Bella Freud (2:40)

I'm glad you wear a jean with no stretch because I hate stretch.

Alexi Wasser (2:43)

Me too. It looks so cheap, doesn't it?

Bella Freud (2:46)

It feels horrific. I really don't like it. You're a writer and a filmmaker, and you've just released your first feature film called Messy, in which you also star. And I wondered why you decided to star in it, to act in it as well.

Alexi Wasser (3:02)

Oh, my goodness. Why did I decide to star in it? I decided to star in it. Yes. I did all those things. Thank you for doing all this research. I can't believe it. I don't know if I'm going to be your most anxious guest on this couch. I probably need the therapy the most. But why did I decide to star in it? Because it's a very personal story. I made it for $100,000. I had had all these other projects that never went that were more expensive. And then I thought, fuck this. Are we led a curse on the show? And I thought, I'm going to write my own indie movie. And that's what I. And I'm going to. It's like a puzzle to be solved. How can I make a feature film for $100,000? So I wrote this very kind of personal story about, you know, I refer to it as a neurotic sex ro based on my life, but heightened. So I decided to star in it because, you know, the character has her tits out a lot. And I thought, I don't want to do this to another actress, so I'm gonna. I'm gonna. I'm gonna do this. So it's me going on all these mortifying dates with my boobs out, having simulated sex, and finding myself in. Yeah. Embarrassing situations that may or may not have been based on real life.

Bella Freud (4:13)

So, I mean, I love the film so much. And I was at a fashion dinner, and I heard people talking between themselves about you. And then I asked. I heard some sort of trigger words of interest, and I asked about it, and they said, yeah, there's this girl. She's really cool. She's made this film. And I got your Instagram handle at the dinner, looked up the trailer and thought, oh, my, this is just brilliant. And it's really beautifully made and shot, and you did everything.

Alexi Wasser (4:49)

Oh, my God, Bella, you wrote it.

Bella Freud (4:52)

You directed it, and you're in it. And also, the rhythm of how you speak is so engaging and fun. And I wondered, when did that start? Your wild curiosity and your innocence about how you express yourself?

Alexi Wasser (5:09)

Oh, my God. I have a wild curiosity and innocence in the way I express myself.

Bella Freud (5:13)

Yes.

Alexi Wasser (5:14)

I love it. Oh, my God. Wait, by the way, what were the trigger words? What were the trigger words that the people said that made you like the thing. And then I'll answer your questions. I'll stop asking you questions.

Bella Freud (5:24)

Probably sexual rom com or.

Alexi Wasser (5:27)

Good. Okay, good. I mean, I don't know if I'm even going to answer this right, but I just feel like I. I'm not a chill person, as the kids say. I'm not a relaxed person. I'm, you know, I'm self conscious, I'm neurotic. I overthink everything. I experience a lot of internal suffering, especially when I'm dating or when I'm in love or when I'm trying to be in love. And I think, like, the whole. I think the whole thesis of the movie is about a girl who is the most uncomfortable and miserable when she's in love, and yet she can't stop looking for love, you know, so. And that's how I kind of live my life. So my coping mechanism is humor. And so I think, like, I wrote this movie, I don't even know if I'm answering the question correctly. I've always just written. Written makes writing makes me feel better. Writing helps me, like, work through all my turmoil. And I love framing any experience I go through. I like framing it where I'm the butt of the joke because it makes me laugh. Because I feel like when I'm in a mortifying, humiliating, disappointing situation, which I, you know, have experienced many a time dating and having sex and falling in love or throwing myself out into the world, the only way I can keep myself from, like, wanting to curl up and die or something is by, like, zooming outside of the situation and being like, oh, my God, I can't believe this happened. This is hilarious. How can I retell it to other people so that we all laugh about it? And then I'm laughing about it and I don't feel like, as gutted as I did immediately. So that's always just how I've been. Like, I've. Yeah, I've always been. That's just my coping mechanism. That's my favorite thing to do. And then my goal with what I write is to make people feel less alone, to make people laugh. And then for me to just be able to laugh about the whole thing and then also find my people, because I really like it. If I write a thing, or even having made this movie, if another person comes up to me and says, oh, my God, I went through the same thing. It's crazy. I go, oh, my God, I'm not alone. So I've made this person feel less alone. I feel less alone. I found my People who can relate. And then I realize we're all just suffering. I don't know.

Bella Freud (7:54)

You know, because you started a blog called Boy Crazy, in which you describe yourself as over sharing about all the things that you just mentioned. Relationships and uncomfortable dates and sexual experiences and. And what does oversharing mean to you?

Alexi Wasser (8:13)

Oh, my God. What does oversharing mean to me? I feel like, especially with the men I date or maybe the way people are brought up or how we're supposed to live our life. You're supposed to give the impression that everything's okay and that you're, you know, you're composed and everything's fine. And that is not how I live my life. So my way of like. So, yeah, oversharing is just like, God, I gotta stop it. Maybe I gotta stop on this podcast today or else I'm gonna reveal too much.

Bella Freud (8:52)

I mean, it's interesting because I think I'm the opposite. I'm like a withholding person. I go into a terrible panic, and I've always thought of myself that I could hold a burning coal without crying out or saying anything. It's like the idea of oversharing is so alarming, but in the end, it's the same. I'm as anxious as maybe what you think you are oversharing. I'm as anxious saying nothing because it's all going on inside me and I'm worrying whether I've said too much or too little and much better. Yeah, but, you know, that's been a sort of torment, the kind that you describe of feeling unbelievably.

Alexi Wasser (9:43)

You sound like the men I date. Right. But. But this is good, because maybe you like the movie because again, I can be the. The person, you know, the main character in this movie, in this first feature film I made. Or you can go, yeah, I don't say it all. I bottle it up. But that is exactly what I'm thinking. I'm worried about my stomach growling. I'm feeling devastated that the, you know, the. The guy isn't behaving or the. My love interest is not behaving the way I want him to, or. Or I'm being rejected, whatever. Like, yeah, I. My way of dealing with all that stuff, all the disappointment and the suffering and the like. Oh, why? Why aren't they behaving the way I want them to? Why aren't I not feeling fulfilled? Why am I. I go external with it and it all comes out of my mouth, which I really am trying to get a handle on. Because the funny thing is, or maybe it's not funny at all. But I attract withholding men and it's no accident because they like. It's like too. What is it, Yin and yang? I don't know. And it's. Yeah, I don't even know what the point of that is. But yeah, I attract. So I feel like I've got to meet. We're all trying to meet in the middle. The withholding people want to get out of their shell a bit. I'm trying to learn how to like, you know, not devour them alive. What'd you say? You know what I mean? Like we're supposed to. It's supposed to be a beautiful dance. You come together. That's. My old therapist said I should probably go back to seeing my therapist, but you know, this will be the step towards that.

Bella Freud (11:14)

But yeah, but one someone once told me that when I was learning about attachment.

Alexi Wasser (11:24)

Theory or something.

Bella Freud (11:25)

Yeah, attachment theories and the different styles. And she said a way of avoiding intimacy is to, you know, to be attract drawn to somebody who is an avoidant. And then you can be avoidant too because you're avoiding intimacy by going for something that isn't available. Which made me feel a tiny bit better at the time because the notion of being more avoidant is cooler right now. It seemed to have morphed into being more avoidant, which, I don't know, I.

Alexi Wasser (11:58)

Want to be more avoidant.

Bella Freud (12:00)

Yeah, I don't think I am either. I'm just less. I'm less anxious.

Alexi Wasser (12:04)

You're way cooler than me. Are we allowed to say you give me great dating advice, but that's for when the camera's not rolling. But whatever. Are we done?

Bella Freud (12:15)

Because one of the things I resonated with with Messi as her. Also her intermittent calls to daddy who never picks up. And your father was a photographer, Julian Wasser, who took some of the most amazing photographs of modern history, actually of contemporary figures, including the picture of naked Eve Babbitts playing chess with duchamp and Joan Didion leaning against the white Corvette. And I wondered, were you a daddy's girl? And what does that mean to you?

Alexi Wasser (12:50)

Oh my God, was I a daddy's girl? I think so. The funny thing is I think I'm. My dad passed away a couple years ago and now I'm in charge of his photo estate. And the weirdest thing is I'm dressing more and more like my dad because my dad used to wear high waisted black Levi's and a belt and like, like an Hermes belt and like gucci loafers and button down shirts. And most of the time I'm wearing like a button down shirt and the. Anyway, so it's funny that after he passed away, I'm like, dress exactly like my dad. So that's so weird. But was I a daddy's girl? I think I. What? Yeah, like up into a certain point I had a. Believe it or not, I had a complicated relationship with my dad. And yeah, I. I think I. I had an enmeshed relationship with my dad. I don't know what your relationship with your dad was like, none of my business. This is. But yeah, I was. He was like my best friend. And then I think I. When I hit like puberty and I had my own personality or I developed my own sense of self or wanted like freedom and independence, I think it was like, that's. Yeah, I had a bizarre relationship with my dad. It was interesting, but I'm so similar to him and I loved him. In what way? I am. I'm very opinionated. I am not relaxed. I'm not chill. I'm. Yeah, I'm just really specific.

Bella Freud (14:12)

And was he like that with you? Was he exacting of his expectation of you?

Alexi Wasser (14:18)

I think so. God, this feels out of control, this pod. Because I don't know where we're gonna go with this. Sorry. That's what happens. My inner monologue is my outer monologue. Oh my God, it's gotta stop. Okay. Yeah, he was really exacting with me, I think, like, you know, and yet he did right by me. Cause now I get to be in charge of his photo estate. And I'm learning more about him now that he's passed away and going through all of his. And that's a cool thing when a parent passes away and having to go through all of his storage stuff and his old journals and this, that and the other. And now I'm like getting to know my dad, you know, after he's passed away. And I love him so much. Even though he was a kooky character that was often difficult to be around, especially being his daughter because everything's so much heavier and more intense and wanting approval or why isn't he acting the way I want him to act? And blah, blah, blah. And now I'm like, whatever age I am, and I'm thinking, oh my God, he's gone. Who cares? Nobody gets a manual for how to be a parent. And if I met him at a bar, I'd probably think he was such a charming, funny, cool, interesting guy who was like, you know, who's completely politically incorrect and making wild jokes and stuff, so. Which is how I am. I don't know. I'm a loudmouth and opinionated and. Anyway. And I respect his work a lot, so I am a daddy. Scroll. As complicated as the relationship was.

Bella Freud (15:43)

And your mom was in a band called Precious Metal.

Alexi Wasser (15:45)

Oh, my God. My mom was in a band called Precious Metal and a band in the 70s called Promises. Yeah.

Bella Freud (15:54)

Because that was. Because there was a big age difference between them. And I wondered how they dressed.

Alexi Wasser (16:01)

Oh, how did they dress? That's so funny, because they would get in arguments about that. Oh, my God, Expose. My mom watching this. She's like, what are you doing? Tell. Tell no one. No, they're. Yeah, they're almost like. Like 25 years apart in age. And they're. They met on the Sunset Strip. I think they met on, like. I don't know where they met, like, the Roxy or the Whiskey or the Troubadour. Wherever they met. Troubadours on Santa Monica Boulevard. But anyway, yeah, they met. And I think my dad was outside drinking a gin and tonic, smoking a cigarette. And my mom walked up and I think he was like, look at this hot babe. I don't know, something about her big boobs or something. I don't know, whatever. He. And he made out with my mom and that's. And then it was on. And they were together for six years. And how did she dress? I think she. I think my dad wanted her to dress differently. He was probably turned on by the sexy, youthful, free way in which she dressed. But then I think he would give her grief for what she wore and wanted her to be more. I don't know. I gotta call my mom. I'm due for a phone call. I think he wanted her to dress more appropriately as he was trying to suck the life out of her and control her and their weird up relationship. But. Yeah. Yeah, but he would have suits made all the time and gabardine suits, and he'd go get them made and, you know, monogram shirts and just all very, like, classic. Whatever. And my mom was like, I think, like ripped fishnets and she made her own pants and.

Bella Freud (17:26)

Wow.

Alexi Wasser (17:27)

And I don't know, it's so funny. My mom, she'll, like. I'll give her clothes and then even to this day, and she'll, like, cut them or do something to them. And I'm like, how did you manage to turn this thing that I thought was chic that would serve you well and, like, you know, and then turn it into this Crazy thing that I never imagined it could be. And then I'm like, it makes her happy. But yeah, they dress differently because it.

Bella Freud (17:51)

Sounds like your parents were the kind of people that other people think are cool but are really hard to live with. And I wondered if you had any embarrassment about them.

Alexi Wasser (18:01)

If I had any embarrassment about my parents, of course. Oh, my God. Yes. Oh, my God. Well, yeah, because both of them were like, oh, my God. Where does the embarrassment start and end? Nowhere. Everywhere. Oh, God.

Bella Freud (18:15)

Was there one in particular who you were most like, self conscious about?

Alexi Wasser (18:20)

I mean, God, the way my mom dressed, I didn't like it if she didn't wear this makes me sound like an asshole. If my mom didn't wear lipstick, like a bold lip color, I was so furious. I'd be like, I just wouldn't even want to talk to her. I don't know. That's a me problem. That's not really on my mind.

Bella Freud (18:36)

No, it's interesting, though, because it's about. I think it's about being too visible for your comfort sort of level because of how unstable things are. Because in the end. Well, I don't know. That's my.

Alexi Wasser (18:53)

No, that's. That's such a good point. Well, like, I had my personal thing with my mom where it was like she was wild and kooky and rock and roll, but. But yeah, I was like, oh, my God. Yeah, don't draw attention. I just want to be normal. I want to be accepted. Oh, my God. Like, I lived in an apartment growing up and my friends lived in houses and I felt not enough. And, you know, I always just felt like. And so, you know, I wanted her to look. I don't know. I think my mom was kind of wild looking. And then I'd get self conscious. Then with my dad, I don't know if I got. I mean, he just got angry really easy and he was reactive and yeah, lots of shame. There's too much shame to even pinpoint where all the shame came from.

Bella Freud (19:42)

Yeah, but, God, did you have any hang ups about your body when you were making the transition from girlhood to young woman?

Alexi Wasser (19:53)

Oh, boy. Hang ups.

Bella Freud (19:59)

Maybe. I mean, was your mother quite validating of you as a. As a feminine creature, or did she just ignore that side of you? Which is what my mother did. There was just never any mention.

Alexi Wasser (20:12)

Never any mention of a body or.

Bella Freud (20:14)

Being validated or body or like, periods. No one ever had that conversation. So it was just mortifying. Everything was.

Alexi Wasser (20:21)

Oh, yeah, I don't. I think maybe I blocked it. All out. But I feel like. I know my mom's always been really supportive and I, you know, But I. There was a lot of times where I was just like kind of left to my own, like left alone or left with other people. But the periods and being validated in my body stuff. All I can remember off top of my head is I. I was always so self conscious and I always wanted to be. I wanted to be really skinny. I think in the 90s, you know, I wanted to be like a waif. And I was really self conscious about maybe my weight because that was like the heroin chic look was so in or whatever. But yeah, I think I was always so self conscious. I dressed in like thrift store corduroys and baggy jeans or like, I dress like the boys I had a crush on. Yeah, that was my way of being sexy. I didn't even think, like, maybe I wore a tube top here and there. Cut that out. Just kidding. Anyway, maybe I wore a tube top here and then. But. But like, but my main goal, like, that was such a weird thing that I was thinking about because when I listened to your show and you asked these questions about like, oh, what is sex scene? What did you. Your body, this, that and the other. Yeah, it made me think. Yeah. In high school, I was so boy crazy. I was super hormonal. I've always just loved the idea of romance and having crushes and just so amped up and maybe today's the day I'm gonna meet the love of my life and my boyfriend or whatever. It's just so embarrassing. But I would dress never in a provocative way. I would wear like 50 cotton, 50 poly T shirts and like, you know, vintage thrift store T shirts and corduroys and jeans and vintage Levi's and white sneakers. Because I think I just wanted to like. Because that's the kind of boy I wanted to attract. I wanted to attract some guy who looks like Liam Gallagher, who, like, looks like, you know, who wears like dark denim and. And a green and a parka or something. So I would dress that way, which is so weird, but I thought that was feminine. And then. Do you mind that I'm going off on a diatribe?

Bella Freud (22:28)

No, I love it. That's interesting.

Alexi Wasser (22:30)

Well, then when I was in my 20s, I remember some guy who was going to take me on a date and he was like. He was such a bonehead. I don't know. I mean, this is clearly when I was at my lowest self esteem wise, but I've been lower. But Anyway, but he was like. He was like, I'm going to pick you up. I'm going to pick you up at 8. I was like, all right. Okay. I've been chosen. I can't believe it. Somebody's going to pick me up for a date. This is amazing. And he goes, wear something sexy. And I remember when he said that, I was like. I was like, where's something sexy? What does that mean? And I completely lost my shit. And I got. So I overthought it so much because I thought, what is sexy? Here's this normal man, because he wasn't some, like, kind of waifish, androgynous drug addict, which is my normal. Which was my normal type. Usually like some kind of rocker or something. He was like a normal guy with a. With a job or something. And I went, he wants me to be sexy. Oh, God. And I think. And I ended up going to Urban Outfitters. So embarrassing. I went to. I went to Urban Outfitters and I got some kind of bandage skirt. And then I wore heels, which I never wear to this day. I rarely wear heels because I always want to be able to run away from a predator. And I do not like wearing heels because I'm already, like, nearly six feet tall. Yeah. And I wore, like, these bizarre heels that was. I was so uncomfortable in this weird bandage skirt that, like. Oh, my God. And I was just like a robot. Just like, I'm here and they picked me up. And anyway, it didn't go anywhere. It went nowhere. He looked at his phone the whole time. He's a very successful producer to this day. Good for him.

Bella Freud (24:05)

You sound like you looked amazing as well. There's something incredibly endearing when someone's out of their comfort zone and they're really young and. But it is. I mean, I don't think anyone's ever said that to me. Dress sexy. Because some people think wearing track pants and a kind of shredded T shirt is sexy. And someone else thinks, you know, shredded fishnets and a kind of.

Alexi Wasser (24:30)

Yeah.

Bella Freud (24:31)

God knows what. But so I would find that so rude.

Alexi Wasser (24:35)

So rude. I like to wear.

Bella Freud (24:36)

I don't know, just disconcerting. It's like, that isn't a directive. Tell me what to wear and I'll wear that.

Alexi Wasser (24:41)

What is sex? I don't even want that. Cause I got asked out on a date by some guy, and he went and he said, it's like some Italian place in Queens or something. And I was like, oh, exciting. We're gonna go to a mafioso place in Queens. And Then he texted, he goes, oh, by the way, there's a dress code. And by this time, I think I had too much self esteem this week. And I was like, I was like, dress code. He's telling me how to dress. He can go fuck himself. I was already like burned by the last guy who told me to dress sexy from when I was in my 20s, then I'm in my 30s or whatever. I was like, how dare he even I know what I'm doing. And then I was hard headed the other way. And then what I realized is I like being able to share clothes with a boyfriend. I like when we both can just share the same pants. I don't know where I'm going with this. Oh, my idea of sexy, like these little details are sexy to me. Wearing like a thin T shirt where you can kind of see through it and then you can. And then I'm wearing like a black lace bra or if I'm wearing like a singlet or a white T shirt or a wife beater or whatever. We're supposed to call these tank tops that are, you know, that we used to call wife beaters. Underneath a thin white tank top, I wear a black lace bra. And then I'm like, oh my God. Then I feel naughty. Then it's like, you can see my bra. I don't know. To me, that's sexy.

Bella Freud (26:03)

I like those looks that seem to have come out of Fame. The musical, you know, the.

Alexi Wasser (26:08)

Oh my God, I love that movie so much.

Bella Freud (26:10)

So good. And all that kind of Jane Fonda work at and all those layerings of those from that era. I think that looks really cool.

Alexi Wasser (26:19)

Oh, my God. I love the Coco part. When Coco's like goes over to the guy's house and he's like taking her shirt off. Like, do you know what I'm talking about?

Bella Freud (26:27)

No, I didn't.

Alexi Wasser (26:28)

Forget it. And that's all I'm looking for is to be understood. Oh, God.

Bella Freud (26:34)

Because in Messy you appear semi naked a lot of the time. And how is it to direct a movie with bare breasted at the same time? And I mean, it was really impressive. But you, you know, you did everything. And I wondered what that felt like.

Alexi Wasser (26:48)

Oh, my God.

Bella Freud (26:50)

I mean, did you rush to the monitor with like just your panties on?

Alexi Wasser (26:55)

I did. And the funny thing is I thought like, we had a very small cast. I had like a skeleton crew. A lot of men, a lot of women behind the camera as well. But I was like, they're gonna love this. My tits are out. This is incredible. I mean, I'm. Surely everybody will have a hard on. Nobody had a hard on. Nobody. There's like photos that people took on set. Actors were like, oh, got rolling their eyes. My DP is like looking. I'm here with my tits out. My DP is like looking the other way, drinking a Tasso tea or something. And I'm just like, anybody. And then I. I did ask. Oh. And then at some point I thought, okay, maybe I don't want to get like, you know, canceled. My. I'll be the first in line when women get canceled. Or so I don't want that for me. But so I started putting my tank top on to be respectful in between shots. But then because it was such a low budget movie and we had so many people wearing so many hats and no real script supervisor, except for my producer Rebecca, that I would jump back into the shot wearing the tank top. So the continuity was off. So I just had to leave the top off and be directing with my tits out anyway. And then at the end of the whole thing, I was like, did anybody get a hard on? Did anybody get a hard on during the shooting of this movie? And then one actor who will remain nameless was like, I got a hard on. And I was like, thank you. I want to say his name, but thank you.

Bella Freud (28:13)

Just kidding.

Alexi Wasser (28:14)

Okay, bleep that one. Hard on during the making of Messy.

Bella Freud (28:21)

So anyway, you describe also working in the APC store in SoHo in New York and having to write summaries of customers. And what kind of things did you write?

Alexi Wasser (28:31)

Oh, my God. Oh, yeah. Well, not a proud moment in my life. It was great. Okay, so I just moved. I love that you ask a question and then I'm like, let me take us all the way away from the question and maybe I'll get back to it. So I worked again. I moved to New York after living in New York, living in Los Angeles my entire life as a shop. And so I. I'm like, I'm not gonna write anymore. I'm not gonna act anymore. I'm living in New York now post pandemic. I need structure. I need a job. I need money. You hemorrhage money. Living in New York. And so, yeah, I got a job as a shop girl at APC at the Mercer flagship location because it's something I wanted to do when I was in my 20s. And I feel like I moved to New York and I just had a complete, like, midlife crisis where I, you know, dated people much too young for me, made horrible decisions. But Then also got this fun job as a shop girl. Everybody there was 18. And then I'm like 40 years old. And at the end of the day, you had to write, you had to type out your, like your most meaningful exchange, your most meaningful sale with a customer. So like all these other, all the kids who work there would be like, I sold a, sold a pair of dark denim or sold a pair of white sneakers. And then I had stopped writing in my personal life. I thought, fuck it, I'm not writing anymore. And then I tippy toed because of this thing you had to do at Mercer, at the Mercer apc. Suddenly my, my blurbs would get longer and longer and longer and they'd go from like, I sold a dress to a nice woman who walked into the shop and then they would turn into a woman walks in, weaves her way off the cobblestone streets of soho and finds herself in the store. You know, she's in a horrible marriage. They've been together for 20 years. Surely they're not sleeping anymore. And just for a moment, I remind this woman of who she once was. She puts the, the dress on and, and we may never talk again, but I'll, I'll never forget her or something like, so great. So the head of APC comes out of the store, the head of H, you know, that whatever headquarters he comes in, this French guy and he's like, are you the funny lady who's writing these, these, these very chunky long write ups. And I went, yes, it's me, it's me. I'm the funny lady. He was like, God, well, we are just loving in a, in a French accent that I can't do and I don't want to offend anybody. But he was like, sacre blue. But he was like, are we loving, we're loving the stories. And I went, you're loving the stories. Thank you so much. And he goes, yeah, but they're a little long. They're a little long. And this is a clothing store, so we need to, we need to tighten them up. And then I was like, you know what? Fuck this. I'm, I'm in love with writing again. I'm going to, I'm going to go back to writing. And then after that I, you know, I wrote, I wrote my movie because I was really.

Bella Freud (31:10)

Yeah, that's so great because I remember decades ago, this was, I was doing something. I was doing something for another magazine and I was asking different people to submit things and I can't remember what it was about. And And I asked Sofia Coppola for something, and she said her brother had told her to read Richard Broughtigan because it was very, very short. And it was a great way to, you know, have. Lessen the expectation of, you know, finalizing something. Having something. So short form is really great. And it's such a good reminder that if you. All you need to do is something short and then it can. And then you're writing, the worst thing is to write nothing. Oh, God, of course, as we all know, and. And then messy is a great word, and it's so evocative and all the meaning that comes with it. And you said you tell people about your encounters. And I find it really scary to tell people. And I wondered, how does it make you feel safe to kind of give the information and then hold yourself within that?

Alexi Wasser (32:30)

Oh, my God, that's so funny. It's weird that this works for me, but it's almost like living with it inside of me and with the shame of it, or the, like, let's say, like, you know, I don't know what whatever experience is inside, like, sharing it with people, then it has no power over me. It's like that scene in Whatever in the Labyrinth where, like, Jennifer Connelly is like, you have no power over me. And then, yeah, I get it out there, and then I survived, and then it's okay, and it's not so heavy. And it's like another person will say, oh, the same thing happened to me, or just getting out of my system. And it's not just, like, eating away at me, just makes me feel better. So, like. Yeah. So writing and the making of this movie and putting every horrible thought I've ever had about myself or putting those thoughts in other characters in the movie, like, that I interact with in Messi. Like, it just relieves me of the shame. It's like. That's why I talk about my big feet, too. I mean, God, I have a long foot. I say long foot because it's like. It's such a weird way to refer to having a big foot. I have a long foot because I'm trying to, like, oh, maybe it sounds chic and posh because, I mean, whatever, but because I remember I went on a date with a guy one time, and I was just the whole time thinking, I hope he never. I hope he never notices my big foot. I wear an 11 and a half in women American and I'll just die if he notices. And then one day he's dropping me off at the. At the end of a Date again. Giving a man way too much power. Giving another person way too much power over how I feel about myself. And he said, just as I'm about to get out of the car, Clump, clomp. No, he's like. He's like, oh, my God. What size shoe do you wear? And I remember I just looked at him and I burst into tears. I burst into tears because I was like, it's happened. It's happened. My biggest fear realized. So now, even in the movie and messi. Like, there's a scene where I'm in the bathtub with this guy. I compare my foot to his big foot, and then now it's in a movie and it's people. You can. If you can go on your Apple TV and watch this movie and see how big my foot is. And you know what? I don't care. Who cares? You know, it's out there. I didn't. It didn't kill me. So, like, that's. That's how I feel about, like. Yeah, just. It has no power.

Bella Freud (34:49)

Yeah. It's the shame diffuser, isn't it?

Alexi Wasser (34:52)

And what is that? The more personal, the more universal. So the more. Whatever. I don't know. You get the gist. I don't know.

Bella Freud (34:59)

Have you ever listened to that song by Fats Waller called your feet's too Big?

Alexi Wasser (35:05)

No, I'll do it.

Bella Freud (35:07)

Sorry, what'd you say? It's a love song. And it's like, sing it. Your feet's too big. I really hate you because your feet too big. I'm mad at you cause your feet's too big. I really hate you because your feet's too big.

Alexi Wasser (35:28)

Am I, like, moving around? I'm so.

Bella Freud (35:30)

It's all about this perfect girl, but then she's absolutely thrown out of the Garden of Eden because of her feet.

Alexi Wasser (35:38)

Oh, my God.

Bella Freud (35:40)

But I totally agree with you. I had so much shame phobia.

Alexi Wasser (35:43)

Do you really?

Bella Freud (35:45)

Less. Now, oddly, the older I get, the less shame I have. But I had this as soon as I hit puberty. I was. I'd gone from kind of thinking, oh, I'm okay. You know, in my darkest, deepest thoughts. And then thought, I am appalling. I. You know, I am just. And then I would look in the mirror and just be a series of body parts. I could never see my myself whole. And then as a. Now I'm older, I think, oh, great. You know, legs, arms, you know, it's all good.

Alexi Wasser (36:16)

You gave me such, like. By the way, do you get your legs out? Do you, like. You told Me, I was gonna go on a date or I was going to a party.

Bella Freud (36:23)

Yeah.

Alexi Wasser (36:23)

And you're like. You were like, get your legs out. And I went, oh, my God. Bella Freud told me to get my legs out. I must get my legs out. Because I, you know, I make you way too important. I put you on a pedestal. If she says to get my legs out, I'm getting my legs out. And then I did, and it changed everything. It changed everything. Suddenly I felt I was feeling sexy. And I was like, oh, my God, we're all just gonn die. I gotta get my legs out. But then I saw you went to a party. You didn't have your legs out.

Bella Freud (36:48)

No, but pass legs out. But maybe just in private. But, oh, my God, I love legs. I think they're, like, the most beautiful thing on a woman. And anyone who. You've got such long legs. Great legs.

Alexi Wasser (37:00)

It's tight season.

Bella Freud (37:01)

When I. When I met you, you were wearing a mini skirt. So I was like, yeah, get the legs out.

Alexi Wasser (37:05)

Was I really?

Bella Freud (37:06)

Yeah.

Alexi Wasser (37:07)

Oh, my God.

Bella Freud (37:07)

We had lunch in St. Ambrose.

Alexi Wasser (37:09)

I had my legs out. I felt like I was wearing a. Like some kind of long skort, but who cares? Yeah.

Bella Freud (37:14)

Okay, good. Yeah. John Waters named Messi as one of his top 10 films of this year. And I wondered which was the first film that you saw that made you feel that you could make films?

Alexi Wasser (37:25)

Oh, my God. I'm still waiting, still waiting to see a film that makes me feel like I can make film. No. Well, by the way, that was, like, the highlight of my life. John Waters liking my movie. I couldn't believe it. God, I don't know. I like movies. I like Annie Hall. I like Hannah and Her Sisters. I like Manhattan. I like Modern Romance. I love Albert Brooks. I love. I love Goodfellas. All these different movies. But there are a few movies specific to what inspired Messi also, because, again, it was like a puzzle. It's like, how can you make a movie for $100,000? You know, it ended up being a little bit more, but it's still under 200,000. So it's not like we're dealing with a movie that has explosions or, like, crazy special effects, which I wouldn't be interested in anyway because I'm completely neurotic and into, like, examining feelings and love and relationships and overthinking and all the tiny little details and whatever, and shining a light on, like, you know, things you observe. But what are the movies? Probably like, you know, the movies I just said, but also, like Swingers A new a movie called An Unmarried Woman by Paul Mazursky is a huge influence for me. Looking for Mr. Goodbar. I really feel like Messi is a combination of, yeah, An Unmarried Woman and looking for Mr. Goodbar. But then I also like, you know, my. My Dinner with Andre is a super talky movie. I'm a verbose person. As you can tell, I won't shut the fuck up. So it's like, I like these movies like Whit Stillman movies like Metropolitan, Last Days of Disco. And then there's a filmmaker named Henry Jaglum. He just recently passed away.

Bella Freud (39:02)

People I don't know about him.

Alexi Wasser (39:05)

Good, because a lot of people just hate his movies. Most people hate his movies. But I'm gonna name one of his movies that I love. And the reason I love it, it's called Someone to Love. And the reason I love this movie is I saw it on TV. I caught it when I was like 21 years old living in a studio apartment in West Hollywood a million gazillion years ago. And it's with Sally Kellerman and Henry Jaglum acted in his movies. But it's all. It's just all people talking about their feelings and love and relationships. And I thought, holy much like, you know, my Dinner with Andre, it's like, this is allowed. You're just allowed, like aiming a camera at like these people just talking. This is insane. But then I went, I guess that's okay. You know, just like people talking about their feelings. It's so crazy. I didn't know that was okay. So I'm like, oh, maybe, maybe it is.

Bella Freud (39:58)

And you're good at being naked and so.

Alexi Wasser (40:02)

You pervert. You pervert.

Bella Freud (40:05)

So what's your favorite kind of underwear? Is it risque or is it schooly?

Alexi Wasser (40:10)

Oh my God, is it. You know what? Here's the thing. On my day to day living in the world, I love wearing, what do you call them? Thongs. Oh, gosh, I love. I do. But here's the thing. I don't want to be naked in front of a guy in a thong because I don't love my butt because I feel like I have like a very little non butt. Okay. It's not my best feature. I like my boobs. I pretty much have no butt. I have a teeny tiny butt. So I want something I like, you know, like a 60s kind of mod, hip hugger, sexy thing. So, yeah, day to day, I. Yeah. And I like matching undies. Even if I'm not going on a date just for the Sake of it. I like, like, I don't know this, this company. Am I giving company names? Do you mind?

Bella Freud (40:55)

Not at all.

Alexi Wasser (40:55)

Brands want to know. Florida Mall, Is that the name of them?

Bella Freud (40:58)

Fleur de Mall.

Alexi Wasser (40:59)

Is that what they're called?

Bella Freud (41:00)

Flowers of wickedness, maybe.

Alexi Wasser (41:03)

So it is a good thing if that is the name. That's a great name. Okay. Them Casabella. You gave me some recommendation.

Bella Freud (41:10)

Yeah, Yasmina Salami. She does like keyboard dance style underwear, which I love.

Alexi Wasser (41:16)

So sexy. And then I went on a date the other day and I love lingerie. And this on, on our date, you know, we're walking around. I was visiting London and he. We went into Agent Provocateur and we bought. And he bought me laundry. I couldn't believe. It's the sexiest James Bond esque move in the entire world. We ended up having sex. I was wearing my lingerie. Are you allowed to talk about this stuff on the show?

Bella Freud (41:38)

Yes, definitely.

Alexi Wasser (41:39)

Yeah, it was so fucking hot. I couldn't believe it. I really have to stop cursing so much. But this is what it is.

Bella Freud (41:44)

But that's so romantic.

Alexi Wasser (41:47)

God, that's.

Bella Freud (41:48)

The things you think are going to happen and then they never happen.

Alexi Wasser (41:50)

Oh, and he made it. I couldn't believe it. Like this sexy gesture. And I feel like modern men, some men lately think like a woman wouldn't want to be given perfume or a candle or lingerie because it's not feminine. I'm a feminist. Go fudge yourself. I'd love some lingerie, thank you very much. And if you want to see me wearing it and fudge me while I'm wearing it, great, let's do it. And so, yeah, so it was the sexiest thing in the world. However, do you mind that I'm telling you for detail?

Bella Freud (42:16)

No.

Alexi Wasser (42:17)

Okay. So the funny thing was we're like, we're walking around, we're living our life. I'm trying to act like some version of myself that's like sexy and carefree, which I am not. And then we go into the lingerie shop and all the girls at Agent Provocateur like, are wearing like some kind of uniform. And I'm already like kind of inside being like, ugh, is he looking at these salesgirls? I hope not. But I had to like, pretend to be cool and effortless and not jealous. And I am kind of jealous and territorial and insecure sometimes. Most of the time. A lot of the time. Anyway. So we. I pick out. I pick out a thing and I'm like, oh, maybe I'll try this thing and. And then. And he's like, oh, yes, okay, great. You know, and then I. I'm like, I'll be back in a minute. And then I go into the dressing room and it's just so funny how, like, the per. Me. The version of me in the dressing room is so different from the ver. Like. Like I'm putting the lingerie on. I was only wearing ballet flats, which doesn't look hot when you're just putting on, like, some lingerie get up, you know, you prefer probably be in heels to make your thighs look better, blah, blah, blah. So I'm like, putting the stuff on, and I'm like, oh, God, I've got a scar in my stomach. I have scar my forehead. I've got a scar here. Like, you know, I'm swimming in scars anyway, but. So I'm putting all this stuff on and I'm like, you know, it's only new with this guy. And I'm like, oh, God, get it together. Like, just giving myself an internal pep talk, being like, okay, you got that? My nose is running. It's like cold outside. I always have allergies. Like, snot dripping out of my nose. And I'm like, just get it together. Get it together. And he's like, how are you doing in there? And I'm like, I'm like, I'll be ready in a minute. Like, so these are all the things that are, like, going on in my brain. Like, oh, God, get it together. Don't be a monster. And then I'm like, come in. And then. And then he comes in and I'm like, I'm just like, being some version of myself. That's such bullshit. Just trying to hold it together. And I think I did. And he got me the lingerie. I couldn't believe it. And. And then we went back to my hotel and had sex wearing the lingerie. So bottom line is, I love lingerie. I wear thongs on my own time. And then sometimes if I go on a date and I think I'm going to have sex, I'll. I'll have a full bottom. Not full full bottom, but like a proper undie.

Bella Freud (44:26)

Like a high. Like big panties.

Alexi Wasser (44:28)

No, no, not a big panty, but just not a thong. Like. Like a proper panty. That is not a thong. I'll have that in my purse so I can do some kind of fun switcheroon ski. Because, yeah, so I'm just a cool, chill girl looking for love and all the wrong things. Tell me when the podcast Starts. It's gonna be good.

Bella Freud (44:53)

Oh, it's so good.

Alexi Wasser (44:54)

Oh, my God.

Bella Freud (44:55)

I remember once asking, saying to my husband, why didn't you buy me something for Valentine's Day? And then I opened this package, and it was like this enormous pair of black pants that were, like, big enough to. For an enormous kind of person, like, who worked in a coal mine or something. And I fell on the floor and cried with laughter. And I never tried that again.

Alexi Wasser (45:19)

Wait, why did he do that? Did you tell him?

Bella Freud (45:21)

I just. Part of my embarrassment and shame. I would never ask for something because I'd never asked for anything I wanted, so I didn't get it. And are there clothes that make you feel better when you're feeling low?

Alexi Wasser (45:35)

Oh, my God. A paper bag. Let's see. God. I use, like, a really nice fitting. This is probably the most boring answer in the world. A good fitting pair of jeans.

Bella Freud (45:49)

Mm.

Alexi Wasser (45:51)

Matching lingerie.

Bella Freud (45:55)

So do you kind of dress up or down when you're feeling insecure like that?

Alexi Wasser (46:00)

Oh, God. I think I just don't leave my bed. I just stay in. And bedrot is, as I've heard people say. Oh, you know what makes me feel sexy, which gets me together in a pinch, is stockings. Like, black stockings.

Bella Freud (46:15)

Wow.

Alexi Wasser (46:16)

Right?

Bella Freud (46:16)

You're a great girlfriend, don't you think?

Alexi Wasser (46:19)

But I mean, like. I don't mean, like the like. Also, I do have those, so I should get those that come up so you could, like, spend over and something exciting can happen. Like have sex. I mean, but anyway. Oh, yeah. Black stockings. I feel like that, like, sucks your thighs up. It gets everything in one, you know, in one fell swoop. It sucks it all in. Yeah. And then it's. It's not too revealing. I feel safe still. Yeah. And then what else? And I guess for me, like, showing the shape of my body and an a line skirt or a very short, like, mini skort or something. So I don't feel. Because I still want to feel safe. I want to feel safe. And I like flats and thank God Gucci loafers come in my bigfoot size. And this company, this is a new thing. I'm saying. I'm not like. Yeah, anyway, a nice shoe. I realized as I'm 44 years old now and finally I am building out my shoe collection because I'm actually finding shoes that fit me, which is like a miracle. It's like a big. It's like because I wear. Oh, my God. Dare I say I wear a 43. Sometimes a 43 and a half in a shoe. And this company, Margot, I don't even know why, started making these sizes that fit my long foot and a lot of flats because I love wearing a flat. So now I have this assortment of, like, tiny little heels, kitten heels, and flats or like, a square heel. So I feel like I'm from the 60s that I can wear with my stockings, and I can actually participate as a potentially maybe not repulsive, active member of society. And maybe somebody will be like, who's that? But also, I just feel good in my skin because these things exist now.

Bella Freud (48:03)

Yeah, I find a shoe does wonders for my morale. It's like, you know, courage kind of goes through your backbone and being elevated and stuff.

Alexi Wasser (48:15)

The thing is, I'm so tall, so that's why I never want to be elevated. Wait, what's. What size shoe do you wear? None of my business.

Bella Freud (48:20)

39.

Alexi Wasser (48:21)

Oh, you're so lucky.

Bella Freud (48:22)

Average.

Alexi Wasser (48:22)

Yeah, average.

Bella Freud (48:24)

Perfect. And is there a particular garment that you find attractive on a man?

Alexi Wasser (48:29)

Yes.

Bella Freud (48:31)

Oof.

Alexi Wasser (48:31)

I will tell you what kills it, though. Okay, well, attractive on a man. I don't know if I'm just stuck in the 90s or the early aughts or. I just love Oasis so much. And I'm not just saying that because you're British, but I just love a white shoe. I like a white sneaker. I like dark denim. Again, like, that's, like, how I was dressing the way I did when I was younger to try to attract, you know, some version of Liam Gallagher who was into, like, you know, emo, whatever shoe. Gazy music. Yeah, yeah. Dark denim, white sneaker. Just simple, simple, effortlessly chic. Like, you don't want a guy to seem like you tried. Like, he just rolled out of bed. I want to smell his pheromones or something. I just don't want. Oh, my God, I don't want. And then I'm launching into, like. What repulses me is, like.

Bella Freud (49:23)

Well, that's another question. If you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?

Alexi Wasser (49:30)

Oh, God, it kind of does. Because even though you can't. Because now as I'm maturing and I'm evolving, I'm like, I don't want to change someone. I don't want to change a person. I want to accept somebody as they are, even though, you know, you can slightly cajole and change somebody's or buy gifts, you know, like.

Bella Freud (49:52)

But.

Alexi Wasser (49:52)

Yeah, like. But also, it. Like, it's linked to their brain, where you're like, why would they choose that? How could they not know. Why don't they have the. I mean, not like why. My taste is the be all end all. It's like I got. I got my own problems. I can go myself. Like, who knows? I mean, this is my taste and my personal thing. Like, but. But yeah, if I'm looking at a guy and he's wearing some kind of kooky over the top, like shoe or something, like a really bad dress shoe or I don't know. And like a tapered jean.

Bella Freud (50:24)

What? A skinny jean.

Alexi Wasser (50:26)

A skinny jean. That's what I mean. Like a skinny jean.

Bella Freud (50:29)

Really gross.

Alexi Wasser (50:30)

Doing too much. I don't want them to be doing too much. I want it like. I like white T shirts, black. I like crewneck. I don't want a deep V situation, like the early aughts, American Apparel kind of thing. Like, I just want to. Yeah, just. Oh my God. There's this guy, Aaron Levine I just discovered, on which I think people know about this guy. Like guys who like fashion. Like this guy. And he posts like photos of his fit pics, as the kids say. And he is such a good dresser. He's so like. Yeah. Oh my God, I don't watch porn, but that could be porn for me. I don't know. Good outfits, effortlessly chic, minimal, simple. Yeah, classic.

Bella Freud (51:15)

And you have a great friend. Have you always had that?

Alexi Wasser (51:18)

Have I always had this? Well, actually, I have it. Well, I'm naturally blonde. Really? I'm naturally blonde, but I don't like. I don't like blonde people. I really don't.

Bella Freud (51:30)

Wow.

Alexi Wasser (51:31)

I don't love them. I don't want to be a blonde person.

Bella Freud (51:35)

That's so rare, isn't it? Everyone go tries to be blonde except for you. And Olivia Wilde is naturally blonde.

Alexi Wasser (51:42)

Really? God, she seems so great. She seems very cool. She's so beautiful. I knew I liked her. I knew I liked her. But. Yeah, well, like, I like, like white blonde. Maybe I would do that one day. But I'm like a goldeny blonde. Who cares? Okay, so at a very young age, at like 13, I dyed my hair like blue black. And I gave myself bangs or a fringe or whatever we're calling them. But also two things. I have a scar on my forehead. It's like a Harry Potter scar because I got bit by a dog when I was 2 years old. And so that was kind of like a way to like. Even though I always love fringe, I just always thought it was such like an immediate kind of like sometimes people think it's like a Lego hairstyle that I've got but Lego hairstyle. I don't know. Like, it's like a very specific. I don't know. But, yeah, I like Jane Burke, and I like, you know, girls from the 60s and. But, yeah, it covers my scar, and as I get older, it keeps me. I've yet to get Botox, which is great because my whole face is falling towards the couch right now. But it's like when you have fringe, you can, like, take a little bit longer before you have to enter. You know, take your foray into Botox or what have you. So.

Bella Freud (52:55)

Well, it's. It's interesting because most people look better with their natural color, but you really suit being dark.

Alexi Wasser (53:02)

I know. You told me you wouldn't even talk to me if I was blonde. Right?

Bella Freud (53:04)

I can't imagine why. Why would I do such things? I know I do like having a fellow dark sister. It's like someone described someone as being a hero brunette, the other day, and I thought, yeah, we need those.

Alexi Wasser (53:19)

Oh, who's a hero brunette? Like Dakota Johnson?

Bella Freud (53:22)

Yeah, she's. Yeah. God, she's got all the allure of what's supposed to be a blonde allure. I mean, it is a fascinating thing. There's, you know, that. You know, like that Blondie song. Oh, your hair is beautiful. And I thought, God, that's the best line I've ever heard. Oh, my God.

Alexi Wasser (53:43)

I gotta listen to this after. Yeah.

Bella Freud (53:45)

Because it's like, Kim Gordon has amazing hair.

Alexi Wasser (53:48)

Oh, my gosh.

Bella Freud (53:49)

And it's like something from Andy Warhol. Anyone who has hair from Andy Warhol, it has this kind of, you know, this kind of glamorous, cinematic shimmer. Matches light.

Alexi Wasser (54:00)

Am I. You have.

Bella Freud (54:01)

I think you have French film hair.

Alexi Wasser (54:04)

Oh, my.

Bella Freud (54:04)

Oh, I'm not at the Anna Karina kind of. Okay, French.

Alexi Wasser (54:08)

I'm not at the Factory.

Bella Freud (54:10)

You're not at the Factory. Oh, my.

Alexi Wasser (54:12)

That's the meanest thing you've ever said to me, Bella.

Bella Freud (54:14)

But you're in a Gaga film. That's gotta be something.

Alexi Wasser (54:18)

Yeah.

Bella Freud (54:19)

You could be at the Factory. You could be.

Alexi Wasser (54:21)

Too late, Nico.

Bella Freud (54:22)

In her dark phase. Except for her blonde phase is better. I'm sorry.

Alexi Wasser (54:26)

Oh, my God. Wait, I'm gonna put my hand here. And then people can be like, yeah, her hands do look like Gollum.

Bella Freud (54:32)

No, we can't talk about hands because.

Alexi Wasser (54:34)

Oh, really?

Bella Freud (54:35)

No.

Alexi Wasser (54:35)

Why?

Bella Freud (54:37)

Well, then we're gonna start dissing our hands.

Alexi Wasser (54:39)

Oh, okay, let's stop.

Bella Freud (54:40)

We can't diss anything.

Alexi Wasser (54:42)

We're not doing that today.

Bella Freud (54:43)

No. Well, thank you so much. Alexei Wasa for being on Fashion Neurosis. I've had the most entertaining and riveting time talking to you, and I'm a massive fan.

Alexi Wasser (54:57)

Oh, my God.

Bella Freud (54:57)

Thank you so much.

Alexi Wasser (54:59)

Thank you for having me.