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- [00:00]
A
When I got a new car, I thought my insurance premium would increase and empty my bank account. Like if Fatween won the lottery. I've invested most of my winnings in chicken tenders because they're bomb. But bro, I bought a house and it's sick, bro. I'm thinking the floor is going to be all trampoline, bro. With a helipad on the roof. The contractor said it's structurally unsound, but they're just being babies. But switching to Geico saved me hundreds, so my bank account is safe. It feels good to save some hard earned cash. It feels good to Geico. Support for this show comes from Odoo. Running a business is hard enough, so why make it harder? With a dozen different apps that don't talk to each other. Introducing Odoo. It's the only business software you'll ever need. It's an all in one fully integrated platform that makes your work easier. CRM, accounting, inventory, E commerce, and more. And the best part, Odoo replaces multiple expensive platforms for a fraction of the cost. That's why over thousands of businesses have made the switch. So why not you try Odoo for free@odoo.com that's o d o o dot com.
- [01:19]
B
Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Charli xc.
- [01:31]
A
Thanks for having me.
- [01:32]
B
Bella, can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
- [01:39]
A
Well, today we're sort of coming off like a major heat wave in London and nobody really has AC here, so I really. You've really got to like dress for that and you got to be like prepared to kind of be getting a bit hot and flustered. So my clothing choices for this past week have really been based around weather in London, but I wanted to just be, I don't know, like comfortable as I'm like lying on your beautiful sofa. Feel relaxed. We've also been talking a lot about like the angle.
- [02:24]
B
Oops.
- [02:25]
A
And like how that works with clothes and things like that. So yeah, I just, I went for something easy. My like Levi's and some old like vintage Guess shoes and this holey T shirt.
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B
Yeah, I love those studded shoes.
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A
They're fun, aren't they?
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B
Yeah, they're really good, I think. Ooh.
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A
Yeah, they're cute. They've also, I love wearing a heel that is actually so comfortable to run around in and this is exactly what these shoes are.
- [03:01]
B
Yeah, they're great. Elegant too.
- [03:05]
A
Thanks.
- [03:06]
B
And you're a superstar in the world of music, film and fashion. And as well as a new music style, you've created a way of using clothes as part of your performance that has captivated an audience of young kids and ex punks like me. And in 2025, you headlined Glastonbury and won the Ivan Ovello Songwriter of the Year. You've been on the COVID of Vogue. You're not one to rest on your laurels. And I wondered where your restlessness comes from.
- [03:39]
A
Great question. It's interesting. I think my restlessness first of all comes from just this innate passion to always be making something. I feel really, really lucky that I get to make things all the time. And to be honest, I don't really have hobbies, you know, outside of what I do. Like my dream day is either kind of being in the studio making a song or making something with friends of mine, or watching back to back films or talking about films that we've seen. You know, I just, I don't like to sit still and sort of switch off that side of my brain because then I get bored. You know, I feel so enthralled by engaging with art and different kinds of art and artists that I just want to do it all the time. So I think in part it's that and then in part it's. I don't really know what I would do if I wasn't doing that, you know, Like, I think engaging in making things brings me so much joy to the point where it's like, you know, it's like I do what I do to kind of like in a way fight off my depression and stay alive. You know, it's like it's my first love in my life over anything else. And I take that really seriously because I know that making things that actually is really healing for me and my kind of inner voice, which sometimes is running haywire. And I think there is also, coupled with that there is probably like an element of like running from the silence if I'm being real. You know, maybe I do need to kind of like practice stopping and sitting in that kind of more calm state. But that is something I'm definitely out of practice in.
- [06:04]
B
I don't know, I feel, I mean, I really relate to what you're saying and I find that calm space in the middle of like in the eye of the storm. So I find it more stressful to be trying out the calm thing.
- [06:21]
A
Yeah, I agree with you. I think I've done it before where, you know, once you push through that sort of two week mark, you can kind of like sink into or me. At least I can, but I rarely do that. I've done that once in my life. I think really, I just need these things. It's more than just a kind of enjoyment of them. It's like I need to be pouring my emotions into those outlets, you know,
- [06:57]
B
Because I came to your music through watching the film Bottoms and I heard the track yes, no, okay, and I loved it so much. It's so funny and it's punk. And it reminded me of when I feel ambiguity, which is rare. And you seem like the bard for young women, being both scathing and sincere. And I wondered, how did you know how to articulate those conflicting states of being?
- [07:29]
A
You know, it's funny. It's like, I don't think I really know anything. Like, when I'm making music, I'm never really thinking too much in advance about what I will be saying or what I want to say. Not all the time, but a lot of the time. I think for me, making music is very much kind of like when you have a thought, the thought comes, you know, and then you say it out loud. And yes, sometimes you can, like, trace back why you might have had that thought because of your circumstance. But, like, I don't know, like, generally speaking, it's like the thought just comes out, right? And for me, it's like when I'm writing songs, it's like, I don't know where the. The personality comes from, except it's just from me. And it's just the things that are kind of within me that I say out loud. And I think I've always had this relationship with music and with any kind of creativity in general that, like, for something to be fun and funny doesn't necessarily mean that it also can't be, like, deeply serious and important. And I think there is still a bit of a sticking point around that, you know, and that's not to say that I'm sort of anti, like, work that takes itself very seriously. I also really enjoy, you know, that too. But I think something being fun and funny and silly, even at points, is also totally valid as, like, a serious way of working. And I kind of like bringing those things together, bringing that sort of attitude with humor, with, you know, something more kind of introspective and sincere, I suppose, because that's how I feel about art in general and music in general. You know, that all of those feelings can kind of collide together to make something that feels very real and personal.
- [10:03]
B
Because you said that life without art would have no purpose. And how Old were you when you realized that this is where your drive and your courage comes from?
- [10:13]
A
I mean, I started making music when I was probably 13 or 14. And I think at that point in time, I didn't really know that I felt that way. I knew that making songs and recording ideas made me feel good. It made me feel safe in a way. It made me feel like I could escape to my own world, you know? But I think it was sort of as I grew older that I realized that so much of my joy and my personality and who I am as a human being is so interwoven into either making or engaging with art in some capacity. Even my friendship, my best friends and the things that they make, whether they're making music or, you know, I have a friend who makes furniture and a lot of sort of chairs out of metal and lights and things like that. It's like, even, like, the things around me, I feel like. I don't know, I'm constantly around people making things at different scales and levels and with different ambitions, and I just. I don't know, it's like it's. I'm very. I feel very, like, privileged and lucky. And of course, I'm aware of that. That, like, I'm surrounded by that. And. Yeah, it's sort of just become this, like, fabric of my entire life. And to strip all that away, it's like I don't really know what I would have. Because it's such a kind of fundamental part of a lot of my relationships with other human beings as well.
- [12:15]
B
Yeah, it's an amazing filter. I was that scene, that famous scene in the Cocteau film where he goes through the mirror. I often think of those moments where you feel like you're going through the mirror and you're pushing yourself or discovering this moment where you. Something else comes out of whatever it is you're kind of absorbed with. And it's.
- [12:42]
A
Yeah.
- [12:43]
B
Such a great moment.
- [12:45]
A
Yeah. And I find, for me, at least a lot of the times those kind of moments happen, it's like where I make some kind of mistake or sort of an accident happens and it can become something quite beautiful and actually, like, defining in a way, which is why I think it's really cool to just let ideas flow and also really kind of embrace being almost childlike when it comes to creating. And, you know, I think to be childlike as an adult, I think, takes a lot of bravery because there's always this fear of being embarrassed, I suppose. And I think especially, like, I don't know, like, making Things is inherently embarrassing, you know, because not only do you have to possibly, like, suggest some really terrible ideas out loud, you also have to kind of like, I don't know, just like, be willing to just completely fall on your face all the time. But I think just kind of pursuing that childlikeness can sometimes really open you up to ideas that maybe you would feel too embarrassed to have if you weren't kind of doing that. And I think that's quite a scary thing, but a really beautiful thing once you're able to kind of go there.
- [14:28]
B
I suppose when you're in action, the more you are, the more you are. And it kind of seems to get into your system to just dare to be seen type of thing.
- [14:40]
A
Right, right. We all do it. You have a night for yourself, but don't like the sound of the silence, so you turn on the TV just for the ambiance. It's a little trick that helps you feel like you've got company and aren't alone. And other insurers, well, they may make you feel alone, but when you switch to geico, you've got claims reps available around the clock, so whenever you need, you'll have people around to help. And let's turn on the washing machine
- [15:04]
B
just for good measure.
- [15:08]
A
Isn't that soothing? It feels good to have support. It feels good to geico.
- [15:12]
B
And your. Your parents met in a club. I wondered, is fashion a thing in your household?
- [15:19]
A
I mean, you know, it's. It's funny. It's like. So my mum grew up in Uganda and she's Indian. And so when I was younger, I was always kind of like dressing up in her saris and things like that. And, you know, they were all so colorful and with these brilliant patterns and really beautiful materials with, like, you know, bits of gold thread woven in them. And, you know, that was sort of one side of me growing up, you know, getting to kind of like experience all of that color in such a kind of maximalist way. Cause all of the sorrows that she had were very colorful. And my dad, I mean, my dad, like, he. He was always so encouraging of me to really kind of embrace my. My outrageousness, you know, I think he. Especially when I was younger, you know, and when I was kind of in school and then going to art school a little later in life, like, I think he was very much off the ethos of, like, you should dress crazy. Like, why would you want to blend in? Like, it's fun to wear, like, odd shoes on your feet and, like, and that's the kind of thing that I was doing when I was younger, especially because I was kind of like hopping in and out of London right when the kind of new rave scene was sort of dying. And so there was that time where everybody was sort of like making necklaces out of teapots and plastic toys and things like that. So I was kind of like doing that and my dad was really encouraging me and I think my mum was a bit like, oh, that's weird, you know, but they themselves, I mean, they never really like pushed like aesthetics or fashion or even music onto me. Really. Like, they really. They really kind of just let me sort of navigate that myself and be into what I was into. So, you know, I was like listening to like Britney and the Spice Girls and things like that when I was younger. And it was only a little bit later when I kind of got deeper on the Internet, that I was a bit more finding things from like an earlier time and that kind of stuff.
- [18:02]
B
Yeah, I remember talking of teapots. I remember going to a club when I was a teenager and seeing the slits there and they were wet. They used to wear colored tights with fishnet tights over. And then I can't remember if they. But one of them had sewn these tiny little wooden tea sets onto their tights. Like there was a tiny little teapot and a cup and it was just so cool.
- [18:33]
A
So cool, so intricate.
- [18:35]
B
Yeah. And then they would be so scathing and sit there absolutely silent and scornful.
- [18:44]
A
You know what's funny? I. When I was at art school, I was sort of staying in like, the dorms, like near Tottenham Court Road, which was near where Slade was. The school I went to that was at ucl. And I don't quite remember why, but I don't. I don't remember how we got in touch, but Viva Albertine and I somehow got in touch and she came to my, like, shitty little, like, dorm room, single bed, like full of all of my crap. And we recorded a song together in my dorm. It was for some, I think it was for some, like, charity show at the Roundhouse. We recorded a cover of Train In Vain by the Clash. And I think that that song was about her or one of the other girls in the band. I'm kind of blanking on the exact story, but it was a real. It was a really, really, really surreal experience to have her, you know, there sat cross legged on my single bed, like, making a song with my, like, crappy keyboard and bad drum loops.
- [20:11]
B
But, yeah, love to hear that. Song. I bet it's fantastic.
- [20:15]
A
I'm sure it's on the Internet somewhere.
- [20:17]
B
I hope so. And what was the first piece of clothing that you became obsessed with as a child? Hmm.
- [20:27]
A
I had a pink sort of princess dress that was, I don't know, just sort of this kind of tacky, like, dress up box, sort of puffed out, sparkly kids dress that I just, like, absolutely loved. And it was probably like, actually some sort of like Toys R Us situation, the peak of fashion, you know, and it came with these, like, little, like, lacy white gloves. Very trad, actually. But I remember being really, really into that when I was younger and always wanting to wear it. And there are definitely some cute pics of me floating around in that. Yeah, I think I'd say that was
- [21:34]
B
it like a kind of identity thing that you craved, this thing to consolidate how you felt about yourself, you know,
- [21:42]
A
I really don't know. I mean, I definitely wasn't thinking that deeply about it when I was like three, to be honest. I think it was just the classic, like, you know, when I was younger, I just thought, like, that it would be fun if my job was like, being a fairy or something, you know, like seeing that film, a fairy tale about those two girls who discovered fairies at the bottom of their garden, but nobody else could see them. And I remember, like, I wanted to have that experience, like, so badly, you know, And I think my whole, like, vibe was like, just trying to, like, get close to that kind of a thing. So I think that's probably why I was into the dress. But I remember later in life, probably when I was like 16, 17, I remember, like, after I signed my first record deal, I bought this pair of Vivienne Westwood red felt platform boots. And I remember so well, I was desperate to have them. I went to the store on Codart street and they didn't have my size. And it was like the last pair and they were like a size too small. And I'd never really bought anything from a designer before. This was my first sort of doing that. And yeah, they only had a size too small, but I was so desperate to have them that I bought them anyway. And I would wear them and they were so painful, so uncomfortable. Like, my toes sort of like crossing like this, you know, because they were just too small for me. But I remember feeling like when I wore them, and even just like when I was in the shop buying them, I was like, I feel like this is a piece of my identity that it's like I don't own it. Yet, but I'm about to. And, yeah, those shoes, I just felt so. You know, it's like. I think when you wear Vivienne, you, like, just immediately inherently feel, like, connected to, like, the history of her world. And I definitely felt that when I was wearing those very painful, small shoes.
- [24:33]
B
Yeah, they're so great. There's also. There's something about the elevation of her shoes that I feel it's to do with, like, well, it's posture, but it somehow seems to get the courage going up in your spine. And so you start there and then you're ready for the next bit of your look. And it's really empowering and.
- [24:57]
A
Yeah.
- [24:58]
B
Yeah. Cause you've called your style Disney grunge, which is such a great description, I think is wonderful because you possess this grace and freedom in how you move, which is a bit like a cartoon animation. I wondered if you had a cartoon character who you identify with.
- [25:19]
A
Oh, my gosh, that's so funny. I feel like me describing my style as Disney grunge is very, like me on MySpace, like, typing away on my profile. I'm not sure I'd describe it like that now, but I think it's cool that you kind of feel that it still relates. Gosh. In terms of a cartoon character. I don't know. I mean, I feel like I probably always related most to. Even though our fashion sense is very, very different. I would say probably most related to Daria as a cartoon character, just because she's so. I don't know, she's just kind of so like. Which is like my favorite vibe ever. But we do dress very, very differently. But I think her sense of style
- [26:10]
B
is very cool because I think. I mean, I always. I've been quite obsessed with cartoons my whole life, and I feel they have these amazing qualities of kind of. It's so compressed and there's so much intensity with them that I'm always. I sort of honed in on that phrase, which I think conjures up a lot.
- [26:36]
A
Yeah.
- [26:37]
B
And your lyrics are confident and body positive and things like, I'm a hot girl and my generation are so self effacing. And I think we were brought up with a lot of shame around our bodies and. And how do you feel free to say that kind of thing? It seems so. It's so fantastic.
- [27:00]
A
Well, you know, it's. For me, it's like, I love sort of writing songs like that because almost, in a way, it's like a mantra. It's like the more you say that stuff out loud, the More. You really feel that in your bones. And I also think, you know, when I sing songs of mine that make me feel really powerful, I can feel that they make the kind of audience who I'm performing them to feel powerful as well. And I really like that. But I will say I feel a lot of shame about, you know, my body and how I look sometimes. And I think it's, you know, this sort of endless kind of pendulum swing between, like, feeling unbelievably confident to feeling unbelievably insecure. And I think that is sort of the harsh reality of, like, the world we find ourselves in, especially on the Internet. And I think, you know, there is so much, like, expectation placed on young women and also so much critique thrown at young women that I feel like it's. Yeah, it's sort of this, like, inescapable thing that isn't our fault, you know. So, yeah, I definitely. While sometimes I can feel very body confident and very, you know, sexy and hot and all the rest of it, like, sometimes I really. I really don't feel that way. And sometimes it's sort of impossible for me to get out of feeling that way. And then sometimes I can use things like clothing or music to kind of get myself out of that, you know?
- [29:16]
B
Yeah. I mean, your success, your smash hit album, Brat, you made it okay to be messy and erotic, and you make it reasonable that a woman can be all those things and not just a good or a bad girl. And it's really comforting. And was that something inherent or is there someone who you think embodies this, who you kind of think about sometimes?
- [29:44]
A
I mean, for me, I think that just. It just came because I think I've always been a little bit like that. I've always been a bit more messy, and I've always wanted to live my life exactly how I want to be. And sometimes that does involve being a bit messy or being a bit fucked up or, you know, not necessarily, like, I don't know, dressing the way I'm supposed to at certain moments. I don't know. And so that's just always been who I am. And I think sometimes that makes people really uncomfortable, and sometimes that makes people feel really excited because they feel that way, too. I mean, there are so many, like, awesome women who have embodied that, like, long, long before me. I mean, we spoke about Vivienne. It's like, I think she's such a pioneer of that. People like Beatrice Dahl, who I'm just, like, obsessed with, really.
- [31:03]
B
That's so interesting.
- [31:05]
A
And, like, I don't know. I remember seeing that movie, Ladies and gentlemen, the Fabulous Stains, when I was younger and was really inspired by that, too. And. Yeah, you know, like, Bow Wow Wow, that band. Like, when I. What's the lead singer's name?
- [31:24]
B
Annabella Lewin.
- [31:25]
A
Yes, Annabella Lewin. Like, she's just so cool, and she's so kind of, like, doing her thing. I mean, like, polystyrene. Like, all of those women, like, they really kind of, like, were so sort of abrasive in being who they are. And that's always been very inspiring to me. And so, yeah, with the last record with Brat, especially thinking about clothing and thinking about performance on stage, I really didn't want to feel like I was sort of dressing up as a pop star and going on stage. I really just wanted to wear clothes that I would wear to a party at my friend's house and then perform the music in those clothes and really exist in that kind of a wardrobe. And, yeah, I think people could really relate to that. And it was so cool, actually, seeing a lot of the fans who were coming to the shows were kind of, like, making their own versions of those outfits and honestly taking a lot of time and really being quite thrifty and making really cool, like, interesting versions and interpretations of some of the things that I'd worn.
- [32:46]
B
How great. That must have been so fascinating to see that.
- [32:50]
A
Yeah.
- [32:51]
B
Because your new Single is called SS26 and shows you walking in a fashion show and also sitting in the front row next to Carrie and Roitveld, and you're a great wearer of clothes, and I'm interested that this kind of traditional format is still appealing and has power and. What is it you like about it, about fashion shows?
- [33:16]
A
Yeah, well, I actually think one of the best places to hear music is at a fashion show or even when I'm just on TikTok and I'm watching, like, models stomp to songs, it just. There's, like, a fantasy there that is just. I don't know, it, like, transports me. Like, if I ever see, like, I don't know, like, Naomi or, like, Shalom or like, Alex Khonsani, like, stomping along to, like, an epic song and there's, like, a great TikTok edit. Like, I don't know, like, it's so satisfying to me. And, you know, having been to, like, a few fashion shows and, like, seeing, like, how the music sort of can really, like, set this tone. Like, it's really. I don't know, it feels. Especially when the set is really great as well. It's really exciting. And, you know, you also have to just sort of sit still and listen and watch. It's not like you're dancing. And, I mean, you can kind of dance a little in the chair and stuff, which is cool, but it's like you're really kind of focused on it. You're focused on the atmosphere and you're focused on the clothes, and you're focused on the way that the models are moving. And, yeah, it's kind of like a unique experience, I suppose. And also, I've never walked in a Runway show ever, so that was also sort of like a fun fantasy to do that in a very low pressure way where I controlled every element of the edit.
- [35:05]
B
Because I read that you and some fellow musician collaborators dressed up to see how wearing a 90s minimal and a Millermeister type of outfit could influence how you record a song differently. And what came out differently?
- [35:21]
A
Well, I think, you know, when we were making this album, music fashion, film, we decided we wanted to go to Paris to make it. I knew that that was going to be the title kind of right at the beginning of the writing process. And I had said to my two collaborators who I made the album with, A.G. cook and Finn Keane, like, we should go to Paris. We should go During Fashion Week, AG was doing the music for the Alexander McQueen show. I was going to watch the Saint Laurent show, and Finn was just being Finn. I don't know. And we kind of like, thought, like, okay, let's go and let's record during that week. Because we know that we're gonna be, like, running around. We're gonna be bumping into so many people.
- [36:18]
B
We're.
- [36:19]
A
We're gonna be seeing so many people dressed up in all these fabulous clothes. We're gonna be seeing so many fans of fashion who are out there doing their thing. So much street style, so many interesting parties with funny people popping up left, right and center. We kind of felt like it would be a really. Just a really rich environment to create specifically this album, which, you know, the title, you know, contains the word fashion. So we were like, well, let's just go. Even if it ends up not being very fruitful, maybe it would just be like a fun experience. And like, during that, we sort of decided, okay, like, okay, let's sort of, like, dress for the feeling of the album. Let's dress for the feeling of Paris, you know, and in that came that kind of experiment. I mean, I will say I. I always like to. I always think about, like, the clothes that I wear when I record, because it can really. It can change my mood and it can change the song. I mean, it's like, if you're wearing, like, Phoebe Filo, you're, like, gonna make a cool song. You know what I mean?
- [37:32]
B
It's like.
- [37:33]
A
Cause the clothes make you feel effortless. You know, if you're wearing, like. Or at least if I'm wearing, like, some, like, scraggy old kind of T shirt from, like, back when I was, like, 16. There's like, a coziness to that that maybe can make me write lyrics that feel a bit more internal and kind of reflective or something. And, you know, if I'm wearing, like, the highest of high heels, it's like, that's maybe when a song, like, Hot Girl comes out. So, yeah, I feel like clothing could really change the mood of my writing process, at least.
- [38:18]
B
I loved that because I thought that makes complete sense to me. And it's so interesting to hear, especially a young person, talk about understanding how there's a rigor in clothes, or it can bring you a sort of tension of where you need it to be. Yeah. And you write brilliantly about deep feelings and how uncomfortable they can be and their impact emotionally. And yet you come across as a securely attached person. And I wondered, where do you anchor yourself when you want to get close to that edge?
- [38:56]
A
Well, gosh, I don't think anyone's ever called me securely attached. So I'll. I'll take that. Because, yeah, I think I. It's like I know myself, but I also can sometimes be completely out of control of my emotions and just my mind, to be honest. And I can really spiral. And so, to be honest, it's not hard for me to kind of get there, to write those kinds of songs, because I feel like I'm always, in a way, fighting between feeling, like, unbelievably stable and unbelievably out of balance. And it's sometimes really quite hard to navigate that. And, yeah, I don't know. It's like I can tap into that kind of easily because I am quite fragile and sensitive. But I also enjoy kind of, like, talking about this stuff that we're talking about now. It's like, this is, like, my calm place. Like, I love these conversations. I love talking about, you know, all the things that we're talking about, like influences and fashion and art and all of these things. So maybe I'm just feeling calm right now because I'm, like, lying on your nice sofa having a nice conversation.
- [40:37]
B
Well, there must be Something there because I feel like I'm quite good at kind of sensing. I mean, I'm paying myself a compound. But because I regulate myself, or I have, you know, I notice how I regulate my own kind of oscillating, you know, kind of extreme feelings. And so there's something that you're transmitting that's working and it's great.
- [41:07]
A
Well, that's good. That's good. I'm happy to know. To hear that. I mean, I will say I would. Recently, I think I've been, like, terrible at self regulating and kind of like bringing myself back down to, like a neutral calm. So, yeah, I mean, that's good to hear. I think your home has a very, very calming vibe, I will say. So I think it could be you that's like making me like this. But, yeah, I'll take it. Maybe I'll move in.
- [41:47]
B
I'd be delighted. Because it's very fresh how you collaborate with your friends who are also your peers and competitors, and you've worked with artists including Lorde and Billie Eilish and Julian Casablancas and numerous others. And it feels generous and exciting. And I know it's not fashionable to say, but do you ever get attacks of competitive jealousy?
- [42:13]
A
Yeah, I mean, obviously, of course. Like, I think I've said this to Lorde before, to Ella. Like, I was so jealous when I heard Royals for the first time, which is now funny because there's this whole, like, meme of, like, everybody's always, like, yelling at me, sig Royals. Like, they. You know, they. There's this whole thing anyways. But yeah, when I was younger and I heard that song, I was like, I'm so jealous. I wish that I could have written that song. I thought it was so spectacular, thought it was so unique. I thought it really defined a time, that song. And I think so many people since have tried to kind of bottle that essence that Ella really immaculately captured on that song. So, yeah, for sure. I mean, I. It's like when you share your work with friends. Like, I recently, my friend Romain Gavras put out this music video for this project he does called Generation, which starred young Lean. I remember messaging him and I was like, I am so jealous. You know, and he was like, thank you. And then I, like, sent him my. You know, later on, I sort of sent him my recent album cover, and he was like, well, I'm jealous of that. And I'm like, okay, well, this is. It's like kind of like the biggest compliment in a way. Like, when it's like, how, you know, like, oh, my God, like, that is so, so awesome. Like, I wish I'd made it. And I'm not really embarrassed by saying that. I think. Yeah, it's like, that's like the sign of, like, oh, wow. Like, they did that so well. They did such a good job. Like, they just, like, completely, like, killed it with that. So, yeah, of course that happens. And I think, you know, I would say for the most part, a lot of people feel that, but maybe people don't want to admit it. I don't know. But I'll admit it.
- [44:24]
B
Yeah. Because I remember talking to my shrink about feeling demoralized by feeling competitive with someone who I really liked. And he said, well, treat it as a game. And that just completely transformed it. And I thought, okay, it's, you know, it's fine to have these feelings and actually you can play and it can stimulate me to look harder or do something, push myself or enjoy myself or just enjoy their. Their outfit instead of shrinking away.
- [44:58]
A
Right, right. And I think, you know, like, sometimes competition can kind of like. Yeah. Like, drive or inspire you a little bit, as long as it's, like, in a relatively healthy way. I mean, I think, like, in my sort of friend group, there is, like, a lot of that going on. But I think the thing that's still cool at the same time is I think everybody kind of, like, shows up to support each other's work. And I think that is, like, the key for that whole thing. It's like you gotta kinda like, show up for your friends and support them, especially if you think the work is great. But even if you don't, it's like, that's kinda what, like, being a friend is about. And I think sometimes when you're sort of friends with a lot of creative people, that element can sometimes get a bit lost, which is a shame, because actually it's like, so fun to just, like, support the people that you love the most and kind of, like, go on their journey with them and be really excited for them.
- [46:05]
B
Yeah. I love the video Boys, which you co directed in 2017, and it's so tender and cute with all the endearing qualities that boys have. And it's not reductive either. And you friendships with film directors like David Cronenberg and Jim Jarmusch. You thinking of directing more or is acting more liberating for you?
- [46:32]
A
You know, I gosh, like, I don't know if I have the. I mean, I definitely currently don't have, like, the sort of skill level to direct A full length feature. I mean, watching friends of mine do it, it's like just the stamina that you have to have to do that is something like so hardcore and admirable. And yeah, it's really like you gotta be locked into that for a long time. Like, you know, pre production, shooting it, post production, the edit, like then like, especially nowadays, like dealing with like studios, like dealing with like how you're gonna sell it, how are you gonna market it? It's like so much. And like, I've had my own experience with that without directing the entire film and it's already like, oh my God, I'm at capacity. So, I mean, I have so much respect for directors. I think to direct a feature film is something so ambitious. Especially, you know, at a time where it's really kind of like hard to get the resources that you need to do that. Even these sort of major, like iconic film directors from the past, some of them can't even get like the funding to make what will undoubtedly be a great film. I think the industry has just changed so much in terms of what studios want, like from my sort of naive, outsider perspective.
- [48:21]
B
But
- [48:23]
A
yeah, so, I mean, look, never say never, but I think I have a lot to learn is what I'm saying. Like, I think that's part of the reason, like, I love the being on set so much, like, is getting to watch what other people are doing, getting to kind of talk to cinematographers, talk to the directors, like even just talk to other actors about how, you know, other sets that they've been on have been compared to the one that we might currently be on. You know, it's like, I just feel like I've got so much to learn and I really enjoy learning it all, so. Yeah, but no feature directorial debut just yet.
- [49:10]
B
Cause you worked with John Cale on the soundtrack for Wuthering Heights. And was that your idea to approach him? Because I find him totally fascinating and a genius and I was interested that you did too. And being from a different generation, how was it to work with him?
- [49:32]
A
Oh my gosh. I mean, John is just like the coolest guy ever. Me and my friend Finn were working on House, which is the name of the song that John's on, and we just. I did this kind of like outro thing and the track itself was really kind of quite like haunting and bewitching, I suppose. And I remember, like, I had watched the Todd Haynes Velvet Underground documentary and I remember John had said in the documentary that when he was thinking about the viola and the strings Specifically for the Velvet Underground stuff. He really wanted them to feel both elegant and brutal. And he said it, he phrased it in this, like, really amazing way. And that phrase really stuck with me. And when we first started working on this song House, I was like, wow, this kind of sounds, in a way, like my interpretation of those words. And so I sort of thought, like, do you think I could reach out to John Cale? Like, you know, like, I kind of, like, just started, like, asking the question out loud, like, really not sure what the answer would have been. But we basically found a way to get in touch with him. And we swapped phone numbers and we agreed that we'd have a call in a few days or something after we had initially got in touch over text. I remember the day that we were supposed to speak. I was having a really bad day. I was like my very unregulated self, very up and down, all over the place, crying. I can't remember what was going on, but I just remember it was a very stressful, bad, bad, emotional day. And I totally forgot that I had this call with John. And I was sat with my husband at my place. And suddenly my phone started ringing as I was, like, mid, like, you know, ugly cry, like, full on. I picked up the phone. There's just this voice on the end, like, so kind of gravelly and deep and Welsh. And he was just like, hello? And I was like, who is this? And he was like, it's John. And I was like, oh, my God, John Cale's calling me, like, mid breakdown. And I kind of had, like, John, like, I don't know. I kind of told him. I was like, I'm having a bad day, John. But, like, speaking to you on the phone has, like, made me feel so much better. Like, thank you for calling. And it was just. Yeah, it was quite cute, you know. And, yeah, we just spoke about the song, and he was very open to it. And I've been a fan of his work for a really long time, with all the things that he's done with the Velvet Underground and his collaborations with John Cage and also his solo stuff and his stuff with Brian Eno. I mean, he's so prolific as well.
- [53:02]
B
He's.
- [53:03]
A
He's just constantly, like, making stuff all the time. Like, he's always got another idea going on. And I think that that is just. I like working with people like that. I think it's cool how kind of, like, illustrious his career has been. It's very inspiring to me.
- [53:26]
B
Cause you're a fan of Andy Warhol And Lou Reed and I find that so refreshing and modern because their work is still radical. And you've talked about wanting to move forward with your work. And do you find looking back as part of how you move forward?
- [53:45]
A
Yeah, you know, it's funny, I'm not really somebody who has this, like, encyclopedic kind of book of references, especially when it comes to music, actually. Like, I'm not somebody who knows, like, the kind of, I don't know, lineage of, like, all artistry and genres and, like, you know, and maybe I should. I know that some people really do, but I kind of exist in a vacuum in a way, in that sense where I. I kind of, like, gravitate toward the things I gravitate towards, and then I kind of just like, lock in on it. And I don't necessarily know, like. Yeah, I don't know. I'm just not encyclopedic. But with Lou Reed and Andy Warhol and that whole kind of scene, I don't know. I think just from when I was a kid, like, you know, it's like. It's one of the first, you know, like, things you kind of, like, learn about in kind of, like, school, I think, like pop art, you know, it's like, kind of, like, fun to engage in, even if you're not particularly into fine art, like, you know, when you were younger. And I think, yeah, it just kind of took a hold of me, and I was, like, very interested in. In, like, the factory scene and, you know, all of the characters there, like, you know, Jackie Curtis and Kennedy Darling and Bridget Polk and all of those people, and this kind of scene of different creatives doing different things. And I think the reason I was so interested in all of that was because I really felt alone when I was first making music. You know, I didn't feel like I had this group of friends around me at that time who were also doing the same thing as me or wanted to do the same thing as me. And so I think I looked to times like that where it felt, you know, like everybody was kind of like, gravitating around like, you know, a place or like, a city or a group, you know, a group of artists or even. Yeah, even just like, the bars, like, maxes and things like that. Like, it was all very fascinating to me how that worked. And I think, you know, it's also why I was really into Ed Banger Records when I was younger. This, like, French electro record label who, again, it was like, all the artists seemed to be sort of collaborating all the time and working together and throwing parties together and really kind of existing in this quite, like, fluid space, at least how it seemed from the outside. I think it's because I craved that that I gravitated towards those kinds of things.
- [57:00]
B
Yeah, I know. I think that comes late to fashion designers, but it's starting to happen, this collaborative kind of more friendliness and.
- [57:13]
A
Right, right, right. Yeah. It's interesting. I suppose. I suppose there's something about being a designer, a fashion designer, that's inherently kind of insular in a way. I remember when I watched Unzipped for the first time. That documentary is so good. It's one of my favorite films.
- [57:37]
B
Yeah.
- [57:40]
A
And Isaac Mizrahi is kind of, like, looking in the paper, and I think it's. I think I could be wrong. I think there's, like, a article about Jean Paul Gaultier and how he had kind of, like, done a show that. And Isaac Mizrahi was, like, worried about whether the Jean Paul Gaultier show was going to kind of encroach on what he was doing. Would he be accused of copying something like that? And I just thought, oh, my gosh. Yeah, that's so, so stressful. Especially because I think, again, from, you know, my outsider opinion, when it comes to, like, making a collection, it seems everything is such, like, high stakes. And the time period in which you're doing it in is relatively short. And you're. Especially now, there's so many different collections to make. There's, like, all these constant, like, seasons and. Yeah. It just must be, like. Yeah, pretty. Pretty intense. I can imagine.
- [58:46]
B
Because you have this incredible aesthetic, and I wondered what you find attractive in another person.
- [58:53]
A
Oh, well, it's always their personality immediately. It's, like, above any sort of, like, visual aesthetics. I think I really connect and feel attracted to people's humor. They're willing to be quite dry. I suppose their willingness to be passionate about something could be anything. Just to have a burning passion
- [59:33]
B
and
- [59:33]
A
to feel like I could, like, learn something from them, I guess. You know, because I think that's what kind of, like, enthralls me with a person, you know? So, yeah, I would say those are the things that attract me to somebody above. Maybe, like, a visual aesthetic in the beginning. But I will say, if ever I meet a girl who has, like, incredible style, I'm like, we gotta be friends because I wanna steal your wardrobe.
- [60:13]
B
You know, I know I used to have. I probably still got it. I described this syndrome that I thought I had called being friends with the prettiest girl in the school. And it was all about what she was wearing. And I found it really. It wasn't. It really kind of was like a bond because it felt like I would somehow be protected by this person who seemed to know how to put themselves together and maybe something would rub off on me and I knew what my qualities. I'm very sort of soldier. I can be by the side. I can, you know, fend off.
- [60:55]
A
That's interesting.
- [60:57]
B
And. And if. If you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does that kill your attraction?
- [61:07]
A
No, it doesn't. I think I've definitely, like, been in relationships with people who have terrible style. For sure. For sure. I think my husband is. Yeah, maybe like, one of the first people I've been in a relationship with who I think has really, really cool style. And actually, I guess. I guess I. You know what? I guess I did find that really, really attractive when we first began dating. Cause I guess that was like, a new thing for me. Like, not that all my exes were dressing terribly or anything like that. They all had their own kind of thing going on. But I guess. I don't know. I feel like George, my husband, has actually pretty good style and good taste, and he knows what he likes, and he knows about fashion and tailoring and things like that. He's a bit more intuitive to it, perhaps, than any of my previous partners. And that was attractive. But, no, I've definitely dated people who have, like, crazy style. Like, my first boyfriend used to, like, exclusively dress, like Edward Scissorhands. Which actually saying that out loud maybe is cool, you know, it's really, really odd, isn't it? Yeah.
- [62:30]
B
I suppose it's all part of, like, how to feel composed. And if you've got the outfit on, you can go forth, you know?
- [62:39]
A
Yeah. Also something interesting about, like, a uniform look, you know, And I feel like I. I like. I mean, I suppose there are elements of my style that are kind of uniform. Like, I think people always really associate, like, black sunglasses with. With, you know, me now, or they just, like, know that I will possibly be wearing them. But I. I would love to have a uniform, but I just think I like too many things to actually commit to that. But, like, whenever I see Mel Ottenberg and he's, like, in his double denim, I'm like, so good. So cool. Like, just effortless. You're just gonna, like, get up, put that on. Like, live your life. Like, be chic. So fun.
- [63:27]
B
Well, I was gonna ask you something about how you pace yourself But I actually am dying to ask you about your new album cover and how you managed to get such an amazing photograph of three extraordinary people. Yeah, and it looks like a photograph from like a beat poet, you know, someone's photograph they found in Allen Ginsberg's flat or Andy Warhol's factory or something. How did that come to fruition? It's John Cale, Marc Jacobs and Martin Scorsese.
- [64:06]
A
Yeah, I mean, yeah. I mean, even just hearing you say all that out loud, it's like I can't really believe it. I mean, I think for me it's like I really wanted to put people on the COVID who I had had some kind of like personal connection with. Whether that be like them as a person or their work or have worked with them. And so that's kind of how I landed there. Having worked with John and, you know, collaborated with him and having been inspired by him for so long, it was kind of like a no brainer for me to put him there. Mark was the first person who ever gave me a shot, really, in fashion. He was the first designer I ever did a campaign for. I've gone on to do three campaigns for him in kind of like different capacities. And also I just have always admired his connection to youth culture, whether that be through the grunge collection that he did back in the day for, oh my God, Perry Ellis and then fired. That's so kind of disruptor energy. And then just to go on and do your own thing so consistently I think is really inspiring. Or even with heaven doing that and kind of like making clothes for. Yeah, kind of like younger people to kind of like allow them to sort of engage with fashion and like doing those kind of yearbook photos he did with like all of these different people, like in fashion or adjacent to fashion. Like, I think that's cool. That's like really putting people on. And I think that's very special. And then with Marty, I mean, it's like, what do you even say? It's like Martin Scorsese, like, I mean, come on. It's like he's just the one, you know, And I feel really lucky to have been able to have a few conversations with him here and there about film and his films and his passion for films and things that he's seen and loved and. And yeah, I mean, getting them all together in one room was honestly, it was like a very emotional moment actually. And it felt really magical. And one of my best friends, Aiden Samiri, shot the image and we were so nervous before they all arrived. We Were shooting it in New York, the end of April in this kind of big house, and we decided that we were just gonna use, like, the pantry, this, like, tiny little, like, room in the corner of the house. And Aidan and I got there early, and we were kind of, like, pacing around. We were, like, doing some test shots, like, trying out all these positions. But it was. It's funny that Aidan and I have worked together so much now, and I've never really seen him get nervous, and I don't think he's really seen me get nervous either. But we were. We were kind of, like, pacing around, like, counting down the seconds, like sweaty palms, you know? And then. Then they all arrived and kind of came into the room together. It was just. I don't know. For me, it's like I was just so inspired. I was like, wow, these three artists who have each had such different careers, but to me, like, have been so impactful. To me, on, like, the way that I think about these three kind of different mediums, you know, it was just very. It was like a once in a lifetime kind of a moment, I guess.
- [68:02]
B
Yeah. Well, it looks. I mean, it's a really. It feels like a moment in history captured when you look at it. It's really an incredible image, and it's very tantalizing for what, you know, the music that you've made in your. In this new album, which is really exhilarating.
- [68:24]
A
Thank you. Yeah. I can't believe it happened, to be honest. Really?
- [68:32]
B
Well, thank you so much for being on Fashion Neurosis, Charlie. I'm a huge fan.
- [68:38]
A
Thank you so much for having me. I. I've had a really good time. When I scraped my car in that parking garage, I was worried that it could be a long process to take care of it. Like a landscaper's first day trimming a hedge. Maid.
- [69:07]
B
I have definitely already been here.
- [69:11]
A
Now, was it left, right, or right left? Well, maybe I'll cut a path out and find my way back later. But it wasn't like that. I filed a claim in under two minutes on the Geico app, and they handled it from there. It was taken care of almost as quickly as it happened. It feels good to get help quick. It feels good to Geico.