← Fashion Neurosis with Bella Freud
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- [00:00]
Host
Today's show is brought to you by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Fashion is never just about clothes, is it? It's about identity, culture, and the stories we tell ourselves and others. For those exploring design concepts or questioning what drives our choices, Claude can be your thinking partner. Claude is the AI collaborator that helps you dig deeper into the questions that fascinate you, whether that's understanding cultural movements, exploring creative concepts, or working through complex problems. Try Claude for free@claude aifashionneurosis. Hi, come in. Welcome to Fashion Neurosis. David Cronenberg.
- [00:58]
David Cronenberg
I feel very happy finally to be here on this couch. I've been thinking about it since we last discussed it.
- [01:08]
Host
I'm very happy too. Can you tell me what you're wearing today and why you chose these particular clothes?
- [01:16]
David Cronenberg
Well, I'm sure you're stunned by the elegance of this outfit. And I think it would be thought of right now as kind of standard Covid wear, because it's basically sweats, sweatpants and a hoodie. In this case, it's made by a Canadian company called Reigning Champ. So it's nothing amazing, it's just. But very well made and so on. So, yes, Covid wear. But in fact, I was wearing this before COVID In fact, for many years when I travel basically on an airplane, I really just want to be comfortable and have the possibility of warmth and a hood. And I remember really quite a few years ago, I met happened to remake Christopher Walken, who I'd worked with on the Dead Zone, and he too was wearing sweats and he was. It was at Heathrow and he was flying somewhere. We both laughed because we were both wearing the same kind of stuff. It's just comfortable. It doesn't look particularly great, but it's comfortable. And then I took to just wearing it when I was home reading and so on, watching tv, whatever. So it's. I thought it would be legitimate and honest to wear it here because lying on a couch, I would be wearing this.
- [02:45]
Host
Well, it's quite an agile outfit as well for a director. And it feels a bit ninja as well as comfortable.
- [02:55]
David Cronenberg
Well, actually, now that you mention it, I in fact do wear this when I'm directing, basically on the film set. Yeah, I don't even think twice about it. I see photos of all those great directors of Hollywood in the early days, and not just Hollywood in Europe as well. Von Sternberg. I mean, they were all dressed beautifully, formally even to the extent of boots and cravats and all kinds of stuff. And I'm really I think it looks beautiful and elegant. I think of what I'm wearing. But I wouldn't be happy wearing that stuff. And I wouldn't be happy spending the time on my wardrobe because I'm pretty lazy about that. And I keep thinking I have no sense of style really. But maybe I have at some points in my life had some sense of style. I'm not sure I have it now.
- [04:02]
Host
I think you do because also you have this amazing hair and that's part of your style.
- [04:09]
David Cronenberg
Well, it's funny you say that too, because I remember at the time that I did meet Chris Walken at the airport. He said, because we hadn't seen each other for quite a while. And he said, well, we've both got our hair, that's the important thing. When I was a teenager, I think the hair was more slicked back. What we call duck's ass, duck's tail. And it wasn't until I came to London in 1965 that I grew my hair long. It was King's Road and so on. And I saw the Rolling Stones at the London Palladium, along with the Moody Blues and Unit Four plus two. I remember. But before I went to Copenhagen, in London I started to let my hair grow long. And in Copenhagen, if you spoke English and you had long hair, you were Mick Jagger and you were very, very attractive. And so in no time I had a beautiful Danish girlfriend. I attributed totally to my hair, really. And yet when I left Copenhagen, which I had to do after three months, you have to go away and come back. Then I ended up in Yugoslavia, meeting a girl that I had met on the boat going over, who lived in Ljubljana. But people, old people, old men spat at me on the streets because I had long hair. And of course, Yugoslavia was in the Eastern bloc and so the long hair was Western decadence and was a threat. And I suppose I was probably wearing bell bottom jeans or something like that. So it was my. I was gradually. My sense of style certainly was influenced by the 60s, corduroy, double breasted jacket, flared trousers, you know. So I guess I was very conscious of the style. I had to match my hair, I guess. But when I was 13, 14, 15 in Toronto, and it was still the sort of Elvis Presley style, I really. I recall that I was into cardigans, you know, sleeveless cardigans, buttons, I think I had. I can remember setting them out on the bed, you know, different colors, deciding which one to wear to go to a party in somebody's rec room, a rec room that stood for Recreation room. And it usually was in a basement. And there you would have. There would be girls and boys all around the same age, maybe, probably from the same school, and you would be listening to records and you would be dancing together. I remember I must have had a white shirt under my cardigan because I was very excited to come home one day to find that I actually did have lipstick on my collar, which was, you know, a song as well. So I thought, well, this is sex, you know, I mean, I'm entering the world of sex. This is fabulous. Lipstick on my collar.
- [07:39]
Host
That's so good.
- [07:40]
David Cronenberg
What else can I tell you.
- [07:43]
Host
Then? You're a much revered film director, drawn to the themes of unusual. And as a child, were you attracted to people who stood out because of extreme beauty or because of anything they were wearing?
- [07:59]
David Cronenberg
Yeah, I was. I was always. I was impressed by people who took a lot of care with what they wore. Even now, I mean, you see directors like Spike Lee, for example, has his own. You know, he's always. He's never wearing the same thing twice. Even his glasses are changing. He's taking a lot of care with what he looks like and what he wears. I've never been really that. I've been somewhat conscious of it, but not really. It's never been really a huge part of my life. I've never been compelled to really spend that much time on it. But yes, I mean, even when I did the movie Crash, it was the difference between the J.G. ballard book, which was very tough and in some ways deliberately ugly, but I could not resist the beauty of my actors. I mean, I think that's one of the things that I did that was quite different from the novel.
- [08:57]
Host
Yeah.
- [08:59]
David Cronenberg
And J.G. bello, Jim, really, he loved the movie and defended it at Cannes when it was being attacked by hundreds of journalists who were attacking it. I was quite shocked at how extreme the reaction was. There was a Norwegian journalist who got up and said, unlike the English journalists who said that this was a movie beyond the bounds of depravity. And he was a well known journalist, film critic, and I can't remember his name right now, but we thought that would make a great poster. Beyond the bounds of depravity, the Norwegian said, took a different tack on attacking. He said, you've betrayed the book, because it's not the book, it's not as good as the book. It's not as good, as extreme as a book. It's not this, it's not that. And Ballard took the mic and said, well, as a matter of fact, it's actually quite a bit better than the book. And of course, the journalists just had to sort of quietly sit down because there was Ballard right next to me telling him that my movie was better than his book, which was an incredibly generous thing, of course, for him to say. But I thought that it came to me when I was first adapting Stephen King's novel the Dead Zone, which was my first adaptation, that to be faithful to the book, you must betray the book in some way. And with Crash, I think it was, with the beauty of the lighting and the actors and actresses, that was my betrayal. But it was still being faithful somehow.
- [10:40]
Host
No, it's so interesting that, because often a bad book makes a good film, and a good book is harder to make into a film because its complexities are more difficult to sort of simplify in a way.
- [10:57]
David Cronenberg
Yes. But I thought the trick, I felt with the Dead Zone, for example, was that the audience who might have read the book and liked it and revered Stephen King would feel that the movie was the book in its tone and so on, and they would forget about the details of character and so on, which, in fact, I had changed. So it's. In a way, you're faithful to the tone of the book, the vibration of the book. If it's a good book, you're never gonna. There's no such thing as a translation, really. It's. The media are so totally different that the art forms. There's no such thing as a translation that way. So it's a reinvention, a recreation of something of the book. I'm now in the position of working on a script based on my own novel, Consumed. I've written one novel and I'm working on a script, so I'm adapting my own book. And yes, I'm gonna have to betray the book. Definitely. I'm gonna be very vicious. I am vicious. I'm brutal. I'm definitely brutal.
- [12:15]
Host
What was the first thing that you wore that you knew would invite disapproval? Did it make you feel free or even more self conscious?
- [12:24]
David Cronenberg
I was a motorcycle enthusiast. And eventually at one point, I had a beautiful ducati Italian motorcycle, 750V twin. And I was wearing leathers. I was wearing motorcycle leathers, as it turned out, bell bottom leather pants, which is not really normal motorcycle wear, but motorcycle boots, motorcycle jacket. There was the Marlon Brando movie the Wild One, which featured a sort of motorcycle gang outlaw kind of jackets. And this was not what I was wearing. I was wearing something that had. Was closer to what you would wear if you were Racing a motorcycle. And I did. I raced motorcycles and cars. Wow. I can't say that I thought it would meet disapproval, but it wasn't normal kind of wear for even for a motorcyclist. And I felt very comfortable in it, even though it was odd. And at the time, this was when I had returned from Copenhagen and was one of the. I was quite alone really in having shoulder length hair at that point. So I had this motorcycle gear and this shoulder length hair. And at that time in Toronto, if you were going to grow your hair long, and I was one of the first, I can prove it because I have a photo of the graduating class from University of Toronto in 1967. And I'm the only male who has shoulder length. I look like a kind of ugly woman. But you couldn't go to a normal barber because they would cut your hair more than you wanted. You couldn't trust them. You know, there was a big struggle, it was a big turning point. And for a while I had to cut my own hair and I did not do a great job of it. So it ended up being a kind of Prince Valiant cut, you know, like bangs and like long hair. It was not very attractive, but at least the hair stayed long. So that was me in my motorcycle gear. That's probably about as antisocial as I got. And it wasn't all that antisocial really, but it was odd. There's one other moment of disapproval vis a vis wardrobe that I haven't thought of for a long time. And I'm just thinking of it now. When I was in high school at Harvard Collegiate in Toronto, we were required at the time to join the cadets, army cadets. Every once in a while, like every week, we would have to wear these kind of cadet clothes. It was sort of pseudo army clothes, very scratchy and itchy and uncomfortable. And then we would go to the Armories, which was a place in Toronto that no longer exists. It was a huge building that had been built during the war and it was called the Armories. And it's where the weaponry was kept and ammunition and where soldiers, young soldiers would go to train. And we were required to go there. And it was the Queen's Own Rifles. That's what it said on the badge, Queen's Own Rifles. Don't ask, I have no idea. But it was all khaki, kind of, you know, itchy khaki pants and trousers and jacket, button jacket. And we would take training with firearms. We were shooting rifles, they were.22s firing at targets. All these High school kids and I was one of them. And honestly it was kind of interesting to. It was exciting to be shooting a rifle especially. The gun culture of the US did not exist in Canada. So you didn't know anybody who had guns or shotguns, except maybe in the country, shotguns for farmers and so on. So it was quite interesting to be in this army uniform firing these guns. But I. We were left to provide our own shoes. And my shoes were white bucks. You know the Elvis song Blue Suede Shoes? Well, these were white suede shoes basically. And in the armories, which was very dimly lit and everybody wearing this drab olive green kind of army stuff, my white bucks shone like beacons. And the. We had a teacher at Harvard Collegiate who was also had been in the army and would appear at these training sessions wearing a kilt. His name was Stapleton Caldecott. And at a certain point, and he was very tough and at a certain point he yelled out to me, and of course everybody could hear this echoing in the armories. He said, cronenberg, what are those things on your feet? I said, well, the white bucks, sir. He said, never wear those here again. And I didn't. But I was rather proud to carry the banner over because to me white bucks was. It was. I have to admit it was more associated with the singer Pat Boone, who was certainly not an idol of mine. I associated it with Elvis, even though I don't think he ever actually wore white bucks. But he did sing about blue suede shoes. So that was the connection. Anyway, that was public humiliation, although I didn't really feel quite humiliated under the circumstances. But there it was.
- [18:53]
Host
Support for today's show is brought to you by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. I'm building a real budget for Fashion Neurosis. I opened Claude dropped in last year's costs and sponsor forecasts and asked it to help me think. Not right for me. It turned my chaos into a zero based plan. It modeled best and worst case revenue. And if you want to see what it can do for you, you can try Claude for free at Claude AI fashionneuros. Your films are often about threat. How come you're so drawn to that? Was there something in your early life that reminded you of the experience of that feeling?
- [19:44]
David Cronenberg
I really had a very lovely childhood in Toronto with wonderful parents. My father was a writer, my mother was a pianist musician and her brother was a violinist. So there was always music and books in our house and they were just very sweet people. So I can't say that I grew up feeling threatened in any way other than what a normal kid who had a street life in Toronto would have, which is certainly not. It was not a dangerous or difficult street either, Crawford street that I lived in. But I really think in terms of my films, I was just always interested in this sort of outsider. But it's really George Bernard Shaw, you know, conflict is the essence of drama. So there's going to be conflict, somebody's going to be threatened by something or somebody. And it just seemed very natural to me to tell a story that somehow was scary. I can't really think of. It didn't feel sort of. In other words, it didn't feel autobiographical to me.
- [21:08]
Host
Yeah. And do you think extreme arousal is a way of handling fear? Almost like a vaccination?
- [21:16]
David Cronenberg
Who's calling me? That was Paolo Branco. No, I just thought, I don't know why he's calling me. I have no idea. Out of the blue, I'll call him back. Isn't that funny?
- [21:31]
Host
That is funny. Our mutual. How we met through Paolo Branco. He obviously had some sort of instinct that this was a good moment in some ways.
- [21:43]
David Cronenberg
He maybe has a project for me. Who knows? Well, my spiel, my basic spiel that I give whenever I'm talking to film students or whatever, is that for me, I'm an atheist, I'm an existentialist, maybe. And as is the mantra in my second last film, Crimes of the Future, body is reality. And I really think what we are is a body. And when the body ends, we end. And that's the reality. Even though we try to avoid accepting that because it's a very difficult thing to accept your non existence. And so. And also, what is it that we photograph as filmmakers? It's the human body. I mean, that is our subject face. But also body is, you know, even the voice is really body. So obviously sex is immediately a very uppermost in my thoughts when I'm making a movie, even if a scene isn't overtly sexual. And it's. It's a connection with the most primordial life force. And I feel that it is. It's always there as a compelling connection to what is most basic to human existence as a body. So for me it's no surprise that there should be sexuality, a sexual element to every. Every interaction really of my characters, whether it's overt or not. And to me it's just natural and normal. It's not. I mean, people. There's sometimes people say, why are you obsessed with sex? For example? And I Say it's not an obsession, it's just an observation. I mean, I see it, it's evident. So that's my take on all of that. And there is. The whole human body becomes aroused in the face of danger. It's so strange. I was just before I came here, I'm reading an article, I think it was on the BBC website, even that was about people. Very Rare, maybe only 400 cases of people who have lost the ability to experience fear because something is happening to their amygdala. And it was a discussion of how that plays out. So, God, how interesting. I think the fear arousal and the sexual arousal, it's sort of a stimulation of the. It's an entire bodily neural response to anything that's threatening, that's fear inducing, that's dangerous and that's sexual. It's all interconnected.
- [25:07]
Host
Yeah.
- [25:08]
David Cronenberg
So that's my approach, my understanding of that aspect of human life.
- [25:16]
Host
Body horror is a term often attached to your work. And there's a lot of body horror in fashion, but it's about body shame. Body horror in fashion is body shame. You're very good at showing beauty. And how do you approach that?
- [25:34]
David Cronenberg
Well, I like that idea of fashion body horror. I haven't really thought of it that way. Yeah, I mean. I mean, there's just. There's infinite ways that the body exists. I mean, can we say beauty is in the eye of the beholder? I'm not sure, but yeah. I don't know how to answer your question. I do find beauty in nature and I do feel that the human body is part of nature and there are just an infinite number of possibilities of human life on this planet. I always felt, even as a kid when people were thinking science fiction, you must go to another planet to discover all these amazing life forms. And I thought I was an insect freak. I loved insects and animals in general. And I thought, well, we have the most incredible, bizarre animal life right here on the planet. It's as alien as you could possibly want. And of course, we're still discovering it. There's so much of life on earth that has not been discovered. And it's all. It's, you know, you even taking the possibilities of sexuality amongst insects and it's just become so bizarre and so strange and so unearthly, even though it's ultimately totally earthly. And I just see that as all being beautiful because it's an expression of the life force, which, frankly, it would not surprise me if there is no other life in the universe really than on this planet. I know there's always constant searching for it. And I know there are many universes and many galaxies, but it's just so unlikely that it should come together. That it is. And it's not a matter of arrogance. It's a thinking, oh, well, we're the only life, you know, intelligent life. It's just so complex. I think it's quite possible that we are alone in the universe, which is another reason to not destroy the Earth. I don't want to get into that. So I'm sure I haven't answered your question.
- [28:14]
Host
It's a great answer, even if you haven't. And hair colors in your film seems to have a significance, almost like a moral slant. And I wondered why Debbie Harry was a brunette in Videodrome.
- [28:29]
David Cronenberg
Yeah, why was Debbie Harry a brunette in Videodrome? I think that. I don't. I didn't ask her to change her hair color.
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Host
She was so.
- [28:41]
David Cronenberg
I know. It's. I mean, when I met her, when we were thinking of her for that movie, that was her hair color. And I didn't. It didn't. I wasn't really trying to cast Bondi. I was trying to cast an actual character. But, you know, it's funny, I haven't thought of it till this very moment because it just seemed right for her and natural for her as that character. And, in fact, I suppose if we had discussed it, I would have said to her, I'd prefer you not to be blonde just because I don't want your stage Persona to interfere with your development of this character as an actress.
- [29:29]
Host
She was awfully good. I mean, she's a brilliant actress.
- [29:32]
David Cronenberg
She was not very experienced with film acting. I think she'd only done one movie called Union City before that, which I had seen her in, of course. And I did talk to her about it. And there were moments on the set when I really had to say. I remember distinctly saying, debbie, you're giving too much. You know, the camera's right here. You're not performing for an audience that's 1,000ft away from you. You don't have to do that. Bring it way, way down. Way, way down. She said, you mean, everything that I had learned about performing on stage. Stage is. Is not valid? I said, it's worse than. Not valid. It's destructive. You really have to. You have to be a film. You have to be a film actress. You know? And I mean. And she understood it completely and was quite able to do it. But it was. It was a discussion, though, that we.
- [30:28]
Host
Had to have in your film Crash. The wife, Catherine, was a blonde. It gave her an almost virginal quality, though she wasn't. She was elegant. Did you aim to set her apart with these clothes? And I. I wondered, did you decide what she was going to wear?
- [30:46]
David Cronenberg
Well, in each movie, my. My sister Denise, who died a while ago, was a dancer, was a ballet dancer. And when she retired from dancing, she became a costume designer. And I worked with her on many movies, and I think maybe the Fly was the first movie that she worked on. It's always a collaboration. Hair, clothing, everything. It's not like I have. I don't do storyboards. I don't have. It's not like I have a vision of an entire movie. And then you go and try to, with your crew, realize that vision. It's very much an evolution and a collaboration. And so. And with the actors, of course, as well. So it's finding the way. I mean, in the case of Crash, there was my script that was based on the J.G. bell novel. That was our key to everything. But of course, it doesn't. Neither one of those things, as precise as my script was, it's still not actually creating the objects or the clothes or the characters. There's still a lot to be discovered. And of course, whatever you, as a writer might have described in your screenplay, as soon as the actor is there, everything changes. Because now you have a living human being and that reality is much more forceful than whatever you wrote on the page. So, yeah, I mean, Fellini at one point, I adored Fellini at one point he wrote that he said, you know, you're auditioning the actors and you are certain that you want this six foot five, athletic, handsome, caricature actor for this role. And then in comes someone who's about 5 foot 2 and not handsome, and he is so charismatic that he completely takes over your imagination for this character and you go with that actor instead. And it's, in a way, it's the same thing from the script and the novel to the reality of the actors. Once you cast somebody like James Spader, who was quite a beauty at that time, very sort of androgynous beauty, in fact. And that does not really match the character from the novel or from my screenplay, but it's so compelling, you know, that you go then with his beauty. And the same with the actresses. I seem to recall not feeling that anybody in the novel was beautiful.
- [33:34]
Host
Yeah.
- [33:35]
David Cronenberg
And yet, once again, as I think we've just discussed, I was seduced by the beauty of the actors who came to audition. And I knew that I needed that for the film and it was going to change the whole development of the film. So I don't think I really asked any actor or actress to change hair color. But this, you know, the shaping of the hair in concert with the wardrobe was, as I say, a collaboration amongst the, you know, the makeup people, costume people, and of course the lighting, the camera work, the lighting can change a lot in terms of the look of the clothes and the hair and of course the face. So it was a collaboration and that's exciting. I mean, it would be very boring. That's why I don't do storyboards. I mean, I like the spontaneity of the Discovery with your crew. Really, really is a collaboration.
- [34:39]
Host
Yeah. In Crash, Rosanna Arquette plays a woman very disabled from an accident. She wears fishnet stockings and leather skirts, not clothes associated with a victim. Did this feel like a big risk to take?
- [34:55]
David Cronenberg
It's, it's interesting that while we were being attacked for Crash, one of the attacks came from, I think he was someone who had a TV show as well, English we're talking about, who said, in describing how disgusting the movie was, he said it even shows disabled people having sex. He said. And of course he was suddenly on the wrong side of the fence at that point because he was then counterattacked by groups of the disabled who said that this movie, Crash, was the first movie they ever saw that showed the disabled having a real sex life and being sexually attractive. And we were very conscious of that when we were making the character that Rosanna Arqueb played, that she was a sexual being and not only capable of sex, but wanting sex and being good at sex. And that she finds in the character of Jim Ballard, played by James Spader, someone quite willing to play sex with her, however, needed to be played and however she wanted to be played. So we were never worried about it. I mean, honestly, I wasn't worried about anything when I made the movie because I was really surprised that it became a scandal at Cannes in 1996 because it was based on a 20 year old novel that by Jim Ballard was very well known and very accepted. I didn't really think it was going to cause much of a scandal at all. So I wasn't worried about. Just seemed obvious to me that that's the way the character should be played. Yeah, and we went, we went with it with full strength, no compromises. And of course, Rosanna was beyond willing to play that.
- [37:10]
Host
Scars are a recurring feature in your films, in your most recent film, the Shrouds, the, the Wife returns in Vincent Cassel's dreams with amputations and scars. And even the AI personal assistant suddenly appears on the screen naked with amputations and scars. Are scars almost like clothes or like underwear?
- [37:36]
David Cronenberg
I don't really think of scars as being like clothes or underwear because you can't take them off. Yeah, I have a few scars from motorcycle racing, and they're still right there. Shoulder separation, you know, over the handlebars. So, no, I think the scarring is a much more intimate, physical. It's a transformation that you. And you can't discard it. You have to find a way to absorb it and to accept it and to embody is, of course, very physical, very much a body, a bodily thing. So I don't think of it as being decorative at all. Although, obviously there are cultures in which scarification is decorative and does have ritual significance and possibly religious significance as well. But not in my movies.
- [38:36]
Host
Yeah, The Shroud seems to me to be a deeply romantic film which you made after the death of your wife. In it, Karsh says, I lived in Becca's body. It was the only place I felt alive. It was the meaning and purpose of the world. You make the story of sex so deep in your films. When people talk about meaningless sexual. Can sex ever be meaningless?
- [39:04]
David Cronenberg
I don't really think there's such a thing as meaningless sex, actually, in terms of, you know, the place that you go when you're experiencing sex. I don't think it's meaningless. I think it's very meaningful. Although, obviously it's. Can be a very super. It can be undertaken with. In a very superficial kind of way. But in terms of art, in terms of my movies, I don't think there's. There is no meaningless sex. In fact, most of my sex scenes are also dialogue scenes. And particularly in the Shrouds.
- [39:49]
Host
Yeah.
- [39:50]
David Cronenberg
I did have a critic, a critic I know, and who should have known better. But she did say there's a scene where they're, you know, Vincent Cassell and Diane Kruger having sex. And it just goes on and on and on. And they're just grunting and moaning, and it just goes on and on. And I eventually got to meet her again and talk about it. I said, you know, the. Those were not grunts and moans. They were having a conversation that is a dialogue scene. And she had completely missed it. I think she had a hearing problem. I should know because of my own. And she had not heard the dialogue that was being spoken in the scene. So for her, it was a meaningless sex scene. And, of course, it's a very meaningful sex. And the dialogue scene. Yeah. So in my movies, the sex is not. It's. It's not. It's not superficial. It's not meaningless. It is. It's extremely important. And. And I think that the sexual experience in most people's lives is quite important. It's quite. It's quite deep.
- [41:05]
Host
Yeah. It's just. It's interesting. It's something that people so often say, I suppose, when they're caught out. It didn't mean anything, but everything means something, especially sex.
- [41:17]
David Cronenberg
Yeah. That's an interesting approach to life, to think that some things are meaningful and some things are meaningless. I think in a life, we have evolved to look for meaning everywhere, and that is. And I think humans are very good at that, at finding meaning everywhere. And I think we need that. I need that. It certainly is a survival mechanism for our species. It does lead us to some strangeness. Like the creation of God, for example, I think is an example of our need to find meaning. When, in fact, if you're an existentialist and you're thinking of theater of the absurd as your life, then there is no meaning to anything. So I think you've got two choices. Everything is meaningless or everything is meaningful. And I think it's very hard to live thinking that there is no meaning in anything. And I think emotionally and neurologically and physically, everything that we experience has meaning, even if it's not religious or philosophical or spiritual meaning.
- [42:38]
Host
Today's show is brought to you by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. You know how certain pieces of clothing can haunt you. That vintage Saint Laurent blazer, the perfect pair of jeans that represents an entire decade's Rebellion, or the 150-year-old shoe style we're all suddenly obsessed with. Claude is right there with you. It's a thinking partner that helps you explore the deeper psychology behind what we wear and why it matters. When you're trying to understand why certain designers become cultural lightning rods, or examining how fashion reflects our collective anxieties and desires, Claude helps you trace those invisible threads. Together, you can explore how a simple hemline shift signals social change or why certain aesthetics resurface when they do. What's compelling about Claude is how it works with your curiosity. Whether you're analyzing the cultural influences of a particular era, exploring the business behind the beauty, or working through your own relationship with style, it becomes a collaborator in art, understanding fashion as language, as history, as neurosis. Try Claude for free@claude aifashionneurosis. And see why the world's best problem solvers choose Claude as their thinking partner. Your film Crash won the special prize at Cannes for Audacity. How do you handle people's projection of their feelings onto you?
- [44:12]
David Cronenberg
I was just in Budapest and they were showing some films of mine that had been produced by Robert Lanters, who's a Canadian Hungarian producer and was a professor of cinema. And he said, as he attended the master class that I gave, so so called masterclass and some Q&As with audiences of high schoolers and then university students. He said, I was really shocked at how funny you are. You know, you have such a lovely sense of humor and you're really very funny performer when you, you give your masterclass. I guess that's the only way that I can deal with people's expectations. You know, they, they. I mean, look, Marty Scorsese, who is a friend, the first time we met, he said, said to me, I was actually afraid to meet you. He said, you know, I had seen your first movie, Shivers, and your second movie, Rabbit, and I was really terrified to meet you. And I said, you're the guy who made Taxi Driver and you're afraid to meet me. I'm actually afraid to meet you. So it has not been a big impediment, I don't think, in my life. But I guess my movies don't exactly prepare people for the reality of me. Not that that's necessary, I mean, really. But I think all my movies are funny, by the way. So that's the other thing. I mean, I think, speaking of evolved survival mechanisms, we humans have evolved to have a sense of humor as a survival mechanism. I. Absolutely, it's quite clear. Yeah. Along with all the other things that have come with this enormous brain that we have is the need to find humor and things that otherwise would drive us completely crazy. And so I can't imagine making a movie about human beings that is not on some level, a comedy. And so I think then people should not be that surprised to find out that in fact, I do have a sense of humor, let's put it that way.
- [46:36]
Host
Yeah. On the red carpet, you've worn these white frame dark glasses. Are they a disguise or an extra addition to your charisma.
- [46:48]
David Cronenberg
At a certain point. And I've been to Cannes, I've been on the red carpet there, I guess probably at least seven times. I guess, the photography, you have a wall of photographers, they're piled up high, you know, they're on kind of bleachers and the flashes go off like that. And I started to find. And it's always at night and it's against sort of dark background of the night sky. And I began to find that I was starting to have a kind of epileptic twitches. It was really very disturbing. And I couldn't because the flashes are just coming, you know, sort of randomly. And I thought, well, this is why movie stars are known for wearing dark glasses. Because the lights are. Especially when it's flashbulbs, it's incredibly disturbing. And I found that I really had to wear extremely dark glasses when I was facing the photography, photographers, this wall of photographers. So I found these specialized glasses that were made for mountain climbing where you are up so high in the mountains that you are completely exposed to UV light and so on. And they're incredibly dark, really dark. And I had to wear them. I would have an assistant carry them with me. And then when it was time for having photos taken, I would put them on. And I became famous for that. I mean it was quite odd. And so, so in fact, the last time I was in Cannes for the shrouds, when I put the glasses on, I got a standing ovation. And it was the glasses that got the standing ovation. And I can't even remember the name of the manufacturer. I'm not sure that they might not still exist, I'm not sure. But they specialized in those kind of extreme sunglasses. So it was not really a. It became a strange fashion statement. It was really not intended that way. It was a talk about survival mechanism. This is red carpet survival at its finest.
- [49:16]
Host
My father had that same thing with the flashes. And he really hate. That's why he hated having his photograph taken.
- [49:25]
David Cronenberg
It twitches, it feels like what kind of epilepsy would be. It's neurological. And there was nothing you could do about it except try to cut down the light. Very extreme.
- [49:41]
Host
And my shrink said we attach our phobias to objects so we can distance ourselves from them. And you said somewhere about that the self destruction comes from within. And I wondered, do you have any phobias?
- [49:55]
David Cronenberg
I'm pretty phobia free. Actually. I don't have anything that I would consider a phobia. I mean, of course I have things that I don't like, things that make me feel kind of uncomfortable or whatever. But I don't really have a phobia. I mean, I love snakes, you know, I adore snakes. I like spiders. So I can't really. I don't really. I don't think that there's anything in my Life that deserves to be called a phobia, really. If I think of one, I'll let you know, but I don't really think so.
- [50:35]
Host
And how about if you fancy someone and don't like something they're wearing, does it kill your attraction to them?
- [50:42]
David Cronenberg
Certainly there are small things about someone who I might be attracted to that might put me off. It could be something. It's probably more likely something that they think and say than something that they're wearing that would put me off. I've been surprised by what certain women have been wearing that I've been attracted to. But the attraction to them would be so strong that I would be able to ignore the. Whatever it was that they were wearing that put me off. I could find a way to rationalize it so that I could still be attracted to them. So I don't. I can't remember really disconnecting from someone because of. Just because of what they're wearing. Some clothing does suggest a lifestyle. Is it. I mean, from. From the hippie days where it was evident you were. You were really signaling that you were of the hippie movement in the 60s by what you were wearing and of course, your hair as well. But I'm sure that there is. I have to think about this, but there's nothing immediately pops to mind, something that someone would wear. I'm sure there's something, but I'm usually just entertained by the crazy things that people end up wearing that seem very inappropriate to them for them to be wearing. And it amuses me. It doesn't really put me off necessarily.
- [52:27]
Host
You made a film about Jung and Freud, A dangerous method. Have you always been into Freud? My dad said he was funny. In fact, it's the only thing he said about him.
- [52:38]
David Cronenberg
Yeah, I actually adore Sigmund Freud. Of course, I never knew him and there are very few recordings of him. I think I looked for one where he was actually speaking English just to hear his voice. And part of that was research for a dangerous method. But it. His writing is beautiful. I mean, he's really a wonderful writer. This is something that sometimes gets lost. And although my German is not wonderful, it is said that Freud's German as a writer was of the highest quality, most elegant, most beautiful. It really doesn't matter if he was absolutely correct or incorrect in everything he wrote. And he was always in what I've read, and I've read quite a bit of Freud. It was always theoretical. It was always possibilities. He was never dogmatic. He was willing to be corrected or willing to Correct himself. So I basically was just. I think he was just. I think he's an incredibly important creative mind for where we are now, one of the most important. And then I just love the mythology of Freud. So it was very exciting for me to be in Vienna with my own Freud, played by Viggo Mortensen and my own Jung. I can't say I was as fond of Carl Jung as I was of Freud, but maybe that's a cultural difference, I'm not sure. But it was very exciting for me. I mean, I don't really do period pieces. I think I've only done two. I think Dead Ringers is a bit of a period piece actually, but a Dangerous method is. Is. It's. It's the first time I think I've done. It's the only time that I've done a movie about well known public figures as a sort of historical piece. And it was really the idea that I would be in Vienna in Freud's apartment and recreating that in Toronto, also in a stage, was incredibly exciting to me, really. In my research vis a vis Carl Jung, I came to the conclusion that he was basically an Aryan mystic. And I don't really. The collective unconscious and all of those things. I have bought his Red book, it was relatively recently published and which is obvious that he is really. It's more mysticism that he's talking about rather than psychology, I have to say. And therefore for me, it's much less valuable and real than what Freud was talking about. So an interesting character, no question. And influential. Yes, but I don't think as accurate in terms of his assessment of the human condition, actually, basically. So I think in the study of the human condition, Freud stands much taller than Carl Jung.
- [56:19]
Host
I'll take your word for it. And in your film the Fly, Jeff Goldblum follows a tip recommended by Einstein, which is to always wear the same outfit so he doesn't have to think about clothes. And do you believe in that? Well, to a degree, maybe. But you're more adventurous.
- [56:38]
David Cronenberg
Yeah, I'm pretty lazy. For me, it's really a matter of being lazy, actually. I really go more for comfort than fashion or look. I have seven tuxedos. Why do I have a seven tuxedo? Because I've been given them. Anytime that you're in the red carpet in Cannes because you have a film competition, you're going to have designers offer you a tuxedo for your red carpet appearance. So I have Prada, I have Zegna, I have Armani and Saint Laurent. But I wear them once and I appreciate the beauty of them and the way, way that they're made. So I think I can appreciate fashion without actually partaking of it. You know, I don't feel the need to do that. As I say, I'm very impressed by people who can take, you know, I think it's lovely and it's fun and it's. And as a creative way of expressing things about yourself. But it's not, it's not something that I'm. I've ever been really obsessed with or. And so I am lazy and. Yeah, I mean, it usually comes down to. I hate to say this, whether I'm going to wear sweatpants or blue jeans. I was thinking about that today. Should I really do this or should I. My brother in law lives in Newfoundland where Newfoundland is a place, it's very rustic, it's on the Atlantic, it's seaboard, it's full of forests and stuff. It's a big island. And he says when I talk to him about putting jeans on or he said, well, on Newfoundland that would be considered formal wear. So I often think of that by going for the formal wear that is my jeans or am I just going to go for my normal wear, which is my sweatpants? That's pretty much it. Quite boring, I'm afraid. But it just seems natural to me.
- [59:01]
Host
I must say, because the Shrouds was produced by Saint Laurent, Anthony Vaccarello and you did a shoot wearing all Saint Laurent. You look really good in those outfits and you didn't seem to disappear from yourself when you were wearing.
- [59:17]
David Cronenberg
Well, I, I am an actor. I have. I am a professional actor. I belong to actra, the guild, the Actors Guild in Canada. So I can perform clothes. I mean, I can clean up okay, really. And if someone is giving me interesting clothes to wear as Saint Laurent did, I can perform those clothes because I can get into it as an actor, basically. But I don't. I feel that I'm playing a role, right. Which is, I suppose, what people do when they are going out and they decide on a particular outfit that maybe is extreme or is expressing something. They are also performing their clothes. So I am capable of doing that. Yes. And I wouldn't say no to doing that under certain circumstances because it's playful, for one thing. I understand the playfulness of it and I can certainly get into that.
- [60:21]
Host
Have you ever walked in a fashion show?
- [60:24]
David Cronenberg
I have not done the walk of a fashion shoot or show, but I have attended Saint Laurent, invested in the Shrouds as Their co producers. And I've been invited to a couple of their shows. And of course, I wore their clothes when I have some. They've given me some very lovely clothes just as a gift. And I been a Saint Laurent model, as a matter of fact, because they. Jim Jarmusch and Abel Ferreira and Pedro Almodovo, and I appeared on big, you know, billboards in Paris, on the bus stops and so, on the bus shelters and so on. I joked with Jim Jarmusch that we would see him on the, you know, we would go down the Runway together. Of course, we never did, but that's as close to a model as I've been. And it, you know, it felt okay. I mean, I think it's a matter of ageism. You know, I think having models who are not kids but are like, old is quite okay, can make a point. So it seemed to work for them, and it certainly was fun for me.
- [61:54]
Host
They were great photos. I love that campaign. It was fantastic. And do you think if you had to walk for anyone, who would you choose?
- [62:05]
David Cronenberg
Oh, well, that's difficult to say. I mean, I don't want to insult anybody, because I love that. I mean, I've actually done a short film for the Prada Foundation. This is not a matter of the fashion, but it's a matter of. Prada has a foundation where they have supported the creation of some short films. So I've done a film for them, which I guess you can access on their website. So I feel some creative connection to production, Prada that way, and also to Saint Laurent, of course, because of the shrouds. So probably I would be happy to be doing something with either one of those houses.
- [62:53]
Host
And I wondered, how do you feel about being naked? Or is there something that you need to wear in order to be naked?
- [63:00]
David Cronenberg
As such, I have discovered that I'm completely comfortable being naked. And I discovered this with some relationships with some women who have been kind of shocked that I would walk around naked, including in front of windows and so on, and have accused me of being an exhibitionist, when in fact, it's just I hadn't even thought twice about it. It just seemed very natural under the those circumstances to walk around naked, completely naked. And, and I, I really, I feel very good and very comfortable doing that. I think I always have, actually. And for example, swimming naked to me is the way to go. I hate having a bathing suit on that gets wet and flops around. Or I, I, I prefer to swim naked to, to, to wearing anything in the water. And I have to say bellow that I feel looking in the mirror, that I look naked quite a bit like your father when he. In his full length, the famous portrait of himself naked with the palette in one hand and the palette knife, I think, in the other hand and the print, I actually kind of look like that. So there's even that naked connection really between what your father was doing vis a vis himself and what at least I see in the mirror myself.
- [64:39]
Host
He's wearing the boots in his painting, so he's not totally naked. And I always find I just can't be completely naked unless only when I'm making the bed. Otherwise I need to wear something in order to be naked. Total nudity is. Unless I was sitting for that painting on that book there. It's just too much. And swimming naked is like. Is like going back to being in the womb. Not that I obviously remember any. It's so extreme and so wild. So, yeah, I obviously kind of afraid of that.
- [65:22]
David Cronenberg
No, I revel in it, actually. And I think being completely naked, but you're wearing slippers is. No, you'd have to have bare feet. Really need to be totally naked. Of course, it depends on what you're walking on.
- [65:37]
Host
Yeah.
- [65:37]
David Cronenberg
But yeah, yeah, it's. It's almost something I don't even think twice about, actually.
- [65:46]
Host
Yeah. I liked it when Kate Moss said she had to wear a heel when she was naked.
- [65:51]
David Cronenberg
Oh, yes, I saw that.
- [65:52]
Host
It was so good.
- [65:54]
David Cronenberg
I would be interested in wearing heels naked, I must say, but I'm not sure that I could really bring it off. I. I have balance problems as I get older, so I don't think. I think I'm past the heels phase. It's a. It's a terrible thing that I. I have to give up the potential of that. But for me to be naked wearing high heels, Maybe Louboutin. Yeah, I should try that. I should try that.
- [66:22]
Host
Thank you so much, David, for being on Fashion Neurosis. It's been riveting.
- [66:28]
David Cronenberg
Well, I'm really delighted to be here and to now be counted among your many, many patient's doctor. I'm sure we're all much better for it. Thank you.
- [66:59]
Host
Today's show is brought to you by Anthropic, the team behind Claude. Every conversation we have reveals something unexpected expected about fashion identity and culture. If today's discussion left you with questions you can't shake about someone's fashion influence, a cultural moment, or why certain pieces feel so charged with meaning, Claude can be that thinking partner who helps you follow those threads wherever they lead. Try Claude for free@claude aifashionneurosis.