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This episode is brought to you by JCPenney. Yes, JCPenney. And if you've been there recently, you know it's the place to go for jaw dropping looks at brag worthy prices. They've got something special for every style and budget. Not to mention rewards and deals that make finding those hidden gems even sweeter. If you already shop JCPenney, you're already in on the secret. But if not, it's time to ask, Wait, am I sleeping on JCPenney? Shop jcpenney.com yes, JCPenney. And if you're feeling low, do you find you wear more or less clothes? I. I have a friend who when she's down, she wears kind of almost nothing. And I do the opposite. I, like, would just walk around in a shroud if I could. And I wondered if you noticed there's a particular way you dress if you're feeling a certain way. Yeah, definitely. I surprisingly don't really use fashion to cope as much as I think other people do. I love fashion so much, but I think it's something that I do again, kind of feel in the moment. So I'm not strategic enough to like plan out how things make me feel until I have them on. But I think inherently when I'm feeling down, I do end up wearing something, as the girls say, cunt, you know, just, just a hyper, hyperimposed that energy on myself, you know, and so that's how you term it. Cunt. Cunt, babes. Yes. If I'm wearing something short, it's cunt. That's really cool. I love it. You give the impression of being supremely confident and I wondered if you'd ever had any hang ups or any insecurities about your body. It was last week I woke up before my wife Rashida that, you know, and I used to hear birds in the garden and I didn't hear the birds in the garden and I say to myself, I become deaf. So I waited her to wake up and I said, strange, we don't hear birds today. She said to me, yes, it's because it's too cold. So I was happy that she didn't hear birds. So I wasn't deaf. Oh, that. That's. Yeah. So sometimes I feel insecure with my body. I was very fleshy and I had little girl nipples, like jelly bean nipples. And I wanted, you know, BB Gun nipples. But anyway, I had soft jelly bean. Not jelly bean, jelly. Jelly tot, maybe. Jelly tot. You know, jelly tots, they're like little domes. Yeah, it was a little Dome. It was definitely a little dome. And I remember actually that when I was in early high school, I remember that I wanted to wear T shirts, but I was embarrassed of them. So I would tape Band aids over my nipples because they were so. They puffed out so much. So there was that. And then my shoulders were very narrow and my hips were kind of wide. And then in my 30s or late 20s, I think Michelle and I got together when I was 27 or 28. She kind of. She was going to the gym and she. So I started going with her. And so she kind of encouraged me to go to the gym because I was drinking so much too. She thought that I needed to sweat out the booze, which I did, which was a good idea. But anyway, then I got into that with a trainer. And then I started taking steroids and totally changed my body. I mean, the steroids made me big and puffy, but they made the shoulders wider. And they did things, the steroids. And then when I stopped taking the steroids, all of the puffiness evaporated. And all of a sudden, underneath I had this new scaffolding. I had. I had the BB Gun nipples that I always wanted. I had pecs, I had shoulders like it. It was magic. I didn't love the 90s clothes. As a matter of fact, I could have kept anything on the show that I wanted to, and I didn't. And if I did, any of the clothes that I did have, like I said before, I just. I like to turn over. I don't want to keep the same things. I get bored and I don't like a lot of things. I don't have a big closet. I just want things that I go in, I know I can wear. And if I don't wear it in a while, it's gone. But Jennifer used to, like, she still has the same platforms. But I don't mean the kind you're talking about. I'm talking about the wedges, the ones with the rope around them. She would have taken those. She took a lot of Monica's dresses. And she'll say, oh, yeah, we used to wear this on Friends. And I go, well, I mean, it looks great on her. She's a great figure and she's adorable. But I'm like, why would you take this floral little prairie dress from friends? But she holds onto everything. So it's really funny that she did take some of Monica's clothes. I would have taken that cat suit that I wore, like some Dress Up Holiday more than I would take my other Clothes. Who do you find glamorous? I find my business partner and manager and best friend, Sarah Byrne, glamorous. Like she's glamorous because she will go on holiday with a carry on and a pair of sweatpants and the clothes she's wearing on the airplane and two pairs of shoes, and one of them is the Birkenstocks she's wearing on the airplane, and the other is a pair of bedazzled mew mew mew mew mew mews, which is how we call them, mew mew mewles. And she will make, I kid you not, 17 different outfits out of those things. Every. I never see her not looking glamorous, even if she has just woken up in her pajamas. She always adds something to her outfit, whether it's a shoelace or a ribbon or whatever it is. She's just so. I love the way she thinks and it's inspired me so much in the way that I dress. They're not mutually exclusive. Like being intelligent or having intelligence that you know how to use partly in how you dress is so, so much fun. So intelligence doesn't only reside in intellect, does it? I just. I found it really interesting. I realized that that's what these men think. They think that beauty is a kind of tool used against them and a very effective one. They understand it's effective, but once a woman has it, why would she bother with any other. Any other of the tools of life? So that was kind of instructive. But, yeah, I guess living in Italy, watching, you know, literary critics and mathematicians and physicists all on telly, done up in these interesting ways, I found it kind of engaging, just surprising, because I'd never seen anything like that in England. As a model, you can't be very self conscious because your body's kind of not your own when you're a. When you're a vessel for somebody else's imagination. That's so interesting. Like that. Yeah. God. And was that current with it? Was that the current day pictures? Yeah. And I was like 15 and I was topless in a magazine and I was still at school and luckily the face wasn't really sold in Croydon, so I don't think anyone really saw it, but I was still. I know. I mean, they did, they heard and it was kind of like, you know, they took the piss out of my brother and all, like, your sister's got her tits out. And, you know, I think he probably suffered more than I did about it. I was actually redoing re performing the the piece of Vito Cochi seedbed in a Google type. And actually the piece required masturbation of eight hours under the stage. And public can just hear my voice on the top. You know, I take this stuff seriously. So it was complicated because it was like, you know, I had to do this seven hours. I think I have more than five orgasms. It was really difficult because next day I have to do performance completely. Something else. Regina party. I was exhausted. But this piece with Vito Kochi, which he does the same action also all day long. It was interesting because he was producing something. He was producing seed and it's called seed bed and what the woman produce also produce something. Produce humidity. So I wanted to do the male piece with the female energy. My friend Kim, when I told her I'd be talking to you today, she said she'd love to know what underwear you wear. Oh, God, no. My underwear is a straight shame. My mother would call it educated gray. It's been in the washing machine so often. You know, one's hat, one has one's favorites. But I do. There's a very good supplier in Paris which is very sort of basic, called Princess Tam Tam. And they're brilliant and I get a lot of things from there. And heiress when I'm feeling swanky. But do you go towards the. The French lace type or the English sporting school? I like sensible pants. But then if I'm putting on a really pretty dress, like the dress I wore the other night at Schiaparelli, that bright pink one, that was lovely. I won't put my sensible pants on underneath that. I will have the prettiest pair I have. I won't disrespect my beautiful dress by wearing a pair of well educated, sort of, you know, slightly baggy, elasticated jobs from. What was it? Somebody. My security pants, my security knickers. I'm glad that some people have a fetish for those types of things, though. Do they? I haven't met anyone like that. Oh. And I don't think I ever will know. So your husband, he likes a nice. Well, I think you have to ask him that. I don't dare speak in his name. I work with some of those beautiful people in the world, ultimately. And you're surrounded by this idea of trying to find perfection ultimately that you become more. Weirdly, I would become more insecure with my own appearance because I feel I am a realist in what I looked like or something. Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. Like, I kind of look at myself and I kind of see my flaws and I, I understand where my. Not my level. I don't know what, like how, how I am in comparison to other people. Which then does make you kind of a bit sort of insecure sometimes because you are being confronted always with something which is new. You know, the idea, you know, when you're doing fittings with or you're shooting campaigns, you're ultimately trying to find the beauty, even in the strange. Ultimately, I never really want to over process something because I feel the minute I kind of feel like I, I know where I'm at, it's like nearly kind of like vertigo. You're like looking down and you're kind of like, oh, this is where, this is what's happening. And I think it would prevent me from like going forward because I think you'd be like, oh, I'm really happy of who I, you know, I think my. Which is not a good thing either, probably. But my whole thing is, it's never done. I think my. I always feel like no matter what I'm doing, no matter if it's like building a house, being at Loire, being at Chede Dubai, the project is never finished. I think the minute it would be finished, then I think I would be done. You could say that trauma or, or, or what happened to me has created an opportunity for me to do something new. I wouldn't have done this if I hadn't got smashed my headed on Isabella's floor in Rome. Yeah. But it creates an opportunity for you to do something new. I mean, I regret what happened. I wish it hadn't happened, but it, it's given me a new lease of life with the writing and the opportunity to write with Carla or to write with Isabella and to write stuff that I wouldn't have said previously. So it's a, it's a, it's, it's a late stage flowering, you might say, that's come out of this terrible occurrence. But also. Yeah, I mean the terrible occurrences is where we're all going and the kindness of strangers, of the carers and the nurses and the doctors we're all going to, going there. So I feel I'm writing about a common experience, one that most people have had in their families. I, you know, most of us have had accidents in our families and people have died or where you are going yourself as well. Yeah. And how you'll cope with your own deterioration and your own eventual death. I had to write about this. You know, he was dead two days before. She asked us constantly, do you want a drink? And we said no, we thought that was the worst. But then we realized she wanted a drink and I would drag with her. We all get drunk. That was. That was completely crazy, but also incredibly good in a way. It was like. Yeah, it was like a relief or something was released there, you know. And then writing about that is the first kind of real transgression I've done because situation was so charged with everything. And this was. You shouldn't do this, you know, but it was so good to do it like a reality, rather than this kind of awful rigidity, you know, just this fear, really, that you describe all the way through, the fear of your father and. Yeah, I think that I learned everything, I mean, from my mom. She was really well organized. Yeah, yeah, she. She worked in cinema and she was the PA of the boss of this company. And she was the person in the family that was really well organized and. But I learned from my dad the freedom, you know, And I'm pretty good because I grew up like, working and I learned maybe at the beginning from mom, but after also from all the, you know, the people that work with me. And it's a beautiful job, but you need to deliver something at the end. So it's. It came very natural for me. Yes, I understand what you mean when you say that Maya grow up with her dad that didn't care about the time, didn't care about, you know, the material thing. He didn't care about money. He didn't care. Yeah, he. He knew about the time, or he managed the time by the sun. Gosh. So I was always waiting for him. Maybe there is a part of me that refused to. To be so disconnected, in a way from everybody, you know, because we were all slaves of him. Because an appointment with him would be a hard thing. You know, he was always late. And I remember him saying, oh, it's not me, it's the. This city. So many buildings. They covered the sun, the shadows. I mean. I mean, he was always like, refusing, in a way, the. The urban life. Talking of which, do you work out? You're looking very spelled. Never once, never been to Jeff in my life. Really. You're looking very spelled or can spelt. Oh, Nicky. Well, only you would be able to make an asset out of that. You look so well and marvelous. I didn't have very bad chasm at the moment. The doctor had made. The oncologist had made a mistake. And when I was finally operated on by the famous Nata Ali, who's head of the nhs, he had to make an Incision there, all the way down. Huge. So when it was being sewn up, I just said to him, listen, Doctor, can't you take a few more inches? And he did. He said, you won't have a belly button. I said, who the fuck cares? And he pulled it. It's never got. It's never got away. God, never come back. That's amazing. I. I don't go to the gym. I don't do any of that stuff. The only activity I do, which is relatively recently, I think I've been doing for about two years or so, is. Is walk to the. To a lake and swim in the lake. I mean, that's. And that's not like. That's a sort of gentle. That's much more to do with the water being cold than. Than actually doing sort of exercise as such. There's an exhilarating feeling, isn't it? I. It's. It's catastrophic, you know, to jump into. I mean, if you have a. If you. If you're a sort of person who can find mornings difficult or have a slightly gloomy temperament that they don't, like, swim in cold water, it's. It's literally impossible to feel depressed if you jump into freezing water because the attack on the nervous system is so extreme. It just blows all. All that sort of stuff away. All of. All of the kind of interior. The awful interior conversations that you're having about yourself and about the world or whatever are obliterated. I do a cold shower every morning for that reason. Every day. Me too. Every after the hot, I think, am I really gonna do it? And I do it because I know it gets rid of this sad feeling that I. That's right. How long do you do? Well, I do two minutes. Yeah. I'd like to do three, but I'm doing two. You don't have the time and too much else to do. Yeah. There's always something to strive for. So I'm striving for three minutes. Todd Haynes. What a genius. Genius. I mean, there's a strange ask. You have to say yes to that, don't you? I mean, it was just brilliant. And you play a boy very well and it suits you. And I wondered what adjustments you make within yourself to incorporate being a man. Because it wasn't just you playing a man. It was so much more subtle and well, it was so liberating. First, for starters, because I was playing him at, you know, in one of his most sort of iconic, visually iconic periods, you know, when he went electric. I lost a lot of Weight. And so the clothes were feeling. Cause he was raked thin himself. And quite, in a conventional sense, quite feminine. You know, big hair, small body. And he, you know, he was wearing a lot of heels and quite embellished shirts. And so I lost a lot of weight and so the clothes felt differently on me. So I think I was moving differently anyway. And then there was a scene on a bed in a hotel room, and a friend of mine who was working on the film says, put a sock down your trousers. I went, you said, it'll change the way you move. And it really did. Suddenly I had another thing to contend with. I must try that just for fun. Just because. Just put a sock down to trials of see what it. See how it changes the way you move. And it did. And so I did that for the rest of the shoot. And I was really. Yeah, I was really grateful for that really simple piece of advice. It really helped, actually. I can imagine. I mean, it's totally, you know, couldn't be more alien, could it? No. Yeah. And it was a bit strange at first, and then I got used to it. I don't still have a sock to wear my trousers, but. This is a paid advertisement from BetterHelp. Feeling overwhelmed can make it hard to remember what actually makes me feel better. There are so many helpful tips out there, and sometimes that's confusing too. What to choose? Should I make the bed or go for a walk? But then I have lots of work and feel stuck about what actions to take. When I asked my therapist what to do when I feel overwhelmed, he said, you could think of it as having a lot to do rather than being overwhelmed. He knows what I am capable of, and I found this very helpful. As the largest online therapy provider in the world, BetterHelp can provide access to mental health professionals with a diverse variety of expertise. Talk it out with BetterHelp. Our listeners get 10% off their first month@betterhelp.com neurosis. That's betterhelp.com neurosis. I was conscious that I wanted something very lynch way. The coloration, the patina of lynch. Incredible visions in photography, in light, in colors. So I thought out of politeness, I have to ask him that he will say no. And then I will try to find someone that I'm thinking would be a good thing. So I went, we had a drink with David. He was in Paris. And then I said, well, I have a little bit of a project I wanted to speak to you about. And I totally understand that you will say no. You can say no, but I still need to speak to you about it because I've been thinking about. You say, what is it about Christian? And I said, well, it's. I have shoes that I wanted to be photographed. Shoes not to be worn, but really shoes around fetishism. The ideas, multiple ideas on fetishism. And he says, okay, let's do it. So I said, what do you mean? He said, let's do it. Where are the shoes? I said, was I in my head? Why? I said, because I wanted to ask you first if the project was. Becky said I would do the shoes. He said, let's do it. God. It was as simple as that. And then he says, you have to develop. You have to show me the sketches. And I'm sad because I lost them. He lost them. I'm even more sad, but at least I'm not responsible. He loves it. And so I did every shoe. And then I explained the kind of category of fetishism. It was big. It was belonging to. So I show him and say, okay, do the shoes. Needs to be worn on girls. You choose the girls. But one thing. No bones. No what? No bones. What did you mean by that? I say, what do you mean by bones? He says, the shoes are beautiful, but they're extreme. Me photographing these shoes, if it's a skinny girls model style, it's going to look that they come out of, like a torture chamber or something horrible. So it should not be. It should not be with skinny girls. I don't want to see a bone in those girls. That's the only thing. No bones. I say, okay, there are two ways you're gonna come up. You know, if you're dealing with heroin, you're either gonna look like a victim or a cunt. I don't. I don't fancy either route. So therefore, I kind of avoid talking about it. And I've gotta say, I never think about it anymore. I literally never think about it anymore. But, you know, until I'm called upon to do so, and I really am not. I'm not a wise guy about it, but I have seen it. I have seen NA and the 12 step program work for so many people, you know, people who I thought were a lost cause. And so I can't recommend it enough, really. I was terribly bullied as a kid, you know, queer black kid on the south side of Chicago. And not really having formed my identity and trying on different expressions to find out who I am. And I think having a look sort of gives you courage to navigate the world. And it can also Be a form of armor as well. Yeah, totally. I think we're so through advertising, especially Post World War II advertising, a lot of us are shamed if we're not a certain body type or if we don't have certain features or. And especially someone like myself, being a black trans woman of color, I've never had. I call it mirrors of affirmation. And so you can't see what you can't. You can't be what you can't see. And so I, for so many years, tried to be so many different things because I wanted to be seen. And at the end of the day, I really realized that through a lot of trial and error. Who was I dressing for? Was I dressing for the male gaze? Was I dressing for protection? Was I dressing for self expression? But I found out a lot of my insecurities were actually my strengths. The things that I were bullied for or laughed at or not accepted for were the things that made me unique. So I just decided to put a fucking gold star on it. And also your insecurities shift. Your body shifts, your taste shifts, your eye shifts. What I liked five years ago, I wouldn't be caught dead in. I've also learned to edit. The longer I walk the planet, it seems, the more clarity I have of my shifts, if that makes sense. It's funny, I know I went blonde a couple years ago and it was like. It was like a light bulb was on over my head in the way that, like, men were so interested in it. And it was just like, you know, it was like they could see me all of a sudden. Really, that's all it took is like going blunt. So it's so silly, you know, but that also, you know, you can get lost in that for sure. And I definitely feel like I did. It's kind of thrilling, though. It's a useful thing to know these things, how to switch on and off. It's great. We didn't have many black girls doing editorial. So you had when they found Iman. Yes. And little by little, Naomi comes on the scene in the 80s and she's one of those girls. But we didn't have a lot of that. But Remi just Pinnace came from France and he started Americanale. He just had a. He had a real appreciation for blacks, beauty, brown girls. So he started putting them in the magazine and putting them on the covers. And that challenged Conde Nast and Hearst. So they had Bazaar, we had, you know, Mademoiselle, which you don't have anymore, Glamour magazine, Vogue, and what wind up happening is that these girls all of a sudden started having. Now those magazines wanted to have those black girls because they had to compete with this French magazine that came, and he was killing it. I mean, he had no problem putting black girls because there was nothing for them to lose. And it was brilliant. Yeah. So then all of a sudden, we have all these black girls working. Now all of a sudden we have, you know, Vogue taking, you know, girls on photo shoots before it was just studio shoots. Black girls. Oh, I really enjoyed designing. I didn't really realize how much I enjoyed it. And I really learned so much from you. But I was amazed because you were so specific. Suddenly you said, no, no, no, we can't have the sleeve finished there. It has to finish at exactly this point. And this is how I like the neckline. I can't have it any other way. And it was like, you're such a. Your demeanor is so gentle, but you know exactly what you want. And you. You're such a powerful force. And that was the first time I'd ever really seen that. When. When we did that collaboration, I think it was in 2010, I didn't really know that I was so decisive. It kind of took me by surprise as well, because in my personality, I can be very vague, you know, as a person, and quite sort of like drifting off and dreamy and that kind of thing. But when it came to design, I was just so clear in my mind what everything should look like. It was quite strange, even for me, because it's like a whole other side of my personality I didn't know I had. Yeah, it's true. And I didn't also realize it was a good thing. I just thought I was being really bossy. I was changing four or five times a day. And when I was coming back from school and my, you know, my mother was furious, I was going to dinner, you know, like a simple dinner, family dinner, you know, But I was, like, stealing ties from my father closet and, you know, go to dinner with the tie, and, you know, they were all, like, looking at me, my sister, they were already in pj. I was like, showing up, you know, to die. And they were like, wait, what is going on here? You know? And then if I thought that my mother didn't wear what I thought she would have, I made a change. And that was also, like, a disaster because, you know, I was really insisting. I mean, like, I made her really uncomfortable until she changed, and then, you know, she couldn't really. I mean, poor thing. I mean, she Couldn't really process how much right. I was, what I told her to change and. But, you know, at that age also you. You do things. Yeah, I mean, I guess I was. I was processing very, very fast. But I don't know, I wasn't really realizing the power that I had for that kind of, you know, instinct, let's say. Do you and Lila still do Fashion Police? Yeah, I did it yesterday. I was not just me and Lila, just me on my own. I was like. I was in the car and there was this woman and this man, and they were walking down the street and she had like a. I don't know, it was the weirdest look. And I went, I bet. Where are they from, those people? They're definitely not English. And he had a big camera, so I knew he was like a. He was a tourist. And they were walking down Camden High Street. She had a Port pie hat and a yellow Chanel backpack, tights, leather shorts, and a yellow Nike high top trainer. And it was extraordinary. And I really was like, nina, Nina, Nina, pull him over. And then I was like, where are you from? And they went, France, because we had a bet that they were Canadian. Canadian. I was like, they're definitely not from Paris for sure. I'm terrible. It is a bit. They were nice, though. I said, oh, bonjour, you know, and, you know, have a lovely day. I wasn't rude, but I do like it. I do like going like, wow, what were they thinking? I love the new. Not like, I don't like doing that. I don't want to be judgy, but, you know, when you just go like, nino, Nino. Like Fashion Police. There is a. There was a TV show, wasn't there, called Fashion Police. Was there? Maybe I'm making it up. Maybe I should have one. Yeah, you should have one. We have one together around the streets of all the different countries, fashion. And then like the really good ones, like, wow, where did they come up with that? Yeah, but it's like, it's the code, isn't it? That's what I love about what you're describing. Sometimes I get on the tube and I see some. Someone wearing just amazing look, and I wonder what they're. Everyone's always doing something. It's like, how am I going to affect. And I suppose in fashion there's so much code. I hate code. What bit of it don't you like? Because I see it as shortcut, like what you're describing, a shortcut. But. Oh, tell me what the code. Oh, I hate fashion codes. Yeah, Like, I hate, like, oh, this bag's in fashion. So everybody designs the same bag and sells the same bag. I hate that kind of thing. Like, oh, this is fashionable. So everybody has to have that in their shop. I really don't like that. You know, I mean, I don't like ankle boots. I really don't like them any particular. And I know many people to. To wear them and with. With dresses. Right. I think they're a bit of a disaster. Can you describe what it is you don't like? I think it's a shortening. They basically, in my view, shorten the legs, don't you think? Do you think. It depends on. Do you have a whole lot of them in your bedroom? They've only got a pair of white. Am I sort of wading into too? No, it's a very. It's a. It's a popular look amongst sexy girls who wear ankle boots. But, yeah, I. I don't like that. I don't. I mean, I just don't like that. Yeah, I know the look. I mean, that's just me. It's nothing actually wrong with them. It's just a sort of thing. For example, do I sound like some sort of fascist? No. It's amazing how affecting it is when someone wears something that you don't like and how you have to reconfigure your intention towards them. Is it over? Or if. Do you kind of find something else or demand they take it off? If you are in that privileged position. Possession. Yeah. Or, or, you know, understand in some way that friendship or whatever is really a kind of serious series of sort of small forgivenesses. And, and it's okay, you know, it's. It's not the end of the world. Ankle boots aren't the end of the world. They're. They're adjacent to the end of the world. And. But, but, but kind of forgivable too, right, Nick? And the ankle boot thing is. Yeah, he hates them. He really does hate them. So, yeah, I don't wear ankle boots. And the one time I did, that's the time he frog. Marched me into Chanel and bought me some shoes to go home in so that I'd take them off whilst we were out because I had ankle boots on. And so that was fun. I bought me really nice pair. So funny. I don't really mind what anybody else wears as long as Nick doesn't wear jeans. Oh, really? I really don't like Nick wearing jeans. And he's tried so many times and I'm like, no, Take them off. So, yeah. No jeans for, for Nick or for you? I've never seen. Yeah, I. I don't know. I don't have anything against jeans. I just don't like Nick wearing them. You've talked about red being your favorite color. Yes, yes. Colors describing emotions. And what, what does red describe for you? Oh, everything. Yeah. It's like aliveness. Yeah. And it's, I don't know, like threat and desire and purging and. I don't know, it's like all of these different processes and like cycles that happen in life that fluctuate at different moments depending on, like, where you are within yourself. And it embodies like, so many different things for me. I think it's maybe one of the. The only colors that covers so many different, like, emotional states for me personally. And so. Yeah, and it's just like warmth. I don't know, it's like, it just radiates in this way that I really respond to. And it's weird though, because I don't really wear red. I was thinking that actually it's funny how you can love a color and. And then you don't want it on you necessarily. But yeah, it's just somehow overwhelming or too much or. I see, you know, the way you use it and the thing of it being about desire and drawing towards and threat is. Is such a good description of something that matters so much because caring about things deeply is also such a risk, isn't it? Yeah. And if you fancy someone and you don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction to them? Oh, totally. Totally. I remember one day meeting the most gorgeous person and basically we. We start kissing. One of the best kisses ever. And then the person took his sweatshirt off and he had a T shirt with three buttons. I think you call it a Henley in English. And I stopped. I couldn't. I couldn't. I could not kiss him any further. You set the gold standard for your business. Your website should do the same. WIX puts you at the helm so you can enjoy the creative freedom of designing your site just the way you want. Want someone to bounce your ideas off, Talk with AI to create a beautiful site together, whatever your business, manage it from one place and tie it all together with a personalized domain name. Gear up for success with the brand that says you best. You can do it yourself on wix. I have. I have a forbear. Buttons. I'm just. You can't put my hand. I can't put my hand in a box. Of buttons. It's impossible. So for him to wear those. This T shirt with three buttons. No. He must have thought I was mental. But I could not continue. I just left. Quite extreme, isn't it? It is, but you describing that you have a phobia of buttons is. It gives its. It makes it kind of forgivable in a way. So you're not. And not understandable for him, trust me. You had the most wonderful laugh. When did that start, Bella, I can't believe you're asking me about a laugh. It's just like hearing a fountain cascading. It's just so uplifting and so much fun. Thank goodness. I don't really know what to do with my laugh, to be honest. It's. It's been. It's been commented on a lot over the years, actually. And when I'm nervous, it'll. It'll rage. But also, I tend to find a lot of life very quite absurd. So I laugh a lot. And I. I really love to laugh. I really do. I really love funny people. Funny people are also very sexy. But yes, the laugh. I'm in denial about the laugh, actually. I remember when I was at drama school, I was with my great friend Benedict, and we were upstairs stitching costumes in this old Methodist building, and there was an extension, a black box onto the back of the building, and they were performing the third year shows in there. And so we're in this stone Methodist church up in this little room, stitching, laughing together, really laughing. And then someone came from backstage while they would. It was like a matinee show all the way to the front of the building, up the stone stairs, down the corridor into the classroom, and said, gwendolyn, we can hear your laugh on stage. Stage. Oh, God. And I think that's when I sort of realized it was an issue. It was at that point, it was penetrating stone and traveling, you know, 100 meters. And Stevie Nicks is quoted as being a fan of yours, too, and you planning something together? Maybe. I don't know, Bella. Maybe. We don't know yet. Even you saying that out loud is like, crazy, crazy thing to hear. Yeah. She's always been such a huge inspiration to us. She's a big inspiration to young artists. You know, there are so many people who cite her, and I mean, her music and her look, you know, fashion wise, she's a big influence and she just never stops and is. It's great that she's kind of, you know, found this kind of connection with. With you all and has such lovely things to say about how you. How you work as a band and how you complement each other. What the things I read that she'd said, but I know you clearly can't say anything about it. But anyway, it's something to be excited about going forward. Yeah, we. We absolutely love her so much and have always been just in awe of her. We've seen her so many times in concert, and I. Every time I'm in awe, it's just incredible.