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- [00:01]
Beth Ditto
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- [00:28]
Capella University Representative
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- [01:06]
Bella
Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Beth. Ditto.
- [01:17]
Beth Ditto
Thank you.
- [01:17]
Bella
Bella, can you tell me what clothes you're wearing today and why you chose them?
- [01:22]
Beth Ditto
I'm wearing an H M dress and these boots that I love by Stella Luna. They're my favorite. They kind of always make me feel rough around the edges in a good way. So they kind of, like, always make me feel put together, I guess. And they're comfortable.
- [01:43]
Bella
They look good on the sofa as well. I always love to have the shoes on the sofa, even though it's controversial.
- [01:51]
Beth Ditto
Yeah, but, you know, it's your house. It's your.
- [01:54]
Bella
Yeah, exactly. My rules.
- [01:56]
Beth Ditto
It's your house and you live here.
- [01:59]
Bella
And you're the lead singer and songwriter of the indie rock band Gossip, which has sold over 10 million records worldwide.
- [02:06]
Beth Ditto
Is that the real number?
- [02:08]
Bella
Yep, that's what I read. Or is it more?
- [02:13]
Beth Ditto
Oh, for sure. No, Definitely not more.
- [02:16]
Bella
10 million records worldwide and you've recently reformed, and you're also famous for your amazing outfits and your campaigning for LGBTQ + rights. And you describe yourself as shy. How does that manifest?
- [02:34]
Beth Ditto
Shy? I don't know if shy is the right word. I don't know how to explain it because I'm somebody who can't stop talking no matter how much I want to stop talking. And so, I don't know, it's almost like autopilot or something. Like, it just. Things just come out and, like, they just. I don't know. It's hard to explain. I never felt like a very smart person or, you know, I'm not refined and I don't really give a shit. You know, I realized lately, like, in my later. My later years that, like, part of the problem is that, like, honestly, like, I've, you know, I'm always known for interrupting people and, like, just talking all the time. And I'm loud. Being loud is just, I think growing up in a big family and just having a big voice, I think. But, you know, I feel like it's like I talk so much because it's kind of like my version of being quiet. The way that shy people sit in a corner or, like, you know, introverts at a party. I'm really. Most of my closest friends are introverts. But there's a relief when I'm out in public and someone is louder than me and more like, hammy than me, because I'm always like. But to me, it's almost like people being silent. It's hard. It's not that deep, but. But I learned that I have ADD and so that. And that my brain thinks so. I mean, it sounds like you're like. My brain is just so fast, but, like, it moves on to things so quickly, but is also like. I don't know. It's very weird, but I'm just like, oh. Like, I didn't know people thought different, like, had different thought processes. I don't know. It's. I don't like to perform, and I don't like intimate, like, performances. Like, I don't like when it's just like, three people in a room. I don't. There's some. I don't like compliments. I just want to hang out, you know, I just want to chill. I just want to have a good time. But sometimes I think the way that sometimes people's nerves shut them down or whatever. But it's good for what I do.
- [04:50]
Bella
It certainly is. And that does make sense. The shyness coming out as being talkative. It's a way of. I suppose it's like a deflect. Yes, it is, exactly.
- [05:05]
Beth Ditto
It's like, don't look at me. You know, not that I have shame or anything, but I think it's probably trying to make people comfortable or. I don't feel like it's like a chore. It's not like I'm like, oh, God. But it's just like. It's just one of those. It's just the way I am.
- [05:22]
Bella
Yeah. What was the garment that first changed the way you felt about yourself? What age were you when you noticed that connection between what you were wearing and what it gave you?
- [05:33]
Beth Ditto
God, that's a good question. God, it's a really hard one.
- [05:38]
Bella
You know, when you feel like there is a piece of clothing that somehow makes sense of who you feel you are.
- [05:48]
Beth Ditto
I don't think there is just one, because part of. I think why I enjoy, why it doesn't feel like a chore or like, why I enjoy, like, putting on eyeliner, like, doing. Actually, I'll tell you what, instead of it being a garment, it's liquid eyeliner.
- [06:14]
Bella
Really?
- [06:15]
Beth Ditto
Yeah.
- [06:15]
Bella
Yeah.
- [06:16]
Beth Ditto
And it was on tour with Slater Kenny, that their manager at the time was this. Really. She was either the manager or their pr. She was great. And her name was Julie Butterfield. She's so beautiful. And all I had was, like, these kohl pencils, you know, And I'd always really been into. Like, I wanted to. I always wanted to have dark hair. Like, from being a little girl, I wanted to look like Mary Tyler Moore or Priscilla Presley. And my mom had this really beautiful dark, like, auburny hair, and I had, like, mousy brown hair. And I still do, but I just wanted dark hair so bad. I just. So I was like, cat. You know, cat eye. Like, the cat eye was my jam. Because I just loved the way, you know, I loved the way Diana Ross looked. I loved the way, you know, like, Barbra Streisand and, like, all these just beautiful. Twiggy. I mean, later, it's not like I knew, but I. I just loved early mid-60s eye makeup and just. I loved bouffants. I loved them. I think it was an old soul because I was a kid of the 80s and I thought it was cool. But I'm still this way. I'm like. I like things to be put together, you know, and within reason, like a little up, whatever, doesn't matter. But for myself, I like to be put together. Maybe it's the Southerner in me, you know, but when Julie Butterfield was watching me, it was the first tour I'd ever been on, you know, I'd never been out. You know, I'd taken one airplane in my life. I was flew from Arkansas to Olympia, Washington, in 1999, and this great, amazing band asked us to go on tour. I had like, one cold pencil, almost white. Like, literally white cover stick that my mom used to use, too. And then I've used it on my lips. And I was trying to do cat eye, but I didn't even have a sharpener. And I remember Julie came. I think it was New York. She came up to me and she had Lancome Liquid line liner, and she had just bought one. And she was like, I want you to have this. Because she was like, I see the potential. And it changed everything. It changed Everything. Because I'd always been a kid that liked hair and makeup. I love that still. Like, I'm just like, you can be wearing whatever as long as your hair and makeup looks good or the way you want them.
- [08:45]
Bella
Did your mum have a good, like, hair and makeup thing going on or did you just invent that for yourself or see it somewhere else?
- [08:55]
Beth Ditto
My mom is very naturally beautiful. Very naturally beautiful. I think almost everybody thinks their mom is the most beautiful woman in the world. You know, I think. I think. I hope, you know, like, I hope so and not because their mom deserves as much as that, you know, they deserve to have a good mom. But she, you know, still. My mom's 68, and I just talked to her two days ago. Her hair is to here, and, like, she just puts a headband in. She. She taught me how to put on makeup. Like, you know, you want. You don't want, like, to look like you're wearing a mask. It's like, you don't want a baseline.
- [09:36]
Bella
Yeah.
- [09:36]
Beth Ditto
You know, very good tip. And it was a good tip. It was really good. And she was all about blending. So I knew, like, what not to do. But my mom is very, like, she does not wear makeup on a daily basis. She hardly wears. She never wears dresses. She hates them. She has three girls. I'm one of seven kids. She has three girls. And she always says, I don't know where these girls came from, where I got these girls. Like, not the girls, but how we are, all of us very much like to put a look together. We like. We love makeup, we love hair, we love, like, beauty products. Meanwhile, my mom is like, the kind of person who's like, oh, whatever. Cold cream is the cheapest. And her skin is flawless. She's so beautiful, and her skin is just so beautiful. I just hope that I can be as, like, she looks so young and she just. Yes, she's incredible. And she has those beautiful 70s eyebrows that everybody's trying to get rid of now, you know, but she still has them. And it just opens her eyes up so much. So it's just truly beautiful. So she didn't. It wasn't her. I think I always say, for me, it was not the MTV was outlawed or not. Like, everything was local, right? So, yeah, I grew up. Grew up in the Bible Belt. I grew up in a dry county. I grew up in the middle, you know, just a small town. And the local cable company wouldn't, you know, stopped offering MTV after a few, like, a couple years.
- [11:10]
Bella
And so really.
- [11:11]
Beth Ditto
God, yeah. And so There was this, like, little time capsule of, like, Culture Club, you know, lack of Virgin Thriller, you know, Billie Jean and Cyndi Lauper, like these really striking. I mean, Weird Al, you know, like, like really striking, graphic, like, images. And that, I think, made me know that there's another world that I'm not seeing every day as possible. And then. But it kind of like. Because they didn't offer it anymore, it's like it was a capsule and it stuck in my mind, and then it just, like, constantly reinvented itself in a way. But I always loved my mom even. She'd just be like. My dad would be like, where did you even see or hear this? And I would just be watching tv and this little, like, something would happen. I'd be like, see somebody with a beehive. And they'd be like that. Now that's a look, you know? God, me and my mom, like, we couldn't buy pedal pushers, so me and my mom just sewed them and made them, like, pick a pair of pants already had and made a pattern and we just sewed them up. And, like, I would wear that with a bouffant and, like, just an old big shirt. I just wanted to look like Mary Tyler Moore.
- [12:24]
Bella
Wow. And you had an advice column in the Guardian for. For a while in the mid 2000s called what would Beth Ditto Do?
- [12:32]
Beth Ditto
I sure did. I got paid for that and it was so awesome. I lived in, like, a shared house. It was kind of a pass down punk house, like, that's still around in Portland. And, like, I was making. Cause the. The pound, I think, was like, double the dollar. And like, I was like, this is the best thing of all time.
- [12:49]
Bella
Yeah.
- [12:50]
Beth Ditto
All I had to do was buy something every two weeks. So I was just like, I'm rich.
- [12:54]
Bella
Because in many of the interviews, I mean, you speak so eloquently on behalf of other people. And, you know, we've talked about shyness and everything, and I. I've noticed in interviews you quite quickly take over and you start asking the questions.
- [13:09]
Beth Ditto
I know. I was saying today, I was like, bella, I'm gonna make you lay on the couch. Well, yeah, the day is young, the night is young.
- [13:18]
Bella
I was thinking, wow, if anyone could somehow, I'd find I'd switch places. It would somehow be you. You're so persuasive, and you have this kind of very Zen quality. Like, everything I've heard you say in response to prejudice and criticism is remarkably philosophical. And is there someone who somehow made this seem appealing to you? Because, I mean, for me, it was Desmond Tutu. I found him to be radically honest and very funny and kind. And you're very good with this. Kind of your response to like, intensified, you know, homing in of people's negativity. And I love the way you deal with it.
- [14:04]
Beth Ditto
Thank you. I think growing up with no money, growing up fat, growing up gay, growing up being very afraid of God, more afraid of the devil, but both of them are pretty fucking terrifying. And being like, really kind of self aware, really kind of young, I think maybe not, but like, I feel like I was looking at the world like, what the is going on around here, you know, and growing up in the south, growing up in the Bible Belt, growing up in a dry county, growing up in poverty, growing up in a judgmental place, growing up in a place that, like, people will blame anything, that the truth and the problem and that's just like the problems, the real problems. I think that goes for anywhere. But all of those things I think just made me go. It's like you have a. You have a choice somewhat. You can't help the way you feel as much. But it's a practice, you know, it's like, I think, I don't know, just as a little kid being like, that's crazy.
- [15:18]
Bella
Yeah.
- [15:18]
Beth Ditto
You know, like, people going to hell, that's crazy. Or like, I remember like seeing crucifixes and it bringing people like, peace. And I was like, that's a dead body bleeding. Like, I don't understand how that's supposed to bring me peace. I'm five, you know, it was so weird. I was like, that's a corpse. Like, how is. How is that whatever? But I don't know. But I also grew up with a mom that was like, who went through hell as a child. A real trauma hell childhood, real bastard out of Carolina. Shit, that book insane. And for her to come out, to be as joyful as she is, hardworking as she is, kind, open and warm. And like, she wasn't perfect. She wasn't taught love and compassion, but she taught me empathy so young. And like, that was her thing. She'd be like, imagine what that's like. Just imagine. I mean, I get chills thinking of seeing my mom in my mind, being that young. But I was just, you know, I remember saying to my mom, I was like, oh. Cause we're white trash. I was about 10 or 11, and my mom stopped in her tracks and she turned around and she looked at me, she's like, you are. But I'm Not. I was like, damn. It's like how you think about yourself and what you believe. And you're like, you know, my mom's thing was they can't kill you and eat you. They can only say no.
- [16:50]
Bella
Yeah.
- [16:50]
Beth Ditto
And it's like, I don't know, it just made me think, if you can't love, respect and understand my mother and like, it's just like, then what good friends are they? What worth it? It's like, if you. I don't know. She just taught me really young. It's just like, who fucking cares? Because if you live that way, it's hell.
- [17:10]
Bella
Yeah.
- [17:11]
Beth Ditto
And what she went through, she would have gone through letting the system tear her down. If she would have gone through what kids at her school were saying about her. If she would have listened to her own mother, her own father, what they did to her, what they thought of her, if she would have, like, let all those things fuck with her mentality, like, as no worse than they already did. I think she was like, take control of what you can control.
- [17:33]
Bella
Yeah.
- [17:34]
Beth Ditto
That's all you can do. Can you live with yourself? And can you look at yourself at the end of the day and do you love your friends? Do they make you happy? I don't know.
- [17:43]
Bella
God, she sounds like an amazing person, your mom.
- [17:46]
Beth Ditto
She's pretty funny and cute. She's great.
- [17:49]
Bella
God, what a great role model. I mean, you know, I've watched read interviews with Desmond Tutu, but obviously I never met him or anything.
- [17:59]
Beth Ditto
You've never met Myra?
- [18:01]
Bella
Your mum sounds just amazing.
- [18:03]
Beth Ditto
She's very funny, but she's the same. She's very timid in front of people. Like, people who know her well were. They'd be like, Myra. They'd be like, that doesn't sound like her. But if she came in here, I think she's very, very. Just never wants to get in the way. It's just. It's funny. She's shy that way too, but she's also the center of attention.
- [18:22]
Bella
But she's got great value system and that's. She does sounds like she had, you know, she modeled that for you and you've taken that on, which is wonderful. Quite quality.
- [18:35]
Beth Ditto
Yeah, I. I like my mom a lot.
- [18:37]
Bella
So you've appeared on the covers of many fashion magazines and been photographed by David Bailey and Tim Walker, among other high fashion photographers. And you. You said, kate Moss taught me how to take good pictures of myself.
- [18:52]
Beth Ditto
So do you.
- [18:54]
Bella
Coming from her, that really changed the game. And she did it in what was just such a sisterly way. And do you have a pose that works for you?
- [19:04]
Beth Ditto
I mean, it depends. She taught me how to, like, make a shape, you know, that works for me.
- [19:14]
Bella
Yeah.
- [19:14]
Beth Ditto
Like, when you're like, dude, like, things in public or you want to show your outfit. I mean, she taught me that because we were taking pictures together. It was like a carpety thing or something like that.
- [19:25]
Bella
She's a great advisor, isn't she? She's always like, oh, just do this and do that.
- [19:31]
Beth Ditto
And like, you know, it was the thing about. I was thinking, I was telling you this before, that when I hadn't met people I hadn't been around very much. Like, I did that thing just like anyone else that looks at people in magazines and is like, fuck this. Fuck them. And Kate was one of those people that I was just like, was. It was, like, so unattainable that you don't even think about our real people or something. The first time I met her, it was in Los Angeles, and, like, it opened my eyes to how it was internalized sexism and systematic sexism and how much I had. Not just her that, like, had discounted people, women that I didn't even know in an industry I didn't understand. And also, which I think is really one of the best things about getting to see and meet all kinds of different people is that, like, you really see that. Like, you don't know anything. I didn't know anything. I do love that punk rock attitude. That's just like, fuck that, man. So it's really cool. But also, it's just like, it doesn't. I was wrong. And not just about Kate, but about a lot of things. And like, the first time I met her, the first thing we said to each other was. She said, I hate you. And I was like, I hate you, too. Because in the funniest way, because I think she knows. She knew more than anybody. But also, like, it's when you meet people who are kind to you and are funny and creative. Like, you realize that, like, that is the backbone of industries that are based on creativity and personality. You realize that actually, like, that's what makes people stand out. That's what makes people icons. It may not be what makes people money, but it's what makes the image. It's what makes the story. It's like, people who are like her.
- [21:41]
Bella
Yeah.
- [21:42]
Beth Ditto
And, you know, it's like, when I meet. It's like, yeah. And there's so many people I met. Like, Grace Jones is one of those people that you had that. When I first Met her. I was with Kate, actually. And I mean, I just want to be clear. It's not like me and Kate are talking on the phone all the time, but every time I see her, it's always a good time. Yeah, I know. Sisterly and sweet, but, yeah, Grace Jones the same way. I was like, she is so funny, but also, like, it's just nice to be open and not just like that, but, like, with anything and just be like, the only thing I know is I don't know.
- [22:18]
Bella
Yeah, it's a good approach. And. And there's so. Like you said, there are so many great people in the creative industry, and some people, they're just, you know a bit about them or you love their work, and then you meet them and it's like, you and Kate, I hate you. I hate you. Instead of I love you. Meaning the same thing.
- [22:39]
Beth Ditto
Yeah. Because people really wanted to pit us against each other.
- [22:45]
Bella
This is a paid advertisement from BetterHelp. Stress has become a huge player in our working lives. Stress may be a commonly used word to describe how we feel, but the feeling is still such a powerful influence on our behavior. It feels constricting. And the things that make me feel better are walking, listening to audio books, or having a perfect cup of coffee. Therapy is a thing that has helped me. Alongside these activities. Knowing and being able to trust another person's perspective when my mind is whirring is a huge relief. With over 5,000 therapists in the UK, BetterHelp is the world's largest online therapy platform, having served over 5 million people globally. Unwind from work. With BetterHelp, our listeners get 10% off their first month at betterhelp.com neurosis that's betterhelp.com neurosis. In 2012, you appeared in a Versace Runway show with Donatella announcing, Beth Ditto is in my house. And I wondered, what makes you feel so at home in high fashion?
- [24:03]
Beth Ditto
You mean in my H and M dress on your couch?
- [24:06]
Bella
That's only one of your many guises.
- [24:14]
Beth Ditto
I don't know. I didn't know she said that. That's very nice. Yeah.
- [24:17]
Bella
She said, beth Dito is in my house.
- [24:21]
Beth Ditto
It's really great when I'm in here.
- [24:23]
Bella
And then you performed live, and it was wonderful. I mean, I was just watching on YouTube and it was really cool. And then you were the Bride in the 2015 Marc Jacobs show, and I wondered what it felt like being fitted by a designer who knows how to show your body at its most beautiful.
- [24:46]
Beth Ditto
Aw. Marc Jacobs. And that is Katie Grand. Katie grand made that happen. 100%. I remember I had gotten my nails done, and I didn't know what he wanted with them. And, like, I'd gotten acrylics, which I don't really do anymore. I don't even really paint my nails anymore. I kind of like them just kind of plain. Me, too. Like, even, like, my gross cuticles. Like, I do, too. But he clipped them off.
- [25:17]
Bella
Really?
- [25:18]
Beth Ditto
Yeah, he was like. He clipped them off. I don't know. He's really sweet. He's funny.
- [25:27]
Bella
And did you feel his hands on you? Because that's an incredible feeling. Someone shaping you, literally shaping the cloth, and suddenly there you look in the mirror and someone's done this thing for you.
- [25:45]
Beth Ditto
No, I don't remember. I think I'm so out of my body most of the time that I'm not feeling things. I'm seeing them, like, in the mirror. And I think for me, the biggest worry was, like, can I walk in those shoes? Can I walk fast enough with all those tall people? Those tall models? I was hauling ass. I was walking so fast. I was like. And trying not to laugh, too, because I was like, oh, my God, I must look hilarious, because I was like, you look so.
- [26:22]
Bella
I mean, you looked so amazing.
- [26:24]
Beth Ditto
Thank you.
- [26:25]
Bella
Really did.
- [26:25]
Beth Ditto
He did bleach the fuck out of my hair.
- [26:27]
Bella
It was fantastic. With that silk dress and those jewels in your hair. It was really.
- [26:34]
Beth Ditto
That was really amazing time. I mean, like, the other thing, too, is that, like, the US doesn't really embrace gossip that much. Like, it's very different there. Different experience, which is also really cool. Yeah. So to have, like, an American designer to walk in the show in New York, you know, that was very. That was very cool.
- [27:02]
Bella
Yeah.
- [27:02]
Beth Ditto
And it was different for that reason.
- [27:05]
Bella
I mean, Marc Jacobs is just a standout, really. He's just such a. He's just such a bringer of joy. He's so brilliant, and things are so creative, and it's really exciting. Whenever he. He puts a show on, there's something.
- [27:20]
Beth Ditto
Yeah.
- [27:21]
Bella
Now he's wearing all those acrylics. I mean, I know his Instagram. He has these long nails, and they're.
- [27:28]
Beth Ditto
I'm like. I'm really happy for him because. No way. And heels.
- [27:34]
Bella
Yeah.
- [27:34]
Beth Ditto
Yeah.
- [27:35]
Bella
And when. Because you also opened and closed the Gaultier show in 2011, and.
- [27:41]
Beth Ditto
Well, he is so.
- [27:43]
Bella
I mean, he's another so sweet, extraordinary genius. And I wondered.
- [27:48]
Beth Ditto
He's so punk rock.
- [27:49]
Bella
Yeah, he is.
- [27:50]
Beth Ditto
He is. He is. I love his whole story. I love talking to him. I Love. Yeah. He's so. He's. He's great.
- [27:59]
Bella
Did he give you any advice about how he wanted you to walk?
- [28:04]
Beth Ditto
No.
- [28:04]
Bella
Nothing?
- [28:05]
Beth Ditto
No, he did not care at all. No. Which is fine. It was all right. It wasn't hard. He didn't care what I did. I mean, he was just like, all right, I think. Which is a lot easier, you know? Cause you can just be like. You don't have to think about how fast you're walking. But he made my wedding dress. I'm divorced now, but he made my.
- [28:23]
Bella
Wedding dress that white baby. Like the baby doll. Yeah. It was very, very beautiful.
- [28:31]
Beth Ditto
Very sweet. He's always been very good to me. Like, really good to me, I think. You know, I think sometimes people can be. I mean, there was times, I mean, I remember, with Katie. Katie. Grand theft. First shoot we did together was for Pop, and I think it was Stephen Klein. And I was. I don't know if I was 30 yet. Maybe I just turned 30. I don't remember. So it was that long ago. I'm 44 now, so it was that long ago. And she was telling me. I don't know if it was then or the next shoot we did together, about how she could get people to make things for me they wouldn't do. They just flat out said no, you know? Really? Yeah. And so back then, I mean, it's not a surprise, like, well, you're such.
- [29:22]
Bella
A good wearer of clothes. I mean, you've got so much attitude and style. It's like, that's the. That's our job to make you clothes, you know?
- [29:31]
Beth Ditto
Yeah. I could not feel different like, I am.
- [29:36]
Bella
Well, I know you said you hate to take a compliment, and I love to pay a compliment, so it's going to be a conflict here, but I.
- [29:43]
Beth Ditto
Just don't know if I agree, you know, I don't. I don't know. I don't really look at pictures of myself. I don't.
- [29:48]
Bella
But Katie.
- [29:49]
Beth Ditto
But I do love getting dressed.
- [29:51]
Bella
Well, Katie Grant has put you on the COVID of all her magazines, hasn't she?
- [29:56]
Beth Ditto
You.
- [29:56]
Bella
You were the first cover of. Of Love, weren't you?
- [30:01]
Beth Ditto
Yeah.
- [30:01]
Bella
That was an amazing picture.
- [30:05]
Beth Ditto
Yeah. That was wild. That was with Martin Marcus. That was crazy.
- [30:09]
Bella
Yeah.
- [30:09]
Beth Ditto
Yeah.
- [30:10]
Bella
You're a great cover girl.
- [30:12]
Beth Ditto
Thank you.
- [30:12]
Bella
Brilliant.
- [30:13]
Beth Ditto
Thank you. So young, you know. I didn't know that that was. You know, there's a second naked shoot or the second naked cover. And the thing is, is, like, we didn't do a lot of naked shots. I don't think we Did. And she. That's what she chose, which is great. I think it's great. I mean. Yeah, it's just naked.
- [30:37]
Bella
It's interesting when I was like looking at your naked pictures and you know, I sat for my dad naked twice.
- [30:46]
Beth Ditto
Yeah.
- [30:47]
Bella
And. And you seem to be able to express a lot of joy with your body with or without clothes. And. And I wondered what makes you self conscious.
- [31:00]
Beth Ditto
Compliments. But I also want to give a shout out to Sue Tilley.
- [31:06]
Bella
Sue. There's a picture of her over there.
- [31:09]
Beth Ditto
I don't know.
- [31:10]
Bella
I think I saw it because I found I actually felt completely at ease when I was naked. I mean, obviously it depends on the circumstances, but I felt like I was doing a job and it necessitated not having any clothes for this painting. So was fine. Yet the idea of being naked fills me with kind of dread. I don't. You know, in other contexts or usually it does.
- [31:37]
Beth Ditto
I think also nudity, when it's not sexualized is way more comfortable because often, especially with female bodies, we are immediately sexualized. So people have a hard time like separating the two. And it's like, no, it's just a fucking body. You know, it's just skin. It's just bones. It's. It's the. It's a blob. It's the same. You know, it's like that is just. Yours is so different than mine. And they. People have different parts and they have different. Our organs are in different places and some of us have ones and others don't. You know, it's like, it's funny. But I think that's the thing. It's just like. I remember when, you know, I think the Enemy came out. I was in my 20s and their idea was to do it naked. And like, I was like, okay, like. But, you know, I had a little anxiety about it because I was like, oh my God, did I do that? Like, is it gonna be weird? Like people gonna be weird about it? And then it just was like, I don't care. I just don't care. It's like, who cares? Like what. It's like. It's kind of the best part of just coming from a punk rock and like coming in from a place of like radical feminism or like, you know, it's like. Or activism or whatever, you know, whatever word it is. I can't find the right word. But like, I just. It's like you're not asking for anybody to accept you. Like, if you wait around for that, it's. You're not going to do much Yeah, I think that's prison.
- [33:25]
Bella
Yeah.
- [33:26]
Beth Ditto
Yeah. So it's like, who cares? And that's the point. It's like, at the end of the day, you know, in 300 years, nobody's going to fucking remember. Like, it's like, why? Like. Or like. And I'm going to look back and be like, whew, good thing I didn't do that naked shoot. No, in fact, the opposite.
- [33:46]
Bella
It's a great picture and it's so full of charm and it's really fun. And it's, you know, it's also just.
- [33:53]
Beth Ditto
Like, that's what most people look like under their clothes. It's like, I mean, not, you know, but like, there aren't that many bodies that fit this idea of what a cover should be. I mean, I know that's cliche. That's pretty. That's obvious. But it's like, why I always had this mentality. I did not understand if there were more of us, then why do we let this small group of people dictate what we like or what we do or what we say they have? There's like, I never understood that, even in high school. I remember, like, when it was the yearbook, you know, Americans. Like, I was on yearbook staff. And I remember being like, this year it's not gonna be the jocks and the popular kids. It's gonna be my weird friend. It's gonna be. We're gonna get people in there, you know, to vote for, like, most, like, best, all around, most school spirit, most talented, most athletic. It's like, yeah, this year that's not happening. Like, I was just like, I didn't understand. Why did the popular kids get all these accolades and attention when no one really likes or knows them? You know, it's like, what if we actually voted for, like, who we like? I mean, it's just high school to your book, and it's not that simple. I know, but back then I was just like, I don't get it. I don't get it.
- [35:16]
Bella
You seem to been remarkably kind of. I don't know, like, had this very good instinct. Like the age of five, you were thinking, why is everyone going along with, you know, hell and damnation and racism too?
- [35:34]
Beth Ditto
And, yeah, seeing my mom be treated like shit, but, like, it was okay, you know, like, it was cool if a dad left or, like a dude left, but, like, if my mom went out for the weekend, you know, I.
- [35:47]
Bella
Was just, fuck off.
- [35:48]
Beth Ditto
Like, it genuinely did not make sense. It didn't make sense to me. I was like, how does this make sense. I don't get it. In a very simple way, I know that now. There's like, it's not that, like, not things are like. There's more depth and there's like, stories and there's reasons and there's systems and there's history and there's, you know, human beings and then. But back then, just like, I did not understand it. I still don't understand.
- [36:16]
Bella
No, it's good. It's good. You don't.
- [36:18]
Beth Ditto
Hello.
- [36:22]
Bella
Talking of clothes, if you fancy someone and you don't like what they're wearing, does it kill your attraction?
- [36:31]
Beth Ditto
No, no, no. It can bum me out a little bit. But, like, it's usually because I'm like, you can do. Like, it's difficult. Cause, like, I. Because some people don't enjoy it as much as I do. I actually, I like. Like, if I thought that, like doing anything with style or fashion or clothes or makeup and dress, like, getting stuff and. Yeah, sometimes you're not in the mood to do your makeup at midnight, to play. To play a show at 2am you know what I mean? But, like, if I didn't enjoy it, I think it would be a hard. It would be a hard existence, you know, I think it would be difficult. But I actually like it. And not everybody does, so there's that. But yes, like, I think when there's an effort put into something and the f. That it doesn't maybe doesn't really succeed. I think I'm wondering sometimes, like, I'm like, it's. The interesting question is, did they. Are they seeing what I'm seeing?
- [37:34]
Bella
Yeah, good point.
- [37:35]
Beth Ditto
And. And is what I'm seeing better? But, like, it's just a different. Or like. Or, you know, I mean, let's be honest. We have. I mean, just the other day I was talking to my friend Andrew. He's my makeup artist. He didn't have a makeup today, so.
- [37:53]
Bella
Andrew G. Yeah.
- [37:54]
Beth Ditto
Andrew G. Bella. Yeah.
- [37:56]
Bella
I love Andrew G. I saw him not that long ago. He did my makeup and God, it was great.
- [38:03]
Beth Ditto
You did?
- [38:04]
Bella
Yeah, he was wonderful. Carry on. I introd.
- [38:07]
Beth Ditto
I love it. Well, he's one of my very, very best friends. Very best friends. But we were talking about, like, we've entered our all black chic phase. Cause we're just like, when we were younger, I was just like, we dress like clowns. And like, I still love that very much. But now I'm just like, I'm not gonna pack a suitcase full of colorful clothes that I have to coordinate now. I don't have the patience. I'm just like, oh, my God. Throw about 50 black dresses in there, four pair of tops and three pair of shoes. I don't care. I just don't want to. It doesn't stain. You don't have to worry about it. But you talk.
- [38:48]
Bella
You said, I don't like writing words. I just don't find it enjoyable. It feels really awful because it's so personal. But you're really, really good at this.
- [38:57]
Beth Ditto
And you mean, like, lyrics, a song? Oh, I don't like it at all.
- [39:04]
Bella
How do you go through the resistance? Because the things you write are amazing, and they're very.
- [39:09]
Beth Ditto
That's so nice.
- [39:10]
Bella
Connecting and, you know, listening to your songs, they really resonate, and the music is so fantastic.
- [39:16]
Beth Ditto
Thank you.
- [39:17]
Bella
And it's not often that is. You know, you get that whole combination. And so how do you go from like, oh, I don't want to do this, to doing it.
- [39:29]
Beth Ditto
For years? I wouldn't even give. I wouldn't. I wouldn't. Like. I wouldn't write words. It was Barry Ramon, second verse, same as the first. I did not put any, like, any effort into it. I just. It was, like, the most painful. Like, painful, like, emotionally. Not like, I don't want people to know my insides. I don't. I can't explain it. I hate it. I still hate it. Like, also, there's this thing, and I think that's probably part of being, like. Like, coming up in a punk scene, like, young, you know, not like I was, you know, but, like, gossip exists solely because we moved to Olympia, Washington, because we were coming in behind the riot grrrl movement and like, swooping in, you know?
- [40:25]
Bella
Yeah.
- [40:26]
Beth Ditto
So I was 18. So, like, that's my. The first band experience I had was in a feminist punk scene, queer punk scene. The. My touring experience was that. So I think that that comes with, like, you don't. There is no goal to make money. There's no goal to be successful. There's no goal to be famous. There's no goal, like, eventually you do come to a point where you're like, I just want to do this for a living. But for me, like, I just. It just wasn't something you did, you know? I don't really feel like a songwriter. I love writing melodies. I like writing music, but I don't like it. Writing the words, I don't like it.
- [41:05]
Bella
But you do write them anyway.
- [41:07]
Beth Ditto
Yeah. If whatever comes out on top is done, it's done. We're not gonna think that's the Other thing, too, is that you shouldn't think about things too much. That's good about the punk scene is like, you. You're not supposed to. Like. My understanding of it was just not true. Is that you're not supposed to try. You know, it's.
- [41:25]
Bella
But do you think that's because I was around?
- [41:27]
Beth Ditto
But that was my interpretation.
- [41:29]
Bella
It wasn't real.
- [41:30]
Beth Ditto
Yeah.
- [41:30]
Bella
Because I was around. And I mean, I caught the end of. The very end of the Sex Pistols and I was around at that time. And there was. It was quite confusing, this idea that you weren't supposed to care because everybody cares.
- [41:43]
Beth Ditto
I think that.
- [41:44]
Bella
But it's. And it's played havoc with my. Like, why do I care so much yet no one's supposed to care. I don't know what to do with this kind of excess.
- [41:54]
Beth Ditto
That's the thing. No, that is such a good point about that mentality. It's like, because no one was going to admit that they cared. You know, the image that was created was. You know, the image of not caring was curated.
- [42:14]
Bella
Yeah.
- [42:15]
Beth Ditto
You know.
- [42:15]
Bella
Yeah.
- [42:16]
Beth Ditto
Like these. You know, these people had people putting it looks together for them. I guess, from what I understand. And I could be wrong, but. Yeah. And that was like 70s punk too. So, like, also, like grunge for me was, like, formed so much of who I was.
- [42:36]
Bella
Yeah.
- [42:37]
Beth Ditto
But it was like this idea of like the purest form of the pure.
- [42:39]
Bella
Right.
- [42:40]
Beth Ditto
You know, and still that's in my head. Like, don't put it on, like. And. But I cringe. I don't. I'm not good at hiding how I feel or pretending not good at it.
- [42:54]
Bella
Which is great.
- [42:55]
Beth Ditto
I mean, I want to be, though. Don't you think life is probably easy?
- [42:58]
Bella
I know, it's. I. I think. I think that's this kind of phase. And now I've decided I'm not. I'm gonna. If I care about something, that's. I'll care. And that means something. It's like, I remember saying someone saying to me, like, if you feel weird about something, it means it's weird. So now I think if I have strong feelings, then there's something to explore rather than something to sort of suppress.
- [43:28]
Beth Ditto
Yeah.
- [43:29]
Bella
And I think that, you know that that kind of energetic force comes across in your music, your performance, your whole, thank you. You know, everything about you. And it's. It's really a kind of sort of a great source for everybody else who. Who is inspired by you. And. And also you worked on. Am I Right? You've worked on your Last two albums with the producer Rick Rubin, who's a bit of a legend. He looks like a legend too, with that amazing beard.
- [44:04]
Beth Ditto
Have you not met him before?
- [44:05]
Bella
I've never met him. I'm fascinated by him and I. How did you know that he would bring out the best in you or what you wanted to come out?
- [44:16]
Beth Ditto
The first time we. I was. Again, I was in my 20s. It's so wild because, like, we've worked on two, three, I think three records together, I think, but. And spent a lot of time in studios together, you know. How did I know? I didn't at first, but when we. I remember. I just remember being like, is this really happening? Like. And also that thing where, like, I was like, oh, my God, you know, I'm gonna have to, like, take this seriously. I'm gonna have to, like, write a poem and put it in a. You know, it's like, what am I gonna do? Like. And, you know, back then, I didn't realize that it was my process, you know, that, like, I had to take time. I need things to come up naturally. You know, I thought that I was. It was a burden because I'd worked with people before that were like this, you know, where's your lyric sheet? Where's your whatever? And, like, they. And then I realize now that I was like, wait, that's. But. Because Rick does not pressure you for that. Like. But the way that I felt. Just a couple of things. One was that I think there's so.
- [45:37]
Bella
Much.
- [45:39]
Beth Ditto
Like, he's calm. And I feel like we agree about things where it's like, then don't. Like, you're like, oh, but I don't wanna do this. And he'll be like, well, then don't. Or like, I'm worried this will happen. He's like, who cares? Like, we. The things that I feel like I'll say to my friends, he would say to me that also. Just, like, really on the same page. But the first thing. Cause I think I was around 27 when we did Music for Men, I think. And we were in Malibu at the Shangri La. And, like, we had met before. We had done live in Liverpool, which is so wrong. Crazy. That record is nuts. But, like, we. For this one, which you actually writing and recording. He. I walked in and I was like, okay. So, you know, the first day is like, so, what's our process? Like, what do we do? And. And he was like, we'll know when we're done. And I was like.
- [46:35]
Bella
Damn.
- [46:36]
Beth Ditto
I was like, oh, my God. And then I knew it was gonna be okay because I cannot follow a rule. I just. It's not. Cause I don't want to. It's not like I'm rebellious. I mean, like I was saying earlier, I think it's like I was diagnosed with add, and now I get it. Cause I'm like. That's why I don't do things. There's no linear thought all over the place. So. Even in Nathan, my bandmate. Same. I mean, we've known each other since we were 13, 14. We grew up in Arkansas together. Like, came of age together. So, like, we. That was the thing that we needed. And, you know, he, like. But that's when I knew. And I knew in this funny way, I feel really protective of Nathan, even though he doesn't need me to be. But, you know, I think the way that. Just the way that he treats him and the way. Because I think he doesn't. Nathan is. Rick and Nathan are similar in that way. They're not. They don't have macho egos. It's not some, like, rock and roll, like, sex, drugs, girls, girls, girls. Like, it's not, you know, 70s, like, Led Zeppelin, tour bus. Like, it's not his style. And it's not really. I mean, not that I know of. It's not Rick style. So, like, he appreciates him because he's not like, check out my solo. Nathan's just like, you know, here's his bass line. And then Nathan's like. And then Rick will be like, it's amazing. It's amazing. And I'm like, he's. Loves him as much as I do.
- [48:00]
Bella
Yeah. You know, so nice. He. He just has this aura of wisdom about him. And it must be so lovely to be chosen by someone who seems like a wise man, you know, with this calm authority.
- [48:13]
Beth Ditto
Now that I'm older, it feels like a friendship.
- [48:18]
Bella
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [48:20]
Beth Ditto
It's been amazing. Yeah. He does have a calm authority.
- [48:25]
Bella
Well, Rick Rubin seems like a wonderful ally to have. I must say.
- [48:30]
Beth Ditto
He is. I love his stories. I love. Yeah, I love it. Yeah. When you. He's one of those people that. When you make them laugh, it's the best. Because I think, like, some, like, back, you know, like, you'll see images of him, and, like, people are like, what is he like all the time? And you're just like, he's hard to explain. You know that, like, making him laugh is one of my favorite things.
- [48:56]
Bella
Yeah.
- [48:58]
Beth Ditto
I love it. With the last record, I was like, I want to call it Gender Fluids. And if you know him, he was just like, oh, my. He was just like, oh, my God, I am offended. And he was laughing, but grossed out. And I was like, that's the best feeling. It's so funny.
- [49:22]
Bella
And in your memoir, Coal and Diamonds, you say you felt like coal, rough, overlooked. At what point did you start to believe you were becoming the diamond? And who gave you your first compliment?
- [49:39]
Beth Ditto
I don't know. I had this one uncle, very, like. I mean, that's something that I. Rough and overlooked. I feel more like, misunderstood. Just in the mid, like, just like, ooh, like, what's going on? I just felt like I didn't feel like I belonged there. Like, and I always knew it. Like, I was so convinced Cyndi Lapper was my sister. I was convinced of it. You know, I loved my sister. I knew that people liked to hear me sing as a young little kid, but I didn't know that people never were like, you're good at it, or, you've got a good voice, or, like, you know, it's funny. But I had this one uncle who was from South Africa and his name was Uncle Victor. And I didn't really know what that meant at the time especially. I was like five. Four or five, whatever. He was also our landlord. Very kind, very gentle man. He, like, came over like, it's a whole, like, church of Christ thing and like, missionary thing, but. So he ended up in Arkansas. God. But he drank, you know, he drank tea hot. His tea, the tree. The tea he drank was hot. He kept the tea bag in, was weird. And he also put milk and sugar in it. I'm from the South. We. We are. The only tea we had was cold, it was very sweet. And you definitely didn't fucking put milk in it. You know that. I just used to blow my mind. I was just like, what? But he used to call me beautiful. And I remember that always stuck out in my head, like, you know, my mom, of course my mom loved me, my dad love me, and my sister would get, like. We'd play dress up and stuff, and my mom would go, za, za. And she'd say, you're pretty. But it was different because he said he would be like, hello, beautiful. And it was encouraging. It wasn't condescending. It wasn't meant to, like, you know, it wasn't like that weird way that, like, it was genuine and nice. It was like, you know, I think that he could see that. I don't think it was going to be an easy road for me. Like, you know, I think there were Some people that just knew I was a weird kid. I wasn't like, nuts weird kid, but I definitely wasn't the not weird kid. And I think that some people could pick up on that. I think he was one of them. My mom did, too. But him calling me beautiful but not being weird.
- [52:13]
Bella
Yeah. God, you really remember those rare things where someone notices you in a way that's completely unattached to any. Any weird stuff.
- [52:25]
Beth Ditto
Stuff. Yeah.
- [52:26]
Bella
It's really something.
- [52:27]
Beth Ditto
It was really something. He also had an accent, and I just never really thought about it. The tea thing was weirder than anything else.
- [52:37]
Bella
You better get used to that now you're living here. That's. Yeah.
- [52:41]
Beth Ditto
What are you doing? English Yorkshire tea.
- [52:43]
Bella
Yorkshire teas.
- [52:44]
Beth Ditto
Are we doing PG Tips?
- [52:45]
Bella
Yeah, PG Tips in Yorkshire. They're like the hardcore teas.
- [52:49]
Beth Ditto
Do you know what we should do? Make iced tea with those.
- [52:53]
Bella
Yeah.
- [52:55]
Beth Ditto
I don't want to say. Genius.
- [52:57]
Bella
Like rocket fuel.
- [52:58]
Beth Ditto
I know.
- [52:59]
Bella
It's never hot enough to have iced tea. It's just always, like, quite under the temperature level.
- [53:06]
Beth Ditto
See, that is the thing. It's like, where I'm from, you just. It doesn't matter what the temperature is. It could be freezing outside. Tea was like if you had tea in the house, you had groceries, Right? Yeah.
- [53:17]
Bella
And you quoted Patti Smith as saying, if you build a good name, eventually that name will be its own currency. And that seems very fitting for you.
- [53:27]
Beth Ditto
Now, that gives me chills all the time. I say that. I mean, I don't know verbatim, but the whole quote, I just makes my stomach hurt. It's so incredible. It's like, it makes so much sense to me. And I've. They're like. When my friends talk to me, no matter what they're doing. But, you know, a lot of my friends, the industry changed. We're all getting older. You know, we're not even in our mid-30s anymore. We're in our mid-40s. Some of us are almost 50. Some of us are beyond 50. But, like, things change so quickly and industries change. And I mean, like, all across the board, to every friend that I know, in all different ways that I have quoted that to them. And I've just been like, this is the most incredible advice. It's just like. And it. You know, it aligns with that thing of, like, you know, be pure. Like, be good to people or whatever it is. But, you know, what is it? She says, don't worry about the success, but do your work. Do good work and build a good name. And eventually your name will Become its own currency. It's like that is it. To me, that is the answer, you know, like, I guess some people like will quote a Bible verse and be like, you know, like, you know, just like where they'll go, a session, go, whatever. But that was it for me. That made everything feel so good. It made things feel worth it. You're like, oh yeah, that's what you do it for. For us to be fulfilled in like whatever currency. What is the currency?
- [55:08]
Bella
You know, it's a great thing to think about and it's so circular and it's like, yeah, that's a good reason to keep, you know, doing the things you believe are good. You know, that's what you can do.
- [55:23]
Beth Ditto
I also try not to judge the things that you know.
- [55:28]
Bella
But yeah, you're very good at that. And it's, it's a wonderful quality and it's very, you know, it's infectious as well. So you, you give good, you give good quote to Beth. Ditto.
- [55:44]
Beth Ditto
I'm like, listen, let me tell you something. I tell you what you ought to do. I don't like to, I mean, I don't know, I have crazy bullshit days. I do crazy stupid shit, weird shit, whatever, because we all do. But you know, I definitely could be stuck in a well of anxiety while you. But there's things that are actually legitimately weird and they like to worry about and I try to remind myself of them, like these are not real problems.
- [56:14]
Bella
Well, thank you Beth for coming on Fashion Neurosis. It's been wonderful to listen to you and your amazing perspective and your brilliance and your beauty. Thank you so much.
- [56:28]
Beth Ditto
Can you. Are you going to bring me a blanket? Am I sleeping on the couch tonight?
- [56:32]
Bella
You're staying. You're living in England, so.
- [56:34]
Beth Ditto
I live here.
- [56:34]
Bella
Might as well just move in.
- [56:37]
Beth Ditto
I would.
- [56:54]
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