Flea

Summary

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Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud

Episode: Flea (July 8, 2026)

Guest: Flea (bassist, Red Hot Chili Peppers; solo artist)
Host: Bella Freud

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Episode Overview

This deeply engaging episode explores the intersection of fashion, personal history, identity, and creativity through the life and experiences of Flea. Bella Freud guides Flea through a flowing, candid conversation that bravely interrogates selfhood, childhood trauma, masculinity, family, artistry, self-expression, and, of course, the sartorial choices that accompany life’s journey. The tone is intimate, reflective, and often moving, offering rare insights into Flea’s inner and outer worlds.

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Key Discussion Points & Insights

Fashion and Identity: The Power of Choice

• Flea’s Outfit of the Day
  • Flea describes agonizing between wearing pink silk pajamas with outlandish prints or a handcrafted suit from his favorite Berlin shop, Darklands. He chose the suit, animated by the energy of its handmade construction.
  • "I really like, you know, the nature of fabric, the nature of feeling someone's hand and energy and thought and doing something feels so good to me." (Flea, 02:31)
  • The suit’s designers (from Finland or Norway) personalized it with drawings and lyrics—symbols of meaningful, lived experience.
• Memory Imprinted in Clothing
  • Bella and Flea discuss the practice of leaving backstage stickers in jackets and storing memories within garments. Clothing acts as a vessel for lived history, self-assurance, and commemoration.

Music as Generosity, Community, and Yearning (05:41 – 14:04)

• Collaborations on the Honora Album
  • Flea reflects humbly on inviting artists like Nick Cave and Thom Yorke to collaborate, underlining the mutual generosity among musicians.
  • On Nick Cave: "He's someone for me who... always gets down to the core truth of the essence of the matter of the thing, whether it's a terrifying narrative... or something really beautiful." (Flea, 09:27)
• Art as Transmission of Truth and Love
  • He describes music as an act of surrender and communion, a process of joining energies for beauty’s sake rather than for achievement.
  • Bella on Nick Cave’s music: "It is the most beautiful song... all the goodness of sadness and the beauty of sadness..." (Bella, 10:15)
• Memorable Exchanges
  • Nick Cave’s rapid, heartfelt reply to Flea’s invitation: "He responded within a half hour... said yes, that the song meant so much to him that he was a little intimidated to do it." (Flea, 08:03)

Childhood, Family, and Masculinity (14:04 – 29:02)

• Parental Influence and the Search for Identity
  • Flea opens up about his strict, emotionally distant father and how being denied affection pushed him to question restrictive masculinity, seeking courage and authenticity in vulnerability.
  • "I just went my own way. And I think that I'm so used to going my own way and being my own self." (Flea, 15:59)
  • Flea discusses resilience in the face of trauma—neglect by his mother and turmoil from an abusive stepfather, and the way literature, music, and friendship became guiding lights.
• Sibling Bond as Lifeline
  • Flea’s sister recently passed away; he expresses profound gratitude for the understanding and camaraderie they shared, especially through literature.
  • "We were able to really talk about that stuff. She’s the one that understood." (Flea, 21:41)

Processing Trauma: Rage, Creativity, Relationships (29:02 – 39:04)

• Coping Mechanisms and Growth
  • Flea directly connects childhood trauma to anger, both internalized (self-flagellation) and externalized, and the lifelong work of unlearning these patterns.
  • "It's a lifetime work for me. It's the work of my lifetime." (Flea, 31:51)
  • Music becomes the vehicle to transmute rage into joy, a theme evident throughout his creative output.

Fashion, Hair, and Persona (44:59 – 54:06)

• Hair as Identity
  • Flea narrates the evolution of his hairstyles from feathered hair (inspired by 70s L.A. cool) to punk mohawks to his current ‘dandelion’ gray.
  • On his mustache: "It's my trumpet playing mustache, so I created a space for my mouthpiece to go in the middle..." (Flea, 52:04)
• Playfulness with Gender and Fashion
  • The mustache, his clothing choices, and his playful approach to masculine/feminine norms become ongoing themes tied to both jazz tradition and personal self-expression.

The Complications of Anger, Compassion, and Self-Knowledge (55:09 – 60:43)

• Aggression and Self-Destruction
  • On Anthony Kiedis’s story about cruelty and self-violence, Flea confesses his destructive tendencies turn inward (drugs, self-abandonment), highlighting how trauma can produce both victimhood and bullying in the same person.
  • "My real acting out with anger has been against myself. I've, like, self-flagellated to in a very destructive way." (Flea, 57:17)
  • Bella relates, “My anger just becomes this kind of dead stone that takes me to the bottom of a river...” (Bella, 55:47)

Brotherhood, Friendship, and Fashion as Freedom (61:14 – 74:32)

• Anthony Kiedis as Spark and Fashion Mentor
  • Flea recalls Kiedis encouraging him to always wear something unique, awakening his relationship to clothing as individual statement.
  • "I remember it, like, struck me like it was a big thing. It struck me like a ton of fucking bricks... why would I... Like, my mom took me shopping to the store where everybody goes, yeah." (Flea, 63:36)
• Transformative Friendships
  • Flea shares how both Anthony and other friends introduced him to new music, art cinema, and broader cultures of aesthetic possibility.

Attraction, Style, and the Self (67:49 – 78:04)

• Fashion and Attraction
  • Flea admits that what someone wears does affect his attraction to them, but he tries to remain open to being surprised: “To really look at it. Cause I always feel like I just like people who. You know what I mean? Because I, you know, I like their soul man, you know.” (Flea, 76:37)
  • Bella and Flea discuss the evolution in what draws him to women—first the allure of revealing jeans and silk blouses, later a punk scene where strength, self-possession, and unique style became more magnetic than conventional sexuality.

Vulnerability, Anger, and Relationship Wisdom (78:28 – 82:58)

• On Letting Go
  • Flea recounts losing his temper (in men's group therapy) and being met with gratitude by a friend who honored his vulnerability, which moved him deeply.
  • "'I feel so honored that you feel safe enough to do that to me, because I know that means so much. You love me.'" (Flea recounting his friend, 80:26)
• Love as Truth
  • The truest relationships, Flea and Bella agree, are founded in a willingness to reveal not only the beautiful but also the shameful and painful parts of oneself.

Leadership, Creation, and Artistic Evolution (82:59 – 87:06)

• Becoming a Bandleader
  • Making Honora was an act of creative risk for Flea. He shares Neil Young’s lesson: “If you aren’t taking the risk of failing, you’re not doing anything.” (Flea, paraphrasing, 83:34)
  • The experience of building a new community in jazz mirrors earlier discoveries of selfhood through adversity and friendship.

Closing Reflections & Style Signifiers (87:06 – 90:05)

• The Optimism of Orange Socks
  • Flea's orange socks—made by the same artisan who crafts for the Pope—become a light-hearted emblem of his approach: optimism, daring, and embracing the bright notes of life.
  • "When I think of orange, I always think of Jimi Hendrix has that song Bold as Love...orange is young for the bold and the daring." (Flea, 89:41)

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Notable Quotes & Moments

• On Music and Generosity:
  "I always just feel like I'm a student and everyone else is a master, you know?" (Flea, 06:20)
• On Masculinity:
  "I can't express vulnerability, I think, over time, you know..." (Flea, 14:51)
• On Trauma and Healing:
  "I've been lucky to have vehicles to express it, like, as a musician...like, through some form of bizarre alchemy, turn it into something that brings joy, which is cool." (Flea, 32:19)
• On Hair and Identity:
  "I just wanted it to be like this perfect helmet of featheredness..." (Flea, 47:13)
• On Band Dynamics:
  "I was really. It was beautiful being a bandleader...they were all so loving and supportive and bought something to the equation that I couldn't have done by myself." (Flea, 83:34)
• On Relationship Vulnerability:
  "'I feel so honored that you feel safe enough to do that to me, because I know that means so much. You love me.'" (Friend to Flea, 80:26)

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Timestamps for Major Segments

• Clothing & Memory – 00:49–04:21
• Music, Artistic Generosity – 05:41–14:04
• Childhood, Masculinity, Family – 14:04–29:02
• Trauma, Anger, Creativity – 29:02–39:04
• Fashion, Hair, Persona – 44:59–54:06
• Anger, Compassion, Self-Knowledge – 55:09–60:43
• Friendship, Individuality, Fashion Discovery – 61:14–74:32
• Attraction, Style, Self – 67:49–78:04
• Vulnerability & Relationship Wisdom – 78:28–82:58
• Leadership, Creative Risk – 82:59–87:06
• Closing Reflections, Orange Socks – 87:06–90:05

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Episode Tone & Closing Thoughts

Bella Freud’s patient, insightful questioning and Flea’s raw, honest storytelling generate a rich, emotionally expansive dialogue. The episode stands as a tribute to resilience, creative freedom, the importance of chosen family, and the subtle, powerful ways that style, art, and personal history shape who we become—inside and out. Flea emerges not only as a musical icon but as a warm, complex, and evolving human being, deeply engaged in self-understanding and generosity.

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For more: fashionneurosis.com | @fashioneurosis_bellafreud

Transcript

[A]

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[B]

Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis Flea.

[A]

Thank you for having me.

[B]

Bella, can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?

[A]

Well, as I told you earlier, I did have a pair of silk pink pajamas with big cocks on them and pot leaves and eyeballs and like all sort of offensive little graphics. And I kind of, I agonized for a few minutes over whether to wear this nice suit or the pink pajamas. And I opted for the suit just because it's what I put on first. But things could have gone another way. But I recently, while I was on tour, I went to this shop in Berlin that might be my favorite clothing shop on the planet. It's called Darklands. And I saw this suit and I got it and I really love it. I was staying at my friend's place in France and he tried to steal it. It got delivered to his house because they didn't have one in my size. And I was calling out, I was like, my suit hasn't come. My suit hasn't come. And he said it was delivered to the house five days ago. And I said, well, it's not here. No one has it. And it turns out he had put it in his closet and wasn't saying a word. But I found it retrieved, my suit repaired my friendship, and I'm proudly wearing it today. I can't remember the name of the designer. I know that it is two guys that are either in Finland or Norway and it's just the two of them that do the whole thing. And they hand make these suits.

[B]

God, really.

[A]

And I really like, you know, the nature of fabric, the nature of feeling someone's hand and energy and thought and doing something feels so good to me. And so I put it on and it feels good. And it actually has some. They drew on the inside for me on it. They drew a motorcycle and they drew some lyrics from one of the songs off my Honora album.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And that was so sweet. I can show it to you if you want, but then I have to get up and destroy the whole thing.

[B]

Oh, maybe.

[A]

Maybe later.

[B]

Yeah, I'd love to See, because it's. Those things are so precious and they kind of give further intensity to the outfit. And sometimes if I go to a concert and have one of those backstage stickers, I stick them inside my jacket and I've got a few different ones in different jackets and they feel like old. Well, it's like a memory embedded. I really like that.

[A]

That's nice. Especially if it's a meaningful concept. Will you do it before the show and just leave it in there? Or does the show have to touch you in order to have that picture on it?

[B]

No, it goes in and then it's there. Cause I can never get it off. But.

[A]

Yeah, I know, but the thing is, do you put it in before the show or after?

[B]

Oh, before, before.

[A]

So it might be a bad show when you have it stuck in there.

[B]

I mean, in a way it's never a bad show. I don't think I've ever a gig that I haven't got something from. I really get a lot from a light. I love going to gigs. Sometimes I'll go on my own even. But that's nice.

[A]

Yeah, I feel like that with all music. Like I even learn from. I mean, there's some music that's just drastically offensive to me with its banality and I can't. Like, banality is a thing that really. I just. Sometimes it makes my skin crawl. But most of the time. And even that music. Cause just the fact, the very fact that it makes my skin crawl guides me in a positive way and makes me feel like I care. It's almost like grief being proportionate to love, you know? But even in like, you know, corporate formulaic music, there's always something to learn.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I know. I find there's not much. I don't know if I don't. Maybe trance doesn't really resonate with any bit of me, but possibly. There's always something lurking around in there to.

[A]

There's always something. There's always something. I feel like there's this great interview with Thelonious Monk and the interviewer asks him what music does he like? And he says he likes all music. And the interviewer says, even country music. And Thelonious Monk says, what part of what I said did you not understand?

[B]

Exactly. I know, yeah. Cause you're a six times Grammy award winning artist.

[A]

Six.

[B]

Is it more?

[A]

No, I didn't know. I didn't know. I had no idea I got that many.

[B]

According to what I looked up, you're the bass player in the Red Hot Chili Peppers and your New album, Honora. You play the trumpet and you have guest spots from Nick Cave and Tom Yorke, and you're much loved in the music fraternity, and you're generous in your musical collaborations. And I wondered how you came to choose those particular singers to collaborate with on this record.

[A]

Well, first of all, let me say that. I mean, I try to be generous as a musician, but I really feel like musicians are generous with me sometimes. I feel like through my careers playing music and my life of playing music, like people have just given me so much and included me and made me feel like almost. Sometimes I feel like I'm pulling the wool over people's eyes. I try so hard to be good, but I always just feel like I'm a student and everyone else is a master, you know? But in this particular case, with Nick Cave singing on the song Wichita Lineman with me. I've been a fan of Nick for so long, from the birthday party and every iteration of the Bad Seeds to anything that he does. All the stuff he does with Warren.

[B]

Mm.

[A]

Who also plays on my honor record.

[B]

Really?

[A]

Yeah, I missed that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I. You know, he's been someone that I've admired for so long. And then, you know, we know each other briefly through our friend Thomas Housigo.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

Who's, you know, one of my closest friends in the world. And I was kind of nervous to ask Nick if he would sing on my song. And the reason that I asked him is because in one of the few conversations that I've had with Nick, he spoke about his admiration for Jimmy Webb. And I also love Jimmy Webb. And Jimmy Webb is the songwriter who wrote the Wichita Lineman. Oh, really? And I had no intention to have any singer on it. I just wanted to do it as an instrumental piece. Cause I just love the song. And I did it. And I was listening back to it, and I just. Nick just kept flashing into my head and I thought I should ask him. And I was scared to ask him. I didn't want him, you know what I mean? I didn't want to put him on the spot or it just to be uncomfortable in any way. But my wife encouraged me, and I sent it to Susie, actually, who got it to Nick. And he responded within a half hour of me sending to him and said, yes, he wanted to do it and that the song meant so much to him that he was a little intimidated to do it, but that he loved the track and would want to do it and that he was leaving on tour in a couple of days and would try to get into studio the next day. I just couldn't believe it that he responded in that manner. And a day or two later, I get this vocal in my email of him singing on it. Cause, you know, I'm in LA and sent the track to him in the uk and he does it and it was just. I listened to it and immediately wept.

[B]

Yeah, it is.

[A]

I mean, I'm wept by just the beauty of his vocal, but also his generosity in doing it and doing that for my record. And, you know, we FaceTimed right away afterwards and it was. It was just beautiful, you know, to connect with him. He's someone for me who. One of the rare musicians and one of the rare vocalists, you know, and songwriters who just always gets down to the core truth of the essence of the matter of the thing, whether it's a terrifying narrative, like something off murder ballads or something. Or something really beautiful, you know, one of his beautiful love songs.

[B]

It is the most beautiful song. It's just. It sort of drags at your heart in this kind of all of good and all the goodness of sadness and the beauty of sadness and.

[A]

Yeah, like, the beauty of, like.

[B]

It's just amazing.

[A]

The yearning itself, like the human desire to transcend loneliness and suffering and find that. Find love, you know, and this guy up in telephone wires hearing love crackling through the wires.

[B]

There's a line in one of his songs, which I think it's called Are youe the One I've Been Waiting For. And it says something about coming up my heartstrings or something about. And you feel it flowing up through your veins. And the way you. The way that song is, the way you play and the way he sings, it's just so consuming in this gentle and heavenly way. And in fact, I saw Susie yesterday, and I was that one. I saw Susie Cave yesterday because it was my godson, her son Earl's birthday, and I was saying how much I loved it. And she said that you'd contacted her and she said, normally, you know, I think I was in the other room and I rushed to Nick and said, there's a message from Flea. So it was so lovely to hear.

[A]

Wow, that's so awesome that she. That, you know. Cause I didn't. I didn't want to put anyone on the spot. And I just know them a little bit, you know, from brief exchanges.

[B]

It seems the feeling's there on all sides and then it's captured now in this song, which is.

[A]

Yeah, it's so nice. It's just that feeling of you Know when you try to make music that doesn't. Not as a means to an end.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, not to achieve anything or just beyond achieve anything beyond the process of giving you, surrendering your thing over to this incredible energy, you know, and try to make something beautiful and you are joined with someone who you feel does the same thing and you connect in a meaningful way from different continents.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

It's really fulfilling. And you know, it's the thing about, I guess one of the things that I love about what Nick did on that and what he does always, it just never feels like he's selling me anything. You know what I mean? He's not putting together this like cool, perfect package to. You know what I mean? He's just fucking doing it.

[B]

Yeah. It's like a blood transfusion. It just fills you up with more.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

It's incredible.

[A]

Yeah. For him to, you know. I recorded the track, listened to it and was just loving the rhythm of it. And it occurred to me that that would be a rhythm that he would love. And I was like, ah, maybe Tom would want to sing on this. And sent it to him and he said yes. And he did it and you know, just makes me happy. And then he was, he wanted to do it live. And that made me even happier. And you know, I just live for that connection. I live for it. There's so much love in it. And when I, you know, it's like the love with my children, with my loved ones, with my wife, with my. The people that I'm close to. I know that if I were lying on my deathbed right now and that was. These were the things that I would, you know, it would be the sum of what really meant everything to me in life.

[B]

Yeah. Because in your memoir, Acid for the Children, which is about your childhood and you described your father as a very strict, a hard drinking, occasionally mean spirited man. And you write about a memory of your father not wanting to kiss you, age 6, and how this influenced your wanting to rebel about restrictive ideas of masculinity. And this is such a courageous response to, to a humiliating experience. And where does your courage come from?

[A]

Wow, Bella, that's so funny. I thought about that yesterday.

[B]

Really?

[A]

I was kissing my son.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, I have a three year old boy and I hope when he's, you know, if I'm still alive when he's 40, I hope I'm still kissing him and he's kissing me. And I remember that moment. So I mean, clearly enough that I wrote about it because it was just I loved kissing my dad and going to kiss him and him saying, you're too old to kiss me now. Thinking like, what the fuck does that mean? Yeah, and then realizing what he meant. Like, you're a boy and boys don't kiss boys. Where does my courage come from to. I can't express vulnerability, I think, over time, you know, like growing up. I'm not sure if I really articulated this in my book or not, but I think, like, you know, coming into being a teenager and coming into sexuality and then dealing with all that stuff that is awkward for a young boy. Puberty, and all of a sudden it's time for girls. And I was like, little and shy and a loner and kind of weird. And I. You know, I mean, I think about being in that time as a teenage boy and how important it was for everybody to be, like, cool and in with the cool kids and to be accepted and to be part of this. You know what I mean? Like, this culture of being tough and cool and girls liked you. That was so far away from my reality that I would ever be part of that group or be considered cool or sexy or any of that, that I never even. I just went my own way. And I think that I'm so used to going my own way and being my own self. And sure, I made a blundering fool of myself many times with misguided ideas about sexuality or machoism or any of it. But from a young age, I've always gone my own way and done my own thing. And I've definitely, in a search to belong and to have some sense of family or camaraderie, have gone the wrong way many times and been a fool or been insensitive. But in general, when I look at my life, I'm really proud of myself for being able to be myself.

[B]

Yeah, that's really comes across so. I mean, it's so impressive and especially thinking of you as that little, you know, being held at a distance by your father, who you admired. And it's, you know, that you kind of took it. You. You weren't. All through your book, the thing that resonated so much for me was how you were never crushed and you just had this resilience which has served you so well. I mean, it's so impressive and it's very inspiring. Cause. And you talked about your mother. When she left your father for Walter Urban Jr. Your life changed drastically from ordered in an almost military way, to complete neglect. And your mother seems like a distant figure in all this. And how did you reconcile her allegiance to these two men at the expense of. Of you and your sister and her mothering of you?

[A]

I think as a child, it was just the way things were. You know, my father left when I was 6 or 7 and this new guy came into the picture. And my father was, you know, mean spirited and alcoholic and had beautiful parts about him too, like. And I like to think that I got from him some great things, you know, work ethic and a love for nature being the big things that are kind of pillars of who I am and which I share with my father. And then my stepdad came into the picture who was, you know, a heroin addict and an alcoholic and a drug addict and abusive and violent and emotionally unstable. And, you know, police would come to the house and he would have these violent outbursts that were absolutely terrifying. And my mother, you know, co signed both of these guys and invited them into our lives. And she suffered greatly in her situation. And as a kid, you know, it was just the way life was. I didn't know that there was any other option or that things were different. I do remember thinking at a time like there were families because I liked the way that my life was as painful as it was, because I like, even with my stepdad, I really loved the music. He was a jazz musician, you know, and I love the musician. And I just kind of associated that that's kind of what creativity was. And it was wild and unpredictable and scary, but also beautiful. And you kind of turned all this pain and anger and fear into art. And there was this thing that I saw in that and I didn't really realize the difficulties and the trauma that I was going through and how long it would take me to really reckon with it as a kid. I just, you know, it was just a reality that I knew. But in retrospect, and this retrospect has been around for a long time. It's not like it's just now or anything. I realize how my, you know, my mother's. The difficulties that she had and that she was searching to try to have, you know, love in her life and chose these really difficult, abusive men.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To be with and didn't know another way and like, how much trauma she must have had in her life in order to invite that into her life and to continually put her children through this situation. That was really traumatic. And I just feel compassion for her with that and as well as compassion for little me and my sister. Bella. My sister died three weeks ago.

[B]

Oh my God, I'm so sorry.

[A]

Thank You. And I feel so grateful that, you know, before I left, she died while I was on tour. But you know, we knew it was coming. And in a few weeks before I left to go on this tour that I just did, I was seeing her a lot and sitting with her on her deathbed. And we were able to really talk about that stuff. And I feel so grateful to have been able. Cause she's sort of, you know, the person we bore witness to our childhood. So we're the only ones, you know, you can describe it to other people, to your loved ones, to a shrink, to anyone. But you know, she's the one that understood. Like I understood what it was and I'm so grateful that I got to talk about it with her and to. I mean, you know, obviously we're different people and we both had different perspectives on what it was. And as much as it was difficult, I'm grateful for all of it, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And when you spoke, like to get back to, you know, you initiate your question throughout all of it, like I always saw so many beautiful things. Like I think in my book I talk about it as a light, that there was always this light there to follow. And no matter what it really was, you know, like I was always so blown away and in love with the things that I loved. Like, you know, the literature and the music and the film and the art and the basketball. Like these things that I love so much. That. And you know, and my friendships and the excitement that I felt of, you know, movement and being absorbed in the art and like, you know, since I was a little boy, I read so much, like just constantly and still every day. And when my sister passed, that was something that we shared together in particular literature. Like she was the most literate person I ever met. And from when, as soon as I can remember ever being able to read, it was the thing that we were so excited about. And I think about during the times when my father left and we moved in with this guy, you know, he went from this like nice house in the suburbs to living in this drug addicts who lived with his. In his parents basement and we moved into this basement and. But I remember what I remember about the basement isn't that, oh my God, we're in this basement. And it's so weird. I remember my sister like running into the room and saying, Charlie got the golden ticket. He got the golden ticket, you know, and thinking like, oh my God, I can't wait to read this. You know, Charlie and the Chocolate Factory and you know, reading Roald Dahl and being like, ah, you know, he got the golden ticket. The golden ticket is in this world, and it's there for us.

[B]

God, that's such a wonderful thing to share and to have this ally. Cause my sis, I have a younger sister, Esther, and we have a real closeness. And she used to tell me stories, and she kind of grounded me in sort of some sense of normality. And I'm always grateful, so grateful to her for that. And that witness as well. Like you said, not having the same perspective or necessarily the same experience, but this person who doesn't deny what happened, and that's such an important bit to help you recover from. And you seem to have this amazing resilience. And, you know, whenever I kind of notice that in someone, I think, well, something. Something good must have taken place. Someone must have shown. Shone a light to say, I. I can see what's going on, even if they can't help you. And, yeah, a sibling is.

[A]

I think it's like, I don't know, like, everyone. You know, that was painful. Like, you know, the parent, obviously, when you're a kid, parents are like gods to you. And even though, you know, they were dysfunctional and very difficult, and by all, like, all the markers that you give, like, they completely blew it. Yeah, there was so much beauty there, too. Like, I remember my dad, like, just taking me fishing and looking out at the water and the smell in the morning, you know, when you get up before the sun rises. Cause you have to get up early to go fishing. And the excitement of it, like, the things that were positive were just so wildly positive that I always. They were always, you know, that overshadowed the difficulties. Like I always said, yeah, it's difficult. But, you know, and, like, with my steps, like, yeah, he was terrifying. I used to sleep in the backyard. I was scared to sleep in the house because of what might happen, because he was so crazy. But, you know, his jazz record collection was so great. And we played with other musicians in the room, and I would hear that music. It was just like, this stuff is. God, and it's real and it's there, and it's still the same things that, you know, I mean, I'm lucky now, like, you know, and I. It's hard for me, like, not having. I don't know how it is for you, you know, or what, the way that you grew up really. But, you know, when you're not shown what a healthy relationship is, it's hard, you know. And I'm married now. We've been together about Eight years. And before that I'd been in five. Five year long relationships. And then my pattern kind of repeated, you know, and I've like, kind of broken through that. But still, it's hard, these things, you know, the legacy that you grow up with, having to grow up when you didn't grow up at the time that you were supposed to.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, you kind of need someone to guide you through this transition. And the other day, like, I got. I was furious about something. My wife's like, looking at me and going like, dude, like this anger that you're expressing, it's not about me. And I sit there, I'm like, fuck, she's right. You know, And I, you know, it's like I'm still processing all that stuff and trying to learn because the way I grew up is like, you fly into a rage and you start breaking shit. That's how you deal with it. Like the cops get called.

[B]

Yeah, it sounded so heavy. Cause you said, I grew up being terrified of my parents, particularly my father figures, and it caused me a lot of trouble in later life. And how did it replicate itself?

[A]

Yeah, I mean, for me, how did it replicate itself? I think like, fight or flight. You know, I've always struggled with, Like, having a rage inside and having, you know, just not knowing how to deal with it, you know, Like, I either, I'm like, okay, so this is bad. So I'm out of here because this relationship is crazy. And then, you know, coming crawling back like, oh, don't leave me. You know, instead of being able to, like, healthily deal with, you know, the inevitable challenges of, you know, disagreements and stuff when you're intimate with somebody. And I guess, you know, that's. I didn't know how to do that because you kind of. You don't see it. You don't learn how to do it. And I think that's how it's manifested itself with me. And. Yeah, that's the best way I can put it. You know, it's just not knowing how and like, learning. And I'm 63 years old and I'm still working really hard on learning those skills, on, like, learning to, like, one, have healthy boundaries, two, be able to talk about things that are difficult without it turning into an argument or getting mad. And three, you know, not getting down on myself. Like, not being a victim, you know, not. Or being a bully, you know. Cause it's easy. Those things are easy. You know, it's so easy to be angry.

[B]

It's interesting, you Saying, being a victim or a bully. Cause they're the same thing, aren't they? They're just different sides of the coin, a kind of another way of controlling someone. But it's really hard to.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. And it's so. It's like such a. Even though it's a place of suffering, it's a place that if that's your tendency, it's something you understand. And so you go to this thing that you understand, even though it's a miserable place to be.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And to try to, like, grow into a healthier thing where you deal with things and resolve them or realize that they're not resolvable because you stand in such different places is difficult. But it's a place of peace and love and growth. And it's a. You know, it's a lifetime work for me. It's the work of my lifetime.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Yeah. And I've. You know, I've been lucky to have vehicles to express it, like, as a musician, to be in a situation where I can really, like, express the anger within me through music. And, you know, it's like, through some form of bizarre alchemy, turn it into something that brings joy, which is cool.

[B]

You describe it so well in your book about your stepfather's, you know, his crazy rages and his, you know, violent, destructive outbursts, and then his. His music playing where you're completely transfixed. And he has all these guitars, but he won't let you play them either. And I want. How did you. How did you manage. How did you deal with his sort of contradictory parenting that he. Cause it's so striking the way sometimes he's the most wonderful father. He's really encouraging. And then he absolutely won't let you do anything more. He won't take you to the next step.

[A]

Yeah. It's funny, like, when I. When I look back at it, at my relationship with my stepdad, and, like, when I saw him play as a young boy, I was blown away, Bella. Like, when the first time all these jazz musicians come over, they set up, you know, it's just, you know, saxophones, trumpets, piano drums, playing the upright bass, and they start playing this bebop music, this, you know, this jazz music, this black American music that is so. Works. It's so physical, and it's so cerebral, and it's so spiritual and it's violent and it's beautiful, and it's poetic and it's angry and it's everything. And I'm just. As a kid, I'm taking it all in and I can't believe it. I'm rolling on the floor and laughing. It's just like, literally transforming me. And worlds and portals are opening up to things I never knew were possible. And I loved it so much. And I look back at myself, like, how I must have been so excited. But he never, ever once gave me a lesson, or. I mean, that was the lesson that I sought, you know, and it made me completely like. I mean, I'm so grateful that I saw it. And I, you know, listened to the records and stuff, but. And it. And it made me go into career in music, but it also made me like, fuck you. You know what I mean? I think, like. And I just kind of, like, started looking down on him uncreatively. Like, I remember, like, hearing him practice and he'd pick up his bass and he'd do this thing. He'd go boom, boom, boom, boom, ba da doom boom. Like this riff he'd always start with. And I'd think. And always plays the same stupid fucking thing. I'll never do that. You know, every time he picks it up, I hear that same fucking stupid riff. What's she doing? She's in a creative malaise. I love that. But then I wanted to just go play punk rock, you know, like, to rebel against it. And in a way, I kind of. Because of my, like, abandoning of him and his thing I went into, you know, I abandoned all this, like, kind of teaching that I could have gone into. But also, it was just because I was with my friends, I wanted to play rock music. And next thing you know, I was in a van traveling around the country, you know, sleeping in a van and playing clubs. And, you know, started in my life as a rock musician. And as soon as I started playing rock music, he just looked down his nose at it as this, you know, like, just bullshit, you know, it was. Just had nothing to do with music. It was about clothes and haircuts, and he just kind of sneered at it. And that was that sort of jazz elitism that I grew up with that made me go in the opposite direction, which is cop out too.

[B]

It's kind of a useful device in a way, even though it's not the ideal way to manifest it, but that you were able to kind of become your own person, even though, you know it's not.

[A]

I mean, I think through all the lack of parenting that I had. And from a young age, I was in the street running wild, doing dumb crimes and all this shit, like, it made me be myself and it made me Like, I don't think like, you know, when Anthony and I found each other and we became best friends when we were 15, I think if, you know. And he came from a pretty dysfunctional situation too. I mean, I can't speak for him, you know, but I think had we had these perfect cozy home lives where home was a sanctuary and all the things you would hope for a child, I don't know if we would have been able to like, oh, this is really important. Like we're going to make this band and we're going to do it like, because it wasn't like we didn't have any other choice. It wasn't like, oh, I'm going to go into my parents business or they've showed me all these other beautiful things that I can do. It was like, there is no, like, it's like Hansel and Gretel. We didn't leave any breadcrumbs and I fell back home. It wasn't like, oh, well, if it doesn't work out, I'll be a realtor, own a liquor store, you know, go be an accountant. It was, there was no other thing, you know, but to get back what I was gonna say earlier when you asked, like, I just think about like with my kids, you know, I'm so proud of my kids. My two daughters are both like really dedicated to the work that they do and they're passionate and disciplined and they love the things that they do. And I think about my little boy now, my three year old boy and how excited he is. Like when I play bass or trumpet, he just wants to touch it and strum the strings and do the things I think, like, oh my God, I can't wait to show him if he's still, you know, like. And it's really. When I think back of like when I was little and I was so thrilled about what he was doing and in love with him and in love with the music and in love with it. And I was just open that he didn't start teaching me. That seems when I look back at that, that seems crazy.

[B]

Like, what was he thinking?

[A]

Like, just like the joy of being able to do it. To connect with a little kid and teach him this stuff, you know, these. Cause it's magic, these magic rules. Like here's this magic vehicle that you can drive for the rest of your life, full of infinite possibility. And here's someone who's completely open to it and a little kid, like a cute little kid. Like it's shocking to me that he didn't And I kind of don't really know why, because he must have been really occupied with his own pain and his, like. I think it must have been really difficult for him to wake up in the morning and go through his day.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

That he didn't want that kind of joy in it.

[B]

It's a real crisis of morale, isn't it? It's to. Not. Because when I was reading, I was almost inventing the next sentence, which is, he then gave me a guitar and that just never happened.

[A]

Never happened. Not only that, but never. Like I actually started playing the bass. And he was a bass player.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And he never even said, like, this is a D string. This is an A string.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

If you put these notes together, this happens. Or here's this little thing. If you work on it, it'll show you. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like never once.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I. That's crazy to me. You know, he just like looked down at what I was doing and was like, well, that's shit what you're doing.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, c' est la vie, you

[B]

know, because what's your introvert extrovert ratio? Because you're. You're so thoughtful and outgoing mixed with a real shyness that comes through under the talent and elegance that you have. And I wondered how that had influenced how you dress, how you show yourself.

[A]

Well, I. Well, thanks for the kind words. I think, you know, as time goes by, I mean, growing up, I was always. And still, I mean, I'm much better at it now than I used to be, but incredibly shy and insecure and nervous around other human beings unless they were, you know, the ones that were close to me and we had established that we were friends and didn't know, you know, what to say or. Especially like when he got into like teenagerness and you know, like with girls and stuff. But always, even now, you know, I'll be in a situation and I don't know what to say or what to do or how to be. But as time has gone by, like all through that time, I was always working. I mean, outside of the time when I was like a drug taking lunatic. But even then, always sort of developing my interior self in conscious and unconscious ways by doing things that I loved and that took me out of myself.

[B]

So

[A]

whenever I could break through the, like, social niceties and things that you do, like if you're at a nightclub or you're at a party or you're at a, you know, just a place where people have small talk or whatever, like, I feel so uncomfortable. But when I can get, you know, engage with someone in a more meaningful way and I can feel like I can trust somebody to. In that situation and that they're trusting me, then I'm, then I love connecting and talking and I don't. And I feel completely extroverted. And I think like what people see as extroverted in me is oftentimes, I guess, because the way that I am on stage or the way that I am as an entertainer, you know. Cause I have a lot to express and I express myself, you know, physically and musically and in terms of the way I present myself to the world, just always like go for stuff that I like and it's pretty wildly different.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I don't have a particular style that I love. Like I said today, it could have been the suit or the pink cock pajamas, because I love both of those things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And I like. But just when I see something that's beautiful, like if I go shopping, for instance, and the person asks me, like, what do you like? What kind of. I'm like, I like things that I like. You know, I don't, it's not like, you know, sometimes I'll find like as I learn about clothes more that there'll be a particular, particular designer that I like and I'm like, oh, I usually oftentimes like things that this person makes. But in general I can see like from kind of any genre of fashion. Is fashion. Does it come in genres?

[B]

I suppose it can do. It can come any, any form, can't it?

[A]

Yeah, like any form. Like streetwear or like fancy things or things from any era. I will. If I like something and it looks beautiful to me, I'll like it. That's it. And I don't know, like, something just feels good to me. The way it feels on my skin or the way it hangs on my body or when I touch it or. And it's really wildly all over the place. Hi, I'm Nicole Phelps, global fashion news and features director at Vogue and co host of the Run through podcast. Each week on the show, our listeners get an all access pass into the world of Vogue. On Tuesdays, join me as I interview influential designers like Calvin Klein, Rachel Scott and Simone Bellotti. On Thursdays, join Chloe Mel, head of editorial content at Vogue US and Choma Nadi, British Vogue's head of editorial content as they explore fashion through the lens of culture with guests like Doja Cat and Margot Robbie. Listen and watch the run through with Vogue wherever you get your podcasts and Vogue's YouTube channel.

[B]

Because hair's been a big feature in your identity. And I wondered what the first hairstyle you consciously adopted was.

[A]

Yeah, God, that's a good question. Trying to think. Well, I think the first time, like, when I really thought about when I was a kid, I just wanted to have long hair because I liked the beast. I grew up in the 60s, but that changed when I was walking down the street one day with my friend and we saw a van load of hippies going by. And you know, they're like this hippie Volkswagen van with peace signs on it. And they're all there with the long hair. And we were so excited to see them cause they looked so wild. And we were like, hippies. Yeah, and we're like 7 years old or something. And they pulled over the car and they're like, you fuckers, we'll kill you. And we were terr. Like, there was like. It must have been like Manson and his fucking girls. And they pulled over, screeched over, screaming, yelling bloody murder and coming after us. And, man, I ran like a fucking dickens out of there. And then another time after that, there was this place, and I wrote about this in my book. There was this place near where I lived in New York called the Duck Pond. And the Duck Pond was great. It was where I'd go with my friends and we'd walk around a pond and try to catch turtles or frogs or, you know, it was a place to go. And there was this one kind of older hippie kid who was real cool and long hair and bell bottoms. And we're sitting down and I was like, I don't know, I must have been six, seven, something like that. I can't remember. Maybe a little older. And he was like, man, like, what do you believe in? And I was like, I don't know, like, what? And he was like, well, what do you believe in? Like, you know, like love or peace or I can't remember what. Like, you know, like. And I was like, you know, I was like, well, like, love. And I think. And you know, and he was like, ugh, you don't even know. And I was like, what an asshole. Like, you're putting me on the spot. Like, you know, like, he was just like lording his, like, great hippie knowledge over a great wizard, you know, And I just thought, like, why? You're an asshole. Like, I believe that you're an asshole is what I believe. And it kind of soured me on the hippie thing. So as a kid, I wanted to have long hair. But then what I remember I moved to LA when I was 11 and all the kids and that was so great, like to go to. I was in Hollywood and to go to public school then. It's not the Hollywood that you think of. For all of you who didn't grow up in 70s working class Hollywood, it's not the show business Hollywood that one would imagine. Working class Hollywood was, you know, very ethnically mixed, which was great. It was like, you know, maybe 30% white, 30% black, Mexican, Russian, Asian, from every different economic bracket. And it was like 70s. And what I really remember is my hair was like shoulder length. And I had a brush and I was constantly brushing it back. I had it parted in the middle. I just worked it, you know, I was always brushing it to create this perfect sort of what they called feathered hair, kind of flowed back like that. And I just wanted it to be like this perfect helmet of featheredness. And I had my brush and like the brush was a fashion accessory too. So it was always showing in my back pocket. I was always putting it back. And my favorite basketball player, Norm Nixon, had this gold chain that he wore all the time. And I still am working it, you know, my Norm Nixon gold chain, even though I don't have the feathered hair. And so that was like I was. That's the first time I can remember being very conscious of my hair and wanting it to be just right. Just right. And then I got into high school and then I, you know, I started playing bass. Enjoy my real rock band. And everyone, you know, wanted to look like they were in Queen.

[B]

Oh, wow.

[A]

You know, or, you know, long hair. And so, you know, my friend Hillel asked me to play bass and join his rock band. And they had, you know, long curly hair. Like you were like, you know, like, I don't know what that look like, how to call it. It's like you're a page boy in the royal court of King George or something. You know, like this long hair. What does that look, Bella?

[B]

Yeah, the page boy. That bowlcot that passed.

[A]

Yeah, but it wasn't really bowl. It was long. It was like, you know, like Robert Plant or. There's nothing like hobbits and walls and

[B]

like the guy in the suite with that long, that margarine colored hair. That is like a strange wig, isn't it?

[A]

Yeah, it's long and curly and it's almost like sort of helmet, like.

[B]

Yes, yeah, yeah.

[A]

And so that was the beginning. It didn't last long for me, but I definitely wanted that you know, and I started playing bass and being a rock band, and I was, you know, and all of a sudden girls started liking me. And I had long hair and. And that hair butt. But real soon, it wasn't long before I realized the folly of my ways and I cut it all off and cut it real short. And I got a flat top.

[B]

Oh, yeah.

[A]

And then I was in the band and they all three had the long hair and I had the flat top. And I was pretty proud of myself with that. And then I was like, you know, and then I started dying it purple and blue and green and pink and having short hair and mohawks. Yeah, I love that LA punk scene and. Yeah. And I kind of, you know, worked various iterations of that style. And then throughout, I would let it grow a little bit. And when my hair grows out, it kind of gets like, you know, those flowers, what do they call you blow them and it all comes off.

[B]

Oh, the dandelion.

[A]

Yeah. It kind of looks like a dandelion, especially now that my hair is gray. It will really look like a dandelion as it gets bigger. Actually was kind of approaching dandelion just yesterday. And I walked into a French barbershop yesterday morning in a small town in the south of France and had it shaved off.

[B]

It's very good with the suit, this hair length, I think.

[A]

Thank you. Thank you.

[B]

You occasionally wear a mustache, and in fact, you're wearing one today, and I wondered what. What draws you to a moustache?

[A]

Well, first let me ask you, is my mustache crooked?

[B]

Seems perfect.

[A]

Is one side on one side bigger?

[B]

You've got a very good gap that creates a sort of symmetry.

[A]

Yeah, well, it's my trumpet playing mustache, so I created a space for my mouthpiece to go in the middle, my gold mouthpiece. And I don't, you know, it's just. I'm just doing it. I had occasionally done one and it's always kind of funny to me to have a mustache. But now that I'm playing the trumpet, seriously, it seems like a crucial part of the operation.

[B]

Yeah, it's such a particular thing, a mustache. And it seems very symbolic of masculinity and. But I like all the way you play with masculinity as you described, you know, when you were a child and you push back against the conventions of masculinity, and your moustache seems part of that playfulness. And the jazz history is so great, the way how people wore their hair as well. So you seem to be kind of continuing the tradition.

[A]

Yeah. I would like to honor the tradition and hopefully move in my own way with complete knowledge of the mustache tradition, of jazz and all mustache wearers, all the great mustaches, from Salvador Dali to those guys you see in the Guinness Book of World Records, to the suave pencil thin little mustaches from the 20s. I would like to honor the mustache. And I feel like I'm still growing with my mustache and learning from it and finding its place in this world. I'm helping it, I'm working with it

[B]

because I remember reading Anthony Kiedis memoir a long time ago, and there was this brilliant description of him being cruel to a kitten and not being able to stop himself. You experienced so much neglect and chaos in your childhood. And did you ever have the urge to act in a cruel way because it seemed a real. I mean, it was such a good description because I recognized this awful impulse that I remember having a pet rabbit who I adored, and then suddenly I couldn't look up. I just turned against myself and it and everything, and I just abandoned this creature. And it was very. It was such a good illustration of that. And I wondered whether you had experienced anything like this, this kind of acting against yourself.

[A]

Yeah, that's amazing. And you know, I've never read Anthony's book. I'm kind of scared to read it

[B]

and I shouldn't read it.

[A]

But. I'm trying to think. I think that. Oh, man, I'm really trying to think. I don't think I ever really did. I mean, there's definitely times when I've been thoughtless and cruel. Without doubt.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

But always, but never like that. Like it's always been like a mistake and then realized it was a mistake.

[B]

Um, it's interesting, you know, reading about, you know, when you were talking about anger earlier and how different. Well, I suppose, you know, when you were talking about anger, I was thinking, my anger just becomes this kind of dead stone that's locked around my ankles and takes me to the bottom of the river and it becomes this awful sadness. And I, you know, like a deadening. And sometimes anger seems quite refreshing as a concept. And then reading that description of being cruel to something that you don't want to be cruel to and is so, so, you know, unable to protect itself. And how there's something that's continuous in everything that I hear, heard you describe, which is a kind of a dedication, like a remorse that makes you examine yourself constantly and seems to be a real self preservation mechanism that seems to be hardwired into you and shows in your music. And everything you do. And it just really struck me that

[A]

I think just that my problem, I mean not saying, you know, I've often been unkind, you know, but my real acting out with anger has been against myself. I've like self flagellated to in a very destructive way.

[B]

Is that mostly through drugs?

[A]

Just like. No, there was that like for sure like acting out and doing drugs or putting myself in, you know, in situations that are unhealthy. But more like. Yeah, there's that for sure. Like you know, like shooting up dope when you're a teenager and smoking crack and doing all that stuff is destructive. And you know, it's bad, but it feels so good. But more like breaking my own heart.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And like say like being in a relationship and running away from the relationship and ruining it and then. Or acting in a way that makes it untenable for the person to stay with me, you know what I mean? Just being an asshole and which is, you know, cruel and then beating myself for acting that way. You know what I mean?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

In a way where I just feel so much self loathing and lack of any sort of self love or waking up like where I'm in horror of how I'm gonna feel because of how much pain I put on myself. Just like. And not being able. It's like when you say being cruel to a kitten and not being able to stop yourself. Like being cruel to yourself and not being able to stop yourself and feeling so much terror that I can't stop myself. And that's been the hardest stuff in my life to deal with.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So I think like. And it's something I've given some consideration to that people who deal with trauma, ptsd, whatever you want to call it, childhood trauma stuff that you can lash outwards or you can lash inwards.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

And I think people have tendency to do both and they're both kind of the same. It's like what you talked about, being a victim and a bully kind of being the same. They're both kind of the same thing. And I think only through real sitting with yourself and meditation and honesty and work, like doing work to deal with yourself and to see yourself in an honest way and to feel things without acting out. Like to sit and feel, you know, tremendous fear and anxiety and pain and self doubt and to just sit with those feelings, you can actually grow and get better.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And even though I know this is a lifetime work for me, I know that I like, I can see myself as I get older and sometimes you can kind of like look back at yourself and it's like looking at a slow motion or a time lapse photography or something. Like you can see that you've actually come some distance. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And so just try to consciously always stay on it, you know,

[B]

because you described yearning for the familial comfort and the structure of a loving family, which you weren't getting. And then you say, from the depths of brotherhood in my life came Anthony Kiedis, and he was the spark to light the fire. And what was it about him that drew you to him?

[A]

When I met Anthony, he was someone that was like me in a completely different way. And like I say, I think we both had a measure of childhood trauma. Even though I hesitate to speak for him because I really can't. But he was. I don't know, we were both just obviously really different than everybody else that we were dealing with. And we both had this incredible desire for adventure and to break free of everything around us. And, like, everything around us was just seemed like this structure that was set up to go be the same way as everybody else. And neither of us, like I talked earlier about, like, having no chance to be cool or to belong to the cool kids or to belong to any of that. And that all I wanted was to, you know, I knew that I could never be that. And I still know that I could never be that. And I just know that I have to be myself and do my work and be my own way. And I knew that he was the same. And when I first met him, like, right away we started, like, arguing, kind of fighting, but right away we just started talking for hours and hours. And. And when we became friends, it was like, let's go get into some wild shit today, whatever it is, you know, and we're both. Neither of us had, like, parents who were, like, setting up after school programs or anything to do beyond, like, just, you know, it was a place to sleep, you know, and get some food if we were lucky. And so it's just we were just drawn to each other and into getting into something wild. And things that I remember about Anthony when we were really young. And I'm not sure if I wrote about this in my book or not. I might have, but he. And we talk about fashion and stuff. I remember I didn't even give consideration to what I wore. There were things that I liked that I had. You have a favorite T shirt when you were a kid. But when I was a kid, we didn't have a lot of money, so it Was like, I got two shirts, two pairs of pants, some, you know, and that was it, you know, and a pair of shoes for. Until they wore out, you know, or your feet got too big. And so I had, like, you know, four combinations of. You know what I mean? I could wear this shirt with that. With the blue pants, with the white shirt or the white. You know? And when I remember, like, saying I had, like, my best one on, and I was like, this looks cool, right? One day, he was like, yeah, it looks fine. But anyone in school would wear that. Like, you should always wear stuff that no one else in school would wear or whatever it was. You know what I mean? And I remember it, like, struck me, like it was a big thing. It struck me like a ton of fucking bricks falling on my head. Like, he's fucking right. Like, why would I. Like, my mom took me shopping to the store where everybody goes, yeah. And then, like, since I was a kid, I always worked in some way or another. Like, I'd always be hustling money. I'd stand out in front of the supermarket and, you know, excuse me, ma', am, can I carry your groceries to the car for you, you know, or anything. I'd knock on people's doors, can I cut your grass? Anything to get, like, a little bit of money. And I started going to the secondhand stores and just buying weird shit, you know, and wearing it, and that was so great, you know? Or I'd wear my mother's clothes. I'd find my mother's, like, pink pantsuit and wear it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and. And finding my own way like that. And that was great. And I owe Anthony to that. Like, he awakened for me in that. And there's certain people in my life who did that for me in lots of ways. But for fashion, Anthony definitely did that for me.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

Like, I remember, like, my friend Pete Weiss. Like, I didn't. You know, he's someone who was like, you know, let's go to the movies. And I was like, okay. You know? You know what I mean? Whatever is popular. Let's go see it, you know? And he would say, well, actually, there's these Louis Benoit movies playing at the art house theater over on Beverly, and let's go. And I was like, what? What's that? And all of a sudden, like, my world opened to that.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You know, like, oh, my God, there's this whole world of people that are making art, not, you know what I mean, to sell corporate shit for me to go eat popcorn on Hollywood Boulevard. But there's all this stuff and it's amazing. And you know, people do these things, you know, and changes your life.

[B]

Yeah, it really does.

[A]

Yeah.

[B]

Yeah. I love. You mentioned.

[A]

Yeah, no, Anthony did that for me too. And it was. And when I say like lit a spark, it wasn't just, you know, the fashion, it was everything and how it related to music and he knew about rock music that I didn't know, you know what I mean? Like, I was a jazz nerd when I was a kid. Then Hillel turned me on to Jimi Hendrix and Led Zeppelin and, you know, this, like, you know, these great rock bands. And then Anthony was like, listen to this first Blondie album, you know, and Debbie Harry going, I'll give you some head and shoulders to lie on. And being like, oh, my God, she'll give me some head, you know what I mean? Like Debbie Harry. And she was, you know what I mean? Like, it was just like the fact that she would sing that and it like hitting with me, you know, and they look so cool. And then like, you know, I started meeting, you know, and then I started like meeting people in the punk rock community in la and I got in this movie called Suburbia and I joined this punk rock band called Fear. I took acid and saw Fear play and then joined their band and all this whole world opened, you know, Changed everything.

[B]

Yeah, because when you were at school, do you remember the clothes that you. That the girls were wearing that you were attracted to? And I wondered if that has changed much throughout your life, what kind of switches you on visually.

[A]

Yeah, well, when I was a kid, I was so like in high school, in junior high when it started, you know, there were like the pretty girls and the fashion in LA at that time with these like tightest jeans that you can imagine with, like, you know, they had like these like this flap with these gold buttons that kind of came up the crotch.

[B]

Yeah. Like sailor pants.

[A]

Yeah. But like so tight that you could see the openings of their pussies, you know what I mean? With the camel toe. Yes. And it was like you couldn't like. I was like, what? Like you couldn't like take your eyes off it, you know. And I was, you know, that was so, so, like. Like I was so intimidated and terrified and in awe. And then these, you know, these really flowing like silk blouses and, you know, it was just like we were just in the south of France and all the streets are called chemin this, chemin that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And there was this fashion called chemin du fur. Did you have that in the uk.

[B]

Yeah, yeah, I remember. Yeah, that note.

[A]

It was just like amazingly tight pants and these chemin defer, like silk shirts with no bra. And that was my first memory of sexuality and girls and that the cool kids were hanging out with these girls. And I knew they were having sex and they were taking Quaaludes and they were up to some shit. And I was just so far on the outside of it and shy and weird. And I couldn't. If a girl would talk to me, I couldn't even utter a word. I was so scared that I was supposed to live up to this thing that I didn't. You know what I mean? That I just couldn't do it. But that's the first fashion that I remember. And then when I got into, I guess, towards the end of 11th grade and a Hillel asked me to play bass and join a rock band, all of a sudden all these girls started talking to me. And it was still kind of that style. And that was when I first started having sexual relationships and stuff and. Just being so in awe and excited, but also like, oh, well, they like me cause I'm in a band and not. You know what I mean? Like, it took a while for me to actual have a real relationship, you know, like connecting with a person. Like, it was just like, oh, they like me cause I'm in a band. Cause that's literally what happened. Yeah, I mean, it wasn't. It was just like how it went. And all of a sudden it was like, where before I was scared to talk. They were like. It was like they didn't care. They would talk to me anyways. And it just. Everything changed. And so that was kind of a weird trip too. And I'm actually like, this is one of the first times, like, talking to you now that I'm kind of considering that and how I dealt with that. And then shortly after that, it was, you know, punk rock. And the girls that I loved, the way that they dressed, it was not a. It wasn't a revealing way of dressing at all, you know. And in particular, there was. And I started, you know, it was like when all of a sudden it became like girls that I really started liking. And it was a type that I liked. And I still am attracted to this type of girl, I think. And, you know, and my wife is like that. Like, well, she's kind of different, but, like, I remember the first time I was in love with this girl. And it was like this punk girl who was like, violent and tough, and she dressed like she had this was, like, in 19. I don't know, 81, 82. Like, just that kind of after high school. And she was like this wild girl in the punk rock scene. She sang in this band called Twisted Roots, which had members of the Germs in it and the Screamers, which who were like, real important bands on LA punk rock scene. And she was like this teenage girl that Joe Spears sing, because she was just wild. And I went to see them play, and she was, like, insulting everybody in the audience. And she had, like, purple dreadlocks, and she dressed like Raggedy Ann, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And she was this wild girl, and she used to fight everybody, like, to be on the punk rock scene. Like, all the girls were scared of her, but they all tried to dress like her, and she would literally, like, just, like, beat people's ass. She was wild. Her name was Maggie and still is Maggie, and she's awesome. And. But it was this type of girl, really tough on the outside, you know? And then I got hired to be in this movie called Suburbia, and she was in it, and I was like. I couldn't even believe that I got to be in the same room as her, you know, And I was just like, the director just took. I joined this punk rock band, and director took a liking to me and asked me to be in this film. And then when I said bing, she got in. She started, like. She was really kind to me and thought that I had something started, like, giving me, like, I was just kind of an extra. But she started giving me all these lines and making me a character. And I just was, like, in awe of this girl and this real tough, you know, girl. And then. But then she started talking to me and started showing me this really tender, soft, loving thing that was protected by this fierce way of being in the world, you know, and that, to me was just like. I couldn't believe it, you know, And I think I've always. It was this, you know, this sense of self, this, like, toughness and this willingness, but a lot of it was, like, you know, to protect.

[B]

Yeah, yeah.

[A]

And she had grown up, you know, I. You know, I'm hesitant to speak about someone's own, you know, difficult childhood, but the way that she had found to survive in the world. And so I've always been sort of, I think, drawn to survivors.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You know, and I guess it's not always like that. To that extreme, like, that kind of, like, toughness and hardness, but people that make their own way in the world and, like, a Woman who makes her own way in the world and works hard and has this thing. And there's this. But there's this beauty, but they don't take any shit, you know.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

And yeah. Very drawn to that.

[B]

Such an interesting time that. Because growing up in the 70s and those very revealing clothes that I remember trying to, you know, I didn't have many clothes, but just this thing of these tight things that then attracted a certain look that was really hard to handle being, you know, like a young teenager, I bet. And then going to punk, which was like, how do I show that other side of my. You know. Because this is so, you know, spiky, literally. And then it was just a complete 360. And it's great listening to you to describe it. You know, how someone being prickly in their kind of demeanor and appearance can be so appealing and relaxing in a funny way. Cause there's something to sort of negotiate. It's like, how, how can I, you know, just get a bit closer and it's fun. And I wondered if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does that kill your attraction?

[A]

Yeah, it does. I mean, I must say that, like I've. But yeah, no, like the way someone dresses, It does show a thoughtfulness or a thoughtlessness or a sense of self that I feel. And I imagine that the way that I dress makes people feel certain ways towards me or not. You know what I mean? In positive or negative ways about me. But it's funny to say that.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

To really look at it. Cause I always feel like I just like people who. You know what I mean? Because I, you know, I like their soul man, you know. But like I was just now in the hotel lobby before I came over here and I'm staying at this fancy hotel here in London, you know, Rich People Hotel. And I started talking to this. I was waiting, you know, mix up with the car. And I'm waiting to start talking to this woman in the lobby. And she's kind of like, you know, middle aged, dressed very expensively in clothes that. You know what I mean? Where I just looked at her and I just see like square, you know. But I started talking to this woman and she was like really interesting and insightful and displayed some real sensitivity and caring about the thing we were talking about. And I was like, okay, you know, like maybe, you know, chill it with

[B]

the judgments, you know, there's nothing better than revising your judgment, is there? Because I love. I mean, I am quite judgmental and I like Having an immediate reaction to things, and then it's so thrilling. Much more thrilling to then find you got it wrong. And there's something rather good about whatever it was you were kind of denouncing.

[A]

Yeah. Or like, how much of it. Like, your judgments have to do with your defenses.

[B]

Yeah. Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, I'm not one of these people.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know what I mean? Like, I'm this place. Like, I'm not one of these, you know. Yeah. I'm my own self and so judging people and then. But sometimes you're really. Right.

[B]

Exactly.

[A]

Yeah. Oftentimes.

[B]

Keep that alive as well and not be afraid to be, you know, critical.

[A]

Yeah, yeah. No, and it's like you said earlier, like, about anger. Like, sometimes, like, you know, it can be so, like, kind of holding back. Like, I'm like, okay, don't be angry. Bit be calm. You know what I mean? And then something happens and you're just like, fuck it. And you let it out. You know what I mean? Like, unleash the beast. And it can really suck to do that. And I felt much shame afterwards from doing that. If I fly into a rage and start yelling or being insulting to somebody or, you know, it can be terrible. But also, sometimes, man, like, you gotta unleash the beast within, you know, and let it live. And I had this amazing thing happen a short while ago. I was doing. I do this therapy group with some friends. It's like a men's therapy group. And in the course of it, I was talking in, speaking, like, making myself vulnerable, speaking about some shit. And I got became furious at my friend in the group, and I screamed at him, fuck you, motherfucker. Fuck you. Yeah. I got really mad, you know? And I immediately, right after it, I felt like, oh, what did I do? Like, this is someone I love. And whenever I've done that to anybody, it damages the relationship. Like, I'm showing them this ugly part of myself, this angry part, you know? And my friend looked at me and he said, cry right now saying it, Bella. Because it was so generous and he meant it. He said, I feel so honored that you feel safe enough to do that to me, because I know that means so much. You love me.

[B]

Oh, God, that's incredible.

[A]

And it's like the most generous fucking thing anyone ever said to me in my life, you know? Cause it's like you. When you show somebody a part of yourself, it's not good. Like a rage. It's never helpful. Like, using your caring and your loving and something you care About. And you're angry about things because you see something you love being hurt or, you know, or yourself being hurt or betrayed in some way. But when someone. You can show them about yourself, and you're like, I know that you wouldn't do that. Someone you didn't care about because you. You know what I mean? You can't and risk.

[B]

Isn't it.

[A]

It's amazing. Like, it was really amazing to have happen.

[B]

God.

[A]

And yeah, so that's a thing too, you know, with anger, like you're showing yourself. And when you're in a relationship. I remember when I met my wife and right in the beginning, like, she's the kind of person who. She's the kind of person who. There's like, right on. She just asks questions. You know what I mean? I mean, you're doing it right now for the beginning of this thing. But it was like that. Like our very first date was like, let's go out to this party. I'm going to impress her because I know these band that's playing, she's going to think I'm cool, right? And so she comes over to my house. I'm like, you know, she opens the door and I'm like, oh, my God, I'm in love with this woman. And right away I'm saying, let's take a walk around my yard and have a talk. We have like half hour and right away the conversation goes, like beyond, like right into the depth. She's like, what's going on with you lately? And I'm like, well, am I gonna. You know, I tell her and it starts and she's, well, why did you say that? Or why are you doing that? Or why did that happen? And you know, right away, getting right underneath the stuff, you know, into the real thing, and I just start telling her everything. And it's like, everything means not all nice things.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, and it means truth. And you're looking at someone and telling them these things, and you know that they're listening and hearing it, and they're like, understanding that you're a human being and that you're not perfect and that you have shortcomings and confusion and pain. And you know, as well as all the joy and understanding and beautiful stuff. But, you know, I guess it's just like, that's what love is, you know?

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

So cool.

[B]

Because you come across as a great unifier and you're loved by band members and friends and does it feel different being a band leader? Does it feel the same? Do you feel the Same amount of freedom.

[A]

Or, like, when I'm doing my honor a band and being, like, the boss.

[B]

Yeah,

[A]

well, very freeing experience for me, making the record, playing the record, it. Because I didn't. I was prepared to kind of fail doing it.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

You know, because I wanted to play. I wanted to play trumpet when I was a kid. And I was like, okay, I'm bringing back up the trumpet. I'm gonna make this jazz record. And I was just, you know, I don't care if I fail. Like, I was sort of. You know, there's times when I was, like, really optimistic. This is gonna be so fun, and I'm just gonna make this trippy record. And there were times, like, God, I don't know if I can do this, like, if it'll be any good, and it'll be embarrassing, you know, to the other musicians, if I just suck, you know? And then I read this great Neil Young quote when he talked about how important it was to fail. Like, how failing was great because it means you're trying to do something, and if you don't. Aren't taking the risk of failing, you're not doing anything. You know, if you're just doing something, you know that it works. And so that was inspiring to me. And I. And going in to do it, you know, as a band leader is, you know, my vision. And I was really. It was beautiful being a bandleader. Like, I mean, I just got to work with great people. I picked the right people. I was fortunate in that. And they were all so loving and supportive and bought something to the equation that I couldn't have done by myself. So even though it was my thing and my music and my idea, I dealt with people, in particular my producer and kind of partner on it, Josh Johnson, who were just, you know, really thoughtful, sensitive, kind people. And I was scared to work with them, you know, because they're so good. They're great jazz musicians. And I think I had that thing from when I was a kid, and my stepdad was like, well, you don't know how to play jazz. It's nothing, what you did. And I remember once seeing him as an adult, like, before he died. One of the last times, it might be the last time I ever saw him, I said, you know, kind of doing this jazz stuff. And he, like, laughed, and I was fucking infuriated. It wasn't about this record. I would just say I was just like, I'm kind of working on jazz. And he just kind of, like, laughed. And it made me so mad, but it was still like, bringing up this stuff, you know, of like, growing up with this jazz elitist mentality that you're not doing shit. Cause you're playing rock music. And I thought that, you know, well, they're real jazz musicians, these people, but they weren't like that at all. They were so loving and just like, really gave their hearts to what I was doing in a real beautiful way that not only was like, you know, their virtuosity and their musicality, but just their love for being together and playing music with someone in a room. And the way that it made me feel was. It was just like this portal of a new world opening for me. And I feel now there's this whole other part of my life that has come that has so much possibility and opportunity for me to find ways to express myself. All the things that I know I have inside and a new form, you know, and it doesn't mean abandoning any old form and not being in a Chili Peppers or anything. It means a new form. It was like, when I made my book, it was being able to articulate things that I had always articulated in the abstract form of music, to do it literally. And it was the same thing I was doing, playing music, but it was being done with words and finding how to organize those thoughts and engage myself in a different way. But it's all the same shit.

[B]

Yeah, well, it really comes through. I mean, it's. It's the most beautiful album. I mean, I love it. I just love it. I fell for it as soon as I heard it. And also, it just seems to kind of encapsulate, you know, all the way through. You know, my experience of your life through reading about you and preparing to talk together today of you. You know, the way you sort of. You describe yourself as, like, not being the cool kid, but you are the cool kid because you bring this kind of. You create this center for everyone where it becomes so powerful. And you are the in. You're the generator of all this. And looking at photographs of you and your wife and how you feel, you just look so burstingly happy. And that seems so palpable and to come through. And, you know, it's an amazing thing to witness. You know, I've followed your career for a long time, and we've met briefly and a while ago and did this amazing thing together. And it just. It's. There are some people that make it possible for everyone to partake. And you seem to be one of those people. And it's really a beautiful thing. And it feels wonderful for me. And thank you so much for being on Fashion Neurosis and being so open and so inspiring is fantastic.

[A]

Thank you, Bella. It's so nice for you to say that, Steph, and I'm grateful to be here. And I hope everybody noticed my orange socks.

[B]

Yes, we did. We love the orange socks. They're like.

[A]

I got some pink ones, too. That made the guy that made the socks for the Pope.

[B]

For the Pope. Oh, really? Is that this?

[A]

These aren't from the Pope shop.

[B]

Oh. There's a special Vatican shop in Rome where you can buy everything purple.

[A]

Oh, wow.

[B]

It's really good. But, yeah, the orange sock seemed like, you know, to manifest part of your kind of spirit, your optimism and your joy of life.

[A]

When I think of orange, I always think of Jimi Hendrix has that song Bold as Love.

[B]

Oh, well.

[A]

And he says he kind of goes through colors and talks about how they relate to emotional states, and he goes, orange is young for the bold and the daring. Oh, yeah.

[B]

That's so lovely. I've never heard that.

[A]

It's a good song.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

I used to think it was a song I wanted to play at my funeral or make them play at my funeral, but I don't know what one now.

[B]

Yeah.

[A]

All right, well, thanks for having me.

[B]

Thank you so much. Flutes. It's been amazing.

[A]

All right. Awesome. Sam.