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- [00:01]
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- [00:29]
Courtney Love
Apply chronic spontaneous urticaria or chronic hives with no known cause. It's so unpredictable. It's like playing pinball. Itchy red bumps start on my arm, then my back, sometimes my legs. Hives come out of nowhere and it comes and goes. But I just found out about a treatment option@treatmyhives.com Take that, chronic hives@treatmyhives.Com hi, come in.
- [01:16]
Bella Freud
Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. Courtney Love.
- [01:19]
Courtney Love
The pleasure to be here. Bella Freud, can you tell me what.
- [01:22]
Bella Freud
Clothes you're wearing and why you chose these particular ones today?
- [01:27]
Courtney Love
Yeah, I got a pile out and I got things that are very me in a recognizable way because I've been wearing them for so long. I was doing my documentary yesterday and they showed me all these old diaries that a friend had saved. And like, I was drawing. I'm very consistent. I was drawing clothes and I was for the same clothes that I was wearing that it was. It was very weird to see this evolution of my secret career as a not. Not even a fashion designer. I would have been a costume designer, but, like, for myself. I had drawn all these clothes since I was like four, and they're all the same shape and shit. So I got out a bunch of sort of Edwardian tunic dresses and slips and like more schooling things and a lace, like high collar and Peter Pan collars. And I was like, maybe not like just sort of where what I would wear, you know, that's not my uniform, but still is connected to my uniform. So what I used to call schoolie. Yes, I love became like grunge part of it did not the slip part, but the Peter Pan would call it because it reminded me of boarding a school in New Zealand. And then also yesterday for my documentary, they showed me all these pictures of my fake bands with girls over the years that had names, but we couldn't play anything. But I definitely styled everybody. It was definitely nothing. I was like, it's 83 and I'm wearing this white slip. Jesus, I must have been born in that thing.
- [02:59]
Bella Freud
I Made a dress. And I've got a picture of you in a dress that I made. It was with a Peter Pan collar, pale blue, with the band. And in fact, I made it for when Steven Meisel did his Vogue shoot in. In 93.
- [03:17]
Courtney Love
Was it Italian Vogue?
- [03:19]
Bella Freud
No, British Vogue. He did one shoot and Izzy Blow was styling it with me. No, no. Well, I made it for that. Oh, it was a baby blue, and then it was baby blue.
- [03:29]
Courtney Love
Oh, God, I love that dress.
- [03:31]
Bella Freud
It was so. I love that.
- [03:32]
Courtney Love
Did I. I wore that dress a lot, didn't I?
- [03:34]
Bella Freud
I. I have a picture of you styling.
- [03:37]
Courtney Love
I think I. Someone stole. People stole so much for me.
- [03:40]
Bella Freud
You just looked. I was so excited to have that.
- [03:43]
Courtney Love
Oh, my God, it was so nice to see Peter Pan collars on things. Like, I remember Mrs. Prada had a coat velvet. And I remember that baby blue dress of yours. I was like this Peter Pan color. Something like, I'm not like, looking in the polyester. I'm actually looking at, like, nice fabrics with Peter Pan colors. I really loved a Peter Pan color and a locket. That was like my old vibe.
- [04:06]
Bella Freud
And you're almost a mythological figure in modern times. You founded your band whole in 1989. Yeah. Then you married Kurt Cobain of Nirvana, becoming someone that millions of people projected.
- [04:18]
Courtney Love
Their future becoming his plus one.
- [04:20]
Bella Freud
I wondered what your first memory is of being at the center of attention.
- [04:25]
Courtney Love
Oh, I remember me being at the center of attention. When it switched over to, like, his being his plus one, I was like, yeah, I'm leaving this party. I don't like that so much. That wasn't my goal. And people do forget that. Never mind. The Nirvana album, it did come out in 91, but it really did not do damage. It didn't go to until about February 92, at least in the States, when it, you know, not famously knocked off Michael Jackson from the chart. So for about. Of that relationship, pre. That relationship courting, and then in that relationship, I would say, like, nine, ten months were like, very equal footing only, you know, he had the phallus. He was the dude. So you do hear in your.
- [05:20]
Bella Freud
In your childhood, were you the center of attention?
- [05:24]
Courtney Love
Oh, no, no, no, no.
- [05:26]
Bella Freud
So that was a real, like a weird experience to be everyone.
- [05:30]
Courtney Love
No, no, no, it wasn't. I left my family of origin because I was like the designated scapegoat. If you're the designated scapegoat, you've got two options, and neither of them are very good. But one. One will kill you, and the one that will kill you Is. Is trying to comply. Yeah, because you'll, you'll never win. And the one piece of fashion culture my mother contributed to. Oh my God, I can't. I mean, people have tried to style it and some people love it, but Birkenstocks. I think she might have been one of the first people to order Birkenstocks in America and sell them. And I remember when Gwyneth started rejiggering them as a. As an East Hampton vibe on Goop. I'm like, I'll try. And I bought them off Goop and they came in the Goop box and I wore them one day I'm like, ah, it was. This war was worse than the dark one. I was like, anyway, yeah, no, but.
- [06:30]
Bella Freud
I had exactly that. My teachers at school wore them and so they were symbolic of something. Something just like something dying of drabness. And I just can't, I think with.
- [06:41]
Courtney Love
My mother to give her some hero's journey. Though she had the money, she. She inherited a lot. And she absolutely refused to cater to the male gaze. Like that was her thing. And she ended up married five times to really hot men. So. Except for my father, who wasn't hot, but like four really attractive men. So you know, give her. I'll give her that. Like that's good. But she just happened to give birth to an incredibly glamor obsessed eldest child who I just really wanted to go to Interlaken Bella, which is a drama art school in Michigan. It's a boarding school. She had the money. I don't know why she didn't let. She just. She wanted a lunatic daughter. But I just spided my time. I made a lot of trouble. A lot of the. My back when they called, they found me at 18 and they were like, okay, you can get your records expunged now. I'm like, no, no, no, I need them. I'm going to be famous and I need them.
- [07:44]
Bella Freud
How did you end up in juvie?
- [07:47]
Courtney Love
Juvie? I made them arrest me. I literally had to go back into this Woolworth and shoplift a shirt three times. They were just not arresting me.
- [07:55]
Bella Freud
And that was so you could get out.
- [07:57]
Courtney Love
Oh, but I got a mug shot. They sent a mug shot. Mug shots are so amazing. Like, have you still got it? Yeah, I'd never seen it. It's like my 12 year old mug shot. And that's. That shit's gold. And so I sent it to a friend of both of ours and he goes, It's 1977, I'm 12. I'm sure that I am wearing a tube top. Some Oregonian Nike wearing person has like counselor kindly has put their like what you guys call tracksuit shell suit on me and this fashion conscious media person that we know who's hilarious because wait, cell suit. I was like off. I'm sure I was wearing like over my knob movies like a yellow tube toppers.
- [08:43]
Bella Freud
And I love the way you remember this.
- [08:45]
Courtney Love
No, I just the fact that you did British fashion person going Shel said I was like, oh my God, it's 77. No, like it was a kindly counselor, I'm sure. But yeah, there was a great bunch of runaway songs about juvie glorifying juvie. So I, yeah, I mean I was barely 12 and lied. I said I was 13. And then that put a spanner into my age for life. Like, you know what I mean? Like there's records where I'm different ages, but I'm 60. I'm pretty positive that.
- [09:18]
Bella Freud
And do you remember the first time in your life you found a piece of clothing that made you feel different? Like how old were you? Like under 10 type of thing?
- [09:28]
Courtney Love
No, no. I remember I had very wealthy grandparents and my grandmother would buy me and this affected how I dressed later. But my grandmother would buy me incredible clothes for the San Francisco down to San Francisco for like the Nutcracker holidays. And they were very wealthy and my mother would like throw out the bag from Imagin as we were leaving the city for Oregon. And my grandmother Luella would also go to Paris every two years. I went to the Dior museum. I don't remember her having any Dior, but I remember she had a thing about Hubert Givenchy in her dressing room. She had an 8 by 10 with him. I didn't really understand it at the time. She bitched like high key about Audrey Hepbard all the time that her darling Hubert, like they were better friends but Audrey was the movie star and like whatever. There was this. I think she was more in love with Hubert Givenchy than she was with my grandpa Jack. But then when she died, my mother in her rage at these adoptive rich Italian San Franciscans, like I remember they had these two beds. It sounds Trumpian, but it wasn't. It was very tasteful. But there were two little beds, Grandpa Jack, grandfather. And they were gold and white gilt. And you could see it was like 999 green, the penthouse. So you're looking at Coit Tower and the Golden Gate. Incredible. I mean, God, it's probably worth San Francisco real estate being what it is. I Don't know. They were very wealthy. But she had all her couture. Grandma Louella would, like, show me the seams. And also when I went to the Dior museum and I don't remember Dior, I remember Belmain and I remember Givenchy, and I don't remember Grandpa Jack ever bitching about it. You know, that kind of trope of like, the, oh, she's going to Paris. She also did not do late stage Chanel. She had been a flapper.
- [11:26]
Bella Freud
Oh, really?
- [11:27]
Courtney Love
Yeah. Because you could also. I think Grandma Louella was a snob about it because you could get couture Chanel made in New York at Dan Duskins and in San Francisco at I Magnan. Like, you could get. You. You still see, like, Vincent Chanel when I do the Carrie Taylor auctions. Like, yeah. So that was my first sort of like, thing. And then when she died, my mother gave it all to the children's hospital. I'm like this. I've been chasing that couture ever since. Like, it just all went away. And then also my nutcracker clothes, which is basically, if you look, think about is my whole whole outfit. New Zealand boarding school uniform and nutcracker clothes at a slip. Like, that's kind of it. My mother would just toss. Every year, just toss the eye magnet onto the i5.
- [12:13]
Bella Freud
Gosh.
- [12:14]
Courtney Love
I know. Back to the.
- [12:15]
Bella Freud
What a jester.
- [12:16]
Courtney Love
No, it was like a clothing abuse for sure. But also, Fay Dway taught me a lot about fittings. Like, she did them old school. She was like Edith, head level, nipple to clavicle. Where's the wrist? You're just standing there being quiet and observing Bernadine. And Fay was like, God, what an education.
- [12:41]
Bella Freud
That's incredible.
- [12:42]
Courtney Love
Yeah. So I had. So when the whole started women's Mary Janes were not a thing. But I knew the guy, Andre, number one on Sunset, who, by the way, is still there to say, make me two pairs of Mary Janes. And he did it for almost nothing because he knew me. So I, you know, they weren't. It was just random. Although people are like, can Courtney, like, give us our museum? Or 90s baby doll dresses? I'm like, they're all stolen. There were like, six. I don't know. There was a few in rotation. And people would steal them. So they're gone.
- [13:15]
Bella Freud
So how do you feel about being naked? Do you keep anything on when you're getting naked?
- [13:19]
Courtney Love
No, no, no. I. I took to it really well because I think all those hippies, you know, that were naked. I remember being Made to feel really ashamed. This. My mother built an Olympic swimming pool with that inheritance outside of Eugene. And the swimming teacher came and he was wearing a Speedo and I was wearing a bathing suit. And my little siblings, who were much more we and all the grownups were naked. And my mother yelled at me about. I was seven and I did not want to not wear a swing. You're seven? I remember that. That swimming teacher in his Speedo was a real ally. He was like, yeah, he sort of fought for me a little in my corner. But then when it came to a vocation that paid quickly and paid more than, you know, a restaurant, which I did try, I got fired. I just like, was like, okay, just be really. You don't have fake tits, you really can't afford to like wax, but you just nail that pole. And so as I was learning guitar, I also had calluses here from the pole because I wasn't the prettiest, but I was the nastiest. And the naked wasn't a problem. I just kind of tapped into, you know, those. And I also was like, I never ever want to look like that naked. Like, I don't care what it takes. Like, maybe it created a whole world of disordered eating in that moment. But I was like, okay, the auxiliary hair, the flabbiness, it's humanity. And I can look at it now and be like as a 60 year old, like more frail about it and more forgiving. But as a young 7 year old glam athlete, I'm like, no, yeah, never. That will never be. I will never look like that naked.
- [15:07]
Bella Freud
There was a lot of weird shaminess around this idea of like free, being free, like walking naked. I had similar.
- [15:16]
Courtney Love
Did you have that too?
- [15:17]
Bella Freud
Yeah, just this awful like that you were supposed to feel at ease naked and in fact you felt incredibly exposed and uncomfortable and awkward.
- [15:27]
Courtney Love
Yeah, she's around adults, right?
- [15:29]
Bella Freud
Adults who were supposed to be protecting.
- [15:32]
Courtney Love
You and their phalluses are out or their breasts are out.
- [15:35]
Bella Freud
Oh, just repulsive, very weird.
- [15:37]
Courtney Love
But if I, you know, when I learned to commodify it, I mean, you know, at 15, $6,000 a week in Japan was like heaven, you know, And I didn't have to do much, you know what I mean? So I just got it. I, you know, wasn't doing any drugs. I just got into the music and the lights and there were like a couple good current songs. There was Bette Davis Eyes that I danced to non stop. And it's a Foreigner song, but it's called Jukebox Hero. And it's all about a guy, a kid named Johnny, and he gets a guitar, he becomes a rock star. It's like, you know, I just changed the gender. He had one guitar, and he was a jukebox hero. So if you like the music that you're on the pole to, like, I was talking with my friend in Green Day, Billie Jo, we were talking about the Def Leppard records, like, which, by the way, is a really great way to clear out a British photo shoot. It's like, put on Aerosmith or Def Leppard and people be like, yeah, okay, she's done more Aerosmith. But, yeah, I love Aerosmith. But those guitar tones in those two Mountain lion records are amazing. But also, the greatest stripper song I've ever come across is Pour Some Sugar on Me. It's just like.
- [16:54]
Bella Freud
I don't know that. How does that sound?
- [16:55]
Courtney Love
You could. Bella, you could get up tonight at an amateur night. I don't know where they have them in England. Someplace called Jiggles. Do you know what I mean? Like, get it. Tonight, just put Pour Some Sugar on Me. Hit that pole like your life depends on it. And it would rain. Pounds on you. Just rain.
- [17:11]
Bella Freud
I did a few pole lessons when.
- [17:14]
Courtney Love
Oh, yeah. No, they started teaching it. That's right.
- [17:16]
Bella Freud
The whole thing, learning the pole, it's really hard work.
- [17:19]
Courtney Love
God, yeah. Yeah.
- [17:21]
Bella Freud
Wrecks your body, actually.
- [17:23]
Courtney Love
Um, it's really. I mean, it's. It's. It's. Yeah. The costuming of stripping has changed since I was a stripper. Except for the clear heels. That's the only new addition like this. The colors, the aesthetics are the same. The music's changed, too. Like, you. You could not do girls in, like, 89, 80, 88, 89, 90 Los Angeles who are trying to do Bettie page. They make 50 cents. Like, wasn't going to happen. Tattoos, black hair. Men did not want to see that at any strip club because I worked at all of them. And, yeah, the alternative girls were not having a good time. Like, plop a blonde wig on honey and white. White pumps. But the white pumps are now clear heels.
- [18:03]
Bella Freud
Yeah, yeah. And you invented this term, kinderhore. And do you think having such confidence in your intellect and your intelligence made you.
- [18:12]
Courtney Love
You mean by making up the word?
- [18:14]
Bella Freud
Yeah, but do you think that made you more provocative? Like, shocking people with your brain as well as your attractiveness?
- [18:22]
Courtney Love
I don't think I'm a good intellectual. I do think I'm a thinker. And I definitely am attracted to logo data files like words like Things that like, like Nabokov was so good at like inventing words, plumbacious ombre under her eyes. Like that's what Nabokovian jabberwocky. But like, um, I like and I'm, you know I was very fortunate in two things. One was the Ashland Oregon Shakespeare Festival is really the best one in America. Like it. Like I saw Piper Laurie first time I saw Hamlet was this great stage actress who was in Carrie as the crazy mom. But like she also was a really well respected stage actress from I believe Adler, I think she was Adler or Strasberger. She came up with those people and she was the first, my first Hamlet was seeing her do it at the Shakespeare camp and then by going to boarding school in New Zealand and getting third form, fourth form, fifth form Commonwealth education. I came back to Oregon, expelled with this skill set fella of penmanship, Latin, little bit of French verbs and Shakespeare. So I've always. I really like classics, but I don't think I'm an intellect. I think people assume I'm well read.
- [19:48]
Bella Freud
And I'm based on memory. I mean you've quoted so many things.
- [19:53]
Courtney Love
Yeah, but since you were writing. I do burrow because I do read a lot of poetry. Poetry I love and I do read. And I do read Shakespeare for pleasure. Like I do that I do. But War and Peace, I can't read it. Dostoevsky, I can't read it. Like. And by the way, I did read a lot of great things when I was younger and had less add but like I can't read those things anymore. Like. And you have to read them. You can't audible them. No, you have to experience Plato's Republic or Dante's Inferno, which I did thankfully read early. But then like I didn't. You know what I mean? I didn't. But I always liked the classics. I. If I didn't do what I did, I'd probably be a costume designer, which I never wanted a plan B. And when I got offered that job, I literally threw it at a friend because if you have a plan B, you're gonna do the plan B. Yeah. So that's always a truth.
- [20:46]
Bella Freud
That's such a good tip.
- [20:47]
Courtney Love
It's really the truth though. If you have a plan B, you're going to do it.
- [20:51]
Bella Freud
He would have been a brilliant librarian. I mean.
- [20:54]
Courtney Love
Yeah, that would be amazing. Or to know Greek. You know, to know Greek.
- [20:59]
Bella Freud
Well, talking of which, you said you named your band Hole after the Euripides play Medea, where she says it's kind of A troll. It's kind of a troll. There's a hole that pierces my soul. And I played Madea in my school play, and when you said that. And I always remember being fascinated and sort of obsessed by her hurt and jealousy. And I wondered how you deal with jealousy.
- [21:28]
Courtney Love
I don't really get it. I don't know if I'm being in denial here, but I have a friend, and I made friends with him when he was on the app in the art world, and he's done astonishingly well, and I could not be happier for him. I have another friend who I met on her come up, and now she's, like, bigger than I'll ever, ever be, and I'm really happy for her.
- [21:53]
Bella Freud
But how about sexual jealousy?
- [21:56]
Courtney Love
Oh, I'm a bit of a libertine. Like, the person that I most. I think, do my romantic crap with is also a libertine. So we really are more friends, really, with benefits, sometimes kind of vibes. But I don't like talking. I don't mention who. I don't mention what. Because there is a. There is jealousy about. Around that person. And so, you know, I will tell you the last time, though, I did have very intense jealousy. Somebody deemed somebody else more fit to date publicly than myself, which, by the way, they're completely right. I have no idea, in this person's case, how to date them publicly. Our values in terms of public presentation cannot be more different. Yeah, but I did have to tolerate the public dating of somebody that I found full of guile and not witty. But also then this person, Mary Henry Higgins, that person. And I had to watch that situation, which is one of their mos doing their Henry Higgins thing, you know, and seeing her stature grow. It's things that I don't want. I don't care about. I don't care. But you know what I did, Bella? So we're way back. 2012 was the last time I was really writhing with jealousy. And I wrote maybe the meanest letter of my entire life. It was so mean. Like, yeah. I was like, you're both from Jersey, by the way. Not true. But whatever. It was just beyond mean. And didn't speak to them for six months. And I went and made an art show about it.
- [23:58]
Bella Freud
Wow.
- [23:59]
Courtney Love
Which was really a lucky break. It was when I lived under David Bowie in the Lafayette apartment that he passed in. And I played music all day, all night all day, all night. This is the best David Bowie story ever. I don't think you're gonna get a better David Bowie story. It doesn't involve a personal interaction. Whatso I've met him. Whatever. This David boy story is so damn good. So I'm doing this art show. I'm playing crazy music all day, all night in this building on Lafayette in Houston. You know my neighbor Teddy Wong? So great to give me that apartment. The Bowies are upstairs. I never see him. He goes out Mulberry. I go out Lafayette. And it's Sunday. My friend Jane and her kid are over and we're making crepes and playing some like, brunch music. It's a Sunday. And Bernard the doorman calls and he's like, yeah, Mr. Rowley really doesn't like the noise. Doesn't like the music. And I'm like, oh, it's too loud. Bernard's like, no, he would prefer that you change the music.
- [25:02]
Bella Freud
No.
- [25:03]
Courtney Love
And I was listening to Fleetwood Mac's Rumors. That's the best story.
- [25:08]
Bella Freud
That is just.
- [25:10]
Courtney Love
I was like, is this really happening? This is so Bowie on brand. Like, fine, if I want to change it to Throbbing Gristle and turn it to 12, but like, no Fleetwood Matt. I bet you he didn't like my Def Leppard and my Cheap Trick neither. It was amazing. The best Bowie moment ever. I know. Kate. Kate. Our friend Kate. Monsters. As like the, like when she was really down. Bowie calling her and like, you're cool. I did not have that experience, but I did have him telling me to change my Fleetwood Mac.
- [25:42]
Bella Freud
That's. That's just am.
- [25:45]
Courtney Love
Oh, I love it. Good story. Wow.
- [25:49]
Bella Freud
And I saw. I saw some amazing pictures of Kurt and Mark Lanigan dressed up in.
- [25:55]
Courtney Love
Oh, and their friend Dylan. Yeah, yeah.
- [25:57]
Bella Freud
And I wondered, did you style that?
- [26:00]
Courtney Love
Yeah. Put them in. Like, they look so charming. It's charming and it's really that in between pre intersectional feminist era when people our age were just like feminists and like, we didn't have to learn all the other extra stuff. And I guess like whenever I tour with Lana Del Rey, which is. I mean, opening for someone half your age is crazy. But we were in Portland and hadn't seen my half sister for a very long time and I met my 4 year old trans niece. I'm like, okay, it's my family. I didn't even think twice. How did we get there? Oh, yeah, because the second wave feminism and then reading and going into third wave feminism and that what we were.
- [26:40]
Bella Freud
Talking about, like almost like styling your boyfriend.
- [26:43]
Courtney Love
Styling your boyfriend and like. Yeah, exactly. And making them wear lipstick and like dresses and like, you know, I remember once In Rio, it was a really big Nirvana show. So the few times I, like, went just with Nirvana, there was no hole. I was just, like, going and being a wife. It was, you know, weird. I adored that guy. But anyway, we found some letters of his yesterday. He was so problematic. I was very happy. I was like, oh, my God, these are so problematic. We would send, like, really rude faxes to each other. And some of them survived mostly to shock the hotel people. But, like, these were, like, great problematic. He was just being hilarious.
- [27:23]
Bella Freud
Well, between you and Kurt.
- [27:25]
Courtney Love
Yeah, it was like faxes like. Like he would always jump big cocks on, like the front page. And, you know, I see all these memes, like, why do our expectations in men so high? It'll be a picture of Kurt at 27 because of this motherfucker. I'm like, yeah, you really didn't know him well, me and jd, who manages, like, his estate, we were just trying to think of someone as good looking as him. Debbie Harry comes to mind. Joan Crawford, like, literally, forget rock. Cause it's hardly anybody. Like, technically, I'm talking about, like, not a bad angle. And also did not know they were that beautiful. Okay.
- [28:07]
Bella Freud
Yeah.
- [28:08]
Courtney Love
You know, like, I mean, who, Suzy, like, who's that beauty? It's very rare. And when they don't know because they grew up in poverty, were there, like when Oscar Wilde's like, beauty is its own aristocracy. It's so true. But unless you're in a lumber town, where only if you're built like a longshoreman, is anybody. No one's looking for beauty because they've been on welfare for four generations. So he didn't know what he looked like. And I'm like. He's like, I think I'm kind of cute. And then I remember we were at the place right across from what became Rick Owens was when I was Rick Owens first client after Kurt died. But Rick was living in that storefront on Cahuenga and Hollywood. That was where we got our magazines. NME and Melody Maker and all the things select, whatever. Whatever that shit. But it was the COVID of Rolling Stone and it was Nirvana. They were all in suits. Do you remember that cover at all?
- [29:07]
Bella Freud
No, I didn't.
- [29:07]
Courtney Love
They were very tidy. I think Kurt was trying to go for a Beatles thing and he was into it. But it was undeniable how just outrageously beautiful he was. Which I had been telling him, I didn't want to hear it. Anyway, he flew into a rage and he started picking at his face. He dyed his hair red. He started Wearing like weird glasses. Like he started, he got. He realized it was true. I mean, because I kept saying to him, if I look like you, I would rule the world. Yeah, Kate Moss is like that too. Like actually it was her doing this. And then I saw Cave doing this. And then I saw Daphne doing this. I was like an hour. That's all we have to talk about fashion neurosis. Like. But I will say when I saw Cave doing I was like, oh my God, Nick Cave has affect impacted my aesthetics. Even though they aren't the same as his by any means. Like how men wear jewelry. The pointiness of a boot on a man. Like his Hollywood era that he never talks about. Because he had a whole Hollywood era. Nick did where he like hung out with Jeffrey Lee Pierce, Lydia Lunch, Exed and John from X. Like I remember me and Flea and young Jennifer Finchmail seven were outside a goth club and Nick and Jeffrey Lee and Exed and Lydia walked by and either Lydia or Exed dropped a cigarette. And there was no matte red back then. There was just Revlon cherries in the snow. And you could melt your Maybelline coal. Add that and then put powder and then you'd have dark red lips. Right? Come on, you know this trick, the powder.
- [30:46]
Bella Freud
I don't know any trick.
- [30:48]
Courtney Love
It was before there was Matt Shiseida was the first Matt, but. But I remember we went me, Fleet and Jennifer and Fleet ended up. It's probably Lydia's but might have been vaccines cigarette butt. And Fleet kept it because it totem. We were just so impressed with him. But he was in a movie back then too with a very scary other movie. Henry Portrait of serial killer who's not in Ghost of the Civil Dead. And it was filmed in the first supermax prison. And Henry scared everybody. People were puking. It was the most terrifying movie. But Ghost of the Civil dad was even more scary. And Nick played a madman in. He was really good man. He should have maybe.
- [31:30]
Bella Freud
I don't know.
- [31:30]
Courtney Love
People say this to me, you should have stuck with film acting. Actually, I don't like it. The hurry up and wait makes me crazy. But in any event, he was so good as a madman in a super Max.
- [31:39]
Bella Freud
I've never seen that.
- [31:40]
Courtney Love
Oh my God. It's terrifying. But like the ass saw the angel. I remember reading that. I remember my penmanship being that it was a British Commonwealth. Like I was very like, Nick Cave had his penmanship. I had my penmanship and I was very like. He impacted. You've got to have a kit of Aesthetics. And also the first time I was here in 81 in London. I mean, I know we have a First Amendment in my country, but all over this town and I was with a guy named Julie Cope who very, very platonic, mentored me, you know, wonderfully. There was nothing untoward whatsoever that whole Liverpool period. But we'd come up to the Columbia because his band would do Top of the Pops or old Gray whistle chest or whatever. And all of London had drunk on the Pope's blood and Nick in his black in. You never see this even in New York ever, right? Drunk on the Pope's foot and a guy with a mohawk like that high. Think about it.
- [32:44]
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- [33:18]
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- [33:44]
Bella Freud
Can I ask you if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing? Does it kill your attraction?
- [33:52]
Courtney Love
Yeah. Yeah. I'm going back, going back. And I remember someone wearing a Grateful Dead T shirt. I was like, yeah, we're not going to walk work out.
- [34:02]
Bella Freud
Really so specific.
- [34:05]
Courtney Love
Yeah, I mean Grateful Dead. It's just like, like that you're flexing that a. And like, just like, oh, just what I grew up in. And I don't, I still don't know because he's dead and my father's dead and John, John Mayer who joined like Dead and Company, which is like post Jerry Garcia dead. I was like, would you ask Fesh if he really is my, my godfather? Because there he was. But I remember being on the road with them and I was so embarrassed that my father stole 200 bucks from. There was a Red Lion In Albany. And I hid. I was, like, slinking by, and someone knocked, and they were like, no, no, the Dead one. They want to meet you. They love you. And I was just, like, so ashamed of my father's behavior. And I like. I only, like. I got as far as the road crew, and then I ran. I was, like, just so ashamed of Hank, by the way. I've done some horrible shit, but, like, I'm way less than Hank stealing 200 bucks from the Warlocks. Dead. However far he went with them, he definitely. He went to the same college and was a roommate with the bass player. Yeah, no, that. Yeah. Billy Corgan wearing a Dead shirt. And he wouldn. I just saw, actually, my friend in Green Day. And the first Green Day van, I had to do a thing for something we're doing together. And the first Green Day van, it says Grateful Dead on the back. And he's from Berkeley. And I had to ask the question, like, come to mama. I need you to just tell me the truth. Just tell me the truth. You know, whatever. It's Green Day's first band. So what is it?
- [35:38]
Bella Freud
What's the question?
- [35:41]
Courtney Love
Were you into the Dead?
- [35:42]
Bella Freud
Dude, you can hardly say.
- [35:46]
Courtney Love
And we're such good friends. I mean, going to 94, it's like. It's hard. The Dead. Yeah. Being into the Grateful Dead. I'm sorry, all of you two watching this. It was like, oh, God, she didn't even write her own song. How dare she have a musical opinion? I mean, I've had a few. Like, Taylor Swift doesn't land for me, but the Dead. Yeah, the Dead. And I was actually Jameson. Our friend Dr. Webster used to be married to this guy, Dr. Simon Critchley. And he's teaching at the New School. Is that of the New School philosophy. He's from Liverpool. I love him. And he's teaching a course, a curriculum in Swift. And he talked Taylor Swift. And he talks about how the Swifties are the best Greek students. They're the best classic students, really. Yeah. She does have a way with words. Like, if you look at her lyrics, particularly when she's angry, I think she gets the most. I just find her boring in terms of her chord progressions. But her marketing is genius. And I think people get more. The people that don't like her, the misogyny is just screaming on it, like, actually less. Boys that used to pick on me from the old school can pick on me now because of Taylor Swift, like, sticking up for herself, which is, like, amazing. But I think where she gets criticism, that is Unfair. Utterly unfair. But she just can modify it. But I would have if I thought of it, because I remember just being horrified when I was in Trent's studio and he showed me, because we were. We had a very ugly uncoupling, which is. It was like a tour affair. Like, I did not expect more. And like, I remain a fan, by the way, but, like, he just had to make it about me, like, being a, quote, bunny boiler. It's like, oh, my God. Wow. Really? Really, dude? Like, no. But I got so mad about it. Melissa, my bass player found a photo of us, me and Trent and his dog who died. Did he love that dog, by the way? Maisie started. But I put. I put it on all sorts of industry, like cups and swags and hat. Merry Christmas from the roosters. It was such a good troll. But anyway, in his studio, and this goes to. He has. He had three on his keyboard. He loves being in the studio. I hate being in the studio. But he had three buttons. One was a moan, one was his voice breaking and he knew that was effective. And one was like, where his voice was like cracking, right? And they would go. And at first I was like, oh, that's horrifying. And then I was like the evil genius of it. Like, if you listen to her, you know, and you hear Reznor, you can have it all. My empire of shit. Oh, that's what he says live, Dirk. That's what he says. Like on the record. But it's like, you know, when Johnny Cash covers it, it's like it's canon, right? It works, though. It works anyway.
- [38:41]
Bella Freud
In Milos Forman's film, the People vs. Larry Flint, you were nominated for Best Actress and your performance was just incredible as Althea married to Larry Flynt. And you wore this white silk Gianni Versace dress. And for all your wild punk demeanor, you have this incredible chic. And where does that come from? Who do you. What are you referencing you?
- [39:09]
Courtney Love
No, no, no. I appreciate the compliment, but you got it wrong. So a lot of people take credit for that dress. And when Kevin Oen left, because he had to leave at 11 or 12 to go do Kidman and Tom Cruise and like all Tom and Nicole's siblings and stuff. So he had double booked it, but I didn't even have to touch my face and I was wearing a different Versace dress. And the reason. And you know, I mean Ari, and it was helpful, but whatever, I was alone. And you leave for the Oscars around 3, 2:30 or 3, and I changed out of a Tiered thing I did wear later. I think I wore it to like Batman and Robin or something. That other Versace dress. But like Bella, because I think that fame is kind of a postmodern experiment. I'm like, I have been wearing white slips, like, because they're, they're utilitarian since like the late 70s, right. Like when I first heard Patti Smith. And I'm like, oh my God, I'm not even going to fight for the tightest jeans. I'm just going to wear like the old lady lingerie. Literally. Like, it'll work, right? With like Breakfast Club came out, like, and a trench coat. Like, I'm cool. Like I'm going to be new wave, not punk. I was never punk. I've never punk. I like a melody. But anyway, wait, wait. In the middle of a. Oh. It wasn't to do with chic. It was to do with context. Okay, I'm going to wear the I'm. I changed out of the other dress. The stylist, it was all secured. Versace knew. Thank God it was still Versace. Cuz it made a PR girl's career. Whatever. But I, I was alone in my room and I'm like, where are the whites? Slip and see what happens. That's different. It's kind of like with this thing. With who? My real grandmother. You know, my maternal line or when I said I had a trust fund when I was 15. It's like the shift. I'm doing the exact same thing, but I've added an element. So I'm now adding a Oscar red carpet. Yeah. And it's, you know, and the pictures are prettier and I probably. I clean up, clean up nice. Then the year before that was more that you would remember, which is me and Amanda Cadenet, where my makeup was more Baby Jane at a Fanny fair thing. And then if you go all the way back to like Faith no more in 84, where I kind of look more like I do at the Oscars, like, it's a white slip. Yeah, okay. You know, there's crooked teeth and things needing a little fixing, whatever. But literally I am the same person the whole time. It's just the background that's changing. So it was more a troll. And it looked really freaking good.
- [41:47]
Bella Freud
I mean, it looked, it was an.
- [41:48]
Courtney Love
Expensive updo of that dress, but it was the same damn dress. So you're giving me certain. There are times I've nearly nailed it and there are times I really haven't on a carpet. And I'm really glad that isn't my life because I would go crazy from the actual job of movie acting, which is like, hurry up and wait. To the really performative. Like, likable. You have to be likable. Yeah. Bob Dylan doesn't need you to like him. I hope you like me if you're watching this, like. Or. I hope you don't hate me actively. I'm too old for you to hate me. Like, really. I'm actually really chill. Don't worry, I won't hurt you. I'm tough. But, Courtney. But I'm saying. What I'm saying is I wasn't currying favor. I was currying, like. No. I mean, I wanted to see what would happen. But you, like, in a classic sense, like, I've been wearing this white slit my whole career.
- [42:42]
Bella Freud
But you looked. I mean, the thing is, it's you that has the chic. It's not the.
- [42:46]
Courtney Love
No, no, no. There was a giant Oscar behind me. Like, it changed the context. Like, oh, she's not being the bimbo. Because every year they would have a bimbo at the Vanity Fair party, whether it was Lewinsky or whatever. And we didn't think. We knew about it. I knew about it, right? Like, I knew I was the bimbo that year, the joke person that year. So I was like, let's play. I got, like. I knew Brits had, like, TV presenters. Not a thing that we had then. And I grabbed Academy, who was very beautiful. And I was like, come with me. Let's, like, just go with this bimbo thing, right? But, you know, there's another picture we did. We did our own makeup. Like, that wasn't professional. Do you know what I mean? Like, so, you know, it looked better. But let's. Like, the Golden Globes. That was me cleaning up. Well, yeah, you looked, you know, and that was Sharon Stone really helping me.
- [43:32]
Bella Freud
That was. Was quite Sharon Stone.
- [43:34]
Courtney Love
No, it was Sharon Stone's dress.
- [43:36]
Bella Freud
I mean, you've got the elegance. You've both got this incredibly elegant body.
- [43:40]
Courtney Love
No, this was. As you know, my face story is that Sharon did not know that I come from wardrobe. She's like. She. She called. I did not get nominated for an Oscar. I got an Oscar for a Golden Globe. And they really wanted me to go for Best supporting, to apologize for myself. And Sharon had gone through that because of her vagina being shown in a movie, and Martin Scorsese wouldn't let her on the casino, and she didn't want to, and Milos wouldn't let me. It was like, it's not a Supporting role, and you're not apologizing for yourself. So she called me, and she's like, Ms. Dunaway invited me to this community when I entered, and I came up the hard way like her. And I know you did, too, and I'm here to welcome you to this community.
- [44:19]
Bella Freud
I.
- [44:20]
Courtney Love
And everything she ever told me was right. And I just was scared of her. I wouldn't let her mentor me. And now we DM a lot.
- [44:28]
Bella Freud
Really?
- [44:28]
Courtney Love
Oh. She was like, oh, my God. You're listening to the WASP boyfriend. Oh, my God, this is gonna end so badly. Like, no, no, no. And she was so right. And then she was like, get to Europe by 45. Like, she was. Everything was right. She's like, you're too hip. And she's like, everyone. They want you to roll up to the carpet in a Harley. I'm like, no. She's like, here, you're wearing this Valentino. Like, she. And she was. She had all these rules that were. I was like, wait, that can't be true. She's like, yeah, when you get one gown, you get three others, and you.
- [44:57]
Bella Freud
Really give life to the. That gown. I mean, it's. It's.
- [45:01]
Courtney Love
No. The Golden Globes is Sharon dressing me.
- [45:04]
Bella Freud
But, like, that's so lovely that she had your back. She was the one that took care of you.
- [45:10]
Courtney Love
Between her and Carrie Fisher, I was so. I really wish I'd have been a better mentee. And now I mentor a couple artists, and they drive me insane. I'm too invested. I'm like, God, what I must have done to Carrie Fisher and Sharon Stone. She's like, you know, screaming during the whole. I was really buying into fight Club. And like, you boomer. You boomer. You boomer. And she was so patient. She's like, drink the. And this. I'll say this to you, kid. You kids, because I'm. I'm. I'm ex boomer. And, like, I don't mind. Okay, Boomer. But Cherries of Carrie Fisher said to me, when I was furious with boomers, she was like, drink the finest river. Drink the finest water from the finest streams. I was like, yeah, you're right.
- [45:55]
Bella Freud
What did she mean by that?
- [45:56]
Courtney Love
She meant, take the best wisdom from whoever's giving it, including your elders. Brat.
- [46:02]
Bella Freud
On your journey to becoming a Buddhist, you had a little bit of Scientology. And I.
- [46:09]
Courtney Love
No, no. I've been a Buddhist since 88.
- [46:12]
Bella Freud
You.
- [46:12]
Courtney Love
Right. I took faith in 88. Oh, I took. You had a personality test. I know Scientologists, but it's like, no, no, Tom Cruise sent me in for an ethics course once, and I had a fight with this guy Wellington while holding the cans, because they call it. I love this Scientology word, interbulated. I didn't get that deep into it, but I did. Michael Stipe and Julie did notice a book called Ethics that I had underlined a lot of. So clearly, I. Like, I did my course. But here's what Tom said. He goes, I don't know him that well, but he was doing Vanilla sky with my friend Cameron Crow. And he goes, people don't listen to you in business, do they? And having had so much money embezzled, you know, any artist can relate to this. But, like, extra, like, I was like, God, no, they don't. You need to do an ethics course. I'm like, but I'm a Buddhist. He's like, yeah, no, Scientology doesn't care. So I went in, I got the ethics book. And then you knew they really didn't like me because first of all, Elrond Hubbard said, if you did lsd, we don't want you. So I very famously had been given this lsd, allegedly Right. By Hank. So they don't even want you. And then. So when I left, like, they didn't put. They didn't give chase at all. The Kabbalah people gave chase. Like, I went with. I traded Madonna. If she chanted with me, I would go to Kabbalah with her. They gave chase.
- [47:38]
Bella Freud
Interesting.
- [47:39]
Courtney Love
Yeah. I've had my religion sorted at 88, and I've literally had two years off since then. And, you know, the years. Because really, really bad things happened in both the years. So it's not a neat narrative. It's not. Tina Turner is like, okay, I got rid of Ike. You know, I came out triumphant. I gotta come back. And I married a hot guy. I went to Zurich. Right. It's a much Messier narrative since 88. But, like, you know, I've really enriched my inner life. I'm alive. I have no right to be alive. Like, none. You know what I mean? Like, I should just not be alive. I have a healthy daughter. I have a grandchild now. Like, yeah, she was in a great marriage and living a really good life. I have an incredible relationship with my music. I have incredible management. Like, really collaborative. I have a great team, great household. I wake up to wonderful people every day. I'm really lucky. Yeah. It's just a lot to be great. I have a great therapist for eight years. Like, Lacanian. Wow. Who knew? Like, who knew I'd actually. Because it Was. It was a former biographer who goes like, do you lie to your therapist? I was like, ew, who would do that? But I'd been in therapy since like one, so I didn't want to. And then my great feminist Friday friend was like, you need a Lacania. It's the word. And she gave me three essays and this one had written about Jane's addiction. I'm like, I want the rock one. Give me the rock one. And we had. It's. We kind of. I'm like, I know your guy. He's amazing. Your analyst. But I like having a bit of a similar background. Like, I know the college where he got his PhDs. They got their PhDs from it. I do love trolling them about it. It's a really reputable college, but it's also one of the major psychedelic centers. Anyways. But yeah, no, it's. I, I really. Eight years I've been in that therapy as well as friend of Bill's. You know, whatever. You know, those steps are really, really important to staying humble.
- [49:49]
Bella Freud
Yeah, it's true.
- [49:50]
Courtney Love
Making restitution when. When you're wrong, promptly admit it. And then finally, hopefully. Oh, God, I pray to God, Alan Carr method working. Just praying to God, the smoking. Yeah, yeah, it's weirdly the hardest one. But like, I'm there, I'm there, I'm there. Hypnosis worked once for three years, for almost straight, then wouldn't work again. But Alan, Cara is so far holding. I'm still vulnerable. So talk to me in two weeks. But like, I'm feeling it. It's a whole cognitive reframe.
- [50:24]
Bella Freud
Yeah.
- [50:24]
Courtney Love
I did not think it would take, but it's taking.
- [50:27]
Bella Freud
Well, thank you so much.
- [50:29]
Courtney Love
Oh, thank you. I have a lot more passion, but you know what? I feel like the Daphne Guinness one should have been a four hour special.
- [50:36]
Bella Freud
Well, it's very hard to stop talking. It's just so interesting because you're getting.
- [50:41]
Courtney Love
All of Isabelle's blows hats with Daphne, like, well, or Kate, like Kate should have been a 10 hour special. We'd all watched it.
- [50:51]
Bella Freud
We would.
- [50:51]
Courtney Love
I'll say one thing about Kate. We played, I played this show our friend Evan Dando played at the Roundhouse from the Lemonheads. And she was like, wear this YSL glitter shirt. And I always think that my taste is the greatest taste. And I put it on and it did look better. And I was like, you'd make a great stylist. She's. Yeah, she's a little overqualified, but she actually would like everything she's ever suggested I wear.
- [51:20]
Bella Freud
Yeah.
- [51:20]
Courtney Love
Has looked good.
- [51:21]
Bella Freud
No, she is. She's the most discerning person on every level. And it's like, she says, wear this, and you think, oh, it's glittery.
- [51:31]
Courtney Love
I'm going to look. I'm going to look like Martin Lamb. And it looked great.
- [51:35]
Bella Freud
No, she's.
- [51:36]
Courtney Love
I love her. So these are three people. Daphne, you've had on. I haven't looked at everyone. You had a. I have a lot of friends. Had a Nick who's not a friend, but although I did once force him to duet only level break your heart with me. He was like, okay, okay. And then he was in. Once I locked him, he was in. I was running from Lucinda Williams and he was running from me. She was really drunk. I was semi drunk, and he was not drunk at all. But that's it. But it's by choice because we're both misanthropic, so it's like. Do you know what I mean? Like, we have, like, mutual friends. It's like. It's real. Do you know those relationships where by choice, you're just gonna, like, keep it.
- [52:24]
Bella Freud
Like you're coy, but just looking across the room.
- [52:28]
Courtney Love
Yeah. Like, you know, you've been in my life so long, like, I don't want to know more.
- [52:34]
Bella Freud
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
- [52:35]
Courtney Love
This is good.
- [52:36]
Bella Freud
Yeah.
- [52:36]
Courtney Love
It's like I refuse to even meet Leonard Cohen, and I don't regret it. And I had so many chances. Like, I just. I. I couldn't do it, you know, when they really matter.
- [52:46]
Bella Freud
Yeah. It's good. Good just to have your own version of them and.
- [52:50]
Courtney Love
Yeah.
- [52:51]
Bella Freud
Anyway, it's just great to.