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- [00:01]
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- [00:30]
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- [01:09]
Alex Khonsani
Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Alex Khonsani.
- [01:19]
Bella
Hello, Bella. Thank you so much for having me.
- [01:22]
Alex Khonsani
Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
- [01:28]
Bella
Today I'm wearing a top from Connor Ives and some of my grandma's lingerie and a pair of Elias shoes. And I love this shirt because Transamerica babes.
- [01:42]
Alex Khonsani
Oh, it's a very good combo. I love those slips. They're really difficult things to make as a designer, but you can only find the old ones, which are made en masse, and they're, I think, the most charming, beguiling garment that anyone can wear.
- [02:01]
Bella
Totally.
- [02:01]
Alex Khonsani
Especially with the legs.
- [02:03]
Bella
Thank you. Yeah, no, he found this shirt and, like, wanted to give it to me and he, like, made it into this beautiful shirt and I've been waiting to wear it. I wore it during fashion week once and now I get to wear it on your podcast. And I'm so happy to be here wearing it.
- [02:19]
Alex Khonsani
And am I Right? You're 21?
- [02:21]
Bella
I'm 21 years old, yes.
- [02:23]
Alex Khonsani
Okay, so you're 21 and you're 1 of the most successful models in the world. You started really young, bursting on the scene, age 12, becoming the youngest transgender model in the world. And what was the bursting on the scene moment?
- [02:39]
Bella
I mean, I really just saw fashion and it was something so beautiful to me and something so far away, just. Cause there was no point of reference for me or anyone like me. So I had the opportunity when I was young to, like, do a shoot with one of my friends, and it was a really fun experience and it made me realize how beautiful it could be to be in Fashion and how creative it could be. And that's what I fell in love with, was just the creativity aspect of it. And, like, working with someone to make an image and it being surrounded by clothes for me was just so glamorous. And I think I had that experience at a time in my life that I really was motivated to do something. So that was what really pushed me, I guess, to be where I am today. And I still hold onto that a lot.
- [03:25]
Alex Khonsani
What was the first piece of clothing that you longed for as a child?
- [03:31]
Bella
As a child? It was this dress from Target. It was this Cinderella dress, this pink Cinderella dress. I have a picture of me wearing it, but I remember, I mean, I used to just wear random clothes. I mean, it wasn't feminine at all. And I remember having this one moment where we had this celebration in our town where it was like traditional German and I wore lederhosen. And I never wanted to fucking leave the event more than this. It was horrible. I had the hat with the feather, and it just wasn't chic for me. I wanted something fabulous, like a gown. And then I went to Target, I think, later that week, and found this dress. And it was just like, it was fabulous. And I was asking my parents for it. I don't remember exactly how they gave it to me, but they have the dress and there's all these pictures of me with these, like, little fluffy little kitten heels and this dress and. Yeah, I wish I had that dress, though.
- [04:28]
Alex Khonsani
That was a consolidating moment of, like, this is what's going to work for me. Yeah, I had that moment with a pink gingham shirt. I got to kind of accommodate my boy girl sides totally. And I mean, when I think back on when I was 12, I was having a crisis of alienation. And when you were 12, your parents sent you on a summer. A trans summer camp. And that seemed incredible amount of understanding. And I wonder what that was like for you, because, you know, in a way, to be given that much acknowledgement at a young age, I wondered if that felt like a burden as well as a kind of access to liberation.
- [05:18]
Bella
Yeah, no, I mean, it was amazing. I think my parents had a really good understanding of how to support me. And I think the basis of it was just love. I think that's something that a lot of parents of trans children should follow as well. Because, I mean, I can say it changed my life to have them have these moments. I'm still friends, like, with a lot of people from that camp, specifically one of my best friends Ella, we've been friends since, I think, 2014 from this camp. And it's just such a beautiful experience to have peers around you, especially who understand the struggle that you go through, and especially when it's your family, having them support you, it's so important. And I'm blessed that they did their own research as well, because it wasn't something I had to teach them, which I think kind of changed the game because they understood me in the same way that I understood myself, because they cared to ask questions and do research. And I think being a parent, all you want, or all I would hope you would want is to love your kids, you know, And I think that that's how I always felt from them.
- [06:23]
Alex Khonsani
So it must have been an amazing moment where they suspend what they assume about their child and just embrace what you. How you educated them into. This is who I am.
- [06:44]
Bella
Totally. I think assumptions, though, can be a bit difficult as a parent because you can never assume much about your child. I mean, you have dreams and hopes of what you want them to be and how you want them to. But I think what I hear when parents come up to me a lot and are like, I want my trans child to be successful, like, what do I do to give them those tools? It's just love.
- [07:05]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah. I mean, in the end, love is always the answer to everything. It kind of is just the compass, and everything will work out if that's what people are prepared to kind of remember.
- [07:19]
Bella
Totally.
- [07:20]
Alex Khonsani
And was fashion a thing in your household? And you have such an incredible sense of style? And does that come. Does that come from either of your parents? Or is there someone who. You feel it sort of trickled down in the genes?
- [07:35]
Bella
Yeah. I mean, I grew up in San Francisco. I feel like style was very. At least in my household, it was very like vintage, old. People appreciated that kind of stuff. I wouldn't say I was in a fashion household at all. The first time I ever heard of fashion was when I went to an exhibition for Jean Paul Gaultier. And I think it was like 2009 at the DE Young Museum. And it was such an eye opener, because that, for me, was the first time I really got to see fashion as an art. And not just as what you wear, what you put on, but I think definitely the style of being resourceful with your clothing is something that I used to this day, and my parents definitely inspired that. But I don't know if I call that fashion.
- [08:17]
Alex Khonsani
How do they dress? Does either of them have a kind of. Kind of distinctive way of Dressing or just a cool way of putting things together? Or are they quite matter of fact in their outfits?
- [08:29]
Bella
I mean, they're very traditional in the sense like my dad loves a flannel button up. A pair of jeans, either Converse or Sperry Topsiders. My mom is a clog queen. Jeans and a vest.
- [08:44]
Alex Khonsani
That's probably my generation. That's all you wore at school.
- [08:47]
Bella
I love it though. I mean, it's fabulous and I think it's, it makes them feel comfortable, which is what fashion should do.
- [08:53]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah. And you were really good at math at school.
- [08:58]
Bella
You did your research. I mean, I would say so, yeah.
- [09:01]
Alex Khonsani
But do you practice that still? Do you still use it like, you know, sort of relaxation technique or like learning another language? Some. You know, you do so much and you, you have these moments in between. I wondered if that's something you kind of like play with.
- [09:20]
Bella
Honestly, I should. I've been thinking about it recently. What I've been missing is like printing out a like division sheet and just like doing math, which is so freaky of me because every one of my friends is like, babe, eek, we hate math. But no, I haven't, I haven't done math in a second other than like taxes, which.
- [09:39]
Alex Khonsani
Well, even if you can do that, that's amazing.
- [09:42]
Bella
I mean, it's not just me doing it, but I make sure, I triple check, you know, gotta make sure everything's correct.
- [09:49]
Alex Khonsani
But those numbers aren't alienate. They're your friends.
- [09:52]
Bella
Exactly.
- [09:53]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah. Because people talk about math being very close to music, and that's the only way I could imagine getting in. I just have a sort of blindness.
- [10:02]
Bella
But yeah, I mean, what I always loved about math was that it was either right or wrong. That was my favorite subject because, you know, for English, it was like an interpretation. They would see what you wrote and say, oh, well, I think you could have done this better. That better. But math, it's like you either got it correct or you didn't. And this is what you need to do to make it correct. Which for me as a student, I don't know, it was just easier to understand for me. And I also somehow was always a little bit ahead of the curve. So it was like, it was nice when I felt like I actually understood everything.
- [10:33]
Alex Khonsani
You know, I've never heard it described like that in my whole life. And it really makes it mean something so much more than it. Because I was bad at it, I just dismissed it. But the idea of it being so definite, it never crossed my mind. But that's so interesting that you like it and are good at it, and that's what it embodies. So rare that there's an opportunity for real certainty. And I suppose that's where it. That's where it lives.
- [11:05]
Bella
Totally.
- [11:07]
Alex Khonsani
And the actress Gwendoline Christie said that the job of clothes is to be more yourself instead of a diminished version. And is there something you love to wear every day that reminds you of this?
- [11:19]
Bella
Hmm. I don't have one specific item, but I think something that just makes me feel confident. I mean, I love heels. As of recently, I'm a very tall woman, so wearing heels sometimes, it was something that I kind of was almost ashamed to do. Not ashamed, obviously, but it's not something that I would always go to because I'm six foot, whatever. And wearing any heels brings more tension. But for me, it's something that I've reclaimed and now I appreciate it because it's like I walk in the room and, you know, I'm here anyway, so might as well be here in a fabulay issue.
- [11:53]
Alex Khonsani
You know, I know I'm a bit of a addicted to a favelia shoe as well. Is that where you start with an outfit, with a shoe or.
- [12:04]
Bella
Not necessarily, I think, honestly, yes, I do. Usually it's the shirt, but it ends with the shoe. And then I wear a shoe and I'm like, actually, let me change the shirt.
- [12:12]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah.
- [12:13]
Bella
So I should start with the shoe.
- [12:14]
Alex Khonsani
It informs everything to do with, I suppose it changes your posture. So it informs what you're gonna wear.
- [12:21]
Bella
Yeah, no, it's interesting. I've been doing a lot of, like, events and galas and stuff. And for the couture fittings, they always tell you to wear a heel because it changes your posture and it, like, will change the way that the dress looks when they custom make it for you. So, like, your body's in the posture of when you're wearing heels, which I never thought about because I'm always in a heel. I just thought it was how I always was. But then I put on a loafer and I'm a different woman.
- [12:47]
Alex Khonsani
It's just impossible to wear or have what you need to wear a ball gown without a heel, because you need that way your back shapes, you know, just the way your hips go and.
- [12:58]
Bella
Exactly.
- [12:59]
Alex Khonsani
And then it goes up into your brain and you can kind of pull it off.
- [13:02]
Bella
Yeah, totally.
- [13:03]
Alex Khonsani
Well, you can anyway.
- [13:05]
Bella
Oh, you definitely could too. Just need a good chill.
- [13:08]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah, exactly. And whose walk did you watch in fashion shows and think that's going to be My walk.
- [13:18]
Bella
I mean, Victoria's Secret was something that I watched a lot growing up, but I didn't really watch it until I had already started fashion. So, I don't know. I don't think I have somebody that back then I was referencing now. I mean, I've gotten into fashion. I have a lot of people that I aspire to be similar to, as friends and as colleagues, whatever. But I think at the time, it was really kind of just. I don't know, I never thought about, like, referencing someone else, which I hate to say. Cause I'm not trying to act like someone's super original. At the end of the day, a walk is a walk. But I think that, like, it was just confidence, you know, I wanted to exude confidence and feel powerful and, like, portrayed that when I, you know, walked. So I don't know. I. Yeah, I think it was just the people that I was around as well.
- [14:05]
Alex Khonsani
You know, just an innate thing that you had waiting.
- [14:10]
Bella
I guess so, yeah.
- [14:12]
Alex Khonsani
Because I suppose, you know, when I was starting my label and it was the era of the supermodels, and watching them and how each one, like, how Naomi walks is just so incredible, and the different kind of atmosphere. And I wondered if you'd studied any of that on YouTube, but it seems like you were just born with it.
- [14:38]
Bella
I mean, I wouldn't say I was born with it. It definitely took some time, but I think just being around again, like, when I first started fashion, I was around very sweet people. I think so many people, when I first started, were so motivated to give me advice. I mean, like, being someone young in fashion, everyone saw that as a vulnerability, which I'm blessed that when I started, people saw it as that, you know, because I'm. I was watching other episodes that you made specifically, and it's like, there's fashion. Back in the day was such a different world, you know? So I started at a time where I feel like people recognized that I needed advice. And so I always listened to it. And I'm lucky. It was fabulous. People that had fabulous walks, you know, so.
- [15:24]
Alex Khonsani
And if you're feeling low, do you find you wear more or less clothes? I. I have a friend who, when she's down, she wears kind of almost nothing. And I do the opposite. I, like, would just walk around in a shroud if I could. And I wondered if you noticed there's a particular way you dress if you're feeling a certain way.
- [15:47]
Bella
Yeah, definitely. I'm like your friend. Like, I love to wear nothing always. So, like, when I'm feeling low and I want to feel extra. Whatever. I'll just wear something fabulous, which is usually short, usually corset, a heel. But it kind of depends. Because I surprisingly don't really use fashion to cope as much as I think other people do. I love fashion so much, but I think it's something that I do, again, kind of feel in the moment. So I'm not strategic enough to, like, plan out how things make me feel until I have them on. But I think inherently, when I'm feeling down, I do end up wearing something, as the girls say, cunt. You know, that's good. Just a hyper. Hyperimpose. That energy on myself, you know?
- [16:35]
Alex Khonsani
And so that's how you term it. Cunt.
- [16:38]
Bella
Cunt, babes, yes. If I'm wearing something short, it's cunt.
- [16:41]
Alex Khonsani
That's really cool. I love it. And how do you feel about being naked? Do you like to keep something on to accentuate the feeling of nudity or.
- [16:53]
Bella
I mean, being naked is a human nature. It's part of human nature. It's a human trait. I love to be naked, but it just depends the setting. I mean, I think that as a model, it's crazy. Cause we're all so used to being naked, you know, Like, I'll try things on in the store and, like, forget that I have to go to the changing room. And I just, like, pull my clothes off and everyone's looking around like, what the fuck is this girl doing? But I think it's kind of. I think it's. There's something that I think society has pushed on being naked that's made it sexual. And I think it's so interesting because being naked for so much of. I mean, like, as a model, you're always changing clothes, you're always trying things on. You're always taking on and off clothes. And I think that having that experience for so much of my life, it's really taken that sexual aspect out of nudity. And so I don't really. I don't mind it. If anything, it's liberating. It's beautiful. I mean, like, human bodies are human bodies, you know, so I'll pop a titty.
- [17:49]
Alex Khonsani
It's true that I hadn't. Because the only time I found that was when I sat naked for my father when he was painting me. And I found it just felt completely normal. But if I'm naked with a guy, I feel I can't be naked. Even when I'm on my own, I'm definitely not there. But if it's part of a purpose, then it's just another state, like you said. It's true.
- [18:20]
Bella
Yeah, it's interesting. I just think that, like, society has pushed us to believe that nudity has some connotation with sexuality or sexual whatever, when I don't think it does, you know? And I think it's such a beautiful thing to realize that you as a human, whether you're wearing clothes or not, is still you as a human. You know what I mean? And clothes just give a representation of what kind of human you are and what kind of human you want to be, you know?
- [18:43]
Alex Khonsani
And I love that line in a Nick Cave song that says, we're all naked underneath our clothes and it makes everything much more interesting.
- [18:52]
Bella
Totally.
- [18:53]
Alex Khonsani
And how's your introvert extrovert ratio? Because you seem like a naturally outgoing person, but I wondered if there's an introvert lurking inside.
- [19:04]
Bella
I mean, I think I'm definitely an extroverted person. I try to be introverted when I can, but I don't think it's. It doesn't come easy for me. I have to try, you know? But, yeah, I'd like to spend time by myself, but when I am by myself, I feel like I'm doing extroverted things, like I'm focusing on work or whatever.
- [19:23]
Alex Khonsani
But is that how you recharge when you're on your own rather than with other people?
- [19:29]
Bella
Yeah, I would say so. I mean, I enjoy. I enjoy working and I enjoy being by myself and I enjoy. That's what I love so much about the way my career has came, I guess, is that, like, it is kind of about, like, what I want to do online as well as, you know, what other people give me in terms of work, which is like, such a beautiful thing because it's given me such a sense of independence from the beginning. But I don't know. I mean, when I recharge, it's usually just like. I mean, I can be, quote, unquote, introverted by myself or with people around. I don't think it changes whether they're there or not. But I think that being alone does kind of give you a sense of stillness that you don't get with other people.
- [20:06]
Alex Khonsani
So because I read that you said back then I felt like I knew everything or I was at my most educated. But looking back, the way I thought about the industry was so different. And the last three or four years have opened my mind. And what kind of things have opened your mind?
- [20:25]
Bella
Totally. I mean, being trans in an industry that hasn't had that kind of representation. It's interesting, you know, because at the end of the day, that isn't who I am. It's a part of my identity. But, like, I'm so much more than just that. And I think that for the longest time, I was kind of put in a box in a way that I couldn't control. And having a glitz and glam image of, like, what it would have been for me to represent my community, it was so different, you know? And good experiences and bad experiences have kind of showed me what it means. And it comes from yourself, you know, you can't trust other people to understand what you want, and you can't trust other people to give you that voice. You have to take it for yourself, even when it's difficult, you know? And that's why I think being an extrovert in fashion is a very big blessing, because at the end of the day, when you take a step back, it's a job, you know? And I love what I do. It's an amazing job, and it's a beautiful job, and it's artistic, and you get to meet amazing people, you know, but it's still a job, you know? So you can't change the way that you speak or change the way that you act. And I think people value that so much.
- [21:33]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah, it's true. And it's. It's important to be able to keep things private and separate. I. And not give everything to. Not necessarily a cause, but just, like, your working life. Otherwise, well, it's just important to keep other things back for yourself and.
- [21:55]
Bella
Totally. Totally. That's why I tried to learn the trumpet, but.
- [21:58]
Alex Khonsani
Oh, really?
- [21:59]
Bella
I mean, I tried in theory. I'd, like, looked up videos, but it's expensive. It's like $1,000 to get a nice trumpet.
- [22:07]
Alex Khonsani
It's the difficult thing. I tried that once, and it's like your cheeks feel like they're going to fall off, don't they?
- [22:13]
Bella
Did you do it, though? It was good.
- [22:14]
Alex Khonsani
No, I didn't. I did other things, but, yeah.
- [22:17]
Bella
I ran into someone yesterday in London Fields, and it was this, like, girl who came from band practice, and I was like, she was learning the violin. And I was like, oh, babe. Like, what are you learning? Whatever. And she's like, violin. I was like, oh, I tried to learn the trumpet. She goes, no one wants to learn the fucking trumpet. Two years ago, I stopped it. I'm like, oh. She was in, like, school. I was like, work, God.
- [22:38]
Alex Khonsani
Like, the violin is the hardest thing on earth.
- [22:41]
Bella
I know. I Was kind of like, wow, you really seek for that. So fuck the trumpet, let's go. Violin. Straight to the source.
- [22:47]
Alex Khonsani
No way. The two hardest instruments out there. It's like, everything's quite difficult. But it's good trying out difficult things anyway, because then suddenly being the master of them is such an enjoyable feeling.
- [23:07]
Bella
I think it's also just such a beautiful thing to be able to make music. Like, I grew up in a musical household, so it was always really beautiful to have music, especially when you created it or when it came from something special inside, you know, and you've done.
- [23:20]
Alex Khonsani
More courageous and exciting things than most people have done in a lifetime. Do you find being a kind of a role model is a burden? And I wondered if you have the jokey TikTok to sort of remind people that you don't have all the answers.
- [23:37]
Bella
Yeah, I mean, I think that was kind of an inherent message that came with it, because I don't think it's a burden at all to be a role model. But I guess the more success I've had in my career, the more I realize how much I really do, you know, impact people, you know, And I think it's. It's a responsibility that maybe I didn't sign up for at the beginning. I wanted to represent. I wanted to be there to, you know, kind of go through the uncharted. And like, I loved fashion, and I still love fashion. It's something that I wanted to do, and I wanted to be someone who was able to do it, being myself and being proud and loud about being myself. But I think it's definitely important to remind the industry and the people that are watching and whatever that, like, it's so. It's so hard to be a token of anything, you know, being. I'm just a part of the community, a small part. You know, there's so many different variations of, you know, being trans. And I think it's such a beautiful thing to be able to represent. But it's also important to remember that, like, I'm not at all a true representation of, you know, my community or, you know, who inspired me when I began, you know. Cause everyone has different stories. So I think that me having the ability to be funny online, it's really special because it does kind of have that message, I guess, like, unintentionally about, you know, reminding people that we all are learning, you know.
- [25:10]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah. You're so good at it. You have such a brilliant acting ability. I mean, thank you. The things that you come up with to parody and Satirize and just be funny. I mean, it's ingenious. It's. It's. I really enjoyed watching these kind of characterizations you did and how free you are. I mean, just so good. I love it. And have you always been able to do that? Cause it's such a talent. And also, I love that it's like, hey, remember, you know, I'm just. I'm a kid, you know.
- [25:50]
Bella
Yeah. I mean, my dad's a comedy king. He's always had the same humor as me, really. I grew up around a lot of. I mean, not comedy, but I guess comedy, definitely. And, like, I mean, his favorite show was Monty Python's Flying Circus, which I feel like looking at the way he, like, told me something recently about it, and I definitely feel like I mirror that kind of comedy where it's goofy. I remember he had all these posters of, like. I don't remember what it is, but, like, the walk. Do you remember this? The guy with the briefcase that always walked. Weird. John Cleese, babe. That is what I give. I realize I'm really giving Monty Python Flying Circus, and it's unintentional, but go down to the root of comedy. It comes in your Persona. It comes in the way you carry yourself. And I think my dad and I mean, my mom, my whole family, they were always really funny. But my dad, for me, always reminded me that, like, that's what comedy is. That's what being funny is. It comes from how you carry yourself. It's not just about what you say, you know?
- [26:43]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah. I mean, when I was watching your Tiktoks, I thought about Monty Python and love. Oh, God. I mean, I thought it's quite unusual for an American person to be able to take that. But, you know, it's like you. You got it. You got all the strange, anarchic things that seem particular to English people, and it's like you've just taken it into a different medium and on a different level, and it's so inventive.
- [27:16]
Bella
Yeah. I think in another life, I was from South London, babes.
- [27:19]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah.
- [27:20]
Bella
I think I'm a broccoli girl at heart.
- [27:24]
Alex Khonsani
You could have been in the Bromley contingent. That's where all the, like, David Bowie and Susie Cave and all these kind of amazing people in the punk days, they all came from this small South London place.
- [27:37]
Bella
Totally.
- [27:38]
Alex Khonsani
And you featured in Charlie XCX's 360 music video with Julia Fox and Chloe Sevigne. That looked like a sort of fantasy girl's dream. And I wondered what it was like working with the most popular girls in town.
- [27:56]
Bella
I mean, it was fabulous. Been a fan of Charlie for as long as I can remember, and it's amazing that I got to meet her. And she also knew of me and was a fan of me, which was so beautiful. And same with Chloe. I mean, all of those girls are so. They're so real. And I think that's what makes them so cool, is that they don't have that unattainability. And obviously they're fabulous and cunt and like, we could never be Chloe Sevigny or Julia Fox or Charli xcx, but at the same time, it's like they remind us that we can be ourselves, which is almost just as beautiful, if not just as beautiful. And I think that that, for me was what made me feel so connected with these girls, was that, like, I almost felt a part of it because I was myself, not because I was cool or I had this bag or I was. You know what I mean? Which a lot of people, and at least in the fashion industry, like, it can get kind of to that level of shallowness where I feel like we're being celebrated for being cool by the work that we do or who we hang out with or who we fuck. And it's like, you know, it's not about that at the end of the day. Like, it's about what kind of person you are and what you value. And valuing yourself is something that speaks volumes, you know, so.
- [29:04]
Alex Khonsani
And about talent. And everyone in that video was so talented. And just watching you all playing together like that and just having fun, but everyone having such a gift, you know, it's. I love that aspect of, you know, how modern women are really playful and just can mess about and totally and.
- [29:29]
Bella
Be a bit messy and it's fine. You know, I think that fashion for so long and like, life, everyone wants. Puts this, like, pressure for being put together, you know, and we're not put together. You can put up a facade as much as you want, babes, but, like, come down to it, we all make mistakes. We all like to have fun. I mean, I can say in my life, we all like to party a little bit. You know, it's important to take time to give note to that and appreciate that and be around people that also appreciate that in whatever way that makes sense for them.
- [30:01]
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- [30:34]
Alex Khonsani
I think it's essential. Do you ever get shy?
- [30:41]
Bella
I would say so. I definitely get shy in certain situations, but I don't know recently. The things that have made me shy in the past don't make me shy anymore. I mean, I remember the last time I was really shy, it was this red carpet where I had to interview Nicole Kidman, Zac Efron. And Zac Efron was my childhood crush, and Nicole Kidman was my childhood icon. So that was something that I was quite jittered about. And it really was fine. I mean, everything went smoothly, and I finished that and wasn't nervous. And so I did the Met Gal a couple weeks ago for the first time. And I thought it was gonna be such a stressful and scary experience. And I really felt like it was just another day almost, which, like, I didn't expect. You know, I thought it was gonna be a big deal and I was gonna be nervous and whatever. But, like, I don't know, it was really chill.
- [31:37]
Alex Khonsani
I mean, you had an amazing outfit, so.
- [31:40]
Bella
Thank you.
- [31:41]
Alex Khonsani
You just look, like, so perfectly, you know, it was a joy to see you, actually there. Everyone looked pretty amazing for that Met.
- [31:50]
Bella
Gala, but it was fabulous. And it's also nice to have a good outfit, because I think it. I mean, at the end of the day when the Met Gala day comes and you start getting ready at 9 in the morning for something and 9 at night, like, at least you can say everything's decided. The hair and makeup and everything is decided, which is like, at that point, babes, all you have to do is wake up.
- [32:09]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah.
- [32:09]
Bella
Which I can do. A little bit late, but I can do it.
- [32:13]
Alex Khonsani
And you wore, in my estimation, the top dress in Heider Ackerman's Tom Ford show, debut show in Paris. And I was there. I was sitting between Kate Moss and Daphne Guinness. And we were all obsessed with that pale yellow dress with the cutout and the slit, the leg slit right up to the hip and the way you walked. And I wondered what you were. What were you thinking about when you were walking?
- [32:42]
Bella
Well, when I was walking that show, it was really nice because Jacob the stylist and Heider Ackerman, like, they're. They're very honest people, and they're really clear about what they want, you know? And I did the fitting the day before, and I was walking very poised like a lady. And I think for this collection specifically, he wanted it to be about the clothing. Almost not dreary, but have an essence of realness that I think a poised woman wearing a dress like that, you know, wouldn't have carried. So they told me to slouch my shoulders forward, which I've never been told ever in my fashion career. Everyone is always like, shoulders up, head back, whatever. And he told me to put my shoulders forward and look down, you know? And so I was just trying to embody that vibe of almost like, not a villain, but, like, powerful and confident and sexy, but not in the way that the Tom Ford shows that I used to watch were, you know, which was. It was really beautiful, and it was impactful, and I think I had the best look for that show too. So it was really special. I wanted to show it off and sell it, which I heard that I did. So.
- [33:47]
Alex Khonsani
You did. You did. It was a real moment, you coming out in that dress. And it's interesting, you describing what you did with your body, because you just had this. It was totally compelling. It's like a magnet that brought all the attention together. But it was so low key. In spite of being so dazzling, it was real, kind of meteoric.
- [34:13]
Bella
Thank you.
- [34:13]
Alex Khonsani
Explosion in outer space.
- [34:17]
Bella
I love that description. Something important, I think, as a model, too, to know where and when to give certain energies, you know, because the Internet loves a certain type of walk. The Internet loves when someone's cunt and hippie and confident and sexy. But, like, there are certain collections and designers and moments that, like, it almost takes away from the clothing. And ultimately, the job is to sell the clothing and to enjoy doing it. And, like, for me, I like to have a little act. I think it's important to ask questions to everybody there saying, what do you want? How do you feel? What does this collection mean to you? You know, I've always been that person. Even before I had a reason to ask anybody any questions. I was like, what does this collection mean to you? What is the references? What's the story? And that gives me an idea of what characters to give, you know, and it's important to do that. And, I mean, all of the models who've been doing it forever, you know, me and Maria Carla talk about this. It's like, it's important to have the ability to shapeshift within, you know, it's something that can take you from being a model to being a vessel for someone's fashion, you know, which is. It's a difference for sure.
- [35:26]
Alex Khonsani
Also to remind people of the person within. Because in the end, it's people who are interesting.
- [35:32]
Bella
Right?
- [35:32]
Alex Khonsani
And clothes are, you know, clothes are interesting when that person is somehow radiating something.
- [35:40]
Bella
Exactly.
- [35:41]
Alex Khonsani
If you fancy someone, don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction to them?
- [35:48]
Bella
Not at all. I've done some. Done some things with people who have atrocious, atrocious fashion sense. And I think that honestly, if it makes sense for the person, there's some times where I'm like, babes, the fit is atrocious. You got on. I don't even know. Just something that I could never see myself wearing. You see me putting on a man if you were a mannequin. But it makes sense for you, you know? And I think that if you have the confidence to wear something ugly that's hot because you're confident. And we need more of that in life. Need more people who are confidently able to wear something that isn't cute, you know, or they think it's cute, but maybe other people don't and they know that and they're like, who gives a fuck? And I've noticed this. I was just talking about this earlier. What I love about people in the UK is they wear colorful tights. I don't know if it's just my friend group or the people that I've been around, but it's like I've seen so many fab fucking girls in colorful tights. And it's like, I'm in New York, I live in New York, and there's just. Everyone is obsessed with the row, which I am too, but like the row with no tights, you know? And like, it's a different ball game when you see that little bit of character come into it, you know, it's not just wearing clothes to disguise yourself, it's wearing clothes to represent yourself, you know? And like, I'm not going to lie, I'm not a tights girl, but I think that the way that people wear it makes me want to be a tights girl, you know?
- [37:13]
Alex Khonsani
God, I've missed this tights moment because we used to wear colorful tights back in the day. And yeah, it's so good. And. Oh, God, I remember that band, the Slits, they used to wear these colorful tights with black fishnets over. And then sometimes they used to. I remember one time seeing Them, and they'd sewn these tiny little wooden cups and teapots and things onto the tights. It was just the coolest thing ever.
- [37:44]
Bella
That's the type of fashion that we need more of, is like representation, you know, it represents you as a person.
- [37:52]
Alex Khonsani
It's not just great for that because it was just so, like, you know.
- [37:55]
Bella
I mean, teacup on a legging work.
- [37:58]
Alex Khonsani
It's so good, isn't it? There were these titchy little tea sets that you could get, and then there they were all over their tights. It was just a brilliant seems just. It was so full of, like. It was so full of contempt, in a word, like, yeah, if I sell a teacup to my type, I can do that.
- [38:18]
Bella
I might get a sewing cap after this.
- [38:20]
Alex Khonsani
Yes.
- [38:21]
Bella
I'm inspired now.
- [38:23]
Alex Khonsani
What's the best present a love has ever given you? Because you've got. You've got such a great eye, it must be quite hard to find something to totally disarm you.
- [38:34]
Bella
I mean, I think a surprise is always something that disarms me. It doesn't quite matter what the item is. I mean, yeah, I think something that surprises me, you know, something that's thoughtful enough that it kind of gets me not confused, but a little bit jostled. I think that that's always a good gift. You know, I'm trying to think of an example, but my mom is always really good with thoughtful gifts. You know, she. I think I remember having a constant problem with overweight suitcases. And this is just a. But she got me a scale for my suitcase, and that was like, the fabest fucking gift, honestly. I was like. I opened it up and I was like, wait, babe, this is gonna change my fucking life. You know? And it's those little things that she thought about, and it's so beautiful when someone puts enough time into that where you open it up and you're like, wow, this actually means something to me personally, you know? Cause, like, I would love to say someone got me a Birkin, and that was fabulous. But, like, I mean, maybe it would mean something to me, but I think that in itself was, like. That was the same as a Birkin, you know, for me, a scale for a suitcase. So shout out to mom for getting me my Birkin.
- [39:50]
Alex Khonsani
So you've got a Birkin, though.
- [39:51]
Bella
I did get a Birkin, and that.
- [39:54]
Alex Khonsani
Was a present from you to you.
- [39:56]
Bella
It was. Yeah, yeah. I did the Hermes show last season, and it was my first time working with Hermes, and it was a big deal for me. To have a Birkin at the show. I guess. Like, I walked in and was like, I really want the fucking Birkin. Like, please let me walk with the Birkin. Because online I have this obsession with this fucking bag. I don't know why. It was just like this, I guess, image of, like, fab ness. And so I was always like, oh, I just want to have this bag. And so I put it on. They tried to change my outfit, and I wouldn't let go of the bag. And the stylist came over and tried to take it away from me, and I wouldn't let go of the bag. He was like, I guess she's wearing the bag. So. So I did. It was crazy. But I'm happy I did it because I walked the show. And one of my friends does the creative direction, image direction. I don't quite know what the term is. But I begged him, I pleaded to keep the bag. And he said no. He said, baby, this is Hermes, but I can get you an appointment. Give me your number, and I'll message you. And the last day of Fashion Week came, and I got a message that said, I don't remember what it was. The biggest ormes were Saint Honore. He said, Saint Honore, 11:30am don't be late. And I was, like, shitting my fucking pants. I was like, oh, my God, this is the time I'm gonna do it. And it was so beautiful. Cause, like, all of my friends had known about it. And so I told the casting directors and everyone. I was like, don't book any of these girls. The last day of Fashion Week, everyone's coming to the Hermes store, and we're all going to be there for this moment. And it was the same day as the Louis Vuitton show, so obviously only one of my friends came. But, like, babe, it's fine. We still had such a beautiful time. And, like, I went into the store, and it was raining outside, and I was wearing these pants, these jeans that I wear all the time. And they were. It was wet outside. And so I walked through the store, and I was leaving a trail of mud and dirt through this, like, Hermes store. And there's all these ladies with blowouts and, like, crocodile birkins on their shoulders screaming for an appointment. And I, like, was walking straight to the VIP suite to get my interview, because it's that kind of fucking thing where they have to interview you. And, yeah, she sat down and interviewed me and asked me what I did and what I did in my free time and what I enjoy and who I hang out with. Like, all these crazy questions that I didn't realize until, like, 30 minutes in that it was a fucking interview. I thought she was just trying to get to know me for some reason. And then I realized she was trying to get to know me to see she would give me this bag. And then she was like, oh, I'll check. You know, it's Fashion Week, so we're on short supply. She came in with the bag that I wanted, and I was like, I answered all the questions, right? And yeah, so it was a really beautiful experience. And it was a present to myself. Cause I've never spent that much money on anything in my life. To be granted, like, it's a lot less money than I think I expected it to be. You mean? I mean, I hear about all of these crazy, like, $40,000 purses, $10,000 purses. Like, it wasn't that, but it was something special to me where. I mean, if it was $40,000, I would have found a way if I could. But it was just a special experience. And it was nice. Cause my friend Sasha was there and, like, she knew how stupidly important it was for me to have this moment. So. It was beautiful. Yeah, I know. I got my fucking Birkin, and I can shut up about it forever.
- [43:26]
Alex Khonsani
That's so good. God, it's such a great story. It's funny, the things that do become important, you know, that obviously it's not world peace or anything, but they're just things that make you feel somehow grounded and powerful and relaxed.
- [43:44]
Bella
Totally.
- [43:45]
Alex Khonsani
And that sounds like one of those things.
- [43:48]
Bella
Yeah.
- [43:48]
Alex Khonsani
I mean, I'm not a amazing being interviewed as if you're trying to get into Live in the Dakota building or something.
- [43:56]
Bella
I think it was crazy. Yeah, it was crazy. And I didn't realize it was that kind of thing ever. I mean, I know that it's difficult to get this bag from Sex and the City, but I didn't know it was the kind of thing that, like, they'll ask you, like, who your friends are and, like, what you do on a Saturday night. Like, babe, I was acting so fucking classy. I was like, my friends are all so old, and on Saturday nights, I just drink red wine and listen to jazz music. And they were like, really? And I was like, yeah. Meanwhile, I'm at the club listening to Lady Gaga with my homegirls. Like, but it worked. I came with a turtleneck, which, like, it's not very me. A turtleneck and a brown coat.
- [44:40]
Alex Khonsani
Oh, my God. I bet you Looked amazing.
- [44:42]
Bella
Thank you. I tried.
- [44:44]
Alex Khonsani
I love a turtleneck and a brown coat. Such a good combo. And you've described the fashion editor Carine Roitveld as being the pinnacle of chic. And I wondered what it is about her that you find so dazzling.
- [44:59]
Bella
I mean, she was the introduction to fashion for me. My first show I ever did was Tom Ford. I think it was one of his last shows before he stopped being as much part of his. His line. And like, it was so beautiful to see how she did that. I mean, I didn't know who she was. And I remember seeing this woman with a side part and a pencil skirt come in and grab a juice. And I was like, she's fab. Let me ask her how the juice is. So I was like, babe, how's the juice? She's like, it's good. I was like, should I get one? Which one should I get? She was fucking fab. She was like chatting it up with me about this juice and I was just like, this is really a chic woman. And then I come to find out it was Green Rotfield, which, like, I didn't know her much about her and I did my research and she. I mean, like, my friend just did an interview for her at her house and she sleeps on a leather bed in a fucking sleeping bag. Like, that's so chic. That's so chic. Oh, my God. And she loves to sit on the floor, which I love to sit on the floor. So I kind of am connected with her, like. But she does it in a heel, you know, she only has heels and like, I don't know, she has this. It's not a costume though. But it feels like it's almost a costume because she's so pinnacle ized chic, you know, It's a fucking heel. It's a pencil skirt. It's a great shirt, It's a great coat. And I mean, where I'm from, San Francisco, it's a sneaker and a baggy jean and like a zip up, you know. So that being my first introduction to fashion, it was like, it was really inspiring in a sense. And I mean, I see her around and it's just like she's always pulling a fucking look.
- [46:35]
Alex Khonsani
She is.
- [46:36]
Bella
She's doing it for her fucking self, which is so chic. I love it. I love it.
- [46:41]
Alex Khonsani
It's like people go on about French women having this thing and when you see her, you think, wow, she just embodies. It's so classy and so chic. But she has this Sort of punk thing as well. Like her eye, you know, the eyeliner and the green eye and. And just her proportions. She. And the spiky heel and.
- [47:06]
Bella
Yeah.
- [47:07]
Alex Khonsani
And then when she's vaguely normal in that type of get up is just like, you nearly have a breakdown. It's so interesting to see someone just being in their normal life with such a strong, such a powerful kind of way of. Of dressing.
- [47:27]
Bella
Totally. And it's so authentic to her, which I think is what makes it so chic for me, is that, again, it's not a costume, you know.
- [47:33]
Alex Khonsani
No, there's no. You don't imagine that. And clearly not from what your friend said, that when she goes home, she changes. She's just like.
- [47:42]
Bella
She sleeps on a fucking leather bed with a sleeping bag. Like work. That's fab. That's fab. Like you really. She's so dedicated to the chic ness that she'll pull out a sleeping bag. Like, this is. We need more of this. We need. Try this.
- [48:00]
Alex Khonsani
Oh, God, you've got so much light shining on you and from you as well. And I. And you're so beautiful. And I wondered if you have a technique that you use to switch off and be less visible.
- [48:16]
Bella
I mean, I think it's kind of easy. It's really just about the life that you live. You know, for me, I live in a part of Brooklyn that I'm not gonna see anyone unless I want to, you know, so it's a proximity thing for me. I mean, I know I could go for. In New York terms, I could go to Soho and it would be a Kiki. And I could wear, like, a mini skirt and a heel in Soho and, like, you know, be super visible. Or I just wear, like, you know, jeans and sneakers. And I like to skateboard, which is something not a lot of people know. But, like, I do it a lot in Brooklyn and, like, just go around with my friends and I wouldn't say a lot. That's a stretch. But, like, sometimes. And it's really freeing and it's so beautiful. Cause, like, I mean, someone in a hoodie on a skateboard is so common there that, like, no one takes a second glance, you know? So in terms of physical, you know, separation, I think that's important. But, like, mentally, it's also just about spending time with yourself and loving yourself. And I think that that's what I do when I really need to distance myself from being seen. You know, it's like, be seen by myself, which sounds so deep, but it's real.
- [49:26]
Alex Khonsani
You Know, I'm just sort of almost speechless. I'm so impressed.
- [49:31]
Bella
My agents hate it. And also I'm like 6 foot. Whatever. I'm not gonna say the number because I've told people different numbers my whole life. But yeah, I'm like a tree. Like if I hit a rock, like takes a good five seconds.
- [49:43]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah.
- [49:44]
Bella
You know, so it's an interesting sight, for sure. I can assume, but I love it. It's so freeing, especially when you're going down a hill. I don't know. I love a mode of transportation, sfab. And it's like there's a sense of childness or child, I don't even know what the word is, but I feel like a child. I haven't been excited to get up out of bed and do something besides an event or whatever or something that involves phone or society in so long. And so when I got into skateboarding, it was like, it was so amazing. I woke up in the morning during summer and was like, I just want to put on my clothes and go fucking skateboarding, you know, it's really freeing and it's so independent, you know?
- [50:26]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah, it seems like that. I mean, it seems fascinating. I watched a documentary about Tony Hawk's on the plane not that long ago, like his whole trajectory and then. Did you see that?
- [50:45]
Bella
I didn't see it, no.
- [50:46]
Alex Khonsani
That's really interesting.
- [50:47]
Bella
Yeah, I would love to.
- [50:48]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah. He goes through a whole thing and just when you think it's the end of the. Of the film, this whole other part of his life begins. And anyway, in fact, Graydon Carter, who was the editor of vanity fair for 25 years, and he was talking to me the other day about how he thinks that the ultimate luxury in the future will be privacy and no social media presence.
- [51:20]
Bella
Totally.
- [51:21]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah. I was wondering because you're so brilliant at social media and tik tok, it's like literally watching these little plays and these skits and they could come from any era. They're so intensely interesting and informing. And it's like micro Shakespeare.
- [51:39]
Bella
It's just so good at Shakespeare. That's an artist.
- [51:42]
Alex Khonsani
I wondered if you could imagine being without that, what would it be like?
- [51:48]
Bella
I mean, I think it's for me just a mode of self, like showing myself, showing my personality, you know, feeling my judge, as the girls say. And I think that without it, it would be the same. I would find another mode. I think it's just like for me, especially at the beginning of my career, it was so important because, you know, when you start as a Model especially, you're given so many rules, and people tell you what you should and shouldn't be saying or wearing or whatever. And that was one thing that I had control over for myself, you know? And people always told me, like, you know, you should delete it. People love a mysterious girl. I'm so fucking happy I didn't, because that's something that now it's like, oh, my God. Like, she's the only girl that has a TikTok or whatever. The only girl that does this. And it's like y' all were telling me she's the only bitch that isn't mysterious. And now look, now you love. And it's just like, it's important to have a voice like that and stand on what you believe in. For me, yeah, that's kind of a personification of that. But again, without that, it would be completely fine because I would have that same sense of, you know, want to portray myself for myself by myself, you know?
- [52:59]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah. You seem infinitely resourceful, I must say. Thank you. You could become a mathematician. I mean, it seems like you have a lot at your. At your disposition. And. And I. I love the language you use as well, how you take certain things and then they just become part of your. Your kind of vernacular. And how do you just. How do you choose? Like, cunt's one of them. I like that.
- [53:26]
Bella
I mean, it's definitely my community. You know, trans women have such a specific vernacular. It's very heavily derived from, like, black vernacular as well. And I think that that was kind of the community that I was surrounded by when I was growing up and learning how to speak and learning how to be myself. Um, so, I mean, it kind of. It's. It mostly comes from that, but then also, I mean, inside jokes as friends are things, you know, Especially since I've been in London. Like, the fucking slang here is so fab.
- [53:57]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah.
- [53:57]
Bella
Like, I found out you guys call vaginas wizard sleeves.
- [54:01]
Alex Khonsani
Oh, I've never heard that.
- [54:02]
Bella
A wizard sleeves fab. I don't know. I heard this and I was like, wait, like, it is a magical pussy, babe. Like, yes, it's beautiful. It's magical. It's a wizard sleeve, babe. Like, yes, that's so good. And that recently has been my new gag. Like, it's like, oh, babe, you are wizard sleep. Like, you know, so I'm. I'm trying to carry. Carry on, you know, the legacy of the UK slang.
- [54:25]
Alex Khonsani
It's. It's so good. Have you. Is there anything else, like, I've never heard that one.
- [54:31]
Bella
I mean, Minj. I love Min. All the Bromley girls I'm seeing on TikTok, because that's mostly what my TikTok is, is like the UK comedians because they're so fucking funny and they're so blunt about it. What I love about European comedy is that everyone's so dead ass.
- [54:47]
Alex Khonsani
Yeah.
- [54:47]
Bella
Whereas like in the us it's almost goofy. Like people are put like, it's like, haha. Like I don't know. But in the. In the uk, it's like they're so matter of fact with the fact that they're being fucking stupid that it's like. I don't know if I'm laughing at you or with you, but like that's. Well, obviously I'm laughing with you because you're making the joke, but I don't know it's funny. But yeah, the bromny slangs, babe. Like you girls. Eight. Eight.
- [55:17]
Alex Khonsani
That's another one. Well, I'm glad. I'm glad we're supplying you with some material that's useful to you and thank you so much for coming and being on Fashion Neurosis. It's so.
- [55:33]
Bella
Thank you so much for having such a beautiful conversation. I feel at peace. This couch is fabulous. Feel the energy of all the people that have been here and the energy of you. So, so grateful to have been here today.
- [55:43]
Alex Khonsani
Well, me too. It's. It's wonderful to have you there taking up the whole space, the whole couch. Yeah, that's what I.
- [56:09]
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