tea time. If the Archerons are descendants from witches, and let's say the Ouroboros mirror is a witch mirror. No wonder Feyre could. Yes, no wonder favorite could master it. Now, I did get texting with our good friend Lauren from Book Huddle and she found this. Oh my God. So good. There are theories around the Archeron sisters being descendants from witches with about the 45,000 million times that nested is mentioned being a witch and silver flames and acavor. So there's a lot of theories around it. So Lauren went down a rabbit hole with me. Do you know what the word Kraken means?
- [105:37]
Lexi
Tell me.
- [105:38]
Nicole
It means cauldron.
- [105:40]
Lexi
No.
- [105:42]
Nicole
Are the Archerons descendants from the Kraken witch line? Or does the Cauldron turn them into Kraken witches? Because. Because other than the Ouroboros mirror, like I just mentioned, there is not really any tie from with Feyre being a witch. Now we do know that the Krakens look much more High Fae than they do like Manon, who with the iron and all that kind of stuff. So I'm spiraling. Completely spiraling. There's about two different options that I really and truly see. Number one is that they're descendants from witches. And the second is that they were created as witches. Actually they're is a third and that is that more is it still? This is back on my more as a descendant from the Kraken witch line and no fucking wonder. Elaine is like hi, other witch in the room. Is that what this is is? I like confirming with you now. On another note, in Throne of Glass, like book one, Throne of Glass. Celaena mentions how, quote, Sears had once used Bloodbane as a drug to view spirits from other worlds. Bloodbane AKA AKA Fabane, AKA something that exists in this Acotar world. I'm sorry, what? What could this mean? I'm freaking out, but I'm not done. Because let's talk about the Ouroboros mirror. Because when Feyre is looking into research around it, some of the research suggests that whatever evil taints the Weaver of the Wood also taints the mirror too. The research says, quote though they hadn't known her name, only that a Dark Queen had once had it. Dark Queen? We mentioned this episode Black Castle. We mentioned last episode Black Blood. The Weaver of the Wood have black blood. Is she Vog? Maybe even a Vog Queen? Which. Yes, yeah, I agree. Now if that's the case, that means that the Archerons, if they are a descendant from witches, they would have some vog blood in them. Which also might be another reason why they are because witches are is all witches are are all witches are part vog. That would mean that they'd have some Vogue blood in them. So going back to the fact that this might be a witch mirror, though, one of the ways it could have ended up in Mor's family line is if she is a descendant from the Kraken witches, that might be how it ended up in their possession. Maybe it wasn't theirs when they came to the world because the Ouroboros mirror was here long before they were, but maybe they were the ones who took it because they were the witch clan of the world.
- [108:11]
Lexi
Maybe.
- [108:12]
Nicole
Okay, I need to like calm my heart rate down because I'm freaking out. Well, okay, question. Do you think that at some point Elain might take Fae Bane, slash Bloodbane and view spirits from another world? Because I think so, yes.
- [108:26]
Lexi
I could definitely see that. Absolutely. Although it technically it's supposed to nullify powers and we know that it worked on Nesta, so it has nothing to do with the Cauldron. So that would be a really crazy thing for that to be a very unique thing. Only for Elaine. It's not out of the question by any means, but just saying.
- [108:48]
Nicole
I think if someone hadn't read the entire Mass verse and remembered that one line from when Selena is fighting Kane in Throne of Glass, it would be a hard pill to swallow.
- [108:58]
Lexi
I will also throw out that Throne of Glass was written so long before the series that I It's hard to connect those early books, I think. I'm not saying it's not impossible, but that kind of deep Easter egg might be more of just like a similar thing that is in two different worlds and that's that. Continuing our conversation about how Kosche turns the other women trapped in his lake into swans. The only other mention in the Mass verse about swans at least I will be honest, I do not have the ebook version of Crescent City 1 or 2. So assuming that it is not in either of those books, the only reference is in reference to Mab, the youngest of the three, not really three legendary Fae queens. Her animal form was a swan and she was heavily associated with the element of water. Healing was her ability. That's where where Aylin gets her own healing powers from. I have no idea how she could be connected to these women Kosh Day have, but that is the one swan parallel I found in the mass verse and of course it is connected to Koshide, who I definitely think we are going to see some other connections to with the other realms there. So anyway, so just keep this in mind for the next Acotar book, assuming we learn more about Koshe and he's the Big Bad.
- [110:13]
Nicole
I did a quick ebook search. There are two mentions of swans in a house of sky and Breath. There were none in Earth and Blood. The first one was Madame Kira, who is the dance instructor. She is a swan shifter. And one time in Therian's pov, the River Queen's daughter had emerged from the mists in a pale oak boat pulled by a bevy of Snow White swans. I don't think it's related, but it's just fun.
- [110:37]
Lexi
No, that's good for me to know. And that also is just another reminder that I really do need to get the ebook versions of.
- [110:44]
Nicole
I know.
- [110:44]
Lexi
I just listen to the audiobook. I know, I know I need to do that. My bad. Crazy.
- [110:48]
Nicole
I have a short and sweet mask versus madness for the day. Let's talk about Moore's blades in battle. Quote more. Wore Illyrian leathers as well. But the blades on her were different. Slimmer, lighter, some of their tips slightly curved like lightning given flesh. Seraphim blades, she told me. Gifted to her by Prince Draken himself during the war. Lightning is very interesting given that Hunt, who is an angel in cc, has the power of lightning and the Seraphim are the angels of the Acotar world. I don't think this means anything. It's just like a fun little nod to Hunt, I think.
- [111:23]
Lexi
All right, well, Nicole, step aside because I have more mass verse to discuss. Let's get into Feyre's crown. The crown is described as crafted of silver and diamond, all fashioned into swirls of star and various phases of the moon. It has an arching apex holding aloft a crescent moon of solid diamond, and it's flanked by two exploding stars. But more importantly, she let this crown call to her among the others. She feels drawn to it in a similar way as the ring in the Weaver's cottage that had Rhys's magical imprint on it. And while the crown doesn't look heavy, it does feel heavy. She says it feels like very strange. So it. It looks lighter than it actually is. When I first read this emphasis on the pull Feyre feels from this crown. Remember, that is why she chose it, because she really felt drawn to it. I immediately thought of the theory we've been talking about with her. Being of starborn lineage, the Shortest version of this is that perhaps the Archerons are also descendants of ancient Fae. Specifically Thea, who was Starborn. What if this crown was Theia's? And then her daughter Selene inherited. Inherited it. And she is the one, remember, who married the High Lord of the Night Court. The timelines of this family heirloom treasure trove, we'll call it, being 10,000 years old kind of lines up with Selene, who was born less than 15,000 years ago. And then when Bryce, Nesta and Azriel are going through the tunnels toward the prison in House of Flame and Shadow, there is a particular line that stood out. Quote, to the right around the nest, natural archway, an array of stars and planets had been carved, crowned at its apex by a large setting or rising sun. Bryce's star glowed brighter as she faced it, guiding her here. These carvings all through the tunnels were made by Selene. And while this description matches, of course, the Dust Court, and in fact, I think there might even be a crown that might be on the COVID of Silver Flames that also matches this Dust Court, it is an eerily similar description to this Night Court crown. And Bryce's starlight pulls her in this direction. Again, like, I don't think that's like a one to one matchup at all. But I thought it was so interesting with very similar descriptions there. And then here's the biggie. We get another mention of a crown of stars during Celine's mega download in House of Flame and Shadow, with an Asteri wearing the crown. And who specifically serves this Asteri?
- [113:47]
Nicole
Thea.
- [113:48]
Lexi
So what if Theia took this crown of stars from the Asteri she served after they overthrew the Asteri, and somehow it originally belonged to the Astiri, and then Theia was able to put her starlight power into it to make it her own. Or the Astiri took it from the Starborn in the first place. At first I was, well, maybe this is a dread trove crown that the Asteri was wearing. And therefore it couldn't be this Night Court crown. No, the dread trove crown is made of golden spots, spikes. It has nothing with stars in it. So that to me was like a oh my God moment about how it actually has a connection to Thea and the Starborn. And then because it was very specific that Thea served this particular Esteri for centuries. And then we get two more mentions of a crown of stars that are associated with Bryce, at least in House of Flame and Shadow, where Hunt swears he can see A shadow of a crown of stars around her head. It's not actually there, but I wonder if it's reminiscent of the real star crown for the Starborn. And the real crown is there in the Night Court super secret treasure room that is 10,000 years old. And because Feyre is also Starborn, that is why she is drawn to it. But guess what? I'm not even done talking about crowns. Putting aside the Starborn connection to this crown, kind of. There are theories about how this all connects, but we're not going to get too crazy here. This is more of just really cool parallels. Let's shift to the Throne of Glass Connection because there are multiple crowns of stars with similar descriptions as the rest. I don't think it's the same crown by any means. Like I do think it is the same crown with Thea and the Asteri. The timelines get way too complicated. We still have to talk about these though, and a lot of what I'm pulling here is spurred from the fantastic Reddit post called Two Books, One Crown by Claim Salt 16:1697 yes, we have the link in the show notes. Manon has the crown of stars, which was originally Rion and Kraken's the last queen of the Kraken witches. I know you think here, Nicole, but I will say this crown of stars has a different description than Thera's quote. A living glowing thing that glittered in her hand as if nine stars had been plucked from the heavens and set to shine along the simple silver band. There's no mention of moons like the Night Court crown, and Manon describes his crown as being light, whereas Feyre's crown feels heavier than it looks. So I do however, love that parallel there with the witches and their own crown of stars. Which brings me to Mab's crown that is Aelin's now by right because she's her descendant. It's described as a crown that is ancient and glowing, crafted of silver and pearl and fashioned into upswept wings that meet in its peaked center. It's encircled with spikes of pure diamond tint and shimmers like the moon's rays. It's not the exact same as our Night Court crown, but. Oh my God, that is really, really similar.
- [116:31]
Nicole
Like really similar.
- [116:32]
Lexi
It is also far heavier than it looks as if it has a core of solid iron. So I think that Thera's crown could have a core of iron based on this exact same description of weight. And then when Aen wears it, she shines bright as a star. Sound sounds like some starborn language there to me. Although I admit it could also just be really cool. Similar magic descriptions. Like I will say that. But come on, Nicole. And then just a quick other thing here that I really didn't get too into. Because they'll be honest. It was 11:30 at night last night and I need to go to bed. Elena also had a crown of stars. And then the most random connection to Acotar of all of this. Glow worms.
- [117:15]
Nicole
I did not think.
- [117:16]
Lexi
The treasure room. The treasure room Reese shows Farah has glow worms illuminating the crowns. And Aylin is in a cave with glow worms described as a sea of stars. They are literally the same creatures with glow worms like this. They are the same shiny blue. Like they're the same kind of thing. So there you go. There's a big connection. Glow worms in both worlds. Okay, wait, I'm done. Yes.
- [117:38]
Nicole
If Rion and Kraken's crown is similar to Florida Feyre's crown, is that further parallelism that they are from a Kraken descendant witch line? Or is this more parallelism for Thea and them being of the starborn descent? I'm leaning towards Thea.
- [117:59]
Lexi
I am too. Like, I am convinced that it is the same crown. And that is right there showing that Feyre is starborn.
- [118:07]
Nicole
And I think it's like Bryce, it's heavy. Oh my God. And then they're like distantly related.
- [118:11]
Lexi
That is why then I was also thinking about it because we had been saying, well, maybe the wasn't that ancient Fae warrior. Because she is. I agree, because I was thinking about it. And Celine during her big download, made sure that her mother's memory was essentially erased. And oh, what is the bone carver say? Yes, exactly what the bone carver says. So they're the ancient fey warrior who is now for forgotten because her daughter made sure she was forgotten and she only now has part of her bloodline in humans, which I do think are both in Ember. Therefore in Bryce and in the Archerons. And boom. There is a great parallel right there.
- [118:51]
Nicole
Delicious. All right, folks, that is it for the day.
- [118:57]
Lexi
We are now going to enter our mass verse madness segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today we are discussing concepts from only the Throne of Glass series. So please only continue listening. If you have read Throne of Glass.
- [119:15]
Nicole
Let us start with why, oh why did Nesta ask more about witches? Thus continues. My more is absolutely a croc and witchcrack theory. Because Mor seems to know quite a lot about witch magic. Also, how she's describing it with it being a power beyond their natural reserve and how it's, you know, like spells and archaic tools that are used to harness the power and like made more than the cauldron allotted. Like this is what I would imagine the third of the Night Court. Those are the kind of powers I would imagine that person to have. Also because Mor when entering the scene is all like ha ha ha jokey. And then Nesta asks her what's the difference between a Fae and a witch? And quote Mor answered with sudden seriousness, why are you so suddenly serious, Mor? Is it because someone is asking you about your history? However, I will say that there are some very convincing arguments about Nesta being an iron teeth witch or at least having some iron teeth blood in her. But all of those will have to wait until Silver Flames. I apologize for being such a tease. Or hell, maybe Nesta has some iron teeth and Moore is a Kroken witch. I am like so convinced it is actually insane because when witch is brought up on the page, at least thus far, it's always been around more and more has always had some kind of reaction. Like I don't think that's an accident. And it is time for one of my favorite crack theories. Lexi, are you ready?
- [120:42]
Lexi
I am ready.
- [120:43]
Nicole
That crack theory is that the surreal is actually Caltain Rampier from Throne of Glass. I have been seeing this all over the Effin interwebs and I'm going to pull most of this info from actually a video from that girl reads on TikTok video in the show notes. All that good stuff. But let's start off with the cloak connection which is the big thing that set off this theory here. When Caltain is about to sacrifice herself in Morath, she gives Elite a scrap of the cloak that Celaena gave to her back when they were prisoners in the Glass castle. That clothes cloak meant so much to Caltain because of that moment with Celaena and honestly, it was really the first time anyone showed Caltain any act of kindness. What does the surreal cherish above all? Freaking cloaks and sometimes chicken. But there's more. Celaena Slash Aelin is also known for frequently saying quote a better world and the surreal's dying words are leave the world a better place than you found it. So this could be Caltain being touched by Celaena's kindness and wanting to pass it on on to the next person. That girl reads also connects that Caltain is the castle gossip and loved the tea. And what is the cereal known for the tea. I love that like she's like, this is such a silly connection. And honestly, I'm so here for it. I love it. Now, there is also a theory that whenever a huge act of magic occurs, a portal rips in the multiverse, basically. So when Caltain destroyed Morath with Shadowfire, she basically ripped open a portal into Prythian and overtaken time, became the Surreal. This is my favorite, though. This is what sealed the deal of this crack theory for me. When Caltain dies, quote, as she brought it all crashing and crumbling around them, Caltain smiled and at last burned herself to ash on a phantom wind. When the Suriel dies, Feyre thinks, and I quote, I could have sworn that pile of ashes was stirred by a phantom wind. Oh, also, when Feyre asks for the Surreal's name, it does not give it to her, saying that it's not important now. This is just so much sus SJM shit right here. Last but not least, as the surreal is dying from Feyre, quote, real pain as mortal as any creature.
- [122:55]
Lexi
Mortal.
- [122:56]
Nicole
Kaltane. Now, I do need to throw a huge wrench into this theory that when the surreal dies, black blood is what sprays. So could this be a result? As Caltain, you know, had the collar on her, she was Shadowful Fire. She became part vogue over time, basically. However, as Caltain is dying in Queen of Shadows, she does slice herself open a little bit, and her blood is red. So that's a little bit of a hole in this theory. I don't know. The Phantom win really sealed the deal for me.
- [123:22]
Lexi
Today's Mask versus Madness is a mini one with minor spoilers from both the Throne of Glass and Crescent City series. So if you haven't read all three series, this is where we part ways. But before you go, remind that next episode we will be covering AC War, chapters 69 through 74. In other words, get ready for the final battle against Hybern. Oh, yeah.
- [123:45]
Nicole
Part one. We would like to give the biggest shout out to the newest members of our inner circle, Patreon. We appreciate you so much. Oh, my goodness. And we're so happy to have you as part of the Patreon community.
- [123:59]
Lexi
The biggest showers of love to Ashley.
- [124:01]
Nicole
Natasha, Jessica, Stephanie, Chrissy, Anya, Medina, Chandra.
- [124:06]
Lexi
Jennifer, Sarah, and Candace. And if you're like, oh, my gosh, I want to be showered with love and have my name shouted out at the end of a podcast episode, be sure to join the Patreon party.
- [124:16]
Nicole
We also have new merch. Or at least by the time you listen to this, we have merch. We have an amazing new merch store with many new items in it. I actually just got my Spice Watch sticker. It's right here on my computer. I love it so much. And I'm also ordering a Spice Watch apron. I cannot wait. I can't wait. Wait. Link to all the merchandise is in the show notes. And of course, do you have five seconds? I bet you do. That means you can rate and review the podcast. It literally takes you five seconds to hit that five star button. And if you want to be a little extra like we know you do, you listen to this podcast. You've sat with us for two hours. You are an extra person. You can also write a little love note in the review section. And please note this is so, so, so helpful to any podcast you listen to. So. So don't just extend your love to the fantasy fangirls. Any podcast deserves that love too.
- [125:04]
Lexi
We are now going to enter our Mass Verse Madness segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today, we are discussing concepts that give minor spoilers from Crescent City and Throne of Glass. So please only continue listening if you've read both series or don't care about minor spoilers.
- [125:22]
Nicole
I mean, the first one is like, it's not even a spoiler. It's just, hey, this is a thing that's in both worlds. The white foxes that are in the Winter Court quote bearing what looked like to be messages strapped to their little embroidered fests. I mean, this is the otters of Prythian, which I can find. Which is cuter, the otters or the foxes? I would swoon over both. I love them. They're adorable.
- [125:42]
Lexi
I might go with the foxes, but that's only because I really love the Wintercore.
- [125:47]
Nicole
You need to read Quicksilver Woman. Oh my God. Number two, Is that Rhys telling Feyre quote, you do not yield. Woof. Oh my God. I was transported just right back into Kingdom of Ash. Pain. Now, it is important to realize acowor released in May 2017, which means she was working on it all the time prior. And then Kingdom of Ash was released of September of the following year in 2018. So I wonder if actually you do not yield was born as part of this exchange between Favor and Rhys, and then she used it with Aelin in Kingdom of Ash. Number three. I would be remiss if in the Ouroboros Mirror episode, I didn't mention it possibly being a witch mirror. For the full download of that, go to Acowar episode four in the Mask vs Madness section, but especially if this mirror was Striga's, who has black blood and is described as a queen. I wonder if this is maybe even like a Vogue queen's mirror, which is like a more extreme version of a witch mirror. I have no idea. But then there's also the tie in between Striga being the three faced goddess who the witches worship in tog. So that would also kind of add that extra element of it's like a witch mirror on steroids, basically. And then last but not least, number four, the three stones that are used for scrying. I immediately wondered if it's a stand in for the three series and more importantly, the three FMCs for the three series. It could be another call for the Arkesian amulet with the three interlocking circles. I mentioned that earlier with like the bone carver drawing that on the cell floor. I don't know, just the three. I was like, oh, three. Three females, three fm, the three faced goddess. The three. Oh, duh would absolutely work too. So I don't know, I just thought that was a fun little tie in and I wonder if that was just a little nod to each of the three. Now, it is important to note that by the time the Acor came out, Crescent City was not out yet. But I do think she was working or at least cooking it up in her head.
- [127:39]
Lexi
All right, we are now entering our Mas verse madness section segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today we are discussing concepts that give spoilers from Crescent City 3 House of Flame and Shadow. So please only continue listening if you've read the Crescent City series. We have to talk about Truth Teller and its prominence in House of Flame and Shadow.
- [128:01]
Nicole
I'm gonna get on my high horse for two seconds and then you're gonna actually, like, be, you know, intelligent. Like, give actual information. I just need to be mad for four seconds. In chapter 69 of Acowor, Azriel said, it never failed me once. Quote, he gently took her hand and pressed the hilt of the legendary blade into it. It will serve you well. True. And you know who else it served well? Bryce fucking Quinlan, who stole his emotional support dagger from him. I will never, ever get over the fact that she took his emotional support dagger and then yeeted out of Prythian. Does it make sense for her and her story? And she has no loyalty that sure it does. Whatever does. I'm still irrationally mad. Like, I'm still so mad. Especially the fact that he's never given it to anyone. And Elaine was the first person. And then someone stole it from him anyway.
- [128:52]
Lexi
And then she gave it back.
- [128:53]
Nicole
She did. Anyway.
- [128:56]
Lexi
Truth Teller's twin is the Star Sword, which is a sword Bryce carries and is originally from this Acotar world known as Guidian King Fion's Sword. These two two weapons are drawn to each other, and when close, they sing to one another. Truth Teller also glows a dark light in response to the sword's white light. In Midgard, there is a Fae prophecy which says, quote, when knife and sword are reunited, so shall our people be. AKA Truth Teller and the Star Sword. I understand two meanings to this prophecy. One, and I'll say the main one here, is that the Fae people of Perithean have been separated for 15,000 years. Years. And so have these two weapons. The Fae's original homeland is where Acotar takes place. And that's where Truth Teller has been all this time. And then Thea went with some of their people to Midgard, taking the Star Sword with her. Well, actually, Truth Teller originally went to Midgard too, but then it went back with Selene anyway. So when the knife and sword are literally reunited, so are the Fae people of Prythian and Midgard. The second meaning is when these weapons are united, they can open a portal to nowhere. How? Because the sword is made and the knife is able to unmake things. I don't know exactly what that entails, but anyway. In other words, made and unmade, matter and antimatter. Thanks to the sword and knife being reunited, Bryce is able to destroy the Asteri and send them to this place of no existence. By defeating the Asteri, the Fae of Midgard are free from their tyrants and able to unite in a way they never had been able to before. When Bryce transported through realms to the Fae homeland, her Star Sword guided her to its twins so that they could be reunited. And that is how and why she ended up in Velaris near Azrael with his Truth Teller. But how did Azriel end up with Truth Teller in the first place? We don't know yet. But the dagger originally belonged to King Theon's dear friend, Annelius. When Annelius died during the war against the Daglan, King Theon took Truth Teller and began carrying it until he died. And Theia took it. Once in Midgard, Thea sent her daughter Selene back to their homeworld with the harp and the dagger. Since Selene married the High Lord of the Night Court and had children with him, we can assume Truth Teller was passed down through the generations of the High Lord of the Night Court. Which makes me inclined to think Rhys gave Truth Teller to Azrael or his father gave it to him as a symbol of giving the dagger back back to the ruler's right hand man. And dear friend Asriel is indeed familiar with Annelius's name. Because when the story Vesperus says to him, quote, Did Fion send you then to slay me in my sleep? Or was it that traitor Annelius, I see that you bear his dagger as his emissary or his assassin. Following that statement, quote, the words must have meant something to Azrael. The warrior let out a small noise of shock which yes, Azrael is absolutely familiar with with the name Annelius. Now did he know that this dagger had previously been Aeneas's? We don't know. That might have actually been that moment of truth for him. But Aenelius was the very first Illyrian warrior. The path of Aeneas that Nesta guards in silver flames, that was the pass of Aeneleus. He was the very first Illyrian warrior and the rite is in honor of him. We will talk about that so much more in silver flames. But there is that huge, huge parallel there. One more thing about Truth Teller. During Selene's mega download in House of Flame and Shadow, she says about these two weapons, quote, as she had helped made them. They answered to the call in her blood, to her very power. This is Celine talking about her mother Thea. Building on my previous theory that the Archeron sisters are distantly related to Thea. This means that Elaine's ancestor wielded Truth Teller and answered to the call in her blood. One more reason why Elaine could be faded to wield Truth Teller in such an impactful way that I don't know why I'm so convinced that the Archeron sisters are descendants of the like. It's all making too much sense.
- [132:56]
Nicole
It makes too much sense. That's why like I think so. Oh my God, that's so good. One other mass first madness thing that I have to pull in is that the Seraphim AKA Drakens Legion and Drakens people are the the Acotar equivalent of the angels and AKA the Malachim from Crescent City. I also want to point out that in Acotar they have wind power which I believe both Isaiah and Micah have in obviously Micah's is like on another freaking level because he's an archangel. But definitely Isaiah has in Crescent City. So they're absolutely the same breed. I'll call it sure And I know.
- [133:34]
Lexi
That we said that this is Crescent City. Spoilers only. But I just kind of want to wrap up our conversation about Strika and Daglan and stuff like that. Spoilers for Throne of Glass here. What I think is that Striga and I suppose the bone Carver too, they are Vog. I know that there's, like, that theory that the Vulg are the Asteri, and of course they're the Daglan, too, but I'm under the impression that there are different levels of Vulg. Right. Like, we already know that. And I think that the Vog might be almost like an earlier version of the Asteri and the Daglan. And so I think that Striga might. Might be, like I say, Vault Queen, but it's not quite to the same level of the all powerful Asteria and Daglin. So it's kind of like the Vault Queen is, like, a few steps below the Daglin. I. This is all just me in my own head here. But that's what I think, though. So I think she might not be Daglin and Asteri like that level, but she is just a level down.
- [134:28]
Nicole
As a Vault Queen, I'm down for both options. Am I still going to point out every single instance that the Daglin are the Asteri and the Vogue? Absolutely, yeah. Yes.
- [134:38]
Lexi
And I do think that the Vogue are absolutely connected. And like. Oh, yeah, like I said, like a lesser version of the Asteri. Almost like a less evolved version of the A.
- [134:48]
Nicole
Yes.
- [134:48]
Lexi
No Vault Queen would be able to get killed with her neck getting snapped or. Yeah, that is so I. So that's why it's like, I just don't think that she can be that powerful ultimately. Because unless it's just way too convenient of a plot point, what I'm leaning.
- [135:03]
Nicole
Towards, unfortunately, I think I am leaning. Leaning towards it just being way too convenient of a plot. Anyway, we could debate this until we're blue in the face.
- [135:10]
Lexi
All right, we are now officially entering our Mass Verse Madness segment of the episode, where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today, we are discussing concepts that give spoilers from Crescent City, so please only continue listening if you've read all three Crescent City books.
- [135:26]
Nicole
Let's talk about Amren. She mentions how she first thought her arrival impressed Prythian was some sort of punishment for disobeying her father's orders. She thinks, quote, I thought this world was some hell he'd locked me into. Hell, you say? It's Almost like Bryce Quinlan in search of going to Hell ended up in Prythian instead. There are so many theories around Hell being Prythian, or Prythian being connected to Hell or some level of Hell, or the Library is the Hell. There's so many different theories, but I will poke a hole in this. We do know from Aidas in House of Earth and Blood that Hell, Hel, is its own planet. And I don't think it is the same planet as Prythian, mainly because Ada says in that same sentence that, quote, the fae, the shifters and many others came from their own worlds, inferring that they are different from the worlds of Midgard and Hel. However, Aidas does mention how the Malachim were made by the Asteri. Malachim is Hebrew for angel or messenger. What does Amren call herself earlier in this book? A messenger Messenger. We know from SJM that she is basically an angel of death like character. However, I mentioned earlier that Amren saying Father is a stand in for God per that SJM interview. But I also wonder if it could be a stand in for the Asteri. Was Amren's kind one of the, I'll call it first versions of the Malachim. I'm assuming they were too powerful, especially given that the parasite water over time, you know, made power diminished. So I'm looking more at like Isaiah or like people like that at that level, polis, stuff like that, they would have their powers diminish over time. This would be, however, a stereotype committing a nicety because the Father was very okay with Amren yeeting off that planet. The other thing I want to know here is that the cauldron, as it's, you know, breaking the world as we know it, Feyre thinks, quote, it was a hole, airless. No life could exist here. No light. This sounds a whole lot like where the Asteri went at the end of House of Flame and Shadow. Yes. The same black hole. Yes, yes, absolutely. This is like. I don't think that this is just a coincidence. A small thing that I honestly think is actually just a coincidence. Right after mentioning the void, Feyre thinks, quote, an unending lightning strike that surged from me into this place. It's just a fun little, like lightning. And then I'm immediately thinking of Hun. I'm sure it's a coincidence, but I was like, oh, that's fun.
- [137:46]
Lexi
Well, and then what we were just talking about with the black hole and the Bob getting thrown into it, if that is the same black hole, it is literally off somewhere in the black holeness of the universe. And we know that the Book of Breathings ends up in Jesiba's library.
- [138:01]
Nicole
Yes.
- [138:02]
Lexi
And nobody knows how.
- [138:03]
Nicole
Like that. Probably how.
- [138:05]
Lexi
Well at least we know step one. And then we don't know how the heck it gets from the black hole to the library, but at least there's that.
- [138:12]
Nicole
Yeah, that part's lost on me. But we got at least step one.
- [138:17]
Lexi
I do want to continue our conversation from the surreal because I was really tiptoeing around some spoilers there. The Daglan AKA the Asteri made the Cauldron this world's kill switch. To protect their interests as the overrulers of the world, they make kill switches in every world that they go into and they take over. Like in Midgard, it's the first Light Core room, which yes, when Bright Bryce blasts God Slayer rifle into the first Light core and activates the kill switch. Quote A darkness like none you have ever known shall devour this planet and you will all cease to exist. I love when that happens. Yes, we are now officially entering our Mass First Madness segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today we are discussing concepts that give spoilers from Throne of Glass including Kingdom of Ash and Crescent City, all three books. So please only continue listening if you've read all the Mass first books.
- [139:09]
Nicole
In Feyre's opening chapter she notes how there's a wicked looking mace on Rhys's desk. I immediately was like what's this wicked looking mace? This isn't a throw away line because it's mentioned twice and I looked in the mask first and there is two other mentions of a Mason only in the Throne of Glass world. There's one in like Celaena's training montages basically in in the first book. And there's also a mention of the Trove of Anniel when Aelin, Rowan and co are basically looting K all's dad's weapons for battle and all that kind of stuff they find ancient looking maces. Could be the same, could be absolutely nothing. But I thought it was something to at least point out. But here's why I really need to be here at Mass versus Madness because my God this book gives more and more more equals witch material. In case you missed it, I am convinced convinced that Mor is a witch. More specifically a Kraken witch number one, the Morgan is a triple goddess of death in Irish folklore who do the witches in tog worship the three face goddess number two. Her family had the Ouroboros mirror, which I am 1000% convinced is a witch mirror. Number three. Witches are brought up in the Illyrian camp and immediately Nesta's like, what's the deal? Deal with witches? Who answers more. Elaine also asks more, what's a seer? And Mor is shocked, but she answers, where else do we see seers? In the Mas verse number four, when asked why she's third in command, because she's the one who Rhys calls in when Cassian and Asriel are dead. Absolutely think that this is because she can perform the yielding number five she wears.
- [140:41]
Lexi
Wouldn't she die?
- [140:42]
Nicole
Yes, she would, but so are Cassie and Asriel and Rhys. And I'm assuming, which is so terrible, but I'm assuming number five, she primarily wears red, which is the color of the Kroken witch clan. And honestly, those are all just the recaps that I could think of off the top of my head. I didn't even go back into outlines. That is how prominent this is. But now we're in Frost and Starlight, so we get more parallels. In this first one, I am going to give a small trigger warning because I do discuss stillborn birth, so please listen to your comfort level. In Mor's flashback of her being dumped at the Autumn Court border, she has three nails in her abdomen. Again, just another tie into that number three, AKA the three faced goddess. But you also can't help but think of Asterin. While Asturin's branding was because she gave birth to a stillborn witchling and from a human father, it's not entirely unlike the reason Mor was also nailed because she is now considered, quote unquote, spoiled goods. But also some rapid fire from this moment, she mentions how the nails in her are iron nails. Immediately you think of the iron Teeth witches with iron nails and more. Also wishes that she could grow claws and rip out their pale throats. Again, the Iron Teeth witches. Just everything is right there. This stretch does give me a big, big more question because Rhys mentions, quote, I knew better than to ask if she thought her mother would come along. We didn't discuss Mor's mother ever. Why? Is it because she's a witch? And what does it mean?
- [142:04]
Lexi
I thought it was just because she's a.
- [142:06]
Nicole
But maybe she's a witch bitch.
- [142:10]
Lexi
And friends, we are purposefully not going to be including Romiel or the Blood Ride or any of that kind of stuff here in today's Mass versus Madness, because trust us, we will be getting into all of that in Silver Flames, okay? Friends, we are now officially starting our Mass first Madness segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today, like we mentioned, we are discussing concepts that give spoilers from Crown of Midnight from the Throne of Glass series as well as House of Flame and Shadow from the Crescent City series. So please only continue listening if you've read these books.
- [142:42]
Nicole
We need to continue this more conversation because her POV chapter gives us some big mass first questions. Question number one what is this patch of Darkness? Well, Reddit has some answers. Competitive underscore Bus4057 wonders if this is a word gate and I'll put the link to the Reddit article in the show notes because honestly, it's awesome. We learn from Baba Yellow Legs in Crown of Midnight that quote there are gates black areas in the word that allow for life to pass between worlds. Could this be what the shadowy darkness is and more Just almost accidentally missed out on an opportunity to travel to Aurelia, Midgard or somewhere else entirely. But then, as competitive underscore bus 4057 brings up, this also could mean that Bryaxis is watching her. And maybe Bryaxis itself is a word gate. But the theory continues and this is where I just get chills. I love it because some of the commenters noted in this Reddit article this patch of darkness is also super similar to that shadowy darkness that watches hunt in the Asteri dungeons in House of Flame and Shadow. And we know that that to have been Aidas, one of the Princes of Hell. So the princes of Hell can travel through this shadowy patch of darkness. Could this be rather than Aidas? Could this be Thanatos watching More Thanatos has been mentioned in the Akatar series before. This would absolutely check out as a way for the Princess of Hell to enter our Acotar world. This crossing of worlds is especially sus when you look at the line at the end of the the chapter where More mentions mists being around mists AKA ley lines intersecting, creating thin places within the world easily able to travel to. Oh my God, this was amazing. I loved it. Question number two Is Elia an Asterian horse? More mentions how super rare and coveted the breed is. And honestly, that's all I have to go on, so it's fun to think about. And question number three and I realize this actually does have a little like the most minor spoiler from Empire of Storms, so keep that in mind as you go into it. This is a small passage from Empire of Storms in the Throne of Glass series. All of the wind talk from Mor Mor is riding as fast as the west wind and her blood calling her to go on the wind. Who else is quite connected to winds? The witches of Throne of Glass. Who specifically is connected to Western Winds. Manon is in Empire of Storms. She thinks quote the song of the Western Wind singing her home more as a witch. Mic drop. Oh my God. So with this being the opening episode of Silver Flames, I have to bring up the COVID There is a mask. And above the mask there is a partially covered sun. I'm going to call it a setting sun. AKA Dusk. There. Is this an Easter egg for us readers for Nesta's future? Possibly. Is High lady of the Dusk Court. Especially with all these goddamn Queen mentions. Or. And I guess it could be. And. Or is this a tie to her being Starborn Fae, which we will talk about.
- [145:55]
Lexi
She even goes to the prison in this book which is where the Dust Court used to be.
- [146:00]
Nicole
Do you think she's gonna be High Lady?
- [146:02]
Lexi
I don't know about High Lady. I. I have so many thoughts that are still kind of jumbled around, so I cannot wait to start getting them all clear and to start conveying them and processing and talking all about the Dust Court, the prison, the Starbornness. Like it all ties together. And I can't wait.
- [146:22]
Nicole
I have a feeling we're just going to be brushing the surface. And as I was writing this out, I had to keep reminding myself this is episode one. I can't go all into this, but we are just going to be brushing the surface with this theory today. But that theory is that Nesta, and therefore the rest of the Archeron sisters are descendants from the Starborn Fae line. Yes. Bryce, Ruhn, Rhysand, Theia, Helaena, Selene. All of them. As we discussed in our ACOMAF coverage during chapter 55. Nice that Feyre starts glowing with starlight. There are so many mentions of starlight. And when asked if it's the Day Court, it was never really confirmed that that's where the power came from.
- [146:58]
Lexi
And we've kept bringing it up since then. Like with Farah's crown. That could have originally been Bentheia's from an Acowar episode.
- [147:05]
Nicole
But this star language is just getting started in this book with Nesta emerging from the cauldron as, quote, a newborn star. And she also looks at the night sky from the House of Wind. Quote. She lets Starlight gently brush her head, her face, her neck. Imagined it running its shimmering fingers down her neck as her mother had done for her and her alone. This cannot be an accident. Without. This is written literally talking about Starlight and then bringing up her mother. So this is the question. Is their mother the descendant of the Selene line of the Starborn Fae, AKA the Fae warrior that the bone carver discussed back in Akavor, whose bloodline still runs through some human line, AKA the Archerons? We know from Selene that when she came back to Prythian, she mated with the High Lord of Night and they had babies. Was there a lost child either through them or even just somewhere down the line. And they went to go live with the humans. Maybe even. I won't say mate, but maybe mate, but go be with the humans. And then they stayed in the human realm.
- [148:10]
Lexi
Yes, Lexi, what if because they lived in Valaris and one of them decided to go be a merchant and then took off and they are actually, actually from Papa Archeron's line.
- [148:24]
Nicole
Okay, Okay. I honestly, I'm so torn.
- [148:30]
Lexi
I can shibute it to Spice Watch.
- [148:33]
Nicole
I honestly, I can't decide if this would be from Mama Archeron or Papa Archeron because there's so many question marks when it comes from Mama Archeron. For instance, Tamlin saying, like, your mother never told you stories about us. Like, all of those little hints. But Papa Archeron is so intertwined with all things Prythian through Spice Watch and Gem watch and all those things watch. Like, I don't know, maybe it's both of them. That's a little weird. But maybe.
- [148:56]
Lexi
I don't know.
- [148:56]
Nicole
I can't decide. But at this point, it is so canon to me that the Archerons are descendants of the Starborn Fae. Like, that is so. That. That's not even a question of mine anymore.
- [149:09]
Lexi
I agree. And all this discussion about a newborn star and Nessa's connection with. With stars, that's not even taking into the fact that Bryce has the same star on her and all of the implications that that has. Again, we will be getting into that throughout this deep dive. Bryce's parting words to Nesta are, quote, I think that eight pointed star was tattooed on you for a reason. Take that sword and go figure out why. Eight pointed star.
- [149:32]
Nicole
How many words is. And she emerged from the cauldron at like an emerged star. Whatever the. I said earlier that those eight words like, ah.
- [149:42]
Lexi
Honestly, at this point we just need a whole episode about this entire Starborn theory and how it connects to everything and how it connects to all these different characters. Because the evidence is all there that the Archeron sisters are descendants of the Starborn fan.
- [149:55]
Nicole
Absolutely. Pivoting ever so slightly. This is a shorter one, but Nesta saying, quote, she didn't know where she belonged in this world either. I couldn't help but think of my favorite moment from Flame and Shadow, when Ember says to Nesta, quote, you'll find your way. Nesta, by the end of this book, has a found family. But as we learned in House of Flame and Shadow, there's still something missing. Maybe that could do with the Dust Court. There's this something missing and she feels like she finally needs to go back to her ultimate homeland. I'll call it now we talked about is she going to be the Queen of the Dusk Court or the High lady of the Dust Court? I could see that. What are the things? Things that I see more is her. I'll call it Resurrecting. She's the Queen of Death. Resurrecting the Dusk. Yes.
- [150:37]
Lexi
Especially being like the Master of the Dread Trove. And remember too, the Cauldron is the creator of all life as well. And it is. Its magic is directly tied into all of the land. And even though Nesta did give her power back. Which we will explore all of that at a later time too.
- [150:54]
Nicole
But she didn't though, because she has it in Florida. Flame and Shadow.
- [150:57]
Lexi
Yes. That's the confusing thing. This book is going to give us a headache.
- [151:04]
Nicole
I feel like I need to.
- [151:05]
Lexi
Let's move on to something a little bit easier to understand.
- [151:08]
Nicole
Reese has a model that he built centuries ago that, quote, somehow allowed Rhys to ponder the existence of life outside their own world and other things. Sure. Who else has one of these other than the Priest Priestesses, the Autumn King? His purpose was wanting to learn their original homeland of the fae and the truth behind it.
- [151:31]
Lexi
Which is where reasons are.
- [151:32]
Nicole
Yes, Exactly. Yes. Do wonder if this little, I'll call it Easter Egg is here for us to prep for Crescent City sky and Breath. Because sky and Breath came out a year after Silver Flames was released in 2021. So it's almost like it's foreshadowing. But another series?
- [151:49]
Lexi
Yes. It makes me think that SJM was letting us know that, hey, these worlds absolutely live within the same universe. And like you're saying, it was definitely prepping us for the crazy ending of sky and Breath.
- [152:01]
Nicole
Still one of my favorite endings ever. But this also makes me wonder if Rhys knows that there's other life. Do you think we're going to get more crossovers of Master's characters? Like, because of Rhys's? I won't even say because of Rhys's research, but because of the foreshadowing of Rhys's research, I think if anything, it would be forever the 26th string of the harp.
- [152:23]
Lexi
I don't know if, you know, you know, what I actually think, and I don't even want to say it, is that it could potentially tie into him becoming High King. I'm not sure exactly how that would work, but you know how knowledge is power and he has knowledge about other worlds. I really do think that he and Meryl are going to connect and figure some things out. Or maybe, you know, after Bryce left, he goes to the library to start learning about, you know, how a girl with pink sneakers dropped out of the sky. And that's where he and Meryl start pairing up and they start doing way more work and then that expands into more possibilities there. So that's actually not tied to the High King whatsoever.
- [153:03]
Nicole
But yeah, I definitely think that this is priming us readers to get ready for more mass verse connections. Yes, I.
- [153:12]
Lexi
And I do think that Rhys will be a key player in those connections.
- [153:16]
Nicole
That I say that I am going to be very curious how SJM handles the next ACOTAR book, because if it's post Bryce landing in Prythian, they can't just not talk about that.
- [153:29]
Lexi
I do think that from here on it's going to be a. You have to have read this book in order to read this book, and it is going to get a little bit complicated.
- [153:37]
Nicole
I genuinely do hope so. I hope that it is. You have to have read at least Flaming Shadow, because, yes, there's a lot of information and yes, it's going to start getting complicated if SJM tries to dance around the fact that a girl with pink sneakers was here in the realm. That's gonna get more complicated. Especially if this is post Bryce having been in Prythian, which I can't.
- [153:57]
Lexi
And then the entire download that Azriel and Nesta did receive well, and the.
- [154:02]
Nicole
Fact that Selene looks like Rhys's sister, I could.
- [154:06]
Lexi
Ah, so many loose ends.
- [154:08]
Nicole
Yes, I need the date for ACOTAR 6. Please God.
- [154:12]
Lexi
We are now entering our Mass Verse Madness segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today, we are discussing ideas with spoilers from the entire mass verse. So please only continue listening if you have read all of the books from Crescent City and Throne of Glass.
- [154:29]
Nicole
Alrighty, back to the Rhys's last name conversation there. There are, of course some mass first theories around this. God, I love this community. Most popular being Dannon, especially with the likeness to Ruhn. But we do know that Ruhn takes after his mother in likeness and the Autumn King's last name is Dannon. So unfortunately, I do think we can rule out Dan in here. So that brings me to another one. What if his last name is Havilliard and Rune's mother's last name name was Havaliard and there's just a bunch of these Haveliard lines in these different worlds. However, here's the wrench. Gavin Haveliard was the first Havalier that we know of in Dorian's line and he is human. So it could be Celine's blood is still running through the Haveliards line. And that's the human line that the bone carver was referring to, which Celine does look like Rhys's sister. So that's not out of the question. However, there's also the idea, and I love this idea, it's that Rhys's last name could be something absolutely ridiculous. We've had Fenris Moonbeam and Lorcan became Lorcan Lucken. So I'm leaning more towards this option. And like, what if Rhysand's name is like Nighthawk or something like that? Like, I am Nighthawk.
- [155:41]
Lexi
You must call me Nighthawk. I am Dragon. Shout out if you've seen that meme. It went super viral and I was very proud of myself. It was so fun.
- [155:48]
Nicole
I love that meme.
- [155:50]
Lexi
So here is a question though. Do we ever know what Fion and Thea's last name is?
- [155:54]
Nicole
We do not.
- [155:55]
Lexi
Because we know that Selene marries the High Lord of the Night Court. So it probably wouldn't go through her line with the last name.
- [156:01]
Nicole
But anyway, that's a last name. We're not being told for a reason for sure.
- [156:06]
Lexi
I'm probably going to be in the minority here, and this is not fun whatsoever, but I think that we as a fandom are looking into the last names a little more than SJM and she just didn't come up with last names.
- [156:17]
Nicole
Yeah, I think we're all so starved for anything Acotar that we're like, it's Rhysand Nighthawk. Anyway, moving on to my second and final Mass versus Madness. It's a short one today. Nesta falling down the stairs. When she does fall down the stairs, Nesta, quote, blinked at her hand. She'd seen sparks. With all the witch and witchcraft language around Nesta, people wonder if there is some witchness in her lineage and there's some theories. Wondering if she tapped into almost having iron teeth claws in this Moment. Personally, I actually wonder if this is more her starborn power, if she is of the starborn line, which I'm convinced she is. We never see Bryce use any starborn power that sparks come about, but maybe the parasite in the water could be dimming it. So in my opinion, this is Nesta accidentally tapping into Starborn magic.
- [157:10]
Lexi
So I do think that this is specifically referring to her silver flames, which we know know Nessa will wield very specifically in House of Flame and Shadow. Well, friends, we are now going to enter our Mask vs Madness segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today, we are discussing concepts that give spoilers from all three Crescent City books and the first three Throne of Glass books through Air of Fire. So please only continue listening if you've read all of those books.
- [157:39]
Nicole
We have to continue the conversation. Conversation around the bargain tattoo, because, oh my God, there is so much more layered to this now that we've read House of Flame and Shadow.
- [157:47]
Lexi
Did you all know that Bryce has the exact same eight pointed star on her chest? It's. It's a scar there. Oh, my God.
- [157:54]
Nicole
I know. Oh, my. So we know from Bryce that her scar came out. Quote, when I revealed who I was, what I am to the world, I drew the star out of my chest. This got me thinking because. Because when Nesta decides to train to tap into that purpose, that is hers and hers alone to choose. That is when the mark appears on her skin. We know that the eight pointed star is also on the floor of the prison. That used to be the Dusk Court. We do know from Bryce to Nesta. Quote, I think that eight pointed star was tattooed on you for a reason. Take that sword and go figure out why Nesta has to resurrect the Dust Court. Right. Like, have we. Are we in agreement on this? And it would also be so poetic with her power being death, if she were to resurrect something.
- [158:38]
Lexi
I love that so much. Yes. Well, and then also if we remember, in House of Flame and Shadow, Bryce's star is directing her to that location in the prison there. Now Nesta no longer has her eight pointed star, but she does point to Bryce and say, I used to have that exact same tattoo on me. And now with Bryce, it's a scar, while with Nesta, of course, it's a tattoo.
- [158:59]
Nicole
And earlier, what you were saying with. With that symbol used to be connected with the OG people of the Dust Court. There's no way Nesta's not a descendant from Thea. Like, there is no way.
- [159:10]
Lexi
That that's my biggest thing too is that I really do think that they are descendants. I mean, going back to what Bryce said, you know, I think that eight pointed star was tattooed on you for a reason. Take that sword and go figure out why. I think that they are going to find out that they are descendants of Thea.
- [159:26]
Nicole
Yes, I do too. Do you think they're gonna go into to the prison and it will be the three Archeron sisters. So maybe we're going to get the next act to. Her book is actually going to be split POV between Elaine, Azriel, Nesta, and like, maybe Lucian too. I hope Lucian. But like, it's going to be a split between Elaine's story and also this continuation of Nesta's story at the prison and learning about Dusk and all that kind of stuff. Or do you feel like that. That feels like two different books to me, but I don't know.
- [159:55]
Lexi
It really feels like two different. Two different books. I. I will say that I don't know if nervous is the right word for it, but I am curious to see how this is going to go with ACOTAR 6 because there are so many different loose ends, both with what we've been waiting for from Acotar, as well as some of the setup that we got in House of Flame and Shadow. So I can't help but think it has to be Azriel and Elaine, whether it's them being together or their own separate stories. But Nesta has such a big question mark next to her too. And I don't see us going on Nesta's journey from a different character's piece pov. But if we have Nesta and Elaine, it might feel a little too crowded.
- [160:31]
Nicole
I will say House of Flame and Shadow was what, like, seven people's pov. And I do think we're going to be steering away from two people POV and into more like four or five. And I. It's not my favorite, I'll be honest. But like. But we have been with these characters for so long that it might feel a little bit different. I do wonder though, because Nest is not the only one with this tattoo. It is Cassie as well, so. But I don't think it's from his past. I think it was tattooed on him with this bargain because it was a bargain with Nesta because she's extra powerful with the cauldron, all that kind of stuff. Yes. But I do wonder, with that mark being placed on him, does that mean he's going to be tied to the Dust Court and all the courts and all that kind of stuff.
- [161:13]
Lexi
I think it goes back to. Because Nesta is his mate. That is why he's tied in. Yes. So his destiny, his fate is tied directly to hers.
- [161:23]
Nicole
This is a really small thing, but I loved this so much. Gwen enjoyed the Dusk services more than anything because she thinks the music is beautiful at that time. And that got me thinking. The Valkyries. I'm going to talk about the core three Valkyries with Emery, Gwen and Nesta. If Nesta does go and resurrect the Dust Court, do you think Gwen's going to go with her and Emery?
- [161:44]
Lexi
I think I could definitely see that. Yeah.
- [161:46]
Nicole
I think it'll entirely depend on. On if they go with their partners, because we're assuming that More and Emory are going to be together. And then maybe if Gwen and Asriel are together, which, who knows, but that's a possibility.
- [162:00]
Lexi
I don't see Asriel leaving the Night Court.
- [162:03]
Nicole
I don't either.
- [162:05]
Lexi
Even though he doesn't like the Illyrians.
- [162:06]
Nicole
He does hate the Illyrians, but I don't know, he. No, actually, you know what I said I don't either, but I don't know because there is like that. There's a few lines where he's like, I don't feel like I've ever belonged. Or where Rhys mentions how he never feels like he's ever belonged. So actually, I. I'm going to take that back. I could see Azriel. Yeetin.
- [162:21]
Lexi
So I will say, when I was talking earlier about how Nesta might resurrect it and how they would then be at the Dust Court, there's still the issue of the prison.
- [162:30]
Nicole
Yeah.
- [162:30]
Lexi
And the reason that. That that area is so barren is because Selene was bringing all of those monsters to the prison and it turned into the prison. And because of all of their terrible power, it like, leeched the life out of that area. So I don't know how in the world they will resurrect life back here with those monsters still at the prison. They would literally have to move the prison, move the monsters to somewhere else.
- [162:56]
Nicole
I have no idea. I have no idea how that's gonna work.
- [162:59]
Lexi
You know what? I think that Romiel might be our new Under Romual.
- [163:05]
Nicole
That's the New Isle Kingdoms.
- [163:07]
Lexi
Is that what you.
- [163:10]
Nicole
Amazing. All right, last one. We have to go back to Blue Anis, which is one of the monsters that Cassian trapped in the prison. Blue Anis has cobalt skin and iron claws. She is a Female who has a taste for human flesh. Does this sound mighty familiar to anyone else? Hello, Iron Teeth Witches. Especially because there's the whole Blue Blood clan with. I mean, yes, it's not. It's cobalt skin, but still, there's the Blue Bloods, and that is not that far off. But here's what got me thinking. Glanthus, we know is the father of the bogey. What if Blue Anis was the mother of the Iron Teeth Witches?
- [163:44]
Lexi
Possibly. Okay, we are officially entering our Mass Verse Madness segment of the episode where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today, we are discussing concepts that give spoilers from all three Crescent City books, most of all, House of Flame and Shadow. So please only continue listening if you've read the series. Okay, so first and foremost, let's keep the serial tea time on the Dread Trope going.
- [164:07]
Nicole
Also, real quick, you all, it is.
- [164:09]
Lexi
Getting so hard with Silver Flames and discussing some of these concepts and having to keep the spoilers out of it.
- [164:16]
Nicole
Because it's like some things that we absolutely know from Crescent City are only speculatory in Acotar. So it's like we have to be like, well, then there's this possible fourth object. Let's Luna's Horn. Like, it's so hard.
- [164:29]
Lexi
And I'm also not trying to make these, like, Crescent City surreal tea times either, so I'm trying to make sure that it's is relevant to Acotar. So anyway, here goes. We have to spill the beans on the fourth Dread Trove object, Luna's horn. This could honestly be its own episode, so I'm going to do my best to summarize it as it relates to the Dread Trove. The horn, made out of ancient bone, is able to open the rifts between worlds, and it serves as a bridge between realms. How useful for a multiverse. This is seriously one of my favorite parts about how the Masters connects. When this all unravels with the fourth Dread Trove object and all of that. My jaw was on the floor and I was so excited. More than 15,000 years ago, when the horn was on its home planet, where Acotar is and the Asteris last Daglan were defeated, Queen Thea used the horn and the harp to open a portal into Midgard and lead her people, plus some from the Autumn Court, to this seemingly welcome planet, her daughters Helaena and Selene used the horn and the harp to open up a portal back into Barythean. But only Selene, the Harp and Truth Teller made it back. Both Helena and The Horn stayed behind in Midgard after this and the battle with the where she was killed. Pelias, the first Starborn Prince and High King Theon's High General, took the Horn, as well as the Star Sword and started crafting his own story. That's a whole other topic, though, that I'm not going to get into right now. Ultimately, the Horn broke. The Fae and the Asteri tried to renew it through magic and spells, but no luck. It was then given a place of honor in the Asteria Archives before it was transferred to Lunatheon Luna's temple. After the city's establishment, Danika stole the Horn, ground it up into powder, and had it tattooed to Bryce Quinlan's back with Witch ink. This made Bryce, unknowingly the bearer of the Horn. And because she is Starborn Fae, she is the only one who can wield the Horn.
- [166:13]
Nicole
Wait, pause, hold on. Because if she's Starborn Fae, then if also the Archeron sisters are Starborn Fae, specifically N. Nesta, she. That would also be another reason why she can wield all three objects and live to tell the tale, in addition to being such a powerful maid person. Or is that stretching?
- [166:32]
Lexi
It's confusing.
- [166:37]
Nicole
Keep going.
- [166:38]
Lexi
This gave me quite the headache. Let's just leave it at that. All right, let's talk more about the Dread Trove. History. Fion and Thea spearheaded the defeat of the Daglan using their own weapons against them. Now, of course, this does include Truth Teller and the Star Sword, but it also includes the Dread Trove items. They have found them where they were hidden under Romiel. And then she took them. And then they partly used those to defeat the Daglan. Then, after defeating High King Theon, Thea took the Trove for herself. And then she became High Queen of Pythian. And she had unchecked limitless power. But she wanted more than what the Fae homeland could offer. So I'm assuming she hid the mask and the crown before departing with the Harp and the Horn. That is why it was last known to be on Perithean. Because she hid them in Pertheon. Fast forward to Selene returning with the Harp. Of course, she is the one who hid the Harp in the prison. Once on Midgard, we find out that the Asteri have been looking for the Dread Trove. They are on a mission to find the Dread Trove. In fact, even in present day, before the Asteri are killed or sucked into the Black Coral, whatever you want to call that, before Bryce defeats the Asteri, they have been looking for this homeland because they want that dread trove back. So when Selene returned back to the homeland with the harp, of course she is the one who hid the harp in the prison. I'm not going to get into all of that quite yet. We will be going to the prison in a later episode. So I'll put a pin in that with all the harp and prison stuff there.
- [168:00]
Nicole
I was listening to the prison part of the book just like this morning or like even last night, and I swear to God, I felt like I was going on a trip. Like once, you know, all the mask verse connections and then there's the people like banging in the walls and all this. It's just, ah, it's so good. But we're not there yet. However, like Lexi mentioned during the surreal part of the Acotar part of the episode regarding the mask, it is mentioned how no one can take on and off the mask and live to tell the tale. Except for Nesta. However, we know two other people who also can take the mask on and off. Bryce, who has the maid object tattooed on her back, is able to wear the mask and take take it off without any repercussions. But so is Hunt, who is able to slip the mask on and off. And he slips the mask on to escape death in the final battle. But yes, putting on the mask is very painful. It basically rips his soul apart. But he is able to take it off or it actually kind of falls off and live to tell the tale. Because Bryce and Hunt have magical maid sex the night before and therefore Hunt is made.
- [168:59]
Lexi
So the way that I see it is because we know that the harp can transport magic from one person to another. For instance, that is how Thea transported her raw Starborn magic into both of her daughters. I think that maybe that's not necessarily only a harp thing, but it is something that the horn gives Bryce that ability to do as well. And I also have a new theory that I had called you about yesterday. And we'll get into this more later because I'm still processing through all of it, but maybe Nesta is. I'll call it the Chosen Starborn because when she was made, the cauldron transferred that magic really up front and center for her versus it being diluted through thousands of years of ancestry.
- [169:40]
Nicole
Yes. Oh God, we need to stop or else I'm going to just break out in hives.
- [169:46]
Lexi
Maskeverse is getting really hard because like, these could be their own episodes and we can't let them be their own episodes. Maybe someday, but not right now. Okay friends, we are officially entering our Mask versus Madness segment of the episode where where we call out series crossover references and discuss theories. Today we are discussing concepts that give spoilers from the entire mass verse, so please only continue listening if you've read all the books in both Throne of Glass and Crescent City. Let's continue with our part two of Surreal Tea Time regarding the Bog of Urid, because some major historical events happened here. But first, we know from Selene's download that after Thea and Theon defeated the Daglan and ruled as High King and Queen, Theon wanted to pass the crown after his passing to their eldest daughter Helaena instead of his wife Thea, because he didn't believe she was a worthy successor and he thought it was time to let the next generation rule after he was gone. Well, Thea and her general, soon to be lover Pelias, did not like High King Theon's decision and made plans to overthrow him. Which brings us back to the Bog of Urid. It used to be the Daglan's private game park, where they crafted terrible monsters to serve as worthy prey. That's what I think the Kelpie was created for. While Fion, Thea and Pelias were hunting in the bog, a kelpie dragged a bound and gagged Fion into the water's inky depths. Quote the once proud king screaming as he went under. And Thea and Pelias just let it happen, watching impassively. I'm also guessing they were the ones who bound and gagged him in the first place. Then thus summoned Guidian, a Star Sword, which was Fion's cauldron mate sword and truth teller its twin, which had been his dear friend and Alius's, who died in the war from the waters where they had been dragged down on Fiona Person. And when she held the sword and dagger, starlight flared from Theia as well as the blades glowed with their own starlight, reacting to the starborn power. This empowered Thea to become the ruling High Queen, now in possession of the four Objects of the Trove and both sword and dagger. So why is all of this important and applicable to the Bog in the present day? Number one, the Bog is described as dead trees, gray with age and weather, jutted like the broken lances of a thousand soldiers, some draped with curtains of moss. No leaves clung to their branches before Fion was dragged underwater by the Kelpie. Maybe this Kelpie that Nesta slays. This land was lush with grass and trees in bloom. But the moment he died, literally the moment he died, petals began falling from the trees, and it was as if the land died with its king. So here we are, more than 15,000 years later, seeing this dead land, still mourning the loss of its king. Number two in the Bog of Urid, Nesta sees soldiers in ancient armor. And quote, judging by their fine armor, they were warriors and kings and princes and lords.
- [172:28]
Nicole
So we have to wonder if these were Fon's men. Like this. I read that. And I was like, I read that too.
- [172:34]
Lexi
And we know, according to legend, this land used to be sacred. So could they have been laid to rest here along with their weapons as a final honor well before the king. King was killed? Or maybe a battle against the Daglan took place here. There's thousands of soldiers, so I don't think it was only from this one hunting excursion.
- [172:53]
Nicole
Yes, I love the idea that this is one of the battles against the Daglan and that's where this took place. Especially given the number Insolin's download. It's also only mentioned that Fion, Thea and Peleus are here. But based on this description, it feels way too on the nose not to be a Fion nod. There's also the first soldier who stands up and like, helps Nesta against the Kelpie. In my head canon, that is Fion.
- [173:18]
Lexi
It could be personal revenge against the Kelpie because he was also killed by the Kelpie. Oh my God, that's so good. Also, we do know that after the Dagon were defeated, that the land really came alive again without them literally feeding off of its magic and all of the people's magic too. So maybe that's what really brought this land back up. And after High King Fion was defeated and killed, he was somehow tethered to this magic of the land. Or something along those lines. I don't know exactly, but just some fun speculation there.
- [173:49]
Nicole
Because Fion and Thea ruled for. And I think it's like it's described as a millennia after they defeated the Daglan. So that is entirely possible. Yes.
- [173:57]
Lexi
And then she ruled for another millennia after he was defeated. Yes. While the inner circle doesn't know how the mask ended up here, my guess is that Thea was inspired by the location of Fion's downfall and she came back here to hide the mask before she went to Midgard. Especially now that it seems cursed and the land is dying. She's like, nobody else is going to come here. This is a great Place to hide the mask.
- [174:20]
Nicole
We've also heard of another Kelpie in House of Earth and Blood. It's a little less than one year before the start of our story. Bryce tried to convince Jesiba on the Haba's behalf to get some iris eels to brighten up the space. Instead, she got a Kelpie quote that had humped the glass with all the finesse of a wasted college guy. God damn it, I love Crescent City. Later in the book, Jesiba brings in a nok, which insolines download when they're in the bag of Urid part and she's showing all of that, they see a kelpie and Bryce notes how it looks like a relative of the nok.
- [174:53]
Lexi
Speaking of the kelpie, it speaks a 15,000 year old language as we were talking about one that Rhys and Amra know, which is how they will communicate with Bryce before she takes the magic bean. Rhys only understands every other word here, but he communicates pretty well with Bryce, so he must have brushed up on his Babel app in between diaper changes.
- [175:12]
Nicole
Taking a bit of a pivot. This is also not the first time in the mass verse that we've seen silver fire. I have been waiting to talk about this. In Empire of Storms, when Deanna possesses Aelin at Skulls Bay. Quote, cold white light tendrils flickered silver flame. And that's when it dawns on Roa that this is not the wildfire she's about to unleash, but moonfire so cold it burned. Quote the cold of the stars, the cold of stolen light. I love the stars. Like kind of a tie into the night court. Stolen light. Stolen. I always just associate with Nesta. I don't think that this means necessarily that Nesta is a descendant of Deanna, but a comment on a Reddit post Snarf, snarf, snark mentions. I say that five times.
- [175:55]
Lexi
That sounds like a South park reference.
- [175:57]
Nicole
Like it might like it is. Actually mentions how it could be because the Cauldron's power is that of the God's power. So Deanna's power was utilized in the cauldron, or one of the Cauldron, part of the Cauldron. And that's one of the parts that Nesta took. I also couldn't help but notice that Deanna is also known as lady of the Hunt. Could this be tied with the Wild Hunt? I have no idea. Some people also wonder if Deanna is Nesta in a different time timeline. To be quite honest, I don't know. How that would work. Unless tog is way in the future, which wouldn't really line up with what we know about shifters and hofasts and all of that.
- [176:35]
Lexi
Oh yeah, I don't. Because then Aylin falls through the acotar world and re slows her down, which is this winter solstice in our story that we'll be coming to here shortly. So I don't. I. I think that the whole time jump things like we already got realm worlds. I think it's all on the same timeline.
- [176:52]
Nicole
I agree. And I think personally I love this idea that Nesta and Deanna are tied somehow, but I do think that it is just similar powers and a fun nod to the similarities in these different universes.
- [177:04]
Lexi
I want to pull out this quick little nod of foreshadowing between Azriel and Nesta in House of Flame and Shadow. In chapter 32 of Silver Flames, Nesta thinks how the two of them could be allies. And it would be so cool to see their friendship and camaraderie on the page months later in House of Flame and Shadow.
- [177:19]
Nicole
I love Nesta and Azriel and House of Flame and Shadow. Like Brett and I just got to Caves Part 1 and oh My God, I just. I love them so much.
- [177:28]
Lexi
Me too. It's also again, so hard to not act like House of Flame and Shadow is quite a full blown sequel after Silver Flames because otherwise we'd have a whole other episode here in Mass vs Madness. So I just wanted to pull out that one little one.
- [177:42]
Nicole
No, earlier how I was like, yeah, I don't think Nesta's powers are gone. We know they're not gone because.
- [177:47]
Lexi
Yeah, we know that they're not gone. Yes, yes.
- [177:50]
Nicole
The dungeons of the Hewn City. While in the interrogation room with the two surviving soldiers, we learn that whatever remains of the bodies that Azriel is working on, it goes through the hatches in the center of the room which leads to a pit of beasts below. We will become so familiar with this in House of Flame and Shadow when Bryce is stuck in that same room, or at least a room like it, and opens the great to winnow down to the beasts who do not attack her. And this does lead to her again, Part one of Cave's Conquest. Also in that interrogation room, guilt and shame cloud Rhys's eyes because of how Feyre feels with the way that they're treating these soldiers who are not in their right minds. I think that this is the moment and maybe possibly others like it on stacked on top of this. That was the real turning point for Rhys, using his powers with prisoners more sparingly and why he didn't look into Bryce's mind and instead asks for permission at the beginning of House and Flame and Shadow. And of course, Bryce shot him down. I am still team. If someone dropped from the sky and was claiming that these evil things called Asteri had it out for my planet, I would definitely do some mind sleuthing. But that's just me.
- [178:59]
Lexi
I will say, I also do think that she came from a place of good intentions. Like, she wasn't. I'll call it a bad guy. At least as far as they knew. Like, the jury was still out. And so he didn't want to initially jump to those conclusions of treating her like a prisoner. It's more of treating her like a. We don't know what to do with you yet. Let's figure this out here.
- [179:20]
Nicole
So they put her in a dungeon with a grate with beasts below it that.
- [179:27]
Lexi
You know what I mean? Like, she's, like, just wanting help. She's asking for help. She's not trying to kill anybody. She's an anomaly that they don't know what to do with her versus her being a bad guy.
- [179:39]
Nicole
But she hasn't stolen Azriel's emotional support dagger yet. And that.
- [179:43]
Lexi
Of course not.
- [179:44]
Nicole
Yeah.
- [179:44]
Lexi
Today we are discussing concepts that give spoilers from all three Crescent City books, as well as Empire of Storms from Throne of Glass. So please only continue listening if you've read all all of those books. All right. I'm so excited to keep talking about Pegasuses here. The legend about them originating from the island of the prison is correct. When the territory was the lush islands of the Dusk Core and ruled by Queen Thea, her winged horses soared among the clouds. The magic of the land. As we know, the territories have nourished the Pegasuses to thrive in their natural habitat. And the sky literally did devour most of these winged horses because they had brought them when they opened the realm portal and went to Midgard.
- [180:22]
Nicole
We also know from Selene's download that Thea rode them into the battle on Midgard.
- [180:27]
Lexi
Yes, and in the Prince of Caves, there are carvings of the Pegasuses being slaughtered. I believe most of these creatures died during that big final battle. And the few that survived ended up in Avalon, which makes sense that they ended up with Helena and Pelias because he became the first starborn prince of Midgard. And I think he also ruled over Avalon because that's where he was buried with Star Sword. However, after the Astiri were defeated. Two dozen Pegasuses appeared in Avalon after Bryce frees the land. It's like they sprang out of the Earth like they were hibernating or hiding there for all those thousands of years. Bryce will wonder if Helaena somehow kept them secretly alive. Waiting until it was safe to appear again. The land of Avalon yielded its lush green lands holding the power as it was bid until someone with the Stars Sword and Truth Teller came to unlock it at the eight pointed star mark. When Selene returned to the Fae homeland and corrupted the land that was once her mother's Dusk Court. Imprisoning evil monsters that cause the islands to shrivel and the Earth become barren. I wonder if that's when they went to the Day Court. And it makes me also wonder if there's like a Day Court connection to the magic of the Dusk Court that the Pegasus are drawn to. Even if their numbers are dwindling because the natural source that once helped them thrive is gone. All of this to say, what if Nesta does something similar to the prison territory with freeing the land? I know it's barren for different reasons than Avalon with Selene putting the monsters in the prison. But I could see Nesta freeing the land in a similar fashion. And maybe the Pegasuses will return to their homeland and Nesta will fly off into the sunset on her winged horse with her Bat boy by her side.
- [182:02]
Nicole
Woo. Let's take to another thing that we learned from this big big old Selene download. And that is about Guidian. We get the long lost sword guiding mentioned in the stretch.
- [182:14]
Lexi
It is so hard not to do a full cereal tea time here on Guiding Slash a Star Sword. It would be its own mini episode. I pretty much just did one for the Pegasuses. But you know what? I'm gonna go dive into this anyway. After Thea and Pelias ensured Theon died by KE in the Bog of O Uhrid that we learned all about last episode. Scaled hands from within the water, thrust Guidian and Truth Teller out of the pool. Theia summoned both blades to her and when she snatched them, starlight flared from Theia Guiding. And Truth Teller answered to Thea because she helped make them. They answered to the call in her blood, to her very power, to her starborn power. With Guidian, Truth Teller and the Dread Trove. She ruled with unchecked power as High Queen Amren believes Gwydian disappeared around the same time as the last of the Dread Trove Objects. Which correct. It did. Because Thea took it with her on the Crossing. To Midgard.
- [183:04]
Nicole
After Thea came over to Midgard with the sword, she left it with Helaena when she transferred some of her power into both of her daughters.
- [183:11]
Lexi
And Helaena with Gwydian. And the horn didn't make it back to Midgard with Selene, who was in possession of Truth Teller and the harp. Pelias unfortunately ended up taking Helene and forcing her to be his wife. He also took Whiteian for himself, and I assume he renamed it as the Star Sword. But according to Aidas, the Star Sword was supposed to go only to Thea's female heirs. I think that's why Bryce is ultimately the owner of the Star Sword. And it makes sense for the setup that she ends up giving it to Nesta, who may also be a descendant too. As the first prince of the Starborn in Midgard, Pelia's butt face was buried with the Star Sword in the Cave of Princes. Since females were not allowed in the Cave of Princes, there was no opportunity for a female heir to attempt to reclaim it. And yes, it seems like that was a rule about the cave on purpose, so a female heir wouldn't have the chance. Luckily though, Ruhn ended up retrieving it. I figure fate knew he would willingly give it to his sister, the female heir of Thea. Okay, sorry, this is getting longer than I meant, so real quick. The Star Sword guiding can defeat death, which death definitely makes sense because it was made by the Cauldron and can kill the unkillable. The Autumn King avoids touching it, and I have to wonder if it's for a similar reason that Rhys and the Bat Boys don't touch Nesta's made weapons. Here in Midgard, there is a Fae prophecy which says, when knife and sword are reunited, so shall our people be. Referring to both the Star Sword and its twin Truth Teller. So when Bryce reunites them, when she travels to the Fae homeland with the Star Sword, she's fulfilling the multi meaning prophecy. Which I know we've talked about in Different Master Madness. So I'll stop here. I love how this is one of the objects that connects these worlds. And Silver Flames just has so many Easter eggs. Last thing to note, I promise. Bryce gives Nesta the Star Sword and tells her to go figure out why she has an eight pointed star tattooed on her back again, tying Nesta to the Starborn and the Dust Court. And now she has two made great swords. Holy shit.
- [185:02]
Nicole
Brava, Sjm. And bravo on Lexi for pulling that. Let's do some rapid fires. Now.
- [185:08]
Lexi
Helion thinks one of his Ancestors tried to wear the mask before, but as far as we know, the mask was hidden by Thea before departing from Midgard. Hence why it was lost to history. At least that lines up with the timeline we have. Although we could be wrong. There's never any mention that she hid the mask and crown. That is simply an assumption. And before Thea, the mask was in the Asteris possession session. So is there something more to Helion having such a reaction to the mask's power? Maybe it's connected to why the Pegasuses went to the dacort. Like I was mentioning earlier. Like there's a tie between the Dusk and Day court. And the mask is warning the High Lord of Day not to mess with the mask, which was wielded by the High Queen of the Dusk Court. And it's warning, like, not to be corrupt like her. Yeah, I realize that's a stretch, but I'm still pointing it out.
- [185:53]
Nicole
One thing I want to add to the Valkyrie kings mentioned. So the Valkyries in Norse mythology are connected to. In addition to Odin, the main God in Norse mythology, they're also connected to the Land of Hell. Spelled the exact same as Crescent City Hell. H E L as one of the five possible locations for the dead to go, I'm massively summarizing that. If you're a Norse mythology person, I know I'm leaving a lot out. Please don't at me. I know. So here's my crack theory. What if one of the princes of Hell is the old king you mentioned earlier? It has to be someone less than 500 years. But we do know that Thanatos exists somewhere on Prythian, so maybe that's my guess. What if it's Thanatos? When the bat boys unsheathed the weapons, the greatsword quote truly glowed like moonlight lay within the metal. After last episode with bringing up Deanna's possession of AEN and Skulls Bay, and we know that that was Moonfire. I wonder if this Moonlight. Moonfire. Is it another parallel to the silver fire being moonlight?
- [186:56]
Lexi
Oh, I see. I was gonna say it's a nod to Nesta's starborn power. Moonlight. Starlight feels similar. I'm also so riding hard on this Starborn train here, too. On the note, speaking of which, of starborn power and these weapons, I will say Rhys is of starborn lineage, so theoretically, he should be able to wield these weapons. If we're talking about it in the sense of starborn power. So maybe it doesn't have anything to do with the Starborn power, then.
- [187:24]
Nicole
Are you backtracking for yourself?
- [187:26]
Lexi
Just throwing a bunch of spaghetti at the wall. It's mass verse. There's no rules in this section.
- [187:31]
Nicole
Last but not least, fucking when you're made. This is such a small thing, but Amren's quote, I be careful when you're fucking her at a Cassian is kind of a valid warning. I know I ripped into Amren so hard this episode. So here's something that she did, right? Because technically, that's what happened when Bryce transferred some power into Hunt, allowing him then to wield the mask. He was temporarily made with a capital M. So with how much Cassian and Nesta fuck, I'm guessing there's a lot of made points stacked up within Cassian.
- [188:01]
Lexi
Today we are discussing concepts and lore that gives spoilers from the entire mass verse. So please only continue listening if you've read all of the SJM books. Okay, everybody. They're gone, right? Can you tell how blue in the face we were not being able to talk about all of the Crescent City tie ins to this part of the book. Like, at this point, for today's MAS verse, just read Crescent City 3. There. There's your MAS first. Madness.
- [188:27]
Nicole
Seline download.
- [188:29]
Lexi
Yeah, just read the Seline download. Oh, speaking of which, let's kick off this ridiculously long mass verse madness with our serial Tea Time Part 2 on the Daglin. And I'm just trying not to do like an entire Crescent City Sural tea time. I don't know what their equivalent would be. Maybe like Jessup's Library or something.
- [188:46]
Nicole
Oh, that's good. Library of Parthos, if you will.
- [188:49]
Lexi
Yes, the Library of Parthos. But no, we're not doing that. This is within aar. All right, so who are these? The Daglin. Really? They are the Asteri. No. Who conquer worlds and feed off the magic and lives of the citizens. Basically, they're parasites. They're tens of thousands of years old, at the minimum, taking immortal to a whole new level of truly immortal. They're also able to survive long periods of time without breathing, eating, or drinking, as we saw with Thea's punishment for. For Vesperus trapped beneath the prison for more than 15,000 years. Though the description of Daglan in their true form remains unknown, it is widely speculated that their true forms are an extreme form of raw power, forged from stars that inhabit whatever bodies they possess. Bryce describes the Asteri as being made of light. The Asteri claimed that their great powers are from holy stars inside themselves. And they can physically manipulate things with its light. By the way, Asteri means star in Greek. The Asiri can kill and destroy with their power. I feel like with being all powerful beings, that goes without saying. But we learn that their current power originates from both the first light and second light of Midgards inhabitants. Thus the Asteri feed off the population and use that power instead of their own. A quick history about the Asteri the Asteri claim to have forgotten the location of their original homeworld. But we know from Vesperus that was once green and plentiful. Except it grew to be too populous. Wars broke out and rivers ran dry.
- [190:21]
Nicole
I also want to point out that the bone carver says, quote, where we came from. I do not believe it is now anything more than dust drifting across the plane. There is no home to return to. None that I desire. That sounds a whole lot like what Vesperus said. I am still Team Death Gods equal Aary Light. I'm going to say they all come from the same world. We also know that almost every death God we've encountered has black blood Weaver Lanthus. I guess the surreal too was a death God. So what does this mean when we're looking at V? Because Vulg is immediately what we associate with black blood. I look at the death gods like Lanis Bone Carver as almost like Vog princes slash prince princesses. And the Asteri are the evolved Vog kings and queens. Because Vog and Vesperus both had black blood.
- [191:13]
Lexi
Yes. So anyway. So on their home planet, this world's brightest minds found ways to bend the fabrics of worlds and travel between them. They call themselves Wayfinders, or world walkers. So they left their destroying planet to find life elsewhere in the universe. However, once they left their home world, the Asteris powers started to dim. They were dependent on their land's inherent magic, and magic on other worlds wasn't potent enough. But they realized this too late, and they couldn't find a way back home. So they had to figure out ways to amplify their powers with the magic of the land. For instance, in the Fae homeworld, that's where they pooled their power together and imbued the gifts of the land into the cauldron so it would work to their will. They warped it, turning it into something. Something deadlier. No longer just a tool of creation, but of destruction. They have records of their conquests going back millennia. Due to their need to survive and thrive off others, the Astiri have spent eons traveling from world to world. Conquering and farming off the life forces of other races they deemed sustainable. And destroying any that rebelled. They give many worlds killswitches to protect their interests. However, during their conquests, only three worlds have been documented. Documented as successfully driving the Asteri out. Including the Fae homeworld and Hell. Okay, so let's go back to the Asteris reign in the Fae homeworld. They ruled over the Fae for 5,000 years. And the Fae ruled over the humans and the lands the Daglan allowed them to govern. Any attempt at rebellion was quashed before forces could be rallied. The Daglan were just too powerful. The Fae were forced to make the tithe to the Daglan once a year to offer up kernels of the Fae's power. Power in tribute to their true masters. This was to fuel their own power. Remember? They feed off others powers and to limit the fae's power. I'm assuming even though the Fae were forced to participate, technically they had to offer up this kernel of power. The Asteri hid pockets of their power throughout the lands in case their enslaved Fae should cause problems. Some of these pockets of power are likely beneath sacred mountains at their very roots. The magic draws all sorts. Sorts of creatures. Not the fuzzy nice kind, but like the Midengard worm kind. Or perhaps even the crazy beasts over by Romiel as well. Hmm, wouldn't that be interesting? There are certain places that are better suited to hold power than others. Like where the veil between worlds is thin and magic naturally abounds. Mist around an environment are proof of somewhere being a thin place. Like the prison territory. And every world has at least one thin place. The Asiri thrived here with magic naturally abound and the Cauldron in their possession. Now, earlier I was talking about how they might have made the Book of Breathings. And I do believe that they did. Because the language that it is written in is the same language of what is on Bryce's back. And that is what Amren says has not been spoken in 15,000 years. And it is what Rhys did not know about too. So that would have to be the Asteris language. What Ataraxxi is from is of the Fae's old language. With the Cauldron in their possession. The Asteri made the Trove, though kept the four items hidden under Romiel and squabbled over who would use them. So basically no one ended up using them. Which brings us to their downfall. Over the millennia, the Daglan became arrogant in their unending dominion of this world. But their overconfidence blinded them to the force like none other that was gathering in secret. They, Thea ended up stealing the Dread Trove to use it to their advantage. Yet Theia and Fion and the other Fae rebels knew they needed to use the most valuable weapon of all. The Cauldron, which was located at the base of Romiel. Next thing we know, Fion is pulling Gweidian out of the Cauldron. And they used these weapons against the Daglan to defeat them, destroy them, or send them off to another realm. But the surviving Asteri want to take back the Fae homeworld, which they believe to be rightfully theirs. So remember how I mentioned Annelius fought against the Dagon soldiers at the base of Romiel? I think he held the line because they needed to guard the Cauldron. So somehow they got access to the Cauldron at the base of Romiel, and he was the one who was guarding it. And that is why the pass is named in his honor.
- [195:15]
Nicole
Oh, that's good.
- [195:16]
Lexi
I felt really proud of myself for making that connection.
- [195:18]
Nicole
That is really good.
- [195:20]
Lexi
Let's round this out with how the Daglan Asteri ruled differently on Midgard. And I'm going to use present tense here, even though we all know what happens at the end of Crescent City. Because you've read it, right? Right. Because it seemed like the Asteri learned their lesson with Midgard. Blatant oppression, like on the Fae homeworld led to revolution in Midgard. They mask their oppression through the illusion of freedom and a twisted form of democracy. More than 15,000 years ago, after they were defeated by Fion, the Asteri arrived on Midgard and began to lure other races. Races from different worlds as a means to feed off of them. This included the Fae shifters and other veneer. For instance, the shifter Fae from the Tog world. Oh, my God. Look how it's all coming together. The Assyri's propaganda is that they were liberators and enlighteners. According to them, the Asteri chose Midgard as the place to begin creating a perfect empire. And creatures and races from other worlds soon came to Midgard through the Northern Rift. But what none of these other species knew is that the Asteri put parasites in the water to weaken everyone else else's magic. The Asteri created the hierarchies of the veneer and made up a ritual called the Drop to harvest the power of the magical creatures of Midgard. These veneer are required to hand over their first light upon reaching immortality. It's essentially a tax on their magic. But more importantly, food for the Asteri. And there you go. I apologize if I forgot something that.
- [196:42]
Nicole
Was good to her. Please.
- [196:44]
Lexi
There you go. Go the Daglin Rain. Wow.
- [196:48]
Nicole
Honestly, props to SJM for creating this. Like, I know that there's Cauldron Boil Me, but, like, that is. That's an achievement. Wow.
- [196:56]
Lexi
I remember reading Crescent City 3, specifically the Seline download, and. No, you know what? Even Crescent City 2, when Bryce went into the Dusk Room, and it was just like there was so many things that were just unfolding, and it was so, so exciting to be connecting all of these dots. And it is just so cool with how we're able to bring it all together. And I can't tell you all how difficult it is to separate this Acotar Only part from the rest of everything else, because we know so much more.
- [197:27]
Nicole
Well, which.
- [197:28]
Lexi
Let's get into that.
- [197:29]
Nicole
Yes.
- [197:30]
Lexi
Okay. So quick, behind the scenes, not talking about what we actually know about the Harps flashback and the people trying to get through was one of the hardest things that we had to do on an episode. I think that was the first time I've ever pretend theorized, which was basically me just asking a million questions.
- [197:49]
Nicole
You. You asked all the questions we had until we read Crescent City 3.
- [197:54]
Lexi
Yes.
- [197:55]
Nicole
We know from Selene's download that when she ran back to Prythian, she chose to survive instead of stay on Midgard and fight alongside her sister and her mother. To be fair, also, Helena was on her way up into the Prythian portal, and then she chose to stay back and fight with her mother. But anyway, in choosing survival, Selene had to shut the door to Midgard behind her, locking out an untold amount of people and trapping them in Midgard. Which question mark? We'll get to that in a second. In Nesta's vision slash flashbacks in the prison here, she sees them as their way back is forever sealed. So. So are they like floating in the in between, or were they actually still on Midgard and are now super dead thanks to Thea and her daughters?
- [198:35]
Lexi
That was definitely my understanding because of how desperate they were with the enemy coming and the way that it's described with that opening of the worlds, it feels very much like a door. So that's my understanding.
- [198:48]
Nicole
That's what I figured. I didn't know if they were, like, floating around in the black hole, like where the Asteria. Like the place is in between worlds, if you will. But that makes a lot more sense. Nessa. Thinks how someone, quote, very wicked, used the heart blast. She ain't wrong. And Selene's download obviously has some very interesting choices that Bryce is very vocal about. While I wouldn't call Celine truly evil, though, she made some very complex choices that were inherently very selfish.
- [199:17]
Lexi
It also feels rather full circle that no Nesta is present during Celine's download and finds out exactly what happened from her flashback. So during Celine's download, Nesta and Bryce are pretty much on the same team, where it's like, you suck you.
- [199:31]
Nicole
Yeah.
- [199:31]
Lexi
And Nesta has her own reasons why as well, from all of this that happens in silver flames.
- [199:36]
Nicole
Well, also, if she's also a descendant from Celine and the Saya line, then her and Bryce have even more in common, considering they're both descendants, remnants of that starborn power. But we got to talk about this prison chamber because we learn in hofast that the constellations on the floor in the prison chamber are actually the constellations of Midgard. And right after Selene closed the gate again on many, many, many people, she sat in this chamber with nothing but the eight pointed star on it. And she set the harp on top of it right before she started carving the constellations of the world she abandoned. I also wonder if the reason that Nessa alone can step through the wards other than being made is if she is a descendant of Selene. We know that Selene keyed her son, the one that glows with starlight, his blood into the prison, making it so that only their bloodline can control the wards of the prison. If Nesta is a descendant, this is her bloodline. So no wonder she alone was able to walk through the wards. Rapid fire. Because this mass versus madness is probably, I think, the longest we can we've ever done. I think so.
- [200:39]
Lexi
Honestly, we were even literally talking about it being its own episode.
- [200:43]
Nicole
Yes. At the lake, as Cassian is watching Nesta practice swordplay. He thinks, quote, like, the eight pointed star was stamped on her very heart. This line cannot be an accident. Especially because just a few chapters later, it mentions how she was brought to the chamber with an eight pointed star for a reason. Like, the more and more we deep dive this book, the more and more I'm like, yeah, Ness is going to resurrect the Dust Court. Absolutely. I will say, however, I was listening to Crescent City 3 on a road trip recently with my husband. And when Bryce resurrects a Vollen, she basically uses the magic of the to unlock the Earth and bring life back into it. So there's a lot of assumption that. Oh well, Ness is going to do that with the Dust Court. But what does Elaine love to do? Garden. What if she has her garden? Gardening love and ability to like bring things to life. Because she is also a descendant of that same power. So maybe she and the Archeron sisters together are going to be what is able to resurrect the Dust Court. I don't know. I got a little on my little crazy high horse. Another rapid.
- [201:46]
Lexi
The three pieces of the starlight. I mean, I think that's going to stretch too far, but hold on, wait.
- [201:53]
Nicole
Because you just said. Because with Bryce, she had to use the three pieces of Thea in order to. To unlock a. No, no, no, no.
- [202:00]
Lexi
The third, she also needed to use Guidian and truth teller as well. She used a star sword and Truth.
- [202:05]
Nicole
Teller, which are now to unlock it.
- [202:07]
Lexi
Which are both now on Perithean. Yes, and take this great sword and figure out what to do about that eight pointed star. Yeah, I think Nest is going to go back to this exact location here in the prison. And I think that there might be something. Yeah, like a key?
- [202:22]
Nicole
Yes, yes, exactly. Like exactly, exactly how it was on a Vollen in order to.
- [202:26]
Lexi
Now what the hell that means for these monsters, I have no idea. Oh, but bring the Pegasuses back. I'm telling you, Nesta is going to ride off into the sunset on a Pegasus with her beautiful bat boy flying next to her.
- [202:44]
Nicole
Maybe blue Anus is just gonna be buried in the sand just like the Autumn King was when evolved. I mean, I know he was dead already, but still. Maybe they'll just be trapped below. It's Aidas. I know it is, but. No, it's Anis. What is it? Oh my God. I have two more. Okay, during the wild hunt mention Lanthus says how they had hounds, and Rhys later says that they don't look like any kind of hounds. They're used to today. And Nesta notes how these hounds look a lot like the hounds of the hewn City from Acomath. The descriptions of the beasts of the Hume city look like, quote, great scaled black beasts were carved into these gates, all coiled together, all in a nest of claws and fangs, sleeping and fighting, some locked in endless cycle of devouring each other. Now, some people wonder if this is a version of Wordhounds. Although I wonder because the description matches more that of the Ilkin, just without the wings, much like Rhys's form. No matter What. What? I'm 100% positive that this is a crossover mix hint. But I don't think It's a one to one comparison. Kind of like how the Vog and the Asteri, we think are like evolved versions of each other. In the bonus chapter with Nesta, Azriel and Bryce, where the latter plays the music on her phone. And Nesta loves it, Azriel loves it, it's great. And Nesta is baffled when she learns all of the different kinds of music and how many songs such a small device can hold. I just love that small tinge tidbit of information and how much each of the SJM women has a passion for the arts. It's just so great. And last but not least, we can't not mention the fourth object in Lanthus's vision made out of ancient bone. Of course, it is Luna's horn that is now tattooed on Bryce's back.
- [204:23]
Lexi
And it seems like it's veiled in shadow. I believe because it's worlds away, that they're not able to truly see it. Yes, exactly, exactly, exactly.
- [204:32]
Nicole
All right. I have only two very small ones, actually. This episode, which was a relief after last week, which was meaty during Cassian and Nesta's mating, I was on the hunt for any star language. Because if you remember, in chapter 55 in our coverage, I found so much star born language glowing like a star, flaring like a star from when Feyre and Rhys's mating bond is solidified. So if you want to listen to that episode, it is episode nine of our AC MAF coverage. But the only thing that I could find in this scene was when Nesta talks about the threads glowing between them. Quote, life glowed like starfire and she had never seen anything more beautiful. There's a lot of glowing language, but it's all around the threads and their bond bonding together. So I do think that that is definitely more what it's leaning towards. But the Starfire feels very on the nose and all of this star language is leaning me further and further down my hill that I'm already willing to die on, that the Archerons are descendants from the starborn Fae, AKA Thea's line in Prythian. And then last but not least, when I was reading the bonus chapter of Crescent City 3 with Nesta, Azriel and Bryce all listening to music on Bryce's phone, all I could think about was when Nesta goes back to Cassian and she's telling him all about this, you know, magical device where there's thousands of songs on it and he's just like, fuck you. Show up my Symphonia. Like all I can think. Go.
- [205:55]
Lexi
Me too. All right, friends, that is it for today. Next week we are covering chapters 60 through 64 of Silver Flames. We're really getting into the home stretch here. And of course, like we mentioned, we will have an episode releasing this Thursday all about Azriel's bonus chapter that has the fandom going. Oh my God. And yes, we will be talking a whole lot more about the famous shipbuilding battles. Is he going to end up with Elaine or Gwen? Today we are discussing concepts that give spoilers from the entire mass verse. So please only continue listening if you've read all 16 books.
- [206:32]
Nicole
Okay, you're probably gone if you have not read these. We need to talk about some things that we couldn't mention during the whole Sacred Mountain Underneath Romiel segment, because I mentioned. What if Annelius is buried underneath? We know that Celine underneath the prison carved the full story of the Fall, all of the Dusk Court. And then she had her holographic download moment. Are we going to get another one of those with Annalius under Ramiel? And then would there be another one under the sacred mountain in the middle? Since it's in the middle, Would it be from Fion? Probably not, because he died in the Bog of Urid. So I could see that one just being left alone because we already spent so much time under that mountain. But also, Cassian mentioned he hardly would call the prison a palace. Ah, but it used to be. I couldn't say that. And it was so. That was hard. That was hard not to say.
- [207:15]
Lexi
We also can't forget about what Vesperus said about hiding pockets of the Asteris power throughout the lands, specifically under the sacred mountains. There is absolutely a reason they're all barren. And I wonder if it has to do with the Asteri magic, where it's corrupted the mountains from what has taken root beneath them. Or the Asteris magic has somehow continued feeding off these locations, causing them to be the only three barren mountains. These places of hidden magic are better suited to hold power. Power than other locations where the veil between worlds is thin and magic naturally abounds. The asterisk magic thrives in regenerative magic of the land. While Vesperus goes on to discuss thin places in particular. I am so hung up on this about the sacred mountains. And Romul seems to be the only one that hasn't been explored whatsoever. We'll save more theories about what's under Romiel until next week's episode where we are going to be talking a lot more about Romul. But I Just love it all.
- [208:08]
Nicole
We also finally have made it to, I'd argue, our biggest Throne of Glass Acotar crossover.
- [208:14]
Lexi
Oh, absolutely. I'd say the only direct one.
- [208:17]
Nicole
Yeah, definitely. This is the Starfall where Aen flies across the sky. In case you forgot this part of Kingdom of Ash. Allow me to refresh your memory towards the very end of the book where Aen leaps through the gate and flies through the worlds she falls through. Luke Lunathean. Quote A world where a great city had been built along the curve of a river. The buildings impossibly tall and glimmering with light. Hi Lunathean. And then she passes into a world of snow capped mountains with thousands of shining stars flying overhead. Quote Where a winged male stood beside a heavily pregnant female, gazing at those very stars. Hello, Rhys And Feyre. From this Starfall, Aelin is unable to slow down, so she reaches out her hand to see if she can signal to them to help me, help me. And Rhys's head snaps towards her, I'm assuming hearing her using Demotti powers. And he lifts out a hand shooting a blast of dark power. Aen realizes that this is a wall and a shield that slams into her that slows her down. And then she vanishes from the world just like that. It's less than a quarter of a page, but you can't read that and not totally freak out. Something I love is that Kingdom of Ash came out actually in October 2018 and Silver Flames came out in February 2021. For reference though, AKA Fast came out in May 2018. So a little bit before Kingdom of Ash. So she already knew that Feyre was going to be pregnant at Aen flying across the sky at Starfall. This pregnancy Easter egg is just so fun that she already knew the what was in store for Feyre in Silver Flames.
- [209:52]
Lexi
So does this mean that Throne of Glass, Agata, Avatar and Crescent City are all on the same timeline? Because Alien is falling through worlds, but not necessarily timelines, right? That's been my understanding and it makes the most sense. Do you agree, Nicole?
- [210:05]
Nicole
Yeah, I think that makes the most.
- [210:06]
Lexi
Sense though, if all the worlds are on the same timeline. It does squash a lot of theories about potential generational connections between universe characters. But I think this is really does show that they are all on the same timeline.
- [210:17]
Nicole
Well, something that would kind of make me go, huh? Is that if Flaming shadow is about six months after this. So Aelin's what, 19? She's about to become the Queen of terrorism officially, with the end of the war and all that kind of stuff. Where is Lydia in this timeline then? Because we know Lydia is a descendant of Brandon Galathanius, but some people have assumed that it means that she's a descendant of Aelin and Rowan. I personally don't think so because timeline wise that wouldn't add up.
- [210:44]
Lexi
Isn't brandon from about 10,000 years ago ago or so?
- [210:48]
Nicole
Yes, Brandon is from many, many, many, many, many years ago.
- [210:51]
Lexi
So I see a descendant of his going over to Midgard during the Northern Rift. So Lydia is an ancestor of his, but from thousands and thousands of years ago when his descendants migrated to Midgard.
- [211:04]
Nicole
Yes. One of the main reasons that people think Lydia is Aelin of Rowan's is because she has that ruby ring which is similar to how Rowan's ring is described, but it's not a one to one comparison. So I agree with you. I think that she's a distant cousin of Aen.
- [211:19]
Lexi
And today we are discussing concepts that give spoilers From Crescent City 3 House of Flame and Shadow and just a little world building reference from Throne of Glass. No plot spoilers there. So please only continue listening. If you've read all of Crescent City and however you feel about Throne of Glass spoilers, I'm not going to tell you about that one. First, a little more about Romiel for our serial tea time that we learn from House of Flame and Shadow. In the caves beneath the prison. Nesta points out a carving of the cauldron perched on top of Romiel with the three stars above it. And we learn from Selene's download that the Daglan apparently kept the cauldron at the base of the monolith at the top of Romiel. So you know how Annelius defended the past to ensure the Dagon's forces couldn't get up Romiel. I think he was making sure the Daglan couldn't get back to the cauldron. So the Fae forces had gained control of the cauldron, which the Daglan originally had control of the cauldron. And so Annelius was risking his life to protect the greatest asset of all. Perhaps the top of Romiel is also the original location of the Cauldron. In fact, also from Selene's download we see a visual of Thea standing on top of Romiel with Theon. So I think the maid objects like Whiteian were dipped into the cauldron from this location. I'm leaning toward the onyx monolith being made. Made too, since legend says it has been around since before the Night Court. Well, all this history went down well before the courts were established. And it was here too, maybe, that the Daglan warped the cauldron. Perhaps that is somehow connected to the sacred mountain being barren. We also know about the Onyx monolith, that it immediately heals anyone who touches it, as Emery and Gwen will tell us in the next episode. And it takes them to where they are needed most. Previously, we had thought that it just takes you to the camp, I'll just say, kind of like to the Illyrian safety area, but they are taking to the river house. So I also think that maybe it wasn't only the cauldron that the Daglan needed to get up to the top four. Maybe they were wanting to get to the monolith so that they could transport to another realm. Perhaps. One more thing here, because I can't stop talking about Romiel. Vesperus also hints that the asterisk Daglan hid pockets of their power beneath sacred mountains. Which might also have have to do with these mysterious tunnels and underground palaces too. Yes, I absolutely think so. Vespers also says that their magic draw all sorts of creatures. So I am convinced that these ancient and cunning beasts gravitate toward Ramiel because of the Asteris magic that is hiding within it. And the Asteri? Are these beasts original creators?
- [213:54]
Nicole
There's a few other Ramiel theories that I want to throw out there as well. There are quite a number of theories that couldn't find the original poster sister about this. But Romiel is a possible entrance to Hell. So maybe that's also why the Asteri were trying to get to the top. Because they want to get to Hell and really show Apollyon what's possibly that.
- [214:13]
Lexi
Also makes sense with these beasts.
- [214:15]
Nicole
Yes, exactly. Oh my God. Yes, exactly. It's almost like how the Northern Rift connects Midgard to Hell and other realms. This is almost like the Northern Rift of Prythian. So maybe Romiel is also a thin place too. There's no mention of mist, at least that I found. But you know, that might just be oversight. This also might be how Thanatos keeps getting in and out of the fucking world. Because he is mentioned in Acavor how Thanatos daughter is giving him, you know, problems. This from Kir in the Court of Nightmares. But we know Thanatos is the Prince of the Ravine, AKA the fourth Prince of Hell. Also, Orestes, one of the three stars on top of the mountain, is connected to the Greek God that is being chased down by Enris, AKA AKA Fury, AKA Thanatosa's daughter. I'm still so convinced that fury is Thanatos's daughter. And then her.
- [215:05]
Lexi
This is like a blast from the plastic with the theories, man. We haven't talked about this in months.
- [215:11]
Nicole
I lay awake at night literally saying, thanatos's daughter is furious.
- [215:15]
Lexi
Daughter's fury.
- [215:16]
Nicole
I'm so convinced. Sierra Darling on Reddit also takes this a step further, wondering if a Nilius is now one of the princes of Hell. Hell too. We have seven levels real quickly, because.
- [215:27]
Lexi
We also know that an alias needed to get to the top of Romiel and his guts were hanging out, and that's where he died. Well, the Onyx monolith literally heals anybody who touches it. So maybe two options here. One is he tried to get to the top so that he could be healed, and he did not make it, you know, to actually touch it. Or he did touch it, and he didn't actually die. Right. Right there. And he's just in hell. And he's in hell. Now, this is also 15,000 years later, so I don't think an Illyrian would still be alive, but.
- [216:00]
Nicole
And Apollyon are still alive, and they were there 15,000 years ago with Thea.
- [216:04]
Lexi
True, but they. But Anelius is an Illyrian.
- [216:08]
Nicole
True, but what if he's like an Illyrian?
- [216:10]
Lexi
Plus, I don't know, they do call him a warrior God, so.
- [216:14]
Nicole
Exactly. Exactly. So we know that level seven is the pit, AKA Apollyon. We know that level five is the chasm, which is governed by Aidas, with Thanatos right above him as level four, the ravine. There are still levels one through three, and then four. This is the hollow, the trench, the canyon, and the abyss. Could an alias be any of these princes? I tried to figure out if there was any that we could connect to, like his name, and I couldn't find any. But there's also a theory that the monolith on top of Ramiel is a word gate. And this is why a lot of people think that you can literally touch it and then you're transported out of the blood. Right. A la Portkey style. If that is the case, a huge part of ACOTAR 6 might be discovering this word gate. And it might be a possible way to connect to the tog world again. I will never, ever, ever forget the fact that Rift hold is called Rift hold, like the Northern Rift. So maybe this is somehow to connect it to Dorian, and then Dorian's just going to come on top of Romeo and be like, what's up, motherfucker?
- [217:15]
Lexi
All right. Oh my gosh. We could literally go on and on and on about the top of Romul, what's underneath Romual, the onyx monolith, all of this. Today we are discussing concepts that give spoilers from all three Crescent City books. So please only continue listening if you've read through House of Flame and Shadow. I have a few more things to add to the cereal tea time. And you know exactly what I'm about to say here. When Bryce reopens the portal to the House of Wind from Midgard after defeating the Asteri, she she returns the mask and truth teller. You hear that Nicole? She returns the emotional support dagger. We learn that Ness has been in the doghouse since she gave Bryce the mask, but she also got to bond with Ember and get a glimpse into what love from a mother is like. Amber tells Nesta as they part quote, you'll find your way. I want to really quickly go back to what we were talking about with Nessa saying she doesn't want to rule the world, she only wants Cassian. And I do think that in the months between this there is going to be some inner conflict of how that might not be enough. Maybe not for her, you know, seeking the power, but her realizing she is destined for more and it scares her. And going back to that self discovery journey where she really does tap into that leadership quality that she does have deep down. And then of course the Big Kahuna Bryce hands guiding slash the star sword to Nesta and tells her quote, I think think that eight pointed star was tattooed on you for a reason. Take that sword and go figure out why.
- [218:39]
Nicole
Let's fucking go.
- [218:42]
Lexi
So yes, all in all the eight pointed star is extremely important. It is linked to Nesta and she is destined to learn more about it. And it is impossible to be talking to all of you about ACOTAR 6 predictions without including this Crescent City spoiler. And last thing to note, Rhys is an overproductive dad to baby Nyx and I just absolutely love, love it there.
- [219:03]
Nicole
That. See, that's the Rhysand that I miss. Like Rhysand in Crescent City acts more like Rhysand from Acotar than Acotar.
- [219:10]
Lexi
So some people do have an issue with how he pretty much put Nessa in the doghouse with, you know, the whole mask thing. And people are really upset because they had such a beautiful ending here. And the way that I see it is they do still have their struggles with one another because their personalities are so different, but they are able to Come together and be able to work around their issues. Yeah, yeah, Rhys, that is, to me, in character for him to be like, I'm sorry you gave away a Dread Trove item to another realm. Like, come on, who would not be mad about that?
- [219:42]
Nicole
And a realm that has the Daggers who are trying to get a pr. If I was raised, I'd be furious. Absolutely. I do also want to point out that there is a line when they're holding baby Nyx and he's described as having, quote, blue eyes that already glowed with his father's and mother's starlight.
- [220:02]
Lexi
And mothers.
- [220:03]
Nicole
Yes, we know that Feyre has starlight. It's assumed that she got it from the Day Court. Possibly.
- [220:08]
Lexi
Maybe.
- [220:08]
Nicole
Who fucking knows?
- [220:09]
Lexi
Oh, see, I always understood it as her being the High lady of the Night Court and really leaning into that Night Star quality. Like, there's the magic of the Night Court for her.
- [220:20]
Nicole
I think that's what we're supposed to think. And I think the actualness of it is she is a descendant of Fa.
- [220:27]
Lexi
Oh, I 100% agree. You know, I will die on that hill. Yes.
- [220:31]
Nicole
I think, like, there are a few hills that I think we're willing to die on as we go into ACOTAR 6. And I'm sure we'll cover this in our next episode as we wrap up. Acotar, the Archeron's descendant of Fae. Yep, that is a dying on a hill dramatic death that I will do. Speaking of Nyx, we get to see the beginning of Auntie Nesta and her love that she has for her nature. Nephew, as we know from Flame and Shadow, when Nesta has the mask on, it overpowers her, for lack of a better term. And no matter what Asriel says, it does not get through to her mind. So she can overrule the Maid power and take it off the House of Wind doesn't do it. Emery and Gwen don't do it. Feyre and Elaine? Nope. No way. Even Cassian doesn't do it until, quote, Nyx is waiting to. And then the silver fire goes out and the mask falls to the floor. That is a big anti energy right there.
- [221:22]
Lexi
I love that.
- [221:23]
Nicole
Speaking of the mask, though, Nesta mentions in this stretch how the Trove needs to be kept far, far, far away from her. I'm assuming that something happens in the next 6ish months. Because we know that's the difference between the end of Silver Flames and when Bryce falls into Prythian. Because Nesta does wield the mask when Bryce is in Prythian. When they're in the caves. And while it doesn't seem like she uses it regularly, based on, you know, Azriel's like, don't you dare Dinesta in House of Flame and Shadow, it doesn't seem like it's the first time she's used it either.
- [221:53]
Lexi
That's interesting because I could read it both ways. One is where she knows what to do. She's worn it several times already, like we've seen here in this book, but it's not like it's a regular occurrence. Like she just knows what to do because it is. Yeah. So I don't. I. I think it could be read either way, that it's the first time she. She's used it, possibly since.
- [222:13]
Nicole
No matter what. I don't think it's like, frequently where it's like, every week. Once a week. I talk to.
- [222:18]
Lexi
Yeah, yeah.
- [222:19]
Nicole
But I think it's like, maybe once or twice it's been used. However, if the trove is being used, I. I say frequently, more than once in these. In the six months. Is that why it's harder for her to take it off?
- [222:31]
Lexi
I have an idea. But first, I do want to say that this confirms that despite Nesta giving back most of of her power to the cauldron, she can still wield the Trove. I wonder if it was harder to take off because she doesn't have as much power than before.
- [222:45]
Nicole
Oh, I love that.
- [222:47]
Lexi
Yes. Yeah. And one more thing to mention too, as regards to, like, her tattoo and the bargain with the cauldron and all of that. The reason that we know that it is not the same 8 pointed star is because she says to Bryce, and I'm sorry, I don't have this quote in front of me, but it's something to the effect of I used to have it tattooed on me. She does not ever mention, at least that I picked up, that she has a current tattoo, whether it's the point star or not. So we still don't know what the deal is with Cauldron 1. I'm really wondering if it was a bargain that she made and then it. It was completed.
- [223:19]
Nicole
It like, came and went.
- [223:20]
Lexi
A wave. Yeah. Washed over. There's the ink and then it washed back and it's gone. I. Again, I have no idea.
- [223:26]
Nicole
But, yeah, I will say I don't think she would share that she has a bargain with the cauldron to someone like Bryce, who she is pretty suspicious of.
- [223:38]
Lexi
I agree. But we can confirm that it is not the eight pointed star.